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Thread: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

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    Avalon Member Kindred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
    Yes, it is all mind games...we make and believe.
    NOPE!.... As opined in your OP... 'We' don't exist... 'We' is the Creator...

    'We' are All figments of IT'S imagination!

    In Unity, Peace and Love...

    (Within OURSELVES)

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by WhiteCrowBlackDeer (here)
    Me thinketh, my brain has checked out for the evening.
    Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

    If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

    Here, the police will lock me up -- however much of a philosopher or metaphysician I consider myself to be.

    And it was probably pretty real to the guy I shot, as well.

    When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

    If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

    ....

    When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe.
    I think Tony is playing not confusing.

    Sure, one must tread carefully when outside the walls of Avalon and articulating this stuff...

    I am sure that what I may have formerly called reality is illusion - and is made by me; but I also know that it is done for a SHARED purpose.

    However you are right, illusory murder will be met with illusory policemen and illusory jail.

    We made it a powerful illusion and we need to follow our own self made rules in it.

    Or change them... and it...
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the truth be known by all, let the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Still, I say the "I" isn't really the problem here, it's the "am", has been all along.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
    If they exist, compassion doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.
    You don't know many Pleadians, I'd wager.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Ixnay and a disciple once went camping in the Lumenurium Desert, and after a day of exploring, found a suitable camp spot, set up their tent, enjoyed a modest meal and some star gazing, and finally turned in for the night.

    Some hours later, Ixnay woke the disciple.

    "My Friend, look up at the sky now and tell me what you see."

    The disciple replied: "I see a wondrous celestial display filled with millions of stars."

    "What does that tell you?" asked Ixnay.

    The disciple pondered for a minute.

    "Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are countless galaxies and trillions of stars, circled by planets more numerous than we can hope to measure.

    Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Libra, which could be a time for taking relationships more seriously.

    Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three, but then again, time is a relative mental construct with no inherent reality, save for that which we grant it, based on our own particular subjective filters and conditioning.

    Theologically, it might be inferred that Yah the Lord Creator is all powerful and we are small and insignificant in contrast, and consequently could not even begin to fathom the Divine Plan that has brought forth this magnificent manifestation.

    Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow, with clear skies and pleasant temperatures.

    Beyond all of that, I am finally beginning to recognize that these perceptions, and even our very appearance here, are nothing but random, transitory, and non-binding modifications of consciousness Itself, and only reflect a provisional reality.

    Moreover, they are inherently without meaning, except for the meaning we may arbitrarily attribute to them -- again, based on dreamy fantasies of interpretation.”

    Ixnay listened, but remained silent.

    Finally, the disciple asked, "What does it tell you, Master?"

    Ixnay first looked up, then to the left, then to the right, then back to the disciple, and then, laughing, replied:

    "It tells me that someone has stolen our tent!"

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    Still, I say the "I" isn't really the problem here, it's the "am", has been all along.




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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
    When one understands the two truths, everything becomes a symbolic teacher. Everything (a seemingly reality) has the nature of not truly existing (an absolute nature).
    Like ourselves, we have a seeming reality- a feeling of me, which seems to exist, but we have an absolute reality which is constant which is just pure awareness.

    Our absolute reality cannot be said to exist or not exist. If we say "I exist" we still have a duality. We cannot say "I do not exist" because who is saying this!
    This is a very subtle business. In meditation there is just pure perception, there is no time to say " I am perceiving" because then one comes out of pure perception!

    In the two truths one reflects the other, by virtue of one the other is known.


    Tony
    There is that which is not dual, it is real/unreal. Not to be confused with unreal/real. Even truth, as you or anyone else sees it, is true/untrue. We don't have the right goggles, here and now, to see all that clearly out of this one. Same, but different. That's pretty much the best we've got.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Everything inherently contains it's opposite, but still we can confuse one for the other. Always the one and the other, who is to say for sure which is which.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    Everything inherently contains it's opposite, but still we can confuse one for the other. Always the one and the other, who is to say for sure which is which.


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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    I BELIEVE something is behind our Governments. Look at the U.S.government and Obama. Almost 15 trillion in debt and killing innocent people left and right in other countries for the sake of oil. Ether Malevolent ETs/interdimensional beings. All I know is the U.S.government/shadow government is as evil as it comes and the proof is 9/11. Even Alex Jones is seeing the light about these eneties.....

    Last edited by truth4me; 1st September 2012 at 03:57.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    If there really are beings from another place in space.
    Would they call themselves the names that we loosely associate with a assorted groups of stars that, really are not so close to one another? Pleiadians Arcturians Orions? No. Those names are human-imaginary ideas that may or may not be so. We humans are the only ones whom use these distinctions as we are the ones whom created thiose names in the first place.

    example
    The white settlers from Europe had all sorts of names for themselves.
    It is very likely that none of these names are what the Natives of America called them when they came upon the shores for the first time.
    Why not now?

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by nonesuch (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by nonesuch (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by nonesuch (here)
    Any average Joe can overuse the mind to grind itself into submission, insanity or boredom. I still hope to win an Academy Award by doing so now.

    Using the mind and ego to convey a message that says the mind and ego are illusions simply piles on more evidence that mind and ego are real….at least to anyone who’s listening—or worse, listening and believing. .. <trim excess>

    Cold is not a thing - there is no such thing as cold - only heat exists. Yet we have a label for "cold" and can perceive it with our senses, have measurements to measure it by and make our decision by it - yet it does not exist - only heat exists, yet we have a full on perception of cold.

    Ego is not a thing - there is no such thing as Ego - only God exists. Yet we have a label for "ego" and can perceive it with our senses, have judgements to measure it by and make our decisions with it - yet it does not exist - only God exist, yet we have a full on perception of ego.

    Maybe rethink your post?
    If only God exists, exactly what is there to perceive BUT God, even in the form of ego. What is ego created by, or made of, except God? Even toys are real.
    If cold doesn't exist - how do we have this perception of it? There is, and there is the absence of.
    I don't think we disagree on that. Even cold hearts are real, but they're not necessarily the most accurate expression of a spiritual heart's purpose. My point is, when speaking of reality vs. illusion, we're using physical sense perceptions to divine and speak truths and then using the same tools to disprove them. It's not a moral judgement to say that a closed loop is an inaccurate measuring tool when talking about awareness, consciousness, ultimate truth and other things physical senses don't cover. Everything is real, but not everything is true. Depending on how we measure truth, each of us comes to our own conclusions about what is real. With such a smorgasbord at our fingertips, we have to make wise dietary choices. I think the OP was emphasizing that above the question of the reality of Pleiadians. Maybe. But i read that a long time ago. And I'm probably off topic anyway.


    (And sorry, but I have to run to the grocery store, so I'll respond to your comment later.)
    I think I see where your are coming from - "everything is real" -- and as defined earlier in this thread "real" has no consensus and perception is the key.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Woah!, I just read through the latest posts and am thinking that not all really see that this is a philosophical thread. Tony's post was not literal, but philosophical exercise. Maybe that's just the way I saw it? ... My 2 cents.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    No-thing is real, however................................................................ you know it!

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

    If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

    Here, the police will lock me up -- however much of a philosopher or metaphysician I consider myself to be.

    And it was probably pretty real to the guy I shot, as well.

    When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe.


    What a great thread! Thank you to all who have contributed - it's really enjoyable to read everyone's thoughts.

    It's not surprising that you find it confusing, Bill! This is not easy to understand. I'm very far from qualified to even attempt to explain it but I'll have a go - there are others here who could do a much better job

    This thread is about the two truths, according to Mahayana Buddhism, and is from the teachings of Nagarjuna known as the Madyamika.
    In this, existence can be understood as ultimate AND conventional (absolute and relative).

    Conventional truth is how we usually see the world, a place full of diverse and independently-existing things and beings.
    Ultimate truth is that there are no independently-existing things or beings.

    BUT...

    To say there are no independently-existing things or beings is not to say that nothing exists; it is saying that there are no distinctions.

    The absolute nature of all things is known in Sanskrit as dharmakaya. Pure. Lucid. Empty.

    We cannot say that things do exist or don't exist: each of these views are extreme.

    Nagarjuna realised that all phenomena lack independent self-existence: they are dependant on causes and conditions and are a collection of things brought together temporarily.

    Let's say you see your cat asleep on the bed. That is your conventional view - one object(cat) and another separate object (bed). We speak about them as if they have their own individual nature - "My bed HAS four legs", but they can be broken down into component parts...wood, cotton, metal / fur, whiskers, blood etc. and each of those components can be broken down again atoms. Where's is the bed then? It was just an arrangement of atoms existing in space for a short period of time. And then we compound this by seeing the bed as "my" bed or a "stylish" bed - labels from our own minds.

    Absolute truth is not made of parts. There are no boundaries: it described with words like boundless, pure, and perfect. And this boundless, pure perfection is as true a part of our existence as is fabric, wood, fur, skin...

    It's easy to get confused with this, and lean towards the extremes nihilism (nothing exists) or eternalism (everything truly exists for ever). That's why this teaching is known as The Middle Way - between these two extremes.

    There are so many pitfalls when studying this philosophy! I suppose that's exactly why one has to be "fussy" ie precise.
    It's easy to slip into thinking that the absolute is true, "proper" reality and the conventional is false reality.
    It's easy to forget that these are the two truths... not the one truth and one lie...
    One truth is not better than the other.

    BOTH TRUTHS ARE TRUE!

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
    Hello SWAWF

    To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

    Kathie
    Hi, If I may? given my limited understanding of Buddha law. It tells you that there are many levels to existence and each level has the Buddha law, but that each is not the same as the previous or the ones after. Each law is precise, but for that existence only, so how can we consider what absolute existence is? Surely it differes for each and every level of consciousness?
    People too weak to follow their own dreams will always find a way to discourage yours.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by Simonm (here)
    Quote Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
    Hello SWAWF

    To my understanding, the OP isn't actuall about whether or not these beings exist in this relative world...it's about considering - even if they DO exist - that they have no absolute existence because they, like us, will come under the laws of causes and conditions.

    Kathie
    Hi, If I may? given my limited understanding of Buddha law. It tells you that there are many levels to existence and each level has the Buddha law, but that each is not the same as the previous or the ones after. Each law is precise, but for that existence only, so how can we consider what absolute existence is? Surely it differes for each and every level of consciousness?




    Hello Simonm,

    This will depend on what tradition one follows, as there are slight differences in traditions.

    There are nine 'stages', each use the same words but the meaning changes.They are all true, but as one proceeds perception refines.

    Like, at one level compassion is being kind and causing no harm. At the highest level, compassion is knowing the true nature of another being, and seeing that they do not recognise their true nature...compassion naturally arises. But here one of the four enlightened activities comes into play: Pacifying, Magnetising, Enriching or Destroying....egos games!

    There is much to be aware of, as on the path of refining perception, intertwined is the path of deception from demons. I'll be writing about this on another thread called, Undeniable Truth.


    Kind regards,
    Tony

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    I'd say something but "Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about."

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Quote Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    Tony is confusing concepts that have validity at a level out of this reality -- with the concepts that have validity at this level.

    If I shoot and kill someone in an argument, then that's a meaningless and maybe even amusing (or 'unreal'!) thing to happen viewed from other levels.

    Here, the police will lock me up -- however much of a philosopher or metaphysician I consider myself to be.

    And it was probably pretty real to the guy I shot, as well.

    When you cross the road, the bus that might hit you is real. Whatever you believe.


    What a great thread! Thank you to all who have contributed - it's really enjoyable to read everyone's thoughts.

    It's not surprising that you find it confusing, Bill! This is not easy to understand. I'm very far from qualified to even attempt to explain it but I'll have a go - there are others here who could do a much better job

    This thread is about the two truths, according to Mahayana Buddhism, and is from the teachings of Nagarjuna known as the Madyamika.
    In this, existence can be understood as ultimate AND conventional (absolute and relative).

    Conventional truth is how we usually see the world, a place full of diverse and independently-existing things and beings.
    Ultimate truth is that there are no independently-existing things or beings.

    BUT...

    To say there are no independently-existing things or beings is not to say that nothing exists; it is saying that there are no distinctions.

    The absolute nature of all things is known in Sanskrit as dharmakaya. Pure. Lucid. Empty.

    We cannot say that things do exist or don't exist: each of these views are extreme.

    Nagarjuna realised that all phenomena lack independent self-existence: they are dependant on causes and conditions and are a collection of things brought together temporarily.

    Let's say you see your cat asleep on the bed. That is your conventional view - one object(cat) and another separate object (bed). We speak about them as if they have their own individual nature - "My bed HAS four legs", but they can be broken down into component parts...wood, cotton, metal / fur, whiskers, blood etc. and each of those components can be broken down again atoms. Where's is the bed then? It was just an arrangement of atoms existing in space for a short period of time. And then we compound this by seeing the bed as "my" bed or a "stylish" bed - labels from our own minds.

    Absolute truth is not made of parts. There are no boundaries: it described with words like boundless, pure, and perfect. And this boundless, pure perfection is as true a part of our existence as is fabric, wood, fur, skin...

    It's easy to get confused with this, and lean towards the extremes nihilism (nothing exists) or eternalism (everything truly exists for ever). That's why this teaching is known as The Middle Way - between these two extremes.

    There are so many pitfalls when studying this philosophy! I suppose that's exactly why one has to be "fussy" ie precise.
    It's easy to slip into thinking that the absolute is true, "proper" reality and the conventional is false reality.
    It's easy to forget that these are the two truths... not the one truth and one lie...
    One truth is not better than the other.

    BOTH TRUTHS ARE TRUE!


    You are right young Duck!
    We can easily fall into the two extremes, of nihilism and eternalism.

    We all know, this is our nature. Being still is our essence.
    This is relative truth and absolute truth...together.

    When this is recognise, compassion naturally arises.

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    Default Re: Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!

    Gutsy Title you got going on there Pie'n'eal...

    Quote Proof that Pleiadians and the rest do not Absolutely exist!
    ...and 'Gutsy Thread' to boot...

    That'll shorely throw the 'Cat agmonst the Pigeons'..!!!

    But if your 'Denial of their Existence' is true..?

    Then 'How do you Explain' this Alien looking fellow...



    PS - I 'Trust' you still have a sense of humour...

    Good-Luck & Bonne-Chance my friend, your going to need it......


    I've got a 'Spare 'Bullet-Proof' vest if required..?

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