Is Vegan/Vegetarian an Illuminati Deception?

[Lorien]

Originally Posted by Metaphor

Fellow avalonians.
Oh no, another vegetarian thread. It can easily divide a forum faster than light. Gotta balance my words.

I can only speak for myself. Of course this is a very private choice.
I have excluded all meat except seafood/ fish from my diet I can only say the choice came simultaneously with my "awakening" 1 1/2 year ago.
Going vegan seems far fetched though IMO.
I cannot say that there has been any major health improvements but a more functional stomach. My body sometimes crave for meat, but I don´t give in to it.
I am eternal consciousness i.e. "eternal love" not the lump of meat I incarnate. Would "love" eat the babies of lambs or cows? Questionable.
Don´t we get mad when we hear stories about reptilians eating the inferior humans or our little children. Do we do the same to inferior species? Yes we do. They have the upper hand until we consider a more humane treatment to our animals and the earth. That doesn´t mean that if everybody goes vegan we will be saved...

I'm just curious, What makes the babies of lambs and cows any more important than the babies of crabs and fish, or ants for that matter?? Why can you eat one living creature but not the other??

And yes I would get quite angry if I heard a reptilian ate someones baby, however I would be equally angry if that same persons baby was eaten by a shark or a lion. At what point is there a separation where it's either ok or not for one living being to consume another?

Personally I am a meat eater. Always have been and always will be until something major happens to convince me otherwise.

[Metaphor]

Originally Posted by Lorien

I'm just curious, What makes the babies of lambs and cows any more important than the babies of crabs and fish, or ants for that matter?? Why can you eat one living creature but not the other??

And yes I would get quite angry if I heard a reptilian ate someones baby, however I would be equally angry if that same persons baby was eaten by a shark or a lion. At what point is there a separation where it's either ok or not for one living being to consume another?

Personally I am a meat eater. Always have been and always will be until something major happens to convince me otherwise.

Yes, Lorien. A very proper question. And as stated above this can only be answered by oneself. In my own case it´s all about intent. Intent meaning that I´l try to respect all living things to the fullest without compromising my own beings health. So draw the line wherever you want, its fine with me. I do not feel sorry for the fish as it is now. But a big "thank you" for something giving his life to sustain yours could be a way to start giving gratitude towards all living things.

Personally this is a ongoing journey. Perhaps this diet of mine is just a transition to veganism (probably not, but I said 2 years ago that vegetarians are nuts and that I´ll never quit eating meat), or perhaps I´ll be back eating meat again and then I can say that I tried it, didn´t work, but I was curious enough to try.

Another point here to make is that meat tends too ground oneself too much. A sometimes too much overseen fact, when the debates as in this case tends to focus on the wellbeing of the body, not the etheric/astralbody or soul or whatever you want to call it. A lighter diet is a good way to reach the higher spheres. Most shamans and magicians i know states this as an easier way.

An interesting fact is that there is many dark magicians and people I know of that are in draconian orders taht are strict vegetarians. And I know that they rever this diet as a way to keep spiritual power up.
So for the argument that the rep´s would want a weak people from rejecting meat is in my eyes totally wrong. it is the very opposite.
They want people to be grounded (not only from meat ofcourse, you all know all the things they do to keep us sedated), so that they like Neo in matrix do not wake up and see what you did not too notice before.

You can ofcourse eat meat if you want to. As stated it´s all about perspective and indiviual paths. All i´m saying is that it works for me for the moment, thats all. I´m glad I tried it to be able to really notice the difference it makes. I´ve had tons of cool things happening lately. Or is it hallucinations

[burgundia]

Originally Posted by Lorien

I'm just curious, What makes the babies of lambs and cows any more important than the babies of crabs and fish, or ants for that matter?? Why can you eat one living creature but not the other??

.

You really don't see the difference? lambs, cows, pigs are mammals, like us. They have emotions and feelings. and that's a fact. i do not know however about ants or crabs. do they have feelings?

[burgundia]

I wonder how many of us would eat meat if we had to kill the animal ouselves? i have no objections when pulling a vegetable out of the soil.

[Karen]

Originally Posted by burgundia

I wonder how many of us would eat meat if we had to kill the animal ouselves? i have no objections when pulling a vegetable out of the soil.

Until the last few decades - that is what people had to do to eat - kill it themselves. Out here in the boondocks of Oregon, that is what many have always done - hunt and graze cattle/sheep on land unsuitable to farming.

I just found out that one of my ancestors that I thought was German, was actually Polish - from Zeliszewo. http://www.geonames.org/3080301/zeliszewo.html

So I went to Youtube and I watched Polish dancing - what an incredible art form! I looked up clothing and customs and diets. Wow - what a lot of meat in the traditional diet! Veges and bread too!
http://polandpoland.com/polish_recipes.html

[burgundia]

Originally Posted by Karen

Until the last few decades - that is what people had to do to eat - kill it themselves. Out here in the boondocks of Oregon, that is what many have always done - hunt and graze cattle/sheep on land unsuitable to farming.

I just found out that one of my ancestors that I thought was German, was actually Polish - from Zeliszewo. http://www.geonames.org/3080301/zeliszewo.html

So I went to Youtube and I watched Polish dancing - what an incredible art form! I looked up clothing and customs and diets. Wow - what a lot of meat in the traditional diet! Veges and bread too!
http://polandpoland.com/polish_recipes.html

Yes it is true that Poles eat a lot of meat. when I was growing up there wasn't a single day without meat.

[Neo]

lol....... *insert---->moderation* to last post

Funny while we are on 'cravings' and drinking, if I've been drinking a fair bit of alcohol I almost always get a craving for milk so I guzzle a heap of milk before I go to bed. It must help cos I always feel great the morning after.

[Metaphor]

Originally Posted by Neo

lol....... *insert---->moderation* to last post

Funny while we are on 'cravings' and drinking, if I've been drinking a fair bit of alcohol I almost always get a craving for milk so I guzzle a heap of milk before I go to bed. It must help cos I always feel great the morning after.

Hmmm...I´ll try that on thursday. I have a gig coming up= a few pints to many.

[Seashore]

Karen,

Thank you for your well-constructed opening post, and for sharing your research with us.

I have been experimenting with this for about the last two years. I began after being inspired by listening to the Jeff Rense program. Then, I noticed how nice is was to cook without handling raw, dead animals! Honestly, that is the reason I have continued when I'm cooking only for myself.

I thought from my research that I only needed to make sure I got all the amino acids, which I thought is possible with plants, and that I supplemented with vitamin B12, because my understanding is that there is no way to get B12 from plants, because it comes from bacteria, and we don't get it from the plants that we eat, whereas animals do...

I know that the Swerdlows were anti-vegetarian but I thought it was because they think "animals are here to serve man." Well, that's a matter of opinion.

But the idea of an Illuminati trick is Stewart's area of expertise...

Time for me to go back to the drawing board...

Thanks again.

[Connecting with Sauce]

"The Gerson Therapy", "The China Report" and "Minerals for the Genetic Code" are all worthwhile reading on this very topic.

I still eat meat but I've reduced the amount I eat massively based on this and it is SO SO important what the animal and plant were feed during the growing process as to whether it is healthy or not and obviously how it is cooked too. Grass fed free range lamb will be high in Omega 3. Corn fed warehouse reared cows will be high in omega 6...

I try to eat as much raw salad as possible and cover in cold pressed olive oil and freshly growd linseeds nuts and berry are very important too.

I try and eat as much organic as I can due to sprayed poisons and GMO food and the Omega 3/6 ratio.

Fresh filtered/re-energised Vortex water is so important too.

You are what you eat, drink and think!

[Karen]

Originally Posted by Connecting with Sauce

"The Gerson Therapy",

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...aminasaga.html

"In recent decades, much vitamin-A research has focussed on its role in preventing cancer, and its use in combination with nontoxic therapies in the treatment of cancer. Unfortunately, research on the anticarcinogenic properties of vitamin A has not been widely adopted. Perhaps the most tragic example is Dr. Max Gerson, who treated many cases of terminal cancer with excellent results using raw liver juice, a rich source of vitamin A. In 1946, he testified before a US congressional committee on the success of his treatment, but it was subsequently ignored.3 "

Raw liver juice is not vegan.

[judykott]

Karen, I really have to hand it to you. When you start an article you keep it going with great and valuable information. Thank you

also it is good no one is going for blood, over a topic which I have experienced on other sites getting very intense

[Karen]

Thank you Judy - I wonder if this could turn out to be the only vegan/omnivore discussion that doesn't go violent?

I was just looking at the information on The China Study again. Here is an article that pretty well lays out the flaws in T. Colin Campbell's book. He does have some good information, but he only tells half the truth ...

Thumbs Down Book Review - by Chris Masterjohn
The China Study: Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, and Long-Term Health

http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html
Conclusion paragraph
"The China Study contains many excellent points in its criticism of the health care system, the overemphasis on reductionism in nutritional research, the influence of industry on research, and the necessity of obtaining nutrients from foods. But its bias against animal products and in favor of veganism permeates every chapter and every page. Less than a page of comments are spent in total discussing the harms of refined carbohydrate products. Campbell exercises caution when generalizing from casein to plant proteins, but freely generalizes from casein to animal protein. He entirely ignores the role of wheat gluten, a plant product, in autoimmune diseases, so he can emphasize the role of milk protein, an animal product. The book, while not entirely without value, is not about the China Study, nor is it a comprehensive look at the current state of health research. It would be more aptly titled, A Comprehensive Case for the Vegan Diet, and the reader should be cautioned that the evidence is selected, presented, and interpreted with the goal of making that case in mind."

[Karen]

A Thumbs Up Review

http://www.westonaprice.org/bookrevi...er-menace.html

The whole article is a good read and here are a few snippets from:

Fiber Menace By Konstantin Monastyrsky
Ageless Press - Reviewed by Kathryne Pirtle

"Fiber Menace describes major health problems that can develop from eating what's considered a modern healthy diet high in fiber from grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes and even fiber supplements. The author details how high-fiber diets produce large stools which stretch the intestinal tract beyond its normal range--eventually resulting in intestinal damage--and a drastic upset of the natural bacterial flora of the gut. The end results manifest as hernias, hemorrhoidal disease, constipation, malnourishment, irritable bowel syndrome and Crohn's disease. He also provides numerous medical references to show that high-fiber diets do not confer the benefits claimed for them."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Traditional peoples did not drink large quantities of water. Instead, they stayed hydrated with milk, fermented beverages and bone broth soups, which contribute abundant nutrient qualities and do not upset the body's homeostasis. Plus, traditional peoples consumed plenty of fat, which renders much more water during metabolism than proteins or carbohydrates.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"... but in this book he fails to emphasize the healing effects of bone broths, fermented foods, medium-chain fatty acids and liberal amounts of the fat-soluble activators A and D. (His book in Russian, Functional Nutrition, does emphasize these foods, and Monastyrsky tells us that he will be translating these sections into English and posting them at his website http://fibermenace.com.) "

[Karen]

A section from http://www.mercola.com/article/carbo...low_grains.htm

Low Grain and Carbohydrate Diets Treat Hypoglycemia, Heart Disease, Diabetes Cancer and Nearly ALL Chronic Illness by Joseph Brasco, MD

" ... More recent evaluations of early man's nutritional patterns by Dr. Loren Cordain, estimate that as much as 65 percent of his calories were derived from animal products. Granted, early man was not eating corn fed Angus beef from Jewel, but he was eating the meat, the organs and the bones of his prey. Essentially, a high protein/fat diet. It was a mere 10,000 years ago (or less) that man began exploiting an agricultural niche.

This transition was made due to decreasing population of large game prey and an increasing population of humans. While undeniable good has transcended this dietary shift, i.e., growth of the human population, establishment of permanent settlements, the inception of civilization itself - man's health may have suffered in the transition.

Generally, in most parts of the world, whenever cereal-based diets were first adopted as a staple food replacing the primarily animal-based diets of hunter-gatherers, there was a characteristic reduction in stature, a reduction in life span, an increase in infant mortality, an increased incidence of infectious disease, an increase in diseases of nutritional deficiencies (i.e., iron deficiency, pellagra), and an increase in the number of dental caries and enamel defects.

In a review of 51 references examining human populations from around the earth and from differing chronologies, as they transitioned from hunter-gathers to farmers, one investigator concluded that there was an overall decline in both the quality and quantity of life.

There is now substantial empirical and clinical evidence to indicate that many of these deleterious changes are directly related to the predominately cereal-based diets of these early farmers. Since 99.99% of our genes were formed before the development of agriculture, from a biological perspective, we are still hunter-gathers.

Thus, our diet should reflect the sensibilities of this nutritional niche: lean meats; fish; seafood; low glycemic vegetables and fruit, (modern agriculture has significantly increased the sugar and starch content of vegetables and fruits over their Paleolithic counterparts), nuts and seeds - the evolutionary diet.

Glycemic Index

The term glycemic index, (GI) (a qualitative indicator of carbohydrate's ability to raise blood glucose levels), has seen a lot of mileage among the many non-ketogenic low carbohydrate diets. Most of these diets attribute the rise in obesity to the over consumption of high glycemic carbohydrates, and the subsequent over production of insulin." [end quote]

And much more at http://www.mercola.com/article/carbo...low_grains.htm

[Lorien]

Originally Posted by burgundia

You really don't see the difference? lambs, cows, pigs are mammals, like us. They have emotions and feelings. and that's a fact. i do not know however about ants or crabs. do they have feelings?

How do we know that only mammals have emotion and feelings?? We don't. Not a single person on the face of this planet can say they know that for a fact. And to be honest, I know some humans that don't have emotion or feelings as well, that doesn't mean I'm allowed to eat them does it?

[Connecting with Sauce]

Plants have been shown to have feelings too and scream if another plant nearby is burnt... Discussed as part of the book "The Field" by Lynne McTaggart with reference to the experiments.

The only option is to live from light if feeling are not to be hurt.

Thanking the food supply chain is an option, ie blessing the food to increase it's vibration before eating it. For example thank the apple tree before you pick the apple...

[burgundia]

Originally Posted by Lorien

How do we know that only mammals have emotion and feelings?? We don't. Not a single person on the face of this planet can say they know that for a fact.:

read once again what i wrote....

[Humble Janitor]

It's kind of odd for me but I will eat lots of raw spinach (washed of course) but I won't touch cooked spinach. It's the opposite for tomatoes and carrots.

I just don't buy into the idea that a vegan diet is healthier and I think it's cliched for people to claim so.

[Karen]

Excerpts from:
What Can the Diet of Gorillas Tell Us About a Healthy Diet for Humans?
http://westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html
By H. Leon Abrams, Jr.
Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology E.G.C.,
University System of Georgia

Summary: Very little

Insects also provide the same critical class of nutrients as the animal kingdom.
"... all of the great ape groups take in some animal protein ... by consuming insects, insect eggs and the larvae that nest on the plants and fruits they eat."

"... chimpanzees kill and eat monkeys and make a tool to extract termites from their hills (homes), and that they went to considerable effort to obtain these foods ... meat is the only food they share with other chimpanzees."

"... tried to breed the near extinct fruitivorian South American golden marmoset in captivity with no result, but when a little animal protein was added to their diet, they began to breed, which proves that they require a small amount of animal protein to be healthy and reproduce"

"It was the quest for meat that led Homo sapiens to [develop stone tools and to] colonize the world. They followed the herds of animals. When overpopulation caused the animal food supply to dwindle, many moved on, from tropical Africa to North Africa, Asia, Europe, the Americas and Australia. They walked and adapted to the cold climates and were able to do so because meat is compact energy, and one kill of a mammoth or other big game could feed many people and lasted for a long period of time; whereas gathering plants and fruits to eat was seasonal. Until the early part of the 20th century there were peoples who lived almost entirely on animal food. For example, the Eskimos of North America and Lapps of Scandinavia lived almost entirely on animal protein and were very healthy."

"However, when we refer to meat, remember that meat entails fats which are necessary for sound health. The protein and minerals in the meat cannot be utilized without the nutrients in the fat."

"Humans only turned to plant foods as major food sources when, due to the ever-increasing human population, herds of animals became scarce. They learned to domesticate some animals and invented agriculture."

"... grains cannot be eaten raw... when humans began eating a diet high in grains, the incidence of tooth decay increased considerably. Tooth decay increased dramatically when refined grains (wheat and rice) became staple diets ..."

"For normal growth and sound health throughout life, the human species requires eight amino acids which their bodies cannot manufacture, vitamin B12 and some essential minerals. The only viable source of these amino acids and of vitamin B12 is animal protein such as red meat, fish, shell fish, eggs, milk, insects and worms."

"...kwashiorkor is a deficiency disease which impedes the normal development of vital brain cells and stunts growth. People may be getting all they need to eat to satisfy their hunger from grains and other plant foods. They may even become plump on a diet of grains, but their normal growth and development is stunted."

"Unlike humans, the digestive tract of gorillas is equipped to manufacture the essential amino acids and other vital nutrients. The human digestive system is not so equipped and we must rely on animal proteins."

"the prohibition of pigs (pork) by the Jewish religion and cows by the Hindu religion came about due to the ever-increasing pressure of population growth. Pigs eat grain. It takes lots of land to grow grain for wheat which could feed more humans than it could feed pigs that require the grain to become meat on the human dinner-table."

"Likewise, in India where beef was widely eaten at an earlier time in history, the Hindu religion prohibited it because the cow was more valuable for its milk and dung [fuel for cooking fires] than as edible beef."

"In economically diverse societies where animal protein is scarce among the poorer classes and more abundant in the increasingly affluent sectors of society, it is interesting to note the differences in body height that seems to reflect the way people are forced to eat. The less affluent sectors subsist primarily on grains and a few vegetables and lack the height that is found among the more affluent ruling classes" [that can afford meat.]

[Karen]

Excerpt from Ancient Dietary Wisdom for Tomorrow's Children By Sally Fallon

"The diets of the healthy "primitives" Price studied were all very different: In the Swiss village where Price began his investigations, the inhabitants lived on rich dairy products--unpasteurized milk, butter, cream and cheese--dense rye bread, meat occasionally, bone broth soups and the few vegetables they could cultivate during the short summer months. The children never brushed their teeth--in fact their teeth were covered in green slime--but Price found that only about one percent of the teeth had any decay at all. The children went barefoot in frigid streams during weather that forced Dr. Price and his wife to wear heavy wool coats; nevertheless childhood illnesses were virtually nonexistent and there had never been a single case of TB in the village. Hearty Gallic fishermen living off the coast of Scotland consumed no dairy products. Fish formed the mainstay of the diet, along with oats made into porridge and oatcakes. Fishheads stuffed with oats and chopped fish liver was a traditional dish, and one considered very important for children. The Eskimo diet, composed largely of fish, fish roe and marine animals, including seal oil and blubber, allowed Eskimo mothers to produce one sturdy baby after another without suffering any health problems or tooth decay. Well-muscled hunter-gatherers in Canada, the Everglades, the Amazon, Australia and Africa consumed game animals, particularly the parts that civilized folk tend to avoid--organ meats, glands, blood, marrow and particularly the adrenal glands--and a variety of grains, tubers, vegetables and fruits that were available. African cattle-keeping tribes like the Masai consumed no plant foods at all--just meat, blood and milk. Southsea islanders and the Maori of New Zealand ate seafood of every sort--fish, shark, octopus, shellfish, sea worms--along with pork meat and fat, and a variety of plant foods including coconut, manioc and fruit. Whenever these isolated peoples could obtain sea foods they did so--even Indian tribes living high in the Andes. These groups put a high value on fish roe which was available in dried form in the most remote Andean villages. Insects were another common food, in all regions except the Arctic. The foods that allow people of every race and every climate to be healthy are whole natural foods--meat with its fat, organ meats, whole milk products, fish, insects, whole grains, tubers, vegetables and fruit--not newfangled concoctions made with white sugar, refined flour and rancid and chemically altered vegetable oils."

To read the rest of this great article with pictures taken by Dr. Price
http://westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html
and click article 3 in the sidebar.

[Karen]

"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration is the kind of book that changes the way people view the world. No one can look at the handsome photographs of so-called primitive people--faces that are broad, well-formed and noble--without realizing that there is something very wrong with the development of modern children. In every isolated region he visited, Price found tribes or villages where virtually every individual exhibited genuine physical perfection. In such groups, tooth decay was rare and dental crowding and occlusions--the kind of problems that keep American orthodontists in yachts and vacation homes--non existent. Price took photograph after photograph of beautiful smiles, and noted that the natives were invariably cheerful and optimistic. Such people were characterized by "splendid physical development" and an almost complete absence of disease, even those living in physical environments that were extremely harsh."

Not a single group that Price studied was vegan.
My favorite chapter is 19. Physical, Mental and Moral Deterioration
Read, or just browse through the tell-all pictures for free here:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../pricetoc.html

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects BY Weston A. Price, MS., D.D.S., F.A.G.D.

List of Illustrations
Preface
Foreword by Earnest A. Hooton
Introduction

1. Why Seek Wisdom from Primitive Races
2. The Progressive Decline of Modern Civilization
3. Isolated and Modernized Swiss
4. Isolated and Modernized Gaelics
5. Isolated and Modernized Eskimos
6. Primitive and Modernized North American Indians
7. Isolated and Modernized Melanesians
8. Isolated and Modernized Polynesians
9. Isolated and Modernized African Tribes
10. Isolated and Modernized Australian Aborigines
11. Isolated and Modernized Torres Strait Islanders
12. Isolated and Modernized New Zealand Maori
13. Ancient Civilizations of Peru
14. Isolated and Modernized Peruvian Indians
15. Characteristics of Primitive and Modernized Dietaries
16. Primitive Control of Dental Caries
17. One Origin of Physical Deformities
18. Prenatal Nutritional Deformities and Disease Types
19. Physical, Mental and Moral Deterioration
20. Soil Depletion and Plant and Animal Deterioration
21. Practical Applications of Primitive Wisdom

[Sarahmay]

Jumping into the fray...

I would love to be vegan, but am the type who becomes very weak and sick without meat. So I purchase the highest quality, humanely raised grass fed beef and free range chicken I can find. And keep the portions as small as I can.

I am a fan of Abraham, who states that the beasts are here willingly to provide us food. We do still live in the third dimension, mostly, and our dense bodies have certain needs.

But I dream of a day when a tasty liquid or a beautiful piece of fruit will sustain me.

[Ross H]

For me, everything is ENERGY, whether its food (all) sources or the air we breath, the water we drink, the light we see, the thoughts we have and our very essence, ect,

The key is to acknowledge this energy and be grateful for it and to use it to serve you best. There is no right or wrong! Its all ENERGY in one form or another...

peace