Chemtrails don't exist

[Dennis Leahy]

Please, folks, have a heated, passionate debate, fire away at ideas, but not at each other. I can personally handle the sparring, and chose to let the stuff naming me roll off me, but please stop short of ad hominems. It's impossible to know how sensitive any one individual is to being named in a post, so just stick to attacking positions and concepts and ideas and not individuals. Cool?

Dennis

[Amer]

So what can be done here?
Meditation is a good option to strengthen your inner energies
In my opinion, our conscious being is stronger than all of this.
No matter what, we must strengthen our hearts to lead us correctly
The mind and our senses can deeply fool us, as well with all this controversy and information tugging at us from different directions.
In the end i am also confused at times when i reason with my mind.
opinions anybody?

You might find some answers in the Enlightenment thread - I'm still struggling with dry and wet bulb temperatures

[Eikoor21]

Yes i agree with Dennis, the potential we have to acknowledge and speculate about these things are great
but we should have utter respect and love for each other.
Because if we don't we make ourselves regress to a state of ignorance
that I'm sure we are all trying to overcome and to go beyond of.
lets grow together not apart.

-Great love

[fox.mulder]

Well there is one way to put this all to rest. Someone has to fly up into a "Con/Chem Trail" and take a sample. Simple really.

The Truth Is Out (or up) There.........

[T Smith]

Posted by fox.mulder (here)
Well there is one way to put this all to rest. Someone has to fly up into a "Con/Chem Trail" and take a sample. Simple really.

The Truth Is Out (or up) There.........

I believe this has already been done. See carnicom.com

[Fred259]

Posted by john.d (here)
Im fairly sure its not atmospheric pressure because as i was watching the planes today leaving a mess in the sky , i also watched planes with normal contrails . Surely that blows the argument out of the window . And by the way Fred , i think your rude and arrogant . There is no need for it either . People are entitled to their opinions , and i for one dont agree with yours .
John

John, ,,, We have high pressure at the moment and the atmosphere is such that these contrails will form. It’s been the same here in Scotland all day, indeed probably by the same aircraft that you noticed as well, but as I said earlier it’s a clear sky tonight. Believe me they aren’t spraying you.

As for your comment about being rude if you look back on the thread I had just posted up documents detailing all this to reassure you and others about all the misinformation that abounds, and yet you obviously choose to ignore them which is fair enough,…I wont bother in future…

John… Ive just passed your thread again, it’s perfectly normal to have long contrails short contrails and no contrails all in the same sky. It happens all the time, but if you see a big thick trail I honestly swear on the bible that he is not spraying you…seriously this just does not happen….

[Amer]

Posted by Fred259
Go sit in your back garden in the deckchair with your sunglasses on and study the clouds for thirty minutes. They are pushing and shoving rising and falling inside those clouds these two lines are being modified as you watch them just think of the red and green lines from the chart, the cloud forms at one place and dissipates in another part of the sky. This is nature in the living atmosphere

"Contrail formation/dissipation and cloud formation are to be recognized as two separate physical processes resulting from differing conditions and variables for each. It is important that any analysis of these two processes be appropriately and separately understood before any mutual connection is to be made" from Clifford Carnicom

[Fred259]

Posted by T Smith (here)

Posted by Fred259 (here)
No these are contrails. I have spent the last two weeks trying to share this with the forum, by way of scientific documents explications photographs etc People aren’t really interested, and frankly Im beginning to think they want something to worry about. I don’t really see any further point in sharing this with the systemically fragile.

I've read the posts. They just were not convincing... to me. I'm not so much worried about it as I am interested at getting to the truth.

This is the truth..
From my personal observation:

I've seen two planes in the same sky and roughly at the same altitude. One plane emits a trail that dissapates and the other a trial that expands and lingers. If there is some explanation of a contrail emitting from both of these aircraft, I'm very open to hearing it.

Yes this is normal, it depends on the state of the atmosphere and the relative humidity at that altitude.

Think of it like this.

You drive down a road in winter and enter a fog bank, then it’s clear for one mile, then another fog bank, then clear for one mile, then another fog bank…

So what is happening is when you are in the fog the relative humidity of the atmosphere is 100% and this is what’s caused the fog.

When you are driving in the clear the relative humidity of the atmosphere is less than 100% say 80%. This is the reasons it’s clear.

Precisely the same happens in the upper atmosphere if the relative humidity is 100% clouds and contrails will form. Always.

If the relative humidity is less than 100% say 80% clouds and contrails won’t form. Ever.

[Fred259]

Posted by Amer (here)

Posted by Fred259
Go sit in your back garden in the deckchair with your sunglasses on and study the clouds for thirty minutes. They are pushing and shoving rising and falling inside those clouds these two lines are being modified as you watch them just think of the red and green lines from the chart, the cloud forms at one place and dissipates in another part of the sky. This is nature in the living atmosphere

"Contrail formation/dissipation and cloud formation are to be recognized as two separate physical processes resulting from differing conditions and variables for each. It is important that any analysis of these two processes be appropriately and separately understood before any mutual connection is to be made" from Clifford Carnicom

Yes he is right, he is right in what he is saying here.

Contrails are formed by exhaust mostly water being ejected into the atmosphere and forming a contrail. This trail will be made up of ice crystals. In the winds they will dissipate slowly into cirrus clouds thin and wispy. Contrails are the product of combustion and so man made.

Cirrus clouds are also made of ice crystals, however these have occurred because the atmosphere at that altitude is 100% supersaturated causing the cloud to form by nature.

Cirrus clouds are generally few and far between and when the contrails dissipate they mix with the naturally made cirrus. He is trying to make that distinction. I would agree with him.

[Fred259]

Posted by Some Bloke (here)
Oh yeah, just thought I might repost this, chem and con trails separating , saw this and dashed for my camera,
Attachment 7151

Well we discussed this. You say that’s what they are doing, because you have been misinformed. Maybe if you take it to your local airline company and ask them what’s going on.

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello Fred,

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions but I would like to counteract your statements on this thread:

David Icke, Alex Jones and Stewart Swerdlow don’t know what they are talking about.
[...]
If they persist in publishing this rubbish I’m calling them out as part of the problem and puppets for the New World Order.
[...]
Integrity, and clear thinking are critical with these criminals.
[...]
But no longer because having read the documents you will now be educated, and in so doing the people who try to control you dont win, you are smarter than them, Icke & Jones included!

These are public attacks on people that have done a lot of research work and do not deserve to be called criminals or NWO puppets.

They may get some of their information wrong, but so can you.

Just for the record, I completely disagree with the quoted comments and I believe I am not alone in doing that.


And just for everyone to see what Dennis is talking about:


source


source


source


source

So, yes, aircraft have some means to spray chemical stuff from the air .

[Fred259]

Posted by Some Bloke (here)
This is a photo of stuff falling out of the sky following two weeks of 'trailing just prior to the harvest,
Attachment 7150

“Stuff Falling from the Sky” . I agree………very important and something I think the forum should know, so I will prepare a post with an explanation and provide documents.. this is important…

[Fred259]

Posted by Ilie Pandia (here)
Hello Fred,

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions but I would like to counteract your statements on this thread:

David Icke, Alex Jones and Stewart Swerdlow don’t know what they are talking about.
[...]
If they persist in publishing this rubbish I’m calling them out as part of the problem and puppets for the New World Order.
[...]
Integrity, and clear thinking are critical with these criminals.
[...]
But no longer because having read the documents you will now be educated, and in so doing the people who try to control you dont win, you are smarter than them, Icke & Jones included!

These are public attacks on people that have done a lot of research work and do not deserve to be called criminals or NWO puppets.

No they have not done research work, if they had they wouldn’t be publishing these mistruths.

I did not call them criminals, I think if you look again I was talking about the NWO who are criminals in my view.

They may get some of their information wrong, but so can you.

Indeed, but I make sure Im certain of the facts before I post. I want to say something else about this below.

Just for the record, I completely disagree with the quoted comments and I believe I am not alone in doing that.

I can fully understand you disagree. I was most disappointed to see them publishing this continual nonsense. I also feel let down by them, but time will tell.

Separately and O/T, You were making in my view irresponsible comments about the US engaging in an act of war against China ! How do you know that? Its not just a minor comment Ilie don’t you think you have a responsibility as well? Do you think people were reassured by your comment or otherwise..

[Fred259]

Posted by Gardener (here)
Here's my take on the chemtrails, purely based on observation.
For a long time I simply didn't believe there was anything more sinister than these were 'aeroplane exhaust trails'. What I failed to grasp was this is a new phenomena so why do we get these very long non dispersing trails criss-crossing the sky?

Fact 1. We never used to get them until late 70's/ early 80's. Why?
Fact 2. Even in high pressure conditions.
Fact 3. They have specific patterning, lot of lines but only usually one specific A shape. (the dispersant?)

Fred, the level of passion in your posts is palpable, in fact, to me it doesn't even sound like 'you'.

Personally even though I listen to and read 'official stuff' I realise there is always a lot of spinola, it is usually to justify the funding for the enquiry or research, not the truth as we would like to hear it. I have done a lot of statistical research and I know how easy it is for data to be skewed for a miriad of reasons. Even the simple 'research question' may be way off even experimenter bias. Personal perception is often coloured by experience so my observations of chemtrails may be biased also. As may yours of the document you strongly promote.

g

I would agree they were not so pronounced. Traffic volume has increase dramatically over the last forty years. In the 1970s Stanstead didn’t exist, now they talk about building another runway to meet demand, or were.

Manchester Airport only had one runway now it has two. I think Gardener the same could be said for the M1 what was the traffic in the 1970s compared with today. We didn’t have an M25 in the 1970s look at it today.

Trails and clouds will form regardless of the weather system. If the relative humidity is 100% they form if less say80% they don’t. I do agree with Hp and clearer skies they are obviously seen.

The solution to all this is to ban aircraft operating above 20,000ft and you will never see them again. However the price of your ticket may go up…

Engine design has also changed since the 1970s bigger more powerful engines.

Im actually quite shocked that people seem to want to believe this…

Is that your home Garden… Gardner.. I’m very impressed..

[Fred259]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Hi Fred,

Indeed, the ground has finally thawed here, and even though we did get some snow a few days ago, I think spring is coming soon! Time for gardening. Hope there's not too much aluminum in the soil! I might have to go shopping at Monsanto's new seed store, the one where they sell seeds genetically engineered to grow in soil contaminated with extreme amounts of aluminum. (US patent # 7582809 )

I want you to convince me Fred. I am listening, and I want you to keep trying.

Your taking the Mic..where did you get that shirt from!

Ok I will be serious now.

I think concentrating on the temperature differentials in the sky and the increased air traffic (which I think are the major two points you've been stressing) are a blind alley.

Dry bulb temperature and wet bulb temperature (Dew Point) and the relativity of the atmosphere are the three essentially components in the formation of clouds and contrails. Honestly, all over the world. Ask your father in law.


I have some info on traffic stats I will post them up.

You are familiar with crop dusters, right? Are you saying that there is an engineering problem that would prevent a higher altitude jet aircraft from dispersing chemicals?

Yes…. You can’t really compare the two…imagine a sealed tank on the ground for chemicals, then you take it to 30,000 ft what happens to the tank? Expand or contract? Take it back down to earth expand or contract? These things can be resolved but huge engineering issues need to be overcome.

If these tanks are fitted they must by law be certified, even rivets have documents. Each rivet has a part number so it can be traced. Wiring as thick as your figure or your arm each wire has a part number stamped on it every six inches. If any of this was happening a full paper audit trail would be available for inspection. That really my point..

Soil scientists can measure levels of aluminum, and can isolate layers for sampling. It is forensic science, not wild-eyed crazy people thinking up new things to be be frightened by.

OK, but they could have come from anywhere, I was trying to explain this to a member in Kansas and she thought I was just making it up so I gave up…

The aluminum is there, in very high concentrations, and it is a new phenomenon. Where do you think it comes from?
Monsanto did spend the money and time to patent a seed resistant to aluminum. Why do you think they did that?

Are you talking about liquid aluminium, or chaff? I fully expect the USAF will be using chaff dispensers, for all sorts of reasons…mainly training I would suggest.

Aircraft can and do spray chemicals, and that's not rubbish.

Dennis, the forum think that each and every day when they see a trail that it’s the government spraying them…I don’t really care any more, really I should just laugh and leave it but I genuinely want to reassure them this is not happening. I don’t like seeing people falling for the NWO, just as you don’t.. I don’t know anything about the altered DNA and am grateful for those that do and share that information with me, that’s all Im about…

Yes crop dusters and specialist aircraft for oil suppression etc but the folks in Brisbane, Berlin, Barcelona, Boston look up and think OMG chemtrails that’s what I’m talking about…the criminals are deceiving them… seriously ask your old dad, gently kind of wiggle your way into the conversation…for your own good!

So, staying away from temperature differentials.

No. Your being naughty... You don’t want to admit that it’s got anything to do with the temps, so let’s put it like this. The dry and wet bulb temps are the fundamental reasons we are able to exist on this planet. This is what causes clouds (and contrails) without clouds we would have no rain, and without rain we would have no crops…so even your own garden wouldn’t grow. It’s fundamental for the existence of mankind on this planet. You cant dismiss it…

What do you think is the story on the outrageous increase in aluminum particulates, and how did it get here?

Ive read and studied the reports of Mt Shasta, but what I would say, is that the atmosphere and climatology is such that they could have come from anywhere. We get sand from the Sahara covering the car in Scotland in mid summer, so in Washington / Oregon they could equally have come from China or Russia Japan. But Im certain they didn’t come from an aircraft tank…they don’t have tanks..

PS Sorry for the delay in responding...

[Fred259]

Posted by Some Bloke (here)
This is a photo of stuff falling out of the sky following two weeks of 'trailing just prior to the harvest,

Hadley Cell showing the subsiding air, surface divergence, ascending air and upper level converging air.

The post from Some Bloke is the most important on the thread IMHO.

He reports that stuff has been falling from the skies following two weeks of jet trails just prior to harvest. He lives in England lets say in the middle of the UK. A member in Kansas also reported sand on farm machinery, thinking this had come from aircraft.

It’s important because this is how the sand and particles arrive and it needs to be considered that problems exist in Japan. Bill has also mentioned issues with China and possible disease born warfare. This is how disease in cattle for example crosses borders, swine flu and much more.

In a Low pressure system warm air rises. In a HP system cold air subsides.

When HP dominates cold air now flows from the HP over the Midwest towards the LP at ground level. The air is cold and so subsides.

On reaching the ground HP starts to build up from this incoming air at the surface and the air is forced west as far as California Mexico and east as far as N Carolina.

As the air travels close to the ground it’s warmed, but it also collects particles dust sand harvest chaff even flies etc.

Low pressure now exists at altitude and so the warm air rise along with all the sand etc and flows towards the centre of the LP over the Midwest. The incoming air now dominates and HP starts building up again at altitude over the Midwest.

Eventually the air circulation is complete with the cold air at altitude subsiding over the Midwest and in so doing dumping sand etc on the farmyard machinery.

The process then starts again so what we are talking about is ;

HP Cold air descending over the Midwest.
Surface level divergence and warming
Ascent with the warm air rising vertically
Upper level convergence towards the LP centre.


This movement of air over vast continents was discovered by Hadley and thus it’s called the Hadley Cell.

The Kansas farmer reports’ sands on the Farm. These sand will have been collected in desert areas and held in suspension in the atmosphere prior to be deposited by subsiding cold air througout the Midwest.. Some Bloke reports stuff falling two weeks ahead of harvest. Likewise the circular flow of air has collected sand dust and harvest chaff perhaps from France and deposited these throughout much of northern Europe.

The circular flow is illustrated on the picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell


http://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/glos...=Hadley%20Cell

[gigha]

Fred259 Hi still not sure how i feel about the hole Chemtrail thing, i do have to say i like looking at the effect of wind.
This last post was very informative. Thanks gigha.

[chancy]

Hello Fred:
Sounds like you are an expert on chemtrails? I am glad to hear that! I wanted to know IF you have ever seen one? I'm not talking crop spraying or just passenger jets flying by.....
I have seen lots of them and I know the difference between crop spraying, contrails and chemtrails. Where I live there is constant crop spraying all summer and fall.
As of 2 years ago I had never heard of a chemtrail and thought anyone talking about them was bonkers BUT as I noticed jets passing by there were some distinct differences.
1. Normal jets left a trail but it didn't roll and make a blanketed cloud cover. Sometimes the trail stayed in the air but just drifted into oblivion. Sosmtimes it just dissipated.
2. Jets that were flying criss cross thoughout the sky with no place to go. These trails (didn't know they were called chemtrails) tended to have much bigger trails and they rolled like rolling out a carpet. The last major ones I saw there were six jets doing massive criss cross patterns and within an hour the sky was completely overcast. Definitely not your normal jet passing by.
Here is are 3 videos that you could say were doctored BUT I say is spraying something and it's not jet fuel.
I'm sure NO ONE is ever going to convince you otherwise BUT whatever these jets are spraying and it's always jets in our area that do a criss cross grid pattern. NO COMMERCIAL JETS would ever do criss cross patterns since they are usually on auto pilot. ( Have family that fly the big birds and even they talk about all the activity in the air.
May the videos at least make you smile ^_^ then people will wonder what you're upto....
PS If you missed the Royal wedding Kates dress definitely will get anyone smiling ^_^
Have a great day and IF you really want to see REAL CHEMTRAILS come visit another common wealth country (Canada) Lots to see..........
Regards,
Chancy

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kh7qA2tqQ5c

http://youtu.be/kh7qA2tqQ5c

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gR6KVYJ73AU

http://youtu.be/gR6KVYJ73AU

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jf0khstYDLA

http://youtu.be/jf0khstYDLA

[john.d]

Well , its a totally grey sky today .... What a suprise !

John

[Fred259]

Posted by john.d (here)
Well , its a totally grey sky today .... What a suprise !

John

Lol.. well because I was rough with you yesterday I had a look at the weather for east Midland Airport with is by Derbyshire England….

EGNX 050950Z 13010KT 9999 -SHRA SCT044 13/05 Q1018

This means:

East Midlands at 09.50Z (GMT) the wind was from 130 degrees (SE) at 10Knots 9999 means visibility is greater than 10nm, -SHRA in slight showers of rain, SCT044 means scattered cloud at 4,400ft scattered also means half the sky is covered.
Now the important info 13/05 Dry bulb temp +13C wet bulb temp +5C Pressure 1018mb.

The forecast for East Midlands for the next 24hrs.
EGNX 050456Z 0506/0606 14008KT 9999 SCT040
PROB30
TEMPO 0513/0519 8000 SHRA
PROB30 0602/0606 7000

No real change, but between 05.00GMT and 19.00GMT today 30% probability tempo means temporary visibility will reduce to 8000metres in showers of rain. They always put in 30% I don’t think you will get rain and if you do only for a very short time.


So let’s work this live example…

13/05 Dry bulb temp +13C wet bulb temp +5C Pressure 1018mb


Altitude Dry / Wet

6000ft

5000ft

4500ft -0.5C -2.5C Cloud base & freezing level 100% RH

3000ft +4C +0.5C

2000ft +7C +2C

1000ft +10C +3.5C

Ground +13C +5C

Dry bulb temp rises and cools at 3C /000 feet
Wet bulb temp rises and cools ay1.5C/000 feet

When illustrated on a chart we can see that the dry bulb temp will be -0.5C at 4500ft and the wet bulb temp will also be -2.5C at 4500 ft. This is the freezing level and the base of the clouds will form at 4500ft because the wet bulb can no longer hold moisture in the air as gas or in a gaseous state. The air is super saturated and also super cooled (freezing)

Therefore we that is Fred in Scotland and John in England having calculated the cloud level at East Midlands Airport to be 4,500 feet.

What does the Met man say in his report; Ohhhhh SCT 044 - Scattered at 4,400 ft. OK we were 100 feet short but good enough for government work I think.

What about contrails?

I checked on another website at the relative humidity was 66% at ground level. So by 5 perhaps 6,000 feet small contrails are going to form.

So I think its going to be pleasant afternoon, I don’t think you will get any rain…but you will and I’m frightened to type this you will get contrails!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8BYWsmp9OY8