I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

[misbis]

Look at the background. UN from 1947,when declare Israel state

36560

[Sunny-side-up]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=36560&d=1511940046&thumb=1

It's the same as this I think, just bad angle.

http://www.abodia.com/fe/images/flat_earth_UN_flag.png

https://planetruthblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/selection_089.png

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fa/8a/f8/fa8af8361668de3e37a6c213e945d525--world-map-poster-vintage-world-maps.jpg

[Ewan]

Its just a different type of map projection, in this case I think Azimuthal.

http://geokov.com/education/map-projection.aspx

[Kano]

Here's what Tesla had to say about the Earth and its shape/state of existence.

“Earth is a realm, it is not a planet. It is not an object, therefore, it has no edge. Earth would be more easily defined as a system environment. Earth is also a machine, it is a Tesla coil. The sun and the moon are powered wirelessly with electromagnetic field (the Aether). This field also suspends the celestial spheres with electro-magnetic levitation. Electromagnetic levitation disproves gravity because the only force you need to counter is the electromagnetic force, not gravity. The stars are attached to the firmament.” – Nikola Tesla

[Nick Matkin]

It's a just a Great Circle map projection. In the original post (and the UN logo) the north pole is at the centre and the south pole around the edge.

For example here's one centred on Nepal.

http://www.df3cb.com/9n7bcc/images/gcm.gif

They are projections showing the true bearing of any location centred on your position. The antipodal point is around the edge.

This is one centred on the south pole, the north pole being round the edge. http://www.3dham.com/blog/gcmsp.jpg

Anyone professionally involved in long-distance flying or international HF radio communication will appreciate the usefulness of this type of map. Yet is seems to have some sinister connotation relating to a Flat Earth. The point being if the earth were flat, such projections would be unnecessary - a fact totally lost on Flat Earth believers...

[Pam]

Here's what Tesla had to say about the Earth and its shape/state of existence.

“Earth is a realm, it is not a planet. It is not an object, therefore, it has no edge. Earth would be more easily defined as a system environment. Earth is also a machine, it is a Tesla coil. The sun and the moon are powered wirelessly with electromagnetic field (the Aether). This field also suspends the celestial spheres with electro-magnetic levitation. Electromagnetic levitation disproves gravity because the only force you need to counter is the electromagnetic force, not gravity. The stars are attached to the firmament.” – Nikola Tesla


I thought this was a interesting quote so I did some research on it. It turns out that this is actually a quote from a guy named Darrell Fox. After the above mentioned statement he did quote something from Tesla and the rest is internet history. Through endless cut and pastes the Darell Fox quote has morphed into a quote by Tesla.

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-earth-is-a-realm-a-tesla-coil.t8466/

[misbis]

Here's what Tesla had to say about the Earth and its shape/state of existence.

“Earth is a realm, it is not a planet. It is not an object, therefore, it has no edge. Earth would be more easily defined as a system environment. Earth is also a machine, it is a Tesla coil. The sun and the moon are powered wirelessly with electromagnetic field (the Aether). This field also suspends the celestial spheres with electro-magnetic levitation. Electromagnetic levitation disproves gravity because the only force you need to counter is the electromagnetic force, not gravity. The stars are attached to the firmament.” – Nikola Tesla

It sound reasonable. It can be everything, can be part of bigger system,some suggest...I personally,based on knowledge of mega deception we are living, don't trust the official version.

[Justplain]

By the way, the Earth is a sphere. I have flown over frozen Greenland to get to Europe, I have cruised on a ship from Sidney to Hong Kong in March and it went from hot summer to cool spring. It took fourteen hours to fly home. The changes in seasons are perfectly explained by a spherical model as days get shorter as the sphere angles away from the sun. Time zones follow this rule too. The moon is a ball, just use binoculars and you can see. The sun is a ball, the planets are balls, so is the Earth. Flat Earth is a waste of time psy-op diversion.

[Omni]

We have threads on flat earth, if that is what the OP is suggesting. I think instead of becoming neutralized and controlled opposition (being a flat earther), reading some of the media on flat earth psyops would be a good idea for anyone considering flat earth.... Flat Earth Psychological Operations (http://www.psyop.info/2017/05/flat-earth-psychological-operations-the-flat-earth-psyop.html)

[Sunny-side-up]

Isn't it EGG shaped ?

[Kano]

Here's what Tesla had to say about the Earth and its shape/state of existence.

“Earth is a realm, it is not a planet. It is not an object, therefore, it has no edge. Earth would be more easily defined as a system environment. Earth is also a machine, it is a Tesla coil. The sun and the moon are powered wirelessly with electromagnetic field (the Aether). This field also suspends the celestial spheres with electro-magnetic levitation. Electromagnetic levitation disproves gravity because the only force you need to counter is the electromagnetic force, not gravity. The stars are attached to the firmament.” – Nikola Tesla


I thought this was a interesting quote so I did some research on it. It turns out that this is actually a quote from a guy named Darrell Fox. After the above mentioned statement he did quote something from Tesla and the rest is internet history. Through endless cut and pastes the Darell Fox quote has morphed into a quote by Tesla.

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-earth-is-a-realm-a-tesla-coil.t8466/

While metabunk.org holds zero weight with me, I can see that Tesla would probably not refer to himself in the 3rd person in a quote. :beer:

[Kano]

Isn't it EGG shaped ?

Correct. Well, technically an oblate spheroid.

[misbis]

By the way, the Earth is a sphere. I have flown over frozen Greenland to get to Europe, I have cruised on a ship from Sidney to Hong Kong in March and it went from hot summer to cool spring. It took fourteen hours to fly home. The changes in seasons are perfectly explained by a spherical model as days get shorter as the sphere angles away from the sun. Time zones follow this rule too. The moon is a ball, just use binoculars and you can see. The sun is a ball, the planets are balls, so is the Earth. Flat Earth is a waste of time psy-op diversion.

I have flown too, a lot, been on private ship around.....but I can not say for sure, what is the shape of the earth. But I have wandered since childhood about the light perspective of sun light.Only close object can cast light in such way

[Praxis]

By the way, the Earth is a sphere. I have flown over frozen Greenland to get to Europe, I have cruised on a ship from Sidney to Hong Kong in March and it went from hot summer to cool spring. It took fourteen hours to fly home. The changes in seasons are perfectly explained by a spherical model as days get shorter as the sphere angles away from the sun. Time zones follow this rule too. The moon is a ball, just use binoculars and you can see. The sun is a ball, the planets are balls, so is the Earth. Flat Earth is a waste of time psy-op diversion.

I have flown too, a lot, been on private ship around.....but I can not say for sure, what is the shape of the earth. But I have wandered since childhood about the light perspective of sun light.Only close object can cast light in such way

You need to stop everything in your life until you sort yourself out. If you truly believe that the earth is flat, which is what you are clearly hinting at, then leave this place and start doing some very simple research.

The whole flat earth idea is ridiculous nonsense by people who have ZERO understanding of anything in the physically reality.

Kano is absolutely correct about the oblate spheroid.

I do not discourage questioning reality at all, but this is so blatantly stupid that I can not comprehend how flat earthers do not drown when looking up at the rain.

Either that or expand upon your cosmology as you clearly understand things about our solar system that we do not. I have no idea what you are talking about how the light cast in such a way from only close objects.

First, define close, as it is relative.

Second, expand upon this light perspective that puzzles you.

You are beating around the bush about Flat Earth ideas and using the UN logo as a means to do so.

Either speak plainly about what you are thinking or dont waste time of the readers.

[Ewan]

.... I have wandered since childhood about the light perspective of sun light.Only close object can cast light in such way

misbis, only a distant light source can cast near parallel shadows.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03/94/13/3941364_8f48db16.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/20/44/7f204432958dc24f7650650e82b227a9.jpg

The closer the light source is the more divergent the resulting shadows.

http://furnitecture.ru/upload/5/4668/18f64958fad14b66649320.jpg

[WTHTLight]

Ewan,
Standing golf clap for your basic physics explanation! Well done sir!
my 2 cents
rehabdoc

[Nick Matkin]

@Ewan

Great, clear, easy to understand examples. But unfortunately it will go right over the heads of any Flatties! Trying to engage with them in any meaningful way is futile.

[Daozen]

You're all wrong, we're stuck in a giant toroid. hahaha.

[Kano]

By the way, the Earth is a sphere. I have flown over frozen Greenland to get to Europe, I have cruised on a ship from Sidney to Hong Kong in March and it went from hot summer to cool spring. It took fourteen hours to fly home. The changes in seasons are perfectly explained by a spherical model as days get shorter as the sphere angles away from the sun. Time zones follow this rule too. The moon is a ball, just use binoculars and you can see. The sun is a ball, the planets are balls, so is the Earth. Flat Earth is a waste of time psy-op diversion.

I have flown too, a lot, been on private ship around.....but I can not say for sure, what is the shape of the earth. But I have wandered since childhood about the light perspective of sun light.Only close object can cast light in such way

You need to stop everything in your life until you sort yourself out. If you truly believe that the earth is flat, which is what you are clearly hinting at, then leave this place and start doing some very simple research.

The whole flat earth idea is ridiculous nonsense by people who have ZERO understanding of anything in the physically reality.

Kano is absolutely correct about the oblate spheroid.

I do not discourage questioning reality at all, but this is so blatantly stupid that I can not comprehend how flat earthers do not drown when looking up at the rain.

Either that or expand upon your cosmology as you clearly understand things about our solar system that we do not. I have no idea what you are talking about how the light cast in such a way from only close objects.

First, define close, as it is relative.

Second, expand upon this light perspective that puzzles you.

You are beating around the bush about Flat Earth ideas and using the UN logo as a means to do so.

Either speak plainly about what you are thinking or dont waste time of the readers.

Whoa, pump the brakes there cowboy.

People are on their own journey and we all come to realizations on our own time. When you consider the whole host of lies, hoaxes, and faked photos and videos that NASA provides us, it is not hard to consider someone asking themselves "if NASA is capable of a lie this grand, then how do I know I even live where they tell me I do?" "Where am I really?"

These are sane, logical questions to ask and if that leads someone into exploring Flat Earth, so be it.

[Bill Ryan]

These are sane, logical questions to ask and if that leads someone into exploring Flat Earth, so be it.

Yes. But maybe for no more than half an hour of intelligent thought, backed by verifiable facts (and personal experience!) — all very easily found.

Believing NASA (or not) isn't the point. Maybe we should start by believing Eratosthenes. :)

(Educated people knew the Earth was a globe 2,250 years ago, which means 2,200 years before NASA.)

And if someone's a Flat Earther who claims they've looked into the details, but has never heard of Eratosthenes (and quite a few Flat Earthers haven't) — then there's a real problem with where people to go for their information.

[Sunny-side-up]

.... I have wandered since childhood about the light perspective of sun light.Only close object can cast light in such way

misbis, only a distant light source can cast near parallel shadows.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03/94/13/3941364_8f48db16.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/20/44/7f204432958dc24f7650650e82b227a9.jpg

The closer the light source is the more divergent the resulting shadows.

http://furnitecture.ru/upload/5/4668/18f64958fad14b66649320.jpg

Yes Ewan and that certainly blows big holes in some of the moon landing images ha.

[Kano]

These are sane, logical questions to ask and if that leads someone into exploring Flat Earth, so be it.


Yes. But maybe for no more than half an hour of intelligent thought, backed by verifiable facts (and personal experience!) — all very easily found.
This is a generalization that makes several assumptions and I would respectfully disagree with this entire statement.


(Educated people knew the Earth was a globe 2,250 years ago, which means 2,200 years before NASA.)
Many "educated" (again, a relative term) people of antiquity also believed the earth was flat.


And if someone's a Flat Earther who claims they've looked into the details, but has never heard of Eratosthenes (and quite a few Flat Earthers haven't) — then there's a real problem with where people to go for their information.
I think the point is that unless you've been to space to see the Earth for yourself, we are all just speculating with data given to us by known frauds. One has faith we live on an oblate spheroid or one has faith we live on a flat plane. Each side of the argument believes it has 'verifiable facts'.

I'm not saying I'm a flat earther but I can see it from that perspective.

[daviddjg23]

i know its a globe NASA say ..............:p

An they are really in space not a swimming pool.....:ROFL:

all my life the north star aint moved yet if we are moving so fast surely in 30 years they would be different by now?

[Hervé]

[...]
One has faith we live on an oblate spheroid or one has faith we live on a flat plane. Each side of the argument believes it has 'verifiable facts'.
[...]
When facts are verifiable, one has no need to resort to belief or faith, whatsoever.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Intentions aside, please, for all that's holy, stop riding this bus! The earth is not flat.

Here is the only way it could be flat - if some group of highly intelligent alien entities built it themselves then plopped us all onto it.

The geometry of reality unfolds from the triangle, try it for yourself. It unpacks from two dimensions to three - naturally. And its natural shape is the sphere, again by design. This is not something that can be falsified.

Therefore, if there has been no tampering by god-like beings then we live on a sphere, like all the other heavenly bodies. It is the natural order of things.

No faith needed, just some time, a protractor, a pencil, and some paper. Be your own god, unpack reality for yourself.

addendum: It came to me to point out an interesting and not often talked about fact. As you fold the simple pyramidal shape out of paper, if done right, it becomes evident that there is a missing dimension. There are spaces that the triangle 'folds over' instead of filling. It takes a bit of patience and perseverance but the missing space can be felt and even seen as the folding continues... (hint: it takes extra sides to see clearly, by adding fifth and sixth sides that overlay each other)

[Nick Matkin]

I think the point is that unless you've been to space to see the Earth for yourself, we are all just speculating with data given to us by known frauds. One has faith we live on an oblate spheroid or one has faith we live on a flat plane. Each side of the argument believes it has 'verifiable facts'.


Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement and one that can only be made by someone with zero comprehension of modern engineering, navigation or communications, let alone understanding the observations, basic measurements and a whole community of amateur astronomers!

How can anyone believe the (roughly) spherical shape of the earth is "faith" when they live in a developed nation? This data is given to us by "known frauds"? You need to get out more lad!

It is not speculation FFS!

What are people like you really up to?

(Wasting my time here I know, but I can't help myself... :()

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

The only thing Flat Earthers fear is sphere itself.

I could not resist.

[Foxie Loxie]

Too funny!!! :ROFL:

[Kano]

I think the point is that unless you've been to space to see the Earth for yourself, we are all just speculating with data given to us by known frauds. One has faith we live on an oblate spheroid or one has faith we live on a flat plane. Each side of the argument believes it has 'verifiable facts'.



Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement and one that can only be made by someone with zero comprehension of modern engineering, navigation or communications, let alone understanding the observations, basic measurements and a whole community of amateur astronomers!
I'm sorry you don't understand it. While you mention basic measurements and astronomers, are you aware of how tragically flawed the equation to describe the curvature of the Earth is? My guess is no. And with all our modern engineering and communications, how it is that we can send satellites all over the solar system but we can't take a picture of the entire Earth in one single photo? Not once with all our technological expertise did we just turn Hubble around to take a picture of the Earth? Nope, we just take pictures of parts of the Earth and then assimilate them into the globe we see like a puzzle. How come? Seems that would be easy to do yet we have not done it.


How can anyone believe the (roughly) spherical shape of the earth is "faith" when they in a developed nation? This data is given to us by "known frauds"? You need to get out more lad!
Yes, NASA is a fraud of an agency if there ever was one. I'll try to get out more if you try to educate yourself on both sides of the argument more.:beer:


It is not speculation FFS!
I appreciate your strong opinions. You're passion for your ideas is palpable.


What are people like you really up to?
Well, I work a lot but try to research in my down time. I watch my man Harry Kane every weekend emerge more and more as the best striker in the world. And I try to be a good husband. I'm not some kook as you have insinuated.


Wasting my time here I know, but I can't help myself...
If this is true, not sure why you responded at all.

I have to say I am surprised how much fringe flat earth topics have been met with vitriol here on PA - the place 'chronicling the human awakening.' Instead there are responses like Mr. Matkin's and Praxis's with all kinds of negative insinuations, connotations and outright rudeness. Wonder why considering all of the other topics that get discussed on this site?

[Bill Ryan]

here on PA - the place 'chronicling the human awakening.'

Project Avalon is chronicling that a LOT of people are becoming more awake and aware not only to demonstrable facts, real events, and other phenomena (aided by the internet, for sure), but also to psy-ops of every kind.

But not everyone is becoming more awake and aware. Some, taken in by what they see on the internet, compounded by their lack of knowledge and/or ability to use critical thinking, are not becoming more awake at all, and in some cases may be slipping in the opposite direction.

[misbis]

By the way, the Earth is a sphere. I have flown over frozen Greenland to get to Europe, I have cruised on a ship from Sidney to Hong Kong in March and it went from hot summer to cool spring. It took fourteen hours to fly home. The changes in seasons are perfectly explained by a spherical model as days get shorter as the sphere angles away from the sun. Time zones follow this rule too. The moon is a ball, just use binoculars and you can see. The sun is a ball, the planets are balls, so is the Earth. Flat Earth is a waste of time psy-op diversion.

I have flown too, a lot, been on private ship around.....but I can not say for sure, what is the shape of the earth. But I have wandered since childhood about the light perspective of sun light.Only close object can cast light in such way

You need to stop everything in your life until you sort yourself out. If you truly believe that the earth is flat, which is what you are clearly hinting at, then leave this place and start doing some very simple research.

The whole flat earth idea is ridiculous nonsense by people who have ZERO understanding of anything in the physically reality.

Kano is absolutely correct about the oblate spheroid.

I do not discourage questioning reality at all, but this is so blatantly stupid that I can not comprehend how flat earthers do not drown when looking up at the rain.

Either that or expand upon your cosmology as you clearly understand things about our solar system that we do not. I have no idea what you are talking about how the light cast in such a way from only close objects.

First, define close, as it is relative.

Second, expand upon this light perspective that puzzles you.

You are beating around the bush about Flat Earth ideas and using the UN logo as a means to do so.

Either speak plainly about what you are thinking or dont waste time of the readers.

I said, I don't know what is the shape.I never BELIEVED anything in my life, I have to know. And since the powers to be deceive us, I don't consider the official knowledge for true. So,simply,I don't know. I haven't been in stratosphere high enough to see self what it is

¤=[Post Update]=¤



here on pa - the place 'chronicling the human awakening.'

project avalon is chronicling that a lot of people are becoming more awake and aware not only to demonstrable facts, real events, and other phenomena (aided by the internet, for sure), but also to psy-ops of every kind.

but not everyone is becoming more awake and aware. Some, taken in by what they see on the internet, compounded by their lack of knowledge and/or ability to use critical thinking, are not becoming more awake at all, and in some cases may be slipping in the opposite direction.

i really hope you don't mean me. If so, please send me pm with direct advice.So far,I always have been loyal to Avalon,supported the project ,I-m not here to make problems

[Bill Ryan]

I have to know.

You can know. You don't have to believe a thing. And none of this is to do with NASA.


Just phone a friend in Australia, New Zealand, or Hawaii and ask them if it's day or night. :) (I'm sure many Avalon members in different locations would be willing to help. We can even open a thread where everyone reports in real time what angle the sun (or moon!) is in the sky.)
Next time there's a lunar eclipse, look at the shape of the earth's shadow.
Borrow a telescope. See for yourself that every celestial body is a sphere.
Go on a cruise (or ask someone to take you ocean sailing), and see both land and ships disappear below the horizon as the distance increases.
Get a drone with a GoPro camera at sunset, and see the sun appear to 'rise' again as the camera increases in altitude.

If you do at least some of those, and still don't know, then you're stuck in confusion. (Some people are. They're glued to 'don't know' and seem to regard that as an intellectually strong position to be in. It's not.)

[Wind]

I fail to understand the logic of Flat Earthers or the lack of it should I say.

You can question NASA and you definitely should too, because they are not honest about everything and never have been... But that doesn't mean that they would fake everything. That's just an insane way of thinking. For example they can't fake things like sunspots because people can see them without the help of NASA. Or why would all space imagery be only CGI? Was the space footage filmed in the 60's CGI too? That's literally impossible.

https://www.boredpanda.com/flat-earth-society-mars-answer-elon-musk/

45ZW93IvFJU

[misbis]

I have to know.

You can know. You don't have to believe a thing. And none of this is to do with NASA.


Just phone a friend in Australia, New Zealand, or Hawaii and ask them if it's day or night. :) (I'm sure many Avalon members in different locations would be willing to help. We can even open a thread where everyone reports in real time what angle the sun (or moon!) is in the sky.)
Next time there's a lunar eclipse, look at the shape of the earth's shadow.
Borrow a telescope. See for yourself that every celestial body is a sphere.
Go on a cruise (or ask someone to take you ocean sailing), and see both land and ships disappear below the horizon as the distance increases.
Get a drone with a GoPro camera at sunset, and see the sun appear to 'rise' again as the camera increases in altitude.

If you do at least some of those, and still don't know, then you're stuck in confusion. (Some people are. They're glued to 'don't know' and seem to regard that as an intellectually strong position to be in. It's not.)

I'm going to delete my post,(or ask a moderator to do this)because it was not a point to start such a heavy discussion globe or flat. I just found this old photo ,from 1947 inside UN and for me was interesting and wanted to show others.All what you suggest,Bill, I have done years ago,long ago,before Internet and flat eart clips on youtube. And I have my own questions,but I'm not going to share ,since it is so sensible .

[Bill Ryan]

i really hope you don't mean me. If so, please send me pm with direct advice.So far,I always have been loyal to Avalon,supported the project ,I-m not here to make problems

Thank you. :heart:

My best response may be to cite my other post, where I really did respond to you. :)

Not knowing is sometimes intellectually weak, not intellectually strong. It really is possible to know some things. Knowledge really is power, in many ways.

It's not about loyalty. It's about being willing to learn new things.

I really understand that when you started this thread, you were genuinely puzzled — and had NOT known about that particular map projection before.

But now you do. Several members immediately, and kindly, explained it.

Your own challenge now (and we each encounter this, from time to time) is to integrate that new information, and re-examine what you feel you now know. :flower:



I have to know.

You can know. You don't have to believe a thing. And none of this is to do with NASA.


Just phone a friend in Australia, New Zealand, or Hawaii and ask them if it's day or night. :) (I'm sure many Avalon members in different locations would be willing to help. We can even open a thread where everyone reports in real time what angle the sun (or moon!) is in the sky.)
Next time there's a lunar eclipse, look at the shape of the earth's shadow.
Borrow a telescope. See for yourself that every celestial body is a sphere.
Go on a cruise (or ask someone to take you ocean sailing), and see both land and ships disappear below the horizon as the distance increases.
Get a drone with a GoPro camera at sunset, and see the sun appear to 'rise' again as the camera increases in altitude.

If you do at least some of those, and still don't know, then you're stuck in confusion. (Some people are. They're glued to 'don't know' and seem to regard that as an intellectually strong position to be in. It's not.)

[misbis]

i really hope you don't mean me. If so, please send me pm with direct advice.So far,I always have been loyal to Avalon,supported the project ,I-m not here to make problems

Thank you. :heart:

My best response may be to cite my other post, where I really did respond to you. :)

Not knowing is sometimes intellectually weak, not intellectually strong. It really is possible to know some things. Knowledge really is power, in many ways.

It's not about loyalty. It's about being willing to learn new things.

I really understand that when you started this thread, you were genuinely puzzled — and had NOT known about that particular map projection before.

But now you do. Several members immediately, and kindly, explained it.

Your own challenge now (and we each encounter this, from time to time) is to integrate that new information, and re-examine what you feel you now know. :flower:



I have to know.

You can know. You don't have to believe a thing. And none of this is to do with NASA.


Just phone a friend in Australia, New Zealand, or Hawaii and ask them if it's day or night. :) (I'm sure many Avalon members in different locations would be willing to help. We can even open a thread where everyone reports in real time what angle the sun (or moon!) is in the sky.)
Next time there's a lunar eclipse, look at the shape of the earth's shadow.
Borrow a telescope. See for yourself that every celestial body is a sphere.
Go on a cruise (or ask someone to take you ocean sailing), and see both land and ships disappear below the horizon as the distance increases.
Get a drone with a GoPro camera at sunset, and see the sun appear to 'rise' again as the camera increases in altitude.

If you do at least some of those, and still don't know, then you're stuck in confusion. (Some people are. They're glued to 'don't know' and seem to regard that as an intellectually strong position to be in. It's not.)

Thank you and good night.All this experience with this treat,made me only sad

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Look at the background. UN from 1947,when declare Israel state

36560

PLEASE SOME MODERATOR TO DELETE MY POST. It obviously created a lot of problems between members. Apology.It was not ment

[Bill Ryan]

45ZW93IvFJU

:bump:

What I really respect about Joe Rogan is that he's not dumb at all, he's really very smart. I'd not even heard of the Japanese Himawari 8 satellite, which he mentions.

I looked it up. Nothing to do with NASA. Here it is:


https://himawari8.nict.go.jp

And here's a screenshot... dawn on the Gold Coast of Australia right now, in real time. Go figure. :)

http://projectavalon.net/himawari8.gif

[Bill Ryan]

PLEASE SOME MODERATOR TO DELETE MY POST. It obviously created a lot of problems between members. Apology.It was not ment

Hey, thanks. :bearhug: You were just asking an honest question, and that's all 100% fine.

But now you know about the Azimuthal map projection, which you didn't before.

We can't delete the opening post of a thread, because that deletes the entire thread.

All discussions have to start with something! And if someone else joins in the thread who's a Flat Earth believer, then you didn't personally didn't make that happen.

Any irritation from members towards someone who just can't (or won't) see or understand something that they think is obvious is understandable, and that discussion can sometimes be valuable and interesting.

* If you'd not started this thread, I'd not have learned about the Himawari 8 satellite (see my post immediately above). So there's a good example of how I've learned something, too... :)

[Kano]

here on PA - the place 'chronicling the human awakening.'

Project Avalon is chronicling that a LOT of people are becoming more awake and aware not only to demonstrable facts, real events, and other phenomena (aided by the internet, for sure), but also to psy-ops of every kind.

But not everyone is becoming more awake and aware. Some, taken in by what they see on the internet, compounded by their lack of knowledge and/or ability to use critical thinking, are not becoming more awake at all, and in some cases may be slipping in the opposite direction.

Thanks for that, Bill. This is your forum and a great forum it is - the best actually. But no one person is in a place to say who is becoming more awake and aware and who is not. Further, no one is able to say how one becomes more awake and aware. It would be the height of egotism to assume that someone is in a position to decide those things.

[Ewan]

45ZW93IvFJU

:bump:

What I really respect about Joe Rogan is that he's not dumb at all, he's really very smart. I'd not even heard of the Japanese Himawari 8 satellite, which he mentions.

I looked it up. Nothing to do with NASA. Here it is:


https://himawari8.nict.go.jp

And here's a screenshot... dawn on the Gold Coast of Australia right now, in real time. Go figure. :)

http://projectavalon.net/himawari8.gif

All the technical data (http://spaceflight101.com/spacecraft/himawari-8-and-9/) you could probably want. I went searching because I wondered just how far a satellite would need to go in order to do that, or what kind of imaging system it was using. It seems it still being achieved by a series of images 'stitched' together.
I rather feel, without any expertise, that in order to get a view of the entire planet you'd have to be 'higher' (relative term) than any current satellite is capable of going.

[misbis]

here on PA - the place 'chronicling the human awakening.'

Project Avalon is chronicling that a LOT of people are becoming more awake and aware not only to demonstrable facts, real events, and other phenomena (aided by the internet, for sure), but also to psy-ops of every kind.

But not everyone is becoming more awake and aware. Some, taken in by what they see on the internet, compounded by their lack of knowledge and/or ability to use critical thinking, are not becoming more awake at all, and in some cases may be slipping in the opposite direction.

Thanks for that, Bill. This is your forum and a great forum it is - the best actually. But no one person is in a place to say who is becoming more awake and aware and who is not. Further, no one is able to say how one becomes more awake and aware. It would be the height of egotism to assume that someone is in a position to decide those things.

It WAS a great forum. I'm sure if I was past life regretor or remoteviewer, I would be believed in everything I'm saying. Bill. I'm saying this from the bottom of my heart and from all my love to you- go away from new age direction and delete my profile here.

[Mike]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

[misbis]

These are sane, logical questions to ask and if that leads someone into exploring Flat Earth, so be it.


Yes. But maybe for no more than half an hour of intelligent thought, backed by verifiable facts (and personal experience!) — all very easily found.
This is a generalization that makes several assumptions and I would respectfully disagree with this entire statement.


(Educated people knew the Earth was a globe 2,250 years ago, which means 2,200 years before NASA.)
Many "educated" (again, a relative term) people of antiquity also believed the earth was flat.


And if someone's a Flat Earther who claims they've looked into the details, but has never heard of Eratosthenes (and quite a few Flat Earthers haven't) — then there's a real problem with where people to go for their information.
I think the point is that unless you've been to space to see the Earth for yourself, we are all just speculating with data given to us by known frauds. One has faith we live on an oblate spheroid or one has faith we live on a flat plane. Each side of the argument believes it has 'verifiable facts'.

I'm not saying I'm a flat earther but I can see it from that perspective.

I never said in this post earth IS flat,or supported flat earth theory, even I have researched the arguments and are capable to understand them, and never expected to be meet with such powerful reaction to believe the globe, even my awakening to be questioned ....only because I publish a photo from 1947.

[misbis]

here on PA - the place 'chronicling the human awakening.'

Project Avalon is chronicling that a LOT of people are becoming more awake and aware not only to demonstrable facts, real events, and other phenomena (aided by the internet, for sure), but also to psy-ops of every kind.

But not everyone is becoming more awake and aware. Some, taken in by what they see on the internet, compounded by their lack of knowledge and/or ability to use critical thinking, are not becoming more awake at all, and in some cases may be slipping in the opposite direction.

Thanks for that, Bill. This is your forum and a great forum it is - the best actually. But no one person is in a place to say who is becoming more awake and aware and who is not. Further, no one is able to say how one becomes more awake and aware. It would be the height of egotism to assume that someone is in a position to decide those things.

But no one person is in a place to say who is becoming more awake and aware and who is not. Further, no one is able to say how one becomes more awake and aware. It would be the height of egotism to assume that someone is in a position to decide those things.

[KiwiElf]

@ Kano


But no one person is in a place to say who is becoming more awake and aware and who is not. Further, no one is able to say how one becomes more awake and aware. It would be the height of egotism to assume that someone is in a position to decide those things.

That's your opinion, (...a fairly sweeping one at that ;)), not necessarily a fact. It's relative to what you think you know as opposed to what someone else does know. Exactly what is your opinion based on?

(That's why there are students... and teachers. That's why Grade 1 isn't the same as Grade 6. And generally speaking, that has nothing to do with Ego. :))

I'm saying that as an ex teacher who occasionally had to deal with the smartass student who meme's;

"Those who teach cannot do".

In a very, very few cases that's true. If it were even 50% true (it isn't), then teaching is a pointless art or profession and everyone's "qualifications" are worthless.

Everyone is a student, and everyone is a teacher. Just to varying degrees. ;) :thumbsup:

[ThePythonicCow]

... and delete my profile here.
Ok - if you insist :).

I'll get right on it.

[scott12133]

Here's one more Bill. Start at the equator any place on Earth fly east or west if the Earth is flat as some think then one would eventually run into ice before getting back to their starting point right? I don't know if anyone has done this before but I would think its has been done without finding ice.

[CaptnNemo]

... and delete my profile here.
Ok - if you insist :).

I'll get right on it.

Auto-natural selection!! :thumbsup:

My take on the "earth flaters" (I like creating new terms) is that until they show us ONE video, authentic photo, live feed of the edge of the earth aka boat falling off to god knows where, a person grappling down to...again god knows where or anything the likes, i'll go with the mass on this!! It's frikkin ROUND damnit!!! :bigsmile:

I don't even think that there is hoax videos for what I requested lolll!! so much it does not make sense but there is plenty of the opposite though about our world being round.

Peace out brothers & sisters!! :)

[Bill Ryan]

This is actually a sad state of affairs. misbis, who just asked a genuine question, because she didn't understand map projections and shadows, and is a real sweetie, has now left. She was simply very upset because she felt she'd unintentionally created a disagreement, which is utterly against her nature.

And we can't contact her, because her e-mail address doesn't work. Ugh.

I'll say this here: those who derailed the thread were Kano, and daviddjg23. Till they stepped in with VERY silly views, the discussion had been a very peaceful one, about map projections, and shadow creation from distant light sources, which some may have found interesting and valuable.

:facepalm:

It's actually very difficult. misbis, of course, did reveal her views, about several things, as she became increasingly agitated. Her English isn't perfect, but this
...go away from new age direction and delete my profile herespeaks quite a lot about her belief that the 'New Age Direction' necessarily encompasses Flat Earthism.

Not good, and that's really a discouraging sign of the times.

[ThePythonicCow]

And we can't contact her, because her e-mail address doesn't work. Ugh.
This could serve as a good reminder to all of us:


Make sure you keep a working email address on file with us,
both so that you can fix password problems, and
so that we can contact you if we need to discuss membership issues such as this.

[ThePythonicCow]

After further discussion amongst the moderators ... some of us would rather keep the communication channels open with misbis.

But we can't do that by email, because we don't have a working email address for her.

So I have just now reopened the account of misbis, in hopes that she will return to the forum.

Welcome back, misbis :waving:

[RunningDeer]

Dear misbis,

I’ve got two frothy drinks here. One for you and one for me. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/come-in-hug.gif

With heart,
RunningDeer

P.S. Feel free to PM me. [click here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/private.php?do=newpm&u=10697)]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Love/misbis.gif

[Matthew]

I'm going to trust my gut and put it like this

misbis you asked to leave but collectively we did something wrong. Our objective is to find the truth and be honest and do this together, and you did that... the way the forum responded must have been overwhelming. Please would you forgive us and let us try again?

[Praxis]

I want to apologize for my post. I am sure that it contributed to misbis feeling uncomfortable and attacked.

I let my frustration with the Flat Earth idea get the better of me and it came out at her.

Astroturfing is such an issue these days that I assumed things about the post because it seemed like a way to get to Flat earth without actually talking about flat earth.

I assumed that she must be aware that the map that the UN uses is just a different projection meant to not be any country centric(which I believe is why they chose the projection they did).

So many assumptions which are bad on my part.
So if she does come back.

I apologize for our interactions misbis. We are all seeking truth just like you. It is easy to make assumptions and get aggressive or defensive. I apologize for doing both of those things.

[Jad]

I was surprised how things went downhill fast in this thread.. I hope that we can use it as a learning tool to be less aggressive in trying to express our views. At the end of the day if we are living in a simulation does it really matter if the earth is flat or not? Lol

[ofelas]

Hey everyone! I have been a PC follower since nearly the beginning (2007), and have really appreciated the work of Bill and Kerry, which was crucial in my awakening. I have drifted off the last couple of years, though, because what always happens in instances like these, is that the usual "cult of personality" tendencies, combined with people of importance growing an incredible deep self-awareness, (which is of course based on their body of work), just makes the community agree on a fixed paradigm where growth just does not seem to happen after everyone has learned what they perceive to be the accepted "truth/reality" of the movement.... A fixed paradigm, right?

When I came across the whole "flat earth" concept back in early 2015, I was kind of excited to see what the prominent figures that we all know had to say about this hypothesis. Sadly, I have only observed ridicule from people like Bill, Kerry, David Wilcock, etc. At first I was kind of surprised, as these are supposed to be the people "thinking outside the box", always questioning the mainstream narrative and bring truth to the front. But very shortly, I realized that there is more at stake here. Instead of coming forward and DISPROVING the questions asked by so called "flat-earthers", people like Bill just turn to ridicule, and refuses to address the questions, rather relying on an incredible arrogant "scientific" angle where the mainstream narrative is "obviously more intelligent".. This has made me realize that there is a "cotton-field" in all areas of society, and the alternative community is no better than the mainstream when it comes to presenting its viewpoint. Equally disappointing is how everyone on PA just sucks up to Bill's viewpoint, seemingly terrified of not agreeing with the viewpoint of their leader...

I hope this comment is not taken as anything else than what we all are trying to attempt in this journey on earth: a proof of truth!

So, my question for Bill Ryan and everyone else in PA: please provide scientific proof to the contrary of everything the questions the so called "flat-earthers" are bringing to the surface, and do this without relying on your brainwashing institution NASA, and stop your belittling and arrogant attitude. If you do, please realize that you are just as fixed-minded and arrogant as the people who called YOU crazy in 2006-07 when the PC community claimed that we had a jump-room to Mars and that aliens were being sent back to their home planet through a stargate, etc... Incredible claims that absolutely NOBODY can prove, other than the "whistleblowers" Bill and Kerry had met with...

Peace and love

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Good Lord. With the greatest respect possible, a Flat Earth is scientifically, conceptually, and totally impossible. How could you possibly say there is no proof? If you do not realise yet that the whole Flat Earth movement is just a deliberate PSY-OP to divide, confuse and hijack the real truthseeker groups, I seriously question your discernment levels. It was designed to tarnish the image of the Truth Movement, we – who are trying to get to the bottom of real issues, everything from ghosts, Roswell, Bigfoot, JFK, the SSP, pizzagate – and all the rest of it. Infiltrating the Truth movement with fake conspiracy theories has been a highly effective counter-measure.

It successfully created a phoney argument to muddy the waters and stir dissent. Most off, what it is attempting to do is push those people away who are sitting on the fence about REAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES. Perhaps it is working. Don't let it!

If you haven't found any "proof" yet to support a round Earth, you either haven't looked AT ALL, or you are unable to grasp basic scientific principles (and logic) – or you've fallen through a time vortex from before the 3rd Century B.C. when Eratosthenes proved it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Hellenic_world). Yes, we have known since then that the idea of a Flat Earth is quite simply, to put it mildly, BOLLOCKS.

You really have to start looking into it. Right now. A very good place to start would be here - Go through each and every post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?96181-Are-we-allowed-to-discuss-Flat-Earth-Yet.....

[Hervé]

... relying on an incredible arrogant "scientific" angle where the mainstream narrative is "obviously more intelligent"..???


... please provide scientific proof to the contrary...

... looks like someone painted themselves into a corner by making it impossible to be reached from any angle...

When that individual gets enough basic foundations in fundamental geometry and is able to comprehend what Eratosthenes did (https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/big-history-project/solar-system-and-earth/knowing-solar-system-earth/a/eratosthenes-of-cyrene) a couple of millennia ago... that individual may be able to replicate that experiment by getting a network of friends to take a picture of the shadow length of a 1-yard stick vertically planted (use a plumb line) at the exact same UTC time, from Antarctic circle to Arctic circle... and said individual might learn something?

Meanwhile, before requesting people's attention to be focused on repeating what's been already posted, why doesn't that individual start studying the threads already dedicated to the subject:


'Flat Earth' Psychological Operations (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?94832-Flat-Earth-Psychological-Operations)
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89423-Flat-Earth-Idea-Why-so-popular)
Flat Earth Idea - Why so popular? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89423-Flat-Earth-Idea-Why-so-popular)

Eric Dubay Flat Earth Theory - The Biggest Lie (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?85802-Eric-Dubay-Flat-Earth-Theory-The-Biggest-Lie)

Etc...

...or, do a forum search with earth, flat as keywords...

[norman]

To live successfully outside the law, you have to be very honest and honourable, inside.

To think successfully outside the box, you have be very smart and wise.

[Billy]

Himawari 8 is a Japanese weather satellite which takes 144 photograph's of the entire planet a day. Which i posted here in yet another FE thread in 2015.enjoy.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83765-A-Flat-Earth-not-Round-...&p=995385&viewfull=1#post995385


YsnlNqcjNeE

[ThePythonicCow]

Sometimes a person can get "stuck on stupid" ... unable to understand something.

Sometimes a person "stands on stupid" ... deliberately misrepresenting something, often for a nefarious purpose.

Given how well ofelas articulated the flat earth psy-op in his only two posts here in the last couple of years (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83765-A-Flat-Earth-not-Round-...&p=995024&viewfull=1#post995024) and here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100778-I-don-t-know-what-shape-the-earth-is-but-look-at-this&p=1194220&viewfull=1#post1194220)), I can only hope for his sake that he's standing on stupid ... a liar, not an idiot. For if that be idiocy, then it would be a monumentally disabling case of the affliction.

In any case, we can not serve his present needs well on this forum, and he does not serve us well here. So I have closed his account, with the concurrence of the other moderators discussing this.

[Sunny-side-up]

I was surprised how things went downhill fast in this thread.. I hope that we can use it as a learning tool to be less aggressive in trying to express our views. At the end of the day if we are living in a simulation does it really matter if the earth is flat or not? Lol

Yes well said.
I believe there is a lot to be observed here about human nature and the herd.
If my dad was still alive and I showed him this site complete with our collective views, well he would have thought I was in need of some mental health attention o.0.
Views about our so called reality have changed and are moving fast into and beyond what was once the realm of Science Fiction.

misbis, I think you was asking a real question about a map image that you didn't recognise, but you might have been trying to ask hidden questions about the Flat Earth view point, you might have been in need to ask direct questions without being embarrassed or negatively categorised?

We need to try answer peoples queries with gentle words of understanding and not as one sided minds, flat minds.

We need hold hands and walk gently in these times.

[Foxie Loxie]

The "caring" attitude here on Avalon is what impressed me at the beginning.....let's keep it that way! :flower:

[petra]

Misbis, I can relate to your frustration. I am very hesitant to profess "I know" about anything too. Then once you do know something, and you try to tell people about it, they get mad at you! More frustration. It's like a never ending circle.

I may not be able to say in all honesty that I know the earth is a sphere, but why would I even have to? Bill explained all kinds of ways people can know, and I get it - but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know. In my mind I'd be making an assumption based off the answer to a question, and that's something I am trying to avoid.

I recall thinking sarcastically "Is it even possible for me to know anything?" - and it was out of frustration that I had that thought. Sure there's things we can know, and things that we can't know.

In my mind, the only things I can truly know are all things I've proven to myself over and over. I know I need sleep, I know I need food et cetera. Maybe it's those words in particular that are tricky.

[Nick Matkin]

... but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know.

I am perhaps in a minority (although surely not on PA?), but I find it hard to believe anyone intelligent enough to be able to read, write and use a computer does not understand "the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons..."

Maybe this is the reason for the spread of the many bizarre beliefs now given exposure on the web; i.e. the fact that many, many people really do not have any idea about very basic geography, astronomy or how the world works. This is what happens when people like me exist in a bubble of people with similar education, life experience and interests - we get detached from those who are so different in so many ways.

Didn't Bill once describe meeting a woman who had absolutely no idea what the stars were she could see in the night sky? So you see these people are real. It's not their fault, although to those of us with an interest and awareness of our surroundings, probably find such massive gaps in anyone's fundamental knowledge completely baffling. Well I do anyway.

Unfortunately, in a democracy, where every adult is allowed (or forced) to vote, we overlook these people at our peril...

[DeDukshyn]

... but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know.

I am perhaps in a minority (although surely not on PA?), but I find it hard to believe anyone intelligent enough to be able to read, write and use a computer does not understand "the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons..."

Maybe this is the reason for the spread of the many bizarre beliefs now given exposure on the web; i.e. the fact that many, many people really do not have any idea about very basic geography, astronomy or how the world works. This is what happens when people like me exist in a bubble of people with similar education, life experience and interests - we get detached from those who are so different in so many ways.

Didn't Bill once describe meeting a woman who had absolutely no idea what the stars were she could see in the night sky? So you see these people are real. It's not their fault, although to those of us with an interest and awareness of our surroundings, probably find such massive gaps in anyone's fundamental knowledge completely baffling. Well I do anyway.

Unfortunately, in a democracy, where every adult is allowed (or forced) to vote, we overlook these people at our peril...

I heard it said best this way ...

"Some people know just enough to think they are right, but not enough to know they are wrong."

I really do believe a lot of this stems from lack of proper education in schools these days ... It all seems to be a multi-angle approach and lack of proper education is one of those angles. When the rulers can get us to believe complete nonsense to the point that we fight for those false beliefs, then they know they have complete control. We all know the "elite" have been dumbing-down America and other countries for years now. Welcome to the new age of religion ...

[Mike]

If you assume the earth is spherical and that it rotates, all the phenomena you see and experience around you makes sense. Things like sunsets, ships disappearing over the horizon, and so on.

But in a way I can understand what Petra is saying. I once watched a video presentation suggesting that the planets don't rotate around the sun, instead they trail the sun like a kind of cosmic string, moving in a tight circular orbit as they did so. The speaker sounded intelligent. He had explanations for some of my doubts. He spoke simply but occasionally dropped in some science that I couldn't quite grasp. I walked away from that a little unsure of things for a bit.

Another video I listened to featured a Jewish scholar. A doctor of some sort. The guys' name eludes me now. Limor posted it, I remember that. I can track it down if anyone is sincerely interested. Anyway, he spoke intelligently for an hour or so, and then began talking about concepts of a flat earth, earth rotation etc. This man is also a helicopter pilot, and basically what he was saying was, if the earth really was rotating at 1000 mph, he shouldnt be able to land his chopper on what seemed to be a stationary target. And this is a concept that, admittedly, is tough for me to grasp as well.

So I started reading about it...

And I have to say, none of the stuff I read sounded very coherent. I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph. The articles I read required me to comprehend some science that I just couldn't grasp. I do believe that the earth is spherical (that seems quite obvious for many many reason), and i do believe that it rotates, but the rotation part will always be a little bit confusing to my mind.

Note: also, why the heck does autocorrect keep changing 'believe' to 'beleive'?

[Bubu]

with millions probably billions of cellphone cameras around it would be a lot easier to take selfies at the edge of the flat in times when people fell off the cliff or buildings taking selfies. Why would flat earthers want a picture of the whole earth from space when they can prove their theory without living earth. I can prove earths roundness with scientific means but for the sake of those who does not have enough scientific background this would be an indisputable proof.
can anyone ever believe that with billions of adventurous humans no one has ever been on the edge of earth to take selfies. well of course because there is no edge at all. I use to be a sailor we have powerful binoculars that can see ship disappearing and appearing from the horizon. first and last to appear disappear of a ship from a distant is the satellite antenna. earth is round.
what amazes me however is the effectiveness of the miseducation so much so that many people is unable to see the very obvious. Choosing to disregard ones discernment but rather relying on faith from the explanations of authorities. Its the essence of religion and formal education; faith and recognizing authorities. and then of course we have the vaccines and pills to slow down the processors. Its sad but a lot of humans has lost/ forgotten the use of ones discernment. I work as a profesional handyman, there are people that work for me its common that i have to patiently explain the job. It always amaze me how far my profesional helpers are from my 16 year old boy whenever I take him to work. An old friend told me when I was younger "the best education you can give your children is teach them how to use the imagination"

[Hervé]

I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]
To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth's 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?


Note: also, why the heck does autocorrect keep changing 'believe' to 'beleive'?Dyslexic programmer?

[Nick Matkin]

with millions probably billions of cellphone cameras around it would be a lot easier to take selfies at the edge of the flat in times when people fell off the cliff or buildings taking selfies. Why would flat earthers want a picture of the whole earth from space when they can prove their theory without living earth. I can prove earths roundness with scientific means but for the sake of those who does not have enough scientific background this would be an indisputable proof.
can anyone ever believe that with billions of adventurous humans no one has ever been on the edge of earth to take selfies. well of course because there is no edge at all. I use to be a sailor we have powerful binoculars that can see ship disappearing and appearing from the horizon. first and last to appear disappear of a ship from a distant is the satellite antenna. earth is round.

Indeed, all the flatards have to do is publish one photograph of the edge. Just one, and with their numbers, resources and enthusiasm you'd really think they'd have got their sh!t together by now to do that wouldn't you?

But no. Apparently the entire circumference (and have you seen how many tens of thousands of miles the south-pole-edge circumference is supposed to be?), the ENTIRE circumference is heavily guarded so no one can get near. There must be military ships every few miles to prevent anyone slipping through. That would be thousands of them! Trouble is there are no photos of them, no one knows where the vessels are built, maintained or knows any of the thousands of personnel who must work on them guarding the circumference. Weird...

(In the remote possibility that there are any true Flat Earthers here and you have an edge photo, please let us have a look so people like me will shut the f*** up!)

[Bill Ryan]

I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]
To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?

Yes. It's what's called an 'inertial frame of reference'.

What that means is that everything's traveling at the same speed — the earth, the air, the helicopter, everything.

So landing the helicopter on the ground is as easy as dropping a tennis ball from one hand into the other when you're in a plane traveling at 500 mph.

The air's not moving relative to anything else, so it doesn't matter whether the plane is on the runway, or is an interstellar spacecraft traveling at half the speed of light. INSIDE the plane, it's all the same. (Just as it is on or near the surface of the Earth, when flying a helicopter.)

[petra]

... but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know.

Unfortunately, in a democracy, where every adult is allowed (or forced) to vote, we overlook these people at our peril...

I don't believe democracy works anymore, but I once did. And I don't vote because I feel I don't know enough to vote. Go figure :)

I'm just trying to be honest and I think a lot of it has to do with language and how I will or won't use it.

Someone said poetically in another posting about how our brothers before us layout out foundations (I'm paraphrasing), and how it makes things easier for those who come after. Well we've seen the earth from space now! It looks pretty round to me! Even so, I cannot still say I know it's round - I'd actually feel silly saying so. I can say "I know the earth looks round from space".

For me it's hard to say what something IS or IS NOT. I've yet to figure it out either, but it feels almost like humility. It's almost superstitious too, as if I say it out loud, it'll suddenly become false.

Ever get asked a question and you just feel like saying "How the (insert expletive) should I know?". Well that happens in my head sometimes, and it's kind of annoying (but also a little amusing).

[Hervé]

[..]
For me it's hard to say what something IS or IS NOT....
[...]
Well... if I may... then switch to "degrees of certainty"... how's that now?

[Bill Ryan]

I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]
To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?

Yes. It's what's called an 'inertial frame of reference'.

What that means is that everything's traveling at the same speed — the earth, the air, the helicopter, everything.

So landing the helicopter on the ground is as easy as dropping a tennis ball from one hand into the other when you're in a plane traveling at 500 mph.

The air's not moving relative to anything else, so it doesn't matter whether the plane is on the runway, or is an interstellar spacecraft traveling at half the speed of light. INSIDE the plane, it's all the same.

A little more on this, though it's off-topic. Some might find it very interesting.

Supposing your interstellar spacecraft, traveling at half the speed of light, had headlights? Or a window at the front, where you could shine a spotlight?

How fast would the light beam be going, once it was outside the spacecraft?

That's not a simple question. In fact, it seems to be a paradox, because the speed of light is a constant, no matter where it's measured from.

Think about that for a moment. It's a real pretzel of a brain-twister. :)

Solving that riddle is what led Einstein to the Special Theory of Relativity.

:focus:

[petra]

[..]
For me it's hard to say what something IS or IS NOT....
[...]
Well... if I may... then switch to "degrees of certainty"... how's that now?

110% I can do :) How about 200%.... sure no problem. Just can't say "I know"

[East Sun]

Maybe the speed of light depends on where the light is coming from,
universal light or artificial.

Just a thought.....

[Nick Matkin]

Maybe the speed of light depends on where the light is coming from,
universal light or artificial.

Just a thought.....

What? Er... no.

[Mike]

Thanks Herve and thanks Bill for those explanations.

It makes sense. As a concept, I can grasp that. And I'm as sure as I can be - without being exactly 100% - that it's true

I guess what I was trying to say was, there is a little wiggle room in some of these concepts for doubt (well, if not doubt then at least a little uncertainty). That doesn't make them untrue of course, but it gives the irrational folks something to exploit. And it gives rational people something to get maybe a little hung up on. In other words, I can observe the ship coming over the horizon; I can observe the sunset doing same; I can observe spherical celestial objects. And I can observe many other things...

....but the phenomena of the air sort of moving with the earth is something I can't really observe. If one plugs in the idea of inertial frame of reference, then one can intelligently say to oneself "okay, that makes sense. " But it does require a little bit of trust. It creates just a tiny bit of uncertainty. And I think that's what Petra was saying.

[Apulu]

This seems to have turned into an important thread, for lots of reasons!

I want to add to the sentiments above, that time spent considering other viewpoints, and time spent resisting ridiculing other viewpoints, is time well spent.

I can understand the frustration, I think, in wanting to see the flat earth viewpoint disappear, and quickly. It may not though, and if this is indeed being perpetrated as a psy-op, surely this is exactly the kind of division that is wanted, and expected (or at least one of the divisions).

I think the notion of what is truly knowable, deserves it's own thread, if it hasn't had one already (I'm pretty sure there has been!). If I find the time, I might, perhaps, start one.

To my mind, it seems important to me, personally, to declare the following: based on what I observe, and from the evidence that I've seen, I'm going to operate on the basis that the earth is round. It seems quite sensible. And this goes for many things. To not operate on that bases, and others, seems confusing, and a bit pointless.

There is a big BUT coming. I have a fair amount of trepidation in stating this BUT, but I think it's important. The BUT is, that I cannot say, and I think nor can anyone say, for sure, that the earth is round. Oops, I've said it. It appears that way, but then so does everything: it seems to be this, and it seems to be that. And that's it.

This is really helpful, to my mind, and especially in a debate: to admit, and to see, that I can't be certain about anything. And, I think, neither can anyone.

Again, there are certain things that I think it seems unhelpful not to go along with, and I think a nice round planet is one of them. But outside of your own consciousness, Laurence, what do you KNOW to be true? Answer: not one single thing. I love this perspective, and I REALLY think this is useful, in any argument, and in life, IF used constructively. Hopefully, I've been constructive.

[felix roseczky]

flat earth may be interesting to really ask youreself what do i know, whats my knowledge, and whats second hand knowledge. for me it was very important step in leaving the matrix prison humanity is stucked in.
isnt it like that, that reality is what the mayority believes it is.
light waves appear not to act as what they are if there s no spectator. all particles in universe share the same information of the whole universe. even time doesn t really exist, its just a concept.
out of body travelling, dimensional travelling, cleardreaming (luciddreaming) - all experiences that can hardly be explained with our theory of not much.

is the earth flat? idk
sphere? idk

i know there arent real photos from earth. i know nasa is faking is videos...but this can have many reasons...black budget projects that are financed with iss money...what ever.

i feel this reality is like a puzzle...with every piece the picture becomes more clear and visible.
wouldn t be that suprised to wake up in a stasis tank on a spaceship and realizing we arrived at damn alpha centauri and its time to get back to reallife. really. wouldnt be too suprised.

may gods love be with you, may your paths be blessed by health, peace, joy and amazing experiences. dont let yourself become divided. life as one.


to understand the secrets of the universe we need to think in the terms: frequency, energy and vibration.
nikolai tesla

Life is like a melody, the vibration of energy. god is the very harmonic vibration of high frequent energy, performing the soundtrack of eternity.
The Love frequency.

Om mani padme hum

White Wolf de avalon

[Foxie Loxie]

Speed of Light? I had read(can't remember where) that some scientists had actually slowed down the speed of light in a lab experiment. :confused:

[Mike]

I do want to be clear, just for avalon posterity and anyone reading this thread that even puts a tiny bit of stock into what I say here:) : I'm as certain as I can be that the earth is both spherical and that it rotates.

'Question everything' can start out as the rallying cry of the rebellious intellectual....but please don't confuse it with the mantra of the intellectually blind (or those deliberately trying to deceive)

Too much questioning about something like the shape of the earth, in the face of mountains of evidence suggesting it's spherical nature, isn't rebellious or intellectually curious - it's neurotic and paranoid and just plain obnoxious. It's zealotry.

The earth itself is a fascinating topic. But if we're still stuck in grade school how will we ever learn about her properly? Is someone or something trying to keep us in grade school?

The 'flat earth' is like the toy some people can't grow out of. They're adults but they're still walking arounf with their blankie and a thumb in their mouth. Any attempt at yanking them away only results in more irrationality. It's kind of a catch 22.

As long as there are people out there blabbing about flat earth, I feel it is our duty to blab the truth. Hold the space as they say.

[felix roseczky]

I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.

Maybe take life bit more easy - theres really nothing to be angry or feared about. Everything is how it was ment to be. You re perfect as you are.
We all follow divine ways and rules our little human conciousness is hardly able to follow. Reality is much stranger than fiction.
Where i come from we say like:
Dont **** the earth but make children with her, spread positive and never negative energy.
Why not changing your avatar to a rainbow and feel the love and phantasy a rainbow spreads.

I tend to write loveletters to god and mother earth. its like mindmasage or so....

Lets just respect each other from deep inside. respect each and anyones point of view. we re all from one source. all experiences are worth to be made.
i m grateful for the deepest holes i fall into. so i could climb out of them.

dont feel that youre duty is to attack anyone who has different point of view about earth shape.
imagine: youre eye transforms light waves into a picture. in reality all you see is vibrating energy, in different frequency. an egg and a tennisball are actually made of the same - vibrating energy.
dont waste your mind for defending anything when you can discover new horizons of being.


ONE LOVE

[Mike]

Well you've made a faulty projection here - that I'm angry and fearful and attacking - and you've built a whole post around it.

Btw, My avatar is a villain from a "b" movie with what you might call a small cult following. It's meant to be kind of ironic. But I digress..

Before I forget, are you really jimmy church pretending to be someone else?

Truth is never "negative".
Spreading the truth is never an "attack".
Expressing it isn't "fearful".

Nice try though.

[DeDukshyn]

I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.

Maybe take life bit more easy - theres really nothing to be angry or feared about. Everything is how it was ment to be. You re perfect as you are.
We all follow divine ways and rules our little human conciousness is hardly able to follow. Reality is much stranger than fiction.
Where i come from we say like:
Dont **** the earth but make children with her, spread positive and never negative energy.
Why not changing your avatar to a rainbow and feel the love and phantasy a rainbow spreads.

I tend to write loveletters to god and mother earth. its like mindmasage or so....

Lets just respect each other from deep inside. respect each and anyones point of view. we re all from one source. all experiences are worth to be made.
i m grateful for the deepest holes i fall into. so i could climb out of them.

dont feel that youre duty is to attack anyone who has different point of view about earth shape.
imagine: youre eye transforms light waves into a picture. in reality all you see is vibrating energy, in different frequency. an egg and a tennisball are actually made of the same - vibrating energy.
dont waste your mind for defending anything when you can discover new horizons of being.


ONE LOVE

Mike's not an angry person at all. In fact he keeps his cool, long after many wouldn't be able to in many discussions. You'll get to know his style if you hang around here enough :) We all have a style here that, once known, makes posts much more clear. (except maybe mine, lol) :) In fact I'd say Mike likes to play a little Devil's advocate occasionally (as do I). Something that should always be done once in a while as a reality check.

[Hervé]

[...]

....but the phenomena of the air sort of moving with the earth is something I can't really observe. If one plugs in the idea of inertial frame of reference, then one can intelligently say to oneself "okay, that makes sense. " But it does require a little bit of trust. It creates just a tiny bit of uncertainty. And I think that's what Petra was saying.
Right, and I understand that :)

Now, one has to consider that if the atmosphere doesn't stick with the earth rotation, one would experience 1000mph wind on their windshield 24/365...

Then, resorting to earth not rotating as an explanation and there goes nights and days as well as sunrises and sunsets; that is, when one lives outside of any of the arctic circles... because, there, it's sun circling above the horizon 24/7 for a few months of the year around summer time whereas, anywhere else on earth, days and nights consistently follow each other... how come arctic circles and their 24/7 sunlight don't occur at the equator?

Yet, day + night occur simultaneously to 24/7 sunlight near one of the poles...

Well, there is only one solution to that set of "observations."

So, in order to gain the certainty that one can reach that solution and know it is the only possible one, one does need to understand the basics of fundamental geometry.

Eratosthenes was no MSM mouthpiece but he understood fundamental geometry to solve the dilemma of:
"How come is it that the sun is simultaneously vertical over there when it is at an angle from vertical over here?"
... especially when a plumb line stabilizes exactly perpendicular to any water puddle surface anywhere on earth, whether pole or equator...

[Mike]

[...]

....but the phenomena of the air sort of moving with the earth is something I can't really observe. If one plugs in the idea of inertial frame of reference, then one can intelligently say to oneself "okay, that makes sense. " But it does require a little bit of trust. It creates just a tiny bit of uncertainty. And I think that's what Petra was saying.
Right, and I understand that :)

Now, one has to consider that if the atmosphere doesn't stick with the earth rotation, one would experience 1000mph wind on their windshield 24/365...

Then, resorting to earth not rotating as an explanation and there goes nights and days as well as sunrises and sunsets; that is, when one lives outside of any of the arctic circles... because, there, it's sun circling above the horizon 24/7 for a few months of the year around summer time whereas, anywhere else on earth, days and nights consistently follow each other... how come arctic circles and their 24/7 sunlight don't occur at the equator?

Yet, day + night occur simultaneously to 24/7 sunlight near one of the poles...

Well, there is only one solution to that set of "observations."

So, in order to gain the certainty that one can reach that solution and know it is the only possible one, one does need to understand the basics of fundamental geometry.

Eratosthenes was no MSM mouthpiece but he understood fundamental geometry to solve the dilemma of:
"How come is it that the sun is simultaneously vertical over there when it is at an angle from vertical over here?"
... especially when a plumb line stabilizes exactly perpendicular to any water puddle surface anywhere on earth, whether pole or equator...


All that would make perfect sense if the world wasn't flat.;)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yep, that all makes total sense. I was thinking similar thoughts as this doctor fellow was making his arguments for a stationary earth. He had some wonky explanation for there being no 1000 mph winds in his model, and it was just convincing enough and his credentials were just convincing enough to make me pause a moment. I'm not proud of it LOL.

[daviddjg23]

I really wish i had not commented on this at all i have been looking into both sides of the argument and have learnt lots i really dont care what shape anything is anymore only that people be respectful to each other.:inlove:

i dont find it good at all to feel ive been apart of anyone being removed from here.

Albert Einstein and Leopold Infeld-The Evolution of Physics-"The struggle,so violent in the early days of science,between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless.Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification.The two sentences,'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,'or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest,'would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems."

Albert Einstien,Message on the 410th Anniversary of the Death of Copernicus (1953)-Once it was recognised that the earth was not the centre of the world,but only one of the smaller planets,the illusion of the central significance of man himself became untenable.Hence,Nicolaus Copernicus,through his work and the greatness of his personality,taught man to be honest.

Obviously conspiracies about anything can be created but just because they are created doesn't make them right.:shielddeflect:

[ThePythonicCow]

I really wish i had not commented on this at all i have been looking into both sides of the argument and have learnt lots i really dont care what shape anything is anymore only that people be respectful to each other.
This is not just two "sides of an argument". The ultimate goal, I am convinced, is not just that we all get along and be respectful.

Rather I remain convinced, as I have my entire life, that there really is a reality, and that our ultimate well being depends on how well we understand that reality.

This reality is complex, multi-layered, and both within each of us and "out there". Our puny conscious brains can only glimpse this reality in little snippets at a time, from one vantage point at a time.

But our efforts, collective and individual, to better understand reality, to be more aware at various levels, are paramount, are an essential core of our being.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the "why can't we all just get along" crowd.

[RunningDeer]

I really wish i had not commented on this at all i have been looking into both sides of the argument and have learnt lots i really dont care what shape anything is anymore only that people be respectful to each other.:inlove:

i dont find it good at all to feel ive been apart of anyone being removed from here.

daviddjg23, I didn’t see you as being disrespectful. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/come-in-hug.gif Nor was misbis removed. The moderators respected her request to be unsubscribed. It was unfortunate how it went down.

My guess is the language barrier played a large part in the misunderstanding. misbis has been a member for over six years and only posted 148 times. She probably felt more comfortable to read than write.


Wish you well. You are not forgotten, at all
Kuddos to misbis on a recent thread: Do you want Bill on air regularly? I do. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100531-Do-you-want-Bill-on-air-regularly-I-do.&p=1190310&viewfull=1#post1190310) Based on the number of thanks, 53 members thought her idea is super, too. Her OP not only demonstrates the desire to learn, but it’s a touching acknowledgment of how misbis feels about Bill and his perspectives.


Hello Bill, I wander if you can make from time to time short clips where you share with us your point of view, your reflections of what happen in the world. I will be grateful if you have ones a month for expl. - Bill on the air or something like this [B]Wish you well. You are not forgotten, at all


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Love/misbis2.gif

♡

[Bill Ryan]

I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.


Felix, you've been here less than a week, and you've made less than half a dozen posts. One could be forgiven for getting the impression that you're acting like you know better than others.

You don't... and you don't know Mike at all, who's greatly loved by the members here and has been here for years.

:flower:

:focus:

[Bill Ryan]

This is not just two "sides of an argument".

No, it's not.

Neither is it two sides of any argument to discuss whether my dog is really a cat. :)

[daviddjg23]

Burn them hes a witch burn him:waving:

Obviously i cant win whatever i say.

[Bill Ryan]

I really wish i had not commented on this at all i have been looking into both sides of the argument and have learnt lots i really dont care what shape anything is anymore only that people be respectful to each other.:inlove:

i dont find it good at all to feel ive been apart of anyone being removed from here.

daviddjg23, I didn’t see you as being disrespectful. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/come-in-hug.gif Nor was misbis removed. The moderators respected her request to be unsubscribe. It was unfortunate how it went down.

My guess is the language barrier played a large part in the misunderstanding. misbis has been a member for over six years and posted 148 times. She probably felt more comfortable to read than to post.



Yes, misbis asked to be retired, but her account is still active. She's a lovely person, and we regard her as being in good standing here. We were unable to contact her by e-mail, so we're hoping she sees this and returns to rejoin the community.

ofelas was unsubscribed.

As a matter of policy, we have little patience — maybe none at all! — with diehard hard-core Flat Earthers who are unwilling to think clearly or look at the clear facts literally in front of their noses each time the sun (or moon, or any other celestial body) rises or sets.

If someone's unable to figure things like this out, they may be unlikely to figure out other questions which are almost infinitely more difficult. That very much limits their ability to contribute to the learning of others.

We're happy to entertain members who are sincerely trying to figure things out, and are making progress to be able to answer their own questions.

Good questions are healthy. Good answers are even healthier. :)

NOT making progress, and NOT trying to, is not a healthy condition. It's NOT a statement of wisdom or strength to proclaim that one doesn't know, and wear it like some kind of badge of honor. It's a confession of confusion and/or inability — in some cases. That doesn't support sovereignty, clear thinking, or any kind of inner strength.

It's like someone who can't write, or tell the time. Those holes in our ability to interact meaningfully with the logic of the world do NOT help us to lead proactive lives that matter.

You may have no clue about the shape of the planet, and also be a wonderful mother or father. But please, do NOT try to home-school your children. You'll do them harm. :)

[Mike]

I'm in agreement with Paula. It's easy to forget that language can create misunderstandings when you've never really had to speak any other language besides your native tongue.

..and now I'm feeling a little guilty. My Greek statue palm face post was pretty obnoxious and couldn't have helped matters. Ya know I just saw a bit of miscommunication and felt a little exasperated.

Misbis, if you're out there reading this, I hope you reconsider and return. Please give us another shot. You sent me a friendship request shortly before you left and, although I've been a member here for quite some time, it's still a treat to get one of those. And I think your idea for putting Bill on the air is a fantastic one!

See you soon I hope.

[Isserley]

http://thepythoniccow.us/six_nine_right_wrong.jpg

[KiwiElf]

What the heck is happening??? 352 online>?

[ThePythonicCow]

What the heck is happening??? 352 online>?

Most of the "online users" of this Avalon forum right now are the Chinese Baidu, Microsoft Bing and Chinese Sogou web spiders, each of which are using a number of IP addresses in parallel to scan our site.

Over the last few hours, Baidu has been using 114 IP addrs, Bing has been using 257 IP addrs and Sogou has been using 103 IP addrs, for a total of 474 distinct "users" (IP addresses.)

[KiwiElf]

Looked like a real sudden drop - avg for this time is around 600 - 700????

EDIT: Climbing back to that now?? Please delete my posts if necessary - that was weird ;)

:focus:

[norman]

I'm going to say something that might not go down well with many.

We are increasingly becoming swamped in a kind of ass-backwards kindergarden thinking.

Think of all those children's paintings we see on the walls of primary schools and pre-school centres. It's colorful, usually, and gloriously un lifelike in it's perceptions. Children are encouraged to do it and there seems to be some developmental utility to it, at least according to the "experts". [ that subject probably deserves a discussion thread all on it's own ]

Then shift your ponderings to the internet chattering forums and reality exploration communities that are actually only a few years old. Life's mysteries are endless, and we discuss them, here and elsewhere. Even a crusty old contemplative like me can only draw a picture that's part way true/real to life. We all sketch/think and some of us put our pictures up on the walls.

Something that's changed with the internet is that the primaries and juniors and the mid schoolers are jumbled up together in one space. Add to that the current social engineering fashions that, for example, have created over 40 genders or the trend of manipulatively making "stupid" ( I mean that humorously ) a kind of leadership think thank authority, and we find ourselves at a place where child art thinking is supposed to be aspirational rather than the other way around.

I get brain scrambled every time I watch a flat earther video. it's like child art, but not in an innocent way. It's more like paedopholia of the intellect, and classroom predatory.

[DeDukshyn]

Burn them hes a witch burn him:waving:

Obviously i cant win whatever i say.

Keep that sense of humour intact ... :)

[Wind]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/science-fish_bowl-fishbowl-fish_bowl-aquarium-fish_tank-nfkn273_low.jpg

[Baby Steps]

Yes, so if there is a two-pronged awakening going on , consisting of the following:

1. A shift of some kind whereby increasing numbers of people start to feel at the Soul/Intuitive level that there are a lot of lies or fake realities - that are accepted as real.
2. This is accompanied by a growing feeling that the information we are fed cannot be trusted, because there are forces at work that WANT us to remain ignorant, and we begin to see why

Then we get many people discounting reality, and disappearing down false rabbit holes, because they rightly do not trust what they are told. We get the forces that thrive on propagating false reality EXPLOITING this process to lay traps, and pepper new information with falsehood.

What to do?

Why not have a forum where people with sufficiently high knowledge, expertise, and discernment, who are open to knew information and realities, can discuss & debate things openly to try and resolve things- and sort the wheat from the chaff. If we do this, then each time a brave person expresses confusion and asks questions openly, we recognise it as an opportunity to assist learning for the benefit of the wider community. We celebrate the brave individuals who ask questions fearlessly and thank them.

Oh.....

[Apulu]

NOT making progress, and NOT trying to, is not a healthy condition. It's NOT a statement of wisdom or strength to proclaim that one doesn't know, and wear it like some kind of badge of honor. It's a confession of confusion and/or inability — in some cases. That doesn't support sovereignty, clear thinking, or any kind of inner strength.

It's like someone who can't write, or tell the time. Those holes in our ability to interact meaningfully with the logic of the world do NOT help us to lead proactive lives that matter.



I'm not going to assume that you're directly referring to me here Bill, but as I've recently said that I don't know, for sure, that the Earth is round, it's a little hard not to. Maybe I can clarify what I mean by that, and why I said it.

Hopefully you, and others, can see that I'm not saying "I don't know" in support of flat earth, or just to be contrary, and have another opinion, for the sake of it. I've said the following in my post on page 4 already, but just to be clear: I would agree, that it would be pretty unreasonable of me, from what I've so far deduced, NOT to operate on the basis that the earth is round. It certainly seems to be.

The reason I would, however, insist that I don't know this for certain, was maybe not explained very well, by me. Maybe it's not something to go into much here - it's perhaps way more contentious than I thought it was.

I'd like you, and others, to know my reasons for bringing the topic of "not knowing" into this thread though.

To my mind, it's more than reasonable to assume that the earth is round, and to bring in any number of arguments with someone who insists that it's flat. And I can see that if someone continues to insist that it's flat, whilst trying to convince others that it's flat, it's not going to go down very well here, and I think with good reason.

But for someone to insist that they know, for certain, that it's round, whilst ridiculing another persons flat-view, doesn't sit very well with me. And so I found myself trying to point out that we are all in the same boat here, in a way, no matter what we believe.

There are certain things that seem beyond reasonable doubt. To question them, for the sake of it, or to question them without properly considering solid and well thought out arguments, seems pretty pointless.

If, however, someone insists that they know things for certain, and is also treating another belief with contempt, or at least strong incredulity, I would advise them to look at their own beliefs. Something that is beyond reasonable doubt is never beyond doubt itself, and can't be.

Whilst we use our senses, or any instrument, to perceive what is "outside" of consciousness, how can we be CERTAIN about anything outside of consciousness itself? This argument, to my mind, is infallible, but, I would agree, has limited use in a thread like this.

Again, if anyone insists that they know anything for certain, whilst pointing the finger at another person's "wrongness", I may have to insist that they don't actually know anything, for certain, and neither does anyone.

[petra]

...i really dont care what shape anything is anymore only that people be respectful to each other.

My thoughts exactly! Isn't that funny. Arguing about shapes is almost as foolish as arguing about colors. Is it blue or green? Teal or turquoise? I feel like I want to punch myself in the face already :)

[petra]

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the "why can't we all just get along" crowd.

I agree with you Paul, being able to debate without flying off the handle is the only way to get things to move forward. I'm just totally mind boggled at the semantics of flat earth.

[Hervé]

Well... there is that thing that walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, dives like a duck, flies like a duck, etc... and, according to some intellectual view of the universe, one cannot attain the certainty and knowledge that it is NOT a Siberian tiger?

There is that other thing called a 3D physical universe that's not to be confused with some enchanted personal universe in which one could pick an apple from an orange tree and taste like a pine apple... and happily debate with anyone that it couldn't be an apple nor an orange nor even a pine apple... only the fruit of one's fertile imagination!

[Apulu]

Well... there is that thing that walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, dives like a duck, fly like a duck, etc... and, according to some intellectual view of the universe, one cannot attain the certainty and knowledge that it is NOT a Siberian tiger?

There is that other thing called a 3D physical universe that's not to be confused with some enchanted personal universe in which one could pick an apple from an orange tree and taste like a pine apple... and happily debate with anyone that it couldn't be an apple nor an orange nor even a pine apple... only the fruit of one's fertile imagination!

Do you really want to debate this?! To my mind it kind of goes nowhere, except, ehm, nowhere. Loved all the animals and fruits.

Why bring Siberian tigers into it (other than cos it was quite funny)? It's a duck. The question is, what's a duck? What the hell is an intellectual view of the universe? Other than a really silly one?

Is there a 3D physical universe? What's physical? What's a universe?

I will indeed debate with anyone who insists they are not dreaming their 'reality'. Perhaps not for very long though. If my apple is a pineapple to you, fair enough. Just don't insist it's a pineapple. My apple tastes great.

[Kano]

I'll say this here: those who derailed the thread were Kano, and daviddjg23. Till they stepped in with VERY silly views, the discussion had been a very peaceful one, about map projections, and shadow creation from distant light sources, which some may have found interesting and valuable.

The very title of this thread suggests that the OP was trying to explore different perspectives about the place we live. Derailed? Not hardly.

Silly views? Why because I don't worship the religion of science? Because I dare question the mainstream "truth?"

I too am surprised this forum isn't open to a discussion about this - very surprised. However, souls that used to live on Mars that came to Earth in stones and reincarnated in a 10 year old boy - of course, let's make a video about that (and many, many other topics which are far more "out there" than questioning where we live).

This is not a fair and balanced approach to chronicle the human awakening.

I respect you a great deal, Bill. But this is quite out of character for the person whose work I have followed for over a decade.

I make these comments in the spirit of growth and understanding and my wish is that they are not received any other way.

[Bill Ryan]

Looked like a real sudden drop - avg for this time is around 600 - 700????

EDIT: Climbing back to that now?? Please delete my posts if necessary - that was weird ;)

:focus:



Burn them hes a witch burn him:waving:

Obviously i cant win whatever i say.

Keep that sense of humour intact ... :)

From the mods' running 24/7 Skype chat:

~~~



Bill: Hey, Paul, is it okay to delete the aside (started by KiwiElf) on the Flat Earth thread about the number of visitors?
Paul: Sure - if you want - doesn't matter to me
(That or change the subject to "forum visitor count", and delete the other 95 posts :bigsmile: )
Bill: Ha! :p
Yes.... no big deal here. (That thread could veer off anywhere, anyway, like a wonky shopping cart with a bad wheel)
Paul: ... with square wheels :)
Square wheels are to round wheels as flat earths are to round earths
I should start a thread, done in a serious technical/scientific tone, proving that the earth is not flat and round, but flat and square.
But before I do that, I'd better make sure Bill's magnesium intake is high, so that his heart rhythm is stable under stress
Bill: Well, maybe it's a cube. Then there could be six separate civilizations all living here, and none of them would know about the others.
Paul: ah - cube - genius
Bill: (cube) — that's where the Mayans went: they disappeared over the edge, and relocated
(Maybe the Nazis did that, too)
The problem with posting jokes like this is that some people would probably believe it...
:focus:

[Mike]

Bill I wish you would post more mod chats! They're fun to read and a a great laugh!

For Kano,
I hear you. But using your example there, I would say that things like a soul coming to earth in a rock and reincarnating as a 10 yr old boy ( is that really a thread topic here? LOL) or any of the other fantastical things that are often discussed here, are left alone mainly because they're open ended. In other words, they cannot be definitively disproven. They occupy a kind of paranormal niche that resists black and white judgements. It's nebulous. Whereas the shape of the earth is pretty well proven.

Having said that, I've seen the mods and/or Bill come down pretty firmly on some of those silly threads and posts as well. No one has the time to address all of them of course.

The issue is, if we can't agree on some very basic, fundamental things, we have no point of relativity from which to operate from and we just kind of flail in the wind. Its important to have a foundation. Saying "well we can't prove anything ultimately so why try?" may have some deep spiritual relevance, but it leaves us with zero intellectual integrity. And while we're here in 3d, we need points of relativity and intellectual integrity. It's part of the rules of the game here.

Imagine if we brought that existential attitude to a murder trial LOL! "Yes we've got motive and DNA blood evidence and 3 witnesses to the murder, but ultimately we cant really prove anything so ...(shrug)....case closed..."

There's a time and a place for head in the clouds and there's a time and a place for feet on the ground. The wisdom is in knowing the difference

[Apulu]

Bill I wish you would post more mod chats! They're fun to read and a a great laugh!

For Kano,
I hear you. But using your example there, I would say that things like a soul coming to earth in a rock and reincarnating as a 10 yr old boy ( is that really a thread topic here? LOL) or any of the other fantastical things that are often discussed here, are left alone mainly because they're open ended. In other words, they cannot be definitively disproven. They occupy a kind of paranormal niche that resists black and white judgements. It's nebulous. Whereas the shape of the earth is pretty well proven.

Having said that, I've seen the mods and/or Bill come down pretty firmly on some of those silly threads and posts as well. No one has the time to address all of them of course.

The issue is, if we can't agree on some very basic, fundamental things, we have no point of relativity from which to operate from and we just kind of flail in the wind. Its important to have a foundation. Saying "well we can't prove anything ultimately so why try?" may have some deep spiritual relevance, but it leaves us with zero intellectual integrity. And while we're here in 3d, we need points of relativity and intellectual integrity. It's part of the rules of the game here.

Imagine if we brought that existential attitude to a murder trial LOL! "Yes we've got motive and DNA blood evidence and 3 witnesses to the murder, but ultimately we cant really prove anything so ...(shrug)....case closed..."

There's a time and a place for head in the clouds and there's a time and a place for feet on the ground. The wisdom is in knowing the difference

I would tend to agree. For the earth-shape debate, "don't know, can't know", seems about as useful as a frying pan made of margarine. For my part in this "can't know anything" bit, I was attempting to use it as a way of asking some slightly over-zealous round-earther's to go easy a bit. I don't think it worked. But it's been interesting!

[Bill Ryan]

I'm not going to assume that you're directly referring to me here Bill

I was referring primarily to felix roseczky, Kano and daviddjg23.

It's okay for someone to say that they're in the process of reviewing information in order to reach a conclusion. That's admirable. It means they're willing to do a little work.

So in this case (to these three I named, but maybe there are others lurking here), please come back tomorrow and let us know what you've decided, and (out of interest) how long it took you to reach a decision, and why.

Longer than that, and there's something wrong. As I wrote earlier, it should take no more than half an hour flat (so to speak :) ), if one WANTS to decide.

And I say the latter advisedly. Don't wear your indecision like a badge of honor.

That's just wearing a T-shirt with I'm dumb... on the front with ... and determined to stay that way on the back.


Bill I wish you would post more mod chats! They're fun to read and a a great laugh!

We do have some fun sometimes. But the jokes, which are occasionally quite clever, are quirky with no malice directed at anyone. I have to say, though, we do get a little frustrated now and then — and humor is often the antidote.

At other times we discuss things of considerable seriousness, and, maybe several times a year, we find ourselves troubleshooting heavy-duty backchannel intrigues that reach us via various means. And, contrary to some rumors, we care about people in the community here far more than many might readily believe. We probably spend more time trying to get things right, for individuals and for everyone, than maybe even all the other forums put together.

But, in general, we don't suffer fools gladly. To reiterate what I said above, in a different way:


It's fine to be a fool occasionally. We can all get things wrong. But don't make it a permanent condition.

We'll simply relocate you on another facet of the Earth Cube (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100778-I-don-t-know-what-shape-the-earth-is-but-look-at-this&p=1194593&viewfull=1#post1194593), where (a) we can't see you and (b) we won't have to deal with you any more. :)

[KiwiElf]

LOL - sorry Paul & Bill - stuck it on here at the time so it would be at the top of "recent posts" - (couldn't be sure Paul would see it otherwise, he had his cloaking sphere on...) :p ...I realise what it was now; the Earth tilted momentarily & the visitors fell off the edge,... (delete, delete!) :laser: :)

:focus:

[Cardillac]

I still can't believe there are 6 pages on this forum discussing whether the earth is flat or not- am I on the wrong forum?

Larry

[Kano]

So in this case (to these three I named, but maybe there are others lurking here), please come back tomorrow and let us know what you've decided, and (out of interest) how long it took you to reach a decision, and why.

I can say that I am in the process of doing the research. So, I will not have any decision to report tomorrow. But what I can provide, once I get a little more free time, are things that were head scratchers for me regarding the ball Earth. Maybe once I provide my evidence for why I decided to take this research on, you and others of the same mindset can chime in with the evidence you have to make counter claims vis a vis a healthy discussion on the nature of reality.

That is all I've ever wanted and that's why I have been here since the beginning of PC and PA1.

Moreover, I see there are several members who do not want a flat earth conversation on this thread (or maybe this entire forum). So if it is more appropriate, perhaps a new thread can be started if it will be allowed to be discussed here at PA.

[KiwiElf]

Ahhhh Larry, there's even two newer psyop variations running now: ;)

1. The Earth is convex,
2. We all live under a dome

:doh: It's like the Nigerian scam... *mutter* *mutter*

[Tintin]

I still can't believe there are 6 pages on this forum discussing whether the earth is flat or not- am I on the wrong forum?

Larry

Larry, that was funny, and you are definitely on the right forum: you're in the right place :waving:

A part of me does wonder whether the very idea of flat earth should be entertained at all here. I mean, it is really a very silly notion indeed, and, as rightly determined quite some time ago, and not just in this community, is a very naughty piece of psy-op indeed. Oh dear.

I, if I ran a forum, wouldn't entertain it at all, but, in the spirit of creating an environment where people can express a view about this, at all, I do get where we're at here. For now, I'm treating it, the very idea of flat earth at all, absolutely mainly as entertainment and I do appreciate the humour, certainly from Bill, underpinning some commentary on the thread. In many ways the very idea of flat earth, well, really is extremely entertaining and silly, and, who couldn't laugh. It doesn't preclude anyone from grappling with the idea of it, of course. Personally, I simply can't. For me it is a piece of comedy.

Yep, we do care here, enormously, and respect others' views, but do have a sense of humour too. Let's enjoy these moments ;)

To parody a film title: A Funny thing Happened on the Way Through the Forum.

On a slightly more contemplative note, I do think misbis was coming from a genuinely sweet and decent place and could have been made to feel less intimidated. I hope she does return.
With love

:highfive:

[Hazelfern]

Misbis will certainly bail after all of these shenanigans, if she hasn't already.

> I do not want her to bail, I would really like to see her post again. <

:bearhug:

[bobme]

http://www.urdumania.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/lunar-eclipse-definition-and-explanation.jpg Just trying to help.

Now, if the earth is flat, Where is the straight line? The shadow is the earth, understand. You can see it in real life with your eyes, apologies to those that are truely blind, or have vision problems, yet I see a curve in the shadow of the earth on the moon.

Why is there no Straight line? If the earth is indeed flat, Would there not be a flat line on the moon, as opposed to the obvious curved line we see? Love ya all. But please explain if you can answer me.

[SKAWF]

I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]
To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?

Yes. It's what's called an 'inertial frame of reference'.

What that means is that everything's traveling at the same speed — the earth, the air, the helicopter, everything.

So landing the helicopter on the ground is as easy as dropping a tennis ball from one hand into the other when you're in a plane traveling at 500 mph.

The air's not moving relative to anything else, so it doesn't matter whether the plane is on the runway, or is an interstellar spacecraft traveling at half the speed of light. INSIDE the plane, it's all the same.

A little more on this, though it's off-topic. Some might find it very interesting.

Supposing your interstellar spacecraft, traveling at half the speed of light, had headlights? Or a window at the front, where you could shine a spotlight?

How fast would the light beam be going, once it was outside the spacecraft?

That's not a simple question. In fact, it seems to be a paradox, because the speed of light is a constant, no matter where it's measured from.

Think about that for a moment. It's a real pretzel of a brain-twister. :)

Solving that riddle is what led Einstein to the Special Theory of Relativity.

:focus:

okay,

initially i would say that if one was travelling at the speed of light, with the old high beam on,
then it would be the speed of light, plus the speed of travel.

however, as one is already travelling at the speed of light
ones headlights would also be travelling at light speed

so that when you switch them on, the light would ONLY be travelling at light speed

which suggest's to my recently fried brain, that the speed of light is relative, and possibly subjective.

that said, what if a neutral , stationary observer were to observe an object travelling at light speed, with its headlights on?

BTW i love the way you ended that post with a 'back to topic' emoji!

[felix roseczky]

I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.


Felix, you've been here less than a week, and you've made less than half a dozen posts. One could be forgiven for getting the impression that you're acting like you know better than others.

You don't... and you don't know Mike at all, who's greatly loved by the members here and has been here for years.

:flower:

:focus:

one love brother.

so i shall stfu? is that what you try to tell me? if this is common sense in this space i m probably wrong here.


you know bill ryan
i do know that i do not know. i see the existence like a child. eyes wide open.

may gods love be with you

[Wind]

Once space travel becomes cheap and easy to do for everyone, silly threads like this can be put to rest and people will surely KNOW better instead of just guessing.

[Hervé]

:offtopic:


[...]
... what if a neutral , stationary observer were to observe an object travelling at light speed, with its headlights on?
[...]
Well, would it be even possible for the headlights to even turn on? Since the object carrying the headlights goes as fast as lights emitting from it... wouldn't some sort of "light barrier" be created, as an equivalent to "sound barrier"?

:focus:

[Bill Ryan]

...which suggest's to my recently fried brain, that the speed of light is relative, and possibly subjective.



Yes, it's constant relative to any observer. That's why Einstein called it the 'Theory of Relativity'.

@ Loxie: Light does vary its speed a little, when passing through various substances sometimes. But it's always the same in a vacuum, no matter who's measuring it or how fast they're traveling in any direction. That's all highly weird, and needed some very clever math, and a bunch of new concepts, to resolve the paradox. That's what made Einstein famous.

[Bill Ryan]

so i shall stfu? is that what you try to tell me?

Yes, please. (When it comes to judging other members whom you don't know yet.)


if this is common sense in this space i m probably wrong here.

Yes, you are. It's common sense that my dog is a dog. Not a cat. I can see that, and if you met my dog, so could you.


i see the existence like a child. eyes wide open.

But a child could also see my dog is a dog. :)

Children ask good questions. But smart children are willing to learn fast.

It's fine for a 3 year old (or even a 6 year old) to think the Earth may be flat, and ask questions about it. But if a 33 year old thinks the Earth is flat, it simply means they've not learned much the past 30 years.

[Apulu]

so i shall stfu? is that what you try to tell me?

Yes, please. (When it comes to judging other members whom you don't know yet.)


if this is common sense in this space i m probably wrong here.

Yes, you are. It's common sense that my dog is a dog. Not a cat. I can see that, and if you met my dog, so could you.


i see the existence like a child. eyes wide open.

But a child could also see my dog is a dog. :)

Children ask good questions. But smart children are willing to learn fast.

It's fine for a 3 year old (or even a 6 year old) to think the Earth may be flat, and ask questions about it. But if a 33 year old thinks the Earth is flat, it simply means they've not learned much the past 30 years.

Bill, with humble respect, I think this is too strong. I don't really want to be involved in this particular discussion any more, but as far as I have been, I don't think I can let this go. And it pains me to be 'at odds' with you here. I feel there's is a certain amount of unfairness going on surrounding this thread, and I personally don't think felix, and a few others, deserve this treatment.

As far as I can tell, I think what felix has said, that you're referring to here, is similar to what I've said: something along the lines of "no one can know anything for certain, so what's the point in getting upset with anyone, who believes anything?"

I agree, that in a specific debate about earth shape, or countless other things, this argument is REALLY not very helpful. But in a situation where beliefs are being attacked, ridiculed and belittled, I think is. Vitally important, in fact. I think this is where, sometimes, a confusion has been happening.

I think it's unhelpful, in the extreme, to refer to people as children, who don't go with a round earth model. If indeed that's what you were doing. It might seem painfully obvious to you, and others, but to some it's obviously not.

You know, funnily enough, I can't help but see anyone who isn't able to grasp that they can't know ANYTHING for CERTAIN, as a bit child like. Reasoning about what it's possible to know, leads to this: nothing, outside of one's own consciousness, can ever be fully verified, or fully proven, or fully stated as fact. But for some (possibly most) this seems impossible to acknowledge.

If you're as intolerant as you seem to be about flat-earth theories, why not make an Avalon declaration of some kind, that people could be referred to. Then people would know what to expect if they push an agenda of wanting to debate it, and it might save on 7 pages of hoolabagooba :) Just a thought.

[Bill Ryan]

what's the point in getting upset with anyone, who believes anything?"



It's a psy-op which has been introduced into the alternative community to make it look foolish and un-credible.

It makes Avalon looks foolish and un-credible as well, and the mods team will absolutely draw certain lines in the sand.

That's why we have membership applications. If anyone applied to join, and told us they were a diehard Flat Earther, we'd decline their application immediately. If we were to approve them, no-one would win.

[DeDukshyn]

so i shall stfu? is that what you try to tell me?

Yes, please. (When it comes to judging other members whom you don't know yet.)


if this is common sense in this space i m probably wrong here.

Yes, you are. It's common sense that my dog is a dog. Not a cat. I can see that, and if you met my dog, so could you.


i see the existence like a child. eyes wide open.

But a child could also see my dog is a dog. :)

Children ask good questions. But smart children are willing to learn fast.

It's fine for a 3 year old (or even a 6 year old) to think the Earth may be flat, and ask questions about it. But if a 33 year old thinks the Earth is flat, it simply means they've not learned much the past 30 years.

Bill, with humble respect, I think this is too strong. I don't really want to be involved in this particular discussion any more, but as far as I have been, I don't think I can let this go. And it pains me to be 'at odds' with you here. I feel there's is a certain amount of unfairness going on surrounding this thread, and I personally don't think felix, and a few others, deserve this treatment.

As far as I can tell, I think what felix has said, that you're referring to here, is similar to what I've said: something along the lines of "no one can know anything for certain, so what's the point in getting upset with anyone, who believes anything?"

I agree, that in a specific debate about earth shape, or countless other things, this argument is REALLY not very helpful. But in a situation where beliefs are being attacked, ridiculed and belittled, I think is. Vitally important, in fact. I think this is where, sometimes, a confusion has been happening.

I think it's unhelpful, in the extreme, to refer to people as children, who don't go with a round earth model. If indeed that's what you were doing. It might seem painfully obvious to you, and others, but to some it's obviously not.

You know, funnily enough, I can't help but see anyone who isn't able to grasp that they can't know ANYTHING for CERTAIN, as a bit child like. Reasoning about what it's possible to know, leads to this: nothing, outside of one's own consciousness, can ever be fully verified, or fully proven, or fully stated as fact. But for some (possibly most) this seems impossible to acknowledge.

If you're as intolerant as you seem to be about flat-earth theories, why not make an Avalon declaration of some kind, that people could be referred to. Then people would know what to expect if they push an agenda of wanting to debate it, and it might save on 7 pages of hoolabagooba :) Just a thought.

If I may ...

"no one knows anything for certain" - addressed by Herve previously ... there are certainly degrees of certainty. The level of those degrees is dependent on the knowledge, education, experience, reasoning abilities, and ability to do critical thinking and/or deductive reasoning. Not everyone is equal in these areas, that's fine, but failure to recognize how degrees of certainty relate to these aspects is disingenuous. Any can believe what they want, but it's how they can express themselves within their ability to maintain a degree of certainty, and not overreaching it, that makes the difference.

Understanding and knowing what you don't know has equal importance to what you think you know. Understanding what you don't know, gives you insights into where you should be placing your degrees of certainty. It is fine for someone to say "I don't know for certain within my degrees of certainty" -- doesn't mean people should project that onto others.


Bill didn't refer to Felix as a child, he was extending an example within Felix's own reference to seeing the world through a child's eyes.


There's a fine line between intolerance and impatience for people unwilling to look deeper and more broadly. How many flat earther's tried to prove the earth was a sphere, just so they can say they know both sides of the argument before concluding? I'd say zero.

I personally have watched all Mark Sargent's videos, and explored to death flat earth theories, and I can see why some people can be led to believing this, but I can also see fully how the evidence for a flat earth is almost nothing compared to the evidence (within my degrees of certainty, based on my education, experience, understanding of physics, etc.) for a sphere earth. It's like a thousand to one. If flat earther's learned and experienced all they needed to to be able to at least try to prove the earth is a sphere, they will be surprised to see how much supporting and corroborating evidence there is. The problem is most flat earther's can't or don't do this.

All the evidence for the sphere earth supports other evidence in a synergistic way. This cannot be said at all for flat earth evidence - it's random bites here and there, that have come out of a lack of understanding of some fundamental, and provable concepts.

[FreeURmind]

.............

It's neither. But both.

[Apulu]

so i shall stfu? is that what you try to tell me?

Yes, please. (When it comes to judging other members whom you don't know yet.)


if this is common sense in this space i m probably wrong here.

Yes, you are. It's common sense that my dog is a dog. Not a cat. I can see that, and if you met my dog, so could you.


i see the existence like a child. eyes wide open.

But a child could also see my dog is a dog. :)

Children ask good questions. But smart children are willing to learn fast.

It's fine for a 3 year old (or even a 6 year old) to think the Earth may be flat, and ask questions about it. But if a 33 year old thinks the Earth is flat, it simply means they've not learned much the past 30 years.

Bill, with humble respect, I think this is too strong. I don't really want to be involved in this particular discussion any more, but as far as I have been, I don't think I can let this go. And it pains me to be 'at odds' with you here. I feel there's is a certain amount of unfairness going on surrounding this thread, and I personally don't think felix, and a few others, deserve this treatment.

As far as I can tell, I think what felix has said, that you're referring to here, is similar to what I've said: something along the lines of "no one can know anything for certain, so what's the point in getting upset with anyone, who believes anything?"

I agree, that in a specific debate about earth shape, or countless other things, this argument is REALLY not very helpful. But in a situation where beliefs are being attacked, ridiculed and belittled, I think is. Vitally important, in fact. I think this is where, sometimes, a confusion has been happening.

I think it's unhelpful, in the extreme, to refer to people as children, who don't go with a round earth model. If indeed that's what you were doing. It might seem painfully obvious to you, and others, but to some it's obviously not.

You know, funnily enough, I can't help but see anyone who isn't able to grasp that they can't know ANYTHING for CERTAIN, as a bit child like. Reasoning about what it's possible to know, leads to this: nothing, outside of one's own consciousness, can ever be fully verified, or fully proven, or fully stated as fact. But for some (possibly most) this seems impossible to acknowledge.

If you're as intolerant as you seem to be about flat-earth theories, why not make an Avalon declaration of some kind, that people could be referred to. Then people would know what to expect if they push an agenda of wanting to debate it, and it might save on 7 pages of hoolabagooba :) Just a thought.

If I may ...

"no one knows anything for certain" - addressed by Herve previously ... there are certainly degrees of certainty. The level of those degrees is dependent on the knowledge, education, experience, reasoning abilities, and ability to do critical thinking and/or deductive reasoning. Not everyone is equal in these areas, that's fine, but failure to recognize how degrees of certainty relate to these aspects is disingenuous. Any can believe what they want, but it's how they can express themselves within their ability to maintain a degree of certainty, and not overreaching it, that makes the difference.

Understanding and knowing what you don't know has equal importance to what you think you know. Understanding what you don't know, gives you insights into where you should be placing your degrees of certainty. It is fine for someone to say "I don't know for certain within my degrees of certainty" -- doesn't mean people should project that onto others.


Bill didn't refer to Felix as a child, he was extending an example within Felix's own reference to seeing the world through a child's eyes.


There's a fine line between intolerance and impatience for people unwilling to look deeper and more broadly. How many flat earther's tried to prove the earth was a sphere, just so they can say they know both sides of the argument before concluding? I'd say zero.

I personally have watched all Mark Sargent's videos, and explored to death flat earth theories, and I can see why some people can be led to believing this, but I can also see fully how the evidence for a flat earth is almost nothing compared to the evidence (within my degrees of certainty, based on my education, experience, understanding of physics, etc.) for a sphere earth. It's like a thousand to one. If flat earther's learned and experienced all they needed to to be able to at least try to prove the earth is a sphere, they will be surprised to see how much supporting and corroborating evidence there is. The problem is most flat earther's can't or don't do this.

All the evidence for the sphere earth supports other evidence in a synergistic way. This cannot be said at all for flat earth evidence - it's random bites here and there, that have come out of a lack of understanding of some fundamental, and provable concepts.

You may - that was brilliantly put. Can't disagree with any of that, and I got some genuine insight to boot. Thanks for that.

My quibble here is with a seeming lack of respect in handling other people's beliefs. I can understand the need to be firm if someone is blatantly disregarding evidence and reasoning, but in a few cases, I wasn't seeing that.

I may have been too quick to accuse Bill of referring to people as children, but I still feel the inference is there. Perhaps it's not.

Anyhoo. Hopefully this thread will go away soon :)

[Kano]

I feel there's is a certain amount of unfairness going on surrounding this thread, and I personally don't think felix, and a few others, deserve this treatment.
True.


I think it's unhelpful, in the extreme, to refer to people as children, who don't go with a round earth model.
Truer.


If you're as intolerant as you seem to be about flat-earth theories, why not make an Avalon declaration of some kind, that people could be referred to. Then people would know what to expect if they push an agenda of wanting to debate it, and it might save on 7 pages of hoolabagooba :) Just a thought.
Truest.

[Matthew]

...
Anyhoo. Hopefully this thread will go away soon :)

The mods have changed their minds, members have changed their minds, we have all reflected on the nature of groups and stuff... on the contrary Apulu! What a great thread. Let me take the opportunity to say these U-turns and introspection(s?) are great. I'm sure U-turns are the way forward on lots of things and should be encouraged... and if you will forgive my play on words (*1) especially if one believes we live on a flat earth

*1 you have to think about it

[Bill Ryan]

I may have been too quick to accuse Bill of referring to people as children, but I still feel the inference is there. Perhaps it's not.

Anyhoo. Hopefully this thread will go away soon :)

No, you weren't... that's pretty much what I was doing, though I crafted my words carefully, and not impolitely, to make a point about the importance of being willing to read, listen, watch, and learn.

To refer to someone as childlike is sometimes an endearing compliment. But to describe someone who's a grown adult, who still hasn't figured things out that most children already have, as still thinking like a child, is no compliment at all.

Re 'going away soon', the history of Flat Earth threads is not all that encouraging. They're easy to search for. MUCH has been written, sometimes with very great patience.

So now, those members who've been here for years go: "OMG, not again. :facepalm: "

It's the apparent unwillingness of those suddenly stating YouTube opinions, especially if they're new or infrequently visiting members, to READ those threads and THINK about what's in them and WATCH the many videos — that seems like it's a problem.

Believe me, we've got MANY MANY MANY better things to talk about than this.

[Bill Ryan]

If you're as intolerant as you seem to be about flat-earth theories, why not make an Avalon declaration of some kind, that people could be referred to. Then people would know what to expect if they push an agenda of wanting to debate it, and it might save on 7 pages of hoolabagooba :) Just a thought.
Truest.

It's already there.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon-

Read this part, maybe several times: :)

daviddjg23, felix roseczky, and FreeURmind, you read this (or were very pleasantly asked to) when you posted on the Welcome Thread just a few weeks ago to activate your membership.

~~~



A note about some aspects of the forum which are sometimes a little controversial: that of disinformation.

This is a huge topic, and is much discussed elsewhere, besides here. Its very purpose is to trick, deceive and confuse.

Some disinformation (the definition of which is part truth, part fiction) is deliberately injected into the alternative media. See this article for more details of the operation, which was launched at the start of 2013:


http://web.archive.org/web/20130403005110/homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7666

This is a problem that’s becoming larger. It’s tricky to handle on the forum, because we do NOT want to tell people what to think... but rather, we want to support them in HOW to think.

A few people might join the community believing, for instance, that the 'Flat Earth' is real, and that NASA always lies, and therefore no official statements can ever be believed. But that’s lazy thinking.

To figure out what’s true and what’s not, we have to do work. To reject everything and settle for some sugar-coated fantasy (and there are several of those circulating out there) takes NO work. So we do have to be prepared to do some work, when we study and learn and share.

Everyone can be forgiven for having at some time bought into a false idea, especially if their pilgrimage to the truth has quite recently begun. We’re committed to support all members in that journey.

But if a member demonstrates that they’re fixated and intransigent in a view that’s demonstrably flawed, and insists on promoting that, and seems to have stalled their own process of inquiry and learning, and never changes, then we may ask them to leave, too — because they would be a detriment to the well-being of the community.

It’d be like a heckler in a presentation, rather than someone asking intelligent and informed questions... which is always 100% fine.

This is not about ‘free speech’. That’s lazy thinking, too. It’s more like a university (and this is a very good one) that has certain admissions criteria. Poor students may possibly flunk out here, if I can put it so bluntly.

So — we ask for and expect your very best.

[Mike]

Hi Apulu, you're clearly a kind and thoughtful person. I can appreciate that while reading your posts.

These people perpetrating this flat earth thing, all they need is a small crack to enter into. And from there they ooze their way in to create little doubts and misdirections..even in the minds of some reasonable people.

They count on the kindness and tolerance and "open mindedness" of people around them to act as those cracks.

Imo this is a case, for the sake of the alternative community, where firmness and intolerance are perhaps the kindest and wisest approach to take, ultimately.

[Mike]

I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.


Felix, you've been here less than a week, and you've made less than half a dozen posts. One could be forgiven for getting the impression that you're acting like you know better than others.

You don't... and you don't know Mike at all, who's greatly loved by the members here and has been here for years.

:flower:

:focus:

one love brother.

so i shall stfu? is that what you try to tell me? if this is common sense in this space i m probably wrong here.


you know bill ryan
i do know that i do not know. i see the existence like a child. eyes wide open.

may gods love be with you


Felix I notice on your profile page you've listed your occupation as "social engineering":)

Care to elaborate?

[RunningDeer]

I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.

Felix I notice on your profile page you've listed your occupation as "social engineering (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?32788-felix-roseczky)":)

Care to elaborate?
I happen to catch that and wondered myself.

[Wind]

As Bill said, we the members who have been here for years have already seen all of those previous flat threads and the discussions in them always kept going round in circles, pun intended. The meme of a flat earth exists for a reason, it's there to weed out the more gullible people and to make them even more distracted so that they will be focusing on trivial matters. I wouldn't be surprised if alphabet agencies are enforcing that meme, even though these alternative & conspiracy communities are barely any threat to the establishment, just a minor nuisance probably.

There are different levels to awakening, but knowing that there are conspiracies doesn't automatically make you more awake and aware. You still have to use logic and discernment in order not to be a gullible person and even many of the so called "awakened" people fall into those traps all the time because they can't see the forest for the trees. We all make mistakes, but we live and learn. We can entertain some viewpoints, but if we have enough common sense and logic (combined with intuition), we can also understand what is true and what possibly cannot be. We are constantly being fed lies and bs, but that doesn't mean that everything would be a lie. If we just fall into a rigid belief system we wil not learn more, then we will in fact just become more ignorant instead of becoming more awake and aware.

[daviddjg23]

Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot be easily summed up with the phrase "Flat Earth"nor is the idea of a flat Earth somthing that is exclusive to the Western world.

Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinary wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologys.

It was a common belief in ancient Greece,as well as in India,China and in a wide range of indigenous cultures or "pre state" cultures.Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth.This was maintained by Thales,considered by many one of the first philosophers,Lucretius,an avowed materialist,as well as Democritus,the founder of atomic theory.

The ancient Greek conception,in turn,has some parallels with that of early Egyption and Mesopotamian thought,with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water.The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth's flatness,although-in this system-the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

A number of ancient Indian conceptions,common-with some degree of variation-to ancient Hinduism,Jainism and Buddism,tie their cosmography to botanical images,with the Earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain,akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower.Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

Others,like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea envisage a world which ends at the horizon,the place where giant clouds gather.But even where commonalities exist across these traditions,vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

a spherical disc!!! couldn't be the square in that shadow;)

Learning is fun but time for me to move on from this subject:flower: love you all:waving: people have the right to believe what they want but also science has its place now in our modern world so peace and love people:bearhug:







Mod note from Bill:

You copied all that (up to 'a spherical disc") from http://theconversation.com/flat-wrong-the-misunderstood-history-of-flat-earth-theories-53808. Please


always include links to your references when copying articles or part-articles.
make sure you understand what you're copying. :)

Eratosthenes PROVED the earth was spherical 2,250 years ago. Of course, it took some other cultures a while to catch up on that news.

[daviddjg23]

So the part about that belief changing has gone now and its like im being bullied on here i really cannot believe this at all i had posted then was adding more and thats gone now thankyou

basically they figured out it was round if you would of let me finish i think it was a good article and good overview of the history you really are an agressive bunch of people

really nasty to people that question in being so vulgar and patronising people leave, im feeling like you obviously want rid of me who do you all think you are God !!!

200 proofs by Eric Dubay you say is not research so i research and write part of a article leaving out the disgusting patronising tone of the autor think i had better add the next paragraph or Bill will be annoyed so i do but you have already been there stalking me its really quite scary.:thumbsdown:

Get ready for a bunch of patronising hate below

i will not ask silly questions Earth is round..
i will not ask silly questions Earth is round
i will not ask silly questions Earth is round ect

is a new racism being born or as others said pedophilia!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice great job guys

[Bill Ryan]

So the part about that belief changing has gone now

I never changed or deleted a thing. I only added my own note about the attribution of the article.

Click on the Editing History link at the bottom of your post, and (although that can be confusing), you can maybe see what happened: you and I were editing your post at almost the same time.

I think the extra paragraph from the article that you added (but was accidentally overwritten) was

~~~




However from at least the 6th century BCE,the theory of a flat Earth began falling out of favour,by the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE,the idea of a spherical Earth is common place at least among the educated classes.And by the 1st century BCE it is considered a uncontroversial truth.Having said that,the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought,like a handful of theories in science,such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

[Bill Ryan]

i think it was a good article

Yes, it was. Here's the whole article:


https://theconversation.com/flat-wrong-the-misunderstood-history-of-flat-earth-theories-53808

Flat wrong: the misunderstood history of flat Earth theories

For most people, being described as a “flat Earther” is an insult. The idea of the Earth being flat is considered not only wrong, but a model of wrongness, the gold standard of being incorrect about something.

This being so, oddly enough, most people described pejoratively as “flat Earthers” do not actually believe that the Earth is flat. “Flat Earther” is simply a scientifically seasoned variation of “idiot”.

For a recent example, US President Barack Obama recently expressed impatience (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23057369) with the persistent objections put forward by climate change deniers by saying: “We don’t have time for a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.”

In a subsequent move that one can read as either very fortunate or very unfortunate, the real Flat Earth Society issued a statement (http://www.salon.com/2013/06/25/flat_earth_society_believes_in_climate_change/) in support the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change.

What do we do, then, when someone actually does believe that the Earth is flat, as the American rapper B.o.B (http://www.bobatl.com/) expressed recently (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/25/bob-rapper-flat-earth-twitter)? The usual path seems to be blocked; it’s difficult to insult someone with a term that they themselves happily adopt.

Edge of the world

But what exactly is a “flat Earth theory”? In fact, there never has been anything called “the flat Earth theory”. Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot easily be summed up with the phrase “flat Earth.” Nor is the idea of a flat Earth something that is exclusive to the Western world.

Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinarily wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologies.

It was a common belief in ancient Greece, as well as in India, China and in a wide range of indigenous or “pre-state” cultures. Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth. This was maintained by Thales, considered by many one of the first philosophers, Lucretius, an avowed materialist, as well as Democritus, the founder of atomic theory.

The ancient Greek conception, in turn, has some parallels with that of early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought, with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water. The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

A number of ancient Indian conceptions, common – with some degree of variation – to ancient Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, tie their cosmography to botanical images, with the earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain, akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower. Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

Others, like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea, envisage a world which ends at the horizon, the place where giant clouds gather. But even where commonalities exist across these traditions, vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

And, to complicate matters, to these we must add cultures and intellectual traditions for whom the shape of Earth is of no interest whatsoever. Many tribal or pre-state societies, for instance, have little concern for what might be considered cosmography.

https://images.theconversation.com/files/109463/original/image-20160128-1025-rjqq1p.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip (https://images.theconversation.com/files/109463/original/image-20160128-1025-rjqq1p.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip)
Does it look flat?

Turtles all the way down

However, from at least the 6th century BCE, the theory of the flat Earth began to fall out of favour. By the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE, the idea of a spherical Earth is commonplace, at least among the educated classes. And by the 1st Century BCE it is considered an uncontroversial truth. Having said that, the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought, like a handful of theories in science, such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

Despite the historical tide having long turned, the mid 20th century saw the establishment of the Flat Earth Society (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/), started in 1956 by Samuel Shenton (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php/about-the-society/history-and-mission), whose work was continued by the retired aircraft mechanic, Charles K. Johnson, in 1972.

From California (where else?), Johnson functioned as president for The International Flat Earth Society. As its spokesman, he made a series of claims that have now become widespread outside the flat Earth community: the Apollo moon landings were faked, and that the correct view of the world is the traditional Christian one of the earth being flat.

Johnson, interestingly enough, didn’t get only his cosmology wrong, he got his history and theology wrong as well. Orthodox Christian thinkers, at least since 5th century on, have supported the idea of a spherical Earth, from Bede through to Thomas Aquinas.

Indeed, as the University of California historian Jeffrey Burton Russell (http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/home.html) has argued, very few educated people in the West after the 3rd century BCE thought that the world was flat. This goes directly against the common belief that most people in medieval times believed the Earth was flat.

How unenlightened they were

But, if the flat Earth serves as a kind if myth or fantasy for those who believe in it, there are also myths about the flat Earth that are just as widespread.

One of the most widely propagated myths in the contemporary world is the belief that Columbus was advised by the Catholic Church to abandon his journey on the basis that he risked falling off the edge of the world.

It’s source is the 19th century writer, Washington Irving (http://www.britannica.com/biography/Washington-Irving), author of other rigorous historical accounts such as The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle.

What this suggests is that we are sometimes overly keen to enlist the past – or our version of the past – in our attempts to feel better about how enlightened we are and how benighted were our predecessors.

That, of course, does not mean that nobody believed the Earth was flat in the middle ages; nor does it entail that nobody believes it today. Mohammed Yusuf, the founder of Boko Haram, famously claimed to not believe in a whole series of modern ideas which he though were contrary to Islam – including the spherical shape of the Earth (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8172270.stm).

If there is anything truly astounding about BoB’s improbable cosmographical musings, it’s that the battle between him and Neil deGrasse Tyson is, at this stage at least, being carried out only through the medium of rap. That could be a historical first for cosmography.

[RunningDeer]

So the part about that belief changing has gone now and its like im being bullied on here i really cannot believe this at all i had posted then was adding more and thats gone now thankyou

basically they figured out it was round if you would of let me finish i think it was a good article and good overview of the history you really are an agressive bunch of people

really nasty to people that question in being so vulgar and patronising people leave, im feeling like you obviously want rid of me who do you all think you are God !!!

200 proofs by Eric Dubay you say is not research so i research and write part of a article leaving out the disgusting patronising tone of the autor think i had better add the next paragraph or Bill will be annoyed so i do but you have already been there stalking me its really quite scary.:thumbsdown:

Get ready for a bunch of patronising hate below

i will not ask silly questions Earth is round..
i will not ask silly questions Earth is round
i will not ask silly questions Earth is round ect

is a new racism being born or as others said pedophilia!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice great job guys


14 Characteristics of a Classic Internet Troll (http://pluperfecter.blogspot.com/2011/08/14-characteristics-of-classic-internet.html)




"Trolling" has nothing to do with sincere expression of contrary opinions or stubborn dedication to an idea. Trolling is all in how the comments are phrased and how the comment poster behaves, especially when confronted.

You know it's an immature attention-getting scheme when they respond quickly to every single comment posted in response to theirs, and their rhetoric tends to escalate in intense hatred, absurd rambling, and malicious provocation."


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-grey.jpg

(1) Posts inflammatory comments, not to engage in serious conversation, but to "grief" or annoy an online community.

(2) An obvious glee and elated satisfaction is aroused in them when people join the fight and reply to their deliberately disruptive comments.

(3) Copies and pastes large blocks of text to exhaust the readers of a topic thread, thus driving away legitimate posters of sincere comments. These blocks of text are often recycled and appeared on a variety of threads.

(4) Tends to avoid complimenting people who disagree with them, even when those in opposition to the troll make some valid points.

(5) Shuns any conciliatory statements like "You have obviously spent a lot of time studying this subject, and I'm not certain how to reply to your last remark, so let's shake hands, part as friends, and move on."

(6) Never ends a debate with "Thanks for the discussion" or "I'll consider what you say" or any other finalizing remark, because they love arguing and disrupting civilized conversations.

(7) Keeps an argument going a lot longer than a normal person would, to the point where people will start asking a moderator to turn off comments or block the troll. However, sometimes people will do this just because they can't tolerate contrary opinions and are angry at seeing them posted to a thread they enjoyed reading. The mark of a troll is to keep hammering away at a point in an obsessive manner.


(8) Acts innocent when called a troll, and states "I'm just stating a contrary opinion, and you can't handle it", but the reality is they are not innocent, they are trouble-makers who only post inflammatory remarks, rarely contributing any real value or good information to a discussion.

(9) Starts saying filthy words and making wild accusations when confronted. Their hostility and provoking rhetoric escalates when you ask them if they might be a troll or if they are simply trying to stir up trouble.

(10) When you mention the name of another well-known forum, Second Life, or blogospheric troll, they defend them and accuse you of not understanding that person because you're a tyrannical censoring fascist or whatever.

(11) Will try to bring up issues that they are angry about, no matter what the topic of a thread is. For example, they will say things like "sounds like the Open Source movement" or "reminds me of Tea Baggers" or "you're sounding like a typical commie libtard now" or "you sound like some irrational Creationism crank" or "you atheists are all the same", or whatever it is they're hostile toward, in an attempt to start a new argument within the current debate.

(12) When people realize or are warned that the person is a troll, and the troll is then ignored, and nobody will respond to anything they say, the trolling person tends to give up and go to some other thread. They crave attention and they try to get it by being obnoxious in a juvenile, or scholarly, manner.

(13) They use a nickname, are anonymous, or use a real sounding name, but do not embed a link to their blog or website in their name, as is common in comment forms. This lack of accountability enables them to get away with saying anything they want, to anybody, and even tell outright lies about what they saw or heard.

(14) They, when not confronted or exposed sufficiently, will seek to have the last word in an online discussion. When nobody responds to their last troll comment, they will proudly proclaim that they "won" what they fantasize as a "content" or "battle".

Blogocombat means friendly online discussions, as well as heated debates. I use the term "blogocombat" to refer to both. But where the rubber meets the road is when you have to deal with the internet troll.

There are no winners or losers in a civilized discussion. There are just people who express their thoughts and people who learn a bit more about a subject and improve their presentation of ideas by engaging in conversations with worthy opponents.

[Daozen]

(1) Posts inflammatory comments, not to engage in serious conversation, but to "grief" or annoy an online community. CHECK

(2) An obvious glee and elated satisfaction is aroused in them when people join the fight and reply to their deliberately disruptive comments. CHECK

(3) Copies and pastes large blocks of text to exhaust the readers of a topic thread, thus driving away legitimate posters of sincere comments. These blocks of text are often recycled and appeared on a variety of threads... CHECK



I scored 11 out of 14. Not bad.

Having watched the Globalist Vs Flat Earther food fights for a couple of years, I ask myself... why only these 2 viewpoints? Are there any intermediate views which we're missed? FEarthers have stumbled on some indisputable anomalies, such as the fake moon landings + ISS interior footage. Antarctic anomalies are interesting too. Their observations are intriguing, but their conclusions may be wrong.

[daviddjg23]

cheers Bill i did post one bit then re read and think id better add that as i knew i had better put the whole next paragraph as it was the conclusion of the topic,That it is NOT FLAT ive had enough of this thread call me a troll if you want you think i care. what i dont like is people being just nasty too much of it every one believes they are right but i do look into things rather than pass comment from a ignorant position even if i dont agree i normally learn somthing i didnt know.

Thank you for adding that Bill.:thumbsup:

NOW DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD!!!! :beer:

Picked the wrong week to give up beer!!
the wrong week to give up pot!!! but seriously drugs are bad children.:silent:

sorry for getting bit annoyed Bill but it took like ages to type all that if i could of linked the whole thing i would have im still learning on here i just did not like the tone,as we are all here because of our ancestors and who knows what people will believe in or think of us in the future.:dancing:

[Wind]

Can't this thread just be combined to the giant flat Earth thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89423-Flat-Earth-Idea-Why-so-popular&highlight=flat+earth)?

See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=16215013

We need more questioning persons, but please don't become a flattard.

[DeDukshyn]

Can't this thread just be combined to the giant flat Earth thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89423-Flat-Earth-Idea-Why-so-popular&highlight=flat+earth)?

See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=16215013

We need more questioning persons, but please don't become a flattard.

How many? :) "Sorry. no matches, please try a different search term" -- heheh

[Hervé]

[...]
See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=16215013
[...]

How many? :) "Sorry. no matches, please try a different search term" -- heheh
In the Advanced Search box (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?search_type=1), type or copy-paste: "flat + earth" (with the quotation marks) in the "Keywords" box and set the search for "Threads" and "Search Titles Only" for latest results of the search. Older search results can't be displayed because there is a time limit for the search and a new search has to be "re-sent."

[DeDukshyn]

[...]
See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=16215013
[...]

How many? :) "Sorry. no matches, please try a different search term" -- heheh
In the Advanced Search box (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?search_type=1), type or copy-paste: "flat + earth" (with the quotation marks) in the "Keywords" box and set the search for "Threads" and "Search Titles Only" for latest results of the search. Older search results can't be displayed because there is a time limit for the search and a new search has to be "re-sent."

That would explain it. I was quite confident Wind hadn't yet switched ti the dark side, lol. :)

[Gaia]

i think it was a good article

Yes, it was. Here's the whole article:


https://theconversation.com/flat-wrong-the-misunderstood-history-of-flat-earth-theories-53808

Flat wrong: the misunderstood history of flat Earth theories

For most people, being described as a “flat Earther” is an insult. The idea of the Earth being flat is considered not only wrong, but a model of wrongness, the gold standard of being incorrect about something.

This being so, oddly enough, most people described pejoratively as “flat Earthers” do not actually believe that the Earth is flat. “Flat Earther” is simply a scientifically seasoned variation of “idiot”.

For a recent example, US President Barack Obama recently expressed impatience (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23057369) with the persistent objections put forward by climate change deniers by saying: “We don’t have time for a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.”

In a subsequent move that one can read as either very fortunate or very unfortunate, the real Flat Earth Society issued a statement (http://www.salon.com/2013/06/25/flat_earth_society_believes_in_climate_change/) in support the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change.

What do we do, then, when someone actually does believe that the Earth is flat, as the American rapper B.o.B (http://www.bobatl.com/) expressed recently (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/25/bob-rapper-flat-earth-twitter)? The usual path seems to be blocked; it’s difficult to insult someone with a term that they themselves happily adopt.

Edge of the world

But what exactly is a “flat Earth theory”? In fact, there never has been anything called “the flat Earth theory”. Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot easily be summed up with the phrase “flat Earth.” Nor is the idea of a flat Earth something that is exclusive to the Western world.

Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinarily wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologies.

It was a common belief in ancient Greece, as well as in India, China and in a wide range of indigenous or “pre-state” cultures. Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth. This was maintained by Thales, considered by many one of the first philosophers, Lucretius, an avowed materialist, as well as Democritus, the founder of atomic theory.

The ancient Greek conception, in turn, has some parallels with that of early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought, with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water. The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

A number of ancient Indian conceptions, common – with some degree of variation – to ancient Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, tie their cosmography to botanical images, with the earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain, akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower. Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

Others, like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea, envisage a world which ends at the horizon, the place where giant clouds gather. But even where commonalities exist across these traditions, vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

And, to complicate matters, to these we must add cultures and intellectual traditions for whom the shape of Earth is of no interest whatsoever. Many tribal or pre-state societies, for instance, have little concern for what might be considered cosmography.

https://images.theconversation.com/files/109463/original/image-20160128-1025-rjqq1p.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip (https://images.theconversation.com/files/109463/original/image-20160128-1025-rjqq1p.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip)
Does it look flat?

Turtles all the way down

However, from at least the 6th century BCE, the theory of the flat Earth began to fall out of favour. By the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE, the idea of a spherical Earth is commonplace, at least among the educated classes. And by the 1st Century BCE it is considered an uncontroversial truth. Having said that, the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought, like a handful of theories in science, such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

Despite the historical tide having long turned, the mid 20th century saw the establishment of the Flat Earth Society (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/), started in 1956 by Samuel Shenton (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php/about-the-society/history-and-mission), whose work was continued by the retired aircraft mechanic, Charles K. Johnson, in 1972.

From California (where else?), Johnson functioned as president for The International Flat Earth Society. As its spokesman, he made a series of claims that have now become widespread outside the flat Earth community: the Apollo moon landings were faked, and that the correct view of the world is the traditional Christian one of the earth being flat.

Johnson, interestingly enough, didn’t get only his cosmology wrong, he got his history and theology wrong as well. Orthodox Christian thinkers, at least since 5th century on, have supported the idea of a spherical Earth, from Bede through to Thomas Aquinas.

Indeed, as the University of California historian Jeffrey Burton Russell (http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/home.html) has argued, very few educated people in the West after the 3rd century BCE thought that the world was flat. This goes directly against the common belief that most people in medieval times believed the Earth was flat.

How unenlightened they were

But, if the flat Earth serves as a kind if myth or fantasy for those who believe in it, there are also myths about the flat Earth that are just as widespread.

One of the most widely propagated myths in the contemporary world is the belief that Columbus was advised by the Catholic Church to abandon his journey on the basis that he risked falling off the edge of the world.

It’s source is the 19th century writer, Washington Irving (http://www.britannica.com/biography/Washington-Irving), author of other rigorous historical accounts such as The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle.

What this suggests is that we are sometimes overly keen to enlist the past – or our version of the past – in our attempts to feel better about how enlightened we are and how benighted were our predecessors.

That, of course, does not mean that nobody believed the Earth was flat in the middle ages; nor does it entail that nobody believes it today. Mohammed Yusuf, the founder of Boko Haram, famously claimed to not believe in a whole series of modern ideas which he though were contrary to Islam – including the spherical shape of the Earth (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8172270.stm).

If there is anything truly astounding about BoB’s improbable cosmographical musings, it’s that the battle between him and Neil deGrasse Tyson is, at this stage at least, being carried out only through the medium of rap. That could be a historical first for cosmography.

Much of what I have discovered about the flat earth has intrigued me. To my surprise!

Few questions:

What mathematical proof do we have that the Earth is flat?

What you do with this : NASA has even admitted that nearly all of its photographs of the Earth were fake and based on “people’s expectations.” Again, this was shocking to me! I thought there were hundreds of legitimate photographs of the Earth, but there aren’t and the ones that are “official” have unmistakable errors on it.

Are there any equations for a flat Earth model to do any predictions on things like sunrise/sunset, eclipses, etc like they have in the spherical model?

Where is our Universe actually located?

What is the scale of our Universe?


Maybe it is a deeper, more fundamental disagreement .... I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....

After all, we discuss a lot of topics in Avalon. Why not this one? Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!

[Kano]

i think it was a good article

Yes, it was. Here's the whole article:


https://theconversation.com/flat-wrong-the-misunderstood-history-of-flat-earth-theories-53808

Flat wrong: the misunderstood history of flat Earth theories

For most people, being described as a “flat Earther” is an insult. The idea of the Earth being flat is considered not only wrong, but a model of wrongness, the gold standard of being incorrect about something.

This being so, oddly enough, most people described pejoratively as “flat Earthers” do not actually believe that the Earth is flat. “Flat Earther” is simply a scientifically seasoned variation of “idiot”.

For a recent example, US President Barack Obama recently expressed impatience (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23057369) with the persistent objections put forward by climate change deniers by saying: “We don’t have time for a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.”

In a subsequent move that one can read as either very fortunate or very unfortunate, the real Flat Earth Society issued a statement (http://www.salon.com/2013/06/25/flat_earth_society_believes_in_climate_change/) in support the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change.

What do we do, then, when someone actually does believe that the Earth is flat, as the American rapper B.o.B (http://www.bobatl.com/) expressed recently (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/25/bob-rapper-flat-earth-twitter)? The usual path seems to be blocked; it’s difficult to insult someone with a term that they themselves happily adopt.

Edge of the world

But what exactly is a “flat Earth theory”? In fact, there never has been anything called “the flat Earth theory”. Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot easily be summed up with the phrase “flat Earth.” Nor is the idea of a flat Earth something that is exclusive to the Western world.

Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinarily wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologies.

It was a common belief in ancient Greece, as well as in India, China and in a wide range of indigenous or “pre-state” cultures. Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth. This was maintained by Thales, considered by many one of the first philosophers, Lucretius, an avowed materialist, as well as Democritus, the founder of atomic theory.

The ancient Greek conception, in turn, has some parallels with that of early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought, with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water. The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

A number of ancient Indian conceptions, common – with some degree of variation – to ancient Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, tie their cosmography to botanical images, with the earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain, akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower. Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

Others, like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea, envisage a world which ends at the horizon, the place where giant clouds gather. But even where commonalities exist across these traditions, vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

And, to complicate matters, to these we must add cultures and intellectual traditions for whom the shape of Earth is of no interest whatsoever. Many tribal or pre-state societies, for instance, have little concern for what might be considered cosmography.

https://images.theconversation.com/files/109463/original/image-20160128-1025-rjqq1p.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip (https://images.theconversation.com/files/109463/original/image-20160128-1025-rjqq1p.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip)
Does it look flat?

Turtles all the way down

However, from at least the 6th century BCE, the theory of the flat Earth began to fall out of favour. By the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE, the idea of a spherical Earth is commonplace, at least among the educated classes. And by the 1st Century BCE it is considered an uncontroversial truth. Having said that, the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought, like a handful of theories in science, such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

Despite the historical tide having long turned, the mid 20th century saw the establishment of the Flat Earth Society (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/), started in 1956 by Samuel Shenton (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php/about-the-society/history-and-mission), whose work was continued by the retired aircraft mechanic, Charles K. Johnson, in 1972.

From California (where else?), Johnson functioned as president for The International Flat Earth Society. As its spokesman, he made a series of claims that have now become widespread outside the flat Earth community: the Apollo moon landings were faked, and that the correct view of the world is the traditional Christian one of the earth being flat.

Johnson, interestingly enough, didn’t get only his cosmology wrong, he got his history and theology wrong as well. Orthodox Christian thinkers, at least since 5th century on, have supported the idea of a spherical Earth, from Bede through to Thomas Aquinas.

Indeed, as the University of California historian Jeffrey Burton Russell (http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/home.html) has argued, very few educated people in the West after the 3rd century BCE thought that the world was flat. This goes directly against the common belief that most people in medieval times believed the Earth was flat.

How unenlightened they were

But, if the flat Earth serves as a kind if myth or fantasy for those who believe in it, there are also myths about the flat Earth that are just as widespread.

One of the most widely propagated myths in the contemporary world is the belief that Columbus was advised by the Catholic Church to abandon his journey on the basis that he risked falling off the edge of the world.

It’s source is the 19th century writer, Washington Irving (http://www.britannica.com/biography/Washington-Irving), author of other rigorous historical accounts such as The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle.

What this suggests is that we are sometimes overly keen to enlist the past – or our version of the past – in our attempts to feel better about how enlightened we are and how benighted were our predecessors.

That, of course, does not mean that nobody believed the Earth was flat in the middle ages; nor does it entail that nobody believes it today. Mohammed Yusuf, the founder of Boko Haram, famously claimed to not believe in a whole series of modern ideas which he though were contrary to Islam – including the spherical shape of the Earth (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8172270.stm).

If there is anything truly astounding about BoB’s improbable cosmographical musings, it’s that the battle between him and Neil deGrasse Tyson is, at this stage at least, being carried out only through the medium of rap. That could be a historical first for cosmography.

Much of what I have discovered about the flat earth has intrigued me. To my surprise!

Few questions:

What mathematical proof do we have that the Earth is flat?

What you do with this : NASA has even admitted that nearly all of its photographs of the Earth were fake and based on “people’s expectations.” Again, this was shocking to me! I thought there were hundreds of legitimate photographs of the Earth, but there aren’t and the ones that are “official” have unmistakable errors on it.

Are there any equations for a flat Earth model to do any predictions on things like sunrise/sunset, eclipses, etc like they have in the spherical model?

Where is our Universe actually located?

What is the scale of our Universe?


Maybe it is a deeper, more fundamental disagreement .... I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....

After all, we discuss a lot of topics in Avalon. Why not this one? Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!

Halle - f*cking - lujah!

[Hazelfern]

In the name of everything that's holy! Just stop please.

[Bill Ryan]

I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....

I posted that (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=1194824#post1194824) solely to assist daviddjg23. Not my initiative.



Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!

Halle - f*cking - lujah!

It seems as if maybe you ever read this, from my post #135 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100778-I-don-t-know-what-shape-the-earth-is-but-look-at-this&p=1194760&viewfull=1#post1194760):

~~~

From the Welcome To Avalon Thread, intended for all members to read and please understand:


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon-






A note about some aspects of the forum which are sometimes a little controversial: that of disinformation.

This is a huge topic, and is much discussed elsewhere, besides here. Its very purpose is to trick, deceive and confuse.

Some disinformation (the definition of which is part truth, part fiction) is deliberately injected into the alternative media. See this article for more details of the operation, which was launched at the start of 2013:


http://web.archive.org/web/20130403005110/homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7666

This is a problem that’s becoming larger. It’s tricky to handle on the forum, because we do NOT want to tell people what to think... but rather, we want to support them in HOW to think.

A few people might join the community believing, for instance, that the 'Flat Earth' is real, and that NASA always lies, and therefore no official statements can ever be believed. But that’s lazy thinking.

To figure out what’s true and what’s not, we have to do work. To reject everything and settle for some sugar-coated fantasy (and there are several of those circulating out there) takes NO work. So we do have to be prepared to do some work, when we study and learn and share.

Everyone can be forgiven for having at some time bought into a false idea, especially if their pilgrimage to the truth has quite recently begun. We’re committed to support all members in that journey.

But if a member demonstrates that they’re fixated and intransigent in a view that’s demonstrably flawed, and insists on promoting that, and seems to have stalled their own process of inquiry and learning, and never changes, then we may ask them to leave, too — because they would be a detriment to the well-being of the community.

It’d be like a heckler in a presentation, rather than someone asking intelligent and informed questions... which is always 100% fine.

This is not about ‘free speech’. That’s lazy thinking, too. It’s more like a university (and this is a very good one) that has certain admissions criteria. Poor students may possibly flunk out here, if I can put it so bluntly.

So — we ask for and expect your very best.
~~~


If someone doesn't understand this, there's not much I can say.
If someone doesn't agree with this, then please leave. I say this without malice, but with a very great deal of personal clarity.

[humanoidlord]

yes the earth is round, this is an basic fact and should not be questioned :plane:

[Joe from the Carolinas]

I've installed a number of natural, liner-free pond/dam and swale systems on the land. I've scraped ground in the coastal plains, the desert, the piedmont, and the mountains. I need to contribute that it takes a lot of time, effort, and energy to make any piece of ground level. Whether we're dealing with 0.25 acres, 1.0 hectares, or 100 acres.. its just not there if we follow the natural contours of the landscape.

We move water on, around, and off a patch of ground using shovels/excavators, A-frame levels/laser levels, etc. If I screw up the leveling, bad stuff happens, because water follows the path of least resistance. Failing to plan for a 500-year flood event leads to homes getting washed downstream- not standing in place.

I can confidently say that in my experience, I've never found a perfectly level / flat piece of ground, unless it was previously levelled by similar methods. Having played with laser levels in the dead sea valley, the lowest elevation on planet earth, I can tell ya there is no level ground there either.

I would have LOVED to find flat ground--- there would be no need for spending hours renting laser levels and staking out land contours. Water would pool up evenly, eliminating droughts and recharging aquifers. Unfortunately thats just not my reality. The surface of water is always level... what's happening underneath the surface is an entirely different story.

[Sierra]

Heh. I do like the clarity pictures sometimes provide, lol...

36598


36599

[DeDukshyn]

Heh. I do like the clarity pictures sometimes provide, lol...

36598


36599

Re: the second image ... Don't bother, I appreciate the effort though. :) But if you just put a shade exactly over half the light and rotate it -- night and day. See? Flat Earth proof! </sarcasm> :)

[Midnight]

After finding that my world has a number of new aspects that weren't there before (very strange), and after finding out that sub atomic particles only behave as physical objects when we observe them, I have become less confident that I understand the true nature of reality. The so-called flat earth might be flat in the sense that it is a simulation that emerged from a 2D source. But a physical flat Earth with a dome is a ridiculous idea.

[DeDukshyn]

After finding that my world has a number of new aspects that weren't there before (very strange), and after finding out that sub atomic particles only behave as physical objects when we observe them, I have become less confident that I understand the true nature of reality. The so-called flat earth might be flat in the sense that it is a simulation that emerged from a 2D source. But a physical flat Earth with a dome is a ridiculous idea.

Good sense ... the curiosities of physics up to this point have never contradicted a sphere earth, but the have definitlely added questions about how our reality is created and sustained. Good to see you have sense to see the difference!

Welcome to Avalon BTW!

[Cardillac]

I still can't believe we have 8 pages on this forum (yes, THIS forum) discussing whether the earth is flat or not- yes, the earth is slightly egg-shaped due to the land mass around the equator but it's (deep breath) not flat-

Larry

[felix roseczky]

Dear Bill
please be aware that i do not advertise the idea of a flat earth.
Dont put me into this box.
please reread what i wrote.

i did never mention this
i wrote i wasnt suprised if i wake up on board of a spaceship from stasissleep. the only thing i tried to do was to open a little space for thoughts.

you guys seem to be little traumatized about this topic.
maybe go more into the reallife than hanging out online and discuss complete timewastetopics like this.


flat earth may be interesting to really ask youreself what do i know, whats my knowledge, and whats second hand knowledge. for me it was very important step in leaving the matrix prison humanity is stucked in.
isnt it like that, that reality is what the mayority believes it is.
light waves appear not to act as what they are if there s no spectator. all particles in universe share the same information of the whole universe. even time doesn t really exist, its just a concept.
out of body travelling, dimensional travelling, cleardreaming (luciddreaming) - all experiences that can hardly be explained with our theory of not much.

is the earth flat? idk
sphere? idk

i know there arent real photos from earth. i know nasa is faking is videos...but this can have many reasons...black budget projects that are financed with iss money...what ever.

i feel this reality is like a puzzle...with every piece the picture becomes more clear and visible.
wouldn t be that suprised to wake up in a stasis tank on a spaceship and realizing we arrived at damn alpha centauri and its time to get back to reallife. really. wouldnt be too suprised.

may gods love be with you, may your paths be blessed by health, peace, joy and amazing experiences. dont let yourself become divided. life as one.


to understand the secrets of the universe we need to think in the terms: frequency, energy and vibration.
nikolai tesla

Life is like a melody, the vibration of energy. god is the very harmonic vibration of high frequent energy, performing the soundtrack of eternity.
The Love frequency.

Om mani padme hum

White Wolf de avalon


I can feel a lot of anger and fear from your words.

Maybe take life bit more easy - theres really nothing to be angry or feared about. Everything is how it was ment to be. You re perfect as you are.
We all follow divine ways and rules our little human conciousness is hardly able to follow. Reality is much stranger than fiction.
Where i come from we say like:
Dont **** the earth but make children with her, spread positive and never negative energy.
Why not changing your avatar to a rainbow and feel the love and phantasy a rainbow spreads.

I tend to write loveletters to god and mother earth. its like mindmasage or so....

Lets just respect each other from deep inside. respect each and anyones point of view. we re all from one source. all experiences are worth to be made.
i m grateful for the deepest holes i fall into. so i could climb out of them.

dont feel that youre duty is to attack anyone who has different point of view about earth shape.
imagine: youre eye transforms light waves into a picture. in reality all you see is vibrating energy, in different frequency. an egg and a tennisball are actually made of the same - vibrating energy.
dont waste your mind for defending anything when you can discover new horizons of being.


ONE LOVE

so thats what i wrote about this.
i say, thinking about the topic helped me to break out of the matrix prison, not that i think earth is flat.

you know when you astraltravel you can see earth is a sphere, or an egg, whatever.

dont waste my time and energy please trying to put me into corners, because where i am is the middlepoint.

really...i love you guys...just keep more calm and friendly.
:flower:
one love

[RunningDeer]

maybe go more into the reallife than hanging out online and discuss complete timewastetopics like this.

When I was 20, 25, and 30 years old, I believed when I reached 35, I’d finally have all the answers. Silly, silly, SILLY me!

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/laugh-pound.gif
felix roseczky, did you know there are members here that are more than twice your age? Yup. They were around long before the internet. It’s safe to say they, along with many others, participate in real life, too.


dont waste my time and energy please trying to put me into corners, because where i am is the middlepoint.

I agree. There are no corners in my world for anyone to even think they could put me in one. It's my experience that no one can waste your time and energy, that is unless you give over your power and allow it.

Middle point is not my goal. That was one of the stops along the way. It felt static, limited, make-believe (i.e. made-to-believe). To be fair, we may have different definitions on middle point. For me, the journey is vast and endless. The times when I have the courage to bungee jump without a rope expansion asks to be invited in. Though now there’s less need for that kind of high-octane juice.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/smile-teeth.gif

[Bill Ryan]

dont waste my time and energy please trying to put me into corners

Well, I guess you won't be buying into the ancient Chinese belief.


The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.:)

[DeDukshyn]

dont waste my time and energy please trying to put me into corners

Well, I guess you won't be buying into the ancient Chinese belief.


The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.:)

Probably won't be buying into your cube musings either ... ;)

[TargeT]

This topic is such an an energy siphon.... I'm surprised it's hit 9 pages... (feels like 'again'?)

[DeDukshyn]

This topic is such an an energy siphon.... I'm surprised it's hit 9 pages... (feels like 'again'?)

"Energy Siphon" --- accurate terminology.

I'm pretty sure I only ranted this here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100673-Interstellar-object-confirmed-to-be-from-another-solar-system&p=1195714&viewfull=1#post1195714 because of this thread ...

[felix roseczky]

well...so we are clear that this was some kind of misunderstanding?
its much more praobably this is some kind of holographic matrix, AI Matrix or something than earth is flat. though you can never be sure until you did see it with your own eyes from space.
my experience showed me that this world we live in is constructed on so many lies. everything i was told in early age was actually complete bull****. maybe mathematics wasnt. but even their we just get some dirty pieces thrown.

@running deer...
yea, this life i have lived only 34 circles, but i ve lived many lives and some i even remember.
age does not matter at all.
every human has to die but just a few did really life. a 70 jears old dude may have more jears but not neccesary more experiences.

and yes, probably middlepoint is the complete wrong term, buy my vocabulary is smallish, I just dont write english that often. i wanted to say that i m not standing in any corner and have a very strong opinion but that i m standing in the middle of a circle and are open minded to experience all possible corners, even a circle doenst have them. :-)
Maybe this is a better explanation.


if you wanna walk on the water you gotta get outta the boat

[MorningFox]

Here's a nice independent brand made film sending a product in to space. There's no fish eye lens, the products look normal (not fish eyed) and yet look... the earth looks very spherical to me....

Can someone send this to the flat earthers please?

rliaXQ_-wdA

[DeDukshyn]

Here's a nice independent brand made film sending a product in to space. There's no fish eye lens, the products look normal (not fish eyed) and yet look... the earth looks very spherical to me....

Can someone send this to the flat earthers please?

rliaXQ_-wdA

Actually, it's a very wide angle lens (about 10 - 12mm? I'd consider it a fish-eye) - you can see the "fish-eye" effect on the horizon (very rounded) when the camera first lifts off. So FEer would say that this is why the earth looks spherical in the footage. They'd probably just leave it at that rather than actually using math or other solution oriented practice to determine that the level fish-eye actually effect seen, could not possibly make a flat earth into a sphere. But I applaud the effort :) FEers are a peculiar bunch who grasp at any straw available that they think gives them evidence to support their belief.

I did get into a debate with another Avalon member on the topic through PMs a while back. We decided to analyze some long distance photos that FEers were using as "proof" the earth is flat. I dissected one completely and could prove that in the image there was about 300-400 meters of land hidden behind the ocean horizon (due to the earth's curve - I was expecting 500+ but the level of atmospheric refraction variance should be within that threshold). It wasn't that hard to do really. My debater acknowledged this but decided he wanted to check out more photos. I got busy and dropped out of the discussion for a while, but he was also able to determine "sphereness" of the earth based on other photos - the same photos that FEers were using as "proof" the earth is flat, actually showed the opposite when evaluated properly. What does this tell me? Most FEers also have zero decent analytical abilities to go along with their religion-like beliefs.

As a disclaimer, my debater wasn't a "FEer", just a guy who I think wanted more evidence before concluding the earth was not flat, and he found it within his own analysis, which supported mine as well, so, not a flat earther at all :)

[Nick Matkin]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25289508_2013453888675612_6271147970840298546_n.jpg?oh=681232a943a8c7265ae60d94c94f560a&oe=5AD2F858

[shijo]

No wonder Andy Murray has been losing recently, i prefer the good old days when the ball was round.

[Gaia]

I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....

I posted that (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=1194824#post1194824) solely to assist daviddjg23. Not my initiative.



Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!

Halle - f*cking - lujah!

It seems as if maybe you ever read this, from my post #135 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100778-I-don-t-know-what-shape-the-earth-is-but-look-at-this&p=1194760&viewfull=1#post1194760):

~~~

From the Welcome To Avalon Thread, intended for all members to read and please understand:


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon-






A note about some aspects of the forum which are sometimes a little controversial: that of disinformation.

This is a huge topic, and is much discussed elsewhere, besides here. Its very purpose is to trick, deceive and confuse.

Some disinformation (the definition of which is part truth, part fiction) is deliberately injected into the alternative media. See this article for more details of the operation, which was launched at the start of 2013:


http://web.archive.org/web/20130403005110/homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7666

This is a problem that’s becoming larger. It’s tricky to handle on the forum, because we do NOT want to tell people what to think... but rather, we want to support them in HOW to think.

A few people might join the community believing, for instance, that the 'Flat Earth' is real, and that NASA always lies, and therefore no official statements can ever be believed. But that’s lazy thinking.

To figure out what’s true and what’s not, we have to do work. To reject everything and settle for some sugar-coated fantasy (and there are several of those circulating out there) takes NO work. So we do have to be prepared to do some work, when we study and learn and share.

Everyone can be forgiven for having at some time bought into a false idea, especially if their pilgrimage to the truth has quite recently begun. We’re committed to support all members in that journey.

But if a member demonstrates that they’re fixated and intransigent in a view that’s demonstrably flawed, and insists on promoting that, and seems to have stalled their own process of inquiry and learning, and never changes, then we may ask them to leave, too — because they would be a detriment to the well-being of the community.

It’d be like a heckler in a presentation, rather than someone asking intelligent and informed questions... which is always 100% fine.

This is not about ‘free speech’. That’s lazy thinking, too. It’s more like a university (and this is a very good one) that has certain admissions criteria. Poor students may possibly flunk out here, if I can put it so bluntly.

So — we ask for and expect your very best.
~~~


If someone doesn't understand this, there's not much I can say.
If someone doesn't agree with this, then please leave. I say this without malice, but with a very great deal of personal clarity.



I'm leaving definitely this forum after 8 years please mods delete my account. C'est forums sont obsolètes dans leurs formats actuels qui ne permettent pas le free speech. Go to Zero Hedge or RT that's could be better for the free speech and your opinion. What a waist of time Avalon small forum.

[TargeT]

I'm leaving definitely this forum after 8 years please mods delete my account. C'est forums sont obsolètes dans leurs formats actuels qui ne permettent pas le free speech. Go to Zero Hedge or RT that's could be better for the free speech and your opinion. What a waist of time Avalon small forum.

Relying on a single source or forum for info is a mistake, just as making judgements while in the depths of emotional influence is. ANY form that is moderated will have information gatekeepers, that is unavoidable and apart of "the human condition"; but not necessarily evil or nefarious.

[Gaia]

I'm leaving definitely this forum after 8 years please mods delete my account. C'est forums sont obsolètes dans leurs formats actuels qui ne permettent pas le free speech. Go to Zero Hedge or RT that's could be better for the free speech and your opinion. What a waist of time Avalon small forum.

Relying on a single source or forum for info is a mistake, just as making judgements while in the depths of emotional influence is. ANY form that is moderated will have information gatekeepers, that is unavoidable and apart of "the human condition"; but not necessarily evil or nefarious.


I'm not in chock that been you becoming on rescue ! You know I always knew you were a pseudonym because they are multiple of Bill Ryan the same with multiple visages on this forum. I have ignored all these pseudonyms over the years fyi. But today I must say that your big arm with your sleeve does not impress me that much. Good luck to you pseudonym!!!

[Gaia]

And go **** yourself!!!!:third: TargeT retard!!!!

[avid]

I'm leaving definitely this forum after 8 years please mods delete my account. C'est forums sont obsolètes dans leurs formats actuels qui ne permettent pas le free speech. Go to Zero Hedge or RT that's could be better for the free speech and your opinion. What a waist of time Avalon small forum.

Relying on a single source or forum for info is a mistake, just as making judgements while in the depths of emotional influence is. ANY form that is moderated will have information gatekeepers, that is unavoidable and apart of "the human condition"; but not necessarily evil or nefarious.


I'm not in chock that been you becoming on rescue ! You know I always knew you were a pseudonym because they are multiple of Bill Ryan the same with multiple visages on this forum. I have ignored all these pseudonyms over the years fyi. But today I must say that your big arm with your sleeve does not impress me that much. Good luck to you pseudonym!!!

Please chill out, you have never posted this negativity before, please take a rest, Target is a great friend. Have a sabbatical, it would be sad to lose you ❤️ All these years cannot be in vain, there must be a misunderstanding or mistranslation somewhere... Hang in there!

[TargeT]

I'm not in chock that been you becoming on rescue ! You know I always knew you were a pseudonym because they are multiple of Bill Ryan the same with multiple visages on this forum. I have ignored all these pseudonyms over the years fyi. But today I must say that your big arm with your sleeve does not impress me that much. Good luck to you pseudonym!!!

Your not in shock that I am coming to the rescue? What did I rescue exactly (perhaps I attempted to rescue moderation in thought and action, but I'm not sure I was successful). I think you're accusing me of being bill under another name?...

What if I accuse YOU of being bill with a Canadian accent? (seems ridiculous?) (I mean TargeT is certainly a pseudonym, but its MY pseudonym!)

Haha, I'll have to re-take that picture.. it's forced perspective really, I work at a desk.. my arms are far from big.


Either way (and as an attempt to stay on topic) I was just suggesting that you are right in not staying just with one forum, but excluding information sources is almost as bad as sitting in an echo chamber.

the FE phenomenon is a good representation of this concept.


And go **** yourself!!!!:third: TargeT retard!!!!

I'm assuming the 4 *'s could be any one of these words:
http://positivewordsresearch.com/4-letter-positive-words/

Thanks :)

[avid]

Bangs daft heads together - this is worse than dealing with naughty chaps in the school playground, take a time-out the pair of you, sleep on it and let’s refocus on something more important tomorrow 👍👍👍

[Navigator]

And go **** yourself!!!!:third: TargeT retard!!!!

Flat earth bull**** really has the power to divide us doesn't it? Think about who wins in a world where "divide and conquer" has become a winning strategy.

I'm new here so I'm maybe not a great judge as to who should leave or stay, but I'll stick my neck out a little and and say we, no matter what, shouldn't allow divide and conquer, regardless of where we apply the blame for that tactic, we can't let the tactic win.

BTW I love the Quebec way of expressing things :)

[Billy]

I am pleased to see that Target can take unfounded accusations and insults.
More self moderation required please.

Again I repeat what I said a few years ago regarding the great FE distraction here.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83765-A-Flat-Earth-not-Round-...&p=995385&viewfull=1#post995385


Anyways, My own thoughts are, It is much more important to think about our Mother earths well being, rather than the distraction of her curvy or flat figure.
As they say, each to their own.

Peace.


Adding one more very recent brave heart to my list. :clapping:

French sailor François Gabart makes fastest solo circumnavigation
Journey around world took 42 days and 16 hours – six days faster than previous


The French sailor François Gabart has broken the record for sailing solo around the world, circumnavigating the planet in 42 days and 16 hours.

That is more than six days faster than the last record, set by his fellow Frenchman Thomas Coville last year.

The organisers, tracking his journey by satellite, tweeted that 34-year-old Gabart had reached the finish line near Ouessant island off France’s western coast on his trimaran, called Macif, before dawn on Sunday.

Dozens of vessels swarmed around the vessel, accompanying Gabart as he waved torches.

Supporters waited to congratulate him in nearby port of Brest, from where he departed on 4 November and where residents have been following his travels.

“It’s a crazy pleasure … all this human energy,” Gabart said later. “I’m a solitary sailor but this is a pleasure.”


3FqI127t2yQ

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/17/french-sailor-francois-gabart-fastest-solo-circumnavigation

IHAX3e0gP4g

[MorningFox]

^ To be fair, that proves nothing. You can still take the same course on the flat earth model...

[petra]

Haha, I'll have to re-take that picture.. it's forced perspective really, I work at a desk.. my arms are far from big.

I laughed so much. I kind of miss the pic, never mind the arm, the expression on your face was my favorite part.

EDIT: I turned off avatars and just remembered that I did it, your avatar is probably there I just cannot see it anymore (facepalm)

[Innocent Warrior]

If FE threads (discussion in this case) were roads they'd be closed due to unacceptable fatality rates.

[TargeT]

Haha, I'll have to re-take that picture.. it's forced perspective really, I work at a desk.. my arms are far from big.

I laughed so much. I kind of miss the pic, never mind the arm, the expression on your face was my favorite part.

EDIT: I turned off avatars and just remembered that I did it, your avatar is probably there I just cannot see it anymore (facepalm)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar7134_2.gif

;)




Flat earth bull**** really has the power to divide us doesn't it? Think about who wins in a world where "divide and conquer" has become a winning strategy.

One of many topics meant to do just that, and it works really well. There are so many of these hard black/white topics that it's hard NOT to stumble over one and "trigger" someone during day to day interactions.




If FE threads (discussion in this case) were roads they'd be closed due to unacceptable fatality rates.

great analogy.

[petra]

One of many topics meant to do just that, and it works really well.

It's still a mystery. Look on montalk.net's FAQ (http://montalk.net/about/143/e-mail-qa) it's the first question. Innuendo?

[Bill Ryan]

One of many topics meant to do just that, and it works really well.

It's still a mystery. Look on montalk.net's FAQ (http://montalk.net/about/143/e-mail-qa) it's the first question. Innuendo?

No, that really is a list of questions he's frequently asked.

Here's his comprehensive answer:





It’s a globe, at least here in our 3D reality. The deeper conspiracy is that our reality itself might be a kind of simulation, or temporary reality that’s like a side track to the main real reality, or is in some way a gimped version of the authentic.

As a result, there are certain glitches or inconsistencies in our everyday experiences and in the world (Fortean phenomena, synchronicities, spontaneous invisibility, time warps, etc.) that show the cracks in the façade. Not to mention, what afterlife research, aliens, and metaphysical beings suggest about there being another reality behind the curtain.

I think the flat Earth theory is disinformation meant to distract and keep people limited to lower dimensional thinking instead of thinking hyperdimensionally or metaphysically.

It uses a lot of sleight of hand, wrong assumptions, incomplete assumptions, and lack of sufficient science knowledge to pull various “stage magic” tricks to support the idea that Earth is flat. But if you investigate each of the claims, you can find where their reasoning or assumptions go wrong.

To give one example, cameras on weather balloons have been used by flat Earth theorists to show that even when the balloon gets higher and higher the horizon always stays at eye level instead of dropping and curving as it should on a sphere.

But to do the numbers, balloons don’t actually go that high, as the highest they go is 23 miles. Diameter of Earth is 7,917.5 miles. So if Earth were a basketball, 23.44cm in diameter, a weather balloon then would get 0.7 mm from the surface. That is so close to it, that the horizon of the basketball would be close to eye level. It would be close enough that the difference versus ground level is too small to be obvious in weather balloon photographs.

Another example is that airplanes on long flights don’t have to dip their noses to follow the downward curving contour of the Earth’s surface. Thus it would appear the surface is flat. But the larger the sphere, the flatter its surface appears when you’re close to it.

As an airplane flies over the ground or water below, it is flying almost flat like a ruler, and the ground below is almost flat like a ruler too, except there is a slight curvature to the ground which is matched by the plane’s slight curvature in its path, the two remaining parallel to each other as both curve equally.

These arguments are all along the lines of, “If the sky is blue and the sun yellow, then why isn’t the light that hits us green since blue + yellow = green?” which makes sense only if you don’t know enough about the physics of light scattering and optics.

Like I said, the flat Earth proponents are good at coming up with reasons that tend to fall apart when examined, only to come up with new ones as those previous ones are explained away, only to repeat the cycle further and further.

[petra]

One of many topics meant to do just that, and it works really well.

It's still a mystery. Look on montalk.net's FAQ (http://montalk.net/about/143/e-mail-qa) it's the first question. Innuendo?

No, that really is a list of questions he's frequently asked.


My point is that out of all the questions in his FAQ, this particular question is at the very top of the list :) Thanks for posting Tom's full answer, I just think it over complicates things personally.

[Bill Ryan]

One of many topics meant to do just that, and it works really well.

It's still a mystery. Look on montalk.net's FAQ (http://montalk.net/about/143/e-mail-qa) it's the first question. Innuendo?

No, that really is a list of questions he's frequently asked.


My point is that out of all the questions in his FAQ, this particular question is at the very top of the list :) Thanks for posting Tom's full answer, I just think it over complicates things personally.

He specifically states: "Most recent additions are first on page."

If I may say :flower: — you're reading into this a significance that just isn't there.

[TargeT]

Here we have a perfect example of (IMO) WHY the FE push is so big....

FE "conspiracy theory" being used to attack every other conspiracy... because, of course.....


Did NASA lie? Flat Earth 'conspiracy theory' GROWING thanks to celebrity endorsement
AMERICA’s flat-Earth movement is growing in popularity after celebrity endorsement and outrageous stunts to promote the cause, it has been revealed. (https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/891130/NASA-USA-Flat-Earth-conspiracy-theory-Kyrie-Irving-BoB-Freddie-Flintoff-Mike-Hughes-news)

[petra]

He specifically states: "Most recent additions are first on page."

If I may say :flower: — you're reading into this a significance that just isn't there.

Well in a way, doesn't everything have at least some significance? I just imagine he's probably said "oh not this again" quite a few times by now, his answer is really quite good now that I read it again.

EDIT: You know what? That is the first question and also the last question. There haven't been any new ones in quite some time, I've been checking back. Maybe he's taking a nice vacation :)

[Frenchy]

To misbis ( and her loved ones )

Wishing you a happy end to the year, and truly hoping that you've been receiving, across the airwaves, all the love and tenderness , from your friends on PA.

With ALL disclosures, breaching thru', unstoppably,
a time for reconciliation and compassion ! !


Blessings for a bright future :-))

[ThePythonicCow]

There may be some significance to flat earth theories after all :).

I observe that it is common to explain esoteric matters to people using analogies with things that they are more familiar with.

Such analogies invariably have their limitations, which are just as invariably frustrating to those who actually understand the "esoteric" matter in more native terms/concepts.

For example, when I was a student of physics and mathematics, a long time ago, I understood to some degree Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, and to a greater degree Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. It greatly frustrated me when my fellow students, majoring in "softer" subjects such as philosophy or creative writing would take these principles or theorems and apply them far outside of their field of applicability (sub-atomic measurements and mathematical set and logic theory, respectively.)

Conclusions drawn from such mis-application of analogies are notoriously unreliable ... analogies prove nothing. At best they can sometimes help illustrate ("paint a picture") of some relation or structure, to someone not well versed in the actual subject being described. But any such illustrative use of such analogies relies heavily on the one proposing the analogy to ensure that the analogy is correctly chosen and applied.

One can paint a picture of the three inch minnow that they did catch, as easily as they can paint a picture of the three fathom shark that they neither caught nor even saw. Painting a scary shark picture and scaring someone with the picture provides zero proof that one encountered a shark, or even went to sea, much less actually caught the shark.

Now, as this applies to flat earth theories ... some people, whose areas of expertise don't include much mathematics or geology or astronomy, probably still understand "flat" (as in table in front of them, or the floor beneath them) and "earth" (as in the ground outside that they might walk on.) However trying to demonstrate to such people that other things are true, or are lies, by using an analogy with the concept of "a flat earth", proves nothing. It often misleads, to a sometimes absurd degree, and frustrates those of us who happen to be more competent in such subjects as mathematics, geology, and astronomy.

Those who know better and still put forth such false analogies are guilty of intellectual fraud, and those who don't know better are guilty of intellectual naivety when they accept such false analogies as convincing arguments in support of false conclusions.

Such misuse of analogies to bamboozle the insufficiently clueful is epidemic in our times (and likely in times past and future as well.) I would put much of the popularization of conventional "modern" science (relativity, quantum mechanics, etc) in that category, as well as some more unconventional "science" (for example time travel, as commonly understood in the alternative media.)

Thus is the significance of "flat earth" theories ... it is a well known example of such a misapplication of analogies (flatness and earthiness, combined, in this case) that happens to have a non-negligible number of people on both "sides" (those who know better, and those who don't), and as usual with such misapplication of analogies, it is an example of the frustration engendered in those who do happen to know better, by those who spout off as if they know enough to participate in such a discussion, at least to the point of asking questions, but who don't know enough to realize or even understand that the very basis for their comments and questions is the gross misapplication of an analogy.