Community Project

[Kre8ive Lady]

Originally Posted by asteram

Interesting so far. Although the "suggested community agreement" that I posted for discussion was dismissed immediately, just about every well-thought-out post on this thread has been about one or another item on that agreement.

If, as you say, nearly every well thought-out post on this thread has been about an item of your proposed agreement, then how can you say it was dismissed?

Speaking for myself, I have no problem with guidelines that I agree to, and I'm not too sure that I want to try starting a community with someone who is unwilling to commit to any agreements.

Did I miss the post where someone invited you to a community in which NO ONE was willing to commit to ANY agreements?

Lets look at the "little hitler" thing:

a. No psychopaths allowed. No one with a desire for power or control over others may ever be in a position of authority.

How do you propose weeding them out before it becomes a problem? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it?

It is often the power itself that brings out the worst in some people. A valuable lesson to be learned from many “stories”, Lord of the Rings comes to mind.

Any objections?

Here's another area of concern:

a. Coercion is not allowed or tolerated, nor is freeloading or taking advantage of others.

Once again, how do you propose weeding out these “trouble Makers” before it becomes a problem? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it?

Workable or not? Who votes for allowing coercion and freeloading as their right?

Do you honestly believe that other communities, (that have these problems) actually voted in favor of allowing freeloading and taking advantage of others?

How about land ownership?

1. Each family or resident has their own space that they own free and clear. Once vested they cannot lose their space. There are no taxes to be paid or other obligations to be met to retain ownership of this space.

Try not paying your taxes and see just how long the government allows you to keep that land. When you say “no other obligations to be met”, will you please clarify what you mean by this?

What happens when someone in the community decides that it is just not working for them, and they want to move on? Are they “allowed” to sell their piece of land and all of the improvements on it to anyone they choose? If not, what kind of “approval process” will be put in place to determine who the “new people” are that will become part of the community? How will that process affect someone who wants to move on? To what extent will they get back all that they invested? What about new members? What “visitor process” will be implemented? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it? Where will the visitors stay while you determine whether or not you “approve” of them? How will they earn a living? How long should the visiting process be?

Community focus?

2. The community has a common economic focus, i.e. the goods/services produced for sale or trade are those that the members are interested in producing. (Example: The economic focus of this community will be decorative arts and crafts and growing flowers and ornamental plants.)

To ask a clarifying question, do you mean that everyone involved in the community needs to agree upon one specific area of financial earnings? If everyone involved in the community has the same area of knowledge and interest, how will there be enough diversity for the community to be “self-sustaining”? Who gets the money earned from this common economic focus? How will it be distributed? Who will distribute it? How do you ensure it is fair? Would a single person with no children earn the same as a family with five children?

Are any of these ideas workable? Are they of any value?

Yes, you have some great ideas! To go along with those great ideas, a method of implementation is needed in order to make them work. Our constitution is also filled with great ideas. The reality of how that turned out is becoming more and more apparent even to those who have been “asleep.”

This is not meant to be pie in the sky, nor is it meant to be something that must wait for the collapse of the economy, government, and civilization in order to begin or to succeed.

I agree with you.

The idea is to discuss a setup that appeals to and is agreeable to those who agree to it. Not to everyone in the whole world. Not to be enforced on those who don't want to play. If there were fifty separate communities each with the agreements that appealed to them, could you find one that you might fit into or even be eager to be a part of?

Absolutely!

Sjkted made some very good points! And, the example he gave, even though he thinks it was a silly example, was a very good one. Those are exactly the types of problems that do arise that divide a community. And, if it divides the community, it no longer seems quite so silly.

[sjkted]

I wonder if the situation would be more favorable if we were all to just stake out some land in a South American country that supported the concept. Any takers?

--sjkted

[AscendingStarseed]

Originally Posted by sjkted

I wonder if the situation would be more favorable if we were all to just stake out some land in a South American country that supported the concept. Any takers?

--sjkted

Used to think the same thing, but lately I'm not to sure how safe I would feel down there and wouldn't be surprised to see war breaking out there once everything blows up and the PTB get their WWIII. Go to http://globalresearch.ca and read all the articles about military build up in the various countries in South America.

I'm taking a very serious look at Kauai, Hawaii. The cost of living there isn't as high as on Maui or Oahu, and you can get some decent places to live for less than here in Los Angeles. It's absolutely beautiful there and has a spiritual vibe like no where else I've been before. It's also about the closest thing you can get to moving out of the US, it has a foreign or international feel and you don't need a passport.

You can garden year round and if there are ever food shortages you can just go into the jungle and live on fruit and catch seafood. It's also"off the grid" so to speak.

Kauai is the most magical place I've ever been to and when I left it was with a tear in my eye promising myself to return, so maybe now is the time. There are intentional communities forming all over the islands...or if there is any one on PA who likes this idea and would like to join me on the islands please speak up or PM me

[sjkted]

Originally Posted by AscendingStarseed

Used to think the same thing, but lately I'm not to sure how safe I would feel down there and wouldn't be surprised to see war breaking out there once everything blows up and the PTB get their WWIII. Go to http://globalresearch.ca and read all the articles about military build up in the various countries in South America.

I'm taking a very serious look at Kauai, Hawaii. The cost of living there isn't as high as on Maui or Oahu, and you can get some decent places to live for less than here in Los Angeles. It's absolutely beautiful there and has a spiritual vibe like no where else I've been before. It's also about the closest thing you can get to moving out of the US, it has a foreign or international feel and you don't need a passport.

You can garden year round and if there are ever food shortages you can just go into the jungle and live on fruit and catch seafood. It's also"off the grid" so to speak.

Kauai is the most magical place I've ever been to and when I left it was with a tear in my eye promising myself to return, so maybe now is the time. There are intentional communities forming all over the islands...or if there is any one on PA who likes this idea and would like to join me on the islands please speak up or PM me

The way I see it is that South America has some benefits and some detractors. The benefits are that many of the people are already self-sustaining and may not be hit that hard by the economic crisis. If/when the economic collapse hits the fan, it might be much better to be in a small self-sufficient community in South American than here with the sheeple who may just end up losing their sanity en mass, which could logically be followed by implementation of fascism and civil unrest. I'm no big fan of any South American government, but I think in this respect they might be much better off than we are.

The detractors of course are the language barrier for those who don't speak fluent Spanish, our lack of citizenship, and the big question of whether the local government would respect our property rights and generally leave us alone.

I haven't felt too compelled by Hawaii for some reason. I've heard that the islands are heavily dependent on imports from the mainland for survival and that there truly aren't enough resources for everyone on the islands without substantial imports. I haven't researched this, so I'm not 100% sure this is correct information. Do you know if this is the case? Aside from that, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be a great idea to move to Hawaii

--sjkted

[AscendingStarseed]

Unfortunately South America isn't the right destination for me since I'm a female who's alone, don't speak the language...

Yes the islands rely on imports, but I can take my electronics, computer and other necessities with me to the islands. Once I have a place to live I've learned to live fairly simply on a shoestring budget when necessary. As humans we really don't "need" a whole lot to survive...I've learned to live inexpensively so I'm not too concerned about that. I don't care where you live, there are ways of acquiring what we need inexpensively - you just have to be resourceful.

Even tho Hawaii depends on imports, the US mainland does too and I'm starting to see signs of inflation with price increases across the board. So, if you can grow your own food year round that helps, which you can do on the islands. If you get desperate, you can also find food in the jungle there...and the weather is good year round.

The whole idea of living a self sustained lifestyle is the goal here, part of which means not needing a whole lot of $$$ to survive because you're self sufficient.

[AscendingStarseed]

One thing that Kauai has going for it is that the islands have enormous spiritual energy. When I was there it impressed me as being the most spiritual place I've ever been too....the only other place I can compare it too would be the four corners region.

Kauai has a magical feel to it that I've never experienced anywhere else I've been, living with that kind of energy is ultimately what I'm seeking out. I've been all over the US, traveled down the West coast of Mexico to Acapulco and also into Canada to Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver. No place felt as magical as Kauai....

With magic in our lives nothing is impossible, and that is where I want to be in a place that connects with our inner magic....when times get tough we will to be in a place where we can access easily our inner magic, our higher power. So we can manifest that which we need for our survival and to ascend.

[shiftmonkey]

Originally Posted by AscendingStarseed

To get the tribal elders to agree would be difficult I'm sure, but if they had some kind of control over who was allowed residence on tribal lands maybe it would make a difference.

It's totally reasonable for tribes to not want anything to do with the white man... but the bottom line is that their knowledge and wisdom is dying along with their culture. Would they rather do nothing and completely die out? Whoever chooses to discriminate based on skin color really needs to get beyond that one... it's wrong no matter which side of the line you stand on. We are all "red" on the inside.

I believe that the elders who have not yet been corrupted would recognize an honest effort from the heart if it were brought forward with respect.

Perhaps a settlement could start off in a very small area- possibly even on land near the reservation as a starting place- sort of like a holding area that the elders would be invited to visit- to evaluate progress, communicate with members and share ideas. The occupants of the settlement would not have any other contact with the tribe unless invited to.

However, it would be important to find out which of the tribal leaders are in tune with the old wisdom.

Originally Posted by AscendingStarseed

If either or both of you would like to talk more, PM me and we'll take it from there.

I can not PM because I have not graduated to senior status on Avalon and the PM feature has not been activated for my account. I will write to the moderators and ask to be upgraded. Until then feel free to email me at: shift[at]shiftpages[dot]com

I posted this biotechture video in another thread but I am posting it again here because I think some of you might find it interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozX_nt5A4o

[mkspllmn]

Originally Posted by sjkted

Kre8ive Lady:

Do you think this would be solved by not having one single member who had any more of a controlling interest in the land than any other?

Not that I would wish hard times upon anyone, but I wonder if money had no value and if food was slightly more scarce if people would come together.

--sjkted

I think the only way to avoid the "Mini Hitler" situation is to make it against the rules of the community. If someone is storing too many resources or is power grabbing, the person would be considered for reprimand. We now know what can happen when power grows to monstrous proportions. Its a lesson well learned and, if we are ready, will carry us into the new paradigm.

The second point is more involved but it also ties in. When there is plenty then the community will fight, when there is scarcity then the community comes together. This is a remnant of the reptillian part of the brain. If there is any such thing as a viable community we are going to have to abandon this way of thinking. Think in terms of a higher purpose.

I just think it will take a major shift in the way people think. I'm not sure we are ready for that, but I could be wrong.

Also, I think everyone should have their own free energy.

I wouldnt be opposed to a Counsel of Elders but not a Government.

[Peace of mind]

There was a special on National Geographics about future cities on the seas...









now if I can just get rid of the aquaphobia...

--
Peace

[mkspllmn]

--
Peace[/QUOTE]

I definitely want that house!

[Spiralina]

Originally Posted by Neo

I have often thought about this and have come to at least a semi conclusion...

There can be no rules and no system, people can choose to co-operate with others or not. The moment you make another rigid system that everyone must conform to then you create the new world order all over again.

People have thought they have had the best concept for human living time and time again, but any system that does not include everyone and every concept is doomed to fail. We need no more systems!!!!!!!

This is an interesting string. T-Y

If this is true then I'm free to be picky, plunder, rip, lie, cheat and cut corners, decieve, and manipulate. Oh My...

Maybe 'system' could be replaced with another word that more aptly describes community, no matter the size.... Golden rule neighbors thrive best next to neighboring golden rule neighbors.

My definition of a self sufficient community would include developing practical skills, sharing work and rewards.

What with all the truth out there and things to learn, there would be no idle time because everyone would be busy working together...

We are capable and ready to begin the work of community and all that this involves including how to get along and work with one another. Encouragement = Progress. Teamwork is knowing when to take control and when to yield.

It's conceivable. These ideals can permeate. It's happened before and it'll happen again successfully as priority dictates.

Education, developing skills, coaching, encouraging others with patience, promotes and maintains community focus and is a working model.

One of our choices is to remain where we are now and grow where we're planted, as they say. Ask the trees, they know.

Kind Regards,

[housemouse2]

Originally Posted by sjkted

Hello All,

When I first bumped into Project Camelot a few years ago, I was inspired by George Green's concept of the groundcrew and communities. It seems like a community is the model that will ultimately work today and well into the future. With all of the research I've done, I feel we are reaching an ending point: our current structures are crumbling including government, industrial food, transportation systems, environment, monetary, moral/ethical standards. There is no doubt in my mind that these are all completely unsustainable -- the big question is when they will fall apart and by what will they be replaced?

I've set about to research Intentional Communities or Self Organized Communities and have been a little disappointed by what I have seen. The majority of communities I have found are for followers of a specific religious path. Many of the others are basically real estate deals to buy a parcel of land with the opportunity to build your own home and join a Home Owner's Association with a eco-friendly bent.

I have nothing ill to say about either of these paths, but I have found that neither is right for me and I am unconvinced that these models are the solution to the above issues, although they are a big improvement over the concrete empire that many of us loosely call home.

I'm writing a blog on the major issues regarding the creation of a community and how a tribe of people can be as self sufficient as possible and live off the land with minimal dollar/money cost. In order for these solutions to work, they must be renewable, good to the environment, and relatively inexpensive and easy to use. There are many survival guides on topics such as surviving in the woods or surviving a nuclear catastrophe, but none of them seem to detail how to survive the long-term destruction of our civilization. It has been said that no man is an island unto himself. Just as it is nearly impossible to survive by oneself in a system dominated by money, it will be almost impossible to make it in the future alone. Any topics discussed must be applicable to groups who can split up tasks and create new ways of organization never before seen.

Here are the main topics on the list:

1. Sanitation / Hygiene
2. Water
3. Communication
4. Living / Shelter
5. Security/Protection
6. Health/Medical/Healing
7. Transporation
8. Food / Cooking
9. Energy

Following these are a discussion on topics such as financing, legal issues, property ownership, rules, community organization, etc.

The goal is to produce some sort of a "business plan" on how a small number of individuals can take ownership of a land and create a community and sustainable economies with other local communities. It need not be a rigid plan, but it should be able to guide urbanites to switching over their lifestyle without making too many mistakes.

I am proposing that I post these topics and my research here on Avalon first and then after receiving comment from other members and input who have topic experience and expertise on other methods. Once this is done, I'll post in an edited (condensed) form on the blog.

I'm writing here not as an expert who has been there, done that but as a researcher who is very interested in creating a model that people could use to transition from the corporate world into a community/nature world.

I would appreciate your comments and ideas here.

-- sjkted

all the answers to your question can be found in the past. The world didn't get this way on it's own. What we are in is the last stages of a failed economic experiment started in 1950. The economy we grew up with is not the economy that was originally here.

after ww2 a linear economy system based on consumption was established. Prior to this economic model the economy was based on recycling and using few resources.

If you go back prior to ww2 you will find exactly how they did it. Material was more expensive, so was labor. however, money was sound and inflation non existent.

to get back to that model we need to change a few fundamental ideals:

fractional banking, credit cards, federal reserve all need to end.
minum wage needs to end
government needs to get out of private industry
anti-monopoly laws need to be placed back in.

how to start:

you cannot due this all be yourself but there is a number of things you can do to start the ball rolling.

first stop wasting money on convenience foods, things you don't need.
I suggest you get some old books that tell how things were done before the 1950's. Cooking, gardening, ect.

it is legal to make your own community money, backed by gold in a community bank. As long as the money doesn't look like federal reserve notes and you don't mint coins.

Get your community accustomed to a community owned bank, with gold stock, print own money. This is a key part.

set up an exchange for the federal reserve note to community money as well.

utilities:

depending on area, you will have to address water, sewage, electric. Those are all easily fixed.

Taxes: this is tricky. Unless you can get your community declared a sovereign entity and no subject to taxes, like an Indian reservation or religious compound you are screwed on taxes.

To be more self sufficient you simply need land to farm or product to produce to sell. Everyone in rural communities used to have their own farms. Small family farms to have food.

Electricity is only been around 100 years. Solar panels are good and so is non electrical units...like oil lamps.

It doesn't matter how off the grid you house is...without reestablishing sound money and a recyclable economy you won't get that new community. You must start with a community bank, gold stock and community cash.

[Ammit]

Originally Posted by housemouse2

all the answers to your question can be found in the past. The world didn't get this way on it's own. What we are in is the last stages of a failed economic experiment started in 1950. The economy we grew up with is not the economy that was originally here.

Probably because there was no economy.
after ww2 a linear economy system based on consumption was established. Prior to this economic model the economy was based on recycling and using few resources.

And queing up for rations with a little book of stamps, nah not again i hope.

If you go back prior to ww2 you will find exactly how they did it. Material was more expensive, so was labor. however, money was sound and inflation non existent.

Wood for housing, animals and crops for food, learning how to save and aquire seeds, so on and so forth.
to get back to that model we need to change a few fundamental ideals:

No, we need to change a lot of ideas and the system.
fractional banking, credit cards, federal reserve all need to end.
minum wage needs to end
government needs to get out of private industry
anti-monopoly laws need to be placed back in.

Exactly, there would be no need for a currency, would there?

how to start:

you cannot due this all be yourself but there is a number of things you can do to start the ball rolling.

first stop wasting money on convenience foods, things you don't need.
I suggest you get some old books that tell how things were done before the 1950's. Cooking, gardening, ect.

it is legal to make your own community money, backed by gold in a community bank. As long as the money doesn't look like federal reserve notes and you don't mint coins.

Get your community accustomed to a community owned bank, with gold stock, print own money. This is a key part.

set up an exchange for the federal reserve note to community money as well.

And the cycle begins again....

utilities:

depending on area, you will have to address water, sewage, electric. Those are all easily fixed.

Water and sewage yes, electricty!!, why?

Taxes: this is tricky. Unless you can get your community declared a sovereign entity and no subject to taxes, like an Indian reservation or religious compound you are screwed on taxes.

Would you need to pay taxes once everything was crashed?

To be more self sufficient you simply need land to farm or product to produce to sell. Everyone in rural communities used to have their own farms. Small family farms to have food.

Yes they did, in the realms of what we have now, why go back to the days of the sheriff of Notingham and start paying taxes again?
Electricity is only been around 100 years. Solar panels are good and so is non electrical units...like oil lamps.

So, prior to a hundred years ago we did without it, um, so why not again? you can make lamp oil from animal fats and such, unless you need a laptop to talk to people who no longer have electric to run one themselves?

It doesn't matter how off the grid you house is...without reestablishing sound money and a recyclable economy you won't get that new community. You must start with a community bank, gold stock and community cash.

If you need to start a community bank then we just as well stay where we are, the cycle will restart , without a doubt

Ammit

[sjkted]

housemouse2: I appreciate your post and I understand where you're coming from, but our entire model post-WWII is set up around a system of false scarcity. It's also based around having a small minority of people control the majority of resources. The problem we are having right now is that the entire model has failed. It failed about 2 years ago when we started the first round of bailouts.

Fractional reserve banking is a ponzi scheme. Just look around at the wages vs. standard of living now vs. post WWII. They have been declining for about 15 years. I could go on in detail about this, but there are better references elsewhere.

The solution for me is not to go back to where we were and try to re-create the hell we have right now, but to go back to where we were and create a system based on abundance and compassion. IMO, the only way to do this is by distributing a form of free energy which already does exist and has existed for a long time, but has been heavily suppressed because it is totally diametrically opposed to a free-market capitalist system.

[sjkted]

Kre8ive Lady: I've seen this system before with Ithaca Hours (http://www.ithacahours.com/). Correct me if I'm wrong, but these look almost the same to me.

I like this system because it invests in the community, brings local people closer together, and it brings everyone back to the concept of sound money. Overall, I don't think it's the final answer, but it's a pretty good solution until we get there.

--sjkted

[sjkted]

Peace of Mind said:
You say the community decides who gets in, but how is the community started and who will put who in charge? Judgmental mentalities is a big reason why we are in the situations we’re in today.

-----------

I agree with this in part. I think if our predominant system of organization was decentralized/community structures that there would be much less of this type of judgmental issues. Right now, one thing that I think really sucks about our culture is how easy it is to get stuck in one position in life. This stuckness affects our personal growth and just contributes to people being downright unhappy about life.

For example, buying a house and taking on a mortgage, having children, getting a job, etc. are all great things in a sense but in another they tie you to one thing in life often without an exit option.

My idea is that if there were a bunch of communities that one could freely move in between them. There may be an application process, but it would be more on the lines of matching energy and vibrations rather than the "in" group deciding whether the new group makes the cut.

I think the whole judgmental mentalities is also rooted in our perceived lack of abundance. If we had this setup, everyone would know that regardless of what they did in life, they would always have a place to sleep and food to eat. I also think that a genuine community ownership model would really take out the incentive for some people to take advantage of others.

-- sjkted

[sjkted]

Another thing is that if this type of a model was set up, would there be any need for any type of taxes? IMO, all government does is take resources (money) from one group of people and give it to another. There are people who genuinely need welfare and public services, but if there was a community economic model that accommodated people in need, would we still need the government?

--sjkted