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Old 11-05-2008, 06:42 PM   #1
cavemandd
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Default Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

I find there doesn't seem to be a straight answer for what is considered right or wrong. People have different interpretations, and it seems to me that this also one way our legal system seems so flawed. To me, the way to get rid of problems is education, not punishment. The idea of jail is to temporarily remove a problematic person, and to also instill this fear of punishment. Any real change of their behaviour I believe would be due to their own contemplation.

So I say this, "criminals", or those who make "mistakes".. or cause chaos, upset the balance, or go against our morality, should be educated, not punished. I think to see the value in this however, we need to as a society feel the need for evolution, and to accept an idea such as re-incarnation.

So we need to help share the wisdom so such mistakes could be avoided, mistakes we deem as criminal activities. But what constitutes a mistake?

I look at it this way... everything we do, is a mistake, and everything we do also isn't a mistake. What I mean is it's actually kind of irrelevant. We can only do what we are able to do at the time. We act on the best of our knowledge, experience, and state of mind. It directly reflects our effects on the world around us.

For instance... Something I may have done 5 years ago, I probably thought I handled pretty well, but since then I have changed as a person. I have become wiser and now have a different perspective on life. I can basically look to every action of the past as a mistake, because now I would do it differently.

The point is, this seems to be the very description of the time reality. That is, while living in the moment, everything in the past seems irrelevant in the sense that we dissassociate with it more and more as we learn. Why cling to the past when we know we wouldn't do the same now? It serves as a reminder, as an affirmation of our progression.

I think we have to handle each others "mistakes", with patience, understanding and ecuation, and humility. Some people don't learn as fast. Some people we think just can't be fixed. Learning is a process, it doesn't happen instantly. Again, this to me is the time reality...If we were to chart our life as a frequency...and if we were to be free of time, learning would come instantly, but it would still have a progression. There is still the movement of the energy, the patterns from point A to B.

We will learn, but while we experience time, it can seem hopeless.

(I'm going to continue this as 2 parts)..
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:53 PM   #2
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

*CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

So what constitutes right or wrong? What is morality if we can only expect to act on the best of our ability at the time. Who is more right or wrong?

We all have different ways we'd like to live. Some people live for chaos, while our society is structured around order. We all have different desires and to decide what's "best" seems to be... logically and emotionally based.

If people desire to be happy.. and productive, then order is the route. To live by "good". Its the sense of happyness, love and productivity that seems to be linked to the concept of "good".

What we have in the world seems to be a balance between what we percieve as good and evil... for we live in a structured society, yet its filled with chaos and corruption.

The "good" people want good, and the "bad" people want bad.

If I wanted to take the law into my own hands, I would do so because I desire order, and I desire to help (helping being "good"). I would see problems and I would try and remove them to keep the order, keep the productivity going and the positive emotions.

I would do this out of love, which I can understand as being a truth, which is why it drives us and why we evolve. We become "good-ER" . I just see that everything is linked. That to me is undeniable, the unity, and from this sense comes like an instinctual desire to go with the flow, and ride that wave of unity, for in it I feel the deepest sense of meaning.

Ok but now what about free will? I will discuss that in the 3rd part.
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:29 PM   #3
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Part 3.

Free Will and Justice.

In a karmic sense, people have different desires, and you could try and label them as good or bad, but either way it's something they incarnate to experience. They want to learn from it. Maybe the learning process would be just to rid themselves of this desire because of its "negative" or dissorderly reprocussions, which one feels inhibits theirl search for inner-truth.

Either way, in the karmic sense, they incarnate to experience it, so who's to say it's right or wrong?

What I'm trying to say is to try and centralize on the hidden theme here, which is personal truth. We can hold ourselves back, or we can dig for the truth and evolve. Doing good things, and bad things, both serve as learning processes. To me, truth is when you just cease from all action and just observe. Its the realisation of your being. When you just close your eyes, and feel that sense of being. The fact that you are aware that you exist, and argueably, that is all that matters to you.

I think people look at the whole spiritual love approach as letting things fall apart, to not deal with our "problems". I have 2 oppinions on this. I will always try and fix problems, to keep the order. I do it out of this love-unity because I feel it has truth to my existence. I don't mean getting soft on criminals. If they can't be educated, then going back to the idea of "mistakes", we can only expect to act on the best of our ability.

If I were to kill a criminal, that is my decision.. I might later decide it could have been handled differently, but I can't change the past. I acted the best I knew how. I don't see how this would really go against love either? I'm not talking about making this person suffer, just removing them. If I were to firmly believe re-incarnation, then my decision to "remove" this person would be just to relocate them... And hey, their consciousness would learn from that experience, and so would mine. I'm not approving of going on a killing spree to solve the world's problems, i'm just giving an example of a situation from a spiritual approach. Not to be compared to war. War is nothing but suffering. This is more the idea of capital punishment. I'm just talking about "relocating" someone as a means to solve an issue.

It's kind of like how in comic books how some see a super hero as a menace because maybe they might kill criminals and cause massive destruction to fix a "problem", while others see it as heroic. Or its also like how some people see soldiers as heroes..whereas others see them as murderers. I might not agree with their methods, but I know the people in the military that I know, are acting to the best of their ability, and feel it is right. People have different perspectives, it is part of what makes us unique. We have something to learn from everyone, even if it's just a different perspective. Spiritually, this is how I view consciousness. We represent different perspectives of our being.

Ok lets get to the point I'm trying to make. "things" happen... it can be considered right or wrong, we can only act the best to our ability, and it all reflects our sense of personal truth. But where does free will tie into?

That will be the next part, I might have said it would be this part but I kind of went off there.
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

I think you have put the question of free will very well and have answered much of your own question.

I think that essentially free will is limited to our ability to resist or accept whatever appears in our life.
If we resist the "lesson" will reapear till we get the message and change our response, so as such there are only lessons/
"
Nothing is right or wrong till thinking makes it so"

Through maturity as you have said our take or perception of what went on changes so as we see it differently our action changes.

Our free willl response so to speak is governed by our conditioning- genes- DNA -- the works.

To give an example when I was a practising Hypnotherapist as an experiment I would say to people "what does the word dog mean to you?
I wold get one of three responses

(1) Fear -- I was bitten by a dog as a child, I could never trust any dog again.

(2) Indiference -- what have dogs got to do with my therapy?

(3) Love -- Oh I love dogs allways had one ---

Those were conditioned responses -- the person really could not have acted otherwise at that time.

However in the case of fear a dog phobia could be removed by hypnois.

So we are not locked into our conditioning when we realise what it is.
A willingness to change, see things differently is a great asset.

Moral code is not the same throughout the world, what is right in one country may not be acceptable in another.

An Arab may have more than one wife and the benefits of not expecting one woman alone to look after all the various things that women do so well would be laudable.
However many would see that as a form of sexist slavery.

In UK you would probably be locked up for bigamy.

There is no easy or difinitive answer to your question its just a question of what works for the individual.

But I love the statement. " We make plans and God laughs"

Not saying thats true.

Chris
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:56 PM   #5
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Part 4.

FREE WILL.

If you look at the idea of karma, re-incarnation, evolving consciousness, and even astrology, it would all seem to indicate free will. I feel that many things we experience in life have been pre-planned on our part, so from this perspective, the free will is and always has been mine.

For instance... the topic of slavery... which seems to be getting increasingly popular in this day in age!

If we create our reality, and incarnate with specific things to experience, then even if we were say, a slave... we still had the free will to make that decision. Only in this case... it's a bit different. We have free will, yet by entering into a life of slavery (willingly).. we experience what it's like to be stripped of our free will, (to some degree). If we create our own reality as it is believed, then if slavery were to really, genuinely conflict with our spiritual goals,... then our reality would change to get ourselves out of it. Because "I" truly do feel our thoughts reflect our reality,.. it is a truth to me that even if I were to become a slave, it is by my will. Perhaps my subconscious knows best. Perhaps it is my goal to experience slavery for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps I became a slave because I'm the guy that inspired people and gave them the will to live? Perhaps it is my goal to bring brotherhood, unity and endurance to my fellow enslaved? Just giving an example.

The idea that we incarnate to experience specific things, and that we do it willingly, gives me yet another perspective on this idea of "mistakes"...or the idea of good and evil, right or wrong..

So... basically.. this is where I sum it up:

If some person was doing something and my actions resulted in his/her death or pain, whether it was accidental or intentional.. it must still be their will.

Its like these things I read about, the karmic bond between killer and victim. One might kill another and the next life feel they need to take care of them as a parent or nurse.

And another thing... if I was a soldier, or a vigilante out for justice and I was acting to the best of my ability, and say I killed someone, which I may later consider to be a "mistake"... it seems to me... it's still what they wanted..its STILL what the soul wanted. They had to experience that from you, and you wanted to experience that from them. We'll always look back and think we could have done better but in this perspective, everything that happens is as it should be....It just happens... The energy flows in a pattern...It's life, it's consciousness. Its full of a range of emotions and perspectives.

I think that sums up what I was trying to say.

Some of you must think I'm a monster but I'll tell you this, the truth of my being.. is that I like being a "nice" guy. . I value truth. I try to let my actions reflect it. I can live with my "mistakes".

On that note have a great day!
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

It's the intention that matters.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:04 PM   #7
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Thanks for your reply!

" We make plans and God laughs"

haha, I love this.. that's pretty much how I feel.. its all a big joke. We're all entertaining interesting thoughts and it rather almost comical. That raises another question, what causes laughter? People usually poke at negative things which they find funny. Really it just seems that life is laughter, it is joy.. because our silly little differences and the way we interact.

Love intertwined with energy, the yin and yang.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:10 PM   #8
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Shellie "It's the intention that matters".


Exactly my thought... things may not always go perfectly but its all about the intention.

If dealing with a criminal:
If your intention was love based, then maybe you'd try and educate them, and help them.

If your intention was to make them suffer, then you punish them.

Another person might view something like locking someone up in a box is to force them learn on their own. It just seems like an easy solution to a problem to some, I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but is there the intention there of love and evolution?
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Ps.

A good book that may have the answer to the question posed here is

"The Wisdom of Balsekar"
by Ramesh Balsekar.

Chris
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:20 PM   #10
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Thanks, I'll add that to the list.

I still got to get through book 2 and 3 of the convoluted universe. Thats 1200 pages before I can get to that one, and i'm a slow reader.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavemandd View Post
If some person was doing something and my actions resulted in his/her death or pain, whether it was accidental or intentional.. it must still be their will.

Its like these things I read about, the karmic bond between killer and victim. One might kill another and the next life feel they need to take care of them as a parent or nurse.

And another thing... if I was a soldier, or a vigilante out for justice and I was acting to the best of my ability, and say I killed someone, which I may later consider to be a "mistake"... it seems to me... it's still what they wanted..its STILL what the soul wanted. They had to experience that from you, and you wanted to experience that from them. We'll always look back and think we could have done better but in this perspective, everything that happens is as it should be....It just happens... The energy flows in a pattern...It's life, it's consciousness. Its full of a range of emotions and perspectives.


This is a just another way of saying to your victims: "YOU ASKED FOR IT!" By your logic, you will never experience any sense of guilt. It just happens...


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Old 11-05-2008, 09:00 PM   #12
cavemandd
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Of course I'll experience guilt, because that an emotional part of my reality.

I understand how this must sound, its difficult to voice every angle of spiritual things. They are so diverse. When you try and get to the core and analyse it, it just goes on and on.

Its our logic that we try and analyze everything. Some people can seem close minded because they are being logical, wheras, one who is lost in imagination, others accuse of losing grasp of the situation.

But where is the balance and the meaning? That's what I'm trying to touch on. I'm not a sociopath, haha. . I've been accused by a few people of being too emotionally driven.

So.. some of us might want to avoid unwanted emotions such as guilt, so our experience of that feeling can affect our interpretation and choice of how to handle situations. We might also feel that we just need to... justify it.

It really is quite confusing. An infinite spiral really to try and disect anything at all. There are infinite ways of looking at things. So many dimensions of thought to go from, yet not nearly summing up its entirety.

Mind boggling.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Quote:
Originally Posted by feeler View Post
This is a just another way of saying to your victims: "YOU ASKED FOR IT!" By your logic, you will never experience any sense of guilt. It just happens...


-feeler
I can see what you are saying.
At one level everything is perfection and what happens is happening out of the potential for it to happen.
If a crime is commited of course there is the potential to be punished for it.

As awarness arises that there is no cause and effect but potential then responsability also comes to act with love and kindness no matter what.

An example.
The Marigold seed has the potential to become a Marigold but it is not a Marigold.
The sunshines and rain falls which creates an enviroment for growth and the potential of the seed is realised.
The rain did not cause the seed to become anything. The rain just did what it does.

At the moment we lve in a world of duality as we are not evolved enough to learn without the lessons that this perspective brings.

We learn compassion through others pain.

In a strange way we are holding the other in pain by our need to experience compassion and it can be very subtle. Not in awareness.
Im not saying dont feel compassion it is much needed till its not.

We have all heard of co-dependence.
There have been cases where a person in a wheelchair has made a miraculous recovey when the carer died.

Until there is true experiencing of oneness then duality reigns.

Unconditional Love has no opposite it just radiates Love regardless.
That is non-duality.

This just my understanding of the moment - not saying im right.

There is enormous freedom in not having to be right.

Regards Chris
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Again, the fact that we "FEEL".. to varying degrees.. makes that part our interpretation of the situation.

If we had no emotions, then they wouldn't be a factor. I accept that emotions are part of who were are, they are part of our reality, so they are every bit just as important to take into consideration when trying to look for the bigger picture.

Whats yin without yang? (Using that interpretation of the relation of love and energy) Can we understand the meaning of yes without a no? Does it matter?

Some people live a life that is more yin, or more yang, more desire or more love, selfless or selfish. Is it just energy...rather thought? Are they just ideas of one being, are individually ideas or vantage points viewing our entirety?

It keeps me comming back to the same spot: "I just exist"

We exist with any colour we choose.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

I hear you greybeard. But I am somewhat at this spot where I think the oneness is existence of the duality.. or rather.. hard to find the words...

If you could compare the love as the truth, and the energy as the illusion, if they exist in a stable relationship as the flow of nature, then.. it seems the truth lies in the existence and non-existence, or in the duality of nature. Aghh, I know, hard for me to describe.

I started thinking about the duality in more depth when I started reading into Tai chi, and I found their interpretation of love being half of the entirety...or rather is the entirety, but is intwined with the "nothing", or energy.

I have no idea if that made any sense.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

I can relate to your ideas cavemandd

if we were all alone and never interacted with another person, all this lesson learning would be easy but the amount of knowledge gained would be minor in comparison to living in a city

the more poeple you nave access to crazier things get

in today's world we think globally and interact emotionally with an overwhelming amount of people

all with different versions of truth they cling to

LOL its a mess

but aren't we learning more and faster than we were all alone

interesting times
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Heretic:

Agreed on the city part. I have learned so much learning in a major city. I currently live in a "bad neighborhood" as well. There are many different things that have occured while living here that I learned from. In big cities you get to interact with the rich and the poor, the sick and the healthy, the kind and unkind and all other unique flavours that are attached.

I feel this connection with nature and I often question why I'd ever live in a big city to experience its corruption, but I know its because I want to see it get better. I also want to travel the world to give me different perspectives.

I just have to be around where the energy is being exchanged I guess, good interpretation on that one. Thanks.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavemandd View Post
I hear you greybeard. But I am somewhat at this spot where I think the oneness is existence of the duality.. or rather.. hard to find the words...

If you could compare the love as the truth, and the energy as the illusion, if they exist in a stable relationship as the flow of nature, then.. it seems the truth lies in the existence and non-existence, or in the duality of nature. Aghh, I know, hard for me to describe.

I started thinking about the duality in more depth when I started reading into Tai chi, and I found their interpretation of love being half of the entirety...or rather is the entirety, but is intwined with the "nothing", or energy.

I have no idea if that made any sense.
Hi
You are right in that the deeper you get into the subject of spirituality the more confusing it can seem.

However it is all in the level of consciousness -- the viewpoint.
People are exactly where they are supposed to be in the scheme of things.
All are in the process of coming home.

All souls are equal -- some are just further along the path than others.

One expression that is used by a Enlightened teacher is " I am the Totality all of it.

So God is both here and transcedant.. God is every atom every molocule.

We are on the verge of the greatet step in evolution since we left the sea acording to Eckhart Tolle and others.

Yes there is the Ying and Yang -- Mantak Chia books are good.

Virtually everything in this world came into being through male and female energy merging to become as one and creating the vehicle for life to come into a new form.

Its not that the world is changing as such its our change of perception that will enable us to see a "New World"

Duality only exists as as an illusion of the mind. Opposites
seem to seperate that which is in reality one -- all waves of the Divine Ocean.

You can start to see through duality if you start to see things on a sliding scale like a thermometor.
There is less heat or more heat.
Less love or more love.
You can apply this way of seeing to virtually anything.

I believe that love exists in everyone to a lesser or greater degree.
People who were meglo maniacs and were responsible for the death of millions have loved their dog for example.

Duality is a creation of the ego.

One ness is God.

In absolute reality only God is.
We are back to waves of the divine Ocean.
The paradox is.
The Ocean can say it is the wave -- the wave can not say it is the Ocean.

This is only my understanding of the moment.
Everyones view is relative to where they are in the process of spiritually evolving and they must act in accordence with their personal experience and view point.

Regards Chris
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: Free will, morality, and "mistakes"

That was great grey beard.

I thought it was funny when you mentioned the dog.

That's exactly the kind of thing I think about. Our earth "overlords" have a family don't they?

I like how you keep sayings its your own interpretation. I find myself doing this a lot with everything I say. Its hard to write something without putting the words "I personally feel.." in every sentence.

Truth is something personal to me, I don't think it can be dictated. People can be controlled this way. They are forced someone else's truth so in a way they kind of assume that person's interpretation of reality... whether it be a society thing or religious dogma. Crusades anyone?
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