Gamma Amino Butyric Acid

[shaberon]

I am talking about some stuff often abbreviated as GABA, a non-protein amino acid.

I found this rather strange. I saw someone start taking it for the effects (in this case, improved sleep), without any kind of diagnosis or any real reason, why try this instead of something else.

From my off the cuff understanding of herbalism, it's kind of an "alert" to hear of someone taking an individual compound, a specific chemical. For instance, if you have estrogen issues, then we know there are ways you can basically eat estrogen to directly supplement it to the body. In herbalism, this approach is usually "in a pinch", with the long-term concept being, not to do it *for* the body, but instead, to blend multiple compounds into a substance that encourages the body to do its job on its own.

GABA does have a role in the body, to suppress stimuli, so to be taking it, is like saying, I can't obtain this nutrient, or my system is unable to do the work to provide it.

I didn't know where it normally came from, so I said, either you must ingest this from something, or it's synthesized, or maybe it's secreted by the pancreas.

Here's the odd thing. It actually is synthesized from Glutamic Acid via vitamin B6 and one other thing. So, the natural sources of Glutamic Acid are...gluten, and monosodium glutamate, such as found in tomatoes. The brain then uses it to suppress transmissions, and it works similarly elsewhere, especially...in the pancreas, it is secreted along with insulin to suppress an enzyme that counteracts insulin.

All of a sudden, we're tinkering with diabetes, and the whole gluten intolerance and MSG types of debates. Perhaps, it is important...to eat your gluten and MSG...?

Now in this case, it actually works, noticeably. I don't understand why it would work, unless a person lacks the three ingredients that make it; or, having the constituents, they are for some reason unable to run the synthesis; or else GABA is not really the problem, but the extra boost is able to combat a symptom of another cause.

Anyone familiar with it?

[Olaf]

A lot of people (about 10%) are suffering from cryptopyroluria, which in most cases is an bad side-effect of nitric oxyde in the body (NO = nitrosative stress). NO reacts with vitamines, causes loss of essential trace elements and it also reacts with encymes, containing these trace elements. The last mentioned effect is probably also the cause for crytpopyrroluria (KPU).

Having KPU you have a steady loss of vitamin B6, zinc and manganese via urine. With time one gets strong deficiencies of B6, zinc and manganese.

Zinc + B6 are needed to generate activated B6 (P5P), which is needed to produce the neurotransmitters serotonine and dopamine. P5P is also needed to built the precessors 5-HTP and L-dopa. That's why people with KPU mainly suffer with brain symptoms, depression, bad concentration. A name for this state is ADS. When the production of GABA is also reduced, it will change to ADHS/ADHD.

From my patients with KPU about 5% need addional GABA. The others do not.

[shaberon]

I see. That sounds like "GABA can reduce symptoms of another cause", in this example, an excess of NO leading to cryptopyroluria, which wastes the precursors not just for GABA, but serotonin and dopamine as well.

That's a pretty significant possibility, probably something everyone should be aware of, as it sounds like another basic contaminant that slowly ruins the system, and may lead you to look at other, more complicated things, for an explanation.

Edit: after looking around, it seems KPU can be genetically or environmentally induced. The big environmental inducer right now, seems to be arginine supplements. However, Nitric Oxide also comes from smoking. Also, Inducible NO Synthase, can be produced by macrophages on a continuous basis, which would seem to be the body's highest source from within. The person in question does have an elevated white cell count and passes a high level of creatine, which so far, sounds like it matches excessive NO. One should not self-diagnose for KPU, as that involves urine testing for very specific metabolites, but this question of NO balance seems pretty fundamental for the human being.

[Flash]

A lot of people (about 10%) are suffering from cryptopyroluria, which in most cases is an bad side-effect of nitric oxyde in the body (NO = nitrosative stress). NO reacts with vitamines, causes loss of essential trace elements and it also reacts with encymes, containing these trace elements. The last mentioned effect is probably also the cause for crytpopyrroluria (KPU).

Having KPU you have a steady loss of vitamin B6, zinc and manganese via urine. With time one gets strong deficiencies of B6, zinc and manganese.

Zinc + B6 are needed to generate activated B6 (P5P), which is needed to produce the neurotransmitters serotonine and dopamine. P5P is also needed to built the precessors 5-HTP and L-dopa. That's why people with KPU mainly suffer with brain symptoms, depression, bad concentration. A name for this state is ADS. When the production of GABA is also reduced, it will change to ADHS/ADHD.

From my patients with KPU about 5% need addional GABA. The others do not.

people who take 5HTP which is a serotonine precursor helping for depression, or yet because their system is naturally low in serotonine, would it be preferable that they take B6, zinc and manganese instead? or GABA?

And what is exactly KPU? (did a google search and did not find satisfactory answers)

any link with creatinine of genetic impairment?

Interesting, I would very much like to know more re: for my daughter

[Tam]

All of a sudden, we're tinkering with diabetes, and the whole gluten intolerance and MSG types of debates. Perhaps, it is important...to eat your gluten and MSG...?


Here is my two cents about that. I think that the problem with gluten and MSG is not in the compounds themselves. MSG and gluten are both naturally-occurring. I think, rather, their "toxicity" lies in the following:modern agricultural practices; unhinged, shortsighted, and unregulated genetic modification; and a generally f***ed diet.

With the exception of those who have genuine intolerances (and these people are in the minority), MSG and gluten harm no one. They are totally benign, healthy compounds that the body could well use. Monosodium glutamate (MSG) is totally harmless, in its purest form. It is abundant in kombu, a species of perennial kelp used as a foundation in the superfood miso soup, as well as several other places. The powdery sheen on dried kombu? None other than raw, good ol' MSG.

If the kombu is left untreated (at least, not with shady chemical additives), and harvested organically, the MSG found on kombu is actually beneficial to one's health.

Like all good things, though, it is easy to ruin.

The MSG that is sprinkled liberally in Southeast Asian cuisine is highly processed. It's as far removed from its humble origins on kombu as ultra-pasteurized, hormone-laden, 1% milk is from the fresh, thick, creamy stuff stock full of nutrients taken straight from the teet of a healthy, happy cow. The crystalline MSG you can buy by the pound has all kinds of other additives and preservatives in them, and those are what give people the headaches, the nausea, and the other slew of health issues. There is also a huge placebo effect, but that's its own thing.

As for gluten, the same rule applies. I went to Morocco a few years back, where wheat is a staple. However, it is grown and harvested the way we in the West forgot long ago: in small pastures, owned communally by villages, and reaped by hand. There are no pesticides, no bleaching, no giant silos. Old women and children harvest it by hand, and there are far fewer kernels yielded per crop, as nature originally designed it.


The wheat found in supermarkets, in all our food, and in most of our available sources is nothing like this. It has been genetically modified to yield far more per crop, at a cost in nutritional value. The entire thing is sifted and used, which for thousands of years has been a no-no. In Morocco, they would spend hours and hours painstakingly removing each grain from its husk, because the husk is not digestible and has 0 nutritional value. Furthermore, the whole grain is not to be used. Most of it must also be disposed of. Contrary to what some so-called nutritionists want you to believe, whole-grain breads and flours are NOT good for you. It's actually the total opposite. They are BAD for you. Like cellulose, they are nigh-impossible to digest and are nutritionally worthless.

It's just that it's too much of a b*tch to seperate the wheat from the chaff, then split each kernel to get the part you want. It is not cost effective for the top 1% , the big-hat shareholders of the multibillion dollar food industry.

So instead, they throw it all in the grinder, make sh*tty bread, and market it to ignorant, consumeristic Instagram fitness girls who don't know any better.

Oh, and bread? Most bread nowadays is garbage as well. Bread needs to ferment for at least 3 hours in order to bring any nutritional value. Chemically, enzymes need to break down and ferment if the bread is to A) nourish and B) be digested. Most of the bread nowadays doesn't rise past 1 hour. So it's effectively worthless, empty calories. Good only for bloating your stomach.

So it's not that MSG, or gluten, or even GMOs that are bad in and of themselves. It's all the other crap we do to it that poisons us.

Also, on that note, I don't know what it is, but there is something in the food in America. In all of it. Doesn't matter if you eat an apple, some kale, a cheeto, or bacon. It has...something in it. Something that fogs your mind. Something that makes you nauseous. Something that stimulates the appetite, creates cravings. You can almost taste it. You know how all fast food has that same "grossness" to it? That is what I'm talking about.

When I went to Morrocco, and, in that same month, France, is when I realized it. Even in Paris, the food felt so much cleaner. First of all, the eggs were orange, not pale yellow. The milk wasn't snow-white, the butter was yellow. Fruits and vegetables were largely available seasonally, and much smaller. Chicken breasts weren't the size of my head.

Here in America, I eat huge quantities each day in order to feel full. 2 large chicken thighs and a full cup of rice is standard portion sizes.

In these countries, I ate 1/4 as much, and got fuller, for longer. My mind cleared up. My stomach and digestive issues that plague me year-round went away. I had more energy, less fatigue, less slumps.

Also, the produce tasted amazing, and everything just felt...fresher, more natural.

I have no idea what they're putting in our food in the land of the "free", but my gut (pun not intended) is telling me it's not good, and deliberately put in everything.

Have any of you noticed how American girls have gigantic breasts compared to most of the world, at much younger ages?

Something is amiss.

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread. Just things I felt needed to be pointed out :)

[Flash]

I experienced the same in Europe: ate less, had tastier food, felt much more filled and healthy. Lost weight. Europeans, you would not believe the scrap food we have inNorth America in what is supposed to be healthy food, namely fruits., vegetables and meat.




All of a sudden, we're tinkering with diabetes, and the whole gluten intolerance and MSG types of debates. Perhaps, it is important...to eat your gluten and MSG...?


Here is my two cents about that. I think that the problem with gluten and MSG is not in the compounds themselves. MSG and gluten are both naturally-occurring. I think, rather, their "toxicity" lies in the following:modern agricultural practices; unhinged, shortsighted, and unregulated genetic modification; and a generally f***ed diet.

With the exception of those who have genuine intolerances (and these people are in the minority), MSG and gluten harm no one. They are totally benign, healthy compounds that the body could well use. Monosodium glutamate (MSG) is totally harmless, in its purest form. It is abundant in kombu, a species of perennial kelp used as a foundation in the superfood miso soup, as well as several other places. The powdery sheen on dried kombu? None other than raw, good ol' MSG.

If the kombu is left untreated (at least, not with shady chemical additives), and harvested organically, the MSG found on kombu is actually beneficial to one's health.

Like all good things, though, it is easy to ruin.

The MSG that is sprinkled liberally in Southeast Asian cuisine is highly processed. It's as far removed from its humble origins on kombu as ultra-pasteurized, hormone-laden, 1% milk is from the fresh, thick, creamy stuff stock full of nutrients taken straight from the teet of a healthy, happy cow. The crystalline MSG you can buy by the pound has all kinds of other additives and preservatives in them, and those are what give people the headaches, the nausea, and the other slew of health issues. There is also a huge placebo effect, but that's its own thing.

As for gluten, the same rule applies. I went to Morocco a few years back, where wheat is a staple. However, it is grown and harvested the way we in the West forgot long ago: in small pastures, owned communally by villages, and reaped by hand. There are no pesticides, no bleaching, no giant silos. Old women and children harvest it by hand, and there are far fewer kernels yielded per crop, as nature originally designed it.


The wheat found in supermarkets, in all our food, and in most of our available sources is nothing like this. It has been genetically modified to yield far more per crop, at a cost in nutritional value. The entire thing is sifted and used, which for thousands of years has been a no-no. In Morocco, they would spend hours and hours painstakingly removing each grain from its husk, because the husk is not digestible and has 0 nutritional value. Furthermore, the whole grain is not to be used. Most of it must also be disposed of. Contrary to what some so-called nutritionists want you to believe, whole-grain breads and flours are NOT good for you. It's actually the total opposite. They are BAD for you. Like cellulose, they are nigh-impossible to digest and are nutritionally worthless.

It's just that it's too much of a b*tch to seperate the wheat from the chaff, then split each kernel to get the part you want. It is not cost effective for the top 1% , the big-hat shareholders of the multibillion dollar food industry.

So instead, they throw it all in the grinder, make sh*tty bread, and market it to ignorant, consumeristic Instagram fitness girls who don't know any better.

Oh, and bread? Most bread nowadays is garbage as well. Bread needs to ferment for at least 3 hours in order to bring any nutritional value. Chemically, enzymes need to break down and ferment if the bread is to A) nourish and B) be digested. Most of the bread nowadays doesn't rise past 1 hour. So it's effectively worthless, empty calories. Good only for bloating your stomach.

So it's not that MSG, or gluten, or even GMOs that are bad in and of themselves. It's all the other crap we do to it that poisons us.

Also, on that note, I don't know what it is, but there is something in the food in America. In all of it. Doesn't matter if you eat an apple, some kale, a cheeto, or bacon. It has...something in it. Something that fogs your mind. Something that makes you nauseous. Something that stimulates the appetite, creates cravings. You can almost taste it. You know how all fast food has that same "grossness" to it? That is what I'm talking about.

When I went to Morrocco, and, in that same month, France, is when I realized it. Even in Paris, the food felt so much cleaner. First of all, the eggs were orange, not pale yellow. The milk wasn't snow-white, the butter was yellow. Fruits and vegetables were largely available seasonally, and much smaller. Chicken breasts weren't the size of my head.

Here in America, I eat huge quantities each day in order to feel full. 2 large chicken thighs and a full cup of rice is standard portion sizes.

In these countries, I ate 1/4 as much, and got fuller, for longer. My mind cleared up. My stomach and digestive issues that plague me year-round went away. I had more energy, less fatigue, less slumps.

Also, the produce tasted amazing, and everything just felt...fresher, more natural.

I have no idea what they're putting in our food in the land of the "free", but my gut (pun not intended) is telling me it's not good, and deliberately put in everything.

Have any of you noticed how American girls have gigantic breasts compared to most of the world, at much younger ages?

Something is amiss.

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread. Just things I felt needed to be pointed out :)

[shaberon]

Not at all a hijack to point out the basic usefulness of MSG/gluten, since these are the ordinary building blocks for GABA.

Especially since there is a huge public wariness about them, and yes, the main issue is probably traditional food preparation versus newfangled processing.

It sounds to me like the main root issue around GABA is a simple "lockout", same as what is easily found in plant growth. Too much acid or too much of a given ion makes an environment where the plant cannot absorb a basic nutrient, no matter how much you add.

With goats, we have found that iron in well water locks out copper from their system, and on this simple thing, they are almost as sensitive as plants. They literally are fed bits of snipped up copper wire to compensate.

So on everything that revolves around GABA, you must have the "ingredients" Glutamic Acid (gluten, MSG) along with the B6, zinc, manganese...but then an excess of Nitric Oxide will lock it out. Three common ways to get an excess would be smoking, arginine supplements, or an elevated white cell count producing it.

If you have the ingredients, and no overload of Nitric Oxide, then this aspect of your system should work pretty much automatically. I think that is the point that only 5% of the patients really need GABA for some more intricate reason.

Edit: another reason one should not self-diagnose for KPU is that the symptoms are almost the same as under-methylation. This is a more complex thing that I wouldn't be able to generalize or simplify.