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11-12-2008, 09:46 AM
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#1 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Atropsyche,
I wholeheartedly agree with you, both of your posts, and I 'get' exactly where you are coming from. Thank you for your post. it is like a breath of fresh air and connected straight to my heart/soul ! Why? well.. whilst I feel it is positive, and to some extent important, that people (west or East or South or North) have an awareness of some of the issues on this forum, I also feel that there is sadly also a lot of hypothetical navel-gazing, self-serving/self-preservationism .. and a sometimes strong air of some kind of 'spiritual hierarchy' to be fair... and a whiole heap of what I'll call "insular thinking & behaviour" ... (no, NOT all on here, but definitely amongst a fair few folks/mods) ... in spite of what some folks have posted in this thread, if you stand outside this forum and look in here objectively, there definitely IS an core element of Elitism within this forum itself (e.g. some of the comments/tone/approach taken made by some members/mods in the past few weeks - some of which is extremely elitist... and also at times very rude and dismissive of others... a major part of why I left this forum as a member last week.. but that's a whole other story which I don't have the energy or time to start getting into!). I tried to convey ideas very similar to your points, Astropsyche, in a few of my previous posts (under my previous name of Worlds Beyond), as I felt that hwilst some are in here ego-fighting, point-scoring and on some kind of spiritual or intellectual "superiority trip", there are 28 kids dying every minute of every day from starvation alone on this planet. Yet so many in here speak of "we are all one" and "we are all connected" and "enlightenment" and "awareness" , Karma, positivity, etc... etc... It made no sense at all to me.. as there seemed to be very few who were actually LIVING the talk, or actually DOING things to help others.. here and now.... the ones in REAL need in the here and now.. the ones we ARE connected to, and also collectively repswonible for... surely this is one of the MAJOR components of being Spiritual/Enlightened/Awake/Aware... the realisation that everything/everyone is connected and everything has a consequence? For example, I posted that I'd rather spend £5 per month on helping a child to eat/survive in the here and now, than pay for a subscription to read about how to stock up my pantry for some possible future date... a point that seemed to elicit a deafening silence, apart from one comment that the suffering of this world are in that position due to "their Karma" and we "should do nothing about it" (excuse me for not recalling exact words)... I was deeply saddened and also quite shocked by some of the attitudes, arrogance, dismissiveness of quite a few (NOT all!) on Avalon forum.. When I first found Avalon, I was SO excited and full of hope and positive feelings about this forum.... I came here with nothing but peace, love, light and my experiences, ideas, caring heart.. was open to learning and ready for sharing my own journey/learnings... thinking (naively perhaps?) that this was a place were people came together to try to create a better place/improvement for people... for humanity ... in the face of all the control/darkness in this world etc ... I stayed a couple of weeks then I left.... I felt the tone, level of communication/co-operation and awareness of a reasonable number here (mods as well as members) was sadly and surprisingly lacking.. lacking in the VERY spiritual awareness, enlightenment, freedoms, purpose, truth/honesty and sense of basic care/respect for other members of humanity (whether in Africa or USA or Middle East or nextdoor!) that this forum was all about! A day later I re-signed up here, only because I was absolutely appalled that my last post on here elicited such a rude, arrogant and totally dismissive response from a mod. I was then equally appalled and disgusted that my (non-contentious) reply was immediately deleted by another mod, AFTER having first deleted my account here (giving me no way to respond!), then his publically posted explanation made it all appear a VERY different way entirely to the facts that happened! However, I took some time out and reaslied there was little point continuing to try and get that little matter sorted out, as whatever I had to say would probably be censored/deleted/misrepresented or whatever.. I realised that my voice meant nothing here.. am just an ordinary humble soul with no PA/PC credentials or connections... and I didn't want to get into ANY confilct or battle just to get my voice heard fairly.... so i left it alone. However, I have come back today.. just to state that I think and feel your post is one of the most sane, spiritually "on-track" and positive I have seen on this forum... Spirituality and Preparedness and Awareness is more about what we all do in the NOW, for OTHER people on this planet, as opposed what we're doing to self-serve or self-preserve in the 'tomorrows' of our lives.. Whilst I think there are some truly enlightened souls lurking around this forum, there are plenty who seem to be missing the point entirely... in my humble opinion.. Which is more spiritually enlightened/valuable to this planet or humanity.... Having 100 cans of beans and a publically posted shopping list of survival items? Figuring out what is going to happen in 2012 or tomorrow or 3,100? Or making a regular/real contribution (not necessarily financial! there's PLENTY of other ways.. volunteering, campaigning, raising awareness etc etc etc) to others who have not even got the basics for life, let alone the privileges that many on here do? Spirituality is not about knowing some ancient texts, or knowing any jargon, or the latest "guru" or meme or whatever, it is the simple, basic, everyday actions, carried out in humility and grace, for others. I've known some 'down and outs', some "weeds", some 'nobody's' of this world to be more spiritually aware /evolved /enlightened /good hearted /well-intentioned/true & honest, than I have some (SOME, not ALL!) of the people I've come across in here (and other supposedly "awake" places)... I realise this post will possibly be deleted (as I have mentioned a previous Mod incident which made me feel very uncomfortable/unfairly censored) or gain some less-than open-minded listening from many members ... but I truly have not come in here to have ANY conflict... I just wanted to add my voice to what I feel is a very sane, intelligent (in the true sense) and TRULY spiritually aware post.... Spirituality/Enlightenment is not just some airy-fairy, hugging-the-flowers, saying "namaste" every 2 minutes, nor is it about meditation or religion or channeling or crytals or whatever else you use as a route to try and access/evoleve our souls/learning/understanding.... ... Spirituality and awareness is about REAL Values, REAL connectedness to one another, REAL love/care/respect for ALL, REAL actions, REAL consequences... REAL Humility.. and REAL Grace... every day.. To help those we know is one thing , to help those who we do not know, and have NO way of ever 'repaying' us... THAT is giving! 'What I give to others, I gain. What I keep for myself, I have already lost.' Peace and Light 
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11-12-2008, 10:06 AM
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#2 | |
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Project Avalon Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northeastern Brazil
Posts: 1,259
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Hi Worlds Beyond 2,
I will need a little time to reply to the content of your post. However, rest assured that this post, left to me, will not be deleted nor edited. The logic and well argumented manner of the post merits its' permanence, even if others may not agree. The way this post was presented is very different to some rather terse posts that had to be moderated. We must understand, that even though others may not agree we still deserve respect. As Winston Churchill said once to a member of the opposition who had a different opinion than him, "I am you opponent, not your enemy". Best regards, Steve Quote:
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11-12-2008, 10:50 AM
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#3 | |
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Quote:
thanks for that. Though I am rather confused concerned by the some of what you said.. quoted above. I don't recall EVER posting anything in Avalon which was disrespectful or "terse" to anyone, mod or member...  I do recall receiving a clearly rude and dismissive reply (posted publically) from a mod here, to a post I made about feeling uncomfortable and thinking about leaving.. and my reply to the mod concerned included that "I AM NOT STUPID". Yes, I used CAPS.. I was upset and felt very demeaned/dismissed by how the mod spoke to me... but I was trying to point out as peacefully as possible that the mod spoke to me in a way which exactly reflected the point I was originally making.. about how some mods/members (not all) speak to others in less than respectful/peaceful/well-intentioned ways in here! But it seems I was suddenly (and unexpectedly) silenced.  Truth is, I was really upset and rather shocked by the mod's post to me... as I have never come in here to have any battles, and am a very gentle/peaceful soul without any battling bones in my body (I think the very nature of my illness proves that! lol), and it takes me an enourmous amount of physical effort and energy to post in here... due to physical disability/illness. Anyway, I really do not wish to enter into any argument or discussion about what is past. I just wanted to say that I felt very uncomfortable and felt unfairly and abruptly censored for questioning how a mod spoke to me and trying to 'stand up' for myself a bit to what wasn't a very nice post. Simple as that. I wish everyone peace.. and really wish everyone could get over themselves/their personal 'issues/agendas' enough to see the BIG picture sometimes. We are all learning.. and ALL teaching each other. Just seems some tend to be more open to actually listening to others' viewpoints more than others I guess! And we are all at differing levels of awareness/understanding and at different points on our paths. A little more tolerance of each other's views/beliefs and levels of awareness/intellect might not go amiss in here. Anyway, I really don't wish to dwell on this anymore...(even though I seem to be writing quite a bit about it! oops! My apologies!)... there's really too much/more important things to do with the short time I (and all of us to some extent or other!) have left... I just wanted to say that Astropsyche's post was truly one that shines out on this forum ... whatever your/our views and beliefs.. perhaps some members could try to be a little less defensive about it.. (and less defensive generally when reading other people's messages/thoughts/views).. and take some time out to really think about Astropysche's (or other people's) words/messages... as it certainly rings of some TRUTHS ....! If we (collectively and individually) cannot act to help the souls who are here with us on the planet now, some of whom suffer largely as a long term/direct/indirect result of our greed, materialism, selfishness etc, then how can we (collectively and individually) expect to evolve or be truly 'enlightened' at all? As they say.. "Actions speak louder than words!".. it is true! (... but remember.. our words are very powerful.. and can harm/hurt/divide/darken, as much as they can help/heal/harmonise/enlighten... so choose your words wisely!) Peaceful Blessings to all (p.s. to the mod who offended/dismissed me last week.. yes, you did come across as very rude and dismissive.. and it did upset/hurt me. I found it very difficult to then read your subsequent posts about me, with no way of replying... but it is in the past.. and I hold no ill feeling toward you... ..but please.. I just ask you this.. for the sake of yourself and others... maybe look at trying to be a little less assumptive/pre-judging with people in future.. and think about how your words come across to readers/members??? Oh and hey.. just for the record.. 'Worlds Beyond' is a woman, not a man! lol ) ;-) Peace & Light |
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11-12-2008, 11:15 AM
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#4 |
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Project Avalon Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northeastern Brazil
Posts: 1,259
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Hi Worlds Beyond 2 II,
I understand your opinions about the human side of the way the forum is being used. As in any place where groups meet, be it in the work place, group meeting, Mothers Union, church, anything, you will always get people jostling for social position, for whatever reason. So the 'social' or 'human behaviour' aspect of the forum I think is normal. What we all need to do is understand and be more tolerant (as best we can). It's important that we come together, however, we all are still in a learning curve, we are all still trying to understand each other, and this is perfectly natural as we all have our differences and due to the number of ideas and people who take part in this site, each one wanting to be heard, needing to be understood, many using English as a second language, so many different ideals, cultures, thoughts, opinions.... the list is endless. As for the one comment that the suffering of this world are in that position due to "their Karma" and we "should do nothing about it" I am also deeply saddened and also shocked by the attitude, arrogance, dismissiveness of the poster of that message. Not ecause of the context of the message, as I do not know the reality of the person who posted, but by the abruptness of the post. Even it being a very noble cause, the object of the forum is not to help starving children in Africa. It is: • To provide important information and resources to enable individuals and communities to function optimally in what may be troubled times ahead. • To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish. The philosophy of the forum is: • As stated by George Green in the Project Camelot interview Messages for the Ground Crew, there exist individuals and groups, all over the world, who have an important responsibility and role to play in the preservation of civilization regardless which scenarios may play out. • These possible scenarios - which include planned financial collapse, war, and population reduction by covert means - can be prevented and changed by the united intention of many concerned individuals. Many of us are working to prepare and awaken others. We know that our efforts to create a new tomorrow will not be in vain. We acknowledge the Ground Crew all over the globe - including (we are confident) ethical and principled individuals within military and intelligence circles worldwide. • We believe it's prudent to make contingency plans. This site is created to help you do that. With that in mind, everybody can move forward in a more focussed manner, trying to keep within the parameters of the forum. So let's get on with being a little more tolerant (as best we can), understanding, compassionate and most important respectful to each ones' differences. Best regards, Steve |
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11-12-2008, 11:25 AM
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#5 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Well Astropsyche had to reply and I haven't read all the posts because I work on the computer and go back and forth to the forum. To the poster stating that people in bad situations deserve it because of karma, you obviously have only studied some parts of philosophy but not all of it, because if you had you would have found out that no matter what situation people find themselves in, as spiritual beings we are all one and should be helping. I donate every month to various charities (not because I can overly afford it) that is why I still work but because I feel the need to. My health suffers quite a bit with different things, so I cannot volunteer to go over and do physical stuff but if I could I would.
Oh and by the way astropsyche I have personally posted on the forum about how I will be going about my business not worrying about what is going to happen or not going to happen tomorrow, the next day, next month or next year, because as I have said before on the forum if I pass on today, tomorrow or whenever then it is my time to go and that is it. You see I believe no matter how hard you try to stay, in survival mode or not, it is not actually up to us whether we stay here or not. I am far from an elitist for having the darn internet. It does not cost that much you know and I have worked for 40 years now. |
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11-12-2008, 11:44 AM
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#6 | ||||
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: england
Posts: 254
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
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I find 'charges' of elitism made on this forum very divisive. Quote:
Quote:
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11-12-2008, 11:16 PM
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#7 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 112
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Quote:
http://www.rense.com/general84/white.htm Western guilt is next. |
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11-12-2008, 11:54 PM
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#8 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: California
Posts: 144
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Offering my perspective here as someone that often is viewed as an 'elitist'. I view this forum as a tool in which those that come here may use it to explore, expand and perhaps pivot within their personal beliefs. Everyone is coming from a unique perspective of individualized consciouness and perhaps are learning how to blend to their higher-selves. In this process, some group together in resonation on topics others have opposing views. This is as it should be, and is normal in a public forum and exchange.
In my experience, the more one explores the topics of creation, spirituality, paranormal phenomenon, conspiracy, quantum theories, time/space, world order, the multiverse, history and language - you reach a point of clear understanding of your own personal truth and along the way have fine-tuned a dogma-free discernment filter. So when you are at this point and are living in your truth, it's nice to attract and find others that have arrived at that place - where openess, singularity and multi-dimensional perspectives are blended. I think this is where others on "the path" to this place will label us as 'elitism' - it's an ego-projection. Not a criticism, just an observation. What we have just been through in the past 12 months of linear-perception time, is the equivalent of compressed decades of consciouness expansion - and many more are arriving at that place. I think of this forum, and others, as tools that some may use in the process. |
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11-12-2008, 12:47 PM
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#9 | |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Quote:
Hi again Steve, I understand the purpose of Avalon isn't about supplying 'charity to Africa' .. I've mentioned such issues in a couple of posts, along with other examples of human suffering, as examples to highlight something I'm trying to express/share as being my understanding of some things which need to be done to reach the ultimate goal / ascension / survival of humanity/light against the Powers/dark ... so I do think issues such as this ARE part of the overall picture, and feel they are essential to our evolution (spiritual, physical etc) and not just some "noble" or 'do-gooder' cause.. ... I've never raised these issues to act as some kind of 'undercover Charity Fundraiser' or to be "noble" (heaven knows I ain't!) ..... but because I feel they ARE part of the picture in which we all play a part... and are part of the possibe solution! for me, the life/welfare/'equality of value' of every person/living soul on this planet is an essential part of our individual and global progression/ survival/ evolution/ responsiblity/ spiritual growth... and is exactly what the whole premise of spirituality/connectedness/survival of Earth/Humanity/Freedom is all about! I guess to each of us, our own ideas of what is a "community" and "helping each other" is different. For me, personally, I see "community" or "civilization" as being the whole of humanity, the entire population of earth.. whether USA, Europe, Australasia, Africa, Asia... we are all connected and responsible somehow, for what happens here and now, as well as in the future... Steve, with respect, I do understand what Avalon is for. That's why I came here.. as I felt it was the only place I could freely discuss the issues that I'm interested in, and also been having some personal experiences in, and I wanted to learn and to share! "To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish"... that's exactly why i came here... especially the word "SUPPORT".. as I wanted to feel 'safe' in chatting to like minded people.. maybe to get together/do things.. ... to try and "preserve civilisation" (humanity) and try to create a free, just, honest and evolved world for all.. now as well as the future! But perhaps my understanding of the range of options available/ways we can all achieve the overall/ultimate aim of Avalon is not quite the same as the majority on here?? Like I said, for me, "To support aware individuals in networking and forming groups as they wish" and to "preserve civilisation" are big part of the reason I came here.. to find other like-minded people to join up with/chat/try to progress some change on planet Earth.. to feel SAFE chatting about ideas and solutions etc.. maybe my ideas of forming groups/helping others/community/evolving/getting through the darkness is more a global perspective/understanding/aim than for some here? I don' know really. For me, George Green's "an important responsibility and role to play in the preservation of civilization" doesn't mean saving my own skin in the future... but means doing whatever small act I can to help ensure the survival of my fellow human-beings here and now and to create a better world for the people who will be here long after I am gone! Perhaps, to me personally, I feel that taking action to help others in the here and now (be it nextdoor of Africa or wherever, be it giving financially, or in matters of emtional/physical/spiritual support/help/guidance) is just as imoprtant (actually, for me, MORE important) than making preparations to ensure my own personal survival through whatever the upcoming events might be! I do understand the purpose and aims of Avalon.. just maybe I have a slightly different take on how/when to go about it.. the approach that seems to make most sense/spiritual truth for me personally.. or something?? This is why I feel a little more tolerance/open-listening of others' views is vital, and a little more openess and perhaps less rigid control/censorship (obviously not allowing abuse etc!) is of BENEFIT to Avalon... we all have to try to remain truly OPEN to listening to and considering/evaluating new ideas/perspectives/understandings (even if we don't agree with them!), otherwise we become as closed, rigid, insular and projecting an attitude of "we're in the right" as the very Systems/Powers that have been trying to keep us asleep for so long! I'm not sure I'm expressing myself very well... So, I shall end now.. otherwise I'm just repeating myself which helps nobody! I aplogise for my long-winded posts... I do find it hard to express myself sometimes, as apart from being heavily medicated, in pain and so on, which all which makes my brain/thinking foggy at times, I also am constantly realising inside myself so many different threads/connections/layers of understanding and awareness about the whole big picture of what we're here for.. on Earth.. as well as in Avalon (maybe?!).... My physical brain and body might be slow and falling apart, but my mind and consciousness/awareness seem to be getting more and more speeded up recent years.. !! Peacuful Blessings
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11-12-2008, 01:25 PM
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#10 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: CT, MA, RI
Posts: 127
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
I'll Put It In A Picture To Help The Words To Clarity!
 Once each of us decides personally to step out of the wheel of commerce and politics and religion and control we will be helping the "whole" world come back around to self-responsibility of self-sufficiency for there is NO limit and there is NO lack except that which has been created by each of us treading a wheel in the illusion that each of us helps create by treading the wheel. If each of Us personally decide to jump from the wheel of illusion that is stealing our energy...our very own energy will help energize the world-wide energy of limitlessness and bounty for EVERYONE...one person at a time! THAT is what this site is about and why MOST of us are here! And THAT is what IS happening in the now, entrainment is taking hold! You cannot be an elitist when You look eye to eye and honor all in front of You...and that is what the people in my life do with and by self-responsibility and choice. And we are both on Mother Earth...Astropsyche! As each one of us steps from the wheel of distraction with loving consciousness... that consciousness will see to it that one more person in the world will NOT go without! |
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11-12-2008, 01:40 PM
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#11 |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 66
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
WOW Eaglespirit...well said. I agree; until we totally turn our back on the current paradigm, and live simply and sustainably in a group of our choice, we are part of the problem.
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11-12-2008, 04:23 PM
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#12 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Good point Eaglespirit,
Here is something else to consider asto: the radiant/safe zones that are emerging may be self-contained and self-sufficient, but they are by no means seperatist. Seperatism would smack of elitism, but, while they wait for whatever cataclysm they are waiting for, they are interacting with local folks, hitting the flea markets and grocery stores, using the same parks, playing the same recreational sports, working in the same offices, etc. There is nothing about the safe/radiant zone philosophy that would serve to alienate individuals on a compound, like many of the religious and militia like settlements that dot the landscape. The whole safe/radiant zone philosophy is such that it is imperitive that they reach out to others around them, so that locals know that there is a safe place that welcomes them when the SHTF. If you are building a radiant/safe zone, and are not making preparations for a massive influx of people seeking safety, you might be missing the point. Another point about the so-called "third world." I tend to agree with eXchanger to a certain degree. In many ways, they are the truly free ones. While it may be a hardscrabble existence in many respects, living in a country that has no fossil fuels or other internationally demanded natural resources reduces the possibility that the great clash between Eastern and Western greed will be fought in their backyard. It seems to me that they don't really need to contemplate these issues, since they will not have to confront them. With that being said, the horrors of colonialism and post-colonialism should never be forgotten, and there are still many problems that they must confront. And, I think it might be a tad ethnocentric to assume that the people of say, the Congo, are not discussing the very philosophies of freedom, fairness, hope, and health that we are here - they are just doing it face to face. Intellectual discussion is not elitism - to not allow our brains to wo/ander about such things is to languish precisely according to plan. |
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11-13-2008, 12:07 AM
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#13 | |
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Avalon Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 53
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
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11-13-2008, 12:12 AM
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#14 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Is this Forum elitist?
Oh, geez, you made a judgemental statement about all of us on here and because some of us got upset your packing up your bat and ball, don't go I love you too and your contributions. It is just if you knew what has happened to me during my life you would definitely not put me in the elitist category.
And I am sure others on the forum have'nt had it easy at times as well. We didn't ask to be where we are now, we were advised and then made the decision, or so a stream of philosophy goes, and talking about philosophy you of all people should know about that. 
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