Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

Originally Posted by Knightbk

What people fail to realize at the end of the day is that Rich and Poor alike, we are all connected and nobody in the West wants things to collapse. Even the East doesn't want us to collapse, though they do want more power and influence.

The world WILL find a way to "save" our system. There are very smart people out there working on this and they will do it. In 10 or 15 years from now you will look back and say "ya it got bad but we survived".

This is what is coming:
Lower living standards. It wont be third world but it wont be like it has been. People will not have 14 Plasma TV's in the home, 3 Cell Phones for the kids, Eat out 14 times a week, drive Hummers to go to work, have 6000 sq ft homes with granite counter tops, etc, etc.

Knightbk,

Welcome to the thread. On the one hand, I have to agree with the latter part of your post. The way we live our lives today is unsustainable. A dramatic sea change is needed to prevent environmental collapse, and promote internal and international peace.

But in a free society, the fine line between need and want can be razor thin. Capitalism and the acquistion of wealth have deep roots in the American and Western psyches (enter Max Weber's "The Spirit of Capitalism"), so much so that for most people alive today a permanent devolution from what has become normal will always be viewed as just that - something less than normal. Survival won't be good enough. Economic decline and poverty in this country have historically led to riots and rebellion. While a lack of Hummers and cell phones per household may indeed be what the world needs, a fundamental change in the psychology of America and the Western world will have to take place before the population accepts it as such. What did the people who lived through the Great Depression do the moment they could? Consume, consume, consume; hoard, hoard, hoard. In a sense, the Great Depression was not traumatic enough to change the "spirit of Capitalism," and neither will the crash of 2008.

As for those "smart" ones at the top, diligently working to preserve the sytem as is, their success will lead to 6000 square foot homes, and a Hummer and cell phone for every one of their family members. Capitalism is the ultimate pyramid scheme, is it not? (Double entendre intended.) If the bottom 90% have to experience a "decline in living standards," why not the top 10% too? Why should we consent to allowing that top 10% live off of the blood and sweat of our children's labor, and our children's children's labor? Capitalism has always been an inequitable system of production and exchange, and as discussed earlier in this thread, a system that cannot survive without expansion and exploitation of environmental and human resources. Those at the top will live lifestyles that are environmentally damaging and exploitative of the masses as long as we continue to consent.

I will have to agree with Zynox - a world where the present system survives is not a future I want my grandchildren to inherit. That is not to say I want them to inherit a world without laws or the Republican (as in the political philosophy, not the political party) spirit. But, preserving the current economic system is to preserve inequity and exploitation, and to invite environmental and cultural collapse. Are not the mechanisms of Capitalism dangerous to Democracy? If our politicians could be made subject to the rule of the people (as they were in the American Revolution, and arguably, still are), why not corporate America? I think the time has come for us to decide: are we men and women, or are we cogs? Are we markets, or are we communities? My fear is that the timeframe in which we make that descision for ourselves is incredibly short - and our indecision will allow others to make it for us.

I have just finished listening to the Jeff Rense interview with B. Fulford, and that was following the second Bob Dean interview. I have a few thoughts and questions for the group.

Both Dean and Fulford - as well as George Green and half the other whistleblowers interviewed through Camelot, Rense, Coast to Coast, etc. - invoked the horrors of the Federal Reserve. This institution seems to be at the heart of every conspiracy theory known under the sun in this century, and the last. There have been entire threads here on Avalon dedicated to the fight against this institution. That the Fed is bad is the consensus, I both get it, and agree with it.

But something Bob Dean said struck me: "one world government" is a necessary step on our evolutionary path - to move beyond what we are now as a species. Capitalism has the mechanisms in place to facilitate the growth of a one world government quickly, and allows for the practice of democracy. No matter what the theory - from Nibiru to more conventional "global climate change" - it appears that we need to unite as a species if we want to survive the coming years, and with great haste. Can we use the structures that exist, "rinse" them (thanks Zynox), and use them in a more equitable and noble purpose?

Capitalism has become a boogeyman, demonized even by myself, but I wonder now if it cannot be salvaged. Roses are not without their thorns, right? Capitalism has been steered since the turn of the 20th century toward uber-exploitation, but it has been the Federal Reserve in the driver's seat. They are the clearinghouse of capital upon which the markets depend. Can we simply purge the system of the "Fed," and preserve our market economy? Or is Capitalism too badly damaged, or too inherently corrupt, to rehabilitate?

And one more question. There is another side to developing a more, shall we call it, "enlightened capitalism." Fulford said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "people who go to work are selling poison soda to people. It's meaningless. People should be deciding to do something worthwhile, like making Mars green . . . ." Should we, the people, have a larger role as capital brokers for industrial development? Do we have a duty to do so, for the creation and maintenance of MEANINGFUL industries and projects? Since the taxpayers now own banks, and will probably be acquiring a few mortages along the way, and will soon be cutting corporate welfare checks to failing industry, perhaps this is the moment we take it all back? Maybe it is our duty to take it all back? Maybe we need an amendment to the constitution titled something like "The Industrial Oversight Amendment"? I don't want to come off as the ghost of Marx or anything, but perhaps we are confronting a future where the people need more, democratic control over the means of production; or in the new-fangled lingo of the Neo-Marxists, the people should restructure the relationships of production. And I ask this, is it not our moral duty to do so? If we don't, what kind of world are we leaving for our great great great grandchildren?

What you think? Grab the hose, or let the fuxer burn?

[Knightbk]

Originally Posted by historycircus

I will have to agree with Zynox - a world where the present system survives is not a future I want my grandchildren to inherit. That is not to say I want them to inherit a world without laws or the Republican (as in the political philosophy, not the political party) spirit. But, preserving the current economic system is to preserve inequity and exploitation, and to invite environmental and cultural collapse. Are not the mechanisms of Capitalism dangerous to Democracy? If our politicians could be made subject to the rule of the people (as they were in the American Revolution, and arguably, still are), why not corporate America? I think the time has come for us to decide: are we men and women, or are we cogs? Are we markets, or are we communities? My fear is that the timeframe in which we make that descision for ourselves is incredibly short - and our indecision will allow others to make it for us.

The system may or may not decide, it depends but we won't see a "collapse" like many people think. When I say a "collapse" I am talking about the starvation of half the North American population.

Personally, I believe we are being pushed to new forms of Socialism. The Liberals have been pushing "equality" and all sorts of things for 2 generations now, which makes most of what the young believe, to be inline with Socialism.

What will arise out of this mess is a new system where a new form of Socialism takes form, probably similar to Canada but with government owned banks and utilities.

I don't mind Socialism too much, however extreme forms of socialism are evil, because the Socialistic system lives and dies on people agreeing with it. Dissenters need to be removed from the system. In a capitalistic society, dissenter just become poor.

Originally Posted by historycircus

I have just finished listening to the Jeff Rense interview with B. Fulford, and that was following the second Bob Dean interview. I have a few thoughts and questions for the group.

Both Dean and Fulford - as well as George Green and half the other whistleblowers interviewed through Camelot, Rense, Coast to Coast, etc. - invoked the horrors of the Federal Reserve. This institution seems to be at the heart of every conspiracy theory known under the sun in this century, and the last. There have been entire threads here on Avalon dedicated to the fight against this institution. That the Fed is bad is the consensus, I both get it, and agree with it.

But something Bob Dean said struck me: "one world government" is a necessary step on our evolutionary path - to move beyond what we are now as a species. Capitalism has the mechanisms in place to facilitate the growth of a one world government quickly, and allows for the practice of democracy. No matter what the theory - from Nibiru to more conventional "global climate change" - it appears that we need to unite as a species if we want to survive the coming years, and with great haste. Can we use the structures that exist, "rinse" them (thanks Zynox), and use them in a more equitable and noble purpose?

Capitalism has become a boogeyman, demonized even by myself, but I wonder now if it cannot be salvaged. Roses are not without their thorns, right? Capitalism has been steered since the turn of the 20th century toward uber-exploitation, but it has been the Federal Reserve in the driver's seat. They are the clearinghouse of capital upon which the markets depend. Can we simply purge the system of the "Fed," and preserve our market economy? Or is Capitalism too badly damaged, or too inherently corrupt, to rehabilitate?

And one more question. There is another side to developing a more, shall we call it, "enlightened capitalism." Fulford said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "people who go to work are selling poison soda to people. It's meaningless. People should be deciding to do something worthwhile, like making Mars green . . . ." Should we, the people, have a larger role as capital brokers for industrial development? Do we have a duty to do so, for the creation and maintenance of MEANINGFUL industries and projects? Since the taxpayers now own banks, and will probably be acquiring a few mortages along the way, and will soon be cutting corporate welfare checks to failing industry, perhaps this is the moment we take it all back? Maybe it is our duty to take it all back? Maybe we need an amendment to the constitution titled something like "The Industrial Oversight Amendment"? I don't want to come off as the ghost of Marx or anything, but perhaps we are confronting a future where the people need more, democratic control over the means of production; or in the new-fangled lingo of the Neo-Marxists, the people should restructure the relationships of production. And I ask this, is it not our moral duty to do so? If we don't, what kind of world are we leaving for our great great great grandchildren?

What you think? Grab the hose, or let the fuxer burn?

Capitalism is a good system as a whole, with proper regulation but it really depends on the people in the system. In the 40's and 50's, the "Greatest Generation" in World War 2 had come out of the Depression and War and were willing to spread the wealth a bit. The subsequent generations (Baby Boomers) were more selfish. Generation X and Y are totally self absorbed and only care about themselves, hence we are OK we firing 2000 people to give ourselves a pay rise.

What impact does that have on Capitalism?

The impact is that the more selfish the generation, the greater the divide becomes between people. People only care about themselves and not about the community, and they do anything to get ahead.

Eventually the system collapses due to greed.

Right now, we are only a few steps above Feudalism.


The Federal Reserve is **** because it prints up money for the Government, and charges interest. Basically, it steals money from the people, directly.

[adam]

dear history circus,

there has been a long-term argument in international relations theory about what you just mentioned....

the anarchial space that exists betwen states. can it be eliminated? if so, does it require a one-world government...

according to liberal internationalism, no. there are so-called "rules to the game" which is the institutionalization of international norms of engagement that can govern the so-called anarchy that exists on the international stage.

is a one-world government necessary for our evolution as human beings in this temproral space? no.

however, i will say that there is a trend toward (and it will be gaining great speed) the stronger institutionalization of norms governing the foreign policy of nation-states.

the cry started after WWII when it became blindingly apparent that sometimes a country cannot govern itself and protect its own citizens from crimes due to the failure of state-level institutions (i.e., the holocaust).

many say that the 6th day of ethics/blossoming of the mayan calendar will start here next month. i would agree on a spiritual level....

expect to see a greater trend toward regional integration as the sovereignty of individual nations has been slowly erroded over the years by such things as globalization of trade, communications, transnational civil society organizations, the internationalization of rules of democratic governance, etc....

there is strength in numbers. however, sovereignty and cutural differences are vast. a one-world government is an impossibility.... however a confederacy of states on a regional level is quite possible given geographic, language, and racial barriers that still do dominate our thought processes.

I would also like to mention the trend toward democratization. Liberalism stresses the importance of self expression. This is something people tend to take for granted when discussing the rich tapestry of human existence by debasing our evolution and referring to us as "sheep".

Dr. Deagle brings a lot to the table. I do however wonder at times if his expansive view of the present has not skewed his vision of the future. It is easy to be bogged down in the mire of destruction that surrounds us, but....


a slight shift in the paradigm that describes our human thought processes... a so-called shift from linear to non-linear thinking would immediately change all of this (2012 emergence of a new paradigm).

food for thought.

peace

[Zynox]

Originally Posted by adam

the anarchial space that exists betwen states. can it be eliminated? if so, does it require a one-world government...

~ how about, we take sovereign responsibility for ourselves, at every layer and level, then trust each other, and then, finally, quit trumping the opportunity and potential for anarchy ... take a look, my friends, the 'top' already runs this way, in anarchy, without law, without consent ... all we see is stage play, to ensure that we don't start wondering if this anarchy card might be good for all, a ticket to salvation, so, to, speak ...

~ and to another poster, yes, it is, in fact a house of cards, otherwise, why would the newly released bailout / welfare deal documents (( whereby the deals are documented where the government initiates wholesale wealth transfers to banks and fiscal (whore)houses )) have so much redacted and blacked out? our collective tolerance and distraction, coupled with deception, are the framework holding up the house ~ WAIT UNTIL THAT BUTTERFLY FLAPS ITS WING!!!!

Does anyone rationally think that the street value of the dollar should be increasing, in these moments, or that the street value of gold should be falling (it IS not, try to buy anything at a coin store at published spot prices) ... and once one consciously (WITHOUT EMOTION or 'beliefs') answers these questions, then, well, the veils drop, and the emperor ~ GASP ~ is butt ugly and naked!

~ much love ~

Originally Posted by Zynox

~ how about, we take sovereign responsibility for ourselves, at every layer and level, then trust each other, and then, finally, quit trumping the opportunity and potential for anarchy ...

If it is all a well crafted lie, how much responsibility to we really bear? Some to be sure, but all? Are the monkeys at the zoo responsible for their captivity? Excercising sovereign responsibility in an autonomous, altruistic way in this day and age gets one scrutinized and persecuted in completely immoral ways.

If it is all about free will - emphasized by the "whistleblowers" and gurus alike - why are we, as a species, being pushed to excercise a free will now, after centuries of suppression and manipulation designed to inhibit and outright crush it? Its like asking a three year old to solve complex algebraic equations, and when he can't, chastizing him for his immaturity and lack of intelligence.

[Rocky_Shorz]

If I understand it right, October 31st is the end of the Hedge Fund year, most will dump poor performing stocks to show a strong cash balance for the new year...

What does that mean when all the stocks have been poor performers? Are we looking at a massive sell off before close on Thursday?

The closing bell has come and gone - I think the market actually ended up today. The market will probably decline steadily for the next 12-24 months, unemployment will creep toward 10%, and we will continue to export our "slightly higher than minimum wage" manufacturing jobs - but I just don't think the system will be purposely crashed. It is not in the best interest of the PTB.

I listened to NPR today on my way home, and one of the first spots on "All Things Considered" was a bit on the credit default swaps. Our economic system can be frightening when the light gets shined on it.

[Rocky_Shorz]

unless our Irish friend is right about a disaster coming this Sunday, I think we are going to make it through this night of the Mayan Calendar that ends Nov 7th...

Barclay's won't accept European Money, are they holding back the Illuminati or do they own this bank hoping to pull money in from other sources?

I think that we will see an incredible surge in the stock market this week, especially after Obama "wins" the election.

Here is the good news. The stock market, despite what a lot of you folks believe, is still subject to the whims of thousands still willing to make market decisions for their own best interests - not do what they are told to do. Obama's victory, hyped as the presidency of change, will inspire those who can make their own decisions to be calm, keep their money in certain U.S. industries (yes, we still have some), and wait till January to do anything of any significance.

Here is another bit of silver lining to the coming months. If you have the money, buy property. Be smart about it. Don't sign a lease for space at the local failed strip mall. Buy property. No matter how miniscule the gain, it will be a gain nonetheless. Afraid that the bank is going to default on your twenty grand in savings, and that FDIC - although mandated - will fail at the exact moment you need it to work? Got a savings invested in useless 401ks? Buy a hunk of ground - put your money in hard land. Gold mongers will tell you different, and you can bet, they will have all kinds of advice on how to get into the precious metals market. Anywho, if you are looking for something to put your dollars in before dollars become worthless, and will hold its value (or considering the current real estate situation, only increase in value) for years to come, go buy land. You can either A: resell it at a profit in ten years, B: resell it and break even in a few years, C: live off it for now, sell it later for a profit, or D: keep it forever, live off it, and love it - passing it on to the next generation and learning where you come from in the process.

Buy land, not gold.

Just a thought. I'm willing to listen to reasons for why I am wrong, as long as those reasons are researched and knowledgeable.

What do you think?

[samncheese]

Capitalism requires a form of slavery. The masses must agree to be enslaved in debt to make a few wealthy. Someone must work for next to nothing so the other slaves will buy it cheap enough to go out get into more debt. Now all are inslaved to debt (but a few), The question shouldn't be is capitalizm bad? The question is what do you replace it with???

Comunism sucked, what do you put in it's place??? I suggest that something new must happen to man and his lust for power must change before the way we deal with each other, on a global scale, will change.

I am not saying we are all power hungery, but there seems to be just enouph of the type in each group to screw things up.

Hi Samncheese,

I know there is a lot of stuff out there that speaks of debt as an evil thing, but dig this. Let's say I'm broke - flat broke. No change, no gold, no assets. You are my best friend, and have money that does not need to be spent for two weeks. The only way for me to get back and forth to work for the week, and pick up my paycheck on Friday, is to find someone to borrow twenty bucks from. I turn to you, my best friend, and you loan me twenty bucks - essentially making me a loan, expecting repayment, and allowing me to fall into debt.

Am I evil for asking for, then taking the loan? Are you evil for loaning it to me, and promoting my debt? Is that not what the capitalist system is supposed to do on a much larger scale? Are all forms of credit/debt immoral? These questions, I think, steer the discussion here right back to the original intent I had when starting this thread - to discuss practical and useful ways for those who will be a part of future safe/radiant zones to engage in economic activity. For that Samncheese, I thank you greatly.

So, what do you all think?

[adam]

Originally Posted by historycircus

Hi Samncheese,

Am I evil for asking for, then taking the loan? Are you evil for loaning it to me, and promoting my debt? Is that not what the capitalist system is supposed to do on a much larger scale? Are all forms of credit/debt immoral? These questions, I think, steer the discussion here right back to the original intent I had when starting this thread - to discuss practical and useful ways for those who will be a part of future safe/radiant zones to engage in economic activity. For that Samncheese, I thank you greatly.

So, what do you all think?

dear history circus,

i think spreading the vibration of abundance is crucial to the upliftment of the group. People these days are far more responsive to such notions. The 80s are over. This is the fundamental difference between 3rd density, solar plexus fear and what people call 4th density heart/harmony/abundance.

I think the Ra material referred to 4th density as the "green ray" and said that it is already here, but its a matter of people aligning themselves with this vibration.

Only ten years ago, I was barely able to speak to people about such things as abundance and heart "vibrations" without being labeled a crazy new age hipster w/ absolutely no idea about what's really going on.

These days, I speak and say "heart vibration" and people nod and say "yes!" I think the radiant zone is non-physical. I think the radiant zone is one's aura which radiates peace and upliftment and abundance to those who are still in the dark.

But lo, the dark isnt a comfortable place anymore and people want out. Sure some want to stay still, but even simple eye contact w/ people these days is enough to spread the radiant zone.

So to answer your question, I believe it is individual effort and the radiance of joy which is the presence of one's soul in daily life that transforms a waiting world.

peace

[Zynox]

Originally Posted by adam

So to answer your question, I believe it is individual effort and the radiance of joy which is the presence of one's soul in daily life that transforms a waiting world.

peace

Adam,

I love you brother, along with all posters here, but you have ~ NAILED ~ it.

And that emote animation, well, it warms me fierce~!

~ much love ~

Originally Posted by adam

I believe it is individual effort and the radiance of joy which is the presence of one's soul in daily life that transforms a waiting world.

Agreed. Those words are inspired by wisdom.

[voltron]

New World Order Plans for the World Economy
http://www.cosmicawareness.org November 2008 Issue
There will eventually be five social/economic/political regions. The European Union has already been formed. The North American Union is the next. It is due by 2010. Then there will be the South American, the Asian, and then the Austro/Asian regions. Australia would fit into the Asian community. There is also seen a region around Africa/the Middle East, in that region. Eventually these five regions will fall under the One World Government, The New World Order as proposed by the elite cabal, those who are in charge. They have already divided up the world. They have already planned its future. Events such as the collapse of the American economy is designed towards creating a situation that will eventually lead to the proposal of a union of the three nations in North America, for it is seen that the Canadian economy and the Mexican economy will also be affected by the collapse, but not to the same degree, and the bailout will eventually be require being bailed out through the unification of the three nations, the proposal stating that the three together will be stronger and more stable once again than three who are separately struggling to endure the storms that are raging at the moment.

Originally Posted by voltron

New World Order Plans for the World Economy
http://www.cosmicawareness.org November 2008 Issue
There will eventually be five social/economic/political regions. The European Union has already been formed. The North American Union is the next. It is due by 2010. Then there will be the South American, the Asian, and then the Austro/Asian regions. Australia would fit into the Asian community. There is also seen a region around Africa/the Middle East, in that region. Eventually these five regions will fall under the One World Government, The New World Order as proposed by the elite cabal, those who are in charge. They have already divided up the world. They have already planned its future. Events such as the collapse of the American economy is designed towards creating a situation that will eventually lead to the proposal of a union of the three nations in North America, for it is seen that the Canadian economy and the Mexican economy will also be affected by the collapse, but not to the same degree, and the bailout will eventually be require being bailed out through the unification of the three nations, the proposal stating that the three together will be stronger and more stable once again than three who are separately struggling to endure the storms that are raging at the moment.

Greetings Voltron,

I found your info interesting, but I'm not sure I totally buy it all.

As I have said for a while, our economic system is ALREADY the perfect cage - most people in the United States and the western world honestly believe that the system as-is is the epitome of freedom, but the truth is that very few economic decisions we make on a daily basis are truly free decisions. From paying bills to buying a pack of gum, our free-will only gets limited exercise. I try to put myself in the PTB shoes - this gobal economic downturn is causing people who would normally not think about such things to pay closer attention to their political leaders, corporate activity, etc. For a group that depends on their ability to operate out of the shadows, their cover is shrinking in the light of scrutiny. I see the current econoic problem as a window of opportunity - but the window can only stay open so long.

I have been reading some of the economic threads, and have a quick thought to share.

The majority here on Avalon believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered. It has been thrown together by the NWO/Illuminati/PTB groups as a way to consolidate power and achieve a reduction in global population, etc. If this this is the interpretation that is true, then we are all doomed, right? We are watching it happen right before our eyes, and there is nothing that we can do except buy our "I love the NWO" t-shirts now and select where we want our chip, or prepare to die horribly - in a concentration camp, or on the streets. If they can engineer something like that, and keep the artificiality of the whole thing a secret from us, then their power is unlimited, and there is absolutely nothing we can do.

Now there is a small minority here on Avalon, myself included, who sees the current global collapse as not engineered - a goof made by the lazy, distracted shepards of our age - but a mistake nonetheless. It represents a crisis in leadership in whatever PTB organization one chooses to believe in. The system as is/was, was one where we drove the Pinto, aspired to drive the Lexus, quietly worked like dogs to get that Lexus, and shrugged with indifference whenever a "third-world" nation got bombed to keep the system alive. It bred docility and allegience. But it is falling apart, and people are taking notice, getting angry, and pushing for something different. I think the PTB are fighting to maintain the control they have, not seeking to consolidate.

In any event, if the latter of the two scenarios above is true, it represents a small window of opportunity to change the entire system. While life might be unpleasant in a "depression" economy, perhaps it will foster a dramatic shift in how we use resources, and treat each other as human beings.

[Orion Morris]

Originally Posted by historycircus

In any event, if the latter of the two scenarios above is true, it represents a small window of opportunity to change the entire system. While life might be unpleasant in a "depression" economy, perhaps it will foster a dramatic shift in how we use resources, and treat each other as human beings.

WORD I feel like it is probably enginered but either way you are right historycircus.