Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayable.

[peacelovinman]

Hi everyone

I'd like to add my two-penneth worth into this discussion.

Some years ago I managed to get myself out of all personal debt by selling a house that had apprecaited in worth. The reason was three fold:

1) So I didn't waste time working just to pay interest on what I borrowed.
2) To ensure as few people/organisations had any hold over me (when you owe someone, they have power over you).
3) Because I DETEST the immoral banking system.

Let's get one thing straight here: the majority of money in our economy HAS BEEN CREATED FROM THIN AIR! Where did the billions come to bail out the banks? It was created from nothing! Nobody put anything of worth into the deal - the money was simply created from nothing. This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.

Now, I don't have any credit card debts so I can't test out the fact that the agreements are uneforceable. But for those of you that, like me, would like your view of how the financial world works blown apart, I suggest you read "Spiritual Economics: How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known To Man" by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. You can download it for free from various places on the net.

For those of you who argue that, if you borrow $ 10,000 and don't pay it back, someone loses out show a naive understanding of how our economy works. If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature. That's why the contract is unenforceable. If you ask the credit card company to show you the actual accounting to validate the debt, they can't! They do not sustain a loss if you do not repay because the credit was created from nothing!

Lastly, a question for Mike. I quite like the sound of the Liberty Wealth Club but I have fallen victim to some of these network marketing scams before. Does the club offer something of real value or does it just teach people a "system" whereby you get paid for recruiting people into the system?

In other words, does it provide worthwhile financial information to their members in return for a fee, with those members that recommend others to join being paid a small commission or residual on their subscription (nothing wrong with that in my book)...

or...

Do they simply show you how to make money by recruiting people into the system who, in order to make money, have to recruit others with no actual worthwhile service or product being offered (a con, in my book)?

Originally Posted by peacelovinman

Hi everyone



Let's get one thing straight here: the majority of money in our economy HAS BEEN CREATED FROM THIN AIR! Where did the billions come to bail out the banks? It was created from nothing! Nobody put anything of worth into the deal - the money was simply created from nothing. This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.

Agreed.

But that does not address the exchange of energy [labor] for goods and services, or goods and services exchanged for goods and services[barter].

No one wants to talk about that aspect

If you want a wide screen television that is valued at
1.36 ounces of gold, which is real money by any accounting that would be 1000 fiat dollars for discussion.

It took labor and materials to build that television. You need to come up with an equivalent amount of energy or goods to compensate the builders for their effort. Or you need to build your own television.

Put another way. The jerk that owes me 1000 fiat dollars. You are saying that he owes me nothing because I gave him nothing. This is not correct. I gave him forty hours of my life. He took the equivalent of my time and translated it into goods and services. Now he refuses to return the equivalent of my time to me. In order to replace that stored energy I am required to give up forty more hours of my time just to return to where I was before I encountered him. I am eighty hours older to maintain my lifestyle because of him.

You purchase a home for twohundredthousand dollars.
The owner walks away with the equivalent of 8000 hours of labor/life time that he will not have to work (using the pay rate of twenty five fiat dollars an hour). Now if you only give 1000 hours of your time, the owner has the time and your lender does not.

The value of an object or service is relative. If you can convince the owner to trade that home for a paper clip -
than it is a fair exchange because both parties are content with their exchange. However, if one of those parties is not content, then you have disparity and a problem. The point is, at the time of exchange you agreed that the value of that home was 8,000 hours of your life. Then, down the road you change your mind and only want to give 1000 hours of your life, yet can still exchange that home for eight thousand hours of another persons life? There is a disparity apparent here which I do not understand. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Money is just an exchange medium. A system of stored
energy. What is the value of your life? A paperclip? It is all negotiable.

I do not have a problem with renegotiating the entire system. But rest assured, it will be replaced with another system unless you are clever enough to get the rest of the world to give you their lives with nothing in return as the money changers have. In the end it all comes down to meeting the needs and wants of people.
On a small scale this is fairly easy. Face to face, you know when you have been swindled. You also know when you look in the mirror if you have behaved without integrity. But on a larger scale, it is much easier to lose sight of the ethics of living in the world.

[peacelovinman]

Originally Posted by Baggywrinkle

Put another way. The jerk that owes me 1000 fiat dollars. You are saying that he owes me nothing because I gave him nothing. This is not correct. I gave him forty hours of my life. He took the equivalent of my time and translated it into goods and services. Now he refuses to return the equivalent of my time to me. In order to replace that stored energy I am required to give up forty more hours of my time just to return to where I was before I encountered him. I am eighty hours older to maintain my lifestyle because of him.

No, I am not saying that. The original question talked about credit agreements; what you allude to is not a credit agreement but a contract to supply goods or services. You do not have a legal right to create credit as banks do. If you attempted to do so, you would be arrested for counterfeiting.

In the transaction you detail above, you are more than able to show the accounting (i.e. that you have suffered material loss by somebody not paying you). Therefore, if you can also show that you have a legally binding contract with that person for supply of goods, you can collect, in fiat currency or any other medium of exchange agreed in your contract.

Banks and credit companies have given NOTHING and can therefore not show where a liability has occured. Again, I suggest you read the Mary Elizabeth: Croft book if you want to study the arguements.

Thanks for your comments, friend, and for advancing the discussion.

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by peacelovinman

For those of you who argue that, if you borrow $ 10,000 and don't pay it back, someone loses out show a naive understanding of how our economy works. If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature. That's why the contract is unenforceable. If you ask the credit card company to show you the actual accounting to validate the debt, they can't! They do not sustain a loss if you do not repay because the credit was created from nothing!

Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.

The problem is that it is also **** to change the rules on the ones who owe, to make them pay incredble amounts of money, something that constitutes government sponsored ususry by continually changing the rules. That is also an unfair exchange of energy. And I repeat, a repeal of the original contract.

What lalaland some people live in...

[THE eXchanger]

for those who are creating "the money"
there is major karma for them to pay, for doing so

i, for one, am very glad, i am NOT in their shoes

in fact, the only shoes, you can be in, are your OWN

do you honour the ones you are in ???

brightest blessings
susan
the eXchanger

[peacelovinman]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.

Please read the "Croft" book I have already alluded to and you will see a different side to the arguement.

Contempt, prior to complete investigation, enslaves men to ignorance. – Dr. John Whitman Ray

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident. – Arthur Schopenhauer Philosopher, 1788-1860

Capital must protect itself in every possible way, both by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When through the process of law the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers. These truths are well known among our principal men who are now engaged in forming an imperialism to govern the world. By dividing the voter through the political party system we can get them to expend their energies in fighting for questions of no importance. It is thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished. – 1924 US Banker’s Association Magazine

When Rothschild said, Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws, it was the beginning of the modern era’s financial, political, social, commercial, and military strife and subversion. – perfecteconomy.com

The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That board administers a finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. That system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people’s money.
This (Federal Reserve) Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the president signs this bill, the invisible government by the monetary power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed, the worst legislative crime of the ages perpetrated by this banking bill. – Charles A. Lindbergh, R-MN

We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the money
vultures who control it. A superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure. – Louis McFadden, D-PA

Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve system have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States. – Barry Goldwater, R-AZ

I have unwittingly ruined my country. – W. Wilson, upon passage of Federal Reserve Act, 1913

If one understands that Socialism is not a “share the wealth” program but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super rich men promoting Socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking
megalomaniacs. Communism, or more accurately Socialism, is not a movement of the down-trodden masses but of the economic elite. – Gary Allen

It (the Great Depression) was not accidental; it was a carefully contrived occurrence. The international Bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so that they might emerge as rulers of us all. – Louis McFadden

The Federal Reserve definitely caused the Great Depression by contracting the amount of currency in circulation by one third (1/3) from 1929 to 1933. – Milton Friedman

There may be a recession in stock prices, but not anything in the nature of a crash. – Irving Fisher, leading U.S. economist, New York Times, Sept. 5, 1929

Practices of the unscrupulous money-changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. – FDR, who admitted he never read the Act which recalled the gold in 1933

History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance. –
James Madison

It is well enough that the people of this nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. – Henry Ford

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace in a continual state of alarm (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. – H. L. Mencken

[peacelovinman]

Here is an interesting thread from the "Think Free" forums that give a perspective of "money" straight from the horses mouth, as it were, the Bank of England.

http://www.thinkfreeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3797

[Average Joe]

It does not matter what money is or where it comes from, it is just a system of credits and debits anyway.

What i said in my last post is fact, fact and only fact.

You spend money on the credit card, it is somebodys money no matter what, and you owe it.

Now the extortionate interest rates, which they change as and when they feel like, now thats a point well made by esther.

[peacelovinman]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

It does not matter what money is or where it comes from, it is just a system of credits and debits anyway.

What i said in my last post is fact, fact and only fact.

You spend money on the credit card, it is somebodys money no matter what, and you owe it.

Now the extortionate interest rates, which they change as and when they feel like, now thats a point well made by esther.

Yes, this is the game of commerce.

"A deposit created through lending is a debt that has to be paid on demand of the depositor, just the same as the debt arising from a customer's deposit of checks or currency in the bank. Of course they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts." – Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, Modern Money Mechanics, p. 6

So, if you want to keep playing the game and pay back money that they never lent you, go ahead. I've done the same thing, but I'm learning the rules of the game fast.

To quote Mary Croft:

" When we ‘borrow money’ from a bank, which seems to be the only entity from which we can borrow, our signature upon a ‘promise to pay’ is not only what gets us the loan but also what immediately repays the loan. Did the bank lend us money? No. There is no money. It didn’t lend ‘money’, it exchanged the credit we created for bank promissory notes. I watch people’s eyes glaze over when I mention this concept so think of this:

I take my credit card over to Sears and purchase $100 worth of goods. I sign on the line which states, “I agree to pay...” I do agree to pay, just as soon as they can devise a method for me to do this. Since 1933, when the USA declared bankruptcy and who knows when in Canada (since Canada was on and off the gold standard for some time after the uSA fell to the banksters) public policy (in the uSA: HJR 192 of June 5, 1933, and in Canada, Order in Council No. 16, April 10, 1933) has dictated that since there is nothing of
substance with which to pay, the best I can do is promise to pay. All public debt will be discharged by the feds. Those who hold the gold pay the debt. The only way to do this is to sign a note with the number attached to it. It is a promissory note – the same as that which we sign in a bank just before we are told they won’t lend us cash.

I have asked ‘loan officers’ why they won’t just hand over to me the cash which we’ve just agreed I was going to borrow. They say, “I don’t have the cash right here; I’ll give you a cheque which you can take over to the teller and she’ll either deposit it into your account from which you can then withdraw cash, or you can just cash the cheque.” I ask, “If its right over there with the teller, why can’t you go over for me and get the cash?” They then tell me that I have to endorse the cheque they intend to give me. But I signed for cash. I promise to pay $10,000 plus interest for ... $10,000, not a piece of paper with numbers and a date on it. Why isn’t this a straight exchange – note for cash? Because they want two signatures. Keep in mind that every time we sign anything, we are creating credit, rather, bringing forth our unlimited credit, and if for some reason we don’t receive this credit, count on the fact that someone else did – by stealing our exemption. To
boot, we have agreed to it – take a look at the (unilateral and hence, unenforceable) contract, whether it is your driver’s licence or your credit card application. Your exemption is being stolen through your signature. It is
worth a fortune. Time to take control, eh?

Let’s get back to Sears. When I went into the store for the goods and I made payment, in whatever form, what did I get for my payment? No, not the goods; I got a receipt. The direct exchange was signature for
receipt. The goods were already mine; I just came to collect them. So, the merchant is happy because I signed for the goods; i.e.: he exchanged goods for my signature which that day was worth $100, so his accounts are
balanced. He doesn’t see that he exchanged his receipt for my signature. My books are balanced because I exchanged my signature for his receipt, I also happened to get the goods, which were pre-paid. Then, the merchant sends to the bank, my signature along with the hundreds of others which he gathered that day. The bank then transfers funds electronically over to Sears. The bank did not gather up cash (or anything of substance) and send it over to Sears; it transferred to Sears, by the clicking of computer keys (Electronic Funds Transfer), the amount of credit matching, and hence balancing the amount of, the credit slips. I’ll say it again, because it is so stunning: NO MONEY ever left the bank to PAY Sears.

The next thing I know I get a bill from VISA for $100. For what? I’ve already ‘paid’ – at least to the extent of my ability. Public Policy has dictated that this is all I can do. How do you want to ‘pay’ for goods which are already yours? Via working forty hours a week? Or via your signature, thereby giving them your tax exemption?"

[Average Joe]

"If you want to play the game and pay back money that they never lent you"... Come on man.

You get a loan off a bank, its in your account, they lent you it! You owe it! Its money that you never had before you signed the form!

On another note, I'm increasingly disappointed at the "blame culture" that has sprung up in the last 10-20 years, and that blame culture is alive and kicking on this forum.

Its never our fault, always somebody elses. Its the banks fault that some people are drowning in debt, you fall over and cut your knee its somebody elses fault, you over eat and get fat or ill its somebody elses fault. Its never my fault or your fault though is it?

Why can people no longer take responsibility for their own actions? "Oh its not my fault I'm in debt - its the banks fault, and anyways they never really lent me the money in the first place! - so I shouldn't have to pay it back"

Truth be told it makes me sick.

How are we supposed to move forward as a population if nobody can take responsibility for their own actions, if people are looking for immoral ways out of debt and so on? What about other areas that we talk about?

Fact is if the SHTF and we've actually managed to build communities, how likely is it that these communities are full of not highly tuned, loving, giving people, but "Average Joe's" who will take no reponsibilty in the community, blame everybody else in the community when things go wrong, and given half a chance will stab you in the back?

Hell, a lot of us have a looooong way to go in personal development, and dodging agreed debt will set us back.

[Truther21]

well all take our responsibility when they quit screwing everyone. No one has any money to pay it back with cuz the jobs suck and you 2 know it. We all dont work for the CIA. If I have a choice and I do, then the tables are turning. Debt is your game not mine.

Bring back all the jobs oh smart ones, make all this NWO stuff go away.

Peace out

[Truther21]

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by Truther21

well all take our responsibility when they quit screwing everyone.

Course you will. Why don't I believe this?

All I've been saying is that two wrongs don't make a right.

[peacelovinman]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Course you will. Why don't I believe this?

All I've been saying is that two wrongs don't make a right.

You know, I can really empathise with Av Joe's point. No-one forces us to borrow money in excess of our means. However, for most of us it is a necessary evil, particularly where property is concerned. I was taught the principles of living within my means and all the rest that goes along with it but I am prepared to accept that my behaviour and attitudes have been conditioned to a certain extent.

I believe there is much evidence that our monetary system is corrupt and is manipulated by the central banks to achieve social change and profit. There is also ample evidence that our currency is backed by nothing except our own confidence in it's ability to be accepted as a means of exchange.

However, recently much information has been put in the public domain regarding the actual mechanics of money creation. For instance, there is the arguement that all money is actually debt, borrowed into existence by our governments, backed by government bonds which are in turn backed by...what? The resources of a country? The population's labour? Some assert that our birth certificates are floated as bonds...Some assert that the money that accrues from this is put into trust as our share of the national wealth. Governments then borrow against these bonds.

What is the truth?

Does it matter?

The system is clearly corrupt, outdated, unworkable and unsustainable. It is my opinion that these credit card agreements are unenforceable because of what I have said above. Because nothing of value is involved - only movement of debt (money being a debt instrument, not an instrument of value).

If people challenging these agreements hastens the end of the monetary system and gets us all thinking about new ways to order our lives, then I for one shall be glad.

[Mike_Jetson]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

"If you want to play the game and pay back money that they never lent you"... Come on man.

You get a loan off a bank, its in your account, they lent you it! You owe it! Its money that you never had before you signed the form!

On another note, I'm increasingly disappointed at the "blame culture" that has sprung up in the last 10-20 years, and that blame culture is alive and kicking on this forum.
.

How many more times will you miss the point entirely even after more than 2 members have explained to you how it works? Apologies for being so abrupt.

"You get a loan off a bank" - This alone doesnt even happen. Its like me pissng on you and telling you its raining. Or stealing your wife and inviting you to the engagement party. Read Mary Croft! and my post above

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by Mike_Jetson

How many more times will you miss the point entirely even after more than 2 members have explained to you how it works? Apologies for being so abrupt.

"You get a loan off a bank" - This alone doesnt even happen. Its like me pissng on you and telling you its raining. Or stealing your wife and inviting you to the engagement party. Read Mary Croft! and my post above

Apologies for being even blunter, but how many times will you miss my point? We could do this all day. Actually no we couldn't, because I give up.

So, £650 or £1,250 of your hard earned to cancel your debts eh? And can you guarantee to get out of ALL debts? I bet you can't.

£650 or £1,250 you have to pay for the privelidge of ripping your creditors off?

Splendid.

I'm done here.

[Mike_Jetson]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Apologies for being even blunter, but how many times will you miss my point? We could do this all day. Actually no we couldn't, because I give up.

So, £650 or £1,250 of your hard earned to cancel your debts eh? And can you guarantee to get out of ALL debts? I bet you can't.

£650 or £1,250 you have to pay for the privelidge of ripping your creditors off?

Splendid.

I'm done here.

Ha hell no. You still believe they are loosing something dont you?

Like I said, in no way at all is our club a debt cancellation service. Its a flow blown financial education programme and then some. Millionaires dont even have a clue about half of what we teach.

In fact just to prove a point id be happy to spend time writing letters backwards and forwards for you just to show you how the banks are acting outside of the law and how we act inside of the law when challenging them.

I know we cant do this as you have no debt. Im not selling anything, it just so happens that I saw this thread and dont like seeing people advertise themselves for getting rid of 70 percent of folks debt because of legal 'loopholes' and errors in the agreement etc. Its just not what we do. We go much deeper and ethics and honesty are too important for us.

Oh and in this world there are no guarantees and I make no promises but if one of own friends or family get into financial trouble and are pretty guaranteed to default then I will help them out with what I know. Corruption is everywhere as you know. The judges are involved too but they cant bend their own rules too much or else they get exposed so we have to bery careful when we play their game.

[peacelovinman]

Originally Posted by Average Joe

Apologies for being even blunter, but how many times will you miss my point? We could do this all day. Actually no we couldn't, because I give up.

So, £650 or £1,250 of your hard earned to cancel your debts eh? And can you guarantee to get out of ALL debts? I bet you can't.

£650 or £1,250 you have to pay for the privelidge of ripping your creditors off?

Splendid.

I'm done here.

They are not your creditors, that is the point. They cannot show you the accounting to that effect, that is the point. You are making no effort to research the matter fully, simply relying on what you think to be true.

This is what keeps the human race in bondage, a complete inability to challenge established thought patterns and ways of doing things. I am reminded of the Wright Brothers and the fact nobody would take them seriously when they said they had built a flying machine; nobody would even take a look for years. After all, nothing heavier than air would fly, or so they thought at the time...

[Mike_Jetson]

edit - Im just reading all the other posts after the ones quoted below. If i did i wouldnt have had to write so much as others have started explaining it a bit too, with links

Im going to enjoy this post as I will be sharing information that is not easy to come across. Firstly, baggywrinkle and Avg joe, and anyone who is still arguing about energy and what not, I will not be explaining this again as if you read my words correctly in this read you would understand by now. I will edit the people im quoting to highlight the most important points i agree with.

Originally Posted by peacelovinman

Some years ago I managed to get myself out of all personal debt

3) Because I DETEST the immoral banking system.

This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.

I suggest you read "Spiritual Economics: How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known To Man" by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. You can download it for free from various places on the net.

If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature.

Lastly, a question for Mike. I quite like the sound of the Liberty Wealth Club but I have fallen victim to some of these network marketing scams before.

Does the club offer something of real value or does it just teach people a "system" whereby you get paid for recruiting people into the system?

Does it provide worthwhile financial information to their members in return for a fee, with those members that recommend others to join being paid a small commission or residual on their subscription (nothing wrong with that in my book)...

or...

Do they simply show you how to make money by recruiting people into the system who, in order to make money, have to recruit others with no actual worthwhile service or product being offered (a con, in my book)?

Excellent questions. Firstly, Mary Croft. This is almost mandatory reading for LWC members. This is exactly what we are about and we are active in practicing what she preaches. If anyone wants a copy emailing just ask me. I have a new version which has all the same info but has been organised in a much better way to get through quicker. Its just better

Pyramid schemes, also known as cash gifting schemes only make people money by recruiting others into it, there is no other way of explaining it, this is why they are ILLEGAL. Anyone watching Watchdog in the UK last night would have seen ex-Apprentice girl (black girl cant remember her name) getting lynched by the BBC for holding a 'networking meeting' of ladies where they pay £1000 to join and advance up alevel when they have recruited 8 themselves before paying £3000 to the next level. There is no product, people at the bottom who fail to get anyone involved will have lost their £1000 and have nothing whatsoever to show for it. Pyramid schemes use the positive side of multi level marketing and network marketing to make the ambitious folk a lot of money while people who cant lie have trouble promoting it. Ive seen many before and am thankful ive never lost out to any before.

This is also why we get this question a lot because people are wary of anything that rewards you for getting more people involved.

We at Liberty Wealth put honesty, integrity, truth and freedom before everything else. We never ever sell anything. We simple show folk what is available and wait for them to say they are in. Put it this way. At the very first step, we have a package known as Foundation of Freedom, its an investment of £650. We can easily give this information away for free (as helping people help themselves is our 'goal' and becoming service to others is the ultimate reward) but you need an incentive to put our knowledge into practice rather than having it sitting on a shelf while you are a slave to monthly pay day. To non members this is £1250. Its obvious that joining the club at the same time as investing in the package is better than investing twice as much without joining.

Here is part of what the Foundations of Freedom is about (more but i cant remember whilsy typing):-

* Credit Cancellation & Remedy
* Building Blocks of Freedom
* Our Economic Heritage
* Conditioning of Man & The World
* The Gold Standard
* Asset Protection
* Offshore Havens
* Government & Economic History
* Law & Taxes
* Present Day Strategies
* Future Seminars - What to Expect

Initially its amazing and just gets better. Cash gifting/pyramid schemes simply dont have worthwhile products. We dont even ask that people recruit others. Some of our members make the initial investment and are gone forever or maybe go to a seminar for advanced teaching then go off and make their own money outside the club, or spend months studying our material and researching related stuff on their own before deciding to make money from helping more folk get free. Usually the ones that have cancelled their unsecured credit are keen to spread the word. Put it this way, without real worth, youd be reluctant to get friends and family involved because if its false promises then youve lost more than their trust. I have trouble keeping this in when I meet new people. I try so hard but when people say "so what do you do" I can only pretend that Im a property developer for so long. Probably because im barely spending any time with renovation right now.

You can study the main site. My splash page is now online at
http://www.freedomandwealth.co.uk You can enter your email for regular info and free products such as Marys book etc. My tel numbers, skype etc are all on there and Im happy to answer questions any time.

But going back to original thread idea. This is different to us. We dont exploit legal loopholes. We simply expose where real laws have been broken by banks for many years and use the power of the law to play their game.

Originally Posted by Baggywrinkle

But that does not address the exchange of energy
No one wants to talk about that aspect
It took labor and materials to build that television. You need to come up with an equivalent amount of energy or goods to compensate the builders for their effort. Or you need to build your own television.

This is how 'the system' works. Its actually how a secured credit facility works. You deposit an asset and the bank agrees to give it value and gives you 'money'. Your asset doesnt have to be what we call 'cash' You could pay in a gold watch for example. When you the 'money' back you get your assset back.

Fast forward to banking fraud. Your application form with signature (loan or card) is then stamped on the reverse with a value. Just like a note would be stamped and attached to your gold watch with the amount of 'money' of value attached to it. Instead of the gold watch which has value, the bank use your 'promise to pay' which is in fact the application form and assign a value to this. This value could be any number. They usually decide on a value based on risk of you not paying. The risk is not their risk of losing money. The risk is the risk of you simply not being able to pay your alleged 'debt'.

Now that your application has been converted into an asset, this asset is paid into a deposit account. When you buy something in a store, the retailer keeps the receipt (bill of exchange / promise to pay). This is then paid into a bank minus a fee and the retailer gets 'money' so this widescreen TV you talk about has been paid for. Energy allocated. The bank sells the bill to Visa/Mcard minus a small fee and Visa/Mcard sell it back to your credit card company/bank minus a small fee. So in effect, your asset has been exchanged for goods but a few banks have acted as middlemen along the way making money from it.

Best bit. You get a statement in the post asking you for the full value. You pay for the item again, plus any interest if you dont pay immediately.

Ask yourself, why do credit cards have no fee any more and good payers are seen to use the service for free and cost the bank money? Its not because they are hoping you suddenly stop paying or are making too much money from non fast payers to care. They are making money from every single transaction.

Imagine if you started making fake money, youd be in jail if caught. This is why the law can work for us because it has been broken by them. It just takes time and some studying and thankfully having a lot of people on hand with the same goal helps.

Im done

Regarding using the law to your benefit.

Credit cards have three income streams.

They get paid at the point of purchase by the vendor
They make money from the various fees.
They make money from interest on outstanding balances.

We have eliminated the second two streams for over a year now by taking advantage of the grace period. In effect, we cut ourselves an interest free loan which we use to earn interest in our HELOC. We purchase EVERYTHING on credit card. I have not carried cash in years. The money needed to pay off the balance at the end of the grace period remains in the HELOC (or in an interest bearing checking account) until the last possible day before default. We are using the HELOC to pay off our mortgage. By leaving the credit card money in the HELOC we earn "negative interest" that we will not have to pay at a rate currently of five percent. When we started it was eight percent. Payments are done electronically to allow the money to work for us until the last possible moment. Since our HELOC and our credit cards are with the same bank that is the date due.
Transfers in house take one day.

The electronic transfer is also important out of house. By law it must occur in the U.S within three days. This circumvents the hold used by banks to to make interest on your payment while it "clears" the bank.

A last way to use their own regulations against them is the rewards card. Cash rewards using this system build up. My son makes 900 dollars extra by doing business in this way. He has a second card that collects travel points, using it for one or two free trips every year.

That is too fancy for my blood. We are totally focused on being mortgage free in seven years or less shaving twenty three years off a thirty year mortgage and saving over seventy thousand fiat dollars in interest not paid.

[Mike_Jetson]

Originally Posted by Baggywrinkle

Regarding using the law to your benefit.

Credit cards have three income streams.

They get paid at the point of purchase by the vendor
They make money from the various fees.
They make money from interest on outstanding balances.

We have eliminated the second two streams for over a year now by taking advantage of the grace period. In effect, we cut ourselves an interest free loan which we use to earn interest in our HELOC. We purchase EVERYTHING on credit card. I have not carried cash in years. The money needed to pay off the balance at the end of the grace period remains in the HELOC (or in an interest bearing checking account) until the last possible day before default. We are using the HELOC to pay off our mortgage. By leaving the credit card money in the HELOC we earn "negative interest" that we will not have to pay at a rate currently of five percent. When we started it was eight percent. Payments are done electronically to allow the money to work for us until the last possible moment. Since our HELOC and our credit cards are with the same bank that is the date due.
Transfers in house take one day.

The electronic transfer is also important out of house. By law it must occur in the U.S within three days. This circumvents the hold used by banks to to make interest on your payment while it "clears" the bank.

A last way to use their own regulations against them is the rewards card. Cash rewards using this system build up. My son makes 900 dollars extra by doing business in this way. He has a second card that collects travel points, using it for one or two free trips every year.

That is too fancy for my blood. We are totally focused on being mortgage free in seven years or less shaving twenty three years off a thirty year mortgage and saving over seventy thousand fiat dollars in interest not paid.

Exactly

But if you think those 3 income streams are the only ones you simply have not seen the one they hold on to in the back room

To believe a blood sucking evil bank would let folk take money away from them in way of cashback and rewards is naive. But most people who work this system believe. I did until I learned the truth.

We have a lender or two over here in the UK that lets you reduce your mortgage interest and amount oweing with cash you have with them saved and deposited. Your HELOC is almost the same as our 'One account'