Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayable.

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by eXchanger

that is great "average joe"
who is NOT really an "average" joe
i think he is a way "above average" joe

love/susan
the eXchanger

Thank you susan.

I think average joe suits me though.

[isotelesis]

Check this out:

http://www.the7thfire.com/debt_elimination/media.htm#01

[alternative-answer]

Excellent, we should have the right to challenge bad practise, it is about recognising our own power and worth in effecting change on an individual and global level.

[Average Joe]

Recognising your own power and worth by ripping off creditors, and that is effectively what you are doing, negates everything about what you want to become and who you are.

Like I said, personally I couldn't sleep at night if I took the opportunity to walk away from owing a company x amount of money, knowing full well that we had an agreement.

These alleged bad practices by banks are no excuse for doing this, IMO.

Lets think of it this way, a person wants to be a good person and spread love and light, yet on the other hand wants to rip off or steal money that they owe out. That is hypocritical.

What is it that people say? I can think of two things that usually hold fairly true....

1 "Treat others as you would wish them to treat you"

2 "What goes around comes around"

In other words, going down this route to free yourself of debt, may give you a temporary feeling of empowerment and satisfaction, but I just feel you are going to be laying yourself open to a whole lot of trouble just waiting to come back at you later down the line.

Love, light, peace to you all but beware if I owe you money I'll try and rip you off.

Joe.

[QueenOfLeon]

These criminals have been robbing us for years. Literally taking the food out of babies mouths and feeding it to the fat cats! The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, it was engineered that way, so if I can finda loop hole to stop filling there pockets, phuck yeah im gonna take it! Now, my debts were run up by the fact that I had no disposable income at all and had to live off my credit card, its not as if I was going out and buying gucci handbags!! Also I ahve never defaulted and am always consious of my bills, they always get paid and I have always felt that I should pay it back, HOWEVER, now I know how utterly corrupt it all is, and how we have been manipulated, I say they can swivel.

It should be our god given right to have shelter and food without having to ask for pay outs and die through stress in the process of providing for our families! Meanwhile sickingly rich people get things free!!

They want the banks to fail, they set up this system so that it will be brought down so I say help them. If they are that bloody concerened why dont they just right off everyones mortgage and freeze interest. Yeah they will lose alot, but not everything!!
But they want it to fail.

PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION.

[Mike_Jetson]

QueenofLeon youre pretty much there.

Im still tearing my hair out here.

isotelesis, that link is great and shows EXACTLY what i am talking about.

Joe, i know its a weird thing to get your head around but its not the banks money you have got. Nobody looses out when you dont pay. WE ARE KARMA correcting the evil they have made.

Seriously.

[Average Joe]

A bank lends you ten grand.

You steal the money by pointing out a loophole.

SOMEBODY has lost 10 grand.

End of story.

So we disagree on that one, you think its OK to theive money from financial institutions, I think it is immoral. Fair enough.

Onto the other point you made, why is it that we are in a credit crisis?

[Mike_Jetson]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

A bank lends you ten grand.

You steal the money by pointing out a loophole.

SOMEBODY has lost 10 grand.

End of story.

So we disagree on that one, you think its OK to theive money from financial institutions, I think it is immoral. Fair enough.

Onto the other point you made, why is it that we are in a credit crisis?

Nobody has lost 10 grand. Here:-

"First you must understand that in our money system there are no funds because there is technically, no money. There is only debt and debt instruments that are used in place of money. They used your name to create a trust with themselves named as trustees, and they have used that trust as collateral on the national debt. That collateralization is in an asset account for the trust after it was monetized on the world money market. The process #3 establishes YOUR right as the trustor and takes that trust back under your control. Under your control you can transfer trust assets to the trust debt account, thereby discharging the debt.

You next must understand that the debt is not yours personally. You have, since you began doing money transactions, functioned as a voluntary fiduciary representative for that trust account, paying its bills with your own phony money. When you set up your first checking account, you accepted this relationship with the trust the government had set up in your name. You have not had control of this trust because you never claimed it and your parents could not control it for you because they were wards of the State like you. "

Research Fractional Reserve Banking. Banks at one point could lend £9 for every £1 they took on deposit. The problem is, when that £9 is paid back into the bank, the banks decides to multiply it by £9 again. In one step all this money has appeared from £1

The only reason we hit crisis this time around was a lack of confidence among banks. If they has stuck to the fractional reserve banking ratio then it wouldnt matter so much when debtors had trouble paying. They would hold enough cash on deposit to cover it. Not if they have unlawfully bypassed the system and created way too much 'money' from fresh air.

This is not about a loophole. Its about the law being broken by the creators of debt

[Average Joe]

Well it looks convincing, is there evidence to back this up?

I still can't get my head around it though. If a bank can lend £9 against a £1 deposit, to me that doesn't mean they are creating money out of fresh air. It means they can lend the money against the repayments + interest that they will collect. Where does the money come from? Well they are collecting payment from other debtors anyway, that can provide the capital to lend to new debtors. Theres no two ways about it that they will profit, but that is what businesses are in operation for.

Besides whether "I get it or not", that is not my gripe Mike.

If I want money up front by loan, it does not make any difference to me whether that money is fresh air, real or what.

All I care about is that a) I now have the 10 grand for example, to buy a car with and b) that I can pay it back. It matters not if it is all one big illusion, all that matters is that I am now able to buy the object that I borrowed money for. That is the bottom line.

So, I borrowed the money, I now owe the money and that is that. And that is my gripe. You borrow knowing that you're supposed to pay back.....even if not paying would apparantly leave no "victim"......it doesn't matter! We call this integrity.

If a friend lent you money, you'd pay it back.

[Gnosis5]

Originally Posted by Mike_Jetson

Nobody has lost 10 grand. Here:-

"First you must understand that in our money system there are no funds because there is technically, no money. There is only debt and debt instruments that are used in place of money. They used your name to create a trust with themselves named as trustees, and they have used that trust as collateral on the national debt. That collateralization is in an asset account for the trust after it was monetized on the world money market. The process #3 establishes YOUR right as the trustor and takes that trust back under your control. Under your control you can transfer trust assets to the trust debt account, thereby discharging the debt.

You next must understand that the debt is not yours personally. You have, since you began doing money transactions, functioned as a voluntary fiduciary representative for that trust account, paying its bills with your own phony money. When you set up your first checking account, you accepted this relationship with the trust the government had set up in your name. You have not had control of this trust because you never claimed it and your parents could not control it for you because they were wards of the State like you. "

Research Fractional Reserve Banking. Banks at one point could lend £9 for every £1 they took on deposit. The problem is, when that £9 is paid back into the bank, the banks decides to multiply it by £9 again. In one step all this money has appeared from £1

The only reason we hit crisis this time around was a lack of confidence among banks. If they has stuck to the fractional reserve banking ratio then it wouldnt matter so much when debtors had trouble paying. They would hold enough cash on deposit to cover it. Not if they have unlawfully bypassed the system and created way too much 'money' from fresh air.

This is not about a loophole. Its about the law being broken by the creators of debt

Money only works if people have trust and confidence and that is disappearing. There goes the great god of materialism.

[alternative-answer]

Average Joe stop taking the moral high ground with people on here, if you wanna be stiffed by banks then you crack on, but for the rest of us who will not roll over and be shafted that's our choice to seize back our power and take on the very people who would be knocking on your door if I was late paying my mortgage, loan, credit card etc, etc and would be quite happy to take my property to cover themselves.

[Mike_Jetson]

This is the exact reason that the big players dont need any more money. They have long ago created real wealth and assets and now hold almost all of the power. It started many moons ago by hoarding the gold and then creating all the cash to buy everything they would ever need, including governments.

The evidence is everywhere. Even Woodrow Wilson spoke about it 3 years after he sold his country to the bankers:-

""I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country.
A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit.
Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation,
therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.
We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely
controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world.
No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by
the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

Your birth certificate is used to create a bond that is sold by government to foreign powers, against your future taxes.

[Esther]

For the 'ethical' posters using the Bible to their advantage:

About the Jubilee... During this year the land was to be fallow, and the Israelites were only permitted to gather the spontaneous produce of the fields (Leviticus 25:11,12). All landed property during that year reverted to its original owner (13-34; 27:16-24), and all who were slaves were set free (25:39-54), and all debts were remitted.

Why? Because through the years abuses became rampant and this was the way to stop it.

[Mike_Jetson]

Sounds very much like what could happen now.

Eliminate third world debt. Oh hold on but that wouldnt be ethical. We still need to squeeze their blood and tears for the money they owe us which we created from thin air.

Another point. Some solicitors will know this but many wont. When you buy a house with a mortgage the reason you have certain papers to sign without putting a date on them is because you technically own the house before the mortgage is created. You dont get the money to buy the house. You borrow the money against the value of a property you own. You must first own the property. It is simply transfered from one to another

[isotelesis]

I believe in paying back repayable debts, I don't believe in perpetuating a monetary system based on usury, it depends on who and what is paying for your loan. All I suggest is people understand how their loan has been financed, then taking appropriate action to protect their rights, preferably through legal recourse. If somebody loans you money they don't have, should you pay them back? It depends on who owns the debt instrument. If nobody does, then why let someone else claim ownership if they did not own it in the first place? If I lend you $100 I don't have because I have the monopoly to create money based on nothing, do I have the right to force you to pay me back, even though I cheated you for something I never had in the first place? It depends on the circumstance, but all too often, people are being swindled by predatory lenders. The absolute power to create new credit out of nothing corrupts absolutely. Unfortunately, the entire world is now based on this fraudulent system. People are either too interested from its profits or too dependent on its favors to oppose this system. Therefore, we should all put our heads back down and keep chewing that grass, don't bother escaping, we've got snipers all around waiting to act on our orders. Accept the necessary evil, it is good for you, don't start thinking for yourself, that is bad for the collective, we must teach you to behave like the rest...good...don't bite the hand that feeds you now.

[Mike_Jetson]

Great. some valuable comments coming. I will quote and reply to these one by one as we are getting somewhere now.

Originally Posted by isotelesis

I believe in paying back repayable debts,

All I suggest is people understand how their loan has been financed, then taking appropriate action to protect their rights, preferably through legal recourse.

Yes this is exactly what myself and other members do. We have studied the law hard and now know exactly how and where we have been swindled.

It depends on who owns the debt instrument. If nobody does, then why let someone else claim ownership if they did not own it in the first place? If I lend you $100 I don't have because I have the monopoly to create money based on nothing, do I have the right to force you to pay me back, even though I cheated you for something I never had in the first place?

Bingo! Guess what. The debt instrument is your signature but they have used it to create a promise to pay. Under the law, once the debt is repaid you are supposed to get your instrument returned to you so they should be able to supply you with the promissary note, BUT THEY CANT! Your example was good. If you had lent me $100 and I had paid back this $100 to you, you should keep the interest and I should get my $100 back as my name was used to create it. Its technically mine.

Originally Posted by QueenOfLeon

Then they started charging interest on the paper money....which would work as long as everybody didnt ask for their gold back at once. There is not enough assets to back up the fiat money people. .

Same as now. There is not enough money (the paper stuff) for people to even withdraw the money they own. The same problem can easily happen and this is a major reason the banks had big problems. all it took back then was for 10 % to ask for their gold. Now its less than 5%. A small amount of customers can take down any bank simply by moving their money elsewhere.

Originally Posted by 371

I got out of over $20,000 of reckless credit debt by paying $2500 few years ago.
I did it myself, you just gotta know what to say

Very true. One of the things we teach and share is a bookfull of techniques used by credit negotiation companies. The ones that charge you a fortune and sometimes cant get even 50% deleted.

Originally Posted by Baggywrinkle

Federalize the loan industry. But the fact remains, if you fail to repay the principle of your loan then you
are no better then the loan sharks you are railing against.

http://payaccel.com/index.php

Go back to 1912 before the federal reserve act was passed. Many problems solved right there. If the government creates the money the government keeps the profits which results in lower taxes and even more growth, resulting in more taxes, its a great circle that creates abundance.

The people running that site seem to be offering a councilling service, creating budgets, getting your cash to work for you etc rather than using the law in our favour

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Anyway people, the moral of the story is - don't take financial advice from Zorgon.

Really its a good plan. The problem is paying the interest. Its a good plan for folk who really are in the deep end with their credit and are trying to repair it. There are some good variations on the technique. It wouldnt work well here in the UK because cash withdrawals from a credit card are between 20-30 percent for a good cards, way more for bad. However I havnt looked into the details of the secureed cards which are held against your deposit. If they let you withdraw cash at a rate lower than 15% is a decent deal to get your credit back on good feet.

However, the techniques that we know about can get disputed debt changed/removed etc. And also the technique you suggested for getting the agencies to check individual accounts for accuracy is a good one. Slow banks mean a deleted record for you. Just make sure you try and keep the good ones on file.

For UK folk - totally free reports online with great info on each payment too - http://www.annualcreditreport.co.uk/

More info about us again check out:-

www.freedomandwealth.co.uk (enter email for info to your inbox)
& main site www.libertywealthclub.com (audio links recommended)

[Average Joe]

Sorry Mike, but I can only agree that Zorgon's plan is good for restoring credit and nothing else. It certainly does not benefit you financially.

The way he put it across, unless I misunderstood it, was as a kind of secret way of making yourself money, and obviously that is impossible.

As for the opening of credit card accounts and making monthly payments on time to repair your credit rating, I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

And why create a £5,000 debt for yourself from nothing and a £135 monthly payment just to have another £15,000 credit available on top just waiting to **** you over?

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of debt, even if my mantra is pay back what you owe.

[Mike_Jetson]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Sorry Mike, but I can only agree that Zorgon's plan is good for restoring credit and nothing else. It certainly does not benefit you financially.

The way he put it across, unless I misunderstood it, was as a kind of secret way of making yourself money, and obviously that is impossible.

As for the opening of credit card accounts and making monthly payments on time to repair your credit rating, I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

And why create a £5,000 debt for yourself from nothing and a £135 monthly payment just to have another £15,000 credit available on top just waiting to **** you over?

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of debt, even if my mantra is pay back what you owe.

Well its a good way of looking creditworthy. Its very important if you either want a mortgage or have a mortgage but have gone and messed up your credit somehow. Especially if you are coming to the end of a fixed deal or simply spot a better deal with our rates moving down.

This method does require discipline and isnt for anyone who lost discipline and got in a mess in the 1st place.

Yes I agree its not a way to make money. I will read it again as im sure ive read something similar.

Remember this method is for people who simply cant get credit. That could mean no landline phone, no mobile phone etc Many companies will credit check you even if they dont have to create credit for you. If you pay a bit of cash anyone can credit check you if they like. hell quite a lot of employers do it.

Technically its the best way of getting some good credit records with lots of lenders and it will cost you about $700

[MMe M]

Money is created from nothing. Zilch. Zero.


You are doomed to fail no matter your lifestyle when the lenders are in charge of the economy. What you could once afford with a little belt tightening is now beyond your income by large sums. Incomes have decreased and at best stagnated for twenty plus years in this country. You must eat, have transportation to work and live, shelter and clothing. If your income does not keep up with the cost of shelter, food, clothing and transportations costs you cannot maintain even a very frugal lifestyle without credit. The lenders know this. The money exchangers are in the house so you will be in debt till they are removed from power. It is that simple.

Many of you are pious and self rightous and say if you had only went without as I have you would not be in debt. If you werent so lazy you could work as I did to stay out of debt. If you didnt self indulge so often you wouldnt be in this mess. To those of you that go on and on in this vein, I say to you "Beware the words you spew today for you will live to see the others side in the most extreme example that can be visited upon you". This is quite simply the laws of fate and you asking for an abject lesson in humility to add insult to injury. The system is designed for many to fail and few to prosper. We are none of us indulgant in anything save survival currently. Many of us homeless or soon to be. How much more must we do without?

Originally Posted by MMe M

simple.Money is created from nothing. Zilch. Zero.




Many of you are pious and self rightous and say if you had only went without as I have you would not be in debt. If you werent so lazy you could work as I did to stay out of debt. If you didnt self indulge so often you wouldnt be in this mess. To those of you that go on and on in this vein, I say to you "Beware the words you spew today for you will live to see the others side in the most extreme example that can be visited upon you". This is quite simply the laws of fate and you asking for an abject lesson in humility to add insult to injury. The system is designed for many to fail and few to prosper. We are none of us indulgant in anything save survival currently. Many of us homeless or soon to be. How much more must we do without?

You say that like it's a bad thing. Righteousness is the wellspring that gives you the power to move
mountains. No man, no system, and no government can stand against you when you move with the
conviction of righteousness. The problem right now is, you aren't mad enough.

When you got nothin, you got nothin to lose. If you are prepared to bleed, if you are prepared to die,
then ready your sauce pans for battle and bring them down. I will meet you there. Together we shall
speak truth to power.

HOOAH HOOAH!




You have forgotten the symbolism and the power that resides here

You no longer know what it is let alone what it means or why it is important. You don't know why this symbol adorns the emblem of your military and the seal of the U.S. Senate.

When you are angry enough with the conviction of righteousness to once again don the bonnet rouge contact me
and we shall have a tea party.

[MMe M]

[QUOTE=Baggywrinkle;76268]Then prepare your sauce pans for battle and bring them down


You are not in any position to disagree being that you use money. You know where you can put your sauce pans. I dont even know where your comments are coming from or what your intention is with that picture but if that is supposed to be some sexist commentary focused at me regarding the truth about the money lenders and this society we live in, then you can just shove your visuals along with any other utensils up your haystack! You are out there to be certain. For one, taking an Amish persons picture is creating a graven image, a bigtime no no in their religion, for another you live in the city but go on and on about primitive ways and means.

You presume to know what I have lost or not. You have no idea, nor sense enough to know the difference.

[MMe M]

I am not French this go round, had a public school education and had to look up the red bonnet rouge. Fer chrizs sake. What does that have to do with pots and pans?

Its a wise child as kens it own father, fold and press.

Id host the tea party but I havent lost enough yet. Maybe next month. January for sure.

.

[MMe M]

[QUOTE=Baggywrinkle;76286]

Originally Posted by MMe M

I love you, and I honor and respect you enough to challenge you to remember your heritage.

We are Quakers, with strong Anabaptist leanings. As a seeker I do not yet have the conviction to take
the Dordrecht confession. That makes me a fighting quaker. Smedley Butler is a hero of mine.

Now go and do your homework, to see what those images really mean.

With loving intent

-d-

okey dokey. Ill go look.

You just cant judge those that appear as though they arent careful and are seemingly wanting to shirk their responsibilities. Those that do will pay with their own lessons to be learned. Goodness knows I must have had more money than my share in a previous incarnation to be on this end of the stick this go round. Some are less fortunant than others and its duced hard to budget what isnt in existance. Its just a trap set by others.

There but for the grace of the Gods go I. Thats the ideal I try to live by.

Love to you too, Baggs

[calico]

Originally Posted by alternative-answer

Average Joe stop taking the moral high ground with people on here, if you wanna be stiffed by banks then you crack on, but for the rest of us who will not roll over and be shafted that's our choice to seize back our power and take on the very people who would be knocking on your door if I was late paying my mortgage, loan, credit card etc, etc and would be quite happy to take my property to cover themselves.

I agree with Average Joe.

It is energy. If you voluntarily took part in a system and now want to get out, get out honorably. Pay what you committed to pay to those who you made commitments to. If you want to stop dancing the same old dance, then let your partner down gracefully, for your own sake, not for your partner's sake. Very little in life is 'real'. To get mad at 'the man' and to stop honoring a commitment that you made, albeit in an 'unreal' currency, will not energetically charge you in the least. In fact, it will bring you down a few notches. You don't need to seize back your power .. no-one has it, you still have it. Go and use it wisely.