Jim Sparks:

Interview transcript

This page is a reformatted version of the original Project Camelot publication.


Jim Sparks and The Keepers
A video interview with Jim Sparks

Las Vegas, June 2007


Shot, edited and directed by Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan

Start of interview

Bill Ryan: Jim Sparks, we're delighted to be talking with you today. I'm Bill Ryan; I'm half of the team with Kerry Cassidy that's Project Camelot. One of the things that we do is we present different jigsaw puzzle pieces of what is a very large picture. There are a lot of people out there watching this video now, who'll be as interested in putting these together as you are and we are.

Jim Sparks: Okay.

B: Now, we're talking to you today because from what we understand you have one or two possible significant pieces, to present to people, so that they can fit it into the puzzle if they can, so we can fit it into the puzzle if we can. We're speaking to you because you are what has been described in the UFO community as a fully conscious multiple abductee. That's the shortest sentence I can fit it all in.

J: That's a good way to put it.

B: Could you put your own description on to that? What do you feel your contribution to this puzzle is?

J: In brief, interaction has been going on for approximately 19 years. The first six years were ambiguous, no frame of reference, couldn't understand. I would say that would be akin to what most abductees go through. Except again it was 95%, 98% total conscious recall that it came with.

B: At a guess, how many abductions have you experienced?

J: Hundreds.

B: Hundreds?

J: Many hundreds.

B: Many hundreds? That's a lot!

J: Many hundreds.

B: Would you say, once again, in your experience that this is likely to have been exceptional, or are many abductees also having experienced hundreds of abductions, but they don't remember any of them? Is that possible?

J: I think part of the latter is there's a lot of truth based in that because I've seen mass abductions with hundreds of people and in these mass abductions the people's memories are taken away towards the end. Primarily in the mass abductions that I've seen, they primarily involve what are commonly referred to as Grays. They're getting environmental lessons. That's over a 19 year period.

B: What do you mean environmental lessons? What do you mean by that?

J: An awareness of the acute situation we're in with the environment. Primarily what they do in these abduction scenarios, particularly the mass ones with this particular agenda, which is global, is to heighten the awareness of how beautiful the planet is and how beautiful the planet was, by different sorts of frames of pictures for them to get, and then they gradually turn sour as to what we're doing to the planet. They're informed that the planet is dying. I believe they're also getting what I know I've gotten, an assignment, so to speak. You don't have to do it. They receive this assignment in the subconscious, and in the conscious frame of mind. The conscious frame memory is taken away before they go back. I think it'll reach the point of critical mass globally with this message, whereas as they go around their normal life, some may have fragmented memories of the abduction, some may not have any at all. We're talking tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or maybe into the millions or more people globally.

B: Globally?

J: Globally. But it'll get to the point where it's critical mass, where the timing, if the timing's just perfect, I think a lot more memory will start coming out as to what you're supposed to do. So there seems to be a drive with abductees....

B: Is this part of a long, term program?

J: Yes.

B: A major long, term program?

J: Yes, one particular agenda, yes.

B: And the agenda, this is just my clarification of what you are saying, the agenda is an educational one? Except that they have a particular style of teaching that may not be like the kind of thing we want to put our own kids through?

J: It's no doubt teaching, but its not a teaching lesson, its actually to take action. Now I've seen this flower in myself, with consciousness of what's going on. I've seen this flower in an individual that I happened to see, and interact with intimately on board for a couple of hours, and then seeing this individual here at home over the years, getting this environmental message the way the rest of them did. Not commenting on I know who he is.... and we befriended each other, and I can go on with that... but we're friends.

B: Even though he had no memory of his experience, you kept quiet about it, noticing what had happened and then you saw him change his attitudes, change his behavior, and start to take action with certain projects....

J: Absolutely.

B: You saw... which was EXACTLY what their program was designed for.

J: Exactly. And then interestingly enough, there were innuendos throughout the early stages of our interaction here, where he did share with me, I remember this, or I got this, or he had fragmented memories, like most abductees, and I had to bite my tongue knowing who the person was. Well, now he knows who I am and is fully bloomed. That is a major agenda.

Now for me personally as most abductees, but it was a six year period, of living hell, because I didn't have a frame of reference. I didn't understand what was going on. They didn't make anything clear. So I don't want to say I was trained. I don't likeI haven't found the proper word for it. Kind of like an alien boot camp.

B: Indoctrinated, would that be a better word?

J: Yes! So you know how to behave. Bottom line. Because you're dealing with creatures that are non-human intelligence. They're ten to a hundred times faster in the mind. They've got the high technology. They can travel time, they can span the universe with no time passing. They can work with other dimensions and these people or beings are so far removed from what we are, particularly socially. They definitely don't have any social skills as far as we're concerned. They traumatize you. Interaction is trauma in every way, shape and form. It's a better thing that the memory is taken away from people, and maybe it comes back to them slowly, so they can cope and deal with it.

But in that first six years it was, ambiguity, paradox, and learning symbols. The point that there is that I had no frame of reference to understand what was going on. The second set of six years or seven years was when I was turned loose on board, where I got to see agendas. Now I knew how to behave. A, I wasn't gonna kill them. B, I wasn't gonna go around tearing up the ship. C, I wasn't going to be disruptive, I wasn't gonna... as I was that first six years. I was paralyzed for the most part. So now I got to see things that they were doing.

B: Now, this is very strange because it's like after this time, after you had been a rebel in their terms, it's like you didn't want to cooperate. You were yelling and screaming at them. You were angry. You were outraged...

J: Right.

B: ...that these things were happening to you against your will, but then they seemed to take you into their confidence, almost to help them with their program. I mean this is a paradox.

J: Yes, but it was necessary. I mean you really... I'm not justifying them. I don't claim... and you've heard me say this before, and I'm gonna say it now, I don't claim to embrace alien culture. I have a healthy suspicion of all their motives at all times. I don't just swallow it and say, "That's how it is". But I let it play itself out. It's the only wise thing to do. What I'm finding is it is playing itself out and I am seeing signs and they are positive, they're not negative.

B: Would it be fair then to describe this as a kind of positive brainwashing? That's my take on what you seem to be having. And once again that's a paradox as well, because one doesn't really associate the term "brainwashing" as being anything positive at all.

J: Of course.

B: But there is something about this being against people's free will.

J: Right.

B: The intention seems to be positive because the idea is to shock or push people into taking more responsibility for our planet and our environment than we have been doing. Is this just because they're purely altruistic or is there some self-interest involved?

J: There's definitely self-interest and there's definitely benefits to us. But addressing the brainwashing aspect of it, clearly it's there. Clearly it's forced upon one. Now, that's something that took me several years to grasp why it had to be that way. Because they are so far removed from what we are. We're talking about species of non-human intelligence that are literally thousands of years in some cases, ahead of us technically. Thousands of years ahead of already figuring things out and, who have evolved. They've joined, so to speak, the galactic neighborhood. They've conquered things like death, some of them have. Their life spans are phenomenal, and I think it's also transformed physically as that wears out to another body form.

B: That's what we've heard.

J: They have many thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years of experience in a data bank in their minds. It's cohesive, it's practical, it works as a group, and when you have something like that, that has something in mind, you're killing your planet and it sees a problem with time.

B: Is it "our" planet or is it "their" planet?

J: (Laughing) There are some things there that are hard to swallow that I didn't enjoy because I use to scream in those early years "why me, why me, why me, why me ...." And I didn't get an answer, and it took five more years to do it, and the bottom line is... Grays and this particular species... I'm not speaking for all of them... very close to the face I saw here earlier [referring to Bill Holden's model alien head, see later in the interview] ... claim to have genetically altered these ape-like creatures, which I've seen, in a holographic form, not in the physical. It's the time thing... anyway, they took frames of certain time periods, and I got to see what it was like. Perhaps maybe a few million years ago, maybe a few hundred thousand years ago. These ape-like creatures that don't quite look like a monkey, don't quite look like a person, they claim they genetically altered to make us what we are today.

B: Are you saying that you experienced this a bit like a Star Trek holodeck? Like a kind of... like you're in there....

J: No, No.

B: OK, sorry. Just explain to us how it is that you experienced this.

J: What we could commonly refer to as a.... like a computer image, only projected out like a hologram. So you would see it in a frame, and it was many of these hologram-type frames, square frames, that would hang in the air. I've seen many many thousands of these frames during these experiences.

B: So it's like three-dimensional wide screen TV, and you're right in front of it?

J: Yes.

B: Okay. Got it.

J: And depending on how significant it is, brings in dimension. Now I'm getting into a detailed aspect. If it's two-dimensional, it can almost be like a flat thing, like if it was a sketch, but sketched... a snapshot sketch. If it had significance or more importance, then it took on some depth. But these ape-like things, according to them they claim, that they genetically manipulated to make us what we are today, which is a part of them, according to them, and a part of what's naturally here.

B: So we've been gene-spliced with them?

J: If you want to say gene-spliced. How exactly they do it, I don't know.

B: I don't even know... that's a technical term.

J: I think, you know, one day, that will come out. I kinda have a suspicion on how. But nonetheless, I know it's contrary to religion, philosophy, things of that nature... so that's why I say I was actually very angry for many years over that, but I'm not any more.
That gives them a sense, a right, I don't want to say an ownership, that's not the exact word... there's a responsibility there, even though I'm not very proud of their record as far as being invisible, interaction with us, ambiguous, not knowing what they are, keeping themselves hidden. If you look at things like the Holocaust and the things of that nature, and atomic explosions, and what we've been doing war after war... you could think... they're not really taking responsibility. Well I know better now. I understand why.

B: There's a book that you wrote, called The Keepers.

J: Correct.

B: Why did you call it The Keepers?

J: Well, it was initially going to be called The Star People. For years, in those early years, I wanted to know who they were and they don't like to answer questions for various different reasons. There was a time that I got what struck me with the Star People thing was I had a... I used to in the early years have to make symbols, would have to do exercises and they would extract semen. And they'd do all this traumatic stuff, and if I was a good laboratory mouse, there would be reward sessions... it was punishment and reward... where I could get questions answered. There was a time I knew where I had done particularly well, and it was in those early years. So I got to ask a question and I knew I was gonna get an answer.

B: This is your reward, to be able to ask a question? (Bill laughs) Okay, go on.

J: And my question was, "who the hell... who are you? And the response was, "star people". Now I did not like that answer as a person, because I felt like, "what, do you think I'm a monkey, I'm an idiot?", you know, "star people", what are you saying? It, sounds like some 1950's science fiction, yeah, star people. But interestingly enough about this intelligence is, some of the answers or most of the answers are so simple and to the point, that it's hard as a human being to accept something simple.

B: Yeah, I think I'm with you here. The key word there is "people".

J: People.

B: Yeah, people.

J: So, Star People. So I understood what they meant. They considered themselves people and when they first told me that, I got on their butts. Hard.

B: (chuckles) Right.

J: ‘Cause I'm a people, you're not a people, you're a people (points to Bill) you're a people, (points to camera) you're not, how dare you call yourselves a people! But over time, I started breaking down the meaning that, yes, they're from the stars, they consider themselves to be people or persons, or beings, but they just use the term "people". And they travel time, they travel dimension, they've been doing it for tens of thousands of years. So there's no real base for them any more, so to speak. Not to say there's something wrong with that. It was a perfect answer.

Okay. Now, something profound happened that changed it to "The Keepers". I was traveling from Naples, Florida to Fort Meyers Beach where I was living at Fort Meyers Beach at the time, and halfway through that route, I saw something just phenomenal. Which is not unusual for the technology they have. But I saw a craft that looked like a sailboat. Meaning that I saw a sail, and it was going across the road, about half a mile or three quarters of a mile from me. Now, I lived in an area at that time where there was water, and it's not uncommon for there to be a sailboat.

And as I was watching this sail, and as I'm driving down the road, and I'm watching the sail go across the road, I then realized I know this part of the area, there's no water here, there's no bridge here, and I'm looking at something as if it was just going through the road. Well it was the top of what I call a diamond shaped ship, which is like a pyramid on top. So again, the laws of physics as we don't understand it, don't apply. That's why some of these things seem to pass through solid matter. They seem... there's reports that they fly into volcanoes... then there's all these other things of this nature. They can create a field. They can do this. That's gonna get your attention.

When I saw that's what it was, it then lifted itself up from the road, into the sky, it was huge, quiet, you couldn't hear a thing, and it was hanging there. And I'm looking at this thing and then the telepathic message was very distinct and very clear. It said: "The Keepers, the Keepers are here to take their people home to a better place."

Now, as that was being said, the image beamed in my head very clear, because they do these kinds of things, because they can transmit thought, transmit vision. I saw inside what looked like almost an atrium, of them collecting every conceivable seed you can imagine of life. Semen, ova, plant seeds, animal extractions, blood, and all categorized and all put in a hi-tech way. So they're collecting this stuff. Now what does that mean, "they're taking their people home to a better place"? They refer to themselves though however, distinctly and clearly as "The Keepers".

Now what I take that ship to be something like a beacon ship, meaning that in the cosmos there is a galactic neighborhood, and they don't fight each other in general. It's telepathic. Even if you have one agenda, they have another agenda, now we're talking about evolved. You in your journeys as a species. Let's say you're a Gray, and let's say I'll be the human being in this case. My journey is in the cosmos. We may come across the path of a ship and we don't know what it's doing. So when that particular ship, which is like a robot ship, so to speak, when it picks up an approach by something that may be part of what it's doing, or not what it's doing, is it identifies itself. And as it identifies itself, then the occupants of that particular craft, and it may be a different species, know, hey, this is a collection ship. This is an automated medical ship. This is one collecting samples, doing this. So they know what it is and they go on their way.

So when I came across this thing, when I'm realizing as time is going by, it picked something up on me, because of interaction with these Grays for 19 years. I've always said there's a residual effect of being around them - the technology, the field, something I radiate, something us abductees may, something as you may - it picked up me as it didn't know what I was in a sense.

B: But they routinely identified themselves to you.

J: Right.

B: Fascinating.

J: Yes, so they call themselves The Keepers. Now interestingly enough, this is why I named the book, "The Keepers". Interestingly enough, was that event triggered these weeks of many abductions and following sightings, in a phenomenal way, with other individuals and strangers that I didn't even know.

So that really struck me well, because, one thing about this business, if you want to call it a business, is it's hearsay. Where it comes to... because be real, it's hearsay.

B: You can't prove a damn thing.

J: Right. However, when you're walking down the beach, and that same thing appears in the sky, and there are many people around you, and it's over the water and people are jumping up and down in excitement, and others are scared, all that took place and several other experiences within a three week period. So the name stuck with me because of the events that followed and that direct, "The Keepers". So it referred to itself as The Keepers.

B: Very striking. Very appropriate. Where is this going, and is there a program on track? From their point of view, if you were their program manager, would you feel, okay, we're doing all right here? Or do you think thatthis planet is in trouble and, they're really having to force the issue to get whatever it is that they want to accomplished from this? What's your take on whether this is working for them?

J: In general and, not to be somewhat specific and, not too vague but somewhat specific.

B: What's your feeling about where this is going? And why?

J: Why? Okay. (Laughing) You've got, again, creatures or non-human intelligent beings who are again, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years ahead. Where they would be, so to speak, socially and how they behave, and have been relative to where we are. They have technology that can take them to the past, that can take them to the future. What I'm getting, in general, is that we do reach a point, because I don't want to be the one that says gloom and doom, and this and that, okay? Claiming the end of the world, I stay away from.

B: But you are also a very honest man in terms of reporting what it is that you've perceived.

J: We do evolve...

B: Okay.

J: ...as a species. We do conquer a lot of things, particularly dying. We do use the tools for time travel. We do span the cosmos to get from point A to point B, without time passing. The good news is we do evolve. The unfortunate news is that only about a handful of us survive it before we repopulate and evolve.

B: Survive what?

J: Well, I would suspect very strongly that since the emphasis on almost every ET non-human intelligent race and species, is on our environment, I suspect something bad's gonna happen there. However, the push from the future to now is to have all six billion of us, at that point close to eight billion of us, survive and evolve into the future and into the galactic neighborhood. It can be changed.

B: At what point? You say at "that" point, eight billion. What point?

J: What point in what respect?

B: Is there a year, do you mean? Or a stage?

J: Okay, here's a very wise thing.

B: Okay.

J: A very, very wise thing. This comes from personal experience, and this comes from me seeing the way these guys are, so to speak. There's nothing worse, and I am not religious, and there's nothing worse than a false prophet, so to speak. Even though there's someone who has seen the future - and I have - and the way they portrayed it is in ways that I can't tell when and what time it is. It's a paradox. But now I'm understanding that in the first few years of this I would always get the holograms of a different time and place, not comprehending what I'm seeing. Now 18-19 years later, I realize that I didn't, I couldn't, know what I was seeing and when, because I would have interfered with it. I would have gotten in my own way with what my place is in this thing. And other abductees and so forth.

B: We want to take a responsible stance in informing people with the best data available, from people's testimony, so that those who can hear, will hear. Those that can't hear, whatever we do, and some people will be able, for them, that will be the prompt for them to take responsible action.

J: Okay.

B: We're not catastrophists, we're not doom mongers. We're not trying to scare anybody.

J: Right.

B: We're right with you. We want all of humanity to make it all the way through. But if there's anyone watching this video now, that says, "my God, you know what, I think I'd better pay attention to things I haven't been paying attention to before," then we will have done our job.

J: I do know what to do, in the early aspects of this thing. Two things. One is amnesty. Now this is not coming from Jim Sparks. This is coming from interaction with these beings over many years. Amnesty meaning that there are agencies that are sanctioned or not sanctioned, commonly refereed to as Black Ops, secret governments, secret clubs, call 'em whatever you might want, who have contractual interaction, human beings with non-human intelligent species and groups, who have developed in line with these creatures, technologies like free energy.

I don't want to sound like a simpleton here, okay? I'm not saying let's all hold hands and buy each other a Coca-Cola, and the world is beautiful and we're at peace, and let's all sing a song together. I want to be as practical as possible. There's nothing wrong with that, but I wanna be practical. There are technologies that will change the face of this planet, as we know it. And for the first time in the history of the human species, we will be able to evolve.

The problem that the species has, I know I see it in your eye, is that we rely too much on outward influence or outside sources to save us. As a species we have a very difficult time looking inward to ourselves and saying,"it's not gonna be God that does it for us". It's not gonna be... I'm not saying there's no God, I'm not saying it's not gonna be a Great Spirit that's gonna do it for us. It's not gonna be all these outside forces. It's us facing ourselves for the first time and doing these things ourselves to join the galactic neighborhood.

B: We have to be the adults and clean up our own house.

J: We have to do it. There's, technologies out there that exist that are secret, free energy, where we don't have to derive so much from our environment. And these technologies are in the possession of these Black Op secret organizations, who in their view, and in their eyes, sanctioned or not - most of them are sanctioned - that they are doing this for the defense and the security of our nation, and other free nations. I'm not just being selfish and saying the United States, but we do, we're up there pretty much at the top with this stuff, okay?

And these things need to be cut loose because we do have the global warming. We do have problems with the rain forest. We do have a problem with pollution in the ocean. And I can go on and on and on with our environmental woes. So these things need to be freed up. Now, in the eyes of these beings that are extremely intelligent and have a lot of experience and have made something very clear. Create an amnesty vehicle where because there is a growing majority in this Black Op or secret government stuff that wants to come forward with this information and these technologies. Quite frankly, they don't wanna die bringing it forward. They don't want to be executed, they don't want to be charged, as unfortunately people have been discredited, murdered, maimed, for the sake of national security, innocent law-abiding citizens, many over the last particularly 40 to 60 years, 50 to 60 years, them coming forward in any way shape or form. Let's be practical here.

Oh, you're responsible for my father's death. Oh, you're responsible for my aunt's death. Oh, you're responsible for this and that, because all that stuff is gonna have to come out with it. These people can't be touched. They're gonna have to be able to... they're gonna have to have a vehicle to come forward 100 per cent and I hate to use the word "forgive", but have to be forgiven and forgotten, so these technologies can come out to save us, and aid in saving us from what we're doing to this planet.

Now. One hands-on project that is particularly... it's like an assignment for me, and others, but for myself is the rain forest project. Now why do I say the rain forest? It's the lungs of the planet, it's the internal organs of the planet. It's how she's able to cleanse and recycle herself. And we've done a lot of damage to her. And now we're injuring the internal organs. Global warming is just a part of it. But the rain forest is extremely important because it's something that we can see, we can see it regress or digress. We can see it expand and come back out again, and healthy. A hands-on project without on a global basis in short, where we can really see what we're doing, where the whole world gets involved, is something that needs to be accomplished.

Once it's accomplished, then we can all know in this globe that there is something we can do as a species, as a whole, all six billion of us, or however many get involved to actually change something so extreme as to where we are going. Which will make it easier to tackle these other challenges. Now, as a species, when they fly by and they look down at us, what they see is a hornet's nest. You have hornets that live a very short life span, you have hornets that are eating and killing each other. You have hornets that are fighting each other and you're looking at hornets that cannot get their act together and never have.

B: And they don't seem to give a damn about the nest.

J: And they don't understand. So the hornets have to face themselves. Not that they're not willing to aid. Remember, these people, these beings, these things, and this is a strong point I'm making here, have been, for tens of thousands of years, if not hundreds of thousands, intervening in any way shape or form, to bring us to evolving. What has been determined, everything under the book has been tried, under the sun, under under the stars. And we're still the same, it's our nature. We have to do it ourselves.

B: Is the future set, or are we only talking about probabilities?

J: If you let the river run, it will run its course and it's set. You can change the course of a river, but what I've learned over the years is, and I've discussed this with you on the side, that I'm learning as I go, the butterfly theory couldn't be any more the opposite. If you put time in a river sense, which is more ambiguous and complex than that, but if you put it in a sense of a strong flowing river, in order to alter a very mighty and powerful river that's gonna run its course and you know where it's gonna go, it take a tremendous amount of energy to make the slightest change. So if you let the river go naturally, the flow of time will keep going.

B: Where is the river headed right now?

J: Well, it's not a straight line.

B: Okay (chuckles) - good answer. But is it heading in a general direction? Are you optimistic?

J: I know I'm optimistic about the part as I said earlier, that a handful relative to the population on the planet now, survive all the upcoming environmental garbage. Only about a handful, relatively speaking. And then past that, we evolve and repopulate.

Now I know the technology, and I'm not saying I claim I can build a time machine, but I've see the technology several times, more than once, and experienced their technology several times, more than once, in many different ways, face to face, of us even coming back from the future, in my face. It's amazing how this thing has evolved from the horror the first six years, and then to an interaction that's fantastic.

However, and it's the same thing: yeah, we make it, but not all of us do before we get there. What do we want to see? We want to see all of us, if not most of us, at least get past that point. This is a very hard thing to do because A, it's hard to change the river of time. It's strong, it's resilient, it wants to snap back. Time, and time once set, wants to stay there.. but it can be [changed]. So unfortunately, we're on a pretty screwed up course, which is self-destruction with our planet.

B: Have you been shown a possible future or a probable future as some kind of a warning? It's like, you know, this is where we're heading if we don't change this river. Have you been shown something like this?

J: Without going into great detail... after we evolve, I think is where I want to go right now, which is [pause] as we understand things now, as see things now, it's fantastic. We can't just sit back and, say, "oh, gee, we do evolve" because we repopulate again, and regroup and so forth. The push is to get us to bring most of us if not all of us there.

B: It gets worse before it get better, and we've got to rise to the challenge.

J: It will, oh absolutely, it will. Oh, but when it will and how it will, it almost doesn't take much imagination. You know if you start looking at CO2 levels, if you start seeing what the rain forest is... I could go on and on with the environmental things. The way out is the fact that we have the brain power, we have the raw resources, we have the technologies that are hidden from us, and for very good reason, for the most part. But from where we're at right now, these things need to come out, and they need to come out and change the face of the Earth as we know it.

B: What's the one message that you would like to leave viewers with if you were in a position to say something everyone would remember, or take note of, or act upon? (Jim laughs) What would that be?

J: Look within yourself and really, really see where we're at. Vision in your mind, vision in your heart, vision in your soul the glow. Vision all of us on it, see us as a species evolved and then think in your mind from where you're at now, to where you see us evolve with all the wonderful things that I've just said. What steps should be taken to get us there, or to get me there, and how can I participate in bringing us there as a species.


B: We have a little piece of videotape here which we recorded just a short while ago, from somebody who obtained a model of a Gray. We would like to know your reactions to this. And this is unprepared, this is live, these are your spontaneous reactions... and just give us your response to this.

J: (Looking at laptop screen) For starters, we did have a phone conversation speaking of the gentleman, Bill Holden, briefly, but in very vague detail describing a little bit about his background. I had asked you during that conversation, which was yesterday, what his interaction was in reality to extraterrestrials. As far as did he see any? And things of that nature? On the phone you mentioned to me yesterday that he was on Air Force One. I believe he said he was a steward. I also believe he said that, as I remember, that he had some interaction with President Kennedy and as you mentioned also, that President Kennedy at the time said, admitted to him that he is aware of extraterrestrials and UFOs and you didn't go into any detail past that.

Then you mentioned briefly that he, Mr. Holden, his involvement had changed in the years: he had some sort of security clearance and that he had pictures perhaps, or he had experienced UFOs, and the vehicles themselves, with aliens standing next to them. I had asked you then, could he describe what they looked like, or could you tell me what he told you? You then said to me something to the effect of, he carries around with him a model, a head, that he said he found at a swamp meet or something like that, or...

B: He basically picked it up.

J: Somewhere along the line. Because it was very close to what he saw, right?

B: Yes, there are particular features on this model that he understands are accurate. This is his understanding. Because of your unique experience, we'd also like to run this past you.

J: This is an honest reaction and I did see on the laptop that particular still version. One thing, that stood out, with me, when we were having the phone conversation, which was what you were exactly about to say. Which was, he said it was a very close replica, but the nose and the mouth were a little less defined on the ET versus that model. First thing I noticed when I sat down was this thing looks very, very close to a species that I've seen. Very close, right up at the face.

So my reaction to that first was there's some authenticity here. Then as I look closer at it, and as I'm looking at it now, that's one of the first things: the nose is not right. The nose is a little too pronounced on this thing. And also, how defined the mouth is. It's different. Now, something that stands out with me when it comes to this particular species of Gray, because it was a situation that really the face is so much... the way the face looked is something in my minf, and something I can't forget.

They have a leather-like texture to their faces and you can see something akin to wrinkles, which defines one individual from another, meaning that I've seen drone beings and these drone beings are the short three foot ones, more or less. Huge heads, huge giant teardrop eyes, skinny necks and so forth. And they're worker bees and I believe them to be half biological and half robotic. They are just to perform tasks. Would it be artificial intelligence? I don't think so, because of the biological aspect of it. Nonetheless, what I would call the true species, or the true alien, are the ones that govern, the "taskmasters". This looks like a "taskmaster". This is what looks like what I would call a true alien.

B: What Bill said was there was a very unusual and pronounced musculature at the back of the head, and that for him was something that indicated to him that whoever it was who created the little model knew exactly what they were doing, and either had some experience, ior some very accurate testimony to work from.

J: (pointing at the musculature on the back of the head shown on the screen) Too pronounced... I would say that it would be... See where it's ridged over here? What I'm seeing that's... I'm not saying that this is not authentic, I'm just saying what I know.

B: Of course.

J: (still pointing at the back of head musculature) This part here wouldn't be so indented, so pronounced here, but it would be more... the contour would be more blended in. With the exception I'm enjoying about this is that these features here, where you're seeing these deep ridges? (still pointing to the same area) Again the face of the particular species that I'm seeing now and intimately have had interaction with, there's a leather-like texture to the face. When it comes to this aspect of the head it would be more refined ridges, a more refined line. What I'm looking at here it comes to mind and I'm just telling you gut reaction. This looks like a model made from one that had been dead.

B: Oh! Right.

J: That's just the gut reaction, and that's "hey, that's how it is". But I'm pleased with the fact that it's not describing the typical face that's smooth, big eyes, the small thin lips, and they all look alike kind of thing. What your seeing here is obviously a creature that has pronounced, defined independent features, like me from you or you from me. Now the face, I'm impressed with the eyes. I've always said if you read my work, in other interviews, whenever I've given talks, that's what I would call a true alien, when I say I just separate it from the robotic beings. When I say true, in that species, the eyes are not nearly as big as the giant teardrop eyes of the worker beings, but they're certainly bigger than ours. So what I'm seeing here in the face are the eyes are very, very good, as far as what I've seen. The nose is not proper, and I find that fascinating again in that he had mentioned that to you and to me. It's the same with the mouth. Again I'm seeing a texture on the face akin to the skin, what with the wrinkles being more refined.

B: Jim, this is absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much. You're the definitive expert around here.

J: Oh Good! (both laughing)



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