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11-05-2008, 10:05 PM
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Avalon Senior Member
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Location: Merseyside, England
Posts: 50
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
"extradition does not mean conviction" - he shouldn't even be facing trial in a foreign country!
"Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you." - he's facing up to seventy (70) years in prison. At what point, specifically, does he put it behind him if he is convicted and sentenced to seventy years?? I ask you again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence? Quote:
Last edited by TheGhost; 11-05-2008 at 10:28 PM. |
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10-20-2008, 01:40 PM
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Avalon Senior Member
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Posts: 139
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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Theres a difference between ethical behavior and committing crimes. It would not be ethical of me. But it would technically not be a crime. If I ROB you then I commit a crime... If I take something that belongs to you that is not inside your house then I would commit a crime. The fact that there is a house around the object makes no difference. Quote:
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10-20-2008, 01:59 PM
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Avalon Senior Member
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Location: Philly
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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Not exactly "no harm" You refer to enemy combatants, this is not how Gary has been charged. If you read the decisions which Gary has lost there are multiple assurances of fairness. Gary has had due process. He has gotten terrible legal advice. And Gary's side has only been interested in distorting the facts. I understand how they feel, but understand how it hurts the overall credibility of UFO researchers who have never broken the law and are doing everything they legally can do to bring about disclosure. |
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10-20-2008, 04:24 PM
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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This may in fact be the KEY to this whole issue... Had Gary been US citizen it would not have gone this far... but he was a foreigner... As such they can use this to make a bigger issue of it... Add that to these three items... 1) Bill HR 1955, passed in the House 2) Pentagon: The internet needs to be dealt with as if it were an enemy "weapons system". http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=7980 2a) US plans to 'fight the net' revealed http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm 3) Internet presents web of security issues http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/websecurity/ Perhaps they are using this to further their plans to control the internet. If they can show that outsiders like Gary with minimal skills can do what they claim he did... it would give them leverage to place heavy restrictions on the internet |
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09-17-2008, 09:11 AM
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#5 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Any slave with the audacity to question the masters is sure to be whipped.
It is terrible and sad but such is the nature of the Babylon Slavery System. Rasta free the people Over hills and valleys too Don't let them fool you Don't believe one minute that they are with you Jah free the people Over hills and valleys too Don't let them fool you Don't believe for a minute that they are with you |
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09-18-2008, 09:38 PM
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#6 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 39
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
I am only mildly familar with Gary's legal predicament, but it is my understanding he has been accused of hacking into secured US government and/or quasi-governmental computers alledgedly in violation of federal law.
I suspect that he will eventually plea to the charges and spend sometime in a federal prison, before being send back to the UK, after they have made a sufficient example of him. The vast majority of all criminal and civil cases resolve by pleas and settlements--80 to 90% or so of all cases end this way. In the relatively unlikely event that he does go to trial, I doubt very much that the court will permit any evidence of the contents of the computers and the substance of what Gary claims to have found to be admitted into evidence. Indeed, before trial the prosecution will most likely obtain an order from the judge excluding any such evidence on the ground that it is irrelevant. They will do this by way of a motion in limne. Such a motion is filed by litigants asking the court to exclude evidence that is irrelevant, immaterial, cumulative, or unduly prejudicial in the sense that it appeals to passion, prejudice and bias, rather than sense and reason. I have not looked at the laws under which he is charged, but I will bet you that the "crimes" he is charged with committing are committed by the act of hacking, and in no way is guilt or innocence a function of what you find when you hack. (Think about that for a minute.) Thus, what is found will be ruled irrelevant to establish the elements of the crime or any defenses thereto, and the federal judge (his case will be or already is in federal court) will rule that any such evidence is inadmissible. For that reason no one, including Dan Burich, will be permitted to testify as to what Gary found in the computers nor give any factual testimony or expert opinion as to the truth or falsity of the contents of the computers. The powers-that-be will, therefore, have no need to keep the media out of the trial, or assert national security, state secrects or some other legal fiction to keep the truth concerning the contents of the computers out of evidence, because the court will not permit the contents or substance of what Gary discovered in the computers into evidence, having determined that it is irrelevant to prove the elements of the crime or to prove Gary's innocence. I'm sorry folks but, in my humble opinion, Gary's case will not provide the opportunity to prove that the government engages in black ops or is aware of extraterrestrial life forms who are in contact with we mere and mortal Earthlings, any more than the few cases filed by family members of the victims of 9/11 proved that 9/11 was an inside job. Albeit, the reasons the latter cases failed to get to the truth of 9/11 (immunity, failure to state a calim etc...) are different than why Gary's case will fail to get to the truth about alien life forms and visitations or government black ops. Regards, Stevan Looney |
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09-19-2008, 12:30 AM
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#7 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 72
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
....hate to be off-the-wall here, but i just have to say it...
amazing that this guy is getting all this heat. even more astounding is the possible sentence this man faces for hacking into a computer.... meanwhile....child abusers (of all types) are slapped on the wrist daily and walking away with meager sentences.... gotta love america.... |
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09-19-2008, 01:07 AM
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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11-04-2008, 10:37 PM
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Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
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11-04-2008, 10:40 PM
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#10 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
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11-05-2008, 12:39 AM
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#11 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 80
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
I have just finished reading this entire thread and a few very good logical arguments and comments have been posted, most notably by Murnut and Zorgon (in my opinion of course). If Gary had not been an inept, stoner who seems to have been playing at this like it was a computer game, what with leaving threats on government computers and hacking from a DIAL UP computer, for heavens sake!!!!, he probably would have been "offered" a choice - go to work for the government, or be disappeared.
He's most likely only being made an example of because he's a foreigner AND he is a bungler. GREAT hackers are a true danger to the PTB, and most of them end up working FOR the government or having an accident. Inept hackers are a bother and occasionally get made examples of. Whether or not Gary was a random choice out of the many inept hackers, so what. He played the game, he took his chances knowing there were laws he was breaking that might have serious consequences, and he did it very stupidly. Far from a hero I feel that he is now just a rather pathetic pawn for both sides. He is being used as an example by the PTB and he's being used as a "hero" or cause celebre by the UFO or alternative community. He's still just a pawn, and apparently not very intelligent or he might have cut his losses when he had the chance. If you're going to play with the big boys, get ready for the backlash if you are found out. As far as breaking laws to find out information, I have no real problem with that, but only if you're an EXPERT at finding out things and BETTER at it, than the guys who are keeping things secret. Otherwise you should stick to finding out through channels where you won't be tangling with the PTB, because they play for keeps, and for the most part the guys in the intelligence field aren't stupid just because they work for the government. Underestimating them is a sign of very poor judgement. Gary obviously (at least to me) was a loose cannon with no finesse and no knowledge of what he was dealing with, or if he had some knowledge, maybe the dope smoking gave him a false and ignorant sense of bravado. It is imperative to truly know the scope of your own abilities. If you decide to do something illegal, no matter WHAT your motivations and whether or not you agree with the law, be prepared for the results if you get caught. That's just plain common sense. You may think the US Government is a "terrorist" government, but they are no different than other governments. The true PTB manipulate all governments. If you want to be a counter terrorist against "terrorist" governments you darn well better train and prepare yourself instead of thinking that just because you have certain beliefs in "truth" and "goodness" that makes you better than the bad guys. You have to know how to be BADDER than the bad guys, and yes, it can endanger your own soul, at least temporarily. You will often be using the same means you despise to fight that which you wish to destroy. But it's all a game in the long run, isn't it. That is ONE way to fight the PTB, but there is another way. Develop your innate "spiritual" powers to the point where you don't have to fight with the same tools the PTB use. Do not engage with them on their level and don't play their game. If you remain in conflict you will perpetuate the game you seem to want to escape. As Murnut says, what will you replace them with? Just more of the same. In order to end the game you may only end it for yourself! This battle will never really be a group effort. But if you do want to continue living in their world of conflict, fear, action and reaction, please at least do not be a bungler like "poor" Gary McKinnon was and still seems to be. Nancy |
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11-05-2008, 04:11 AM
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#12 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
I do feel bad for Gary.
I know he is sick. He is making himself sick perhaps, worrying about what was going to happen to him. He would have been out long ago had he not just faced up to it. There was never any threat of Guantanamo, or military tribunals, or torture. Gary got very poor advice along the way, or maybe he got good advice that he chose to ignore. Gary if you read this, get this over with. Make a deal and move on with your life. Don't listen to those that would use you to further their own cause |
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11-12-2008, 03:06 PM
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Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
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11-12-2008, 04:39 PM
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary McKinnon
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11-12-2008, 06:28 PM
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#15 |
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
I'm not looking for an argument but if you have any links I'd appreciate reading them, because the only news I've heard on this matter is outside the US.
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11-12-2008, 06:42 PM
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#16 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...ciTech_4306168 Brit Hacker Loses U.S. Extradition Appeal LONDON, July 30, 2008(AP) Some call it the biggest hack of military computers; perhaps it was just a big embarrassment. Gary McKinnon — accused of breaking into military and NASA computers in what he claims was a search for UFOs, allegedly causing nearly $1 million in damage — has lost his appeal for extradition to the United States. McKinnon, 42, an unemployed computer administrator, allegedly broke into 97 computers belonging to the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, and Department of Defense from a bedroom in a north London home. His attacks between 2001 and 2002 allegedly shut down the Army district responsible for protecting Washington, and cleared logs from computers at the Naval Weapons Station Earle in New Jersey that tracks the location and battle-readiness of Navy ships. That last attack, coming immediately after the Sept. 11, knocked out the station's entire network of 300 computers. NASA and privately owned computers also were damaged, prosecutors said, putting the total cost of his online activities at $900,000. At the time of his indictment, prosecutor Paul McNulty said McKinnon pulled off "the biggest hack of military computers ever — at least ever detected." In his defense, McKinnon, known online as SOLO, said he was trying to expose security weaknesses and uncover evidence of UFOs. "I was a man obsessed," McKinnon wrote on The Guardian newspaper's Web site last year, describing a year spent trying to break into U.S. military systems: eight hours a day at a computer in his girlfriend's aunt's house while unkempt, drinking beer and smoking marijuana. In interviews, he claimed that his hacking uncovered photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of "non-terrestrial officers." Prosecutors accuse him of deliberately trying to intimidate the U.S. government by tearing through their networks. They pointed to a note written by McKinnon — and left on an Army computer — attacking U.S. foreign policy as "akin to government-sponsored terrorism." "It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year," he wrote. "I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels." McKinnon was caught in 2002 after some of the software used in the attacks was traced back to his girlfriend's e-mail account. The U.S. sought his extradition, a move his lawyer Claire Anderson claimed Wednesday was motivated by the government's desire to "make an example" of a man who humbled officials in Washington by hacking into their systems using off-the-shelf office software and a dial-up modem. Aspects of American cyber-security had been shown up as "really shameful," with some computers not even password-protected, said Graham Cluley, a security consultant with Sophos PLC. He said the United States appeared to be pursuing McKinnon in an effort to flexing its legal muscle to the hacking community, which has watched the case with interest. "The overriding message is: You shouldn't mess with American government and military computers, particularly right after Sept. 11," Cluley said. McKinnon's lawyers had hoped to hold any trial in Britain, saying he could be dragged before a military tribunal or even end up at Guantanamo Bay. In their appeals, they said McKinnon was warned by U.S. officials that he would not be allowed to serve any part of his sentence in Britain unless he agreed to cooperate with his extradition. That, they argued, amounted to an unlawful threat and abuse of process. Not so, Britain's House of Lords said Wednesday. Lord Brown, writing for Britain's highest court, said plea bargaining could only be called an abuse of process "in a wholly extreme case." "This is far from being such a case," he said. While the decision exhausts McKinnon's legal options in Britain, Anderson said she would appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. She said British authorities had agreed to keep McKinnon in Britain for at least two weeks to allow his lawyers to prepare their application. "If that fails, then it's off to jail in America for 60 years," McKinnon told the British Broadcasting Corp. "Rapists and murderers and real terrorists get less." Should McKinnon be extradited, he would face trial in Virginia and New Jersey on eight charges of computer fraud. Each charge potentially carries a sentence of up to 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. However, U.S. sentencing guidelines would likely recommend a much lighter sentence. |
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11-12-2008, 08:16 PM
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#17 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 63
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
murnut do you have a problem with following simple logic? i'll try to keep it as simple as possible for you. only cause i like you
 BASIS FOR FREEDOM OF EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION PREMIS 1. ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL. PREMIS 2. EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE GIVES ADVANTAGE TO THE KNOWER. (I.E. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER) CONCLUSION 1. ALL EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION/KNOWLEDGE SHOULD BE EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL HUMANS. CONCLUSION 2. GARY IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SEARCH FOR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF AGREE THEN SEND ARGUMENT TO MR PODESTA AT http://change.gov/page/s/contact IF NOT, THEN PLEASE IDENTIFY A FALSE PREMISE OR FAILURE OF PRIMES LEADING TO CONCLUSION Last edited by martian31v; 11-12-2008 at 08:28 PM. |
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11-13-2008, 02:56 AM
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#18 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philly
Posts: 179
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
Your logic is flawed, and is not based in reality of what actually is, and what can actually be. Fairy tales, just like many insider "releases" Ever wonder why they target the ufo community only? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ UFO vigilantism hurts the serious research. Interesting that vigilantism has been a huge failure. Ya know why? Vigilantes are not taken seriously |
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11-13-2008, 05:32 PM
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#19 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 63
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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11-13-2008, 03:10 AM
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#20 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 80
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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Premis 2: Yes, knowledge can be advantageous Conclusion 1: "Shoulds" don't work. Life is not fair. Humans always have and always will keep secrets in order to gain advantage. That's just reality. Conslusion 2: Gary doesn't need a justification to do anything, he only has to accept the consequences of his actions if he's caught by someone who is able to control him because they are stronger or badder than he is. |
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11-13-2008, 05:16 PM
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#21 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 63
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
"shoulds" do work as natural extensions of premises. again logic 101. conclusions follow premises. your "humans always will..." and "that's just reality" is literal nonsense. the fact that there are injustices doesn't make it right. i made a rational justification for gary's actions. you respond with subjective nonsense. inside your ABSURD reasoning "... accept the consequences of his actions because he was caught by someone who is stronger" ARE YOU KIDDING???? your reasoning has just supported every fascist dictatorship that has oppressed humans for eons. and you've done so with the same level of intelligence, NONE. i would first go take logic 101, so you could actually debate from an objective perspective. then maybe you could respond appropriately to the argument. Last edited by martian31v; 11-13-2008 at 06:18 PM. |
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11-16-2008, 03:59 PM
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#22 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 80
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
You are entirely too emotional in your responses. Because you want things to be a certain way does not make it so. Perhaps you could point out to me any time throughout history when man has not perpetrated injustices upon other men? My reasoning supports no one group and no one person, it supports the truth. I am relatively unattached to needing things to be different than they are, so unlike you, I have a very minor agenda of "shoulds". Your "foundational assumption" that all men are created equal is just that, an assumption. It's a lovely sounding assumption, but not based in reality. Of course all souls are equal, ultimately, but all bodies are not equal and the minds that control the bodies are also not equal. Perhaps another look into the actual meaning of the word "equal" would be advisable. As far as "human rights", that's a creation of man. We have the "rights" that we are able to envision, take for ourselves and retain, either by intelligence or enforcement. The last time I looked, man was still enmeshed in the survival of the fittest scenario here on the earthplane. Nowhere in what I said in my previous post was there even a hint that I thought "injustices were right", in fact, for you to come to that conclusion shows me that your vested interest in having your theories upheld contributes to your inability to see reality. In addition, saying that my statements "support every fascist dictatorship" is patently absurd in the extreme. I don't "support" anything in my statements or outlook, I observe reality and state it as it is. Emotionality and attachment blind one to truth, and personal attacks on another because you feel threatened are a great weakness. It appears to me that you are probably relatively young and inexperienced, but do not despair, you have lots of time, in fact you have eternity. Nancy |
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11-18-2008, 12:27 AM
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#23 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 63
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Quote:
you are entirely correct about my emotions and the negative affect they played in my communications with you and murnut. one of these days i will learn that lesson. i do apologize to you both for my tone and language.  from one perspective your views on "shoulds" is appealing and admirable. not an easy perspective to live from, especially in this world. but from another perspective "shoulds" or "intentions" are the means toward creating a new realty, and a necessary aspect of our free will. if i am not satisfied with my/our reality, then i am inherently required to attempt a change. "should", then becomes the responsibility of those who seek change. the fact that man has consistently perpetrated injustices, should not lead to the conclusion that those injustices are inevitable. we live in a reality that is constantly changing, and we have the ability to participate in that process of change. therefor, "should" is a necessary aspect of our reality. "should" is the impetus of creation. the assumption that all humans are created equal is a necessary assumption in the process of defining human rights. if we do not start with that fundamental assumption, then it is possible for any group or individual to claim superiority over another. the fact that some humans already claim superiority over others does not negate the necessity of this assumption. if all souls are created equal and all human body's maintain a soul, then all human body's are created equal. this is true despite our actions to the contrary. if that premise holds and you agree to the 2nd premise (sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowlege leading to inequity of power), then a conclusion of an inherent right to pursue existential information seems to naturally follow. if interested in continuing debate, i promise to remain unattached and void of childish insults.  i do apologize. thank you for calling me out, martian
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11-18-2008, 08:05 PM
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#24 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 80
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
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I have found it much easier to live in this world after I stopped worrying about "shoulds" so much. Yes, I agree that intentions are powerful and are useful in creating a new reality. But how is it free will for you if my intentions for you are that you comply with my version of reality? You may seek to change the reality of others but if they don't accept your version of what they should do or how they should be, so what? We can put out our desires for the reality we envision, but if others reject it, perhaps that is absolutely not in alignment with the lessons they are to learn at this time in their journey. If there is resistance, then it's often a good time to back off. We will not all agree about everything and that's the way it is. I cannot make an absolute statement that all violence is bad or unjust since man has perpetrated "injustices" since time immemorial. I'm not even sure about the absolute meaning of "unjust", since it might be completely JUST that someone perpetrates violence upon another for some reason that I'm not aware of. Perhaps it might be a karmic thing, or a pre-arranged scenario agreed upon before incarnating, or many other things I can't even imagine. It seems to be part of the human equation, how can that be inherently wrong in all cases without knowing the bigger picture? Just because I don't like people treating others cruelly does not mean that I can or should eradicate cruelty from the world, nor is it my place to tell everyone else that they "SHOULD" be peaceful and loving when I really don't know the ultimate purpose of incarnation on this earth plane. It may very well be a part of YOUR purpose that you will tell everyone else what they should do, according to your present knowledge and level of awareness, but I find that the older I get, the fewer absolute convictions I have when it comes to telling others how they should live their lives (except for my children!). In my opinion this is a solo trip, a singular challenge. The less time I spend worrying about changing everyone else the more time I can spend thinking about what I do, what pleases me, how I should act and what I think is right for me to do and say. It's also not of concern to me what others think about me. Basically it's not any of my business what your opinion of me is. Life is so much simpler this way. I rarely get offended because I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. Sure, I care a huge amount about this whole trip here on the earthplane and the entire great journey, but I have one belief that I allow myself, and that is... that it's all working out exactly the way it's supposed to. Why?? Because it IS. Since your basic premise is fatally flawed - that all humans are created equal - your subsequent logic is flawed. We each have built in effects from and limitations of knowledge, awareness, physical health, motivations, genetics, karmic baggage, gender, race, geographical location, parents, etc. We live in a duality. On the one hand we are unlimited and all loving. On the other hand we have many limitations, inequalities, and we are capable of hate and great violence. Until we merge our "lower self" with our "higher self" we are affected by both, and we may be affected by both even after leaving this incarnation. It depends on where your particular soul/mind resides. Yes, we are all equal as we approach the Source, but as separated parts of the Source we are not equally endowed. I do agree that "sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowledge and inequity of power". So what? That's the way it is here. Everyone does it! It is not merely the purview of "evil government". If we were meant to know everything we would have telepathic abilities much more developed than we do. But we can and do easily fool each other and lie to each other on a daily basis in every aspect of our lives. As far as "rights", I still maintain that the only rights you have are the ones you take for yourself and keep for yourself. We do not have the power to grant "rights" to others. I do not agree that "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It sounds good, I LIKE it, but I don't believe it. It was agreed upon by men who signed it, after some pretty heated debates, but even many of them didn't believe we were created equal, certainly they didn't all believe that Blacks or Indians were equal. Thomas Jefferson himself stated that he believed blacks were inherently inferior to whites, and he also included Indians in that opinion. I like my husband's response when asked if he's a racist. He says "I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally!" His point being that you can find just as many vile specimens of human beings in any race and either gender. I'm sure the humor of that will escape those who think one must always be "loving". The government has just as much "right" to hide information as you have a "right" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We don't LIKE that the government keeps so many secrets and the government doesn't like it when people like Gary McKinnon try to hack into those secrets. Since Gary is not as strong as his government in the UK, they may force him to go to the US and accept the punishment for his actions. The US government is more powerful than Gary, so he can either fight, flee, or accept his fate for doing something ill advised with possibly harsh consequences. What I really don't get is why the vast majority of members who have posted in this thread don't understand that Murnut is correct. He is not hostile or argumentative, although he is continuing to respond. Mainly it is his detractors who don't like anyone disagreeing with them because they believe THEY are inherently RIGHT! He has presented a logical summation of the circumstances and of Gary's choices. On the other hand we have a bunch of zealots who seem to need an iconic figure to help them in their fight for truth, justice and against the evil government. One of the funniest things I see is that Gary doesn't make a very good icon. He's a 42 year old stoner who was stupid enough to hack into the US Military with a dial up dinosaur of a computer and leave threats!!! If he didn't know about any potential consequences then he's also an ignoramus. It's not like he's a Ghandi or a Martin Luther King! But each will have their own causes and passions. I think the whole thing is very entertaining. Nancy |
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11-18-2008, 08:33 PM
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#25 |
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Avalon Senior Member
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Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon
Thank-you Nancy
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