Dr. Joseph Farrell:
Laughlin, Nevada, February 2009
Bill Ryan (BR): ...So our job is to help
you get your information out to the maximum amount of people.
Joseph Farrell (JF): Okay.
BR: And the people who do watch this information are
a very eclectic bunch. We’ve got 16-year-old kids who’ve
just woken up last month saying: What’s going on
around here? Tell me. Tell me. And then we’ve got
seasoned researchers like yourself, and even insiders themselves,
who watch our videos to get a feel for what’s really
BR: And so, one of the reasons why we wanted to talk
to you was because you’re a very cogent, lucid and articulate
presenter of some very difficult information. I’m sure
other people have told you that as well, but we recognize that.
BR: And we apologize for putting you under the camera
here, to the extent that you don’t have your slide slow.
[Farrell laughs]. You don’t have any prompts and you
don’t have any notes.
JF: I’ll do shadows. [laughs]
BR: The feeling we had about you is that you have a
very good grasp of your information, and we respect
that as well. So here we go. We’re rolling.
So... I’m Bill Ryan from Project Camelot. I’m
here with my colleague Kerry Cassidy and we’re delighted
to also be here with Joseph Farrell. And off camera just a
few moments ago I checked that it was okay to call you Joe...
JF: Oh, absolutely.
BR: ...‘cause we’re among friends here,
and that makes me feel a little bit more relaxed. You may
be wondering, and some of our viewers may be wondering how
come this is Bill here who’s doing this interview. And
just as a little bit of a personal introduction about myself,
and also maybe to some of our newer viewers, I’m... If we
were the real X-Files, I would actually be Scully.
[laughter] Okay? Meaning, I’m the one who’s slightly
more scientific, slightly more skeptical, slightly more cautious...
BR: ...and this is why, between us, many people feel,
and we feel ourselves, that we make quite a good team. So I
have a math and physics background.
BR: I tend not to leap to wild conclusions, but at the
same time I’m very happy to think out of the box...
BR: ...as I strongly suspect you do as well.
BR: And one of the reasons why we really wanted to talk
to youbesides the very high professional quality of your presentation
on various interviews that we listened to, to prepare ourselves
for this—is that the pieces of the jigsaw that you have
collected through your diligent research seem to us to be essential
understanding for anyone who really wants to know what’s
going on today in geopolitics, in terms of “black science”,
maybe even in terms of global agenda, who’s running the
show, how it all started, where it all started, and when it
BR: And for the benefit of some of our viewers who may
not know who you are...
JF: Okay. [laughs]
BR: ...despite that introduction, give us your elevator
speech about: Who is Joe Farrell? And how did you come
to do what you’re doing right now?
JF: Well, Cliff Notes version: My father was
an engineer, so I kind of grew up in a household where science
was always kind of a main thing to be stressed, and I’ve
always been, you know, individually interested in it. For quite
a long period when I was a child, and all through high school
later on, I wanted to be a physicist. And then, my senior year
I got senioritis, I’m afraid, and wimped out
of calculus and selected music theory as my alternative study,
but [laughs] that proved to be almost as difficult, if not
So I was also a musician and I got into music. And then when
I was in college I took philosophy and that diverted me even
further away from my original goal, into philosophy and ancient
texts. I’ve also always been interested in history and
ancient things, and mysteries, and so on and so forth. So I
did my Ph.D. in England and then taught college for a number
BR: In Oxford? Were you in Oxford?
JF: No, no. I wasn’t a professor
at all at Oxford. I just did my Ph.D. there. I actually taught
college in Oklahoma. It was mostly philosophy and history,
but I did do an inter-disciplinary seminar at one period of
time. That was a team-taught seminar, and the way the other
professor and I had to kind of divvy up the various disciplines
that we were trying to pull together... Well, she was a biologist
so she handled certain things, and I got physics because that’s
always been kind of a hobby even though I abandoned the professional
pursuit of it, so...
We also discovered we had a common interest, as it were, in
the esoteric and alternative things, and I presented some of
my Pyramid ideas to her and she says: Oh, you’ve
got to do that for the class. So I did it for the class
and they kind of really liked it, much to my surprise.
After I quit college teaching I decided: Well, you know
I might as well bite the bullet and write some of my crazy
ideas down. So that’s kind of [laughs] how I got
started in all of this. That’s how it came about.
BR: So you’re quite a polymath.
JF: Ah... I have a lot of interests. Yeah. I wouldn’t
say polymath, but, yeah, I’ve got a broad spectrum
of interests. [laughs]
BR: You’ve already answered one of my questions,
which is how come it appears evidently that you have such a
grasp of the physics which your research has led you to be
entangled with, if I can use that word.
JF: Oh yeah. Well, when I was growing up I was the quintessential
nerd. I mean, fun for me when I was a boy was playing with
my daddy’s slide rule, you know? [laughs] So that kind
of gives you the idea of what kind of person... I’ve
always been a reader and to this day I still like to try and
find physics papers online and pull ’em up and read ’em,
and see what’s going on. So that’s kind of what
BR: Well good for you because it sounds like, from what
we can gather, having talked to mutual colleagues such as Richard
BR: ...and Jim
Marrs, who we interviewed just this morning, is
that you’re providing a real service in the information
chain, as it were, in terms of providing researchers—who
are trying their best to assemble a big picture—with
some specific drilled-down components that you seem eminently
qualified to have stumbled across. Or perhaps that sounds
too clumsy. Actually, maybe you’ve been going after
them very deliberately ever since you realized that there
was something to go after.
BR: Do you think that that is correct?
JF: Maybe somewhere between the two. One of the things
that always struck me... My academic background is actually
in theology, and it always struck me that many of the methods
that theologians use are very similar, in some respects, to
methods that physicists use. And that may sound wildly contradictory
to what most people would think.
But in looking at ancient texts, particularly philosophical
texts, it always struck me that I was looking at a kind of
a topological metaphor rather than specifically a metaphysical
text. And the further I went back, the more apparent that metaphor
became, to the point that it even became possible to notate
certain concepts in text with the actual notation conventions
So I thought, well, you know: That’s kind of wild! [laughs]
So I didn’t share it. Doing the Ph.D., I didn’t
share that idea with anybody, you know. But after I quit college
teaching I began to look at texts that way, and to see... And
I had done it privately. I’m not saying that, you know,
all of a sudden I decided to do this. I’d been doing
it privately for a number of years and keeping little notebooks
of it. But yeah. It was kind of half-accident, and kind of
an on-going interest. So somewhere between the two.
BR: But there’s something that must have got you
started specifically on the treasure-trail that led you to
putting together a lot of the sub-jigsaw that was: What
were the Nazis really doing before and during World War Two...
BR: ...that nobody else seems to have really realized? What
was it that led you in that direction? What were the first
things you found?
JF: Well, the thing that always struck me that I don’t
think has... And I don’t even include myself in this
category. The thing that has always struck me about what kind
of research the Nazis were doing is, on the one hand you have
a definite esoteric, occult influence and interest that midwifes
the Nazi Party into existence. You have a definite esoteric
and occult influence at work after the Nazis take power.
And, you know, one of the things I like to point out is that
the Nazi “State” with the SS and Heinrich Himmler,
when he creates the Ahnenerbe Dienst, [ed. note: Ahnenerbe Service]the
so-called Ancestral Research Bureau...
If you go to the Nuremberg Tribunals and pull up the brief—you
have to kind of dig for it but you can eventually find it—it’s
a short little statement, declaration, that establishes this
thing. But one of the things that he puts in as one of the
purposes for this department is that it is to investigate all
of these areas for their potential military application. Okay?
So we have that influence at work. And then, on the other
hand, as you know, being mathematics and physics background,
you have during that period of—oh, say 1920 up to about
1931, ’32—you have this spate of publications in
Germany of various Unified Field Theories: Kaluza, Einstein,
Eddington, and so on and so forth. So you have that kind of
scientific ferment at work.
And then of course you add Gabriel Kron into the mix, a Hungarian
fellow, electrical engineer who says: Hey! You know,
he wins a prize at the University of Liège in
Belgium for a paper in which he says: Well, we electrical
engineers notice all of these anomalies in large rotating electrical
systems, and we can explain those anomalies by appealing to
these higher-dimensional physics Unified Field Theories.
So in other words, if you stop and think of the implications
of what he said, the technology of electrical circuitry, circa
1935, is producing anomalies only explainable by these higher-dimensional
mathematical / physics theories. He’s telling you, in
other words: These theories are engineer-able. They
may be incomplete in the theoretical sense, but they’re
nonetheless engineer-able theories. And that’s an important
BR: Which is highly significant because he’s marrying
two totally different worlds.
JF: Oh yes. Absolutely. Yes.
BR: Engineering in the practical; and the abstruse in
JF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, one of the
things that struck me... I’ve just acquired some of Kron’s
papers. I went out and bought one of his books, a little old
Dover book publication. But what he does is, he takes the tensor
calculus and uses it as a way of analyzing electrical machines.
BR: Now this is Einstein’s tensor calculus from
his 1928 Unified Field paper?
JF: Yeah. This is... Right. And one of the things specifically
that you’ll notice in Kron—although he doesn’t
come right out and tell you: I’m now going to show
you how torsion works—is he appeals to that very
So you’ve got these two very different things going
on as kind of an intellectual ferment in Germany at the time.
You’ve got the esoteric and occult interest, and you
have this very abstruse theoretical and engineering interest.
Now, I’ve always suspected that there is some sort of
connection between the two. And this is kind of what got me
interested in the whole “Bell” story, because the
department of the German government that is conducting all
of this very exotic research is precisely the SS.
BR: What year are we talking about now?
JF: That’s another good question. the Bell project
itself, I think you can make a kind of a case, actually has
its conceptual kind of proof-of-concept stage beginnings before
the Nazis take power, and may have been as early as circa 1924
BR: That early!?
JF: That early. The reason that I say that is in one
of my books I reproduce this little, oh, kind of a two-column
filler article that ran in the Frankfurter
Allgameine Zeitung, I think it was, but it was
written by none other than Dr. Walther Gerlach.
Now Walther Gerlach, you know, he’s one of the most
famous physicists at that time of history. He’s a Nobel
Prize winner, you know... the famous Stern-Gerlach experiment.
I thought: Well whoa! Because what he’s talking
about in this article is the possibility of the transmutation
of elements, specifically in regard to mercury-to-gold, and
he’s calling it a “new alchemy.” And that
just really brought me up short. Because you know, this is,
number one, before the discovery of nuclear fission by Otto
Hahn. Okay? So he’s got some very different concept in
BR: He’s a smart guy, he‘s
JF: [laughs] He’s a very smart guy! Yeah. This
is not a second-stringer, you know. And when he uses this word alchemy,
it’s crystal clear. I even reproduced the original German
article and then translated it, so you know that I’m
not making this stuff up, folks.
BR: It’s the same word in German, isn’t
JF: Oh yeah. Alchemy. You can see it right
there in an article. So he writes this article and then, it’s
very clear, he makes a kind of a final little
statement, that, you know: This should be investigated
further and to do so it’s going to—hint, hint—require
a lot of money. [laughs] So this is kind of the typical
scientist’s appeal to the government. All right?
JF: Well, the reason I think that the project may have
begun at this time is because it is precisely Dr. Walther Gerlach
who is the project head of the Bellfor the Nazis.
BR: Okay. Now, Joe, I wonder if I could stop you here,
because what we’ve got here is we’ve got the first
ten minutes of what’s sounding like a really interesting
movie where [Farrell laughs] no one’s quite sure what’s
going on here...
BR: ...but they’re interested.
BR: Now, for our viewers, Okay? We’ve talked about
Einstein; tensor calculus—something that sounds very
abstrusely mathematical that...
JF: It is! [laughs]
BR: ...no one will understand; the Nazis; and something
called the Bell. So what’s the plot-line here?
Why should anyone...
JF: Pay attention to this?
BR: ...care about this extraordinary story?
JF: All right. Very simple. It’s my belief...
Just to give you kind of a very short Cliff Notes answer,
it’s my belief, number one, that the Nazi atom bomb project
was successful. Now, what I’m gonna do is simply ask
your viewers to accept that as kind of a “given” for
the sake of argument so that I can kind of set the context.
If you look at the project classification of the Bell, the
Nazis classified it as kriegsentscheidend—[ed.
note: war decisive]. In other words, within the classification
system of the Third Reich, the Bell was classified absolutely
uniquely and at the very pinnacle of the system, and it
is the ONLY project in Nazi Germany to be given that specific
classification. In other words, higher than the atom bomb.
So in other words, to the Nazis the atom bomb is, you know,
already kind of “old stuff.” [laughs] Okay? So
that gives an indicator of what the significance is. But if
you look at the physics that they’re trying to investigate,
I believe they’re investigating it for three things—for
the purposes of achieving three things.
Number one, they want to free Germany from energy dependence
on foreign powers and foreign oil. So, in other words, they’re
investigating the so-called “zero point” energy.
Number two, the same sort of physics they have seen
is kind of a gateway or window into advanced field propulsion,
or antigravity if you want to call it that.
And the third thing of course, Nazis being Nazis, is that
they want to engineer this physics for a weapon. And of course
we’re dealing now with the physics that, again, can engineer
the fabric of space-time, locally.
BR: Okay. Now, just once again to summarize this before
we go into even more detail.
BR: What you’re referring to here is, you’ve
picked up the research line that was started by...
JF: Igor Witkowski.
BR: ...Nick Cook and Igor Witkowski. This thing that
seems to have been called... well, for lack of a better word The
Nazi Bell. We don’t know what they called it, do
JF: Well, actually they did call it Die Glocke.
BR: Die Glocke.
JF: And they had another nickname for it: Der Bienenstock—the
BR: The beehive.
JF: ...because of the sound it made. But one of
the actual project code names was Projekt Cronos, or Project
Time. Now, many people leap to the conclusion that well,
they’re trying to build a time machine. Well, no. That’s...
Time is involved because, again, you’re trying to use
torsion to tap into the ability to manipulate the fabric of
BR: What’s torsion?
JF: All right. Torsion. The way I like to illustrate
it very simply is: If you take a soda can and empty the soda
out of it and then wring it like a dishrag, you’ve got
that counter-rotating motion, and it’s going to spiral
and fold and pleat that can, and then draw the ends of the
can closer together. So that kind of is my simplistic illustration
of what torsion does. And the can itself would represent space-time,
Now, what they’re doing... I think ultimately, for the
Nazis, the purpose of this is they want to weaponize it. And
of course—and I say this over and over again in my interviews—if
you’re dealing with a technology that has the potential
to engineer space-time, that means that if you weaponize that,
potentially you have a weapon that would make a hydrogen bomb
look like a firecracker.
It’s truly planet-busting stuff if you’ve got
the proper engineering behind it and, you know, develop appropriate
power systems and so on. Which again... one and the same thing
will lead to zero-point energy, so there’s your power,
[laughs] you know?
BR: And there’re some very smart scientists in
JF: Oh yes! Absolutely.
BR: One might actually say “the world’s
finest”, would you say?
JF: I would say so. And again, you know, this is why
I kind of prefaced my remarks by mentioning the atom bomb,
because the kind of the post-war Allied legend, as I like to
call it, is of course the Germans were a bunch of nuclear bunglers,
you know. And they didn’t have enough manpower. And they
didn’t have enough money, you know, and all of this happy
nonsense that you hear in the textbooks.
Well, to me this story really doesn’t make much sense.
And you’re right. They’ve got Heisenberg. They’ve
got Hartek. I mean, these people are not second-stringers at
all. So yeah, what the Germans are doing... And I want to emphasize
here the importance of why Nazism would be the ideological
cauldron for this, because Nazism of course had banned “Jewish
physics”. In other words: Relativity. And they
even had ideological difficulties with aspects of quantum mechanics
because it was too statistical. It was too probabilistic. It
wasn’t deterministic enough for some of the Nazi ideologues.
But what is implied by this in the standard history is that
within Nazi Germany you have an absolute stamping out of the
scientific method and a dead-ending of physics. But I think
if you look now, a hundred years after Relativity,
we see precisely that physics has dead-ended. We have this
kind of dogma in place now.
What I think Nazism really did is it freed those people in
a certain way to think outside the box, and all of that outside-the-box
thinking took place inside the confines of the SS. And the
signal event that kicks all this loose now in modern times—the
reason we’re finding out about it—is precisely
German Reunification. Why?
JF: Because when the Eastern Zone is basically annexed
in a shotgun wedding by West Germany... and that’s exactly
how I would describe it. When that happens, all of those old
SS installations in the Eastern Zone—some of which the
Soviets didn’t even get into, you know. The SS blew ’em
up and the Soviets never bothered to go into them. The Germans
went back in there and looked at all this stuff, and it wasn’t
showing up on any radar screen connected with rockets or jet
aircraft or poison gas, you know, any of the other stuff that
they were doing. And so they began to wonder: Well, what’s
going on here?
And then of course Igor finds that very strange “henge”-like
structure there in Ludwikowice, I think in Poland, which used
to be Ludwigsdorf, and he’s wondering: What is this? [laughs]
You know? Why is this here?
And of course this kicks loose the spate of declassification.
This kicks loose a bunch of people coming forward from the
old Eastern Zone, now able to talk about what they saw, what
they observed. So this has kicked loose a fantastic amount
BR: It’s very interesting what you are saying
about the... Let me rephrase what you’re saying: The
crucible of the state’s support and the state’s
agenda was a perfect support system for a scientist who wanted
the funding and the motivation...
JF: And to think outside the box.
BR: ...and all the resources to go and play with his
toys and to do what all scientists really want to do, which
is to invent something wild...
JF: [laughs] Yes! Exactly!
BR: ...that works.
JF: That’s exactly right.
BR: And what some of our listeners will already be thinking is,
like... they’ll be thinking: Wait
a minute! This is what’s happening in Los Alamos and
Hughes and Sandia and Bell Labs right now.
JF: Uh huh! Yes. That’s right. Yes!
BR: At a different time and in a different Reich—[Farrell
laughs]—which is what Jim Marrs would say.
JF: Yeah. I wouldn’t have much of an argument
with him either! [laughs]
BR: But what I also think you’re saying, at the
risk of putting words into your mouth, is that if we want to
understand that stuff that I just mentioned, then we need to
go back to exactly this paper trail that you’ve been
following, because what we’re seeing nowadays is the
progeny of that. Is that correct?
JF: Yeah. Nazi Germany is, you know, it’s really
a weird state when you examine the scientific implications
of it because...
Let me go back to that SS department that Himmler sets up.
Okay, you’re gonna go out there and you’re gonna
research the Aryan heritage—if we look at the Nazi state
and we go back to what Himmler sets up with this department—and
he says: All right. Go out and investigate all of the aspects
of the ancient Aryan heritage. But the mission brief is
broad enough that he gives them.
Basically you have a department of the Nazi state created
specifically for the purpose to investigate the esoteric, the
occult, the hermetic, whatever you want to call all of this
ancient lore, okay? For the specific purpose of military application.
BR: This again sounds eerily reminiscent of what we
hear coming out of certain places in America right now.
JF: Yeah! Right. But here, what I’m emphasizing
here, and what I want to kind of tie into what you said, is
that this is the first time in modern history that a major
world power has invested serious financial and personnel resources
to do this. And it’s very, very clear, you know, in Nazi
Germany’s case. So we have this cauldron, this crucible
that, you know...
I take kind of almost diametrically the opposite tack that
a standard academic historian would give you of this Aryan
physics. We know what the failures are. I mean, they’re
palpable. They’re blatant. But the reason we don’t
know about the successes, and the reason that we’re only
hearing about them now, is not only German Reunification but
precisely because that crucible was in the SS. It was all classified.
It was also deeply black.
But yeah, by freeing them from so-called “Jewish physics”,
what they’re really saying is: We want you to think
outside the box. We want you to come up with a completely different
paradigm of physics. And if it’s engineer-able, [claps
hands] go do it.
BR: Okay. Now, interestingly enough, just last week
we spoke with Peter
Levenda. Do you know him and his work?
JF: Oh yes. Yeah. I know Peter.
BR: We were delighted to talk with him and, of course,
he’s somebody who...
JF: Oh yes.
BR: ...is a document researcher like yourself. And he
described to us how he went to the very famous archivist, Dr.
JF: Okay. Yes.
BR: ...who showed him the archives of the SS Ahnenerbe.
JF: Oh boy! [laughs]
BR: And his words were that his jaw dropped. He never
knew such a thing existed. It’s really interesting to
us that you’ve been down that same rabbit-hole. And what
I’d love to ask you about—if this doesn’t
deviate from your thought-line here—is: What is the connection
between this hard, but brilliant and out-of-the-box physics,
with the occult?
JF: I think... Again, if you go back to the remarks
I began with, I think if you go far enough back and look at
certain types of texts, for example, the Hermetica, okay?
And read them without the standard academic approach with metaphysics
eyeglasses on, and read them rather as a topologist--as a mathematician—would
read these texts, or as even a materials engineer, you know,
might read these texts, what pops out of these things is a
profound metaphor of a physical medium that creates information,
and that’s a very modern idea. In fact, it’s so
modern, you know, it starts popping up in the Soviet Union
in the 1970s and begins to kind of spread from there. All of
this stuff is popping out of the Soviet Union.
So in other words, way back when—if we go back to the Hermetica—here
we’re dealing with a text approximately, oh give or take,
you know, 2,000 years old, so in others words... But it’s
an Egyptian text even though it’s written in Greek. Its
provenance is clearly Egyptian, okay? So this is very old and
yet it contains this profoundly sophisticated physics metaphor.
That’s what really popped out at me, you know, when
I was reading these texts. It wasn’t that I was supposed
to be looking and seeing Platonic Universals, you know, the
chair-of-all-chairs and the horse-of-all-horses. No. None of
that was what was popping out at me. What Plato’s talking
about is topology. He’s talking about common surfaces
with common forms, okay? So I’m looking at this, and
then I’m looking at the Nazis, and they’re coming
up with these theories essentially in the ’20s and ’30s
that are looking at the physical medium as an engineer-able
reality. In other words, in a certain sense, as an information-creating
medium. So... And again, the key to creating stable information
is rotation, okay? Torsion, and so on and so forth.
So I’m thinking: Well, this appears to be precisely
what we see going on with this Bell project. They are somehow
pursuing this idea of physics. And one of the things
that leapt out at me that kind of made this connection very
In my book, The Philosopher’s Stone, I refer
to a fellow by the name of “Himmler’s Rasputin”—if
you can imagine [laughs] Heinrich Himmler having a personal
Rasputin! Well this guy’s name is Karl Maria Wiligut. Okay?
He has a number of aliases that he wrote esoteric treatises
under. But his basic conception is that the whole universe
arises out of a tension between two counter-rotating spirals
which create the “World Egg”. Okay?
And when I saw that I thought: Oh boy! Because of
course in the Bell, you know—which I rationalize as basically
a kind of hyper-dimensional torsion physics device—you’ve
got these two counter-rotating drums into which they’re
putting this high-density liquid, which I think may have even
incorporated an isomer as one of its components. And of course
an isomer is one of these high-spin isotopes, that if you de-excite
it, it will release massive amounts of energy.
Well, you’ve got these two counter-rotating drums, and
I’m thinking: Well, here’s the physics that
they’re doing, and we’ve got these two counter-rotating
things. And over here, Himmler’s Rasputin is saying: Well,
this is all coming out of two counter-rotating systems.
You know? So I think, clearly, you had an ideological culture
in the SS that, rather than inhibiting scientific progress,
really kind of forced them to pursue all of this higher-dimensional
BR: It actually gave them an inspirational boost.
JF: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the kind of...
the final nail in the coffin, as far as I’m concerned
is, if you look at the swastika itself, you know, and view
that as not so much the corporate logo of the Nazi Party but
as an ideogram of this whole physics idea...
BR: It looks like a vector diagram.
JF: Yeah. It looks like a vector diagram.
Exactly! You know, you’ve got a subsystem of rotation,
you’ve got a subsystem of stress, and you throw ‘em
together and twist that thing, and there’s your parallel
transports in the tensor calculus... and voila, you know, [laughs]
you’re on your way.
Kerry Cassidy (KC): In a sense, that symbol came out
JF: Oh sure. Yeah.
KC: They actually went back to the original meaning
of the symbol, and picked up on it because
it was supposed to have been...
JF: Yes. Bingo. Bingo! Exactly! And, you know, if you
kind of can imagine Walther Gerlach being challenged, you know.
Let’s assume the project’s underway when the Nazis
take power. Gerlach got his wish. He got funding from the Weimar
government, and he’s doing his spin experiments, okay?
He was fascinated with spin and magnetic resonance and gravitation,
you know. He corresponded with the Austrian physicist, Thirring.
You know, the Lense-Thirring Effect. Satellite drag and all
this, you know. This was his bag.
So imagine the Nazis coming in and saying: Well,
Professor Doktor Gerlach, we’re going to shut your
project down. It looks too suspicious to us. It’s dealing
in areas we don’t want to deal with. It’s not
part of our ideology. Well, all Gerlach has to do is
Himmler, it’s right there on your armband. He’s
already sold them, in a certain sense! [Bill laughs]
And you’re right. Because the other thing about the
Bell that I should mention in this context with India is that
this Xerum 525 that they’re putting inside this
device and spinning up... Well, number one, it’s a liquid.
Number two, it’s of heavy density. Number three, it’s
of a kind of a maroonish-violet color, okay? Very heavy.
So I’m thinking: A liquid metal. Mercury.
So probably mercury is one thing. And there’s your connection
to India. Because of course as you know, in the vimana texts
you have references to mercury vortexes. And, just
to kind of make a final nail in the coffin, mercury’s
kind of an ideal candidate if you’re going to use plasmas
in this thing.
And again, you know, you have astrophysicists in Germany—Houtermans—looking
at the sun thinking: Okay, we’ve got nuclear fusion
up there. And they’ve already noticed the sun rotates
but the plasma is rotating at different velocities, so you’ve
got this “differential rotation” they call it,
but that’s just a fancy word for, you know, it’s
rotating at different velocities. And they’re putting
all this together in this device.
KC: What about the vimanas? You know, what was in essence
flying saucers way back when? Do you think that they might
have gotten the idea there?
JF: From those ancient texts? Let me put it this way:
I don’t think it’s even necessary to say that that
might have been a motivation. However, within the culture of
the SS that is conducting this research, you’re going
to have one department, the Ahnenerbe, reading these texts
and taking them to the scientists to analyze. And the scientists
are going to look at these things and say: Oh, isn’t
Because over here Professor Doctor Gerlach has been studying
this. He won a Nobel Prize for examining aspects of this type
of physics, and he’s been investigating and researching
ever since. And they’re putting these two things together.
I think that’s what’s happening in Nazi Germany.
They’re doing the first attempt, in a certain sense,
to go back at these ancient texts and say they contain a scientific
metaphor, and therefore a technology. And we have these papers
now that we can see this. Let’s try and reconstruct it.
This is a vital thing because that means they have also seen—and
this is, again, a part of Nazi ideological belief—that
there was a very sophisticated ancient civilization. So in
another sense then, yeah, they’re trying to reconstruct
this stuff. In that sense they’re kind of a resurrection
KC: Then are they looking at the Egyptian pyramids and
the Sumerian seals…
JF: They’re looking at everything. [laughs]
KC: …and they’re getting all kinds of clues.
JF: Oh yeah! Absolutely they are, you know…
BR: Because at exactly the same time as this they were
mounting expeditions all over the world to try and get hold
JF: Oh yes.
BR: …anything they could get a hold of.
JF: Oh yes.
BR: That would give them clues to all of this, right?
JF: Well, in this regard, this idea of an ancient civilization
in trying to get clues into it; you’re familiar with
the ‘38-39 Schafer expedition to Tibet.
JF: Okay. Well, Himmler was a personal sponsor of this.
What I find interesting is that, in spite of the heavy influence
of the British Raj in Tibet, the Nazis not only were able to
gain entry into the Potala from the regions. They came out
of Tibet with an entire copy—as Peter Levenda’s
research establishes—an entire copy of the Kangschur;
this ancient Tibetan epic which is supposed to be about this
very sophisticated ancient civilization. And they make it back
to Germany with this.
BR: And they knew its importance.
JF: Oh yes absolutely they did, absolutely they did.
KC: So some of their technology could have come from
Tibet as well?
JF: I think some of their technology
has to... Some of their thinking has to come from looking at
these texts and looking at all of these very abstruse ideas
in physics and putting them together because they fit so snuggly
at places at times that it really is astonishing. You know,
dare write about any of this when I was a professor. [laughs]
That’s why I wait until after I get out of there. Now
I’ll write it down.
BR: The least one can say about it is that this is all
the work of intuitive genius.
JF: Yes, I…
BR: That’s the least one can say.
JF: That’s the least that one can say. And again,
the fact that we have an organized department of the government—and
a secret one at that—doing this, that means it’s
JF: And that, to me, implies that—as you’re
implying—that to me indicates that there is some deliberation
being taken in thinking and rationalizing all of this out.
BR: Okay. Now let me just dispose of one question here
that our viewers will want me to ask.
JF: Sure. [laughs]
BR: Actually, and secretly, I want to ask it myself
too. This is the claimed inference of the Vril Society; those
young girls who were channeling, remote viewing, accessing
clairvoyant information—whatever you want to call it.
BR: That’s been much vaunted…
BR: …by theorists who claim that they were accessing
information that may have come from other realms or other planets
BR: What’s your take on that?
JF: I don’t base my analysis of the Bell Project,
or anything like that, on channeled information or on Neo-Nazi
sources. My problem with this story is precisely those two
things. That it comes, first of all, from a source that is
anecdotal and, secondly, that the ultimate source that’s
putting it out has some very shady kind of Neo-Nazi ties, okay?
And there’s no other corroboration of it other than
the fact that we know that something called the Vril Society did
exist, and we know it because it was the German rocket scientist
Willy Ley that first mentioned it when he came over to this
country to escape the Nazis.
JF: Okay. So we know that that society existed. We don’t
know much about it. They did publish a small thin little brochure
in Berlin prior to the war. I haven’t been able to get
a hold of it. I don’t know what it’s contents are.
So, as far as I’m concerned, this is a story that, number
one, has kind of a suspect origin and, number two, I haven’t
been able to find anything other than this story to corroborate
that the Nazis were doing this.
I do know that the Ahnenerbe is doing research that we would
now consider paranormal or psychic or remote viewing or what
have you. Certainly they were. So you’ve got a general
context in which something like that might have taken place,
but they are alleging that this took place toward the end—in
fact in some cases during World War One and toward the end
of World War One—long before the Nazis are even on the
BR: I thought it was in the twenties.
JF: No. I think one of these was 1916 and another one
was in 19—and again, I may be mistaken—1919 I think,
close to Berchtesgarten, which is another unusual little coincidence
[laughs] in this story, but...
KC: But did you investigate the remote viewing, like
the origins of remote viewing, in the Nazi…
JF: No, no I haven’t. That’s an aspect of
the story I think again that is going to come out eventually.
The problem now is getting... There are massive amounts of
Ahnenerbe documents in the US national archives, but many of
them are still unavailable, so the problem is being able to
tell a complete story. You see, that’s the whole problem
here. It’s not that I don’t think that there is
one but right now all we have with the Vril Society is a kind
of a general kind of corroboration of a context.
BR: Yes. And presumably you’re also sort of invoking
Occam’s Razor by saying it’s not necessary to…
JF: To go there.
BR: I understand that.
JF: Exactly. It’s not necessary because you have
another occult influence at work already within the SS that
has a specifically detailed conceptual relationship to the
physics being investigated with the Bell and that’s this
JF: Right. So you really don’t even need to go
there. It would be kind of nice icing on the cake, you know,
if they figured out: Well, consciousness plays a role in
this too and we’re going to investigate that. Well
if they’re rationalizing things to that extent, yeah,
then we’re in even deeper trouble. [laughs]
BR: Okay. Now after all those fascinating set-ups…
JF: Okay. [laughs]
BR: …our viewers here, who are thinking this
sounds like a detective story; this sounds like Columbo...
JF: Or a bad Oliver B movie. [laughs]
BR: What was the Bell? What were they trying
to do? And what is known what is not known what is theorized
and why is this important?
JF: Okay, let me give you the basic data points and
then I’ll give you how I kind of rationalize them. My
rationalization of it is a bit different that Igor Witkowski
and Nick Cook although I kind of build on some aspects of their
First of all it’s a device, it’s bell shaped,
it stands about twelve to fifteen feet high, nine to twelve
feet wide. It’s either cased in a kind of a ceramic metal
or just plain old ceramic. It’s got heavy duty electrical
port cable—electrical cabling ports—around the
Inside the device there are two counter rotating
I want to be clear here. The data that we have does not specify
the internal configuration of those drums within the Bell.
These two counter rotating drums had a 'serum'—this Xerum
525 I mentioned earlier—the heavy maroonish-red,
probably mercury, compound.
It is cryogenically cooled either by liquid oxygen or liquid
nitrogen and it is close to an electrical power plant and sounds
like a beehive Okay? The electrical power plant is kind of
to put an hyperbole on it near yards away from the installations
that the Bell is being tested in all right?
BR: The kind of hum you get from a high voltage generator.
JF: Yes. Okay. Now let’s put all these things...
Those are the data points, and the…
BR: And this is known how?
JF: This is known by an SS general by the name of Jakob
Sporrenberg who was part of this project because he was the
general that was tasked, at the end of the war, to go in and
murder sixty of the scientists involved with the project.
JF: In other words the Nazis want to keep this thing absolutely quiet.
BR: I didn’t know that.
JF: Oh yeah, that’s how all this comes out. He’s
tried for that crime by a Polish War Crimes Tribunal because,
of course, Poland slid westward and took over parts of Pomeranian
Silesia that were formerly German provinces. And the Bell was
tested in that part of Germany that then became Poland after
So Poland assumed jurisdiction over this man for that crime
and we know it by the affidavit that he gave at that war crimes
trial, okay? But it’s important again to realize, it’s
after the collapse of the iron curtain, it’s after the
collapse of the east German state and basically the shotgun
wedding that was had in 1989, that all of this comes out.
Now, Sporrenberg also describes the effect of the device on
plants. Plants exposed to the field of this thing when it was
operating would decay to a kind of a brownish grey goo within
a matter of either hours or weeks, this would vary.
BR: They’d come apart.
JF: Yes. They’d just literally fall apart, just blugh,
and they would do so without putrefaction. The first time it
was tested apparently the Germans had not done something correctly
and seven of the original scientists of the project were killed
when it was tested the first time. Later on, apparently, they
learned how to kind of control some of these deadly effects
a little bit more reasonably.
But those are the data points. And one little final bit of
information—a final bit of data point... When it was
tested underground it had to be tested in a room lined with
ceramic bricks over which were placed rubber mats. After each
test concentration camp victims would come in, remove the rubber
mats, burn the mats and then scrub down the ceramic bricks
with brine—okay? That had to be done for some reason
after each test.
JF: Yes I think so, I think so. Again... and I’m
mentioning that because it’s a crucial data point. Then,
when it was tested outside, it was tested apparently inside
this henge-like structure that is near all of these strange
installations with this electrical power plant right there.
This henge stood in a kind of a basin—a pool—it
looks like, that would have contained some sort of liquid.
Around the perimeter of this pool there are... And you can
see this on the History Channel documentary with Nick Cook.
Igor takes Nick down into this structure and you can see these
entry ports for all of this heavy duty electrical cabling,
Apparently, when tested at night, these concentration camp
inmates described this barrel-like thing that would glow a
pale blue glow and it would rise above the tree line and kind
of sit there and then it would fall back down; lower back down.
So those are our data points. I don’t think that the
dimensions of the device, at this point in my research, are
functionally significant so let’s turn to the cryogenic
cooling, okay? We’re dealing already we know with a device
that is using these two counter rotating cylinders, and I suspect
that their centrifuge isotope technology had something to do
with this, because they’re using ultra high mechanical
In other words, this is a precision machine, and it’s
being cryogenically cooled. And the first thing that I think
of is super-conductivity, you know. Again, high spin system,
little resistance. It’s a kind of a self contained little
bubble of its own...
BR: Was superconductivity understood in the physics
of that time?
JF: Oh yeah. Sure. Then the next thing is we have this
mysterious substance which they’re putting into these
cylinders and spinning at high speed. I think that the presence
of this power plant and the sound of the Bell, as a beehive,
indicates that this whole thing was electrically pulsed with
extremely high voltage direct current electricity.
And that the drums were set up—and Igor agrees with
me here; this is his analysis that I’m borrowing
from—that you have a cathode and an anode and this will
arc to the centre. And as this stuff is spinning and cohering
along the same plane of rotation and being pulsed, electrically
pulsed, it’s going to drive it inward, create little
plasmoids, and you’re going to get even more spin out
of this thing.
So, in other words, the way I’m rationalizing the device,
ultimately, is they are attempting to maximize by every possible
means this extreme torsion shear effect. This is exactly what
they are going after. They are trying to figure out if they
can manipulate and engineer the fabric of space-time.
BR: With what end?
JF: To what end, again, I think there’s these
three purposes in mind: the Bell is part of a... The departmental
oversight, let’s say, of the Bell is three things.
First, you have some attachment to the Forschung Inviclum
Inpatento, which is a super secret SS entity that
is pulling every patent application within the Third Reich,
and later occupied Europe, that has national security implications.
Number two, it’s under an entity called SS
Entwicklungstelle vier which means Development
Area Four. The mission brief of that department is to make
Germany energy independent and it’s that department
that you have investigating things like controlled fusion,
zero point energy, and so on and so forth. So it’s
attached to that department.
Then the final department that it’s attached to is General
Hans Kammler and his think tank down in the Pils in Czechoslovakia
in the Scotia Munitions Works. And the mission brief of that
department of the SS is to brainstorm its way from first generation
to second and third and fourth generations—and here’s
the key—to work out the necessary steps in the technology
tree, to get from one to the other, and then to do it. Okay?
JF: So the Bell is connected with all these departments
and what this suggests to me, given the physics involved here,
is that they’re trying to create a prototype technology.
And I want to emphasize this: This thing is not a UFO, it is
not itself a weapon and it is not itself a zero point energy
It’s a prototype technology, or a gateway technology,
that they are using in developing to investigate each of those
three areas. That I think is what you have with this project.
But I think the results were significant enough to them, by
1944, that they give it this extreme classification—kriegsentscheidend—war
So they’re already seeing the military potential of
this thing. This is a field propulsion potential here of just
extraordinary capability. And this is a weapon potential here
of just extraordinary capability, but it’s a kind of
a unified technology.
KC: It also sounds like it’s a time machine. I
mean, it sounds like it’s creating what Jodie Foster
entered, in a sense, in Contact.
JF: Right. I use the term “time dilation” here,
and I don’t want relativistic associations, but I don’t
want people to think that this is a device that can be used
as a practical device for time travel—going backward
or forward into the future. But the field effects here on plants,
I think, are key.
And another thing I should mention is: I think one of the
purposes of this 'Xerum' and the use of probably some isotope
of mercury and nuclear isomers was precisely the fact that,
if they were able to achieve a severe time dilation effect,
the way you’re going to try and measure it is precisely
by changes in radioactive decay, okay?
JF: Yes. So I think this is yet another reason they’re
spinning this stuff up and pulsing it. It’s kind of at
one and the same time the fuel of the device and the measurement
of what they’re getting out of it.
KC: But is it possible, two things…
JF: Mm hm.
KC: …one, that if in spinning which it’s
creating a portal, in essence, it’s creating a torsion
JF: Yes. It’s creating this “twisted can” effect.
KC: But you’re saying it affected plants on the
outside of it.
KC: Is there any chance that on the inside you wouldn’t
have the same effect?
JF: Good question. To my knowledge—and I think
Igor Witkowski would probably back me up here. To my knowledge
there is no evidence that this device was constructed in such
a way that you could put people into it, or plants or animals
or what have you into this device. Now, that doesn’t
Let’s put ourselves in the Nazi shoes for a moment and
kind of speculate. If by, say 1942/43 when it is very clear
from the documents that Igor has gathered, they have been successful
enough with this project even to split it into the physics
component and the medical component, okay? Which indicates—Igor
thinks (and I think that he’s quite right here)—that
the Nazis have decided: Okay. We’re far enough along
we need to learn how to limit the effects of this stuff on
If this is the case, then there’s nothing to prevent
the Nazis from building or modifying that machine, building
another one, so that they can do precisely that. And that would
be a logical step for them to take. But, as of yet, we don’t
have any hard evidence that they did this. That’s all
I’m saying. So, yes. It has a field around it where the
effects are quite deadly.
BR: Now, as a leap…
BR: …and one that some of our viewers may already
have been making.
BR: If, to mirror what you said at the start of our conversation
when you said: Well, let’s assume that the Germans
have been successful in establishing some degree of nuclear
BR: Let’s suppose that the Americans had done
something in the Montauk project.
BR: As it’s popularly been...
BR: ...portrayed as some kind of a Star Gate device
that involves huge amounts of electrical power, a lot of trial
and error experimentation...
BR: ...and even the idea, you know—heaven forbid—that
children picked up off the streets were used as a means of
trying to push them into this thing to see if they would survive
BR: Is this a ridiculous leap in your mind or is this
something that you’re willing to entertain, theoretically,
that there’s the connection here. As this technology….
JF: Between the Bell and Montauk?
BR: Well, yes. I mean... Because, as this conversation
continues, I want your take on what happened to this technology
after the war. The significance of Kammler...
BR: ...and what happened to him. [Farrell laughs] What
happened to this technology and the deals that may have been
BR: …and whoever, and where it is now. What happened
BR: This is not the kind of thing that’s just
abandoned, is it a failed project?
JF: No-no. [laughs]
BR: Certainly not. There are too many smart people...
JF: Oh, yes!
BR: ...who are too interested in keeping on playing
with this incredible toy.
JF: Okay, well let me dispense with Montauk. That is
not a project that I have investigated deeply, Okay? I’ve
investigated enough to know that there’s a lot of (if
I can use the expression) wacky stuff out there and
I just don’t want to go there. There’s been really
only one good book about it, in my estimation, and I can’t
even recall the title of it.
From some of the descriptions of the project: Yeah, it appears
that they’re kind of investigating similar things, but
not really. So I don’t make a connection between the
Bell and Montauk at all in my mind intuitively. It just has
too many... it’s got too many elements like the Vril
society channeling all this information and that’s where
we are getting this science. It’s got too much of that
But as for where does the Bell go. The way I kind of outline
in my books it appears to me that Martin Bormann is the key
figure here. And in each and every case that we see these German
scientists surrendering to the Allies, let’s give the
example of the rocket scientists, we in the United States get
sort of the crème de la crème, Okay?
As to where the Bell goes. In my opinion Martin Bormann sees
to it that the Allies and the Soviet Union get more or less
an equal division of the technological spoils.
He sees to it, according to my research, that the United States
gets crucial atom bomb components. Fissile U235, infrared proximity
fuses that are a nice handy thing to have around when you are
trying to detonate plutonium cores, all of this technology
he sees to it that the United States gets. He sees to it that
the Soviet Union gets a crucial Nazi scientist that had developed
certain isotope enrichment technologies.
BR: Who was that?
JF: Baron Manfred from Arjona, who, of course, used
cyclotrons and mass spectrometers just like Lawrence did over
here. So this goes to the Soviet Union—oops!—along
with the centrifuge technology. So he’s seeing to it
that all of this technology is being equally divided.
But if you’re going to have a post war, extra-territorial
Nazi state, so to speak, and it’s going to have organization,
and if you are going to have an ongoing research project, there’s
two things you can’t have: You can’t have atom
bombs because that’s going to require large enrichment
plants, of course that’s going to be an easy target.
You can’t have large rocket gantries you are going to
need a project that is truly sensational and would pay massive
dividends and yet be a project that you could much easier keep
secret, okay? And that’s the Bell.
JF: So in other words, what I’m telling you is,
the Allies and the Soviet Union get the jets, the rockets,
the infrared sights, the computers, the semi-conductor chips,
you know, all of this stuff. But the project that was classified war
decisive the Nazi’s keep to themselves.
In my research I think that, definitely, a case can be made
that the post war fusion project that was taking place in Juan
Peron’s Argentina, is really nothing more than a continuation
of certain aspects of this Bell project. In other words, with
all of those Nazis located in Argentina, including —as
I make a case in my books—Martin Bormann himself. You
have the boss, in other words, right there in the area where
this secret Argentine project is being conducted.
So, in other words, Peron is not really the one that is in
control of this. It’s Bormann. He’s the financier,
okay? So you have the Bell not going to the West, not going
to the Soviet Union, you have it going to Argentina. Now, you
KC: I’m sorry, but I have to ask...
KC: Don’t you think there’s a very good
chance that what was going on in Argentina was under the purview
of the United States? Because a lot of the head Nazis did go
to the United States, wouldn’t you say?
JF: Well, there are Nazis that go here but the important
ones, no. And the reason I say that is that... If you go back
to my book SS Brotherhood of the Bell, I pick up on
something that Igor Witkovsky very explicitly mentions in his
book, and that is that it appears that the United States was
desperately trying to reconstruct the personnel team of the
Bell. In other words, we didn’t get the people, and if
we’re trying to reconstruct the personnel team, that
means we didn’t get the documents from the project and
probably we didn’t get the device.
If we had the device we probably wouldn’t have needed
much of the personnel. So we really didn’t get much of
anything. I’ve only been able to identify two Bell scientists
that made it to this country. One was, incidentally, Dr. Hubertus
Strughold who was involved in the medical aspect of the project.
The other one was a fellow by the name of Dr. Kurt Debus.
Now this guy is an interesting character because he apparently
was one of these top scientists because he was the man that
designed the power plant for the Bell. Now here’s why
he’s significant. I have a picture of him in SS Brotherhood
of the Bell and he’s standing right next to Dr.
Wernher Von Braun [laughs] at NASA and you’re nodding
your head and smiling, you know where this is going!
He’s standing right next to Wernher Von Braun at NASA,
and they are kind of pointing off to something in the distance
like that, and he’s a senior flight director for the
Apollo program at Cape Canaveral. So in other words, as an
administrator, he’s got his hands in all the NASA pies.
But the man isn’t even a rocket scientist. He’s
an electrical engineer.
BR: It’s really weird, isn’t it?
JF: Well, it’s so weird [laughs] to go there where
you want me to go. It’s so weird that I happen to think
that this indicates that there’s an alternative technology
in play here.
JF: In the Apollo program.
BR: Yup! Let me inject a little anecdote that may make
you smile. This is a personal anecdote, and I don’t even
think Kerry’s heard this one. My father was a facial
recognition expert who worked with the British home office.
BR: He... Among many things, he invented Photofit,
the facial recognition system used to catch crooks.
BR: And Identi-kit, which preceded it, was an idea that
was stolen from him.
BR: And every now and then the British home office would
consult him with a special request. And I remember sitting
around the kitchen table, in the 1970’s when I was in
my mid-twenties, and my father looking at pictures of Martin
JF: [laughs] Oh boy.
BR: …and he had been approached by the British
home office who had some pictures of an old man that had been
sent to them either from Brazil or Argentina, and I cannot
remember which, (and my father is now no longer with us) and
my father was being tasked to state whether or not this man,
that had been found in the 1970’s, was Martin Bormann
and my father said: Yes it absolutely was. So, how
about that for a little anecdote?
JF: Yeah, well. [laughs] I’ve got an anecdote
of my own. It’s not my personal anecdote but I mention
in my Nazi International book that the CBS journalist
Paul Manning, that was a close associate of Ed Murrow, you
know, the very famous journalist that was in the UK during
the blitz and later on TV.
Well, Manning wrote a book. This was after Ladislas Farago
had come out with his book about Martin Bormann, the Fourth
Reich and all that stuff. Well Manning, I think, in a certain
sense, was kind of miffed at the way they had treated a fellow
journalist, and he wrote a book called Martin Bormann:
Nazi in Exile. And he basically verified that the documents
that Farago had used in his book were real. They were legit,
Well he found something else. [laughs] He found that Martin
Bormann—I think around 1967—had cashed a check
[laughs] at Manufacturers Hanover and Chase Manhattan Bank.
It was cleared through Deutsche Bank in Buenos Aires in Argentina,
and the check had been cashed over his own signature. [laughs]
BR: Incredible. [Farrell laughs] Amazing.
KC: I don’t understand. I mean, you can back off
the link between this—I don’t know how to say his
name—the guy in Florida…
JF: Debus. Kurt Debus.
KC: …Debus. Okay, and Bormann. In other words
you’re, in essence, saying they no longer spoke?
JF: Oh no, no, no! I’m not backing off that link
at all. Quite the contrary. No. I’m very much in agreement
with Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara that, you know, in Dark
Mission they outlined the case that, by the time of these
late Apollo missions, it’s the Nazis that are the most
significant influence inside of NASA.
No, quite the contrary. In fact, one of the things I try and
mention in SS Brotherhood of The Bell, is that our
early monitoring of these German scientists, that were over
here as part of our missile program and then the early space
program, discovered that there seemed to be a sort of chain
of command between all of these Nazis still in existence, and
that they even had mail drops.
And they were driving these fancy cars and getting money from they-knew-not-where.
That it wasn’t coming from a NASA scientist salary. They
were driving around [laughs] in these Mercedes cars but nothing
was ever done about it. That’s, to me, what’s suspicious
because yeah, that clearly indicates they’ve got some
connection to this post war Nazi organization. Very clearly
and very palpably.
KC: So what about Wernher Von Braun…
KC: …what about him, and the link with…
JF: …with all of this?
KC: Yeah. With Debus. Because, if they are working together,
is there more than just a working relationship? In other words,
what I’m trying to find out is, where did he fit in to
JF: …to this picture? Alright! Good question.
I do not, in my books, speculate on what that relationship
may be. But I'll do so here because I think it's an excellent
If you look at Mr. Hoagland and Mr. Bara’s hypothesis
in Dark Mission, what you have ultimately is a two-track
space program. You’ve got one that’s out there
for public consumption with the rockets and, you know, all
the fireworks and flag-waving, Mom and apple pie. And then
there is something else. It’s like you’re dealing
with a black hole of news. There’s news stories around
it and then there’s this big black hole right in the
middle that’s conspicuous for its blackness, okay?
Well, this little picture of von Braun and Debus, to me, is
sort of the icon of what you’re seeing with this two-track
space program, because very clearly these two men are engaged
in a private conversation that’s behind glass; they’re
both wearing their earphones. They’re both kind of close
to each other and they’re pointing off in the distance
to something, okay? So I think this relationship goes back
to Nazi Germany because I do know that Debus was also part
of von Braun’s team at Peenemünde. And what he was
doing for von Braun there was, he was constructing the measuring
equipment for these stationary rocket test gantries that the
Nazis had built there. But he’s also got this connection
to the Bell.
Now this is why I find this question interesting, because
if you go into the Cooper-Cantwell documents (MAJIC 12 documents)—and
I’m not arguing for or against their authenticity; I’m
saying I’m looking only at the internal evidence of the
documents themselves—they kind of corroborate this picture
because what they suggest is that these Nazi Paperclip rocket
scientists were brought in to look at this Roswell wreckage.
And the first question that occurs to my mind: Well, why
bring in Nazi scientists if you suspect this is ET? You’re
gonna want to keep that as classified as possible from your
former enemy, okay? But you bring ’em in because it looks
And von Braun... Okay? You’ve got von Braun and Arthur
Rudolph and all these Nazi scientists looking at this stuff
and they come up with this explanation of what this is. It’s
some sort of Neutronic engine with fusion that’s taking
place, and so on and so forth. And that tells me that if that’s
true, then somebody—if it’s disinformation—somebody
knows that Debus and von Braun communicated something way back
in Nazi Germany and that von Braun knew enough about this other
secret project to be able to say that to his American interrogators.
Hence, we go back to that picture. What that picture represents
to me is that this two-track space program begins in World
War Two and in Nazi Germany. Because what do you have?
You’ve got rockets that are very visible. And you’ve
got this Bell thing and all of this secret stuff that really
doesn’t even come out until after German Reunification.
The Nazis are seeing to it that the Soviet Union and the United
States get the jets and the rockets, but they’re keeping
this to themselves.
BR: If they’re keeping it to themselves, what
have they been doing with it in the last 63 years?
JF: Excellent question. Because if you can imagine...
Let’s just go back. You’ve got Martin Bormann sitting
in Argentina, with a joint bank account with Juan Peron, that’s
sitting on top of almost eight hundred million dollars. That’s
a hefty chunk of change at that point in history. Properly
invested... and Bormann was a financial whiz. I mean there’s
no doubt about this. He knew how to move money and make money.
Properly invested, you can sustain this kind of independent
project, move it around. At some point I think it’s going
to require a partner if it’s gonna be made big and practical
and usable. Okay?
But yeah, in 63 years it’s very feasible to me that
they’ve worked out the medical bugs, you know, that you
can put somebody inside of one of these contraptions and fly
it around, okay? Yeah, it’s very conceivable that this
would be possible.
It’s conceivable to me that at an even earlier date
you could take aspects of that technology and wed it to more
conventional technologies to kind of boost their efficiency,
so to speak. This is why I think that picture of Debus and
von Braun at NASA is very telling, because if Debus is involved
in Apollo and in The Bell... Again, that to me points to an
alternative technology, possibly. That and other things. I’m
certainly not arguing the whole case on that.
So yeah, in 63 years what could they do with this? You know,
project the learning curve. You know, to me it’s very
feasible the medical issues have been solved. They may have
been able to find a practical application for free energy.
But you know, here’s the bad news: Once again, they may
have been able to weaponize this stuff. And that, to me, is
the scariest part.
BR: But if I understand you right, you’re suggesting
there’s an isolated group of Nazis; maybe their descendents...
BR: ...somewhere in South America, probably Argentina...
JF: Brazil, Chile... [laughs] Yeah.
BR: Etcetera, yeah. With access to this salvaged and
exported exotic technology...
BR: ...with continued funding and continued protection
BR: That are doing what? They’re not having to
pay their electricity bills? They’re flying around, looking
around, and weaponizing it against who? This doesn’t
seem to make sense on its own.
JF: Okay. Let me give you a context. The modern financial
meltdown, to me, is a sign that there is a breakdown occurring
between the old postwar détente. And what do I mean
by that? The founders of the Bilderberg Group were Lawrence
and David Rockefeller; a Rothschild was involved. That represented
kind of the Anglo-American corporate interest.
But on the European side, who is the principal founder? Prince
Bernhard of the Netherlands. Who’s Prince Bernhard? He’s
an SS officer. And therefore, if you still have an extant post-war
Nazi chain of command, and we’ve already mentioned that
we do... If you have an extant post-war Nazi chain of command,
then an SS officer like Bernhard answers to his chief, which
is Martin Bormann, who holds an SS four-star general’s
rank, okay? But Bernhard is also a vice president of—oh,
looky-looky—IG Farben, okay? Which, incidentally, I want
to point out, IG Farben was only finally completely liquidated
in what year?
BR: I have no idea.
JF: Yes. [laughs]
JF: This corporation was so big and so huge, and all
of these licensing agreements that it had all over the world
were in such a tangle that it took literally that long to finally
get rid of the whole thing. That’s an enormous amount
KC: But did Bormann report to von Braun?
JF: No. Von Braun reported... If anyone’s reporting
in that chain, it’s von Braun reporting to Bormann. Okay?
JF: But let’s get back to Prince Bernhard, because
present at these early Bilderberger meetings is a very significant
figure. It’s Dr. Hermann Josef Abs, who is the CEO of
Deutsche Bank, one of the world’s largest international
banks. The bank that, incidentally, cleared Bormann’s
check in Buenos Aires that was drawn on Manufacturers Hanover
and Chase Manhattan; big Rockefeller banks. Morgan Rockefeller
So putting all of these little pieces together, what it looks
like to me is that the Bilderberger group’s first secret
purpose after the war was to take all of this liquid cash that
is sitting in the hands of these post-war Nazis and move it
through these Western banks, make it available to these Western
bankers. And a lot of it, I suspect, was even kept off the
books. They’re laundering a huge amount of money, in
Now, here’s the problem. I like to say—and I thank
Richard Hoagland for this kind of analogy because he came out
with this one at a conference and I just love it: With
Martin Bormann we’re dealing with a Dick Cheney without
the warmth and charm.
So in other words, when they’re negotiating these deals,
you know: We agree with you. Corporate fascism is the way
to go and we’re agreed that world domination is kind
of a cool idea and we’re willing to play ball with each
other. And here’s a lot of money to do it. [laughs]
Well, when you’re dealing with someone like Bormann,
you’re dealing as I said, with Dick Cheney with no warmth
and charm. That money is going to come with a lot of strings
attached, and when the markers come due you’d better
be able to pay.
JF: And if... with Bormann you have an intelligence
organization that was headed up by his friend Heinrich Muller,
whom I also believe escaped Nazi Germany—the actual head
of the Gestapo—you’re dealing with people that
cannot only make threats, but carry them out, even against
the extremely wealthy and the extremely powerful.
KC: But the US won the war.
JF: Sort of.
KC: Why would the US let the Nazis go to Argentina,
with their blessing, without having their hands in that pie?
JF: Simple. Exactly. They’re got their hands in
JF: And Bormann, as I’ve said, has negotiated—again,
this is a part of... I know you’re under time constraints,
so for me to answer that question I’d have to keep you
here, okay, but...
KC: We [overtalk] a little time here [laughs].
JF: Well, basically what we have with Bormann is working
out a deal to surrender all these atom bomb components to the
United States. So in other words, Bormann already has a certain
amount of moral leverage over the United States. He could easily
expose the whole thing and expose the United States as having
made a deal with the devil. It’s kind of a classical
That’s part of the problem that we’re faced with.
And again, part of this deal includes all of this German military
intelligence that gets kind of slid into the CIA, you know,
but remains operationally under the control of the very same
Nazi general that it was in control of during the World War
BR: And there’s a whole bunch of mind control
technology. We haven’t even gone there.
JF: Oh yes! Exactly! I mean, on and on this goes, you
know. And for me the real point is, is once we make that deal
with the devil, we say: Okay, Martin (or whoever), we
need you to take care of some business and we don’t want
to sully our lily-white American hands with it. But we know
that you have the people who can do this.
Sure. But in doing this deal, any time that happens, you have
just put yourself in the position to be blackmailed and these
people will do it. In other words, they can expose you as being
involved in these, you know, sordid affairs around the world.
So I think the whole result of this deal with the devil...
and I think we begin to realize it right around the 1950s with
Eisenhower, because what’s he warn against when he leaves
office? Military-industrial complex. And he knows all of these
Nazis, okay? He knows these Nazis because he fought them.
And I think the warning he’s giving the American people,
and for that matter The West, as a matter of fact, is not so
much against the homegrown American military-industrial complex,
but who’s infiltrating and weeding their way into all
of these positions of power and influence within it—namely,
Nazis. This is a very... [searching for words] ... I’m
sorry to be so inarticulate here because I’m trying to
connect a lot of dots very quickly for you. But yeah, I think
the ultimate reason is: they’ve got a gun to the Anglo-American
And to bring it up to modern times, what... and again, I’m
simply speculating here in answer to your earlier question,
but the behavior of the corporate elite at the bailout hearings,
with this business of no oversight, and the kind of pronouncements
coming out of major banking leaders and families and groups
and so on, strike me as not being acted-out panic but genuine panic.
And as I go around the world I see panic, but it’s not
near the hysteria and pitch that it is in this country, coming
from Europe. There’s certainly panic in Iceland, but
it seems like the further east we go, the less panic and hysteria
But it’s this bailout without oversight idea that looks
to me... That’s the kind of behavior of someone who’s
being blackmailed with a gun to their head: Well, we want
a lot of money but we can’t tell you what it’s
BR: This is a very, very interesting thesis.
JF: Yeah. It’s very suspicious. Now to put it
in the context with Nazis, and I think the reason, perhaps,
for your question is that the only thing I see within the context
of recent history in the last 60 to 70 years that could put
that extremely powerful Anglo-American corporate banking interest
or elite in that kind of peril, is precisely an entity that
had enormous amounts of liquid capital that it moved into their
banks and left there for a very long time as part of the deal: We’ll
give you this money. Do with it what you will. Leave us alone.
BR: Is this the research angle that you would like to
follow in the coming months as more information becomes available
about the current crisis?
JF: I’m not really a conspiracy theorist. I touch
on these things only when it seems like the physics aspects
of it lead there. But I get asked this question a lot, so I’ve
kind of speculated, you know, reasoned out this kind of scenario.
But I can tell you this: I’m researching a book—writing
a book now—that deals with, I hope effectively, deeply-seated
and rooted reasons for this very strange connection between
physics and finance that seems to pop up over and over and
over again. And I’ll only say this: It’s very deeply
rooted and very, very old.
BR: Yes. That’s a beautiful thought to leave a
lot of people to ponder.
JF: [laughs] Leave them hanging.
BR: Something that Peter Levenda mentioned beautifully
succinctly when we talked to him last week. He said: Look,
the whole world can’t go broke. Someone’s got to
have the money.
BR: And something that seems very obvious to us when
we’re knocking this subject around between us, is that
if you look at all the black projects, all the modern-day equivalents
of the Bell experiments, wherever they are...
JF: Wherever they are.
BR: ...on this planet or even elsewhere, then, you know,
this is costing money. And if you think of money as energy,
it’s like where... You know, this energy is being drained
out of the global circuit, and it’s going somewhere.
JF: Where is it going? [laughs]
BR: Yes. Where is it going? Which is another way of
reframing the same question that I believe you’re asking.
JF: Exactly! Exactly.
BR: Now, just to draw together some of these strings,
and there are a lot of strings.
JF: Oh yes. [laughs]
BR: And I know that you don’t even pretend that
this is tidy.
JF: Oh no. I certainly don’t. [laughs]
BR: And it’s a little bit like the sort of, you
know, out-takes after a movie: What happened to this character?
What happened to that character? Are you assuming that
Hans Kammler ended up wherever Martin Bormann ended up?
BR: Okay. Are you assuming that the reason why the Nazis
never actually used their arguably well-developed nuclear technology...
And this is another whole interview to talk about the evidence
JF: Sure. Oh yeah. [laughs]
BR: But we support you in your thesis that it looks
like it was far more advanced than anyone has publicly given
them credit for.
JF: Right. Right.
BR: But they never used it, even though they tested
it and they had it for quite a few years. Was this because
they were planning to use it as a bargaining chip later?
JF: Possibly. But I think you could possibly also make
a case... Look, one of the things... I’m kind of a military
strategy games buff. I play these things all the time. It’s
my entertainment, you know. I do this like people watch TV
or movies, okay? And you know as well as I do that the Wehrmacht
on the Eastern Front achieved this just staggering kill ratio
against the Red Army, against the Russians.
BR: Yeah. Millions of Red soldiers.
JF: Half of the casualties of World War Two
were inflicted by the Nazi war machine on Soviet Russia.
BR: Yeah. And you know I had never understood how such
a tiny nation could go up against all the Russian soldiers...
JF: And just clobber... [laughing]
BR: ...and just knock ’em all out. I could just
never understand that.
JF: Exactly. And you know, from my amateur military
historian standpoint, conventional wisdom or operations here
fail to account for all of this. And incidentally, Russia recently—I
think in the last few years—disclosed the fact that its
actual casualties may have been as much as ten to fifteen million more than
that 25 million we’ve been told.
JF: So, you know, this tiny, bothersome little country
is not only fighting the United Kingdom, and later on the United
States, and virtually everybody else, but all of that to them
is just kind of a sideshow. This enormous military campaign
is taking place on the Eastern Front and, to my mind, as competent
and tactically brilliant as the German Army was, this doesn’t
explain it all to me. So there’s something else going
on here, and...
KC: Do you have a theory?
JF: Yeah. Oh yeah. I write about it in my first Nazi
book, Reich of the Black Sun. There are persistent
rumors that come out of Russia, beginning in the war, that
the Nazis are using something on the Eastern Front
that they are not using against the Western allies simply because,
of course, the Communists—the Bolsheviks—are their
ideological enemies, you know. So, yeah. They’re
subhuman. We can use all of this grisly technology we have
on them. But...
KC: Are you suggesting bio-warfare?
JF: No. I’m suggesting perhaps radiological bombs.
I am absolutely certain that they’re using some prototypical
or first-generation fuel-air bombs. And if you don’t
know what a fuel-air bomb is, that’s a conventional bomb
with the explosive punch of a tactical nuke. Now, I’ll
show... and I’ll go further. I’ll tell you how
they’re using them. They’re using them in rocket-launched
multi-barrel artillery batteries.
So if you can say the phrase tactical nuke and carpet
bombing, you get an idea of, you know, this carnage
that they’re inflicting on the Red Army. And it’s
so bad that in 1941 during the battle for Moscow when the
Germans are doing this stuff, the Soviets, through Sweden,
tell the Germans that if they don’t cease and desist
they’ll start using poison gas. You know, it’s
BR: But there are also... I mean, besides that fascinating
induction from those circumstances...
BR: ...there are eyewitness reports...
JF: Oh yes. Absolutely.
BR: ...of people who report something that looks exactly
like a nuclear blast.
JF: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. You’ve
got all of this stuff going on on the Eastern Front that is
inexplicable without, in my opinion, the use and deployment
of all of these advanced Nazi weapons. So that’s, I think,
why we don’t hear of it. And
a final point in that respect is, during the war Stalin’s
government is going to be loathe to admit that it is facing
an enemy that is that much more technologically superior.
BR: It’s embarrassing at least. [laughs]
JF: At the very least it’s embarrassing. But imagine
in the Red Army when the morale, with this slaughter, this
blood-letting that’s going on, that you have to have
Commissars literally threatening to shoot anyone who deserts,
just to maintain morale at some of these big battles. If Stalin
had admitted this publicly, it, number one, I think could have
so severely weakened his government that it might have cost
him his government, you know.
JF: And number two, had that been the case, it may have
brought in a government that would have been willing to sue
for peace. In fact, Stalin even tried to do that in 1942.
BR: Yes. And those reports of those generals; first
commanders, being willing to shoot the soldiers who would desert...
This is completely contrary to everything we understand about
the Russian psyche, the Russian personality, the Russian dogged
BR: It just doesn’t match, does it?
JF: It doesn’t. Exactly.
KC: I thought it was the Russian winter that stopped
JF: Well, I mean, we get... Yeah. There’s all
of this happy claptrap [Kerry laughs], especially in American,
you know, university and history textbooks.
JF: You know, America comes in and saves the day in
World War One. America comes in and saves the day in World
War Two, you know. To me, this is just military baloney.
JF: Because we come in fairly late. And if you look
at American campaigns in World War Two, we’re kind of
on the periphery of things all the time. The action’s
going on in the Soviet Union.
So, you know, yeah, General Winter and all that. But you can
argue against that thesis because in August of 1941 Adolph
Hitler turns Army Group Center, the Second Panzer Army, 650
miles south out of the way to encircle some Russian forces
in Kiev, when in front of them he’s 250 miles from Moscow
at the end of August [laughs] and they have decimated sixty
percent of the Red Army and he’s got one Russian rifle
division standing between him and Moscow. So the war was lost,
not by General Winter or General Mud, but by Hitler making
this dumb, stupid, silly, indefensible military decision to
take that detour. [laughs]
KC: Is it possible that even that is, you know, disinfo?
And that what really changed the war was the deals being made
with the Americans because they decided they were fighting
a losing battle and they were making monetary deals and getting
out of Germany because they wanted to rewrite history and go
in a different direction?
JF: Okay. Well, I think the deals begin to be struck—the
feelers are put out for them, certainly—in the period
from the fall of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad up to the failure
of the German offensive at Kursk in 1943; July of 1943. So
it’s this time period
KC: That’s early.
JF: That’s fairly early. After Kursk, the offensive
capability of the Wehrmacht is broken for a good year and a
half, okay? So it’s during this period that the Nazi
leadership quietly make the feelers, hope that the offensive
goes well, but they put out, they lay the foundation. After
the battle of Kursk, this kicks into high gear and you have
all of these secret negotiations taking place. Yeah. I think
you can make a certain argument that some of this history has
been deliberately doctored to hide this.
BR: It’s a reasonable assumption.
BR: Let me ask you one final question...
BR: ...although it’s an important one and it could
be a big one, and I don’t know whether it’s an
easy one or not.
BR: But that is: If there is such a thing as a central
power base of the Nazis now, where is it? Who are they? And
what strings are they pulling? And why should we care?
JF: Ah... Germany and some of the major politicians.
BR: Germany? Now?
JF: Germany. Yeah.
BR: Really! I didn’t know you were going to say
JF: Yeah, as surprising as it may seem. One of the things
that I looked at very carefully is the German Reunification.
When the Berlin Wall falls, it falls on the exact date—I
forget the exact numerical date in my head—but it falls
on the exact date of the anniversary of Kristallnacht in 1938.
JF: It falls... and that, incidentally, is the anniversary
of the Beer Hall Putsch. Okay?
JF: Now if you go back and recall what’s taking
place in East Germany at the time. There’s all these
mass meetings and demonstrations in Leipzig and Dresden of
a bunch of East German intellectuals that are pushing for the
reform of the East German state. They’re not pushing
But then an amazing thing happens—and this, to me, is
the dead giveaway—the meetings themselves begin to have
lots of neo-Nazis start attending. These people show up with
cell phones, computers, and lots of money, and using typical
Nazi tactics, strong-arm any opposition out of these meetings
and begin to kind of steer them so that even the popular slogans
that the reformers were chanting: Wir sind das Volk (We
are the people) is changed to Wir sind ein Volk.
BR: Ah. We are one people.
JF: Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fžhrer. Okay?
JF: Now, on the other side, Chancellor
government in Bonn is very quietly but very seriously channeling
money and driving this stuff. So, in other words, what I’m
saying: you cannot have neo-Nazi cells in communist Eastern
Europe suddenly popping up with cell phones, computers, all
this money, organized, ready to go, without having had an intelligence
structure in Eastern Europe to begin with to support it.
And when all of this activity happens—BANG—all
of a sudden Bonn has, ready to go, ready to hand, a plan for
reunification. And it’s basically a shotgun wedding and
it’s typical Hitler’s tactics: Well, we’ll
give you the opportunity to vote on whether you want reunification. And
again, what happens? When the referendum is held in those East
Germany provinces, the neo-Nazis show up and they are driving
some of this activity to keep people voting that are going
to vote for it and to keep people that don’t want that
BR: But isn’t this part of establishing one of
the central planks for the European Union?
JF: Oh, of course it is!
JF: But what does Martin Bormann say that he wants to
do after the war? He wants to create a European federation,
or confederation, which Germany will be able to dominate. And
listen to his words now: By elastic political means. In
other words, he’s learned to speak the lingo to a “T”.
BR: Okay. But are you saying, then, that whatever may
or may not be going on in America right now is divorced from
what you’ve just described? There’s no connection?
JF: Oh no, no. Not at all. I’ve very alarmed because
what I see happening in America within the last ten, twelve
years, is this emergence of a horrendous fascist police-state/snitch
culture. Oh absolutely. No, I wouldn’t say it’s
divorced from it at all.
But I am saying look to Europe and look at recent events very
carefully, and look especially at the events surrounding German
Reunification and the moves Germany made afterward—almost
immediately—to crack up Czechoslovakia and to crack up
Yugoslavia. Because, remember, it was West Germany, the recently-reunited
Germany, that was the first nation to recognize breakaway Croatia
over the opposition of Washington and London. They did that
And when Croatia got its independence, it turned around and
said: Oh, please help us. Will someone please help us?
Send peace keepers?—BANG—Germany sent troops.
BANG—Germany sent the Luftwaffe. BANG—Germany sold
off all that communist equipment to Croatia and re-equipped
the East German part of the newly-absorbed East German Army
with Bundeswehr equipment.
So look at Germany carefully. And it did a lot more. I mean,
go onto YouTube. This is a kick, because I found on YouTube
a Bundeswehr Wachbataillon doing a music drill show
in Cologne—okay?—in 2005! [laughs]
This just floored me because here in America, you know, [laughing]
we have no idea that this is going on. But they come marching
into this stadium, carrying the Bell Tree, drums a-blazing,
piping out Prussia’s glory. You know? So in other words,
I’m looking at a restoration of all of these old Prussian
military traditions right before my eyes, and the only thing
they’re not doing is the goose step. [laughs] I’m
But it scares me because I told some friends about five years
before the reunification even happened, I said: You watch.
If it does happen, they will slowly bring back all of those
military traditions. And now, you know, this two, three
years later, they’re holding Torchlight Tattoos with
the Bundeswehr again marching in, carrying the Bell Tree,
and all these old Prussian trappings, doing this Torchlight
Military Tattoo out in front of the Reichstag, you know. So,
it’s scary to me. I mean, it’s creepy.
KC: And also...
KC: Obama was... did a special...
JF: At the Siegessäule!
KC: At the Gate, right?—[ed. note: Brandenburg
Gate]—Which is supposed to be a very
important symbol of the event from the occult standpoint.
JF: Oh sure! Of course. Yeah. And I don’t think
this is a good symbolism at all. There are some people that
do, you know. I’m disagreed with my good friend Richard
Hoagland over this. But, you know, why do we have a presidential
candidate go to Berlin? Sure, it’s nice to have good
relations with Europe, obviously.
BR: It’s also got to do with the touch of the
JF: Yeah. It’s good to have good relations with
Moscow and Beijing, [laughs] you know, and that would seem
to me to be the logical place that you would go. But Berlin?
KC: But there’s some subliminal thing going on
JF: Oh sure.
KC: I mean, if they’re permeated NASA, they have
to permeate the undercover, you know, black projects...
KC: ...thoroughly, and that means they’ve permeated
the real secret government of the United States. So there’s
an alignment there.
JF: Okay. Ask yourself this: The Hadron
Collider, okay? You’ve got two huge counter-rotating
rings and they’re
gonna spin up these particles and smash ’em together.
Okay? I find that whole counter-rotating idea really weird,
you know, suggestively weird. But the really weird thing to
me is: Why is the first Christian Democratic Union Party Chancellor
of Germany after Köhl a physicist? [Ed. note: he is referring to Angela Merkel.]
JF: Did you know that?
BR: I did not.
JF: She’s a Ph.D. in physics. [laughs]
JF: Why is she a Ph.D. in physics?
BR: A Ph.D. in physics.
JF: Yeah. Now, you know what a German Ph.D. is like,
BR: I do.
JF: [laughs] You know, they don’t hand them out
by any means and this, to me... Why is someone like that even
in politics, but especially at that level? You know?
This is not a Ph.D. in physics becoming premier of Somalia,
you know. [laughs] This is a rather sophisticated nation, technologically.
So that to me, you know... it’s another little indicator
that we have to watch things over there very carefully.
BR: So now, what’s really fascinating here...
As you’ve kindly pointed out, we are under a pressure
of time this evening. We’ve only done nearly
two hours and we could probably do another four without even
thinking about it because there are so many places this conversation
JF: Oh yeah.
BR: I don’t know when we will next all be in the
same place at the same time, but right now I would like to
say that we’d love to talk to you again on audio to explore
some of these things.
JF: Sure. That’d be fine.
BR: And I’m quite sure I’m gonna wake up
tomorrow morning, if not go down right now in the escalator,
with a whole bunch of questions which I haven’t had a
chance to ask.
JF: Right. Right.
BR: What I do want to do is I want to thank you for
your diligence, your creativity, your articulateness in explaining
these concepts which are difficult for a lot of people to grasp
because this story is so huge.
JF: Oh yes.
BR: You’ve been describing that part of the iceberg
that is not often seen.
JF: Right. Right.
BR: Someone’s got to do it, and I think you’ve
done a wonderful job.
JF: Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
BR: It’s our pleasure and our privilege to assist
you in that, and we look forward to seeing you again, and we
look forward to talking to you again.
JF: It’ll be my pleasure.
BR: Thank you very much for your time.
JF: Thank you.
here for the