David Icke:

Interview transcript

This page is a reformatted version of the original Project Camelot publication.

In Conversation with David Icke

Sedona, Arizona, February 2009

Start of interview

Kerry Cassidy (KC):  I'm Kerry Cassidy, and we’re here with David Icke and Bill Ryan. And we're going to be doing what we call a Futuretalk. It’s basically sort of a roundtable discussion in which we kind of bat around ideas. Certainly you’re going to be the focal point, and we want to really hear from you on whatever subjects you get sparked by in the course of conversation.

David Icke (DI):  OK. No problem.

KC:  And then we’ll just kind of run with it and see how it goes.

Bill Ryan (BR):  Something that I would like to say is that I think we get more emails, and have done over the three years that we’ve been going, asking us to interview you, and wondering if there’s some weird reason why we haven’t.

DI:  And now we’re both together. Here we are. It’s all synchronistic in the end.

BR:  In the end.

KC:  Absolutely. So we’re here in Sedona, and you’re here, and it was great that we were able to connect with you.

DI:  Great.

KC:  So, where we want to go with this is, we have whistle blowers, and I’m curious. Have you got your own sort of secret sources that have been giving you information through the years?

DI:  No. What happened to me is I had an extraordinary experience, or series of experiences, in the early 1990s. I was a television presenter and a national spokesman for the British Green Party.

Suddenly I felt, over 1989, that there was a “presence” in the room whenever I was alone, and it became more and more tangible as 1989 unfolded. It was bizarre, really, ’cause the Green Party in Britain had their biggest electoral year in 1989 out of European elections.

And I was going through all this whenever I was in a room alone, like a hotel room or something. There was this presence, you know. Eventually it got so powerful towards the end of ’89 that I was sitting on the side of a bed in a hotel called the Kensington Hilton in London, just down from the BBC headquarters...

BR:  I know it.

DI:  ...and I said to this apparently empty room: Look, if there’s something there, would you please contact me, because you’re driving me up the wall.

About two weeks later, it must have been, I’m with my son. He was a little boy then. He’s a singer-songwriter now, in his mid-20s.

BR:  He’s six foot four.

DI:  Yes. This is Gaz... Gareth. We were playing football, and we were going to go down into the town and get some lunch. I lived in a seaside resort in a place called the Isle of Wight in England. And as we got down toward this ‘Greasy Joe’ Cafe, somebody, some railway worker, stopped me and started talking about football because I was on the television talking about sport and stuff.

Then after this conversation was finished, I saw that Gareth wasn’t there. I knew where he would be. He would be in the news shop just down, next to us. So I walked in and he was reading steam train books, because he liked steam trains, like me. And I said to him: Come on, Gareth. We’ll go and get some lunch.

And as I turned, my feet wouldn’t move. Now, this is a guy who’s not been into any of this stuff. He’s a television presenter, national spokesman for the Green Party, a journalist basically, and my feet wouldn’t move.

And I heard – it wasn’t really a voice, but a very strong thought-form passed through my mind, which didn’t seem attached to me. Why would I think it? And it said: Go and look at the books on the far side.

So I went over, and in among the romantic novels was this book with a woman’s face on the front. I picked it up ’cause it was so different to the rest, turned it over, saw the word psychic.

So I read this book in 24 hours and I wrote to her and went to see her. And what I told her was I had arthritis - which I have - and maybe a hands-on healing would help. I told her not the real reason I went, which was: Would she pick up what the heck this presence is I’d been feeling for nearly a year? Well, actually, a full year by then.

I went the first couple of times – and I saw her four times -- and she did the hands-on healing and we had a chat about other dimensions and stuff. It all made sense to me, because I’d always rejected religion and I’d always rejected the scientific view of reality. I just hadn’t focused on: OK. What’s the alternative?

And then the third time I went, I’m lying there on this medical-type bench thing, and I felt like a spider’s web on my face, which really took me aback because I had read in her book that when other dimensions, or whatever, spirits or whatever you want to use, are trying to lock in to you, you sometimes feel like a spider’s web on your face.

Well, funny enough, I never had before and I never have since, but at that moment it was seriously powerful, real tangible. So I’m going: Oh my goodness! What’s going on? And she is kind of doing this by my left knee. And I never said a word to her.

And then suddenly she launches her head back and goes: My God! I’ve got to close my eyes for this one. This is powerful. And she sees this figure in her mind. She says: This figure -- or whatever she called it -- is asking me to pass information to you.

Take into account, you know, I’m a television presenter, presenting the sport and the news at the time.

And suddenly she starts saying that this entity, or this projection of Consciousness, was saying that I was going to go out on a world stage eventually and reveal great secrets. That there was a shadow across the world that had to be lifted. That there was going to be a spiritual revolution in my lifetime because of a vibrational change.

That’s why the first book I wrote was called Truth Vibrations, after that vibrational change. And one line was: One man cannot change the world, but one man can communicate the message that will change the world. I would write five books in three years.

I’m sitting there thinking: I know nothing about this stuff. [laughs] Five books in three years! You must be having a laugh! You know. This was all new to me.

I wrote five books in three years, to the month, and I didn’t realize I’d done it until I realized it was five and then went back. It was five books, to the month, in three years from that time.

I went back another time, and the next time there was some more. So I left and waited.
Something felt right about it, even though my mind’s going: What? What?

Within weeks the BBC had decided they weren’t going to renew my contact, even though I was the youngest one in their department. I was an in-by-a-mile presenter, and it would seem that I would have had a lifetime, a working-lifetime future there.

When I look back at that thought, my emotional chakra, you know, starts vibrating wildly. The thought of being in the media all my life! Oh, my God! When I look back... nightmare.

Anyway, so now I’m out of work, but I feel I have to go with this. And fortunately I’ve always lived below my income because I have a very... You know, I’m minimalist me. I’d rather have the money to go to India than a big house with a mortgage on it.

Anyway. So I had enough money to keep me going for a year. And then it all started, this synchronistic, almost-daily... ah... this daily journey through a maze. And when I started out, it was a thick maze. I had no idea what this was all about. I just felt I had to go with it. I didn’t even know why I had to go with it. I just had this... Gotta go with this.

And what’s happened is, it’s like some force has been opening and closing doors, so I go down this road in a maze and not this one.

And so, coming around to answering your question directly, I just follow, and have followed now for nearly 20 years, this pulsing, this urging, this knowing that passes through me. So I edit my life on the basis of that: Will you go here? Don’t feel to. Will you go here? Yeah. I’ll be there.

And what has happened as the result of just doing that is I’ve walked into people, experiences, information, books, documents, which has taken me, when I look back, on a very specific journey. I’ve described it before. It’s like you try to put a jigsaw puzzle together, and some force is handing you the pieces...

KC:  We feel the exact same way.

BR:  We’ve had the same experience.

DI:  ...almost in the right order that you can encompass them in the picture most easily.

KC:  Mm hm.

DI:  And so, first of all, in the early years of the ’90s and through to about 1996, all the synchronicity was about the five-sense level of this conspiracy -- banking scams, families connecting, the same people behind this, and behind that, and behind that; who’s behind the drug networks, and all that stuff.

Banking families and engineered wars. What was really behind the Second World War, the First World War? And what’s this network that is the guiding force of this conspiracy? All that stuff.

And then from about ’96, when I came to America to talk about this for the first time... And lots of people turned up. I talked to eight people in Chicago, I remember that. That was what you might call an expeditionary three months, because I was talking to myself most of the time. But I was picking up information as I passed around.

What started then, from 1996 onwards, was the next stage of this, which is these families, which I’d learned so much about in the years before, were actually connected to some non-human race, or entities, for which they were basically fronting-up an agenda within this five-sense reality. That’s when I went into the whole reptilian stuff.

Of course, the synchronicity of my life, and my personal journey, and my communication of information are fundamentally connected, because a massive part of my life is, as I’ve been learning more and more, you know, my personal journey has been clearing out my own body computer programming so that I can access higher and higher levels of Consciousness. Of course everyone’s got the opportunity to do that and many people are doing it now.

So I’ve had great challenges in my life at the same time as doing the information to break this up – break these programs up. One of the biggest ones happened in 1991 when I started talking about what was happening to me.

Of course, I was a well-known television presenter in Britain, so there was monumental ridicule, of a kind that few people can actually experience. I mean, I would walk down the street and be laughed at by most of the people in the street for like two, three years. A comedian only had to say my name, no joke necessary, and get a laugh.

KC:  [laughs] But can we go back to that? Because I would love to sort of drill down and find out what... How did you actually get into the reptilian situation?

DI:  Well, yeah, what I was just going to say... The reason I bring this up about the synchronicity of my life is because from 1996, when I started going through the reptilian stuff, because I’d been through that massive ridicule in the early 1990s, it had cleared me out of the key thing that most people live in - the prison that most people live in - which is the fear of what other people think. Therefore, to me, coming out from the late ’90s about the reptilian stuff was not a problem because the level of ridicule could not be greater than what is before.

KC:  But why did you have ridicule before? Because the only ridicule I knew was about the reptilians.

DI:  Oh, no! I will tell you another story that leads into that. Towards the end of 1990, when I had finished the book, Truth Vibrations, and it went off to the publisher to be published in the spring of 1991, I had this overwhelming feeling - again, the urge, the impulse - to go to Peru. And I had no idea why. I just had to go to Peru.

So I get on a plane to Peru, not knowing why I’m going there, and I land in Lima airport. From the moment I landed amazing synchronistic things happened. But eventually I had this Peruvian guide chap who was taking me around.

Funnily enough, the first time I met that guy was in Cuzco, in the old Inca region. And I went ’round to his house, because we were going off traveling around Peru from that day, and he’s lying on his back asleep. And I walked in because the door was open, and he looked up at me and he said, not: Hello, but: Did you have any dreams last night?

What? I said: Well, actually I did. I said: I had a real big clear Technicolor dream that one of these two front teeth fell out. Can’t remember which one.

And he said: Is your father or grandfather still alive?

I said: Well, my father is. Yeah. I said: Why?

He said: Well, that’s usually symbolic of your father or your grandfather dying.

I thought: Well this guy’s gonna be a bunch of laughs for the next three weeks.

KC:  [laughs] Wow!

DI:  And when I next got a call out of Peru, my father had died back in England. It was unbelievable.

KC:  Oh my God.

DI:  Anyway, I go around with this guy and where it all leads, which kind of... Fundamentally it leads to the reason behind the ridicule.

Eventually he put us in a hotel called the Sillustani in Puno. It’s kind of southern Peru, not far from Lake Titicaca. The Sillustani Hotel was named after an Inca ruin site about an hour, hour-and-a-half’s drive away. So there’s pictures of this place all over the hotel, of the ruins. And I said to the guy: I want to go there.

So we go out. I think he did a deal to get some money out of me because I go out in like a little tourist bus with windows on the side, with a tourist bus driver, and the guide and me. Nobody else. [Bill laughs]

We go out to this place, and it’s in the middle of nowhere. Basically when you looked around, it was encircled by mountains - in the distance, mind. And I go there. The only people there are a couple of children with llamas for tourist photographs, but there were no tourists.

So I walk around for about an hour, and it’s very nice. It’s on a hill with a lagoon on three sides. I go back to the car. And I’m... it was nice, but it didn’t match the urge I had to go there.

So I get into the van thing and we start to drive away. And I’m looking out the window, day-dreaming, and I see this mound to my right. It must have been no more than three minutes down the road. And as I look at the mound, all I can hear in my head is: Come to me. Come to me. Come to me. Come to me. What? I’m really new to this stuff. I mean: What’s going on with my life?

So I said to the guide: Can you stop the van? - the bus thing. I’m going up the mound. So I went up the mound. I couldn’t see it from the road, but when I got to the top, there was a circle of standing stones about waist-high. These stones had obviously been there a very, very long time.

So I walk into the middle of this circle, and I’m looking across to Sillustani, and across to the distant mountains, and it’s a piercing-hot Peruvian day. No clouds, not a cloud in the sky. Very much like this one today.

I walked to the center of the circle, and suddenly my feet go again, like they did in the news shop, but only seriously more powerful. There’re like magnets pulling my feet to the ground. And I think: Oh crikey. I recognize that. Here we go.

And then I felt like a drill going in the top of my head and through my body, through my feet, into the ground. And then another one coming the other way.

And then my arms go out at 45 degrees like that. I never made any decision to do it. And of course, you hold your arms out there for a minute, it starts to ache, or my shoulders do anyway. It was the best part of an hour... it must be 45 minutes to an hour my arms were like that. When it was over, my shoulders were agony, but when it was going on, nothing.

What then started to happen is this energy coming through me. This is February 1991. It got more and more powerful. My body started to shake with it, and I had two very powerful thought-forms pass through my head, just like in the news shop.

The first one said: They’ll be talking about this 100 years from now. And I’m thinking: Talking about what?

And the other one was: It will be over when you feel the rain. I’ve just described what the weather was like. “It will be over when you feel the rain”? I mean, you’re having a laugh, mate.

So what happened then, for the next 45 minutes -- because time disappeared; there was no time; I worked it out later – was that this energy just kept coming through me. And I kept going in and out of, if you like, awareness, consciousness, like driving a car and you go: Crikey. Where did the last two miles go?

One of these times when I came back to kind of awareness, I noticed that over the distant mountains there was a light gray mist. And kind of as I watched it, it got darker and darker very quickly, and I realized it was pouring rain on the distant mountains.

Over the next little while, however long it was, I watched this storm come out of the mountains. Weather people talk about, you know, a “weather front”. Well, this was a straight line. The cloud was a straight line. I’ve described it many times. It was like drawing the curtains across the sky.

This thing’s coming towards me, and as it got closer, the sun’s gone. It’s been covered. All the clouds are billowing and I’m seeing faces in the clouds. It didn’t make sense to me, but I saw faces in the clouds.

And then it’s a wall of rain. I’m watching it coming towards me. By this time I’m hanging on, you know, with this energy coming through me. Eventually it hits me - torrential rain - and everything stopped. That’s when I staggered forward and my shoulders were agony and all the rest of it.

Many other things happened, but when I came back to England after that... As I said earlier, my book was published in the early part of 1991, which is a matter of a very short time after this experience.

When I look back now, it was like... You know, if you’ve got a dam and it’s holding water back, the water is calm - right? - because that’s its natural state in that situation, if you like. But when the dam bursts, before a new balance is found after the damn bursts, all hell breaks loose in the water - right? - as it’s trying to go from one state to another.

BR:  Yep.

DI:  When I look back, what happened to me on that mound, it was like the waters of my mind bursting, and for three months I didn’t know what planet I was on. Right?

In the middle of this, my book came out, and I went on the biggest live-chat show in Britain at the time -- it was called the Wogan Show -- in a complete bloody daze about what was happening to me. It had all been in the national papers that basically I had gone crazy.

And I was sitting in this chair in the chat show and the audience was laughing within a minute, two minutes. And they basically laughed for... I think I must have been on about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen minutes, and from that moment on, because I was talking about what was happening to me, except I didn’t understand what was happening to me, and what that did was trigger the most extraordinary levels of ridicule. And... ah... it cleared me out of that fear of what other people think.

But I learned so much about human behavior, I remember, because what you’re supposed to do when you face that scale of ridicule is run and hide. Right?

BR:  That is one of the means that’s used to control us.

DI:  Yeah. So what I did is, I went on a university speaking tour [Kerry laughs] in front of all these students who had not come to listen. They’d come to laugh. Right?

KC:  My understanding is that what you had is a kundalini experience. Do you relate to it like that or do you call it something else?

DI:  I don’t care.

KC:  But have you investigated or has anyone talked to you about that?

DI:  No. No. I mean, I’ve talked to people about kundalini experience, and maybe it was. See, what I do -- I can only talk for myself – is: What is, is. You know?

One of the things that was said to me by the psychic, or through the psychic in 1990 when all this started for me was, they’re saying: You will face enormous opposition but they will always be there to protect you.

Now, I don’t know who they are. I’ve hardly even thought about who they are, because when I leave this genetic spacesuit, I will know who they are. All I do is I go with my intuition.

And what happened to me in 1991, with the great ridicule, was, as life so often does, it gave me my greatest gift brilliantly disguised as my worst nightmare, because that’s what it was at the time and in the experiencing of it.

So what actually happened to me is, something transformed my sense of perception and that’s good enough for me. I don’t really have to know the detail of what happened. But a kundalini experience? It could well have been. Yeah.

BR:  And in the meantime it’s got something to do with tempering the steel.

DI:  Say again?

BR:  Tempering the steel.

DI:  Tempering the steel... Yeah. Because as I keep coming back to... my personal journey and what I’m doing in terms of communicating information absolutely are One.

I was going to say what happened to me when I went out on that university speaking tour. It was the University of Nottingham. There were a thousand people there. I would say 950 had come to laugh. I walked out on the stage, and it was literally the best part of fifteen minutes before I could speak, because it was just abuse, ridicule, laughter, plastic beer glasses thrown at the stage.

I just stood there and waited for it to die down, because it had to eventually, and when it did, I said: You think I’m mentally ill, don’t you? And you know what it’s like: [imitates raucous audience response] Wellll yuuh... [and other rude vocalizations].

And I said: So what does that say about you? Because you’ve actually paid to come here to ridicule someone you actually believe is mentally ill. [Kerry laughs] I tell you what, you could hear a pin drop. And you could hear a pin drop for the rest of the night.

To do what I’ve done in terms of talking about some really bizarre things, you know, my name still only has to be mentioned in a national newspaper in Britain and it’s like complete ridicule, whatever I’m saying.

BR:  It’s toned down a bit.

DI:  A little bit, but not very much. I mean, I stood for election in a parliamentary bi-election in July last year, July 2008 -- not to get elected -- I knew I wouldn’t get any votes; I didn’t want any votes. I mean, I must be the first parliamentary candidate ever to put out a leaflet to everyone in the constituency saying: I don’t want your votes, just your brief attention. Goodness me, I didn’t want to get involved in that! But, again, it was a great experience and I learned a lot from it.

But the media coverage was... I did a media presentation for the national press which was about, I don’t know, 50 minutes, PowerPoint pictures and stuff, in which I talked about the five-sense level of it. Because anything else, I mean, even that blew their bloody minds. Anything else, reptilians... I mean, crikey.

What they did is they just went away and just abused me, and abused it, and ridiculed me. And ironically, the one that did the most abuse... One of the things I said was coming, actually about six weeks later, was actually the front page story in his own newspaper. I mean, it’s bizarre. These people have total cognitive dissonance so that they can’t put these two things together.

So it’s still there, but it doesn’t matter, you know. We’re in a situation where, thanks to the Internet, we can bypass these sad people that work with their concrete minds in the mainstream media.

BR:  And you don’t have to reach everybody, just enough people. It’s The Hundredth Monkey principle.

DI:  Yeah. I’ll tell you what I feel more and more, you know. I mean... Look, I can feel it when I speak, anyone speaks. It’s a vibrational communication. There’s silence between you and me. There’s silence when you speak to me until my brain’s decoded it.

What it is, is vibrational communication. And I feel very strongly that it’s not just the people that hear this information, it’s the fact that this information’s circulating.

If you do an interview for a radio station, 100,000 people might listen to it. But that broadcast frequency carrying that information is passing through the ether, if you like, and is there to be potentially picked up by people who don’t even listen to the radio interview. It touches them on a vibrational level, and, you know...

KC:  I think that’s right. You’re talking about The Butterfly Effect, in essence.

DI:  Yeah, it...

KC:  It multiples. That’s actually a very good way to put it. You know, on a subliminal level... because we exist on so many different levels.

DI:  Mm hm. Exactly.

KC:  It’s like waves. It’s actually... it’s hitting them. And there’s the line that I’ve been quoting lately that says, you know: We learn by osmosis just as much as by word. It actually permeates just by osmosis.

DI:  Yes.

KC:  Into our skin. Into our brain.

DI:  Exactly.

KC:  We’re receivers.

DI:  Exactly. We’re receiver / transmitters. That’s what we are. But people think that the only form of communication is voice-to-ear.

I’ll tell you a funny story. In 2003 I was in the rain forest of Brazil and I took this ayahuasca psychoactive drug. Somebody didn’t tell me I was taking a psychoactive drug, but I’m glad I did, though. It was fantastic. A lot of people have bad experience, but...

This female voice talked to me as loud as mine is now for five hours about how reality, physical reality, is an illusion. Absolutely riveting stuff. Very, very funny. I mean, my feet were the air a couple of times, it was so funny what was coming out.

And as the voice was telling me things, I saw pictures that obviously were being projected. There was one where I walked out on a stage and there was an audience. I just saw the front of the audience here and this voice said: You only speak words to keep the mind happy, basically to keep the brain happy.

And as this voice was saying this, I saw two women in the front row of this scene that had been projected to me, and I’d walked out to the front of the stage and I’d just stood there, and just said nothing – Silence. And after a while this one woman nudges the other one like that and goes, basically: What’s he doing?

And the voice... it was so funny what it said because it came out of nowhere. The voice said; You only speak because if you did not, the audience would be asking when the f??? is he going to start? [laughs]

That actually carries a profound kind of understanding, because the real communication between all of us is unspoken.

KC:  Absolutely.

DI:  And this is very good news. And this is what I would impress upon people. The more you speak your truth - even if people are not listening - you’re changing, or offering, a vibrational field which other people can tune into.

You know, when I look at the speed at which people are awakening, it’s not just because of information on the Internet. It’s not just because of information in my books or someone else’s books.

There is something massive going on, vibrationally, which fits totally with what I got through that psychic in 1990, which was: There is a spiritual revolution coming and it’s taking the form of a vibrational change.

I can see it. In 1990 - no evidence. Now? I mean, please. You can see it. I had people come up to me in LA when I spoke there recently, saying: I was absolutely a part of the system until three months ago.

KC:  Right.

DI:  I read one of your books and suddenly I’m just totally different.

Now, it’s not just because they read one of my books. If you start tuning in to this vibrational change, then bang! Things can happen real, real quick. And, personally, I find it such a good thing that, from my experience, I went through all that... that nightmare experience in the early 1990s when I started to awake, not knowing what the hell was happening.

Because now you can explain to people that if you have an energetic construct here - which was you believing everything was real, and the system was serving you, and this is the cutting edge of human evolution, and all this nonsense - that vibrational field is vibrating your state of being out[ward], and it will draw to you people, places, ways of life, experiences, etcetera, locations, which fit your inner self because the outer self is a projection of the inner self.

So when you start to transform -- this is what happened to me, but I mean it happens to everybody -- to another state of being which then draws to you a very different group of people, places, locations, ways of life, etcetera, there is a transition between the two. It doesn’t go: One gone! ’Ere you go! [Kerry laughs]

This one has to break down as this one emerges. It’s a process of one losing power over your reality, another one gaining power. It can happen very quickly, but it’s not like instant.

KC:  That’s actually a very great metaphor for what’s going on in the macrocosm of the planet.

DI:  Exactly!

KC:  And in the United States in particular, but certainly England. You know, all over. We can see it here. I mean, what’s happening here with the economic downturn and with people losing their houses, their shells, if you will. It changes their lives.

DI:  I couldn’t agree more.

KC:  And the more you resist, I think, the more destruction is going to happen. The less you resist, the quicker the destructive phase is over and you can actually start climbing back up.

DI:  Exactly.

KC:  In your case, you were quite extraordinary in the sense that you had this radical change in your life. You went, you know, from black to white almost. There was almost no downtime for you, it sounds like, although you said for three months...

DI:  Three months was the big downtime.

KC:  But that’s extraordinarily quick, especially in the ’90s. Today, I think this is happening to people and they are going through a quicker transition. And in some ways there’s also a reason for that, because you and people like you have made it easier for those that are following now to go through the changes.

DI:  I hope so.

KC:  Breaking through a veil.

DI:  I hope so. I mean, I get such satisfaction when people say that they were helped in understanding what was going on. And you’re absolutely right. I mean, I talk about this a lot now because between that - the old self and all that it projects in what we call the physical experience, and the new self which projects something else - there is apparent chaos.

Relationships breakdown, you lose your job, you can lose your house, and all this stuff, and if you live that as a physical, I-am-a-human-body experience, then it’s very, very challenging.

If you say: Look, this is where I want to go, and you realize that this is the transition to get there, then you can encompass the unpleasant experiences as just that - an experience - which you’re going through to get to somewhere. And quite right. The collective...

There’s so many levels to this, you know. People say to me sometimes: Tell me what’s going on. I say: Well, first of all, I’m not the guru, but if you want to know what I think is going on, my question is: What level of what’s going on do you want to talk about? Because there’s so many ways to observe the same thing.

So on one level, these Illuminati bloodlines have crashed the global economic system because they want to have that as a problem to which they can offer a solution, which is a fiercely Orwellian, Fascist, centralized economic system.

But on another level, I would suggest, well beyond their level of comprehension - because they’re stuck in their own box, otherwise they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing - we are witnessing the transition from the Prison Society to the Paradise Society, if you like, or the Freedom Society.

And to go from the system we’ve had, which is based on control and imposition, to the system that we’re heading towards - which is what vibrational change is all about - this has gotta go and it’s now going.

KC; Right.

DI:  If people... And it’s easy to say this. It’s easy to say these apparently trite things when, you know, you got a knock on your door saying you’re leaving your house today. But if we can hold this level of seeing it, it makes it easier.

We’re going through this process where it’s all breaking down. And if we can encompass it as what it is, which is a collective experience to get to where we’d like to go -- a world of freedom, a world of kindness, a world of love, a world of freedom to express your uniqueness rather than be imprisoned in your tiny version and false identity of what you are told you are -- then it’s much easier than if you seek to cling to the wreckage of the dying system and hold it together.

KC:  Right. In some ways, you were something of a pioneer, where you had to go it alone.

BR:  I imagine you must have much more support now from everywhere, just in the way that Kerry is describing, than you did when you really felt you were alone going down the rapids.

DI:  Yes. It’s funny, though, because... I mean there are so many things I’d like to talk about that you just brought up, because I think it’s very, very important.

I wouldn’t say I’m a loner, but my connection has always been to that which is driving me and opening doors and pushing me in this direction, and I just follow that. So, although I was alone in so many ways when it all happened, I still had that connection. And I still have that connection now.

And people are very kind and very supportive, but I still basically just operate in my own little bubble and just go my own way. I don’t deal with organizations. I don’t connect with other researchers or anything like that. I just follow this impulse. But it is easier because there’s more people that are open to what you’re saying. But, you know, what you’ve just brought up is very, very important and...

You know, for me, if not the greatest human disease of all because everything comes out of it, I guess, is insecurity. Ironically it was at the height of mass national ridicule that I found my security. Because there’s that line in that song, I think it was in the ’60s: Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.

KC:  Absolutely.

BR:  And you have to look inside for your security. You’re not going to get it from anywhere else outside.

DI:  Yeah. I mean, you look at my situation in regard to that line from that song in the early ’90s, early-mid-’90s, I was being ridiculed by a nation, so I had nothing left to lose. And that’s when I found freedom, the freedom to break out of the prisons of fearing what other people think. And basically I was: Laugh! Laugh, but this is me.

You know, I saw a great car sticker.

BR:  I am me, and I am free.

DI:  I saw a great car sticker in California - it would be California - and it said: You laugh at me because I’m different. I laugh at you because you’re all the same. [Kerry laughs]

I don’t laugh at people because they’re all the same, but it is ironic when this herd mentality is kind of focusing on one person, as it was in Britain at that time. And you look at them and you think: You’re laughing at me? My God! [laughs]

And so, this economic thing that’s going... and, you know, I’ve been describing it recently as like a controlled demolition of a building. You see the charges go off, and then there’s a bizarre split-second before the building goes, and then it collapses. Well, in the economic terms of this crash, we are in that bizarre split-second now.

We’ve seen nothing yet. I mean, this is a crash that no one alive today will have seen. It could be compared with the 1930s, but because of the way the world is, and there’s more people, and the nature of home ownership and all the rest of it, I think it’s going to be bigger.

BR:  So people with gardens and independent means of doing anything at all will be much more interconnected.

DI:  That’s the idea. You’re absolutely right. Absolutely. And so we now face this very situation you’re talking about, where we need to reevaluate our... and it would have been a good idea to do it anyway...

KC:  Yes. [laughs]

DI:  ...our symbols of success.

KC:  Right.

DI:  Now, because insecurity is rampant in people and society, both individually and collectively, and on the level of governments and media and all the rest of it, are constantly getting people to feel insecure, most people do not get their sense of who they are from in-here. They get it from what they think is out-there. See? It’s in their heads.

KC:  Absolutely.

DI:  Therefore, if you are going to attract to you the recognition you want that you’re an OK person, to feed your insecurity, you have to succeed out-there on the basis of the symbols of success that out-there recognizes as success. And of course through the media and indoctrination from cradle to grave, it’s more money, bigger house, bigger car, fame, all this stuff, titles, and all this business.

BR:  He who dies with the most toys wins.

DI:  Yeah. So what you’ve got is, the insecurity itself is - to kind of feed some acknowledgment to lessen its insecurity - it’s chasing these symbols of success that society has decided is successful.

And we forget other symbols of success: Am I happy? Am I fulfilled? You know. Do I live in a society, a kind, loving society that I’d like to live in?

All this goes by the board because the other thing about needing to succeed on this manufactured basis, to feed this, is that you then have to compete with all the other people that are trying to succeed in the same way to feed their insecurity.

KC:  Right.

DI:  And that creates this “Dog eat dog / Top of the greasy pole” society, where everyone’s walking over everyone else -- not everyone, but vast numbers of people are walking over everyone else so that they’re the ones on the top of the pile that get their insecurity fed most profoundly with the symbols of success.

This insecurity is why you find some of the most insecure people you’ll ever meet in places like Hollywood and in the entertainment industry because their insecurity is such... And they’re not all like this. There are very secure people who just play music and like to act, but there’s a lot of insecure people because they need that extra adulation to feed their insecurity.

And so, if we can move our point of observation from I am this body that I see in the mirror in the morning. I am David Icke. I am Charlie Smith, Ethel Jones, whatever, to I am Consciousness having an experience, then your values of what is successful change because your point of observation of everything changes.

It’s the mind working through the body that deals in status and symbols of success that are How high is your pile of trinkets? Whereas, Consciousness doesn’t deal in trinkets. It knows they’re illusory. And, of course, when you deal in trinkets like that, it’s the trinkets controlling you; you’re not controlling the trinkets. [laughs]

BR:  Of course.

DI:  And so, for me, the whole foundation, both of coming through this crash to something much better as the result of it, and the whole transformation in general, is moving out of Mind and into what I call Consciousness, which is that beyond this virtual reality game, beyond this biological computer we call the body.

And you can start to see the difference because Mind deals in structure. It deals in hierarchy, and it deals in apartness. It sees everything as apart.

BR:  And polarization.

DI:  Yeah. And if that’s what you are, if that’s the way you’re seeing life, in terms of hierarchal structures, apartness, and competition, and all this stuff, you’re in Mind. Ironically, the religions are in Mind. They’re all Mind constructs, the religions. That’s why they have rules and regulations.

BR:  Of course.

DI:  That’s another massive red light. Hey! Mind! And that’s rules and regulation and laws.

KC:  And limitations.

DI:  Limitation, a sense of limitation. So, if we can change our point of observation so we cease to see ourselves vitally and the world we think we’re living in, in those terms, and look at it from a point of view of Consciousness...

I said earlier that this force that’s been kind of pushing me through my last 20 years took me through synchronistic experiences to understand the five-sense level of the conspiracy, then moved into the interdimensional connection and the reptilian connection to these families.

And since 2003 it’s taken me into what I know is by far the most important and that is understanding the nature of reality. Because, you know, how can you get a grasp of your own life and take any kind of control of your own experience, if you don’t know who you are, where you are, or the nature of the world you’re living in?

This information, for me, is by far the most important because it moves the point of experience from in-this-world to observing-this-world, or a mixture of the two, and that...

If you’re in-this-world and you’re of-this-world, then what’s coming is going to be a bloody nightmare. If you become the observer as well as the experiencer by becoming more conscious, then it’s much easier. Because that’s not you, that’s your experience which you are observing and...

KC:  Absolutely. This is something that... George Green says that he was in contact with the Plejarans and that they helped write a book through him that says that exact thing, that you need to stay in the “observer mode”.

DI:  Exactly.

KC:  And observe what’s going on and not get caught up in the experience in such a way that actually, as you said, you become of-this-world instead of in-it-but-not-of-it.

DI:  Yeah. And what I’ve found, as I’m talking more and more about the reality we live in, is it does, if you like, take the edge off the fear of what’s happening.

Because it is funny, really. I think that when we find out everything that’s going on and the nature of what we’re experiencing and what’s behind it, I think we’re going to laugh for weeks. I do. I think we’re going to laugh for weeks. And we thought it was THAT? Oh, my God.

The whole thrust of the maze and opening and closing doors since 2003, for me, and it’s getting more and more deep, and deeper and deeper, is: What is reality? Who are we, what we’re doing here? And how do we interact with it?

And it’s very clear to me that this is a virtual reality universe of enormous advancement compared with what we perceive to be virtual reality simulations in this world. And, you know, this is not just supposition. This is provable scientific fact.

BR:  Yes. I mean it’s so good that we think it’s real. [laughs]

DI:  Yeah. You know, the five senses just decode vibrational information into electrical signals, send it to the brain, and the brain decodes it into this construct that we think is outside-there but it’s actually inside-us.

The only place this world exists, a so-called solid world, a three dimensional world, is out-there, we think. But actually it doesn’t exist out-there. Out-there is just vibrational fields. It exists in-here as we construct it. And even the brain is a decoded construct, as well. It’s on an energetic level that we do the decoding, really.

This is very, very important because what the manipulators do, because they’ve hoarded this basic knowledge and passed it over at the highest level of the secret society network and sucked it out of public circulation.

KC:  That’s right.

BR:  Yep.

DI:  They know that if we look out-there for answers, believing that there is an out-there, instead of an illusory projection that’s going on in-here, then we’re never going to change anything.

BR:  Yep.

DI:  Never! We’re never going to change anything, And once you go: Ah! There’s no out-there, so where’s it coming from? Oh! It’s coming from in-here, so this is where I have to change. Oh! There you go!

It’s what I call -- and this is what most people do because of the suppression of this understanding -- is they stand in the movie theater and they shout at the screen because they don’t like the movie.

KC:  Uh huh.

DI:  And people say: You’re crazy. You’re never gonna change the movie shouting at the screen. Go find the projection room. Change the reel if you don’t like the movie!

And the projection is deep within us, you know. Some research I saw recently says that only about 5% of behavior and decisions that we make are with the conscious mind. I would actually say that’s not true, personally. I’d say 100% of what happens in this three-dimensional reality’s only in our head -- actually is a projection.

The conscious mind is actually not the decision-maker at all. It’s the observer and experiencer of it, and it literally is the same principle as a movie projector which comes from within, within what we call the subconscious, where all those patterns of air which we’re being influenced by and are affecting our projection and our reading of it. And it comes out of the subconscious. By the time it hits the screen in-here, symbolically on the movie theater, it’s a done deal.

This is where the change has to take place -- within us -- to change the projection which is our conscious mind’s experience. People are so caught in the conscious mind as that’s the only level.

I mean, you hear them talk about subconscious and all that stuff, but really it’s: I thought it. Well, how come experiments have shown that the electrical changes and muscular changes to make an action happen, happen a split-second before the conscious mind has decided to do it?

It’s because they’re playing it out. And so, this talk about We must go within, this New Age “must go within” -- and there’s much about the New Age I would challenge -- but this basic theme is absolutely right, I would say.

And what the whole conspiracy’s trying to do is get us to look out-there. Let’s go and protest. Let’s go and do this. Let’s go and do that. And you protest and you have a million people on the streets of London protesting against war. And what happens? The war goes on, and then they start another bugger.

BR:  It’s just more dialectic.

DI:  Yeah. We need to change the projection.

KC:  This is actually something that we’ve come around to, and we’re aware that Consciousness is where the change has to happen. And then Consciousness is also where you have to apply the change in your vision of reality.

You can’t actually just stop there. It actually has to permeate everything. So it needs to be embodied in this body, but we have to talk about who’s in control. So if Consciousness is in control and I can use this to do, for example, what we’re doing here, which can be used to further change, and push the change, and help the change, then this is a good thing.

But it’s not enough, in other words, just go to in like Buddha and simply sit in your mind and do nothing. Because doing nothing is also not the answer.

We actually came here with a purpose. A game is being played out here and if you stay in the Consciousness and you’re able to change your inner self and then mirror it outside, and facilitate, which is what you’re doing, obviously. And obviously you embody this in your life. And what we’ve been doing with Camelot is we’re also talking about... You can’t actually demonstrate in the streets and get real results because it’s really, you know, action / reaction. It’s really that.

DI:  Exactly. I agree.

KC:  But you can join minds and meditate. There are places for action that are actually really proactive and can change the world in a positive way. It’s a very interesting dilemma for people that they have to actually embody the change that they seek, and live it. You know, you cannot be a contradiction to what’s inside. It doesn’t work. There has to be a through-line.

DI:  Well, I would put it this way. I would say that, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, that this reality, this holographic, illusory, physical construct which we put together in our heads is like a holographic Internet, I call it. That is 100% a projection and by the time it hits the screen, it’s a done deal in our experience.

But a lot of people I’ve come across and heard, they do think that if you just sit and meditate or just go within, then that’s all you need to do. But this is a projection and it’s a projection from somewhere. So this projection is an open book of the inner-us, individually and collectively. So what we play out in this experience says everything about our state of being.

You can say Go within, and you can use it as an excuse to not go without and you can go within and meditate. OK. So what’s happening in the projection as the result of what you’re doing? The only projection that you’re affecting is you sitting cross-legged in the corner. What else is changing?

Yes of course you can change things vibrationally, to an extent, but what is happening in the world is saying what’s happening in us, and we’ve kind of missed that connection. So, if we’re doing nothing to make a contribution to the kind of world we’d like to live in, in the physical world, then that says something about the state of us within. But we’re not doing that.

KC:  Right.

DI:  And I see so many excuses being made by people who have become to a certain extent aware of some of what’s going on, so that they can justify to themselves why they’re doing nothing. People say to me: You don’t tell us what to do.

And I say: Well, actually, I talk about becoming conscious and all that stuff. I think, you know, that’s a start. But, it ain’t for me to tell you what to do. And if you think that I have to tell you what to do, then you’re not listening, because this is about taking power back to the point where we project, rather than looking out-here at a done deal.

KC:  Absolutely.

BR:  There’s an active paradox here, isn’t there? Because that’s not the whole story. Otherwise you’d be sitting in the corner smiling and not talking to us here, and not working as hard as you do, and not talking to people to help the process of waking them up so that they can then join you in this understanding, which we share with you also.

It’s important, in a sense, to pretend that all this is real, because this is the platform from which we can waken ourselves up and rejoin Consciousness again. And so it’s a paradox. It goes on at both levels. What you say is true, and this all is an illusion, and it all doesn’t matter. But it’s all important enough for us to be talking about it.

KC:  What I was saying is, in your presentation where you’re talking about Consciousness and the Mind and the problems with staying just in Mind... There’s a lot of brilliant people out there coming to brilliant conclusions. And yet they can’t live it. You see? The manifestation doesn’t go anywhere.

DI:  Yeah. It becomes an intellectual, academic kind of point of observation rather than Consciousness, which is something that just is.

The difference that I am now increasingly making is between Mind and Consciousness. And I would go further and say that we talk about “my mind, your mind, his mind, her mind”. I don’t see it like that. I talk about The Mind.

The Mind is a construct of the virtual reality universe which allows us - Consciousness - to interconnect with this virtual reality. It’s like a conduit. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it whatsoever if it serves the experience of Consciousness, and serves our ability to interact with this virtual reality universe.

What has happened -- and I would strongly suggest it’s been manipulated to happen, not least by these families and other levels of manipulation -- is we have been manipulated into a false identity which is identifying who we are with Mind, which operates directly through the body, and calls itself “David Icke”, “Ethel Jones”, “Charlie Smith,” that looks in the mirror and thinks that’s who it is.

Basically, you know, this is a biological computer. It’s not a computer that just reacts to the way it’s programmed to react to data input. It has the ability to -- they call them living computers -- biological computers. They’re trying to build them now in different parts of the world. It has the ability to assess information and make decisions on it. In other words, to quite a large extent it has the ability to think.

What happens is, if we get caught in Mind and self-identity or “That reflection in the mirror is me”, and not just my experience, then Mind starts to govern our sense of reality. And Mind is about division, apartness, hierarchy, rules, regulations, laws, limitation.

And, you know, you can have someone in the New Age arena who talks about spirituality, talks about other dimensions – which are other virtual reality games, I would suggest - other levels, but blatantly is stuck in Mind and the values of Mind.

I mean, I hear New Age people talk about the Great White Brotherhood and the hierarchy of the angels, and stuff. That’s Mind talking!

BR:  Of course it is.

DI:  Consciousness doesn’t do hierarchy. It just is. All possibility. All that is.

BR:  Yep.

DI:  And so, the same mind-construct, The Mind, can entrap a New Ager as it entraps in another part of The Mind a Wall Street banker.

BR:  Yeah. It is just another religion. It’s another religion.

DI:  Yeah! That’s the thing, you know. I was talking to... on an interview yesterday, and we got into some interesting areas. He asked me about religion. Well, religion and the political party, and the New Age, and all these things that we don’t call “religions” – institutions - they’re all the same construct.

KC:  Right.

DI:  Because Consciousness just is. Consciousness doesn’t think. Consciousness knows. That’s why Consciousness is silent when we access it, because it’s got nothing to work out.

The Mind is where the chatter comes from because it’s constantly trying to work things out. [makes chattering sounds] What about yesterday? What’d she say about me? [more chattering sounds]

Silence -- Consciousness. So, to hold you in Mind, and this conspiracy is about holding the population in Mind because then they gotcha...

KC:  Absolutely.

DI:  ...because that’s their stadium – Mind. They’re stuck in Mind. If they were conscious, they wouldn’t do what they’re doing. To hold us in Mind, they have to sell us something to rigidly believe in.

So, religions ... brilliant example of rigid belief. And what is it? Once you rigidly believe something, you then call it a name.

What are you? You don’t say: I’m Consciousness. How many people say: Hello. Who are you? I’m Consciousness. Oh, so am I. Nice to meet you.

No-no. What we are is what we do: I’m a journalist. I work in a factory. What are you? I’m a Hindu. I’m a Christian.

These are mind-constructs. These are mind-prisons that limit our sense of self. So once you have a rigid belief, then you give it a name.

Now, I have a simple philosophy about all this: If you can tell me what you believe and give it a name, you’re in a prison. Because everything just is. We all just are. It’s “The Force with No Name”, I call it -- Consciousness.

And so you create religion and then after the name, then comes the rules and regulations -- this is how the construct goes -- of what you have to conform to if you are going to be allowed to call yourself whatever name that’s been come up with. You’re not a Christian if you believe that. And all this stuff.

Then you look at political parties. You have a group of people. They get together and they want to do something politically. So they give what they’re doing a name: Democrats, Republicans, Labor Party, Conservative Party, whatever. So there’s the name.

Now come the rules and regulations that decide if you can call yourself one or the other. You can’t believe that and be a Conservative. You can’t believe that and be a Liberal. It’s the same construct, wherever you look.

BR:  Yes.

DI:  And then the belief system... As research has shown, rigid beliefs, the neurons fire off in a certain network and sequence, in line with the belief, because what the brain’s doing is then filtering, decoding reality and circumstance through the belief system, which manifests in the brain as the way the neurons fire off.

And suddenly, instead of being free-thinking, or even better, free-knowing - conscious - you are operating in a tiny little box. And that box is basically the way your... Not basically. It is the way your brain decodes reality.

So once you’re into belief, a rigid belief, then they gotcha. And that’s why they want to sell you rigid beliefs.

BR:  Yes.

KC:  Absolutely.

BR:  There’s an active paradox here, isn’t there? Because that’s not the whole story. Otherwise, you’d be sitting in the corner smiling and not talking to us here, and not working as hard as you do, and not talking to people to help the process of waking them up so that they can then join you in this understanding, which we share with you also.

It’s important, in a sense, to pretend that all this is real because this is the platform from which we can waken ourselves up and rejoin consciousness again. And so, it’s a paradox. It goes on at both levels. What you say is true, and this all is an illusion, and it all doesn’t matter. BUT it’s all important enough for us to be talking about it.

DI:  It matches, Bill, in the sense that... Do we want to experience a reality that’s very, very unpleasant, and controlling, and limiting, and frightening, and stressful?

Or do we want to experience a reality that is loving, kind; where no-one goes hungry in a world of plenty; where there is no war because no-one would even consider the idea that it was a possibility or an option?

That’s the choice we’re making. We’re always Consciousness, and when we leave the body we’ll become at least much more aware of everything than we are now.

So we’re always conscious. We’re all eternal Consciousness. But the question is: What kind of experience do we want here?

KC:  Exactly.

DI:  You know, that’s the choice.

KC:  We call it, What kind of game do you want to play?

DI:  Yeah.

KC:  We have a chance now, because we are Consciousness, to change the rules of the game, to make it something different than it is. Change inside, but let’s also agree, because that’s what’s happening. That’s what a Consciousness revolution has to be about.

It’s not good enough for you, David Icke, to have got it. It’s not good enough for us to have got it. What we need is for everyone to get it, to tune this game here on this plane, because that’s what it’s really about.

In other words, Consciousness... and this is where it gets into What is Consciousness? It’s love. And what is love? It’s actually the awareness of all of us.

DI:  Hmm. Well, I would say everything is Consciousness. Mind is Consciousness, but it’s a much denser expression of Consciousness, and that’s why it sees everything in terms of limitation.

And as people become conscious, it can - to use the term of a friend of mine in South Africa - Consciousness can “conscientize” Mind and bring its awareness out of the level that it currently perceives reality.

But I do think it’s important that, if we’re going to play this game successfully, that we understand where the game’s being played. It’s not being played out-there.

See, what the five senses are doing, like I said earlier, is that they’re decoding vibrational information, turning it into electric signals. The brain then constructs this apparent reality out-there, which actually is only in-here.

So the prime reality is vibrational. That’s the prime reality. That’s where the change has to take place, because as the change takes place there, the five senses decode different vibrational states into electrical signals.

BR:  There’s that wonderful story told by Michael Talbot in The Holographic Universe.

DI:  Yeah.

BR:  And I read that page over and over again when I first saw that book in the late 1980s. This is the story about the stage hypnotist who hypnotized the father to believe that his daughter was invisible. And then he was able to read an inscription on the watch held behind her body, because for him she was no longer there, and reality had changed. It was physically different in his mind.

DI:  Well, this is the whole point, you see. For a hypnotist to put a watch behind someone’s back and someone the other side of it read it, that’s perceived to be impossible. But it’s only impossible if you believe this world to be solid and real and out-there.

The reason it could happen is because the prime reality -- and I can’t emphasize this more -- the prime reality that is playing out here is vibrational. That has to change or this can’t change.

And so, if the hypnotist, as he did, implanted the program into the guy’s brain not to decode the vibrational level, the prime level, of his daughter through this system into a holographic, so-called physical form that we see, then he would decode all the other vibrational fields in the room into people and walls and furniture.

But because it’s like a computer being fire-walled off, he doesn’t decode the daughter’s prime state -- your prime state, our prime state, the prime state of everything, this vibrational level -- into the holographic, apparently out-there reality.

And so she doesn’t exist in his head as a holographic form, i.e, supposedly physical, so he can’t see her. Because she’s not there, he can see what’s behind her. Therefore he can read a watch even though she’s standing there to everyone else in the room. They can see her. Why? Because their brain has not been programmed not to read that energy field into a holographic form.

Now, just as a quick aside, how many things, collectively, are we not reading that are there to be read?

KC:  Well, one of the things is there’s more than five senses. OK? And the heart is... It’s not just the mind. It’s actually the heart. It’s really the heart and the intelligence of the heart that you can see through if we’d only use that. So it’s more than...

In other words, these are tools for us. Our mind is a tool. Our heart is a tool. But you can’t stay up here. [gesturing to head] You’ve actually gotta go through the heart to really see. See, we don’t see with our eyes. That’s actually... that’s a construct. That’s a mental construct.

DI:  Yeah. We see with our brain.

KC:  We actually see with our heart more than anything else and through the heart. And so what happens is, it’s a union between the mind and the heart...

DI:  I agree.

KC:  ... that allows you to see. And you could put yourself in that man’s position and say: How could the man see through the implant that was put into his brain?

First of all, what did he do? He had to accept the magician’s, you know, implant, to begin with. So in the same way, we in society are accepting the implant, whether it’s television or whatever, which is blocking our real view of reality. We’re accepting it.

DI:  Yeah. I mean, the thing is though, that what the hypnotist was doing was just programming the decoding mechanism.

BR:  Yes.

DI:  And therefore he didn’t decode a vibrational field, i.e., his daughter, into a holographic form. Therefore he didn’t see her.

And I completely agree that the heart has the potential to be a massive part of our reality-decoding, our reality-expression.

But we also have to appreciate that this conspiracy... While we see the George Bushes of the world and the Barack Obamas and people like that, the Kissingers, the real level of this conspiracy, where the world is being controlled, is on a vibrational level.

That’s why I talk about these reptilians that are doing this and others, too, operating outside this reality. They operate on a level of the vibrational level. That’s where the manipulation’s going on.

BR:  Yep.

DI:  And we need to be, you know, kind to ourselves as well, in understanding the challenges that we face, and not least trying to understand a world that is being manipulated into a state, or has been manipulated into a state, which has just stopped us understanding the world.

And so, you know, we look at television and the manipulation of television and newspapers and stuff, but when we see a newspaper or we see a television program, we’re just seeing the decoded version of a vibrational field.

Those newspapers and those television programs and news programs, all the rest of it, they are actually “physical holographic representations” of the prime reality, which is a vibrational field.

BR:  Yeah. Yes.

DI:  It’s at that level that that manipulation we call “subliminal”, that manipulation we call “lying to the people,” and all the rest of it, actually happens.

And so basically what they’ve done is pull a vibrational veil over us. If you can make it powerful enough and dense enough, you focus peoples’ sense of perception into such a narrow area that they disconnect from an awareness, and therefore a deep effect in their perception of consciousness.

You’re isolating their point of observation into Mind. And that’s happening on a vibrational level which then plays out in what we call the physical world.

BR:  Yes.

DI:  So what’s vital - and this is why this information is so important - not just... I’ll tell you what I’ve found. Nothing represents literally and symbolically the prison [more] than the left brain, which deals in apartness, language, hierarchy, structure, and all this stuff.

And the information about the five-sense conspiracy, I’ve found, one of its great values is that it operates in a left-brain realm. When you’re explaining how this and that and the other is connected to the same people, and they control that, and this is what they’re doing, and these are the techniques they use ... that’s left-brain information.

KC:  Oh yeah.

BR:  Yes.

DI:  And when people say: Oh, you shouldn’t put out that information. It’s negative. They don’t understand that we’re looking at a multi-level situation. Therefore we have to deal with it on a multi-level basis. That means covering all bases, not just sitting cross-legged on a mountain.

BR:  Of course.

DI:  Now, what I’ve found over the years is that once the left brain... Because symbolically I see, you know, you’ve got the left brain, which is what I’m talking about. You’ve got the right brain which is a much more out-there connection and sees everything in unity, the creative urge.

Then you’ve got the bridge, the corpus callosum, which ideally should be sharing information so you’ve got a balance. You’re in this world and of it. You know.

But what the conspiracy does -- again it’s all on a vibrational level that it goes in, and then it plays out here -- is they put, symbolically, soldiers on the door to the left brain.

This is why, to progress within this society, one of the most effective ways is to keep passing exams, and passing exams, and getting degrees, and all this stuff, because that’s... An exam is: Here’s some left-brain information, now give it me back on a paper telling me what I’ve told you to believe. OK. You’ve done it very well. You’ve got a first-class degree. A first-class indoctrination, often.

Now, what this conspiracy information, on a five-sense level does, it talks to the left brain in the language the left brain understands. And I’ve seen it over the time in my personal experience, and of course other people would have seen it, it starts to make the left brain change its sense of reality.

Once it starts to change that, it starts to think: Well, hold on a second. If everything I thought about the world here was wrong, and it’s not like that at all, what the heck else is in this world is not like I thought it was?

I’ve seen this, where people, once that left brain starts this process of withdrawing from a sense of “It knows what’s going on” to “I never knew”... then it starts to move. As it starts to move, it literally starts to open to other possibility, and then this movement between the hemispheres can start to happen.

I’ve seen people who would have laughed in my face about reality and all that stuff, who now encompass it because they went through the process of credible names, dates, places, five-sense information, explaining logically why the world is not like they thought it was on a five-sense level. Everything starts to move then.

So, you know, it’s important that the de-programming of peoples’ manipulated sense of reality happens on multi levels, not just kind of, you know, “We must become spiritual, we must go within”, you know.

I mean, people say: Oh, Alex Jones, he just frightens people. And all that. Well, hold on a second. You know, just hold on a second.

You know what’s negative? It’s not information. It’s ignorance. That’s what’s negative -- ignorance. And if you want to be ignorant, and therefore a manipulator’s party trick, then you go ahead.

And if you want to look at the information, the five-sense information that I put out, and Alex puts out, and people like that and many others, and say: It’s negative. It’s frightening...

Well, the fact that you find it frightening instead of empowering because you now understand the game better and therefore you have more power to do something about it, then that is not a statement about those putting the information out. It’s a statement about the way you’re receiving it.

BR:  Exactly. Something that we like very much was something that George Green said to us in our interview with us April of last year. He used this little analogy.

He said: Listen, if your car is on the railroad track, and there’s a train coming down, and you don’t know that, and I don’t tell you, then it’s shame on me for not telling you and shame on you for not knowing. And this is just a nice little way of encapsulating what you’re saying.

DI:  Yeah. I have an analogy I use, very similar to that. I talk about the - not the hurricane coming... What do you call them? The twisters?

BR:  The tornadoes.

DI:  The tornadoes. Yeah. And the tornado’s coming but you have put your head in a bucket of sand because you don’t want to face the fact that the tornado’s coming. Now, you can hide from that for a while, but you’re still there and the tornado’s still coming. And your bum is still in the air, and it’s gonna get smacked very shortly by a tornado.

If you lift your head from the sand, face the situation that you’re in -- there’s a tornado coming -- now you have taken power back to yourself by saying: OK. I see the situation now. I can take avoiding action, for my benefit.

BR:  Of course.

DI:  And this is why it’s so important... You know, I hear people who you might New Age, who talk about “letting go of fear” and “taking your power back,” and “Come to this workshop and we’ll show you how to do it.”

And then they say: Oh, you mustn’t talk about this conspiracy. It’s too negative. What happened to letting go of fear and all this stuff, you know?

BR:  These are the guys who heard that the Angel Gabriel is going to come and save us, you know? That doesn’t work either.

DI:  Every level ... it seems to me every belief system, every mind construct, seems to have a version of the cavalry coming over the horizon, you know: OK. Here’s the cavalry. OK? Here’s the cavalry. Here’s the cavalry. There’s the cavalry.

And we need to understand that, you know, because if we give our power away to other people, where do those other people actually... Where do they actually stand, physically, as we give our power away to them?

Out-there, symbolically. So what we’re doing is giving the power away into the illusion and then wondering why nothing ever changes.

The whole conspiracy, or the foundation of the conspiracy, is to persuade 6 billion people to give their power away every day. And the power used to control us is the power of these people saying: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Take it back, house of cards comes down, because that’s what it is. It’s a house of cards, and we’re holding it together in-here. We’re constructing the house of cards in-here. Great news... we can bring it down in-here.

KC:  Right. But I have to say that we’re not only going to do that with the Mind. That’s what’s really important here.

DI:  No, the Mind plays it out. We're going to do it by becoming conscious. That’s the point.

KC:  Absolutely, but also left brain / right brain. I want to address that a little bit.

DI:  Right.

KC:  Because it’s not enough to reconstruct reality based on things getting to a place where you don’t know, and then you’re willing to open to a new construction of reality such that you’re going to play the game different, but you’re still lodged in the left brain.

You must bring in the holistic view, the view that encompasses the heart, that encompasses the female, which is the yin-yang side of things, because what we have here, has been playing out for centuries, is a really yang view of reality, especially on the Western side of the world.

DI:  Well kind of. I’d say it slightly differently.

KC:  So what I have to say is, it’s more than just reconstructing the left brain in a new way to play the game better, because that’s actually cheating yourself on another level.

You need to grow and open the door between the left and the right brain, such that there is a flow. And that means that you’re talking about the heart. You’re talking about senses that are beyond the five. And so you have to...

What you had to do in your own exploration was... you never would have gotten the information you wanted to get by staying in the left brain. As you said, you had physical sensations. They locked your feet. They gave you information that came out of nowhere. You couldn’t make logical sense of it. Logic was out the window. So left brain’s gone, you know. It’s even worse, or useless, when you get into that place.

DI:  I agree.

KC:  So you must actually... It’s like traveling, in a sense. You must actually travel to a different place. What you do [meaning David] is, you follow your intuition.

DI:  Right.

KC:  You’re over on your, I guess they call it the right side of the brain. That’s where you are. That’s where intuition resides, so you’ve opened that door. There is a flow. And that’s really what has to happen.

DI:  Well, yeah. I mean, I take my intuition, which has guided me and has lead me to information. Also it’s like a filter. I have a vibrational sensation when something is not true and something is true, and another one when it’s maybe partly true.

KC:  That’s holistic.

DI:  Yeah. The left brain’s still important in bringing those concepts down into a language of communication that people can assimilate that are stuck in the left brain. Because if you don’t talk in logical -- from their perspective, logical terms that the left brain can understand, which is under lock and key -- then that key will never open.

And that is also why what you’ve just said, that you will... Except on rare occasions when I’m talking in a very small time-scale or doing an interview on a specific subject, I will never talk about the five-sense conspiracy without the nature of reality, and the influence of Consciousness, and all the rest of it.

Another point you make is about the heart. I agree. The heart is absolutely at the heart of this and is much more powerful than the brain and much more powerful than The Mind because it is connected. I would say that’s what connects us through the Consciousness.

And this conspiracy also... Because, you know, it’s a simple thing. In the deep shadows behind the people in dark suits is a force, whatever you want to call it, that understands how this works.

KC:  Right.

DI:  So they’ve structured a society that is to close down all the channels to Consciousness, to isolate us in Mind because then we’re playing in their stadium. And one of the key things they use is to close the heart. To close the heart.

And if you want to open the heart and you want to become conscious -- it’s what I say in my talks -- then what we need to do is to ask the question: What would Consciousness do at this point?

Would Consciousness, when we’re faced with this set of circumstances say: Well, what’s the best outcome for me? No. Consciousness would say: What is the right, just, fair thing in this situation for me to do?

And if we, when we’re faced with choices all through the day, ask that question: In this circumstance, what would Consciousness do? And act upon it – crucially -- then everything changes. And our life changes.

Why? Because we are now starting to resonate with Consciousness because we’re operating in its realm, which is... By doing what we say Consciousness would do in these circumstances, we are vibrationally locking in to that level and therefore becoming more and more influenced by Consciousness.

When we say: Well, yeah, I see that, but it’s not good for me if I do what’s right in this situation. I must do what’s right for me. That’s Mind, so that’s locking you into Mind.

You know, this thing about becoming conscious... I see it so often all over the world. I mean, I was in India just before Christmas. And, you know, good luck to them, but they make it sound so complicated.

And you know, a lot of the complication, I see this with New Age people that stand on stages and do workshops, not all of them of course. I see it with gurus in India and stuff like that. Not all of them, again, but vast numbers of them.

The complexity says two things: One, they don’t really understand it, because if you really understand something, you can put it in simple language.

BR:  I’d agree with that.

DI:  This is why you get academia repeating jargon. And you say: Look, I’m an idiot, mate. OK? I’ve never passed an exam in me life. I left school at 15 to be a professional soccer player. You’re gonna have to put it in language I can understand. They can’t because they don’t really understand it. They’re just repeating jargon.

And the other side of the complexity of becoming conscious is, if you can make it sound complex, then you’ve taken power over your potential audience. That’s a big thing.

KC:  Absolutely. It’s still a power game.

DI:  You have to come through me. And the more I make it sound complex, the more power I have, and therefore the more you must come to me, and the longer you must stay with me. And, by the way, put the check in the box as you leave. [Kerry laughs]

And yet it is so simple. This is the point I would make. People talk about “We must become conscious”. It’s a lie. 

We are conscious. That is our natural state. What’s happened is, barriers that we have been manipulated -- and we must take responsibility for it too, big time -- are put in place, have symbolically created a concrete shell around our natural state. And in this concrete shell are all the things that control people -- fear and stress, and conflict, and seeking success, and competition, and all this stuff.

It’s not that we have to become conscious. We are conscious. It’s breaking that shell. And that shell is Mind domination. If we can break that shell, we become conscious.

BR:  It’s like the lie that’s in language when people say: My spirit, My soul, and I’m hungry. It’s like, wait a minute, this is the wrong way around here. You know: I have a body and my body is hungry. My body is tired. And I am a soul and I am a spirit.

That language, which is a product of The Mind in the first place, because we don’t think how... We don’t talk how we think. We think how we talk. And language is one of the ways in which we’re programmed.

DI:  A massive, massive way.

BR:  As George Orwell pointed out in 1984.

DI:  Programming the computer. But what are words? They’re vibrational fields. So, again, even the words... The programmers are actually coming in at a vibrational level, a waveform level, and they’re only decoded into language when they pass though the brain construct.

BR:  That’s true.

DI:  So everything gets in, that plays out-here, gets in at vibrational level. That’s why we need to get to that level of ourselves and clear ourselves out because that’s where all the patterns are put in.

And I use this analogy in my talks, that, you know, a ball, its natural place in a tank of water is on the top, just floating away. It’s a natural state. Free. Going like... 

If you want to put the ball in an unnatural state in the tank, you’ve gotta put in on the bottom of the tank and you’ve gotta hold it there. You can’t put it there and it’ll stay there because it’s not its natural state. Its natural state is floating on the top. Our natural state is being conscious.

So what their manipulation has had to do is -- and this says something about the true scale of who we are -- it has had to bombard us with so many multi-level systems of control, diversion, and manufactured ignorance, to symbolically hold the ball on the bottom. And it hasn’t succeeded.

KC:  Actually, they’re mounting, these systems of control. That’s what the move towards a Fascist state and a world government is all about.

I actually heard an interview with you in which you talked about that fact. You see, the fact that we are - to use your analogy, which is a very good one - we are Consciousness and as that ball we are moving as a group towards the surface of the water. We’re actually getting out of their grasp.

DI:  Right.

KC:  As that happens, they’re intensifying their game to want to keep that ball down and so that’s why the stakes are rising on both sides.

DI:  Couldn’t agree more.

KC:  And what’s going to happen is... Look at the natural, I mean, even the metaphor is perfect because what’s going to happen ultimately, the water and the ball are going to win. OK? There’s no way that those forces... As much as they intensify, sometime, somewhere that ball is going to get to the surface, like it or not, The Powers That Be.

DI:  Yeah.

KC:  Now, what’s going to be interesting is if they actually start understanding on a deeper level than power and their power-over because “I’ve got the clue” and “I’ve got the key”. That’s what the Illuminati, you know, that’s what they think.

They think: If you don’t get it, then we can hold you down. You deserve to be held down. That’s actually their... I’m sure you know this. This is their rationale.

So what happens when we, because we’re greater than our bodies... the Consciousness that we are is greater than what they are because they’re on limitation, start to win in their own mind? You see? And they start to let go.

Because this is what’s probably happening. There have to be many members that have been under the thumb of this game and have joined and are being, you know, will be patted on the head and given all the reinforcement necessary to keep them in the game. What happens when they start to see the light, so to speak?

DI:  And some of them, I’m sure, already are, because there’s nothing more fiercely compartmentalized than this whole control structure itself.

There’s so many people within the control structure, right down into mainstream society, that are daily contributing to this gathering Fascist global state, who have no idea of the true implications of it. Or, as they go up higher and higher, have been mislead about the nature of themselves, reality, and the force behind it.

KC:  So the nature of the chaos and the destruction will actually work in the favor of releasing the ball because what happens is, during chaos you can change sides, you see. You can actually, you know... It’s really hard to maintain control during a time of destruction.

DI:  Yeah. I agree. What I would say is that the ball will get to the top of the water when the ball realizes that it is the water. [Kerry laughs]

And the scale of the movement and the speed of movement of this conspiracy now as it puts in more and more surveillance, more and more control, more and more centralization of power, etcetera...I’ve been saying for years now that is not about even gathering more power. It is about defending the control that’s already there. Because they understand.

I mean, if I can go to a psychic in England in 1990 to be told through this psychic that this vibrational change was coming, was going to create a spiritual revolution... I mean, are the Illuminati families not going to know that this spiritual change, this vibrational alarm clock is coming? Of course they are and they’ve known about it for a long time.

And so, what we’re looking at is a... I mean, when you lose the power -- from “We’re in control and we’re going to get more power” to “We must impose more and more control to stop this happening” -- they’re not in a, if you like, a pro-active situation now as they push this Orwellian state on.

They’re in a defensive situation, trying to keep the lid on human ignorance as this vibrational change brings it to the surface.

BR:  Yeah.

DI:  And, you know, compared with Consciousness, this Illuminati... I mean, they’re flies on an elephant’s back, you know, and they’re gonna get removed.

I think it’s not about winning the game, and it’s not about losing the game. It’s about realizing the nature of the game, and the fact that it’s not about winning and losing, it’s just about experiencing.

And as these pyramids of control, certainly the lower levels first, start getting picked off by this vibrational change, and people start to see things differently, you know...

As I’ve been saying for 20 years, look at a pyramid. The capstone’s the place of the power. No it’s not. The capstone’s up there because the rest of the pyramid’s holding the bugger up there. The rest of the pyramid moves away, where’s the capstone gonna go? It’s gonna crash to the floor. There’s nothing holding it up. We are holding up the structure that is our own control system.

I used to tell a story years ago. You’ll remember, Bill; Larry Grayson, a comedian in the UK. Right?

BR:  Yes.

DI:  I knew Larry towards the end of his life. He used to do big shows on the BBC and I was invited to his memorial service at Covent Garden after he died.

There’s another comedian in Britain called Roy Hudd, and he did this presentation about Larry’s life. He told this story, and I sat there and I felt: Whoooo, that is so profound when applied to what we’re talking about.

Roy Hudd said that Larry Grayson had told him this story, that in the days of music hall-type theater or the last vestiges of it, Larry was in an all-male show going around Britain. And he was the woman in it, because he used to dress up as a woman, Larry.

The final scene of the show, or the final part of the show, was all the men ran on the stage dressed as sailors, singing Rule Britannia. You know, [sings] Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves, and all that stuff. You know, Britain has to rule everything.

Anyway, so as this song’s reaching its climax, all these sailors climb on each other’s backs and form a pyramid on the stage. Right? And then Larry Grayson came on dressed as Britannia, with the gown and the helmet and the sword, and was manhandled up to the top of the pyramid of these men, you know, the big finish with the sword.

And he said, one night things seemed to be going rather well, he said, until one of the sailors in the bottom left-hand corner got a cough. Right? And the cough got worse and worse and worse until he couldn’t hold his place in the pyramid anymore. And he’s standing on the stage at the bottom of the pyramid, this guy. You know. Ethel Jones and Charlie Smith.

And in the end he couldn’t hold it anymore because the cough got too bad, and he had to step out of the pyramid. What happened was, Larry Grayson at the top, symbolic of this Illuminati, ended up in the second row [Bill laughs] because the whole pyramid collapsed because one little guy on the left-hand bottom corner got a cough.

BR:  Yes. Lovely.

DI:  You know, pyramid power, in one way, is all roads from the base of the pyramid lead up to the point of the pyramid, and that’s how they control.

BR:  The thing that I would like to connect up with here... It’s so interesting what you’re saying and we passionately agree with your thesis here. And one of the things which I love about your work is that it’s like, in order to control, rather, one good way to control somebody is to lie to them. And therefore, if you’re being lied to, and someone is trying to control you, these things are intimately connected.

DI:  Right.

BR:  And we are being convinced that this reality is all that there is, that these are just animated hunks of meat that last three score years and ten, and then that’s our lot. And then either we’re pushing up daisies or we go to heaven or go to hell, which is another trap and another lie.

DI:  Absolutely.

BR:  And meanwhile there’s some fascinating things going on behind the scenes. And, as you must have known from your own research and your own contacts and your own conversations that you’ve got a magical component to the controllers -- meant in the real definition of the word magic -- black magic ceremonies, rituals, sacrifices, all kinds of things that you and I don’t want to know about. But actually this is part of the truth of the matter. This is what they do. They evoke djinns. They do strange things.

DI:  Yeah. I was getting an enormous amount of stuff about that in the late ’90s.

BR:  And it’s not pleasant to look at, and it’s real. And then there’s another aspect to this, which is something that’s been coming at us quite a lot from Black Projects insiders, which is not the black magic, but the black technology, which was well stated by Richard Hoagland, who told us that he’d had a phone call from an insider who said that “They would rather lose an American city than give up their new physics”.

And this new physics... We were told by somebody who we met in Thailand in October; we’ve given him the pseudonym of Jake Simpson. We know the guy very well. He said that the state of black physics at the moment is... When I say black physics, it’s like secret physics, as in Black Operations.

DI:  Yeah.

BR:  Those guys are not all evil people, but they’re on the inside and they’re playing these games with all the resources and all the knowledge that is denied the public domain.

DI:  Right.

BR:  [Black physics is] ten thousand years ahead of public sector physics, they say, accelerating away from public sector knowledge at the rate of 1000 years a year. I checked those figures with him. That’s a lot of zeroes. Ten thousand years ahead! And he told us, for instance, that the technology exists to phase-shift soldiers, Special Forces soldiers, so that they can walk through walls.

DI:  I’ve heard that, a few years ago.

BR:  You’ve heard that?

DI:  Yeah.

BR:  That’s... Yeah. It’s an interesting corroboration. These little stories pop up here and there in different researchers.

DI:  I think the thing is, Bill, that the reason for the fast acceleration is there’s a critical point where you understand reality, and from that point the potential just absolutely soars. Whereas, because of the suppression of science in the public arena, they’re nowhere near, yet, that line where the potential soars.

So in the secret projects they’ve crossed that line and therefore they’re accelerating away, at the rate you talk about, from mainstream scientific understanding.

BR:  That’s exactly right.

KC:  And there’s other dimensional intelligences who have gotten to that point.

DI:  Absolutely right.

KC:  It’s really a key. And ETs -- negative, you know, service-to-self ETs, basically -- that they’re working with, and certainly becoming aware of the veil behind the veil.

Because you can talk about Consciousness and Mind as we have here, but if you want to lay out, you know, if you want to understand what’s really going on, you do have to talk about ETs and you have to talk about interdimensional entities and also...

DI:  Sure.

KC:  ...entities that don’t have physical bodies.

DI:  Sure. That’s what I was saying earlier. We’ve got to do this on all levels because it’s operating on all levels.

BR:  The best presentation which I heard of the answer to one of the most important questions -- and I can’t remember whether it was yourself or Jordan Maxwell, or perhaps both, who said:

How could humans do the things that they do to other humans on this planet, as they seem to really be doing? How could we be trashing this planet, our home, in the way that we are, at the behest of the controllers? How could humans be doing this?

And the answer is that actually they’re not human at the highest level. Is this something that you said, or was that Jordan Maxwell?

DI:  That’s the thing that I’ve been talking about for a while because, you know, this reality... We keeping talking about different levels. This reality obviously operates on different levels. You’ve got the wave vibrational level. You’ve got the electromagnetic level. You’ve got the visible light level. And you’ve got the digital level.

And when you talk about the level of advancement and potential that you mentioned earlier, it is a cinch to... if you look at where the development of Artificial Intelligence is moving now within this Stone Age level of awareness, imagine what is possible at the cutting edge of the secret projects, and even beyond that, in the realms of the non-human levels of this.

They have, without question, the ability to create Artificial Intelligence that looks to our... in the decoded world, because I’m decoding you now. What you are is a vibrational field.

So if you can create a vibrational field with Artificial Intelligence that is vibrating externally in the same form, range, that a human body is, this... Basically it’s a biological computer human body, but what’s animating it is different to what animates ours. Then I’m going to decode you or I’m going to decode this Artificial Intelligence, just like the lady in the red dress in The Matrix movie.

KC:  Exactly.

DI:  And she’s going to look just like you and me. I remember being in that ayahuasca state in 2003 and that female voice said to me: If you programmed a computer to abuse a child, would the computer have any emotional consequence for that, any emotional reaction? None. It would just do what it’s programmed to do.

And one of the most blatant things about these Illuminati bloodlines is they have no empathy. They have no ability to empathize with the consequences for others of their actions. That’s why there are no limits. You know, pepper-bombing Baghdad. To us, horrific. Terrific emotional consequence. To them, nothing. Just like a computer.

And they are like computers. And to a large extent, that’s why some of them are so bright, you know. My computer on my desk can work things out quicker than I can in some areas, where it’s just, you know, working out to a program. It has no wisdom. It has no empathy. It has no heart or Consciousness, but on a mental level it can work very quickly.

And these people are very sharp mentally. There’s no doubt about it. Some of these people are very sharp mentally. But they have no heart, no balancing qualities of Consciousness.

I’m convinced they’re Artificial Intelligence. When I look at someone like Kissinger, I mean, I see an Artificial Intelligence that has been created by a very, very advanced knowledge and it looks just like you and me because that’s the way we decode it, you know.

And you know, again, Bill, when you were talking about their rituals and what have you, what are the rituals doing? It’s all about creating a vibrational field. They’re creating an energetic environment that allows these interdimensional entities to move into this dimension, at least briefly. And what they’re also doing is accessing through these rituals the vibrational level of reality, which is the prime level of reality, which we decode into this.

So, what they’re doing on one level with these rituals -- which they often do at vortex points, which are very powerful in affecting the vibrational state of the planet. The communication lines, like meridian lines that we have in the body, the planet has.

If they do a ritual where a lot of these lines meet, then the vibrational effect of that ritual is going out down these lines and they’re affecting us because we’re being affected by that vibrational level, that prime level. So I’ve no doubt at all they’ve got technology, too, that is creating disharmony within the vibrational level of this reality, which then will create disharmony here, you know?

And the thing is though... I remember that scene in The Matrix - because people read things in different ways. I read Neo’s journey as becoming conscious. I think that’s probably what they meant, but that’s the way I read it, very powerfully.

There was a point where he’s in a simulation with the Morpheus character, and Morpheus is explaining about the Agents. Now, for Agents read people that you’re talking about that have the ability to do incredible things within this reality ’cause they understand how it works and they keep it from the people.

BR:  Right.

DI:  And people who’ve watched The Matrix will remember the scene because the Agent, Agent Smith, is in freeze-frame in this thing, with a gun. And the Morpheus character says to Neo: People have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air. But their strength and their speed is still based on a world based on rules. And because of that, they can never be as fast or as strong as you can be.

BR:  Right.

DI:  Because within this virtual reality, there are rules to the game. Some of them are called laws of physics and such like. Consciousness overcomes those laws, does not recognize them, is not entrapped by them. So as we become conscious, we move beyond the box that the controlling force is actually in.

During my talks I put two boxes. One’s got, symbolically, a reptilian on it. On a smaller one it’s got humans on it. What they’ve done, and the whole foundation of how it’s been possible... Because they’re in a box. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing.

KC:  Absolutely.

DI:  And if they’re Artificial Intelligence, they’re obviously in a box with a lid on that doesn’t open. But they manage to control human society by putting humans in a smaller box than they’re in.

Again we come back. Symbolic of the box, they’re holding the ball on the bottom of the tank. As we become conscious, we go beyond their potential, and that’s what they’re terrified of.

BR:  Let me tell the story about Bill Birnes and Admiral George Hoover. I don’t know if you’ve heard this one, but we’d love to tell this one on camera.

DI:  OK.

BR:  Bill Birnes, Los Angeles-based editor of UFO Magazine, talked to Admiral George Hoover from the Office of Naval Intelligence before he died, when he was an elderly man. He had one of these turn-around experiences when he was very old, and he started to talk to Bill Birnes about what was really going on.

Bill Birnes wanted to know about things like the Roswell crash, all of this stuff. And one of the things that George Hoover told Bill Birnes was that the Roswell crash, the Visitors there, they were time travelers. They were us from the future, time-traveling future humans, which we‘ve heard from other sources as well.

The most important thing, though, the biggest secret, was how powerful we are, the Consciousness we have, the ability that we have. And Bill Birnes’ words from George Hoover were: Our ability to manipulate the Consciousness around us. And if we started to do that, as far as the controllers were concerned, we would create havoc.

And this is what must not be known. It must not be known how powerful we are. Because the time-traveling future humans used their Consciousness in order to bridge these dimensions.

What these disks are, according to Hoover, and also according to Philip Corso, who wrote The Day after Roswell, is that they are sort of like amplifiers and focusing devices of Consciousness, and the pilots are an integral part of the machine.

And as any quantum physicist will tell you, it’s Consciousness that actually has the ability to determine whether Schrödinger’s cat is alive or dead, to determine probabilistic quantum outcomes, to actually influence reality. You can’t do quantum physics without taking account of Consciousness.

Therefore this means if you have a very high control, an ability in that realm, it sort of bridges Mind and Consciousness. Then, just as great adepts are said to be able to do, you can bi-locate. So, OK. So we’ll do it all together. We’ll do it in a craft. It’ll help us. It’ll amplify us.

And this is what the crafts are. And this is why they were baffled when they opened up these things. They couldn’t find an engine.

DI:  That female voice in the ayahuasca experiences said to me: Why do you fly in a plane when you’re only flying through yourself?

BR:  [laughs] Exactly.

DI:  And what came to mind when you were talking there, Bill, was the carry-on of that scene in The Matrix with Agent Smith, where he’s saying: He’ll never be as strong and fast as you can be.

And then the Neo character says: Do you mean I’ll be able to dodge bullets?

No, Neo. When you’re ready, you won’t have to.

Controlling your experience, you know. You don’t have to dodge bullets. You’re going to make sure no-one ever shoots at you.

BR:  You aren’t in a position where you have to dodge bullets.

DI:  Yeah. And you know, people have said to me so many times over the years, right from the early days: Why aren’t you dead? And it may sound... you know... I can only say what I know deep inside: They can’t. They can’t. They can’t. They can’t. They can’t.

If we were coming to do something, and all it took was someone to shoot a bullet and it’s all over, what’s the point? They can’t.

What I would say very strongly, and it’s coming more and more into my life, there is an x-factor which I don’t understand yet but I sure as hell know it’s there. And it’s an x-factor which is going to bring an end to this childish playground nonsense of human control.

BR:  Do you mean an external influence?

DI:  There’s something. Something. I absolutely, at a deep level, I know it. And whenever I think about it, whenever I’ve been clear about what I’m talking about now, what I see clearly is the planet with a cell / prison around it, and a big lock, and a key going in.

And I’ll tell you a funny story. Well, not a funny story. I’ll tell you a story. I was feeling so strongly about this about two weeks ago, and immediately after, I went on the internet and I’m going through, I’m looking for a picture for my talk. And in front of me was a planet in a prison cell, with a big lock on it, which said Master on it, and a key.

That x-factor, that master key, it’s coming. It’s coming. And it’s not going to come like cavalry to save everything, but it is a big factor in... I’m absolutely convinced that the end of this prison society is a done deal. I think the outcome is going to happen. I think it’s meant to happen.

We’re now seeing, and it will go on for a while, but we’re now seeing the last throes of a dying system where the Illuminati in their box are believing they’re crashing the system to create something else, when it’s actually crashing, ultimately, for another reason.

BR:  Is there a real danger? Because you’ve got a cornered tiger that is at its most dangerous when it’s cornered. Is that possible?

DI:  Oh, these people in their panic are going to thrash out in all bloody directions. But, you know, that’s just part of this transition from where we are to where we’re going.

And the thing is, you know, you can look at the news and you can see the conspiracy moving on. In Britain it’s just getting ridiculous.

But what you don’t see on the news, and therefore it’s not in your awareness, is how fast the awakening from the amnesic sleep is moving on. And it’s moving on dramatically quickly.

I’m not saying that tomorrow the sun’s gonna come up and everything’s gonna be fine, you know. We’re deeply into a transitional period here and there’s going to be a lot of challenges, and this thing’s going to move on further. But the outcome, I think, is a done deal. This is going down, and then we can start to create a new society based on Consciousness values rather than the limitations of Mind.

And I would just say this, because I think this is important. From my point of view it’s important. I think, you know, there’s a great danger that this 2012 thing is going to be a massive, massive diversion.

BR:  It’s a spiritual Y2K.

DI:  [laughs] That’s what I call it, actually, a spiritual Y2K, myself. And me, of all people, who saw a psychic in 1990 and was told a vibrational change was coming. I, of all people, should be saying: Yeah, look! 2012. That’s it. It’s more evidence of vibrational change, the transformation! I cannot sync with that at all.

What’s slightly concerning is the number of emails I get, and other people I know, their websites get, of people saying: What’s the point of doing anything ’cause it’s all gonna change in 2012?

BR:  Automatically.

DI:  That’s like Obama selling hope, which is always the horse in front on the carousel. No matter how fast you go around, you never get closer to the horse in front. That’s what hope does. What hope is, especially in the way Obama uses it, and what 2012 has the deep potential of becoming, is a holding-position, where people who could be doing something now just wait around. Again, what is 2012 symbolically? It’s the cavalry coming.

BR:  Exactly.

DI:  Hey! Hey! The cavalry’s here! It’s not coming. It’s here.

KC:  Right.

DI:  The cavalry needs to get on its horse, incidentally, and stop waiting for another one to come.

KC:  Exactly. I mean it’s like Neo in the place where he’s at, where he realizes that he has the ability to become All-That-Is, and therefore bullets pass through him because he’s no longer There-there.

DI:  Right.

KC:  He’s actually everywhere. I mean, I know it’s words, but in a sense that is the key that we all hold. And what’s happening in a sense is, with the wave, there’s actually a facilitation that’s happening.

We’ve been told by various people, but one in particular, Jake Simpson, who has been on the inside, talks about regardless of how you view the future, this wave of energy is actually coming towards our planet, or you could view it as our planet, solar system, is moving into this energy. It is coming.

So it’s like if you’re surfing and you know a wave is coming, there’s whole groups of people on the planet getting ready to ride the wave. And so in a sense they have to have the key in order to ride the wave. In a sense you could say the surfboard, the Consciousness, the key to understanding who they are and what Consciousness really is and how they are united, which is part of the key.

DI:  Yeah.

KC:  Because we are united. You see, if we know that we are everywhere, and we’re totally linked up... See, I’m in this body right now, you’re in that body right now, and between us it looks like there’s empty space. But in reality this is Consciousness, this space is incorporated, so there is actually no break between you and I and Bill here. We’re all in this sea of Consciousness.

BR:  We’re three tips of the same iceberg.

DI:  That’s why becoming conscious is the bottom line of everything. If we don’t become conscious and move into these realms of understanding this sort of stuff you’re talking about -- that we’re all one Consciousness experiencing itself subjectively; life is only a dream; matter is just energy condensed to a slower vibration, as Bill Hicks used to say --unless we come from this perspective, then...

What’s the key thing of any dictatorship? It’s divide and rule. And so, the whole basis of what they’re doing is taking Consciousness, Consciousness, Consciousness, Consciousness, and dividing it in upon itself.

You know, what we’re seeing here is, basically, Consciousness so manipulated that it’s at war with itself because it’s come to so... it’s been brought to such a low level of awareness compared with its potential.

And so the spiritual and the streetwise, the five-cents conspiracy and the understanding of the nature of reality, they’ve got to go together. And you know, for too long they’ve been apart.

People say: Oh spiritual. That’s New Age. Oh yeah, that’s credible. Spiritual? That’s New Age. Is that credible? And all that stuff. They have to come together because as one unit they’re unstoppable. Apart, again, divide and rule; they have a fraction of their potential power for change. If people come from the heart, they’ll know what to do.

BR:  Exactly.

DI:  If people come from their head, it will tell them a long list of things why there’s nothing they can do or why there’s no point in doing them.

We’re at a fork in the road, you know, symbolically, because it’s a balance of the two that we’re looking for, ideally, here. But symbolically it’s a choice between the head and the heart. It’s a head-domination or a heart-domination of our sense of reality.

If we take the heart route, then this world will transform from a manifestation of Mind to a manifestation of Consciousness. It has to because this is just a projection. This [out-there] has to follow what goes on here [in-here].

If we take the choice of Mind, then we’re going to live in a global version of Nazi Germany. My strong feeling is, although we’re going to go closer to a global version of Nazi Germany, ultimately the whole thing will collapse because the awakening will cease to hold it together.

BR:  If you were a betting man, what would you say the timescale of events, the rollout, will be over the next one, two, three, five, ten years? If you were a historian, what do you think you’d be writing about?

DI:  I’d say - and I’m probably being optimistic - I’d say we would live in a global version of Nazi Germany within ten years if we take that route [the head]. If we take that route [the heart], we’ll in ten years’ time be deeply into a transition to a very different world. It’s just a choice.

But this x-factor is going to help us to change the world to one that I would like to live in. I don’t know what the x-factor is, but I know it’s coming. It’ll be fine.

BR:  Wonderful.

KC:  Well thank you, David.

DI:  Thanks, Kerry.

KC:  Fabulous.

DI:  It’s been a pleasure. Thanks, Bill.

BR:  Thank you so much.

DI:  Cheers.

KC:  Looking forward to the future.

DI:  Yeah.

BR:  That’s a good wrap.

KC:  And the future is now.

BR:  And the future is now.

DI:  And always was.

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