Integrity

[Jendayi]

i haven't forgotten ulli... bill has done amazing things for the betterment of humanity... bill is indeed a pioneer and i have great respect for him... however.. he is as much human as the rest of us.. prone to mistakes, egoism and poor judgement... i believe avalon has it's function and it is a noble one indeed... however, myself am allready starting to feel the limitations of what is possible here... but hey, that's me.. most people (even the very awake ones) find me pretty "out there" but i can't help it.. i wish to be limitless and all i can be... avalon is a stepping stone along this journey... i am starting to see the next step... avalon (for me at least) was a necessary step in this process.. i cherish the time i have spent here and the lovely people i have interacted with...
many pm's have been exchanged and beautiful threads have arisen... one thing though.. i will not go into details but i have approached Bill on several occasions, both in threads and via PM, he has never responded to my questions and only quoted me once while not really answering my questions... i have been open with him, shared my life's story and asked if he could shed some light on it as i felt he could because of synchronistic events at the time.. when i openly and honestly approach someone i expect at least a response... did not get any.. i do not judge, Bill probably had good reasons which i respect and on which i can only speculate.. which is something i refuse to do.. it does, however, have consequences for my being here...
i wish to work together with people that are able to move beyond the current paradigm... who see beyond personalities, faces and opinions... there are few of these people indeed...

ulli, i have saved some lives in my time as well.. and in that moment i "saved" someone i was a "good" person but trust me... i am not always this virtuous... and neither is anyone...
we are life savers, and we are judges, we can be saints or demons.. it all depends on the given moment we are in...
many "bad" people do good things and vice versa.... Big time criminals don't hesitate to kill an enemy but love their mothers like none other.. american soldiers will kill babies in iraq but don't dare touch their own kids... hell, even hitler performed some pretty heroic stuff in WWI where he saved many of his fellow soldiers in the trenches, only to become one of the most hated characters in earth history... so IMHO, to safe a life does not mean you are of sound integrity all the time, it means you where present in that moment and made a difference and that in it self is a beautiful thing...
one indeed does not have to give up their ideals when there is a fork in the road... however, to be able to move forward a choice has to be made which way to go...
i respect your post and your being... thank you!
namaste..

[Flash]

Posted by Gaia (here)
I do get what he is saying about Integrity. I'm certain that the primary energy that drives Bill Ryan is received messages from people who now see their lives in totally different ways ! And the purpose of Avalon forum is to provide to the visitors the right tools to help them, sending the right message at the right time and finally providing high quality information and contents. I would like to see a subforum that the public could not see to discuss members who are banned.

Since we are talking about integrity and from what I have read in all the posts on this thread, I came to a multi-level understanding of problems that may arise that are sometimes not, in fact, related to integrity but are confounded with it.

1. Integrity is being true towards oneself first and relaying it outward in the world. Integrity should, in my idea, be throughout one's being and therefore about what we write on the forum as well as what we write in PM. Making nice on open forum and telling someone in PM to shut up because what they say is, in one's opinion, not intelligent, is not, in my idea, integrity. It is trying to shut up someone else's opinion, the impact being to take away the taste for that one to contribute. It is a power game.

Same if ones says something positive on this Avalon's forum and something negative on the same topic on other forums. Where is integrity then?

2. Levels and judgments: Being at different levels: once one says that, judgment and evaluations usually start. It has nothing to do with being in fact on different frequencies, it has to do with evaluating that one is better than the other (as per my comment above as well). And there Mondaze has a point:

i have the feeling that this venerable forum is becoming a cult. if that is the case i didn't sign up to join a cult. To view the panarama of existence one has to be free to experience at all levels, and not be constrained by dogma. If this view treads on anyone's toes i'm truly sorry.

When judgment starts happening as one individual being better than others, one group better than others, manipulation/power game starts and therefore cultish behavior. I like it when someone protest and challenges Bill, albeit gently and with respect, because it allows to avoid this group cultish behaviour. Same for all kind of judgments, judging one people compared with another one (remember the thread on how stupid Americans are, some Americans here on the forum were rightfully distraught, or other comments on other nationalities as being racists for example, or comments on individual or group caracteristics - reasons for behavior are often as numerous as the number of people behaving).

Being plainly on different frequencies is an acceptance of the others as they are and of the fact that their ways are different than mine for example and that I have problems staying on the thinking/behavior they are at, respecting myself as well. It is an acknowledgment of reality with acceptance of diversity.

[U]Here acceptance and tolerance are the key words: acceptance, respect and tolerance of diversity - diversity of values, of beliefs, of cultures, of behaviours, of languages, name it. I must say that this forum is a training ground for the planet - if we don't get this part here, who will on earth?[/U]

This is about what Jendayi says

we are a freaky bunch indeed... i forgive any and all who have done me "wrong" and ask forgiveness for when i was not where i was expected to be... to forgive my actions is more about you then it is about me... i don't need your forgiveness.. you do... all is well...

3. Communication: A common problem that I have seen here on this forum is about communication. We may be at the same frequency than others but it cannot come across for some reason.

It could come from cultural subtleties misunderstood and mainly unconscious, or from languages difficulties due to different mothertongues (all the numerous members who's first language is not English have harder time to come across - I always revise my posts 3-4 times before and after posting - look at the bottom, it is always edited). For example, for God Sake, explain to me once and for all what a troll is and what he does. Even for the simple acronym "IMHO" it took me a while to understand what it meant - I have learned more English slang here than ever before in my life. I wonder how our poor Chinese are doing with it. - On the cultural side I had to ask around about Australian culture - not understanding some of what seemed to me "impetuous" behavior of some members. But no blame on nobody, we decided to participate to a forum in English and we live with it. Same applies for someone having languages difficulties such as dysphasia.

Then there is all the different abilities in communication as such, some have the nack for it, some don't. This has to be respected as well. I saw some wonderful intellingent posts, or some out of this world extraordinay posts with communication skills that were difficult to follow. I enjoyed nevertheless, without judgment or by going slow in reacting, understanding that communication may be hardeous.

We do have to be tolerant and not jump negatively to conclusion about someone's else opinon without asking first what it is about. Tolerance about diversity is essential IMHO. This includes tolerance about diversity in communication skills. It implies respect.

This means always having in the back of one's mind that our interpretation may not be what the author had in mind - and verify it with the author before jumping.

In conclusion, I do not entirely have the same views as Gaia

provide to the visitors the right tools to help them, sending the right message at the right time and finally providing high quality information and contents

is wishfull, a nice target, but not always realistic in view of diversity. Some of the tools could involve extensive teaching/knowledge in communication, which is not really feasible on a forum IMHO. It may as well not be entirely desirable either, imperfection being perfect as a part of the whole of humanity. Therefore, tolerance and acceptance of diversity. We have to live with it man!!

Nobody wakes up in the morning saying "Today I will do the worst I can" (except for my ex husband this is a joke hey!). Usually, for most people, intentions are positive.

Integrity = being true to oneself. Intention is what drives us. Love is what saves us.(my post seems too long to me..... I don't know what to take off and still convey the message)

[SEAM]

What Bill just said... Unfortunately I can only hit the "Thanks" button once... I was going to say it for you.. yours was much less edgier...

Thanks for pursuing the proper ballist... and I commend you for that seemingly "Thankless" task, slash necessity....

"One (or 5) bad apple DOES, spoil the whole bunch girl"

[Flash]

Posted by Jendayi (here)
i haven't forgotten ulli... bill has done amazing things for the betterment of humanity... bill is indeed a pioneer and i have great respect for him... however.. he is as much human as the rest of us.. prone to mistakes, egoism and poor judgement... i believe avalon has it's function and it is a noble one indeed... however, myself am allready starting to feel the limitations of what is possible here... but hey, that's me.. most people (even the very awake ones) find me pretty "out there" but i can't help it.. i wish to be limitless and all i can be... avalon is a stepping stone along this journey... i am starting to see the next step... avalon (for me at least) was a necessary step in this process.. i cherish the time i have spent here and the lovely people i have interacted with...
many pm's have been exchanged and beautiful threads have arisen... one thing though.. i will not go into details but i have approached Bill on several occasions, both in threads and via PM, he has never responded to my questions and only quoted me once while not really answering my questions... i have been open with him, shared my life's story and asked if he could shed some light on it as i felt he could because of synchronistic events at the time.. when i openly and honestly approach someone i expect at least a response... did not get any.. i do not judge, Bill probably had good reasons which i respect and on which i can only speculate.. which is something i refuse to do.. it does, however, have consequences for my being here...
i wish to work together with people that are able to move beyond the current paradigm... who see beyond personalities, faces and opinions... there are few of these people indeed...

ulli, i have saved some lives in my time as well.. and in that moment i "saved" someone i was a "good" person but trust me... i am not always this virtuous... and neither is anyone...
we are life savers, and we are judges, we can be saints or demons.. it all depends on the given moment we are in...
many "bad" people do good things and vice versa.... Big time criminals don't hesitate to kill an enemy but love their mothers like none other.. american soldiers will kill babies in iraq but don't dare touch their own kids... hell, even hitler performed some pretty heroic stuff in WWI where he saved many of his fellow soldiers in the trenches, only to become one of the most hated characters in earth history... so IMHO, to safe a life does not mean you are of sound integrity all the time, it means you where present in that moment and made a difference and that in it self is a beautiful thing...
one indeed does not have to give up their ideals when there is a fork in the road... however, to be able to move forward a choice has to be made which way to go...
i respect your post and your being... thank you!
namaste..

A teacher of mine (he knows what he practices, he does not teach what he does not do - referring to one of your post) said last week: "stop trying to be good, striving to be good is not being evolved spiritually". Shocking, not what I learned in religion classes when I was small. He had some little explaining to do - and me some understanding to reach - and he said "evolving spiritually is total knowledge of oneself, total acceptance of oneself, total forgiveness of oneself, finally no judgments, and then comes love/wisdom flowing through, this is liberation". He added up that we all have what seems to be tremendous faults, and all this is a wonderfull game we are learning to play. "Reality is elsewhere, beyond" he added - yes another vibration, frequency.

Welcome to the club Jendayi.

[Jendayi]

@ Flash:
glad to be a member of a club that has no name!!!!

[buffski]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=f9tqC7hfeKk

[jorr lundstrom]

Posted by Jendayi (here)
@ Flash:
glad to be a member of a club that has no name!!!!

Wot about ordinary humans?

[Billy]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-----

It's about principles, and respect, and positive agendas, and how we communicate, and whether we're being the change we want to see in the world.
I'd like to discuss this more later, because I think it's both subtle and important. But for the moment, this is an important post. I do welcome all views and perspectives.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

Respect with compassion always works well. Bless you all

[ulli]

Everybody is right, all the views above are true.
But what about context?
And what about consequence?

We either get Bill's point or we don't.

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Flash (here)
Here acceptance and tolerance are the key words: acceptance, respect and tolerance of diversity - diversity of values, of beliefs, of cultures, of behaviours, of languages, name it. I must say that this forum is a training ground for the planet - if we don't get this part here, who will on earth?

Bravo, Flash! This cuts to the heart of the matter. There may be a BIG problem here on Avalon where integrity and tolerance clash.

This post of Bill's on "Integrity" really needs to be seen in context, and that context cannot be seen without hearing the voices of those Avalon members that have been recently banned. With that context, the reasons behind Bill’s post become more visible.

I have a great deal of respect for Bill, but my own sense of integrity requires me to present the following "speculation" based on what I've learned from the banned members. I do this without malice towards Bill, and with the best interests of Avalon in mind, in the hopes of finding a solution to this very real problem. I also do this at the risk of being banned myself, which is something I do not desire. I'm sure many of the whistle-blowers Bill and Kerry have brought before us have felt the same thing, but were also obliged to speak out because of personal integrity.

Speculation: Bill is using the ideas of "ownership", "integrity", and "separation" to justify his actions of intolerance and non-acceptance that are resulting in the increasingly common unsubscribing of Avalon members.

1. Bill "owns" the Avalon forum. He models this public forum as a private club. Bill emphatically reserves the right to dismiss anyone for any reason at any time. The separation is sudden, complete, and final. There is no oversight or review of this power. As we all know, there is the very real risk of corruption when power like this is reserved to a single person.

2. The rationalization that Bill makes for removing Avalon members is that he is acting with integrity by following the ground rules he himself has laid out. The human legal system has sunk into this same trap, where the law is manipulated to legalize unjust actions. At the same time, the condemned Avalon members stand accused of lacking integrity, but they are given no recourse to any defense whatsoever.

3. A further rationalization is that the process of separation is occurring all over the world, so it must be OK to participate in it. We all know that separation is part of the "divide and conquer" strategy used by the controllers to subdue humanity. Avalon, like humanity, should be uniting, not separating.

I would encourage other Avalon members to act in the original spirit of Project Camelot and look into all sides of this issue, not just Bill’s side. The integrity of Avalon is at stake. As Flash points out, if we can’t solve this problem here, what chance does humanity have?

[T Smith]

Posted by Davidallany (here)

In connection with this, there's a kind of 'separation' happening. I can see it all around. I even talked about this with Kerry two years ago, and since then it has gradually intensified and amplified. You can see it in the YouTube comments on any alternative video you care to pick at random

I haven't seen anything like it before, but it is true. I can't put my finger on it exactly but I believe that it has to do with frequencies or vibrations.

Deloras Cannon's hypothesis comes to mind...

[Arpheus]

There is a hidden hand behind all the actions that are being taken as of recently and only the blind cannot and will not see it,and that's all i have to say about this ,i agree with just about every word you wrote chico.

[Jendayi]

Posted by jorr lundstrom (here)

Posted by Jendayi (here)
@ Flash:
glad to be a member of a club that has no name!!!!

Wot about ordinary humans?

i am an ordinary human! don't know if i have an ordinary way of thinking though...

[Jendayi]

@ chicidoodoo:
your way with words and your insights keep astounding me.. well said brother! (may i call you brother?)

[Jendayi]

Posted by billyji (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-----

It's about principles, and respect, and positive agendas, and how we communicate, and whether we're being the change we want to see in the world.
I'd like to discuss this more later, because I think it's both subtle and important. But for the moment, this is an important post. I do welcome all views and perspectives.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

Respect with compassion always works well. Bless you all

every single time i see this it brings tears of wonder to my eyes... it leaves me with a lump in my throat... and i have a little crush on that amazing woman... the tone of her voice when she speaks at the end sends beautiful shivers down my spine... thank you for exposing me to this once again... i am touched beyond words by this... it is so true!!! thank you....
namaste

[Sierra]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Sierra (here)
They were kicked off Avalon for pretty serious offenses.

No offense Chic but I'd rather not go through that again.

What we are seeing now may be different. People may be getting the boot for political or ideological reasons, which are not serious offenses. I just learned that Modwiz and Goldenyears have been unsubscribed:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...rtas-and-stuff

This is rather shocking to me, as I don't recall ever seeing any bad behavior from these two on the forum.

And no offense taken.

Thanks Chic I am glad I have not offended you.

Well I did my homework read the "Magna Carta" thread... then trotted over to Nexus to read a little. Honestly Chic, nothing seems to have changed over there. I don't know why ModWiz and GoldenYears were kicked off. I don't know what happened in the PMs. I do know when I first visited Nexus at the time Richard and Celine were kicked off, the credibility gap between what they were saying had happened and what I actually read on the Avalon forums caused me to throw up my hands utterly at a loss to reconcile the two versions of reality.

I don't see much change at the Nexus site now. Still intently focused on Avalon rather than moving on and doing their thing. Why don't they do their own thing? Is bitching about Avalon really a constructive or evolutionary behavior? Is saying one thing on Avalon and then saying the opposite on Nexus display integrity? I just don't get it that people can't see that people can see their own lack of congruence! This is sycophantic behavior on not one but TWO websites lol!

To say oh but that is not fair that Bill held me accountable for what I said at Nexus is specious considering what was being said over there was actually about Bill and Inelia. Do I see anyone bashing Celine and Richard over here at Avalon? NO. … er maybe just me a little with the heaving bosoms …

Why WOULD you tolerate a backstabber in your own home or private forum? Someone who mocked and insulted you and your significant other? I do believe Richard unilaterally and in a foul mouthed temper, kicked someone off Avalon for attacking his wife. To now point the finger at Bill for protecting his woman regardless of her self defense capabilities … (Oh Gawd I cannot believe I said "his woman", nausea and no heaving bosoms cooing and trilling here trust me).

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry that ModWiz and GoldenYears are hurting and upset and I would smooth healing balm on their wounds if I could. But you know… statistically and eventually someone *IS* going to respond to the bash rather than the coo if you are exhibiting dualistic behavior and to draw back in hurt martyrdom, well you said what you said, didn’t you? This is not disagreeing respectfully with someone’s position is it?

I would also offer the same comfort to Inelia, who has got to be just as hurt at people bashing her for what ... beginning a relationship with Bill? Being interviewed? Causing a man happily in love to speak out loud of his admiration and affection? What? One Nexus poster made a comment about it is getting too “feminist” over here? Huh? WTF? What the hell does feminism have to do with this devolutionary behavior? (Oh. I just answered my own question, its devolutionary behavior.) Damn those feminists are taking up half the planet lol yes and by George us feministic males and females plan to make some MORE changes around here and we’re not going to quit until we the human race are in BALANCE! Sez Mother Earth and the divine feminine <evil grin>.

This is a stagnant event spiraling around again for resolution. A sure sign of being off the path out of the zone and the record is skipping back to the point of dissonance skipping back to the point of dissonance skipping back to the point of dissonance… and you know what? Maybe in 2011 it is no longer a spiral but a decision point, a snapshot of position at the decision point, a separation of intent, in which case we might as well let it go Chic and focus on where we want to be in our evolution at that point rather than where we want someone else to be. No one is going to change anyone's opinion. But it sure would be nice if we had two websites doing their thing helping all us humans along with the truth of our shared reality instead of one website bashing another to death. Family. Snort.

[jjl]

thankyou is not enough

[Jake]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Flash (here)
Here acceptance and tolerance are the key words: acceptance, respect and tolerance of diversity - diversity of values, of beliefs, of cultures, of behaviours, of languages, name it. I must say that this forum is a training ground for the planet - if we don't get this part here, who will on earth?

Bravo, Flash! This cuts to the heart of the matter. There may be a BIG problem here on Avalon where integrity and tolerance clash.

This post of Bill's on "Integrity" really needs to be seen in context, and that context cannot be seen without hearing the voices of those Avalon members that have been recently banned. With that context, the reasons behind Bill’s post become more visible.

I have a great deal of respect for Bill, but my own sense of integrity requires me to present the following "speculation" based on what I've learned from the banned members. I do this without malice towards Bill, and with the best interests of Avalon in mind, in the hopes of finding a solution to this very real problem. I also do this at the risk of being banned myself, which is something I do not desire. I'm sure many of the whistle-blowers Bill and Kerry have brought before us have felt the same thing, but were also obliged to speak out because of personal integrity.

Speculation: Bill is using the ideas of "ownership", "integrity", and "separation" to justify his actions of intolerance and non-acceptance that are resulting in the increasingly common unsubscribing of Avalon members.

1. Bill "owns" the Avalon forum. He models this public forum as a private club. Bill emphatically reserves the right to dismiss anyone for any reason at any time. The separation is sudden, complete, and final. There is no oversight or review of this power. As we all know, there is the very real risk of corruption when power like this is reserved to a single person.

2. The rationalization that Bill makes for removing Avalon members is that he is acting with integrity by following the ground rules he himself has laid out. The human legal system has sunk into this same trap, where the law is manipulated to legalize unjust actions. At the same time, the condemned Avalon members stand accused of lacking integrity, but they are given no recourse to any defense whatsoever.

3. A further rationalization is that the process of separation is occurring all over the world, so it must be OK to participate in it. We all know that separation is part of the "divide and conquer" strategy used by the controllers to subdue humanity. Avalon, like humanity, should be uniting, not separating.

I would encourage other Avalon members to act in the original spirit of Project Camelot and look into all sides of this issue, not just Bill’s side. The integrity of Avalon is at stake. As Flash points out, if we can’t solve this problem here, what chance does humanity have?

Chicodoodoo, thank you for your continued support of Bill and Avalon. With respect:

1) We have an entire team of decent folks who review infractions and act accordingly. Bill, quite frankly, does not have the time to review every post. Your concern regarding corruption when placed in the hands of a single person, should NOT apply to Avalon, as moderating the forum is a group effort. And we try everything we can before folks are asked to leave. Furthermore, Have you looked into what it takes to be 'invited' into the community these days? We take a lot of care to promote the type of environment that people have come to respect from Bill Ryan and Project Avalon.

2) "The law is manipulated to legalize unjust actions." That is quite a stretch. I am not sure that comment can be justified. Asking someone to leave the forum is not condemnation. Simply put, some posting styles are better suited for other forums. Nobody stands accused of anything. This is not a court of law.

3) The aforementioned process of separation was never meant to imply that there is a divide between Bill and Avalonians. Rather a suggestion of a powerful new direction that Avalon is taking. The direction is FORWARD. He is talking about the ideals of people and their respective goals. If you want to characterize the retiring of a few members as 'divided and conquered' that is fine. You are wrong, but that is fine. I do not disrespect you for your opinion. This is not a witch hunt. There are a so many more new people here with amazing minds. Try getting to know some of them.

The integrity of Avalon is NOT at stake. Avalon is as strong as ever. Best regards, Jake.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I'm watching this thread move like a wave. It started becoming cathartic movement and then started sinking into "he said this, they did that", which I don't think was the purpose of the thread.

It seems that there is a difference of opinion as to what Avalon is. I saw this alot when the drama went down a few months ago. The concept that this is a private forum supporting a private goal is just bouncing off some people. Especially when people are here for a longer period of time and give their own time and energy to the project. There is a sense of entitlement and a sense that there is an inherent right to be here. There is an almost demand that the forum be run in a legalistic, transparent, democratic, and "fair" way with consensus from the members. from this perception comes the feelings of injustice which still linger months after the big hoopla. There is no inherent right to transparency as regards to mod decisions. The members of Avalon are not here to act as a "check" on the powers of the mod team or Bill. There is no "jury of your peers" and legal due process.

If you don't like it, move along. there are plenty of places to be. Quit whining about it.

If you do not know the difference between healthy dissension and sedition, please go train on that. Start here http://www.cnvc.org/

To me, Avalon is partially created by the intention vibration of those who participate in it. If I am running a project and people are participating in it, but are meanwhile bad mouthing it and slandering me elsewhere, well that's a no brainer that they don't belong with the project. Their intention energy is misaligned with the project. It's NOT personal. It's just energies aligning and frequencies stratifying.

This is Bill's show. That doesn't make it a "cult". Bill has always said that he sees himself as a coach, not a leader, but when people are not holding the vibrational integrity which is core to the project, then what exactly is the point of their participation? Participation is not an inherent right!

And another thing. Bill is involved with projects that most of you know nothing about (Nor do you have any special right to). I'm surprised he has time to come here at all, let alone answer individual pm's and emails. Don't take that personally.

[T Smith]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)
I would say Avalon is a great forum, with much credit due to Bill Ryan, but those that might offer a dissenting opinion to mine no longer have a voice here. It would be useful if all members that were dismissed had the opportunity to leave a final post. I bet that would be quite an interesting thread as well as a valuable learning tool for everyone.

I concur wholeheartedly with this suggestion. And while I intuit a collective "sigh" from the Mods, perhaps the most constructive aspect of this suggestion is that it would allow for an exploration of the phenomenon of dissonance Bill describes, and which he also admits he does not fully understand. If there is something happening here, and others seem to concur there is, it would be helpful to examine it. What's going on inside Avalon may represent a microcosm of some universal phenomenon taking place that is very much worthy of our reflection.