The ego what is it? How to transcend?

[RedeZra]

no point to play

hide and seek

if nobody is looking

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by RedeZra

no point to play

hide and seek

if nobody is looking

That sounds almost like a quote from "Divine Romance" by Yogananda.
Where are you Kriya?

By the way this thread has attracted over 10,000 hits and the ego is still here

My humor will get me into trouble.
I once said " Well I have a good sense of humor Uffe", He looked at me sadly from lofty hight and said "oh no Chris, but your parents certainly had"

It is amazing how some people can make a massive impact on your life he did and does though we have been in touch for a while.
I know you visit this thread from time to time Uffe so thanks for being a fine friend and teacher for me.
Chris

[14 Chakras]

I highly recommend, really from the bottom of my Heart, these ego discourses here:

http://www.askrealjesus.com/H_Reject...hristMain.html

They are a Divine gift for those who choose to BE ~

Follow the Way

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by 14 Chakras

I highly recommend, really from the bottom of my Heart, these ego discourses here:

http://www.askrealjesus.com/H_Reject...hristMain.html

Certainly, an interesting website.

But, after a few minutes of searching, I did not see where it is ever specified that Jesus taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'; and that the perversion of this one Doctrine was the chief manner in which his Teaching was perverted.

And, without that specific acknowledgement, the rest of the comments fall flat, as I see it.

Much more egregious, however, is that this so-called "Jesus" has anything positive whatsoever to say about the Pharisee, Paul; that person who is chiefly responsible for turning upside down the Teaching of Jesus on the Doctrine of "resurrection"; which led very directly, several hundreds of years later, to the slaughter of millions of Jews during the Holocaust.

On the other hand, I consider the entire conflict to be a conflict between the preservation of the consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker' and the preservation of human civilization itself.

Michael Cecil (4Q529)

http://after-the-false-peace.blogspot.com/

http://jewishchristianlit.com/Resour...ts/4Q529!.html

[greybeard]

Hi if this is your first visit to this thread,

Can I suggest that you start page one as there are a lot of interesting contributions from day one.

Regards
Chris

[mudra]

Here we go Chris for another round

Love Always
mudra

[mudra]

Love Always
mudra

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by mudra

Here we go Chris for another round

Love Always
mudra

Do I need my boxing gloves? Smiling broadly.

Thanks for the M video.
Friend went to see him in London exellent and so simple.
I have a video of him must look it out.
Thanks again for everything you do.
My world is a much better place for you being in it.
Chris

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Thanks for the M video.

Agreed.

A very good video, presenting a very clear explanation of consciousness and reality.

Except for one thing:

There is no such thing as the 'mind', for the same reason that there is no such thing as a 'thinker'.

There is only thought.

Both the 'mind' and the 'thinker' are thoughts.

Both the 'mind' and the 'thinker' are a violation of Occam's Razor.

Thus, one should not identify himself or herself any more with the word 'mind' than with the word 'thinker'.

The 'mind' is merely another thought that one can observe as not being a part of oneself.

It is the "observing consciousness" which is capable of observing thought rather than identifying with thought.

To the scientists of consciousness, however, there is only the consciousness of the 'thinker' or the 'mind'.

In other words, the function of the 'thinker' to the science of consciousness is the same as what the function of the term "ether" once was to classical physics.

There is no more evidence in support of the existence of the 'mind' than there ever was for the existence of the "ether".

Just this one fundamental change in the perspective of the science of consciousness would result in a quite dramatic improvement in the over-all understanding of consciousness.

But my writings to this effect are regularly censored and suppressed by the JCS (Journal of Consciousness Studies) Online 'discussion' group which is exclusively interested in only the 'thinker' dimension of human consciousness.

Michael Cecil (4Q529)

http://after-the-false-peace.blogspot.com/

http://jewishchristianlit.com/Resour...ts/4Q529!.html

[Gnosis5]

Well, well, well, was I surprised at finding more childish egoistic responses today .

But instead of beating myself up, I'm simply cutting out that sticky "fly paper" with the help of my clearing practitioner. It is almost becoming as simple and routine as putting a load of dirty linen in the washing machine (sigh of relief).

The trail led back to some small incident with my Mom when I was a child :-) (HI, MOM! I WUV YOU )

CHEERS!
Gnosis

[carriblu]

Originally Posted by 4Q529

Agreed.

A very good video, presenting a very clear explanation of consciousness and reality.

Except for one thing:

There is no such thing as the 'mind', for the same reason that there is no such thing as a 'thinker'.

There is only thought.

Both the 'mind' and the 'thinker' are thoughts.

Both the 'mind' and the 'thinker' are a violation of Occam's Razor.

this is interesting because deep in meditation, maybe you've experienced something like this, you realize your thoughts are separate from you, like they're happening off to the side of you and you can see them flow in and out around you. and then you realize you can turn them off if you want. so i see what you're saying with this.

my question is, where do the thoughts come from? have they always existed?

[Gnosis5]

Originally Posted by carriblu

this is interesting because deep in meditation, maybe you've experienced something like this, you realize your thoughts are separate from you, like they're happening off to the side of you and you can see them flow in and out around you. and then you realize you can turn them off if you want. so i see what you're saying with this.

my question is, where do the thoughts come from? have they always existed?

Oh, I feel I am so close to realizing that awareness. Perhaps that is why AI no longer can get it's hooks into me, except for some trifling stuff. Yes, first me and my Prime Thought, then other thoughts, then manifesting, then other forms of "me", then universes, then topographical consciousness and mind to navigate these universes, then playing "head" games until now when our mind is almost considered a liability on all sides and our thoughts are no longer our own.

What is my Prime Thought(s)? Separation from Static is still a mystery for me.

[RedeZra]

Originally Posted by carriblu

my question is, where do the thoughts come from? have they always existed?

from where the wind blows

[4Q529]

Originally Posted by carriblu

my question is, where do the thoughts come from? have they always existed?

You have to be quite careful here not to be distracted from the fundamental issue, which is maintaining a consciousness independent of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

The questions "Where do thoughts come from?" and "Have they always existed?" are questions of a 'thinker' that is trying to seduce you back into the realm of thought. So, there is no real benefit in pursuing such questions.

What is much more important is that thought itself is time, as has been observed by Krishnamurti.

And what is the purpose or function of time?

To preserve the spatiality of the consciousness of the "self" which originates in the 'movement' of self-reflection.

In other words, the "serpent" of Genesis and the "dragon" of the Revelation of John symbolize the duality created by the 'movement' of self-reflection; the "beast of the sea" is the spatiality of the "self"; and the "beast of the earth" is the efforts of thought and the 'thinker' to maintain the temporal continuity of the spatiality of the "self".

And all of this is the very origin and manifestation of conflict and violence.

Michael Cecil (4Q529)

http://after-the-false-peace.blogspot.com/

http://jewishchristianlit.com/Resour...ts/4Q529!.html

[kriya]

Originally Posted by 4Q529

You have to be quite careful here not to be distracted from the fundamental issue, which is maintaining a consciousness independent of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

The questions "Where do thoughts come from?" and "Have they always existed?" are questions of a 'thinker' that is trying to seduce you back into the realm of thought. So, there is no real benefit in pursuing such questions.

What is much more important is that thought itself is time, as has been observed by Krishnamurti.

And what is the purpose or function of time?

To preserve the spatiality of the consciousness of the "self" which originates in the 'movement' of self-reflection.

In other words, the "serpent" of Genesis and the "dragon" of the Revelation of John symbolize the duality created by the 'movement' of self-reflection; the "beast of the sea" is the spatiality of the "self"; and the "beast of the earth" is the efforts of thought and the 'thinker' to maintain the temporal continuity of the spatiality of the "self".

And all of this is the very origin and manifestation of conflict and violence.

Michael Cecil (4Q529)

http://after-the-false-peace.blogspot.com/

http://jewishchristianlit.com/Resour...ts/4Q529!.html

That is why the philosophical assertion " I think therefore I am" is incorrect.

Love,

Kriya

[greybeard]

That is why the philosophical assertion " I think therefore I am" is incorrect.

Love,

Kriya

Hi Kriya
good to see you.
Both my favorite teachers say it is back to front. "I am therfore I think" then promptly disswade you from the notion that you are the thinker.
Anything that comes and goes is not what you are.
Anything experienced therefore is not you.
If thought were you, you could easily stop them.
Your body is not you, try stopping breathing and see what happens.
Interestingly when you have been siting with several people silently for few moments note that the breath synchronizes, all breath in and out at the same moment.
Namaste
Chris

[carriblu]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Both my favorite teachers say it is back to front. "I am therfore I think" then promptly disswade you from the notion that you are the thinker.
Anything that comes and goes is not what you are.
Anything experienced therefore is not you.
If thought were you, you could easily stop them.
Your body is not you, try stopping breathing and see what happens.

hey grey i have some questions on this, what of us doesn't come and go (i assume you mean change)? is anything constant about us? also what would you say gets incarnated from life to life?

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by carriblu

hey grey i have some questions on this, what of us doesn't come and go (i assume you mean change)? is anything constant about us? also what would you say gets incarnated from life to life?

Hi Cariblu.
Please call me Chris. (Grey is a bit alien to me )
As I understand it Consciousness is becoming aware of itself and returning home.
What looks through your eyes is the same awareness that existed before birth and will after the body falls away.
Regardless of your age you feel the same, not talking about emotions.
I am surprised when I look in the mirror, I look the age of my body but I certainly dont feel any particular age. I am timeless and immortal.
Its the same life going through a series of experiences in a different body.
Its like going to the pictures, a different film every visit, but its the same observer.
You could sy that you are "The observer witness" labels are just that. You are what you are.
Hope this is helpfull.
Chris

[mudra]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Hi Cariblu.
Please call me Chris. (Grey is a bit alien to me )

Love Always
mudra

[greybeard]

Originally Posted by mudra

Love Always
mudra

Mudra
glad I made you laugh.
Where would we be without humor.
Chris
Namaste

[greybeard]

Disclaimer
Anything I put on the thread is my personal understanding so not necessarily true.

For me its down to personal goal, which for me is the removal of ignorance (enlightenment)
God forgive me for I know not what I do.

Because my spiritual intention is removal of ignorance/ego I only read books by those in the state free from ignorance.

My understanding is that they are a pure channel for the word of God, having no ego and in a desireless state they have no agenda.

Nasargadatta said in the book "I am that"
"Be clear until you are enlightened you have agenda even if it is only to get a good feeling from helping others"

To my mind, books that are channeled by non-enlightened are not 100% truth because the writing is affected by their subconscious beliefs and desires, their desire may be of the highest order but there is still an agenda behind it. There is good agenda not so good agenda but it is still agenda.

The teaching that flows through the sage is at a level that the audience is capable of understanding. it may seem to be unique to the teacher but that is only the delivery system, coming through a persona that we can relate to. The persona does not affect or dilute the essential message only the form it takes, .

Its a bit like electricity, it flows through the toaster, the fridge, the tv, different functions but the same power. The 100watt bulb shines a lot brighter than the 40watt bulb, why?
Because there is a lot more resistance in the 40watt bulb.
Bit like people.
The less you resist the more the power of God flows through you.

Chris

[greybeard]

There is a sugestion in AA.
"Let go let God"
Millions of lives have been changed from abject misery of addiction to being useful members of the community by following this advice.

When we let go of personal will ie ego even to a small degree then the miraculous begins to happen.

Think of what will happen when belief in the ego is let go of completely.

Could it be that God will create through us, unimpeded by our personal desire a heaven here on earth?

Hawkins says that the major the deterrent to spiritual progress is the belief in "causality"
A something causing a that (duality).
He further explains that Creation is on going with God manifesting through the potential inherent in human beings moment by moment. We are part of that creation. In that respect we are made in the image of God. God given abilities are being used by God when we dont resist His will. The moment authorship is claimed, duality is there and force is needed to continue creating the egos wants and desires. The Power of God is no longer in evidence, so the created product is not life supporting.

Chris

ps Michael C I am trying to be more precise in my words -- smiling -- c I do listen.
CH

[mudra]

Osho on Gurdjieff Work, Gurdjieffian system depends on you having a Centre

[A visitor says that he was at John Bennett’s school in England, where they did Gurdjieffian
exercises: Actually I left there quite confused – I suppose there’s no way out of that. I never had
much ability to do any of the exercises or things like that.]

Osho – It may not have suited you because Gurdjieff’s work is for a particular type, the will type – people who can work hard and very persistently, almost madly… because the whole thing depends on a very deep crystallisation of the ego. Once the ego is crystallised then further steps can be taken. But the whole Gurdjieffian system depends on you having a centre, a self.

Ordinarily you don’t have a centre. In fact Gurdjieff says you don’t have a soul – that is only a possibility; you may die without attaining it. What he calls the soul is nothing but a crystallised self, and crystallised so much so that it takes the position of being sovereign, enthroned, in the crowd of your many selves.

Ordinarily you have many egos, not one, and a conflict continuously going on. Sometimes one is in power, sometimes another is in power; a sort of democracy. A political head is not permanent, so much politics goes on within. So much politics and so much chaos goes on within that you never know where you are, who you are, what you are. Sometimes you have the feeling that you are this, but by the time you realise it that self is gone, is no more m power.

When you have a permanent self then Gurdjieff’s system really starts functioning. To attain that permanent self, one has to do tremendous work, in fact absurd work. Just out of too much work crystallisation happens; the work functions out of a chemical opportunity.

For example in many sufi schools from where Gurdjieff got the point, you have to remain alert for the whole night – for months. The only process to be done is not to allow yourself to fall asleep; it is very difficult. After a few days it becomes almost impossible, but if you can go on and on and on suddenly you realise one day that you are tired no more, that you are no longer feeling sleepy. You are as fresh as if you have been sleeping all the time – a deeper layer of energy has been broken.

We have three layers of energy. One is day to day, routine; you need it for eating, digesting, working, moving. It is finished in twenty-four hours and the next day you create it again. And there is a second layer of energy which is deeper; it becomes available only in emergencies.

Suddenly the house is on fire. You were tired and were falling to sleep, but now you feel that much energy is available. You are running and doing things and for hours you are in hard work. Not for a single moment do you remember that you are tired or that you would like to fall asleep. This is an emergency level available only in dangerous times. Gurdjieff used to create many situations for this purpose – just to bring this emergency level into functioning.

And then there is a third layer that comes only when you are touching the point of death; not only emergency but a death situation. He himself did the last of his experiments, which was to go through a very dangerous car accident. It was managed, it was not an accident; he did it with everything planned. Even doctors could not believe how a man could survive after such a crash.

It was impossible – but he survived. The whole body was broken, all the bones were broken, but he survived. The whole effort was to come to a point where death touches you; you were almost going to die – and then the third layer becomes available to you. If in that moment you can remain alert, then you have touched the very rock bottom of your being – call it God.

So the first layer is only of the ego, the second layer is of the soul, and the third layer is that of God. But the whole work of Gurdjieff is hard, work of the will, and I don’t see that you are the type. To you something more like Zen will be helpful. It moves from the very opposite pole: no effort, nothing to be done but relaxing and surrendering. It is not a question of work on your part. The only thing that you are expected to do is to accept non-doing and relax into it. That is totally different; not only different, but just the opposite polarity of the same thing.

And these are the two types – call them male and female, yin and yang, or whatsoever you like. But you are the feminine type, and this is the problem and has to be understood: that all feminine types are attracted to a male type. So if you were attracted towards Bennet or Gurdjieff or that type of work, it’s natural. The male type is attracted to the feminine paths of surrender. That’s where confusion arises – the opposite is always attractive.

So try Zen – something in which you have just to sit, just to walk, just to be, as if nothing is to be done. Gurdjieff says you have not soul, it has to be created. Zen says you have everything – just relax and enjoy it; it is there. Man is standing just in the middle of these two polarities. Move to any extreme and realisation is possible, because the jump is possible only from the extreme ends. You cannot jump from the middle of the road; you have to move to an extreme, and jump from there. So either move to the extreme of work, will – or move to the other extreme of surrender, no effort, passivity.

The whole of the East, particularly the Far East, has developed no-effort methods; and the Middle East, the Sufis particularly, have developed the path of will. So if you have been doing things just following the path of will, I will suggest to you that you move to the other extreme. Suddenly the key may fit….

Mm mm, we are doing here some buddhist meditations – Vipassana. It will be very good if you can do one ten day course and see. It is just sitting…. Because if you can relax and be passive – and it will be very easy for you – all confusion will disappear. Confusion arises only when you are doing something which is not in tune with your type.

Once something is in tune with your type, all confusion disappears. Confusion is simply indicative, symptomatic, that you are doing something that doesn’t suit you. You may go on doing it and it does not suit you, you go on doing it and it does not suit you, and the mind will say that you are not doing hard enough and that is why there is confusion – and more and more confusion will come.

Once something fits… it is just as when the shoe fits – suddenly you forget the shoe. Whenever a method fits, you simply forget about it and everything falls in line. Only the right key and the lock opens. Try to remember what I am saying. Your type is the feminine type. You are not an aggressive being; you are very non-violent. Not very out-going, not intrusive in any way; you would like to be within yourself. But this work, whatsoever you have been doing, can be helpful; at least it can show you that this is not your type. You be here and try Vipassana.

Source: from Osho Book “Above All Don’t Wobble”

I am finding this text interesting as regard our different inherent natures and what paths to transcend the ego and come to realize our divine essence would suit us best . I think it opens the scope of tolerance and understanding as to how everyone is working at finding his way home .
It's interesting to note that the process of life itself brings us both : things to go through at times and others to let go .

To me when either of these paths brings you back to your Heart and opens it you have arrived home.
In these interesting times we are living these paths are getting shorter and it is my vision and wish that the more connection we make from heart to heart then they won't even need to be travelled at all.
One could literally wake up to it's Heart ..divine presence ..core essence overnight .

Love Always
mudra

[mudra]

Originally Posted by 4Q529

Agreed.

A very

It is the "observing consciousness" which is capable of observing thought rather than identifying with thought.

Michael Cecil (4Q529)

http://after-the-false-peace.blogspot.com/

http://jewishchristianlit.com/Resour...ts/4Q529!.html

I believe I am following you there Michael Cecil .

Consciousness is the observer capable of projecting self created truth (postulates) to manifest an effect. By doing this it can hold a viewpoint and a point to view.
Consciousness can create and decreate as many viewpoints as it wishes freely in the now.That's how we operate when we are inspired : instant knowingness

I see thought itself as something more solid , a standing wave one identifies to and that creates the illusion of time.When the illusion of time sets in one goes through thought processes ( one thought opposing an another and creating dichotomy ) and this in itself creates the illusion of mind.

By letting go of the illusion of time .. of being anchored in a specific space one takes back his sovereignety as the observer outside of time : pure undisturbed freely flowing Consciousness.

Love Always
mudra

[greybeard]

Sharing.
Today I normally get a lift to the gym.
Here I was all dressed for it waiting, no sign of my friend Jim.
Some times goes bye, the phone rings, its Jim,
"I slept in" he says.
I now have choice.
I can identify with any low energy thoughts that arise, get frustrated, even get mad.

I say to Jim thats great you will benefit from a good sleep, ( his health is not good and sleep escapes him often)
We can play some tomorrow. Wed are both musicians and we record together.
End of conversation.
Thats a far cry from the way I would have reacted some time back.
Every low vibration, negative thought that I identify with lowers my frequency / attractor field and I will get more of the same.

Every high vibration positive though that I observe and see myself act apon raises not only my vibration, "my" vibration but also raises the collective field of consciouses which I am a part of. I therfore have a responsability to act with kindness and consideration to others, even if I dont agree with them
I can disagree without being disagreeable.
With love
Chris