Concerns Members Have About Enforcement of Forum Rules

[Seashore]

This thread is an off-shoot of the thread "Cliff High view on Bill Ryans accusations."

I am starting this thread because I sense strong feelings that evidently have been building up over time concerning actions taken by members in authority positions that need to be aired - in an attempt to rectify what may need to be rectified.

I'm going to say something radical. I'm beginning to wonder whether we would be better off without moderators. Just let members handle issues of rudeness themselves.

Functions such as moving threads, changing the titles of threads, and removing pornography could be handled by someone, but rudeness we could handle ourselves.

On the issue of trolls, we could all agree to ignore them.

Maybe this is a dumb idea. But let's have a discussion.

[waitinginthewings]

Originally Posted by Seashore

This thread is an off-shoot of the thread "Cliff High view on Bill Ryans accusations."

I am starting this thread because I sense strong feelings that evidently have been building up over time concerning actions taken by members in authority positions that need to be aired - in an attempt to rectify what may need to be rectified.

I'm going to say something radical. I'm beginning to wonder whether we would be better off without moderators. Just let members handle issues of rudeness themselves.

Functions such as moving threads, changing the titles of threads, and removing pornography could be handled by someone, but rudeness we could handle ourselves.

On the issue of trolls, we could all agree to ignore them.

Maybe this is a dumb idea. But let's have a discussion.

Thank you Seashore for bringing this up, perhaps members can air their frustrations here about whats been going on.

I would disagree on ignoring the trolls, it simply doesn't work.....it has been tried. Reminds me of the school bully in the playground beating up some kid. Unless the teacher steps in and removes the bully, the bullying will continue. As you have seen here, the trolls have many alias and many strategies to engage unsuspecting members. imo the mods need to stop the troll before he becomes a full blown problem.

[Céline]

Originally Posted by waitinginthewings

imo the mods need to stop the troll before he becomes a full blown problem.

i completely agree...but i also feel the members should have more responsibility...not sure how that could be applied... perhaps more control over their own threads?

[sjkted]

Originally Posted by Céline

i completely agree...but i also feel the members should have more responsibility...not sure how that could be applied... perhaps more control over their own threads?

I agree also. This forum needs to support a welcoming environment to newcomers and forum veterans. If the atmosphere starts to resemble a tavern brawl, many of our brightest members will simply go elsewhere.

--sjkted

[TRANCOSO]

A troll is a troll is a troll is a troll. If you've seen one, you've seen 'm all. Recognizing them is knowing them. You must be either pretty despared, or get (very well) paid by one the alphabetsoup agencies to become a troll though.

I'm going to say something radical. I'm beginning to wonder whether we would be better off without moderators. Just let members handle issues of rudeness themselves.

I don't think that will work. Also it's an invitation to everyone with bad & sad intentions to spill their beans at PA.

[Seashore]

Okay I asked for a discussion and I got it!

Thank you.

I feel that a lot of the problem with trolls has been more the members' responses to the trolls than it has been the trolls' posts themselves!

[burgundia]

Originally Posted by waitinginthewings

imo the mods need to stop the troll before he becomes a full blown problem.

But as you have probably noticed the mods see them only after they have been exposed by other members...or...they have to wait for an opporunity to ban them...

[waitinginthewings]

Originally Posted by Seashore

Okay I asked for a discussion and I got it!

Thank you.

I feel that a lot of the problem with trolls has been more the members' responses to the trolls than it has been the trolls' posts themselves!

Seashore: the troll posts baiting questions, & a member who is not yet aware of the game being played, will answer the trolls question nicely, respectfully, and another baiting question comes back in return......so this is how it begins, the purpose being to stir conflict, disrupt, frustrate the members posting. How is that the good members problem. I think it is necessary to place the blame fairly where it belongs and not deflect it onto the good members here.

[Seashore]

Another thing is that I feel that the trolls are just going to keep on coming back using whatever it is they do to come back and I think banning them just gives temporary relief.

We've really and truly ignored them in the past and it hasn't worked?

[Moxie]

Exactly Seashore, your post#6, is how I've also witnessed what's gone down. Without all the responses to "trolls", the troll's posts would just hang there on the page, correct?

Maybe we need a RANT CENTRAL thread ... at least that one would not need bumping.

[Antonia]

I agree with Seashore regarding the fact that it all seems to be decending in to really petty stuff...but I think the moderators are just doing their jobs and every one is thankfully opinionated and here to voice thier opinions... which is what a forum is surely about??? Where we all debate and listen to to totally opposit views as well as views that concur with our own.. this is how we enrich our selves with more questions, knowledge and challages...
But all this name calling (Trolls) and mud slinging??? Hello? What ever happened to all things being connected and sacred in their connection to Source... whether positive or negitive??? All part of the great all that is??
Surely this holiday season is about peace and love... Surely our human evolution is about empathy and live and let let live? Tollerance and open mindedness .... can every one just take a chill pill and big groupe hug for heavens sake??? This is a united forum??? and it should take a really dasterdly deed to be banned .. surely a warning or a repremand first??

I know the energies on the planet are very confused at the moment and much pent up energy is being released... me.. I'm as guilly of getting caught up in tight criticle self righteousness as much as any one .. I have been horrible to my poor 11 year old yesterday exploding in anger about her critisising my own messy house?? I'm trying to make it up to her and reflect on the energies around at the moment but please every one just take a step back and lets all look in the mirror and stop being criticle... I'm concentrating on Joy..peace .. love and blessings.. laughter and fortitude and much much light to you all.. what ever your opinions are!! I mean this from the bottom of my heart... We all need to get over our selves and laugh out loud!! And toast in the new year!!riginal :

[burgundia]

So why do so many memebrs engage in serious discussions with the trolls instead of ignoring them? They even make friends with the trolls, pity them and offer emotional support... and the trolls are having fun...mocking some more gullible members and then openly admitting it...
(but at least they provide fun from time to time...)

[waitinginthewings]

Originally Posted by Seashore

Another thing is that I feel that the trolls are just going to keep on coming back using whatever it is they do to come back and I think banning them just gives temporary relief.

We've really and truly ignored them in the past and it hasn't worked?

I agree with you on both points......the truth is that trolls have a specific mission, & that is to disrupt, frustrate, denigrate as much as possible before they get banned. They know before they even start here that they will be banned. Its a big game to them. No amount of ignoring them works....its been tried already.....like I posted before, they are the school ground bullies.....they keep doing it, until someone stops them.

The question becomes how do we stop them before they even start. There not interested in spiritual lessons, its been tried also.

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by waitinginthewings

a member who is not yet aware of the game being played, will answer the trolls question nicely, respectfully, and another baiting question comes back in return......

I feel that this is part of the learning process for new people. This is the school of hard knocks. The real world. People will learn the hard way - the best way.

Also, we can help each other out with private messages.

[burgundia]

Originally Posted by Seashore

I feel that this is part of the learning process for new people. This is the school of hard knocks. The real world. People will learn the hard way - the best way.

Also, we can help each other out with private messages.

Old memebers fall for that too....

[Seashore]

Originally Posted by burgundia

Old memebers fall for that too....

Old members can learn new tricks!

[metaw3]

I've been founder, and/or mod, and/or admin of a number of forums. Except for one, they were much smaller than this one and I can guarantee you that without mods this forum cannot survive. The main problem is its popularity AND it's free for posting. The little fee to post was the best moderation. When you put down money, you value what you do. There's no better moderation. Now that it's free, you get people posting who don't give a **** about the forum because they didn't work (put money) for using it. So based on my past experiences I think that right now is a critical moment for the survival of this forum. It will obviously won't go back to paid subscriptions and its popularity will increase with more careless posters everyday. My advice to the leading team is to take the ATS forums as an example. This is the best example I've seen on the net of a forum who managed to survive its popularity. I think if each mod here gets an account on ATS and start using their forums, you will get the feeling of what Avalon could be if it managed to survive its popularity and gratuity. BTW, I'm not an ATS member and I assumed it is free for posting. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, check their TOS and get a feel of what it is to be a new member there. I'm sure it will help to figure moderation and rules here.

[Zeddo]

Originally Posted by metaw3

I can guarantee you that without mods this forum cannot survive.
The main problem is its popularity AND it's free for posting.
The little fee to post was the best moderation. When you put down money, you value what you do.

Thank you Metaw, this is exactly what I was going to say...the sooner we have a fee applied again, the better.
Personally, I need to question why the sub was removed, and I feel it was more than just plain benevolence.

Z

[burgundia]

Originally Posted by Zeddo

Personally, I need to question why the sub was removed, and I feel it was more than just plain benevolence.

Z

[Stargazer1965]

Hmm...how do I write this??

Aren't we the ones that go on about upsetting the status quo??

Aren't we supposedly the enlightened??

Why should leading questions bother us....or maybe we should question ourselves more often??

Maybe someone swimming against the current is a good thing and our emotional responses are what make us human....and they may be our downfall.

Maybe we need to redefine TROLL

It seems to be hedging toward ...DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE REST OF US

When it should be just a plain ole abusive person.

I feel like a psych student now....Later Gators

[Anchor]

The problem with characterizing anyone as a TROLL is that it is immediately prejudicial.

We banned a lot of people recently. When we were subscription there were very few actions against members. The forum is a free for all and we cannot rely on more than several thousand members to simply "ignore". That would be naive (ideal I agree). A lot of members always think they can do better than the moderators we get endless posts telling us how to do our work. Some of it is useful, some of it make me cringe.

Some people come here to learn - others come to make fun at our expense.

The moderators are damned if they do and damned if they dont. We tried to increase the numbers of moderators, mainly to increase coverage, but also to avoid charges of "tyranny" - we try to avoid bans without internal debate. Sometimes it isnt possible.

There is no way we can do our jobs without the ability to eject people intent of working against the mission of the forum.

Note people are not ejected because they are disruptive -we need disruptive people. The new ideas and input I have seen here since the subscription requirement was lifted is fantastic. The staus quo was getting old. The new stuff is fantastic.

It comes at a price. Enforcement is sometimes needed.

Most people are banned/ejected ultimately because it is obvious that they are intent on causing harm to what avalon and camelot are supposed to be: respectful discussion forums.

It is not about censorship - but I would say that, and I remember warning all the moderators that when we ban or remove posts that is what we get accused of. Goes with the turf. Cant do anything about it.

If the moderators cease to act to keep the forum on track - then I am pretty sure the forum will slowly become useless and all the remaining people that were tenacious enough to stick with it would eventually leave.

A..

[Majorion]

Have to admit, sometimes I reply to trolls in the hope of changing their minds. It's obvious when they are being provocative, but nevertheless.

These people don't perceive themselves trolls, they think they are doing justice of some sort, but perhaps if it can be established (with them) that they are doing something wrong, and I know it's a long shot with some people, but if you can actually get someone to understand from another perspective, you might hit the jackpot.

Easier said than done, I know.

With some people there is no negotiation, no debate, no room for any opinion sharing, and it becomes evident very quickly. If a pertinent query is not even acknowledged, well there you go!

[New Age Messiah]

Respectful adult conversation is boring, to me anyway.

Very few people are respectable, so it's kinda dishonest to pretend to respect them.

Put it this way, to respect what they say, no matter how silly or petty or wrong or WHATEVER, it is, is dishonest.

[Brian En]

I have no idea who the trolls are here, so I have to rely on the mods to moderate the boards. I like that these boards are here for me to learn from youse that have been at this a lot longer than I have. I'm all for tossing out the trolls, they do little for the fuctionality of any board. I used to be a member of another board that was totally overrun by an invasion of trolls that attracted even more trolls which led to the deletion of that board.

[New Age Messiah]

Originally Posted by Brian En

I'm all for tossing out the trolls, they do little for the fuctionality of any board.

I think the OP was trying to address regular posters who are drawn to the site for the right reasons, and then personality things or whatever come up, and then it's "forum rules".

All subjective rules can be perverted or misused depending on "who" someone is or whatever. There are always clique type forces and emotional bonding and groupthink type things, that cause some people to be protected and others to be rejected.