Peter Levenda: Sinister Forces
Audio interview, February 2009
Start of Interview
Kerry Cassidy (KC): This is Kerry Cassidy
and Bill Ryan, and we’re with Project Camelot. We’re
here on Thursday, February 12, 2009, and we’ve got Peter
Levenda. He is a wonderful researcher and author. He’s
very well known for his book, Sinister Forces, which
apparently is a three-book series. Also for his previous book
Alliance, delving into the background of the Nazis.
Peter, I just want to say hello. Thank you so much for taking
the time with us today. I have to say I am incredibly impressed
by your writing style as well as your honesty as a researcher
in the way that you write. You actually remind me a little
bit of Richard Dolan, and I think you know who he is because
you cite him a couple of times in your work.
Peter Levenda (PL): Certainly. And thank you, thank you very
much for the introduction. I’m very happy to be part
KC: Great. So what we wanted to do is give the listener
basically a background on where you come from, how you come
at this material, because I think that’s really important
-- the fact that it dovetails with a lot of what Richard Hoagland,
Jim Marrs, Joseph Farrell, and others are delving into, but
may even have pre-dated some of their work and their realizations
in this area.
And we’re talking about how the Nazis, how mind control,
and how... the direction America’s going and why we might
be going in a certain direction, and what the underpinning
occult significance is of all that. And I think your background
is just really stellar in this regard. So please just go from
here and tell us where you come from and where you’ve
been going with all of this.
PL: Well, I’ll try. I tried, back in the 1970s,
during the Watergate era, to write a book that was going to
explore the relationship between religion and politics, which
is a nexus that’s always fascinated me. We tend in the
United States to think of them as two separate entities.
But during Watergate I began to see a lot of the same personalities
crop up that we had run across during, oh, the Kennedy assassinations
and all of that, and I started to see deeper and deeper parallels.
So there was a book that came out in 1960, long before Watergate,
called The Morning of the Magicians. It was
written by two Frenchman, Pauwels and Bergier, and it talked
a great deal in there about a Nazi / occult connection, but
it was not documented at all. And I thought: That would
make a great chapter [Kerry laughs] in the book that
I was planning. Let me write something about the Nazis and
religion, or Nazis and occultism or mysticism.
And I went down to the National Archives in Washington, DC.
This was right at the height of Watergate. Nixon was still
in power. He was about to leave. It was a month or two before
he left, so the whole thing was at fever pitch in Washington.
But, oblivious to that in a sense, I was at the National Archives
looking at captured German documents. As I was in the National
Archives, the archivist there, a very famous archivist -- anyone
who studied the Nazis back in the ’70s and ’80s
would have known about Dr. Wolfe -- when he found out what
I was trying to do, he suggested that I look at the records
of an organization called the SS Ahnenerbe, which was actually
a division of the SS that was specifically concerned with occult
and mystical research. I was stunned.
He led me to the microfilm rolls. I started going through
the machines. And here I realized -- my jaw dropped -- I was
looking at the actual documentation of a full-fledged Nazi
program to investigate occultism.
Other authors had talked about a Nazi / occult connection.
The book, The Morning of the Magicians, talked
about it at length, but there was no documentation at all.
And some of the other books that had come out at that time,
for instance, The Spear of Destiny, and some of the
others, talked extensively about this but there was no documentation.
So it seemed like speculation until suddenly I’m staring
at all the documents -- page after page after page of research
in Tibet, Tibet expeditions. There was research to find the
Holy Grail. There was all sorts of bizarre SS programs that
were being financed heavily by the Nazis during World War Two.
So it got me thinking that maybe there is a lot of
documentation in the world. Maybe you can find evidence
of all of this without having to speculate too much. So the
Nazi documentation got me very excited.
I lived in New York City at the time. I’m from New York
City. I was talking to a lot of friends of mine who had their
roots in Latin America and South America. I read a book by
Ladislas Farago called Aftermath, which is about the
survival of war criminals, Nazi war criminals, in South America.
And I came across the mentioning of a weird establishment
in Chile called Colonia Dignidad the Colony of Righteousness.
This was supposed to be a kind of Nazi safe-house which was
also a weird religious group, high up in the Andes Mountains.
And I thought: This is just too good to pass up.
So here not only do I have the documentation from World War
Two, but now I have a real live Nazi sanctuary in South America
which is also a religious operation, which is exactly what
I was writing about.
So I decided to go to Chile -- this was in 1979 -- and see
this place for myself. This was during the time of the Pinochet
dictatorship. There was martial law in the country, but I managed
to make my way down to a small town halfway down the coast
of Chile called Parral. And close to this small town is the
colony, Colonia Dignidad.
I managed to go up there. The story is told at length in my
book, Unholy Alliance. But I managed to go there on
a Sunday morning in June of ’79, and I as briefly detained.
I was kept there. I was forbidden to leave. My passport was
taken. The film was taken out of my camera.
I was told by the Germans -- These were Germans. These were
not Chilenos. These were not Spanish people -- I was told by
the Germans that I was not welcome in the country, that I had
to leave Chile immediately.
And as I was allowed to leave, which was touch-and-go for
a while, all the way back to Santiago, to the capital where
I had my hotel room, I was stopped along the way. I was in
a bus and I was stopped along the way by troops who had set
up roadblocks, who were making sure that I was on that bus.
When I got back to my hotel room, there was a note waiting
for me that said I was on the next plane, that a reservation
had been made.
So the amount of influence that the Nazi network had in 1979... ’79
was so many years after the end of World War Two, you know.
We’re talking 25 years later. They still had such great
influence in a country so far away as Chile that I began to
see there was a lot more going on than even I suspected. And
that eventually became Unholy Alliance.
I began to see the connections between governments in Bolivia,
Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, an extensive Nazi network, a lot
of money that had left the Third Reich when the Nazis had lost
I began to realize that the Nazi Party was not a political
party the way we understand political parties, but that the
Nazi Party was a cult. If you look at it from that point of
view, you can understand the true nature of this kind of evil,
because the Nazi Party is... they’re not going to go
away simply because they lost the war.
The old war criminals who escaped -- and some of them are
still alive. A few of them have died recently in South America,
in Chile and Argentina. They have their followers. They have
their philosophy, their ideology.
Bill Ryan (BR): Forgive me for interrupting you, Peter.
BR: But it sounds implicit in what you’re saying,
then, that they have support from deep within the governments
of those South American countries.
PL: Well, sure. I mean, it depends on
which regime is in power at any given time. But let’s
take the example of Bolivia. Klaus Barbie, who was the “Butcher
of Lyon” in
France, who was a man responsible for all sorts of war crimes
in France, at one point became the chief of the secret police
of Bolivia. I mean, he had a federally-appointed position in
Walter Rauff lived for a very long time in Chile. Walter Rauff
was the man who designed the mobile gas chambers, the vans
that were used to re-channel the exhaust into the vans to kill
I mean, all of these people found safe haven, not only in
South America, but in the Middle East and in Asia as well,
and to a certain extent in Australia.
KC: And in the United States as well.
PL: Absolutely. Certainly. Of course we’ve had
many cases here in the United States of war criminals that
we’ve found, uncovered, and occasionally shipped back.
A famous one, which got me very involved in the story, was
the man who for a long time was the head of the Romanian Orthodox
Church in the United States. Here was an Archbishop who during
World War Two had been a member of the... what was the name...
the Iron Cross? The Iron Arrow, I think, a Romanian Nazi organization,
who had tortured prisoners.
Here was a man who was a devoted Nazi, who after the war was
over fled to the United States, and although he had no seminarial
training as far as I’ve been able to uncover, he managed
to take over one branch of the Romanian Orthodox Church in
our country, in the Midwest, and was not even discovered until
maybe 20 years ago, when he was forced to leave the country.
So yeah, we’ve helped a lot of people escape. The Catholic
Church, also, to a certain extent was involved in that, in
an operation called Caritas during World War Two,
which provided Vatican passports to help some of the more famous
war criminals escape to South America. So there was a lot of
And even in our own country, in the United States, we had Operation
Paperclip, in which we brought Nazi scientists over
to help with our space program, among other things.
So that got me working on what eventually became Sinister
Forces. I began to wonder how was it that we in the
United States could have sold our souls so easily to something
as heinous as a criminal organization like the SS, and to
the Nazis in general, to bring their scientists over here,
to make them work for us, and really to give them great jobs,
to give them positions in our industry.
Walter Dornberger is an example, who held a job on the board
of directors of Bell Helicopter. All sorts of people. People
who worked for the Space Medicine Program in Texas, at Randolph
Air Force Base. There’s a very big story there.
KC: Right. And that has tentacles that go to the whole
mind control aspect. I think that you cover that really wonderfully
in Sinister Forces. I mean, I can’t imagine
what you do in Book Two and Book Three, but
I have to say that that’s really a huge story.
PL: Well, I develop the same ideas. In Book Two I
focus a lot on the Charles Manson family, as a kind of quintessential
example of what sinister forces might be from the behavior
modification / mind control aspect.
And then in Book Three I sort of lay out what I think
is the whole story and how this works. I connect serial killers
to mind control operations and try to understand.
I mean, our country, the CIA in particular in the 1950s, 1960s,
all the way up through until about Watergate, until the 1970s
and the Rockefeller investigations, was involved in one of
the most bizarre experiments of modern times.
I mean, here we were, trying to figure out how the human consciousness
worked, how to understand memory, volition. How do we erase
a person’s memory, implant new memories? How do we make
a person do something they would not ordinarily do -- for instance,
commit an assassination? And then forget about it and not know
why they did it?
I mean, this was something like a medieval king, you might
think, hiring alchemists and magicians, you know, to contact
the other world. We were doing that in the 1950s and ’60s
and probably still are today.
We have operations in which we are trying to understand how
the mind works and then to control it. Like a sorcerer’s
apprentice, our intelligence agencies stuck their fingers into
human consciousness and started playing around with the contents.
BR: What’s the answer to your own question,
Peter, which you posed just a couple of minutes ago? About
how... I think the words you used were: How America could
have sold its soul to the extent where it not only brought
these Nazi scientists over to American shores to give them
great jobs but actually, seemingly, embraced their whole agenda
and took it much further?
Were there evil forces at work in America during the Second
World War? Or was this something that was opportunistic because
they realized the magic that they certainly held in their hands
and thought that they could use this to their own ends, and
it was too great a temptation to resist?
PL: Well, I think, as usual, the causes take place on
different levels simultaneously. I think to point in one direction
only might be a mistake. I think sometimes it’s desired
that we do look in a certain direction and not look in another
one -- the idea of misdirection.
I talk about sinister forces. I mean, that’s
the title of my series, and I took that title from Watergate
because that’s how I started this research. And “sinister
forces” were blamed for that famous 18.5 minute tape
gap on the Oval Office tapes, on Nixon’s office tapes,
where there was suddenly a big gap and no one knew what he
I think it was Alexander Haig or Buzhardt who
had said the tape, the hissing sound on the tape was the result
of sinister forces. And I liked that idea, that there was something
darker at work.
I think that in many cases what we see around us is theater,
a kind of theater, and that there are forces that are deeper,
darker, less visible, manipulating events. Or I like to think
that what we call coincidence and synchronicity is evidence
of the action of a darker force or a deeper force.
BR: And are these forces also much more ancient? Because
of course there are many researchers, possibly yourself, who
conclude that this whole thing, this whole dark agenda, had
its roots 2,000 or even 3,000 years ago and it’s been
growing steadily since then.
KC: Well actually in your book you’re talking
about going back into the mounds in America, so you’re
going back thousands if not millions of years. Right?
KC: And there’s also the allusion to Egypt and
the pyramids. And you’re talking about, you actually
have to get to possible off-world cultures, and how we humans,
how humanity began on this planet, when you go that deep, really.
PL: Well, when I started looking at the burial mounds...
The idea of the Indian burial mounds came to me sheerly by
accident, because I was researching Manson and I decided to
go where Charles Manson had grown up, which was a town called
Ashland in Kentucky.
I was struck by the fact that there were Indian burial mounds
right in the center of town. And I started to research that,
wondering what did that mean? I had never really come across
this before. This was brand new to me.
I started to look at the fact that these mounds are all over
the United States, especially east of the Mississippi, but
also west of the Mississippi to a certain extent.
I was struck by the fact that there was actually an ancient
civilization in America, in North America, that we have no
clue about. It was just as ancient as anything that was taking
place in the Middle East. The earthworks that they built were
in some cases more grand and a lot larger than the pyramids,
and we know so little about it.
I began to look at America as a kind of haunted house, and
I began to ask myself: What forces are there really at
The coincidences that we come across, especially a conspiracy
theorist... Anybody who begins to investigate -- the Kennedy
assassination is probably the most famous example -- will come
across dozens and then hundreds and then maybe thousands of “coincidental” connections,
between people, places, and events, which drives them crazy.
A regular historian, a mainstream historian’s going
to say: Well, that was a coincidence; and that was a coincidence;
and that was a coincidence, and dismiss them all because
he cannot see a real cause-and-effect relationship.
But to me, and it happens to all of us who investigate these
things, we find ourselves bedeviled by these coincidences.
I mean, I was researching Sinister Forces for a while
in Asia. I was in Southeast Asia in remote areas and I would
walk into an old second-hand bookstore and find books that
I needed for my research. They were books maybe on Charles
Manson or something that I had never heard of before. Scholarly
texts would suddenly appear. Or texts would appear that had
been written and printed privately by someone involved with
the group that I call “The Nine”.
All of this stuff would fall into my hands even though I was
in the middle of nowhere, nowhere near any sort of academic
structure, nowhere near a Barnes and Noble bookstore or anything
like that, [laughs] but just really in the middle of nowhere.
So the multiplication of these events, to me, is an indication
that something else is at work, that maybe we need a quantum
consciousness approach to history itself, not just to our own
minds in a kind of theoretical way or a spiritual...
KC: Absolutely. Absolutely.
PL: History. Yep.
KC: You’re talking about Puharich. I’m not
sure how you say his name.
KC: And that opens a can of worms around the mind control
and how the mind control itself seems to stem from those early
beginnings and the consciousness that supposedly Puharich actually
got into contact -- those “Nine” people -- of which
there are people that have written books since then and gotten
involved in supposedly being in contact with, if not those
intelligences, then others. Some call them the Giza Intelligences. So
it’s all going back to somewhere back there, as well.
PL: Well, yeah. I mean, if you begin with Puharich,
you can see the contours of what I’m talking about quite
clearly, because here was a man who was a researcher into the
paranormal, but he was also a captain in the U. S. Army and
a medial doctor, all of these things all together. And this
was all during the Korean War.
Here was a man who was giving lectures to the military on
how to weaponize ESP, you know, how to use man’s telekinetic
and telepathic powers as a weapon in the fight in the Cold
At the same time, he’s holding a séance or a
series of séances at a farmhouse in Maine to which he’s
invited a handful of people. But the people he’s invited
are some of the wealthiest families in America, the most powerful
families in America, “blue-bloods”, I mean, who
are descended from the signers of the Declaration of Independence.
The thing that fascinates me about this is that this is thoroughly
documented stuff. There’s no speculation about this at
all. Anyone can go and look it up and find out for themselves
that these people did meet, they conducted the séance,
they were in contact with some extraterrestrial or supernatural
group of beings which called themselves “The Nine.”
And we’re talking about people who were also tangentially
involved in the Kennedy assassination which would take place
ten, fifteen years after these events. I mean, it’s stunning.
I mean, you ask yourself: What is the connection? How could
this possibly be?
BR: Yes. What did you think of Picknett and Prince’s
book, The Stargate Conspiracy, that you must have
read as part of your research?
PL: I did read The Stargate Conspiracy and
I wanted to shout at Picknett and Prince: Just go a little
bit further! Go just a little bit more and you will see the
connections right back to the Kennedy assassination.
I was thrilled that they were writing about these events,
about “The Nine” also. They were writing about
Puharich. They had mentioned him. They had mentioned this group,
but they had not drawn the connection. They had not connected
the dot between, for instance, Arthur Young, who was a prominent
member of “The Nine”, a man who invented the Bell
Helicopter, which I had mentioned just a little while ago as
having been involved with Nazi scientists...
BR: When you talk about “The Nine”, are
you talking about a human group, or an off-world group? Or
is this an allusion to two groups of nine?
PL: Well, when I talk about “The Nine”,
I’m focusing first on the human group because those are
the names of the people that we know. But of course they were
considered to be the Earthly representatives of this spiritual
or extraterrestrial group that called themselves “The
BR: OK. What is that Earthly group of nine?
PL: Well, “The Nine” included families --
for instance, Arthur Young and his wife, Ruth Forbes Paine
Young, who is a relative of John Kerry’s, as a matter
of fact – John Forbes Kerry. So we have Arthur
Young and his wife, Ruth Forbes Paine Young.
We have a DuPont, we have an Astor, all as part of this group
as well as Puharich. So the Astor family was there -- a very
wealthy American and British family, the Astors. Of course
everyone knows the Astors and the Waldorf Astoria, etcetera,
etcetera. John Jacob Astor was on the Titanic. So
we have the Astor family.
We have the DuPonts, of course – extremely powerful,
wealthy, influential American family. And we have the Forbes
-- as in Forbes Magazine, Steve Forbes, and all of
that. That family was represented.
Her name was Ruth Forbes Paine. Paine was one of the original
signers of the Declaration of Independence. She is a direct
descent along that line by marriage. And Arthur Young himself,
the inventor of the Bell Helicopter.
So you have a family grouping here of some of the most aristocratic
family names in America. If we had royalty, they would DuPonts
and Astors, Forbes, and Paines.
BR: Did they call themselves “The Nine”?
Or is this your term for them? I mean, did they have an agenda
or some kind of thesis or reason for being together and were
recognized as a group of that size?
PL: Well, they called themselves “The Nine” in
this fashion: They held a séance. Puharich was conducting
a séance. He had a medium from India, a Dr. Vinod, and
Vinod was in telepathic communication with a group of beings
that was somehow in space, hovering over the Earth, and there
were nine of them.
And they told the group of nine individuals: We are nine,
and you are nine, therefore you are the Brahmins who are
going to bring a new wave of enlightenment, or a new wave
of evolution to the planet. We’re going to use you
as our vehicle for causing this kind of spiritual evolution,
this jumpstarting of evolution, if you will.
KC: And this was also a take-off on basically what the
Illuminati had been, their philosophy since the beginning of
the group that we call the Illuminati, of which these families
are all part?
PL: Well, that’s the implication. I mean, otherwise...
Why are these people, as I said before, some of the wealthiest
individuals in the United States, in Maine, in a barn, in the
woods, on New Year’s Eve, when they could have been anywhere
else in the world? They had the money, they had the wherewithal,
they had the connections. Instead, they’re holding séances
in the freezing cold, in the winter, in this barn.
What is the motivation for this? What is the purpose? How
did they know each other? We don’t know so much about
that. We know that Puharich was the guy bringing them all together
for the séance and they willingly went and took part
in this endeavor, not just once but several times.
So their motivation, on their own? I don’t know. I wouldn’t
want to speculate except to say we’re talking about the
most powerful people in our country at the time.
BR: And the analogy that you’re drawing here is
that there’s good evidence that the Nazis were doing
something similar, both before and during the war, and yet
you’re saying that this practice of powerful individuals
from powerful families in a powerful nation-state are suddenly
doing the same thing several decades later.
PL: Well, yes. I mean, less than ten years later. If
we count the end of World War Two as ’45, these people
were meeting in the early 1950s.
And what Himmler was doing, himself... I went and visited
in Germany the castle that he had renovated called Wewelsburg.
It’s near the town of Paderborn in Germany. And this
castle was developed by him to be a kind of Vatican for the
SS. It was going to be their spiritual headquarters.
He was conducting very similar rituals there. He had duplicated
a kind of “Roundtable”, a sort of Arthurian, Camelot
kind of idea. There would be 12 knights around it, which were
the highest ranking SS officers.
They would gather in meditation at this table, in a room which
was directly over a crypt, and in the crypt would be placed
urns containing the ashes of SS officers as they died, the
high ranking ones. There was special niche for each one. There
were swastikas engraved in the floors, and the whole nine yards.
And so, the similar idea of meditation, of trying to contact
supernatural beings to guide the SS, was now being duplicated
by a group called “The Nine.”
And if we think in terms of race -- you know the SS, like
all the Nazis, were obsessed with race and racial purity --
suddenly with “The Nine” we have, as I said, the
blue-blood of American families, DuPonts, Astors, Paines, Forbes.
We have this gathering of the... for want of a better word,
the most racially acceptable, to the Nazis, grouping in guided
meditations in the woods doing the same thing. Except there
were not twelve in this case. There were nine, very specifically.
So I’m not trying to draw too close a connection between
what the Nazis were doing and “The Nine.” The practices
were quite similar. It was a group séance. It was a
meditation. It was something to do with evolution of the race.
So you have a lot of the same themes.
KC: OK. But what you also, I think, continued to investigate
is to find out where that information that they were receiving
from “The Nine” went from there. Because I believe
there is a trail that connects through SRI [ed note: Stanford
Research Institute] and Hal Puthoff and Ingo
KC: ...remote viewing, and actually then circles back
and also has to do with people that were involved in mind control
then utilizing some of that information? And/or is it guiding,
for example, the agenda of the Illuminati to this day?
PL: Well, it certainly did make that route that you
just described, and the connective tissue in all of this, of
course, is Andrija Puharich. Puharich was the man largely credited
with having discovered Uri Geller, for instance, the famous
Israeli psychic. He brought Geller to SRI in California to
There was also a connection with SRI and that grouping, with
the people at Jonestown. The connections are vast with all
of this, and if you start pulling at the threads, you become
BR: What’s the connection with Jonestown?
PL: Well, yes. In Volume Two I have about 100
pages alone just on Jonestown because the amount of work that
has yet to be done just to decode that event is still leaning
on us. We really know very little about what really happened
Slowly but surely more and more information has been revealed
over the last 20 years or so, some of it by a good friend of
mine called Jim Hogan, an investigative journalist who spent
a lot of time researching Jonestown and came up with some of
the CIA documents to verify that Jim Jones himself was some
kind of contract agent with the CIA. He had what’s called
a 201 File at CIA. So we know there was a connection
But as far as the connection with SRI, I think it was Russell
Targ -- if I’m not mistaken, I believe it’s Russell
Targ who was the man who was involved with both Jonestown and
SRI and Hal Puthoff.
KC: There’s also the link back to Puharich as
working for the CIA.
PL: Yes. As far as Uri Geller was concerned, Geller
always said that Puharich was his handler for the CIA. He made
that statement several times.
But as far as SRI’s concerned, Russell Targ, the physicist
who was part of the SRI group, by his own admission was involved
with a group of Jonestown survivors. He was director of counseling
at their Human Freedom Center in Berkeley and left them to
join SRI to study psychic phenomena.
The group that he was working with, Elmer and Deanna Mertle,
after he left them, a few weeks after Targ left them to join
SRI, the Mertles were found dead, murdered execution-style
in their home. So the connection between Targ, SRI, and Jonestown
is definite. What it means, we don’t know.
But we do know that Targ worked with the Mertles, which was
a group of survivors of the Jonestown massacre, people who
had left the Jim Jones church, The People’s Temple, and
were trying to raise consciousness against it. They had written
a book about The People’s Temple and Targ was working
with them. He left to join SRI and a couple of weeks later,
the Mertles were dead, murdered execution-style.
KC: So you have to also say that with all of this what
happens is some people will fall on working for the positive
and some will be working actually for the negative agenda,
within the fact that there are connections between these organizations
-- because there is very definite connection between the CIA
and SRI. And between Puharich and CIA. So you get all these
connections with CIA. Gordon Novel, the Kennedy assassination.
All of these link back to the CIA. So it gets really convoluted.
It’s really fascinating.
I know that you’ve studied the occult in great depth.
Have you come to any conclusions? Are you going down some trails
now that perhaps are not publicized?
PL: Well, not publicized to the point that I don’t
quite know how to explain all of this yet in any way that makes
any kind of sense from an academic point of view, but it has
occurred to me during this kind of research... As I mentioned
before, I consider coincidence and synchronicity to be evidence
of the operation of these forces.
I think that these forces are there and I think that groups
of human beings from time to time make a conscious effort to
contact these forces, to manipulate them, to use them for their
I think that the CIA did that with MKULTRA and Operation
Bluebird and all of the mind control experiments they
If you take a human being and you try to manipulate their
consciousness, you try to erase their memories, replace their
memories, program them as assassins, as an example, then what
you’re doing is, you’re essentially initiating
that human being.
I mean, you’re putting them through a kind of spiritual
initiation, but with none of the safeguards, with none of the
spiritual preparation that a person would normally go through
to become protected against whatever demons are invoked in
the process. So it was a very irresponsible, callous, cruel
program that the CIA had undertaken at that time.
KC: Irresponsible or actually intentional? I mean, that’s
really the question, isn’t it, of the heads of the CIA,
If they knew what they were getting into? And they were invoking
these negative forces, in essence, and bringing them into the
bodies of programmed assassins -- and some of which are actually
sleeper agents that may indeed be part of our society at the
moment, sitting around waiting to be triggered.
In essence what you’re looking at could be an intentional
agenda. And that’s where it gets very interesting when
you’re starting to look at the future and what we’re
actually faced with.
PL: Well, yeah. I mean, I think one of the good indications
of just how bad it got was the man who was for a long time
in charge of this program at the CIA, called Sydney Gottlieb,
Dr. Sydney Gottlieb... When the MKULTRA project
was “disbanded” by Richard Helms in the mid-1970s,
Gottlieb went a little weird. He at one point became a Buddhist
monk. He went to India. He tried to essentially pay for his
He wouldn’t talk about this program anymore but he became
a kind of recluse and was obviously trying to live simply.
He was living off the land. He was living in a farmhouse, I
believe in Virginia, after he came back from India. He was
a man who was shattered by the realizations of what he had
done, by the sins that he had committed against other human
So if the leader, if the creator, or the handmaiden of this
operation felt that way, I wonder what the actual day-to-day
perpetrators felt, the people who were actually involved in
the day-to-day programming of these individuals.
I think there is a tremendous amount of evidence to suggest
that Sirhan Sirhan was just exactly one of those assassins
who had been created. I’ve gone through Sirhan’s
diaries, the diaries he was keeping up to the point he was
arrested for the assassination of Senator Robert Kennedy.
BR: And he has no idea what happened, does he?
PL: He doesn’t. I mean, he admits he did it because
he figures, you know, he did it. I mean, if he’s arrested
for it and he was there, he must have done it. But he has no
memory of it. And his diaries are extremely suggestive of someone
who’s been through a behavior modification program, something
like a mind control program. It’s fascinating stuff.
BR: I read a wonderful book which I’ve got. I
also had the experience of what I guess you could call the
International Library Angel suddenly depositing a book at your
feet when you’re traveling. [laughs] It was a book by
Long John Nebel who was the Art Bell radio host of his day,
who operated in the 1950s, who wrote an amazing book about
the Control of Candy Jones. You must be familiar with that.
PL: Yeah, I do. I’m fascinated by that account
as well and I think it’s genuine. It’s been attacked,
of course, by other researchers and authors by saying that
Long John Nebel kind of made it up or Candy Jones never went
But if you really go through as I do, which is the thing that
I do, is I go through and I try to document what goes on. I
met Candy Jones a couple of years before she died. I was actually
interviewed by her on radio in New York City.
And from my point of view, what she discusses, especially
her trips in Asia and Taiwan, have the absolute ring of truth.
I mean, I lived in Asia for a long time. I traveled in those
countries. The things that she discusses I believe actually
did occur. I think that she did not make them up. I can recognize
the places she’s talking about.
BR: I read that book several times and it rang very,
very true to me.
PL: Yeah. It was not a sensationalistic thing that she
was making up. I really do believe what she said happened had
KC: So where are you going now with everything? Because
you don’t really keep your blog up. You had been talking
about McCain as a possible mind control victim, and I think
there’s great evidence to that effect. I’d be interested
to hear what you have to say about Obama. I don’t know
what your current situation is. The Powers That Be, are they
aware of you? Have they made your life difficult? Because you
seem to be one of the best researchers actually pulling these
threads together in one place.
BR: And what does this mean for us at the beginning
of 2009, looking at the next few years, and what this may mean
for this country and the world?
PL: Yeah. These are very good questions. I took a little
time out for a while to get a graduate degree in religion and
the thesis that I wrote, I published as Stairway to Heaven, which
came out about a year ago. I have another book on the Freemasons
which is coming out in April. I’ve kept my hand in all
of this but I’ve been doing a lot of academic-type work
on the one hand, and then a lot of investigative work, on the
The political situation: The way I look at it these days,
as I mentioned before, is theater. It is basically theater.
We are watching a play being acted out in front of us, and
we’re all willing or unwilling audience members in this
I think we have to not believe a lot of what we see, as being “real.” It’s
a kind of consensus reality. We all kind of agree that certain
things are real and certain things are not.
And I always like to talk about the root of the word reality,
because the word comes from a very interesting Indo-European
root which also gives us royal. It gives us what is real and
what is royal. And basically what that means is, to
me: “Whatever the king says is real is real.”
In other words, there’s a kind of agreement that we
all enter into, a kind of contract where we agree that certain
things are, and certain things are not, real. And
I think we’ve come to the point where we have to revisit
what we call real. We have to revisit reality to a
certain extent. We have to come up with a new paradigm, a new
way of looking at reality, because it’s not working for
us, the old way of looking at it.
We’re too easily manipulated. Our country has made a
science of the manipulation of reality since at least the Korean
War, if not before.
Communication science, which is being taught in the universities
all across the country, came into being as a result of World
War Two and psychological warfare studies. I mean, the same
guys who created psychological warfare for use during the war
were the guys who in the private sector developed programs
for teaching advertising, marketing, and communication.
BR: Mm hm.
PL: So we are really struggling with psychological warfare
being directed against by manipulating our reality.
KC: Right. A form of propaganda and mind control in
and of itself, just as television becomes in a sense a mind
PL: On a massive, massive scale. I used to live, as
I mentioned, in Asia, and we would get CNN out there. I don’t
want to single out CNN particularly for opprobrium, but they
are sort of an international news organization that you can
pick up on cable channels all over the world.
There was one particular instance where I’m in Kuala
Lumpur and there was a riot going on on CNN, on television,
in a restaurant. It was being carried live. And we’re
looking at the television screen, and we’re at the site
where this riot is supposed to be taking place. And there’s
no riot there! [Kerry laughs]
We’re watching and we’re all looking at each other.
We’re watching the screen and we’re saying: What
It turns out there were three or four people in a corner somewhere
and a camera was on them. And the way it looked, it looked
as if there were all of these really angry people rioting.
I was getting a phone call from friends of mine saying: Go
away! Get out! There’s a riot taking place. We can
see it on television. And we’re all sitting in
the restaurant saying: Well, where’s the riot?
You know, there is no riot. I mean, it was manufactured news,
essentially. And if that happened that one time, how many other
times has this happened? How much of our news is being manipulated
or controlled or created, you know, as we watch it?
KC: Right, but as a researcher going into this as deeply
as you have, you must be able to look towards the future and
come to certain conclusions, and / or think about certain uninvestigated
trails to look down.
I am curious: Do you think, for example, there are sleeper
agents? Because, you know, we keep having these incidents happen
and they seem to be evidence of mind control operations, in
which you have school kids suddenly flipping out, and so on
and so forth. Where’s it all headed?
PL: Well, if we characterize the agents of this madness
as individual human beings, we might be missing something darker
and something deeper. I believe that there are individual agents,
of course, and that’s what I investigate. That’s
what I write about. That’s where the evidence leads me.
But sometimes I think that there is something else at work
here. I think that there is a kind of level of consciousness
that is creating this for us as well, and that we’re
victims of it because we haven’t learned how to fight
back. We haven’t learned how to take control of our own
consciousness. We’re essentially allowing others to do
that for us.
I think that we have a kind of responsibility, perhaps now
more than ever, because the information is available to us,
of fighting back by taking control of our own minds, and taking
back control of our own consciousness, of trying to deprogram
ourselves, if you will, away from what we’re being fed
on an almost hysterical basis.
I mean, things have ramped up to the point where paranoia,
fear, anxiety, stress levels have increased so exponentially,
it’s as if someone wants us to have this collective
nervous breakdown. We have to take a stand and fight against
I think that if my research has shown nothing [else], it’s
shown that humans who are involved in this quite often don’t
really understand it that well themselves. I’m talking
about the CIA.
I don’t think that the people who ran MKULTRA really
understood the full ramifications of what they were doing.
They had a very narrow focus. They wanted to create deniable
assassins, as an example, and that was their focus. They didn’t
realize the other forces they were unleashing at the time.
And I think that there are paths, there are shamanistic paths,
there are paths in the occult that might be actually beneficial
for us to investigate to understand how we’ve been manipulated,
how our consciousness has been manipulated, our reality itself
has been manipulated. I think we have a chance because there
is such an amount of information available.
But we are headed into a very dangerous impasse, a very dangerous
place. I agree. But I think that we don’t realize how
much power we have as individual human beings, or as small
groups of individual human beings, to combat this madness.
And I think we can take back our minds and our lives
from these forces, from these sinister forces.
BR: Are you able to say anything, do you feel, about
the role of the Vatican?
PL: Ah... [laughter] How much time do you have?
BR: You know about the work of Eric Phelps and that
large body of research that he, among many others, represents.
I just wondered if you could pull some of those threads together
once again for the benefit of our listeners who would like
to see as much of a summary of the big picture as you are able
to present here.
PL: Right. I grew up as a Roman Catholic. I was born
into a Catholic family in the pre-Vatican II days. And when
Vatican II happened, I was actually kind of disappointed. I
didn’t like all of the, you know, guitar-playing Masses
that were taking place and all this stuff. I felt a little
cheated of the mystery, somehow.
But then, as I started to research the Nazi information, that’s
when Phase One of my disenchantment or dis-enlightenment, or
whatever you want to call it, took place.
And that was understanding the degree to which elements within
the Vatican had assisted war criminals with hideous records
to escape; how they protected them at safe-houses throughout
Europe and then in Latin America; how they gave them Vatican
passports; how we had the spectacle of Nazi war criminals dressed
as priests entering Argentina, entering Brazil, in one case
performing a marriage ceremony as a priest.
I mean, I can’t even imagine what that poor family would
have felt, had they known that it was a man responsible for
the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of people blessing
their union as a fake priest. So all of this began to... that
was Phase One.
Phase Two was realizing that what we’ve been told about
Christianity itself, particularly about the Catholic Church,
is based on so much disinformation and so much manipulation
of history and historical facts that we really don’t
know what the Catholic Church is any more, or what it ever
was. We don’t know what’s going on there.
I mean, the Vatican scandals... The Masonic scandals, the
Propaganda Due, the P2 Masonic scandal alone should have alerted
people to the degree of perfidy and cupidity that was taking
place within the Vatican.
I mean, we had Licio Gelli and Roberto Calvi, all of these
characters who were heavily involved in the Vatican and at
the same time financing right-wing terror squads, assassination
squads, in Europe, in Latin America, working with Francisco
Franco -- the dictator of Spain for so many years -- heavily
involved with fascist organizations and operations.
It was mind-numbing, the extent to which this was taking place.
So I have a very hard time. You know, I’m thankfully
a very lapsed Catholic. You know, I want to stay that way.
I can’t believe that I would go to the Bishops, Archbishops
of the Catholic Church and accept spiritual guidance from people
whose own morals and ethics I have to question on almost a
KC: Well, also there’s a link between the Vatican,
the Illuminati, and the US government, apparently. Can you
talk about that a little bit? Because when you’re talking
about the Nazi influence in America, and you’re talking
also about The Powers That Be with Paperclip, the
Ultimate Space Program, and all of the levels at which the
Vatican is involved... From what I understand their secret
service was basically the model upon which secret services
all over the world have been built.
PL: Well, sure. In fact, even the SS... the Nazis emulated
the Jesuits. I mean, Himmler wanted to create a Jesuit Order
for himself, and that was what the SS was, hence the black
uniforms, and the rituals in the churches, and the rituals
at night in the forests, and all this other stuff. It was a
kind of pagan Jesuit Order that Himmler was trying to create.
I mean, people may have disliked or even hated the Catholic
Church or the Vatican, but there was so much of it that they
wanted to emulate, that they wanted to duplicate. But the problem
is that we have so much information to discuss that it would
take hours to get into it. I’ll just bring up one or
two points that will be enough to scare you, and probably...
I think the place to look in the beginning, if you want to
see the connection between the Vatican, Nazis, and even the
Illuminati, would be the Knights of Malta and some of the other
chivalric orders that the Vatican maintains and supports.
I won’t even go into Opus Dei which is a whole other
kettle of fish by itself. I mean, we’re talking about
a man who created that order who had pro-fascist, pro-Franco
sentiments. I mean, there’s no question about it. And
how he could be canonized is absolutely beyond me.
But anyway, look at the Knights of Malta. Look at the connection
between the leaders of the CIA, many of whom were Roman Catholics,
members of the Knights of Malta or members of one of the other
chivalric orders around the Vatican.
When I was growing up in the Bronx in the 1960s, I saw with
my own eyes the influence that churches had with intelligence
agencies, and intelligence agencies with the churches. I mean,
I witnessed it as a young man of 18, 19 years old, working
with a church in the Bronx that was heavily involved with intelligence
operations, which was actually a front for intelligence operations.
And that brings us back again to David Ferrie and Jack Martin
and the Kennedy assassinations, because I met the Bishops who
ordained and consecrated David Ferrie, Jack Martin, all these
peripheral figures that you saw in the movie JFK,
you know, being played by Joe Pesche, being played by Walter
Matthau, I think.
These were people who were heavily involved in a church. They
were also involved in intelligence activities. They were also
involved in anti-Castro Cuban activities and considered to
be involved, in one way, shape, or form, with the assassination
of a president in Dallas.
So the nexus between religious organizations and intelligence
organizations is thick. It’s just thick, you know.
And like I say, I saw it with my own eyes. I know the church
that Ferrie and Martin belonged to in 1968 when Jim Garrison
was starting ramping up that investigation into the Kennedy
assassination. David Ferrie died mysteriously, but he was a
priest and a Bishop with one of these churches. So...
KC: Don’t you also get into, maybe, what’s
going on with the agenda, in terms of how this plays out? For
example, in the economy of the world going downhill, and the
desire for the One World Government. And how there’re
certain problems being created so that a solution can be created,
as you know possibly David Icke’s work in that area?
So what I’m wondering is, are you following those threads?
Obviously you see the economy going down in America and around
the world. There are sacrifices, blood sacrifices. Some of
these things, or maybe even all of them, are actually planned as
some kinds of sacrifices to these hidden, dark entities in
order to make certain things happen upon this planet.
PL: Well, if we don’t characterize the economic
situation as a purely economic situation, I think we can see
more clearly what’s taking place. In a previous era,
this might have been a vast military conflict. It might have
been a World War Three, or a World War Four or something.
Now we’re fighting that same war but we’re using
economics to do it. This is a different approach to the same
type of general control that’s being exerted over the
I mean, the whole world cannot go broke. The money is somewhere.
That’s the funny thing. The humorous part of this thing,
if you want to be funny about it... that fact, you know, we’re
thinking the whole world economy is going down. But basically
what happens, especially with capitalism, is somebody gets
rich and somebody gets poor. So who’s getting rich?
During Watergate we were told to follow the money. And I think
if we follow the money today, we can find out who’s doing
what to whom. We can find out who’s actually doing this
kind of control.
I’ve been looking at it. I’ve been trying. Following
the money in today’s economy is extremely difficult to
do. I think even members of congress are finding themselves
totally unable to even explain what’s happening. Some
of them are not able. Some of them are strictly not willing.
But if we can follow the money, if we can start pulling the
threads on the money over the last 12 to 18 months, we can
probably figure out who’s behind this thing.
For me, it’s been very difficult to do although I’ve
been trying to cover it. I think the answer is out there. I
think, as Fox Mulder used to say: The truth is out there.
But we have to look at the evidence, and the evidence is there.
It’s just it’s very hard to figure out.
If we’re talking about manipulation of the world economy,
it’s because we’re being prepared for something
else. Obviously there’s an agenda. It’s not strictly
to make some people rich at the expense of others. That’s
been going on forever. We don’t need a collapse in the
world economy to do that.
So if a collapse is being engineered in the world economy,
it’s to create a circumstance or a set of circumstances
conducive to another phase of action which has nothing to do
with the economy. As you said, it might be a One World Government
-- possibly. It might be something more heinous than that.
A collapse of the economy may be a way to keep in place the
types of controls that were put into our government during
the last eight years. It may be a way of preempting any kind
of change that we thought we were voting for -- some of us
anyway. So there may be a way to...
As 9/11 essentially was a Reichstag fire which gave the president
total control of the government, in terms of the Patriot Act
and everything else, the collapse in the economy is essentially
another 9/11, and it’s going to give the government additional
powers that it never had.
BR: It’s just another kind of controlled demolition.
PL: It’s another kind of controlled demolition.
It’s a... what’s the word I’m looking for...
a consolidation of all of this.
If we put the Patriot Act and some of the other things that
took place -- the wiretaps, the illegal stuff that’s
been going on -- and we now couple that with government control
of banks and corporations, you know, we have fascism.
Some people are talking about creating socialism or communism
here, but fascism is also a wedding between the state and the
corporation. It’s not just socialism that we’re
The one thing that nobody wants to talk about is the fact
that we’ve been creeping closer and closer to fascism
in the last 40 or 50 years. And that scares me, believe it
or not, more than socialism does or even communism. What frightens
me most is a kind of fascism, an American style of fascism.
KC: Well, I mean, this is the premise of Jim Marrs’ book,
as you know.
KC: And it is a basically a fait accompli in
the minds of many, even behind the scenes, with Richard Hoagland
and his investigation into NASA and the symbolism there, and
the Paperclip background behind, you know, the space
program. So the agenda seems to have been a kind of fascism
that stemmed out of World War Two and is being continued today.
But where is that going? Once they have total control, then
what? You know, it’s almost like they already have total
control as it is. One wonders: What next?
And the only thing we’ve gotten so far in our study
of this mystery is the idea of population elimination. In other
words, they want to eliminate large segments of the population.
They haven’t been able to do so with other means, with
viruses and so on.
In other words, this control you’re talking about has
to lead to some thing, because control is something
they’ve, in a sense, always had. But they’re tightening
it, and as you say, they’re consolidating it. So with
what purpose in mind?
PL: Well, that’s another good question and it’s
something, too, that would probably take a long time to try
to analyze. I think that “The Powers That Be” are
not 100% happy yet. They don’t really feel they have
the kind of control they would like.
Part of the reason for that is the explosion of technology,
which seems to be getting out of control. You don’t notice
it perhaps as much in this country as you would overseas where
this kind of technology, the internet in particular, has given
people at the grassroots level a voice they never had before.
So the governments in those parts of the world, especially
in developing countries, are struggling very hard to control
the technology and control access to information.
Right now we are talking over the internet and this will be
available on the internet, so people who want to can hear it.
But this kind of control eventually will probably have to be
extended over what we’re doing over the internet, over
the free exchange of information.
I think it’s already started and I think it’s
going to continue until there is control over information.
And once you control information, you control reality. You
control consciousness. Once the independent operators are gone,
once they’ve been closed down, there will only be the
party line that’s left.
BR: That’s 1984, isn’t it?
PL: Well, it is 1984. Some people listening
to this are gonna say to themselves: You know, these are
the aluminum hat people. You know, the tin-foil hats.
We’re all worried about vast conspiracies taking control.
I want to tell you something, to the listeners who maybe think
that at times this is out in left field. I was on somewhat
friendly terms with a man called Norman Mailer, a famous author,
one of America’s most famous novelists and journalists
and authors, who passed away recently -- a man I admired very
much. He was kind enough to praise my own work and write a
foreword to Unholy Alliance.
He spoke in my presence about the fact that America was heading
towards fascism. Many people of that social setting, other
authors, some of them Pulitzer Prize-winning authors, people
who are understood to be great thinkers, great members of the intelligencia,
have all said the same thing to me or in my presence, that
we are heading towards fascism, that America...
According to Norman mailer, back a couple of years ago, he
said America was in what he called a pre-fascist condition,
but that we were heading inexorably towards fascism. Other
authors since then have said the same thing.
So this is not something that only a handful of people on
the absolute fringe are feeling. These are things that are
being felt on other levels by other people who are not involved
in this kind of investigation, people who are not doing this
kind of research, people who have just opened their eyes and
who’ve looked around and said: My goodness, this
is what’s going on. We’re becoming a fascist country.
BR: One of the things that confuses people sometimes,
as you must be well aware, is the idea that somehow there’s
a spectrum with socialism on the left and fascism on the right
and the two are very different. Actually, they meet in the
middle, kind of loop round in a kind of circle, one going to
the left and one going to the right. Extreme socialism and
extreme fascism are actually very similar.
PL: That’s the point I was just going to make.
To have fascism or to have socialism, you have to have a marriage
between the state and business. I mean, that’s how it’s
Either the government owns the means of production as it does
in a socialist or a communist country, or the state and the
corporations have a working relationship, a nice working relationship,
as Eisenhower warned us about when he left office. He talked
about the military / industrial complex and how frightened
he was that that was happening. That is fascism.
So, does it matter to the average person whether or not the
government owns the means of production or the government and
the state and the corporations are in bed together? Does it
really matter to us on the street?
It’s going to be the same effect. We’re still
going to be controlled. Our economy’s going to be controlled.
Our freedoms are going to be drastically curtailed. So in the
end, what difference does it make?
I’ve talked to people about 9/11 a lot. There’s
been, of course, a lot of discussion about 9/11. And I’ve
always said it was a Reichstag fire. It’s what happened
in Germany. How Hitler took complete control of the government
was the Reichstag burned down and he blamed the communists
And my point was, do we really care who burned down the Reichstag
at this point? All we really care about is the fact that it
brought Hitler to power.
So in our case, what did 9/11 do? It pushed all of these heinous
attacks on our liberty and our privacy. It pushed them right
into the forefront. It made it acceptable. That’s what
happened. That was the real effect of all of this.
We can talk about 9/11 -- for instance, we can talk about
conspiracies. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that
what happened, the effect of it, was that we lost more liberty,
we lost more privacy.
KC: Right. And so then that gets back to the overall
KC: And it’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s
a conspiracy fact when you look at all the evidence. And what’s
happening is that this particular agenda is being rolled out.
And, of course, it’s very heartening that you do talk
about how consciousness and the role of consciousness was getting
out of the hands of the people in MKULTRA, such that
people like Gottlieb himself, who was certainly one of the
masterminds behind all of that, goes on his own sojourn to
India, looking for some kind of spiritual way out, I think,
of the responsibility for which he... You know, it’s
basically like walking around in some kind of living hell,
I’m sure, being inside that guy’s head.
And so, in essence, all of this is playing out in the microcosm
around the globe, not just America, because I see it in many
countries. In fact, England has the best surveillance system
on the streets, cameras, etcetera. So what’s happening
is, on some level it seems to be manifesting in America sort
of in a more overt way. But in a covert way, it’s actually
existed in small countries, under despots that were financed
by the CIA, and then across the globe, masterminding the governments
behind countries like Switzerland, and so on.
PL: Well, I mean, what’s very amusing to me in
a sardonic sort of way is the fact that in the United States
if you talk about conspiracies, you’re pooh-poohed. You’re
shot down. It’s considered, you know, paranoid fantasy.
And yet we recognize without hesitation the fact that conspiracies
like this exist in every other country on the planet. Right?
So when Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister of Pakistan,
was gunned down last year in Pakistan, everyone said of course
it was a conspiracy. There were elements of the Pakistani secret
police involved. Al Quaeda may be involved, or the Taliban,
or who knows what. But automatically it was a conspiracy.
However, according to mainstream historians, not a single
person assassinated in this country has ever been assassinated
by a conspiracy! [laughs] No conspiracy. Nothing to see
here. Move along. Right? We have this idea somehow that the
U. S. is immune to these events.
And yet we overthrow dictators in foreign countries. We’ve
overthrown and committed assassinations in Guatemala, in Iran
back in the days of the Shah. We overthrew the government of
Allende in Chile. We put Pinochet in power. All of these things
we do on a regular basis and we’ve done it for years
and years and years. And yet somehow it doesn’t take
place inside the United States. Why is that? Why is it so impossible
KC: Right. And I think, though, nowadays it’s
a lot easier to sort of get people to, not so much believe,
but really understand the roots of conspiracy. And ever since
the death of Kennedy I think that America’s eyes have
slowly been opened along those lines, at least many. Although
certainly 9/11, you still get people not able to accept the
possibility that a conspiracy took place there.
So again, I guess we’ve gone full circle with you. In
many ways we’re going over some material here that is
just... the roots are everywhere. The conspiracies, if you
will, are everywhere.
It’s very heartening to know that you are behind the
wheel, investigating all of this and documenting it and pulling
as many threads together as you are. I encourage people to
follow your work. I certainly want to read a lot more that
PL: Where I’m going now? I’m still in the
midst of all of this, you know? I’m still in the midst
of researching. I don’t know what my next book will be.
As I had mentioned, I have a book on Freemasons coming out
in April, which is kind of a look at the connection between
the Masonic society and the Mormons, and some of the occultism
that was taking place in our country before, during, and after
the Revolution, the American Revolution. So I look at the connections
that were there.
It’s kind of a general look at Freemasonry. I’m
not a Freemason myself, of course. That’s coming out
Stairway to Heaven was really more about Kabbalah
and Chinese alchemy and that sort of thing, a very spiritually
oriented book trying to understand some of the implications
of some of the ancient writings.
So, where I’m going to go from here? I’m constantly
collecting information. I’m constantly building up files
of data, trying to see more connections, and I’m sure
I’ll have something like this to share with you soon.
KC: That’s fabulous. One thing I do want to ask
you, the book you were talking about that you investigated
the occult quite deeply...
PL: I was involved with it. Yeah. The Necronomicon. Of
course. I mean, I made no secret of that. I’ve done some
interviews based on that. That was an occult work that, I think
today it’s one of the critical texts, probably, of the
mid-20th century on occultism. It’s been reviled by a
lot of people. People claim it’s a hoax. Other people
say it’s a very terrible book, or it’s a very powerful
I look at it as the survival of an old Middle Eastern occult
practice which involved a process of initiations, going through
a series of “gates”, gaining greater and greater
illumination or enlightenment at each time, each passing of
the “gate”. It’s an interesting book and
the events around it were interesting as well.
KC: We’ll have to revisit that with you because
I’m fascinated by that as well.
KC: Well, thank you, Peter. This has been fascinating.
We’re both really very interested in what you’re
gonna be doing in the future, as well as to get into your work
after this conversation. And thank you for taking the time
today to talk to us.
PL: It was my pleasure. Thank you very much.