Richard Dolan (yes, Richard Dolan) talks about women, sex, and his fear of failure

[Bill Ryan]

Folks, this is REALLY REALLY interesting to listen to.

Great Kudos to Richard Dolan for having the courage and integrity to process these personal issues in public. (Who else ever does this?)

The piece in question is the last half hour of Richard's 15 Jan 2018 radio show, starting at 1:29:14.

Here's the show archive:


http://kgraradioarchives.com/shows/richard-dolan-show/?loc=2018#archive

Here's the whole 15 Jan show:


http://kgraradioarchives.com/Shows/richard-dolan-show/2018/RDS011518KGRA%20-%20The%20Richard%20Dolan%20Show%20-%20US%20Gov%20Admission%20UFOs.mp3

And here's the half hour that's the subject of this thread.


http://avalonlibrary.net/The_Richard_Dolan_Show_15_Jan_2018_Getting_Personal.mp3

I guarantee that every man and woman listening to this will have opinions and reactions.

It'd be MOST interesting to hear everyone's views.

[Mike]

Bill posted this radio show episode in the mod chat yesterday and what you see below is my initial reaction(copied and pasted. I've only added paragraph breaks).

As I was saying to Bill today, I think I was a little triggered by Richard's comments at the end of his interview. I, perhaps erroneously, equated some of it to an ex girlfriend of mine who I felt was trying to change me all the time, and how I regret justifying all her attempts and how I played along and compromised my integrity and so forth. Richard's wife, on the other hand, has been infinitely patient with him and what she feels his flaws are, and he's embracing the opportunity to change into what he feels is a better man. I applaud it and I applaud his candor.

Bill rightfully pointed out that what Richard is doing is simply honoring his wife. Viewed from that angle it all takes on a very different meaning for me. But I still think there is some value in my initial reaction, so I'll include it here to maybe kick off the discussion a little...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



just finished listening to Richard..

I love Richard Dolan, but i think he's being a little hard on himself. and now maybe he's overcompensating by playing what i call "the noble knight". i don't know if it's any more authentic or dignified than any of his previous incarnations, which, on the whole, were never too bad to begin with!

of course no one should be ogling other women when they're with their wife or girlfriend; that's insensitive and just plain obnoxious. but, in and of itself, noticing other attractive people is quite normal. and healthy. i wouldn't label it 'objectifying'. and look, women ogle too!:) i would even argue that denying one's desire to recognize another's outward beauty is less authentic and further away from one's true self than actively suppressing it. when we're growing up, as kids, we naturally outgrow our toys. we set them aside because we have no desire to play with them anymore. but it has to happen organically. if you're forcing it, the obsession just jumps from the toys to the denial.

it sounds to me like Richard wants to be this new version of himself, and is trying to convince himself that this is the way to go...but hasn't quite left his old persona behind, for better or worse. so he's adopting a new mentality, a new meme, which is sort of like taking on another of the 'sub personalities' he's trying to rid himself of in the first place.

when i was 22, my 18 yr old self embarrassed me. when i was 25, my 22 yr old self embarrassed me. when i was 28, my 25 yr old self embarrassed me, and on and on it goes. one thing i've learned is, it never ends. There are posts i've written here less than a year ago that i've recently reread that literally caused me to sweat with embarrassment. but i had to write them to get them out of my system. if i were actively suppressing them in the name of propriety, i'd still be writing them now. i can't tell you how many times ive said to myself, 'i won't change much from here'..and sure enough, i did. it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Richard's saying something totally different in a year or 2.

[Praxis]

I have the upmost respect for Richard Dolan. He is a constant source of even handed analysis and opinion.
Even more than his UFO information, which is fantastic and unparalleled in the field, his analysis and opinions on political matters as well is always refreshing and insightful.

Looking is not a problem, lingering is, especially if it is unwanted.
To me, this was not a case of White Knighting, as another poster mentioned, but rather a public declaration to both himself and to his partner(I assume wife at this point).
It is difficult to admit something you dont like about yourself, and even more so to do it on a public forum.

I think the most important part of his admission was that every person is a being that is just like you and is not an object to be used in any way(either sexually or otherwise).
Far too often it is easy to abstract other people who are outside of your personal sphere and Dunbar number. If you do this, you become ok with allowing all sorts of things to occur around the world(war, trafficking, exploitation, abuse of rights, etc. . .)

What he did was not easy and should be supported.

I want to add that lust is a beast not easily tamed. I know that I personally struggle with it.

[Innocent Warrior]

Richard said, "women listening are saying whoopdeedo you finally got the memo". I'm not, I hope he sees this thread because I want to thank him for discussing that, I never, EVER thought I'd hear a man earnestly say that. I have thought exactly the same thing about men and that societal programming.

This society has taught me it's natural for men (also women but to a lesser degree) to look, regardless if one is a part of a devoted couple or not. I unfortunately never accepted such low standards to be true but I'm supposed to know better than to voice that or I'll be written off as damaged or insecure.

The way I see it is exactly how Richard explained it and I have a much grander vision than that of society's of what a man in his authentic state can be...gosh, how devine, I like my vision much more. Same with women, coz let's get real, so many chicks love that ****, oh a man is staring at me again, I'm so pretty. Pathetic. I've lost count of how many times I've told my female friends to get over themselves, that men look at everyone and it wouldn't matter how beautiful his wife or GF is, that they're beautiful because they simply are, not because men look at them. Where's your sense of sisterhood, give them a glare like I do. They never listen, it must feel as good to be looked at as it is to look, but hey, don't listen to me, I'm just damaged, it's not that the programming didn't work on me, right? (Rhetorical, I'm done caring what anyone thinks about me and this issue.)

I've imagined men without this programming, a partner I can thoroughly and utterly respect but I learned long ago that they likely won't exist for a very long time yet because too few people, both men and women, get what Richard was talking about.

But for the record, it hurt like hell every time someone I was in love with and who's supposed to be in love with me looked at another woman, because I was IN LOVE with him. And contrary to popular belief, not all women appreciate being looked at in that way. But hey, thanks to all the truly insecure women out there in the clubs with their girls out, I often walked close behind you knowing I'd become invisible while squeezing through the crowd.

[Mike]

Richard said, "women listening are saying whoopdeedo you finally got the memo". I'm not, I hope he sees this thread because I want to thank him for discussing that, I never, EVER thought I'd hear a man earnestly say that. I have thought exactly the same thing about men and that societal programming.

This society has taught me it's natural for men (also women but to a lesser degree) to look, regardless if one is a part of a devoted couple or not. I unfortunately never accepted such low standards to be true but I'm supposed to know better than to voice that or I'll be written off as damaged or insecure.

The way I see it is exactly how Richard explained it and I have a much grander vision than that of society's of what a man in his authentic state can be...gosh, how devine, I like my vision much more. Same with women, coz let's get real, so many chicks love that ****, oh a man is staring at me again, I'm so pretty. Pathetic. I've lost count of how many times I've told my female friends to get over themselves, that men look at everyone and it wouldn't matter how beautiful his wife or GF is, that they're beautiful because they simply are, not because men look at them. Where's your sense of sisterhood, give them a glare like I do. They never listen, it must feel as good to be looked at as it is to look, but hey, don't listen to me, I'm just damaged, it's not that the programming didn't work on me, right? (Rhetorical, I'm done caring what anyone thinks about me and this issue.)

I've imagined men without this programming, a partner I can thoroughly and utterly respect but I learned long ago that they likely won't exist for a very long time yet because too few people, both men and women, get what Richard was talking about.

But for the record, it hurt like hell every time someone I was in love with and who's supposed to be in love with me looked at another woman, because I was IN LOVE with him. And contrary to popular belief, not all women appreciate being looked at in that way. But hey, thanks to all the truly insecure women out there in the clubs with their girls out, I often walked close behind you knowing I'd become invisible while squeezing through the crowd.


I don't think you sound insecure or damaged Rach. You sound perfectly reasonable. I've been with girlfriends who have both blatantly and subtly noticed other men while in my presence, and it's pretty damn hurtful. That's not cool at all. I hear you!

It might be prudent to point out that there is a difference between noticing/appreciating someone's beauty and following them around panting with your tongue on the ground, right? I would describe one act as natural and the other as unnatural.

If I see an attractive woman dressed to impress and clearly begging for attention, I usually *won't* pay her any attention, because I don't want to give her the satisfaction. But sometimes there is a woman dressed very casually, and still standing out for one reason or another, and I can't help but notice. She may not even be what you'd call conventionally pretty, but there will be something about her that attracts me. And I have to say, I don't feel I've been societally programmed to notice this, nor do i feel ashamed or morally substandard. Then again, I'm happily single, and not sitting there gawking like some lunatic; I just sort of notice, inwardly appreciate, and keep it moving, ya know?

Of course the dynamic changes when one is coupled up. This conversation can go in all kinds of directions, right down to if monogamy is even natural. Marriage may be more accurately the result of societal programming than a single guy with a roving eye, if you think about it. I'm sort of a romantic, and an idealist, and I'm pretty traditional in many ways....so I'd like to believe monogamy is both possible and healthy; and I'd like to believe the woman I'm in love with is interested in me and only me, and all that. So i'm sort of caught between my ideals and my real world experiences. It sounded to me like Richard was too.

[Sunny-side-up]

Thank you for posting that Bill.
A very inspiring, refreshing and uplifting talk by Mr Doland.
He is looking into to his self and seeing the contamination that we all suffer from in one way or another, he is being his own Guru.

I wonder how we all might see the rest of the world if we could look through the eye's of 3 year old's.
Innocent 3 year old's playing together, just enjoying each others company with out any sexual bias towards each other, neither feeling visually or sexually inferior or superior, and not adding any sexual desires to their playing.
They see the real thing we don't, but they are children we we are supposed to be adults, things are not so simple for us :(
We as adults need to contain and remember what it was to be a child.
To be able to view the things of this world that we, as grown ups we think to be so important, we could see so much more, we are looking but not really seeing.
We become tangled parts of the Pandora box, engrossed in our own ans inposed mind games.

He had and took a great opportunity to look inwards so he could see how he looks and behaves outwardly, that helps put him on a good path to being enlightened.

Now if we had people like him helping to govern this world 0.o
What a great ambassador for any other world visitors ha.

[Praxis]

I really suggest a listen to his most recent show on 1/29. (http://kgraradioarchives.com/Shows/richard-dolan-show/2018/RDS012918KGRA%20-%20The%20Richard%20Dolan%20Show%20-%20UFO%20nEWS%20ON%20THE%20rISE.mp3)

I am so thankful to have a figure like him out there speaking about issues I find to be very important and are the basis for much of what and why i post on this site.

[Flash]

I have a simple question: why does it takes testosterone levels to go down (with age) for spirituality or simple humanity to go up? in men.. Regarding objectification of woman.

I am pretty sure that not only what Dolan's girlfriend is telling him about his behavior of lurking on other women but there is much more towards objectification(when a woman tells her man, it has become more than looking usually, because looking we got so used to it that we shut up, as Dolan said)

Why does it takes men to be 50 years old plus to realise what they do by putting their second brain in the first place? (second brain at the first place because it is quite often that second brain that guides their life - i call it brain because sex drive becomes their only reasoning capacity).

On the other hand, sex drive is so intense in humans that it is quite impossible to cure a rapist and still less a pedophile - when an habit of thinking/behaving is linked to sex, it is about impossible to undo. Same for lurking.

Canadians in general are not that obvous when they look (if compared to latin people for example). I had a very bright high level engineer friend from Turkey, where lurking is very obvious, who told me that when she immigrated in Canada, she felt much less pretty and not sexy, because she was not as harrassed any more lolll.

She realised that it was only the way men look that had changed, but that she had learned to evaluate herself based on their looks at her. She had to remake her own inner self esteem ways of thinking of herself as a woman. This is also ingrained in women the wrong way, them getting used to be objectified and basing their self esteem on something that is utterly on the surface.

And it is gettng worst with all the porn so easily accessible to teenagers where the objectification of woman is at ist upmost state.

Of course, objectification of any human beings will make us go much below whom we truly are. No better than Nazis or KKK. No better than using workers without taking into account their human needs, you can't produce, you are out.

I had a man tell me that he felt like he was in a candy store when he divorced, with all these women around. As if his previous wife, and women, were punishing men by asking some exclusivity and wanting intimate personal relationships.

I often felt that men would either want sex, or if not, put us in the mother role, quite unconsciously, both roles that are very unsatisfying to grown up women.

I remember one boyfriend years ago telling me that he first married his mother, his second time around he married his daughter, and that he hoped the third time he would marry his equal. He was slowly getting it, but not quite there yet, if he had been I would have stayed with him.

When women find sensitive males, when in their thirties over, who got it, they snap them and do not let go. They are a rare breed. For the others, we tell ourselves "ah.. not again".

Objectification of women / men touches the most important individual in our lives and it is directly damaging in a private, inner way that could be quite visible right away if we payed attention.

And this objectification is more damanging yet to very sensitive people, who can feel everything, those that we want to help into evolving or those we want as life partner.

Do women lurk, yes . But believe me, it is much less intense (in me and my friends at least). I persnnally learned to look in order to give it back to my boyfriend, so that he would finally feel what it was like not to be the first and foremost. And he still did not understand..... we just split, because when someone is at the step of giving back, the relationship is starting to be over.

At least, Dolan finally got it. I just wonder if his new girlfriend is about the same age as his, not 20 years younger... I see a lot a men in their sixties who haven't gotten it and most probably never will.

I know my text is not entirely coherent, it is images and thoughts I had here and there throughout life. Each one could be developed further.

Anyhow, this morning, this is it.... for my contribution to the thread.

[Baby Steps]

Nah, he's just demonising a natural male program- looking at potential partners is a genetic process of assessing them for procreation. Why get tortured about men's hard wiring that nature gave us? (and women too...)

Emits evil snigger through his Loki mask.

I came to the same point as RD on this issue, maybe by a different route. The leering at women felt demeaning. It was feeding the wrong wolf. Over feeding it made me lustful, frustrated, distracted, trivial, unsatisfied, and offensive to others.

Empathy got me thinking about how the other person was feeling.

Spirituality said: You are soooo lucky- look at your assets! No 1 is a good woman. Nurture and protect your assets.

A man is not complete unless his significant other is happy - and happy with him.

[Flash]

Nah, he's just demonising a natural male program- looking at potential partners is a genetic process of assessing them for procreation. Why get tortured about men's hard wiring that nature gave us? (and women too...)

Emits evil snigger through his Loki mask.

I came to the same point as RD on this issue, maybe by a different route. The leering at women felt demeaning. It was feeding the wrong wolf. Over feeding it made me lustful, frustrated, distracted, trivial, unsatisfied, and offensive to others.

Empathy got me thinking about how the other person was feeling.

Spirituality said: You are soooo lucky- look at your assets! No 1 is a good woman. Nurture and protect your assets.

A man is not complete unless his significant other is happy - and happy with him.

You got the point, why go above the nature's inprint for reproduction? Because if feels demeaning. Because it is not truly who we are. Because we ought to grow up. Because we can release the complete humanity, sex drive and empathy/heart with that partner of ours, make sex be sublime and as much fun as one can because it is in a trusting loving fulfilling relationship.

Believe me, when men do not grow through chasing around even if only by lurking, women react in consequence - i.e. she will have sex without love, or with some pain, or just to compete with other females. Men end up with a woman who is not full - not fully herself, the true intimate self.

And, there it is very fulfilling for a woman to know she is IT for her man, then she will start teasing her man about other women's beauty. She does not feel threatened anymore. For this, her man has to have matured passed mammalian programming.

------------

I wrote my post while you were writing yours Bill, we seem to agree.

[Bill Ryan]

Thanks and great respect to all for this important and very interesting discussion. :flower:

My $.02 (and it might just be $.01!): I'm wondering if one factor in this complex equation is the stability, maturity and mutual confidence/trust within the relationship.

Richard and his fiancée Tracey (they're not married yet) are relatively new together. And kudos to them both for being able to talk so openly about these things with each other. (Many couples never do, even if they've been married for 20 years.)

But there's another slant on this. One couple I know, who've been married for a while, and check all the boxes of stability, maturity and confidence/trust, just have fun with all this. Their mutual joke (and this is how they regularly tease each other) is:

"You can look, but don't touch."

:)

[Daozen]

This civilization (such as it is) is built on the unbearable urges of testosterone. Pretty much everything men do is to impress some chick. Without women we would probably not build bridges or telephone boxes. Do you think I learned electric guitar to impress a roomful of sweaty men? hahaha. Ogling is wrong but who can't help noticing? A flash of legs puts a spring in your step, and inspires you to do more pushups. If you want us to stop looking, ladies, quit wearing leather boots.

Competition for prime females means everyone ups their game in their respective fields, and civilization benefits. Don't supress it, channel it.

Boys will be boys,

A demon ignored is a God born.

[seehas]

This civilization (such as it is) is built on the unbearable urges of testosterone. Pretty much everything men do is to impress some chick. Without women we would probably not build bridges or telephone boxes. Do you think I learned electric guitar to impress a roomful of sweaty men? hahaha. Ogling is wrong but who can't help noticing? A flash of legs puts a spring in your step, and inspires you to do more pushups. If you want us to stop looking, ladies, quit wearing leather boots.

Competition for prime females means everyone ups their game in their respective fields, and civilization benefits. Don't supress it, channel it.

Boys will be boys,

A demon ignored is a God born.

this post is a mirror of what *they* want you to be, a box labeled as MAN and how to be the MAN gets programmed in your head by television and society, your body is driven by hormons and everyone that is not working like is is a strange guy.

i was never part of this but, maybe my testosterone levels are unnatural low

everyone is different the box labeled as MAN or WOMAN does not exist for me.


dont get me wrong i love woman but i would never start to play the guitar to impress girls, but hej as i said everyone is different.

[Hervé]

Some wise person, way back when, said something like: "Give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar..."

... in some other words, attribute to "body" what belongs to it... it was built for the survival of itself and its species... same for the "mind" and its malleable programming ability to interact with the environment... and then, same with "YOU" and one's ability to comprehend what's what and what belongs to what and guide what's appropriate to do or not do and correct obsolete perceptions as well as tweak old ones to correspond to current environment.

Acknowledging each for what they are and their purpose without judging seems like a good start, I think.

[Joe Akulis]

I'm going to get flamed and stomped on for pointing out an elephant here, but, dude, if my wife and I walk past a woman in a burka, you won't catch me checking her out.

Yes, I'm being slightly hyperbolic with that, but it should make the point. If women don't like their men stealing a glance, then confront all the women who are walking around in spandex and showing their stuff to the world and put a stop to it.

Otherwise, don't complain. :-)

I am interested in seeing the comparisons from one country to another, and I'm glad we can get some insights from different forum members. I've always felt in the US, it's a lot more difficult simply because of what women wear out in public. We kind of abandoned modesty in my country a while back.

If you take away the fashion factor from the situation, does the problem still exist? It very well could, but I wouldn't be able to tell you, alas...

Joe

[norman]

I'm confused about what Richard was trying to say. I'd probably have to have walked around a few supermarkets with him in his single days to know how seriously out of order he was with his oggling etc.

If I understand his point, as it stands, I think he's basically wrong. I say that because I think he's on a hiding to nothing if he's so intent upon refusing to actually live in his own body, as it is. I'm tempted to call it all romantic clap trap, but I like the guy, oh and I'm a hopeless single, too :)

[Sunny-side-up]

Just adding:
It's not all about testosterone.

I might well look at an attractive women but that dose not mean I looked in a sexual way/intent.
I love balance of form, style, beauty, not just in females but any gender or item.
If it looks good I like to look, but not as to cause discomfort in others.

[Bluegreen]

Why does it takes men to be 50 years old plus to realise what they do by putting their second brain in the first place?

Youth is wasted on the young ;)

Because I've become convinced that thoughts are real, physical things, my recent thinking has been similar to Mr Dolan's. But this wasn't always so. My late wife used to say, "Put your eyes back in your head", but she never held it against me. Her attitude was: Every man a pig, every woman a bitch, deal with it.

[Hervé]

...

http://bm.img.com.ua/nxs/img/prikol/images/large/0/1/293710_765870.jpg


...on the other hand...

http://www.interestingthingsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/16-statues-around-the-world-polished-by-perverted-tourists4.jpg
... considering the"de-weathering " and polish of the brass in that area... not the first hand to have wandered around...


Some ritual from ancient times when fashion wasn't so revealing...
http://img10.deviantart.net/784e/i/2008/198/8/0/downtown_tits_by_1whiterabbit.jpg

[Mike]

Herve I asked you politely to not post that pic of me. That was supposed to be between you and me. What the hell?

[Kristin]

LOL< to the above pics!

I've been good friends with Richard for a number of years, in my opinion his observation of himself was objective, brave, and true. I'm continually impressed when people embrace the ability to step out of one's own way and create spaces of growth and development. Kudos to Richard for not only supporting his relationship but supporting his own journey into a loving future. I have no doubt that he and Tracey will continue to have open and compassionate discussions which will enable them to embrace an incredible long lasting future together. Perhaps we can all take lessons in appreciation of beauty, class, respect, and personal growth from this intimate openness shared by one of our own? The true warrior here is Tracey ;) I'm looking forward to many fine years of friendship with both!

[Daozen]

This civilization (such as it is) is built on the unbearable urges of testosterone. Pretty much everything men do is to impress some chick. Without women we would probably not build bridges or telephone boxes. Do you think I learned electric guitar to impress a roomful of sweaty men? hahaha. Ogling is wrong but who can't help noticing? A flash of legs puts a spring in your step, and inspires you to do more pushups. If you want us to stop looking, ladies, quit wearing leather boots.

Competition for prime females means everyone ups their game in their respective fields, and civilization benefits. Don't supress it, channel it.

Boys will be boys,

A demon ignored is a God born.

this post is a mirror of what *they* want you to be, a box labeled as MAN and how to be the MAN gets programmed in your head by television and society, your body is driven by hormons and everyone that is not working like is is a strange guy.

i was never part of this but, maybe my testosterone levels are unnatural low

everyone is different the box labeled as MAN or WOMAN does not exist for me.


dont get me wrong i love woman but i would never start to play the guitar to impress girls, but hej as i said everyone is different.

If this was Reddit /r/AskWomen, your response to me would've got over 100 upvotes, maybe 200. I'm in touch with my natural drives and instincts. You're reading this post because you have a body. That body was created because one night two people had biological and romantic urges so strong they could not resist. The fact that you have low testosterone or a low sex drive does not make you any more spiritually advanced than myself or anyone else. I do not think TPTB are programming guys to be genuinely masculine. Quite the opposite. They are raising a new generation of zero-exercise porn-addicted X-box wimps.

I like to play guitar for its own sake. I learn scales, and I love the feeling of nothingness that I get from playing. But the fact that women like it is a huge bonus. Some days it's what gets me through. Whether you like it or not, many guys are driven to attract and reproduce with attractive women. If such mis-adventures are beneath you, you could join a monastery. My posts are 80% sincere but there's an element of fun there. If you cannot get that, that's life. At least I know who I am.

The side-effect of these base testosterone (or oxytocin) driven instincts is fierce rivalry in all fields. Civilization benefits from healthy compeittion.

[Flash]

Makes me think of Mini Flash, my daughter. An handsome and witty one got her attention because he could play guitar, so she believed. She is always around exceptional musicians even if she is not as good as them

So come the meeting with that guy. She plays her tunes to him and he swallowed hard. She finally convinced him to take the guitar but he could not hide his inabilities. She told me it was the pit. Real bad player. That he would have been better off not trying to show off since he was naturally handsome and pleasant.

It does not always attract, trying to show off. For many women, sincerity is much more attractive. In this case, sincerity worked much better.


This civilization (such as it is) is built on the unbearable urges of testosterone. Pretty much everything men do is to impress some chick. Without women we would probably not build bridges or telephone boxes. Do you think I learned electric guitar to impress a roomful of sweaty men? hahaha. Ogling is wrong but who can't help noticing? A flash of legs puts a spring in your step, and inspires you to do more pushups. If you want us to stop looking, ladies, quit wearing leather boots.

Competition for prime females means everyone ups their game in their respective fields, and civilization benefits. Don't supress it, channel it.

Boys will be boys,

A demon ignored is a God born.

[Daozen]

Makes me think of Mini Flash, my daughter. An handsome and witty one got her attention because he could play guitar, so she believed. She is always around exceptional musicians even if she is not as good as them

So come the meeting with that guy. She plays her tunes to him and he swallowed hard. She finally convinced him to take the guitar but he could not hide his inabilities. She told me it was the pit. Real bad player. That he would have been better off not trying to show off since he was naturally handsome and pleasant.

It does not always attract, trying to show off. For many women, sincerity is much more attractive. In this case, sincerity worked much better.


As I am neither handsome nor pleasant... nor sincere, I shall stick my Ukelele, tyvm, Flash. However, I get your point. Trying too hard to impress women often goes the wrong way.

[seehas]

This civilization (such as it is) is built on the unbearable urges of testosterone. Pretty much everything men do is to impress some chick. Without women we would probably not build bridges or telephone boxes. Do you think I learned electric guitar to impress a roomful of sweaty men? hahaha. Ogling is wrong but who can't help noticing? A flash of legs puts a spring in your step, and inspires you to do more pushups. If you want us to stop looking, ladies, quit wearing leather boots.

Competition for prime females means everyone ups their game in their respective fields, and civilization benefits. Don't supress it, channel it.

Boys will be boys,

A demon ignored is a God born.

this post is a mirror of what *they* want you to be, a box labeled as MAN and how to be the MAN gets programmed in your head by television and society, your body is driven by hormons and everyone that is not working like is is a strange guy.

i was never part of this but, maybe my testosterone levels are unnatural low

everyone is different the box labeled as MAN or WOMAN does not exist for me.


dont get me wrong i love woman but i would never start to play the guitar to impress girls, but hej as i said everyone is different.

If this was Reddit /r/AskWomen, your response to me would've got over 100 upvotes, maybe 200. I'm in touch with my natural drives and instincts. You're reading this post because you have a body. That body was created because one night two people had biological and romantic urges so strong they could not resist. The fact that you have low testosterone or a low sex drive does not make you any more spiritually advanced than myself or anyone else. I do not think TPTB are programming guys to be genuinely masculine. Quite the opposite. They are raising a new generation of zero-exercise porn-addicted X-box wimps.

I like to play guitar for its own sake. I learn scales, and I love the feeling of nothingness that I get from playing. But the fact that women like it is a huge bonus. Some days it's what gets me through. Whether you like it or not, many guys are driven to attract and reproduce with attractive women. If such mis-adventures are beneath you, you could join a monastery. My posts are 80% sincere but there's an element of fun there. If you cannot get that, that's life. At least I know who I am.

The side-effect of these base testosterone (or oxytocin) driven instincts is fierce rivalry in all fields. Civilization benefits from healthy compeittion.

i feel sorry and i didnt wanted to judge you with my post ,it just remembered me how society is beeing programed and for sure was not personal so please forgive me i think i didnt picked the right words before, im for sure not more spiritual than anyone else here all i wanted was to show how different everyone is.

my feeling is that society wants man to behave and be a certain way and its programed into the minds, it plays an important part in cutting the connection to your true self.

its also about playing the genders against each other

playing a role to fit instead of beeing self

btw. refreshing different topic here on PA !

[Flash]

Well, in El Salvador, most men did not care for breast because they often see breast feeding or woen washing themselve at home n the center place where water is, covering only their buttocks.

In Turkey, 20 % are in full clothing including the head (but not the face), 20% are basically so short dresses and open top that they seem to always be at rhe Gramnys, and the rest are like in Europe or America. So anything goes and women are flirted even harass to the same level as most meditarenean countries, where you ate not a man if you do not pursuewomen a bit.

Like in Mexico, pursuing women is seen as a game, by both sexes. However the problem arise when the woman is very young, where she is defenseless, there comes the abused (i had to treathen some men of being beaten up by the family males if they would not stop harassing my niece who lived in my household). Or the harassment is way too much for beautiful women.

In Canada it is more discrete, but nevertheless insulting for the woman with the man who looks around.

Lets make it clear: do what you want, although in a discrete way, when alone , but when with your woman, respect her at least. And if possible, think heart and intelligence as well.



I'm going to get flamed and stomped on for pointing out an elephant here, but, dude, if my wife and I walk past a woman in a burka, you won't catch me checking her out.

Yes, I'm being slightly hyperbolic with that, but it should make the point. If women don't like their men stealing a glance, then confront all the women who are walking around in spandex and showing their stuff to the world and put a stop to it.

Otherwise, don't complain. :-)

I am interested in seeing the comparisons from one country to another, and I'm glad we can get some insights from different forum members. I've always felt in the US, it's a lot more difficult simply because of what women wear out in public. We kind of abandoned modesty in my country a while back.

If you take away the fashion factor from the situation, does the problem still exist? It very well could, but I wouldn't be able to tell you, alas...

Joe

[Flash]

Herve I asked you politely to not post that pic of me. That was supposed to be between you and me. What the hell?

Lol. I asked him the same for the sirenes at the bottom pics. We will have ti report him to the mods lol

[Flash]

Let me tease you in a bit blunt manner. If you still need a ukelele to flirt at 39 years old, you definitely have a problem:facepalm: lollll



Makes me think of Mini Flash, my daughter. An handsome and witty one got her attention because he could play guitar, so she believed. She is always around exceptional musicians even if she is not as good as them

So come the meeting with that guy. She plays her tunes to him and he swallowed hard. She finally convinced him to take the guitar but he could not hide his inabilities. She told me it was the pit. Real bad player. That he would have been better off not trying to show off since he was naturally handsome and pleasant.

It does not always attract, trying to show off. For many women, sincerity is much more attractive. In this case, sincerity worked much better.


As I am neither handsome nor pleasant... nor sincere, I shall stick my Ukelele, tyvm, Flash. However, I get your point. Trying too hard to impress women often goes the wrong way.

[Innocent Warrior]

I don't think you sound insecure or damaged Rach. You sound perfectly reasonable. I've been with girlfriends who have both blatantly and subtly noticed other men while in my presence, and it's pretty damn hurtful. That's not cool at all. I hear you!

It might be prudent to point out that there is a difference between noticing/appreciating someone's beauty and following them around panting with your tongue on the ground, right? I would describe one act as natural and the other as unnatural.

If I see an attractive woman dressed to impress and clearly begging for attention, I usually *won't* pay her any attention, because I don't want to give her the satisfaction. But sometimes there is a woman dressed very casually, and still standing out for one reason or another, and I can't help but notice. She may not even be what you'd call conventionally pretty, but there will be something about her that attracts me. And I have to say, I don't feel I've been societally programmed to notice this, nor do i feel ashamed or morally substandard. Then again, I'm happily single, and not sitting there gawking like some lunatic; I just sort of notice, inwardly appreciate, and keep it moving, ya know?

Of course the dynamic changes when one is coupled up. This conversation can go in all kinds of directions, right down to if monogamy is even natural. Marriage may be more accurately the result of societal programming than a single guy with a roving eye, if you think about it. I'm sort of a romantic, and an idealist, and I'm pretty traditional in many ways....so I'd like to believe monogamy is both possible and healthy; and I'd like to believe the woman I'm in love with is interested in me and only me, and all that. So i'm sort of caught between my ideals and my real world experiences. It sounded to me like Richard was too.

I regretted writing my post, it seems slightly sociopathic, with broad, generalised strokes, it was way too messy and raw...note to self, don't quit smoking and post (btw, like my creative spelling of divine? LOL)...I get caught between being 'perfect' and being me, I wrestle with plenty of programming myself.

Your reply doesn't surprise me, Mike, you're a special person, truly. I hope for you to find your true love, you deserve it.

And yes, there's a massive difference between noticing and perving. Also, I don't care to change anyone, my way has always been to love who they are and determine the appropriate relationship, deciding it's better to be friends was painful but no problem for me, but the denial makes that a far longer road than it need be. I'd even say something like, look I get that I'm an outsider with this view but I just can't take it, it's simply not for me. Between their denial and my insistence that I'm loved as I love them, I'd end up looking like an ice queen. But I am for real, I wasn't looking for a husband with a good job and a white picket fence, I was looking for true love. If I'd married some rich man for his money and sold out myself in some way then I'd accept what I'd deserve but not while being true, if you're true you deserve only the very best. I faced the prospect of being alone and I was fine with that, I'd rather that than being with someone and feeling more alone than if I was single.

But the attitude I've experienced has been unreal, it's ridiculous, that's what gave birth to my rather dense attitude towards all that, I call bull**** on it and I won't budge. Humanity is epic, I'll not budge on that either and accept some half-arsed idea of a flawed being who can do no better than the consensus of popular beliefs.

Mike, Richard used the word "realisation", that's not a noble idea, that's truth...he's a man who is truly in love.

...back to my cave.

[Jad]

I never thought to find such a post on here but it pretty much parallels what used to happen with me in my 6 year relationship.. the only difference is that we actually broke up because I couldn’t deal with it anymore. I just felt like living in a sitcom or something and that somewhere someone was actually laughing at how silly our fights are.. I admit I messed up early in the relationship but for the past 4 years I’ve been a much better man, but I guess the damage was done and she couldn’t get her confidence back and/or her trust in me. For example, anywhere we go she would scan the whole place to see if there were any girls of “my type”! And what is my type?? Of course it changes depending on whatever we were watching on Netflix.. It used to irritate me so much cause I know deep down that I’m not looking or even interested in anything else. All I wanted was peace and quiet and that relationship had everything but.. so we ended it. At the end I really can’t blame her, I keep reminding myself that I was the one who started this snowball going long time ago with my irresponsible actions early in the relationship. Unfortunately I learned that valuable lesson the hard way but it will stick with me going forward.

[DNA]

Folks, this is REALLY REALLY interesting to listen to.

Great Kudos to Richard Dolan for having the courage and integrity to process these personal issues in public. (Who else ever does this?)

The piece in question is the last half hour of Richard's 15 Jan 2018 radio show, starting at 1:29:14.

Here's the show archive:



http://kgraradioarchives.com/shows/richard-dolan-show/?loc=2018#archive


Here's the whole 15 Jan show:



http://kgraradioarchives.com/Shows/richard-dolan-show/2018/RDS011518KGRA%20-%20The%20Richard%20Dolan%20Show%20-%20US%20Gov%20Admission%20UFOs.mp3


And here's the half hour that's the subject of this thread.



http://avalonlibrary.net/The_Richard_Dolan_Show_15_Jan_2018_Getting_Personal.mp3


I guarantee that every man and woman listening to this will have opinions and reactions.

It'd be MOST interesting to hear everyone's views.

Just giving my 2 cents.
Life is a game of manipulation and playing coy.
People participate in the manipulation and then they are to act oblivious to what they have done, but somewhere I think folks understand a certain truth here.
I will try to put into words what we should all feel at some level.

When women dress a certain way, they often state that they do this for themselves, and not for the men of whom's attention dressing a certain way seems to captivate.
But bottom line, women when they dress a certain way "for themselves" and they find themselves the center of men who may take notice, these women are in fact enjoying "attention" and where "attention" goes, so to does "energy".
There may be no conscious acknowledgement of this, but on some level we have to agree this is taking place.
Women seem to realize that there is a competition with each other for this "attention" and "energy" because the rules keep changing to quite extreme levels.
I can't believe this yoga pant craze. Women are now wearing the equivalent of spandex from the 80's which has undergone technological upgrades so as to leave absolutely nothing to the imagination.
For all intents and purposes these women are naked from the waist down, and it's normally women with assets worth displaying that are doing this.
Dolan has his own specialized field, and as such I'm pretty sure he isn't ready to understand his glances are giving calories of energy to the glance recipient.
Who is wronged in this?
Dolan's girlfriend is wronged because this is disrespectful on a few levels, if you can't keep your head off a swivel when in the presence of your mate then you are a low self control individual.
And on another level Dolan is wronged here, because he can't keep his soul's fuel in the lantern, thus depriving his wick of fuel for the fire.
It is my opinion that women currently have more tools then anytime through out all of history to beat down a man's resolve and gain his attention.
This is literally a science that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on.
I'm not the biggest fan of Dave Chappelle but I think he makes a decent point at the 3:44 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZRflz-93JA
5ZRflz-93JA

[Ewan]

https://vimeo.com/106272915

[RunningDeer]

Some exude sensuality in a plain old cotton tee-shirt. Cuz, it radiates from the inside out. Daily self-work is high up on their to-do list. Fixing others while clueless of self, mind games, and power and control over others is so not sexy.


Whitney Houston - Exhale
wrTuV4Szxzo


Everyone falls in love sometime
Sometimes it's wrong, and sometimes it's right
For every win, someone must fail
But there comes a point when
When we exhale (yeah, yeah, say)

Shoop, shoop, shoop
Shoop be doop, shoop, shoop

Sometimes you'll laugh
Sometimes you'll cry
Life never tells us, the when's or why's
When you've got friends, to wish you well
You'll find your point when
You will exhale (yeah, yeah, say)

Shoop, shoop, shoop
Shoop be doop, shoop, shoop

Hearts are often broken
When there are words unspoken
In your soul there's answers to your prayers
If you're searching for a place you know
A familiar face, somewhere to go
You should look inside yourself
You're halfway there

Sometimes you'll laugh
Sometimes you'll cry
Life never tells us, to wish you well
You'll find your point when
You will exhale (yeah, yeah, say)

Shoop, shoop, shoop
Shoop be doop, shoop, shoop

[ErtheVessel]

Thanks for this thread, Bill.

What Richard seems to be talking about is not just whether or not he's being respectful to his mate, but whether or not he is living up to his own ideals as a man of character, and what it felt like for him to admit to himself that he had been lying to himself about who he was pretending to be.

This is a massively important realization for any human being, man or woman, on the road to maturity. I give him a lot of credit for the strength it takes to admit to himself he wasn't the man he thought he was and that he wants to be different. For him to basically say to himself: "You are a complete failure in everything that matters in the world," (a quote from the recording), is very potent self-reflection and probably life changing for him. He must truly love this new woman in his life.

As far as the actual behavior of men ogling women, as a woman, I see a whole spectrum of stuff going on here. What I have to say is probably politically incorrect, but I guess I will say it anyway. I do believe that men are biologically more visual than woman tend to be, at least naturally, before the media interfered and taught women how to ogle men in the same way. I also believe that the media inundation we get in our culture exacerbates this tendency in men until it can become a kind of compulsion or even a social mark of manliness. I also think that there are indeed lots of women who flaunt themselves in a way that is almost retaliatory, kind of like they are hoping men will look at them and them hating the men for doing just that.

I have been ogled (when I was younger) and have also been with a man who ogled other women when I was with him. Quite honestly, being ogled was not terrible, as long as it did not feel potentially violent or dangerous. But being with a man who ogled other women (and I don't mean just a quick glance), signaled to me that this man was not deeply nourished by my particular version of feminine radiance and never would be. And I do believe that men are nourished by feminine radiance, and women by masculine strength. I know this is a pretty old-fashioned notion, but I find it to be true in my own life.

[AutumnW]

I remember feeling an increased level of public scrutiny, when I was younger but thought being stared at was normal for everybody. Now that I am older it isn't as intense, so I am more relaxed in public.

I actually don't know why people get bent out of shape at what people choose to look at. When my husband was alive, I would alert him whenever I saw a woman I thought he would think was beautiful, if he didn't already notice her.

I think you just have to be careful that when you look at someone you don't make them feel self conscious.

[Bill Ryan]

When my husband was alive, I would alert him whenever I saw a woman I thought he would think was beautiful, if he didn't already notice her.

I have to say, I do think that's both mature and truly enlightened. :star: :)

FEAR seems to be at least part of the root of some people's feelings.

[Hervé]

I vaguely recalled the account of a woman's shock when she "aged" past some frontier and realized she had become "invisible"... meaning people around her were not looking at her anymore... men looking through her without noticing her presence and women dismissing her as worthwhile competition... existential crisis per se since she ceased to "exist" in other's eyes... and suffering the conundrum of having become a ghost/discarnate.

So... give back to Caesar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?101529-Richard-Dolan--yes-Richard-Dolan--talks-about-women-sex-and-his-fear-of-failure&p=1204889#post1204889)...

[Flash]

I vaguely recalled the account of a woman's shock when she "aged" past some frontier and realized she had become "invisible"... meaning people around her were not looking at her anymore... men looking through her without noticing her presence and women dismissing her as worthwhile competition... existential crisis per se since she ceased to "exist" in other's eyes... and suffering the conundrum of having become a ghost/discarnate.

So... give back to Caesar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?101529-Richard-Dolan--yes-Richard-Dolan--talks-about-women-sex-and-his-fear-of-failure&p=1204889#post1204889)...

This is in Europe Hervé, it is not as much as obvious in America, meaning that men look much more discreetly in non latin or meditarenean countries, well, in Anglo Saxon countries rather (because in all of Africa, men look).

And women perceptions about being looked at are different as well. For some, being anonymous is just so relaxing. Feeling as a prey (because of lust rather than just look) is not very comfortable to say the least.

Just yesterday, at Mini Flash surprise birthday party, I was talking to a young guy whom I had bitched at previously because he would not walk Mini to the subway in the evening after she would go play music at his place.

He lives in a very very mix neighborhood people from all over the planet. He thought I was a bitch mother, not having met me.

Yesterday I explained to him the perception men from many other countries have of women, all the different hues of perceptions regarding race, religions, height, etc of women.

And how some men think of women as being a sub-race worth not much and that they would not hesitate to rape if given the opportunity.

I ended up telling him to protect whomever the girls are and walk them to the subway. He told me he had no idea about this, had never thought about it.

I had just described to him what it was for a woman to feel like a potential prey. Which is often what happens in cities throughout the world.

And this is utterly uncomfortable. I personally do not miss that feeling not one iota.

I would give up the pleasure of being desired anytime (which is rather pleasant) for not ever feeling again as a hunted prey.

[Hervé]

...

Cough... cough...

When Women Become Invisible

Victoria Janosevic

Publisher: iUniverse
Pages: 189
Price: (paperback) $14.99
ISBN: 9781532018497
Reviewed: July, 2017
Author Website: Visit » (http://bookstore.iuniverse.com/Products/SKU-001090622/When-Women-Become-Invisible.aspx)

From the first page, Victoria Janosevic hooks us with a story about how a 30-something man shrugged off her request to help her lift a heavy bag of concrete from her trunk at Home Depot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Home_Depot). She was in her early 50s then. “Meanwhile, a woman near my age saw the incident and then gazed at me meaningfully,” silently commiserating about the rude behavior. They were, after all, old enough to be his mother and understood how easy it was for him to dismiss them.

About The Author
Victoria Janosevic was born and raised in Germany. At the age of nineteen she met and married an American soldier and immigrated to the United States in 1969. She has two children and loves to travel, visiting her native country about once a year. The author lives in Long Island, New York.

[mgray]

This was not the disclosure I was hoping for from Richard.

It seems to me in this day and age being or exhibiting masculinity qualities almost requires you to put those actions in check for fear of offending someone else.

And when I say seems to me, I really mean its a movement to kill of those primal traits before you become another Harvey Weinstein.

I know there is a middle ground out there, but it appears for some in society to be a lot closer to androgyny than male and female at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

[AutumnW]

[QUOTE=AutumnW;1206001]When my husband was alive, I would alert him whenever I saw a woman I thought he would think was beautiful, if he didn't already notice her.

I have to say, I do think that's both mature and truly enlightened. :star: :)

FEAR seems to be at least part of the root of some people's feelings.[/QUOTE/]

Thank you!

[AutumnW]

This was not the disclosure I was hoping for from Richard.

It seems to me in this day and age being or exhibiting masculinity qualities almost requires you to put those actions in check for fear of offending someone else.

And when I say seems to me, I really mean its a movement to kill of those primal traits before you become another Harvey Weinstein.

I know there is a middle ground out there, but it appears for some in society to be a lot closer to androgyny than male and female at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

This is a weird phenomenon, a throw back to a puritanical age with modern technological trappings. Take the average forty something couple, scrutinizing every move, every micro-expression of their mate and then participating in group self flaggelation if the androgynous standard de jour isn't being met.

Meanwhile, back at home, their teen age boy is watching violent porn on his computer. His girlfriend comes over and they practice to the point she needs reconstructive surgery.

Talk about twisted. Amd apparently, this is the norm and the reconstructive surgery, though not clearly the norm, is becoming much more common place.

People always talk about "waking up" and yet they have no idea what their own kids are doing. Like, as long as they are not doing drugs and drinking and are safely ensconced in their bedrooms with their tech, it's all good??

I would rather my kid was out there drinking, smoking pot, socializing, getting into trouble, taking risks than have them getting their sex ed from violent imagery.

[Daozen]

I also think its best to be open about other guys. Much better than pretending its not happening. I can sit on a bench with a gf and go hey, "what about that guy over there, you think he's cute?" - "what European guys are most handsome?"... I even ask them, "do you want to try a black guy one day?" - pardon my brusquenss, it's OK to say things like that in Asia. Much better to get it out in the open than try and surpress it. A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

That said, it's not a good idea to continually look at other girls if you're walking around with someone you like.

[RunningDeer]

A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll be sure check early on to see if infidelity is a quiet understanding with him.

Growth through intimacy is one reason to enter into a partnership. If one has eyes and heart elsewhere, the partnership is unable to grow in the breadth and depth. Impeccability of character within a partnership is #1. If we’re not enough for one another then it’s time to part ways.

[DNA]

I also think its best to be open about other guys. Much better than pretending its not happening. I can sit on a bench with a gf and go hey, "what about that guy over there, you think he's cute?" - "what European guys are most handsome?"... I even ask them, "do you want to try a black guy one day?" - pardon my brusquenss, it's OK to say things like that in Asia. Much better to get it out in the open than try and surpress it. A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

That said, it's not a good idea to continually look at other girls if you're walking around with someone you like.

I've seen open relationships work, but it was my understanding and impression that both people in the relationship were a type of sociopath.
I wish I had another word to use than sociopath, maybe I'll explain what I mean and maybe a better description can be offered.
There are certain people who function well in society, they are not thieves, they are not violent, and they ussually display an amazing amount of charisma.
I've had two friends through the course of my life that fit this discription, they were amazingly alike.
I decided eventually that they were both sociopaths.
I noticed along the way that these folks were very intelligent and had learned to act appropriately when situations called for sadness, somberness and or anger.
But I also noticed that these theatrics were not genuine, they were a play of sorts, an attempt to provide the appropriate lines.

So anyway, yes I've seen open relationships work for folks whose ability to connect deeply seemed not quite something they could do.
I think empathy kind of goes along with the ability to make energetic connections when in a relationship.

For folks who connect deeply I'm afraid an open relationship just doesn't work.
At least not to my knowledge.

[Daozen]

I also think its best to be open about other guys. Much better than pretending its not happening. I can sit on a bench with a gf and go hey, "what about that guy over there, you think he's cute?" - "what European guys are most handsome?"... I even ask them, "do you want to try a black guy one day?" - pardon my brusquenss, it's OK to say things like that in Asia. Much better to get it out in the open than try and surpress it. A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

That said, it's not a good idea to continually look at other girls if you're walking around with someone you like.

I've seen open relationships work, but it was my understanding and impression that both people in the relationship were a type of sociopath.
I wish I had another word to use than sociopath, maybe I'll explain what I mean and maybe a better description can be offered.
There are certain people who function well in society, they are not thieves, they are not violent, and they ussually display an amazing amount of charisma.
I've had two friends through the course of my life that fit this discription, they were amazingly alike.
I decided eventually that they were both sociopaths.
I noticed along the way that these folks were very intelligent and had learned to act appropriately when situations called for sadness, somberness and or anger.
But I also noticed that these theatrics were not genuine, they were a play of sorts, an attempt to provide the appropriate lines.

So anyway, yes I've seen open relationships work for folks whose ability to connect deeply seemed not quite something they could do.
I think empathy kind of goes along with the ability to make energetic connections when in a relationship.

For folks who connect deeply I'm afraid an open relationship just doesn't work.
At least not to my knowledge.

I have next to no charisma so I'm in the clear. The dominant relationship culture on Earth is faux-monogamy. In a 40 year marriage (or even 2 week fling) you have three choices:

1) Genuine monogamy: Staying with one person.
2) Faux monogamy: Lying to your partner and cheating on the side.
3) Open: Being honest about side relationships.

What percentage of 40 year married couples practice 2, faux monogamy? Upwards of 80%? Cheating is rampant nowadays, especially since the rise of Tinder.

From my point of view, it's the folks lying to their partners who are the true sociopaths, and these people constiutute by far the biggest demographic on Earth.

But to each their own... everyone has to make their own choices.

[Iloveyou]

I vaguely recalled the account of a woman's shock when she "aged" past some frontier and realized she had become "invisible"... meaning people around her were not looking at her anymore... men looking through her without noticing her presence and women dismissing her as worthwhile competition... existential crisis per se since she ceased to "exist" in other's eyes... and suffering the conundrum of having become a ghost/discarnate..

Well, in my experience men still do look (at a woman of 60) . . just it‘s only men between 75 and 90 :bigsmile::bigsmile:

Maybe we should differentiate between Eros and Sexuality. And additionally: for sure there‘s a big difference in how this issues are approached in Europe or the US. I‘ve the impression that Europeans are a bit more playful and relaxed about it which does not hinder them from having deeply committed, truthful and longlasting relationships, of course (simply generally speaking:o). But that‘s just an impression.

[Hervé]

As a matter of "synchronicity" with the Caesar parable (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?101529-Richard-Dolan--yes-Richard-Dolan--talks-about-women-sex-and-his-fear-of-failure&p=1204889#post1204889), here is a humorous piece on that subject: Cohabiting with a Monkey (https://www.henrymakow.com/cohabiting_with_a_monkey.html)

[Limor Wolf]

My senses tell me to share what was once written to me by one I respect and who's name I keep privet.

In the context of self-realization


" ... we can't hold onto the shadows or the pretend 'good person' ephisod. This world is largely comprised of creating alters of 'good' people that are the overlay.........the goodness is a lie for the most part and everyone is hiding their origins, how they have and are being manipulated and what they are being used for truly. How many are truly real? How many are truly willing to live in the truth of their darkness and light? "

With love and many blessings ~

Limor

[Mike]

I also think its best to be open about other guys. Much better than pretending its not happening. I can sit on a bench with a gf and go hey, "what about that guy over there, you think he's cute?" - "what European guys are most handsome?"... I even ask them, "do you want to try a black guy one day?" - pardon my brusquenss, it's OK to say things like that in Asia. Much better to get it out in the open than try and surpress it. A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

That said, it's not a good idea to continually look at other girls if you're walking around with someone you like.


I always value honesty. Honesty with oneself is probably the best way to start. Not always easy.

For the most part, I've always viewed romantic relationships as closed, simply because once they're open the very thing that established them in the first place - exclusivity - is gone. So the term "open relationship" is kinda oxymoronic to me. Without boundaries, without structure, it all becomes flimsy and ambiguous, and meanings and emotions get blurred to the point of near constant dissonance. I speak from experience.

Open relationships are sometimes regarded as more realistic or mature by what we might call "progressives". Maybe they are. Logically I can make that argument; but the heart doesn't respond to logic. I've never once seen an open relationship that lasted. The typical human emotional body just doesn't have the capacity to deal with it properly, what with jealousy and insecurity and so forth. Love triangles are too messy...and often cause more damage than anything else.

Many years ago I dated a bisexual woman. Eventually she wanted to "introduce other women into the relationship", which of course is a cute euphemism for "lets have sex with other people!". Every man's dream right? 2 women? Against my better judgement I said "yes". And at first we all walked around with this lofty sense of maturity and open mindedness...but within a week the whole thing crumbled LOL. Jealousies, insecurities, feelings of being left out, worries about favoritism, etc etc etc. You name it. I'd never do it again.

[Daozen]

I also think its best to be open about other guys. Much better than pretending its not happening. I can sit on a bench with a gf and go hey, "what about that guy over there, you think he's cute?" - "what European guys are most handsome?"... I even ask them, "do you want to try a black guy one day?" - pardon my brusquenss, it's OK to say things like that in Asia. Much better to get it out in the open than try and surpress it. A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

That said, it's not a good idea to continually look at other girls if you're walking around with someone you like.


I always value honesty. Honesty with oneself is probably the best way to start. Not always easy.

For the most part, I've always viewed romantic relationships as closed, simply because once they're open the very thing that established them in the first place - exclusivity - is gone. So the term "open relationship" is kinda oxymoronic to me. Without boundaries, without structure, it all becomes flimsy and ambiguous, and meanings and emotions get blurred to the point of near constant dissonance. I speak from experience.

Open relationships are sometimes regarded as more realistic or mature by what we might call "progressives". Maybe they are. Logically I can make that argument; but the heart doesn't respond to logic. I've never once seen an open relationship that lasted. The typical human emotional body just doesn't have the capacity to deal with it properly, what with jealousy and insecurity and so forth. Love triangles are too messy...and often cause more damage than anything else.

Many years ago I dated a bisexual woman. Eventually she wanted to "introduce other women into the relationship", which of course is a cute euphemism for "lets have sex with other people!". Every man's dream right? 2 women? Against my better judgement I said "yes". And at first we all walked around with this lofty sense of maturity and open mindedness...but within a week the whole thing crumbled LOL. Jealousies, insecurities, feelings of being left out, worries about favoritism, etc etc etc. You name it. I'd never do it again.

You're right that polyamory can be tough on the soul. A first I felt like a ship that was blown in 4 different directions. But I remember that monogamy can be equally trying: the paranoia, the insecurity, the sense that you might be committing to someone who doesn't reciprocate your honesty. I just got out of a 3-5 year fully monogamous relationship. I am not doing that again for a while. I need some breathing space. It is my right to walk free on the Earth and live life as I wish, so long as I am honest and respectful towards others. Statstically, most guys that promise monogamy to a girl will be lying. Modern women know this, so they might as well sleep with an honest man. It's their choice. I don't force anyone. I tell them from the outset I can't commit right now, cos I just lewft a heavy relationship, then they make their free will choice.

You may be right that true-monogamy is morally superior to open relationships... but you, and the other pro-monogamists are ignoring the polka-dot Elephant that lurks large in the room: The huge demographic that pledges monogamy and then goes and cheats on their partner, especially in countries that are famous for insincerity. I shall mention no names here. Faux-monogamists constitute up to 80% of the adult population. I have not seen any of you factor that into your posts. It's not something that can be hand waved away. Some of my realtionships have lasted 3-4 months, since the time I started dating again... and show no signs of fading out.

I see myself as neither lofty nor progressive... more a six foot Tyrion Lanister... Or Khal Drogo meets Forest Gump, if you will.

Now let us 'drill down into the details' as Kerry Cassidy is so wont to say. The average head count of an American woman is 60 men, by the time she's 25. In LA, anecdotally, its closer to a few hundred men. STDs are rampant among American youth... I would not like to date in a climate like that. Looks to me like all those people are promising to stay faithful then breaking their word. Tinder has facilitated cheating like never before.

Now you see why most people in open relationships keep their mouths shut about it. The mere mention of the lifestyle gets you an immediate summons before an ad hoc panel of ethical experts.

My life is not perfect but I'm happier than I was... I worked hard for the position Im in. Perhaps God, in his/her infinite mercy, will grant me a few summers of wine and Dionysian happiness these next few years.

[Dennis Leahy]

A surprising amount of couples have a quiet understanding that its OK for *both* of them to go out with someone else once in a while. They just don't advertize their openness, as it is still "frowned upon." Better to be honest than lie to the one you love.

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll be sure check early on to see if infidelity is a quiet understanding with him.

Growth through intimacy is one reason to enter into a partnership. If one has eyes and heart elsewhere, the partnership is unable to grow in the breadth and depth. Impeccability of character within a partnership is #1. If we’re not enough for one another then it’s time to part ways.
I agree with Paula/RunningDeer. Cheating is the end of the relationship - even if the couple stays together, the relationship they had is over. Cheating is an overt loss of personal integrity, and to me, integrity is the glue that binds relationships. Paula nailed it with, "Impeccability of character within a partnership. "

Many decades ago, when I was in my 20's, I met a guy who said it was sort of a hobby of his to take away other guys' girlfriends. He was also, in a way, giving me "fair warning" that he was targeting my then girlfriend. Without hesitation, I said, "If you can take away my girlfriend, please take away my girlfriend. If she'd rather be with you, you will have done me a service." What kind of a relationship is so weak that either partner can be swept away by the next hot girl or hot guy that comes along?

That's not exactly what Richard was saying. He is addressing a 'roving eye' and its hurtful and long-term, cumulative consequences on his relationship, not actions elevated to an actual sexual affair and the quick destruction of a relationship.

As to the concept of the "roving eye" that Richard is describing, that word "roving" carries a connotation of underhandedness, as if the person behind the roving eye is "shopping" for someone better. Intent is key. The Buddha wordlessly presented a lotus blossom and the faster-than-analysis, instantaneous smile of the monk had to be an ordinary reaction to the beauty before him. When either partner in a relationship sees (what they perceive as) beauty, they should be able to react in an ordinary way to the beauty without blending in sexual desire. The difference between looking - and recognizing beauty, and leering - and translating beauty into sexual desire, is the crux. Even though this has never been an issue for me, kudos to Richard Dolan for this talk and his public commitment to integrity on this issue.

[Daozen]

How can you cheat if you have never commited? There's a koan for you. I don't lie to my partners. Most people do.

So now we are all aware that many Avalonians posting in this thread are citizens of the highest ethical integrity and moral fiber. Butter would not melt in their mouths. Yet somehow, I feel the playing field is unfair. I have mentioned some of my beliefs and history. Yet we know nothing of others that post in this thread.

I would like to ask the following of DNA, Running Deer, Mike, and even Denis Leahy. I shall force no answers, as your private lives are you own business, but I am wondering the following...

1) Have you ever cheated on someone?
2) When was the last time you cheated on someone?
3) Have you cheated on anyone in the last two years?

I shall take your responses as the whole unvarnished truth, before Avalon, God and the Universe.

If you guys are so stick in the mud judgemental that you cannot listen to the other side, it is yourselves that will lose out in the long run. If I meet a Marine or a soldier at a party, I sit and listen to their stories... I don't lecture them about the evils of war. If I am to stand trial, than so must ye all.

Oh Daozen you got me all wrong I didn't mean to come across like that... it's just...

Yeah, I know...

Until we get answers to those fair questions, we are writing in an informational vacuum. A silence will speak volumes, so will an evasive wall of type.

In the end, only God will judge me. Or maybe I will judge myself. Perhaps I will judge God. I have a lot to say to that pr**k when I get to heaven.

[Mike]

Hey Daozen, yep, lots of good stuff there. Hear you.

I'm sort of fleshing out my ideas as I go along here. I don't know if I would call myself "pro monogamy", because that kind of suggests I'm rigorously for one thing and rigorously against something else. No approach is perfect. I mean, there's also just casual dating, which is just fine by me.

Being with more than 1 person *in a serious way* is what I was talking about. That always ends badly. I'm totally cool with dating multiple people at once. That seems only natural. I'm single, and I enjoy that freedom to do what I want when I want and with whomever I choose. It's a great feeling. Liberating.

And I hope you don't think I was accusing you of being lofty; I wasn't! It was me who was the lofty one in that relationship I described. I wasn't implying anything towards you.

Your sex count stats do seem a little dubious though;) The average woman has slept with 60 guys by the time she's 25? Whew. Maybe I'm just old and out of the loop, but that seems awfully high. Where are you getting that number from? And it would seem a more convincing argument against open relationships than monagamy, despite the cheating going on in many monogamous relationships.

It's undeniably true that many so called monogamous couples are cheating on each other and lying about it. I never claimed moral high ground in my preference for monogamy, I just said it seems to work better for me than an open relationship, and gave some reasons why. But everyone lies. Even people in open relationships. They may say they're seeing 2 other people but in reality it's 5. They may say they're having protective sex with their partners and they may not be. You'll never protect yourself wholly from the lies and deceit of the average human being, regardless of your preferences. The potential to be hurt and betrayed is still there.

[Daozen]

Hey Daozen, yep, lots of good stuff there. Hear you.

I'm sort of fleshing out my ideas as I go along here. I don't know if I would call myself "pro monogamy", because that kind of suggests I'm rigorously for one thing and rigorously against something else. No approach is perfect. I mean, there's also just casual dating, which is just fine by me.

Being with more than 1 person *in a serious way* is what I was talking about. That always ends badly. I'm totally cool with dating multiple people at once. That seems only natural. I'm single, and I enjoy that freedom to do what I want when I want and with whomever I choose. It's a great feeling. Liberating.

And I hope you don't think I was accusing you of being lofty; I wasn't! It was me who was the lofty one in that relationship I described. I wasn't implying anything towards you.

Your sex count stats do seem a little dubious though;) The average woman has slept with 60 guys by the time she's 25? Whew. Maybe I'm just old and out of the loop, but that seems awfully high. Where are you getting that number from? And it would seem a more convincing argument against open relationships than monagamy, despite the cheating going on in many monogamous relationships.

It's undeniably true that many so called monogamous couples are cheating on each other and lying about it. I never claimed moral high ground in my preference for monogamy, I just said it seems to work better for me than an open relationship, and gave some reasons why. But everyone lies. Even people in open relationships. They may say they're seeing 2 other people but in reality it's 5. They may say they're having protective sex with their partners and they may not be. You'll never protect yourself wholly from the lies and deceit of the average human being, regardless of your preferences. The potential to be hurt and betrayed is still there.

You're right Mike. It's not easy.

Regarding the 60 head count thing. If a woman dates from 18 to 25, and sleeps with only one guy a month, that's 84 guys. Sleep well!

It's true that many people in open relationships lie, about the subjects you're talking about.

I don't understand what a 'serious relationship' means. I give these women everything I have for the duration I'm with them. Healing, music, fun, whatever... If I get married I will have to think hard. If I have a kid I'll prolly stop. But not yet.

So yes, you're going to get hurt in both directions. I'd prefer to stack up some memories for my rocking chair age 90...

[Dennis Leahy]

How can you cheat if you have never commited? There's a koan for you. ...

I would like to ask the following of DNA, Running Deer, Mike, and even Denis Leahy. I shall force no answers, as your private lives are you own business, but I am wondering the following...

1) Have you ever cheated on someone?
2) When was the last time you cheated on someone?
3) Have you cheated on anyone in the last two years?

I shall take your responses as the whole unvarnished truth, before Avalon, God and the Universe.

If you guys are so stick in the mud judgemental that you cannot listen to the other side, it is yourselves that will lose out in the long run. If I meet a Marine or a soldier at a party, I sit and listen to their stories... I don't lecture them about the evils of war. If I am to stand trial, than so must ye all.

Oh Daozen you got me all wrong I didn't mean to come across like that... it's just...

Yeah, I know...

Until we get answers to those fair questions, we are writing in an informational vacuum. A silence will speak volumes, so will an evasive wall of type.

In the end, only God will judge me. Or maybe I will judge myself. Perhaps I will judge God. I have a lot to say to that pr**k when I get to heaven.

Wow, you found a personal attack on you in my post? I didn't aim anything at you, and wasn't judging you. You're projecting.

My remarks (and Dolan's too) are about people in a committed relationship. You're not. You're single. Nothing Dolan sait or that I said applied to single, uncommitted people, and I have no idea why you would conflate a disagreement with the concept of 'infidelity is ok if you're honest' with an attack on you. RunningDeer disagreed with a concept, and I agreed with RunningDeer.

We're all different. I happen to have never had a problem with cheating or even wanting to cheat. There are many other things I struggle with; that just isn't one of them. Is it going to help your state of mind if I answer your 3 highly invasive questions with the response that since my first awkward teenage romance 50 years ago, I have never cheated or ever even wanted to? Does that make you feel better, or worse? Calm down and go back and read what you wrote, and you'll see that you are the one judging yourself against standards I (and others) hold for ourselves.

[Mike]

Hey Daozen, I think most people, ultimately, end of the day, desire a deep, intimate connection. From my personal experience and most of those I've observed , it seems that a monogamous relationship offers more potential for that to occur. An open relationship may provide that as well, but I think the potential for it is lower. But most relationships ultimatley fail, regardless of the labels we give them, right?:) it's an emotional risk no matter how we approach it...and I guess that's what I've been trying to say.

And btw, you express yourself in a very cool, intelligent way. Plenty of charisma there. Don't sell yourself short dude.

[Daozen]

I never saw it as an 'attack' Dennis, it's just you guys come off a little high handed. Phrases like "impeccability of character" are a little overblowm, from where I sit. Those questions are simple enough, and they provide some background context. If you don't want to answer them, its your call, like I said in the post. If you've never cheated on anyone, good on you, that's awesome, but you're in a minority.

Thanks Mike... I guess if you remember all relationships are doomed to failure, none of it matters too much.

[RunningDeer]

If you guys are so stick in the mud judgemental that you cannot listen to the other side,,,
No, not a stick in the mud judgmental. I’m a realist. I’m coming up on 68 years old and have lived a lot of life … five-six lifetimes worth and counting.

My reality is simple:

be true to inner self
respect
self-responsibility
self-empowerment
self-freedom
common sense
no trespassing

I’d rather spend the rest of my life alone than to share it with someone that’s driven by egoic self-importance. I’ve been with those types. Those were lonely, lonely times.

[Daozen]

Thank you RunningDeer, no further questions. You may step down.

I believe my work in this thread is done.

Truth be told, I feel the black sands of time dripping from the obsidian hourglass as age draws its inexorable lines upon my once-boyish countenance. It is only an Epiphone SG and pictures of Gert Louw that will get me through my 40s. I have only a few short years left to live the dusk of my youth. Now let us pray that it is a glorious sunset...

Thank you all for your observations, I shall ruminate on them later.

Goodnight and God Bless!

[Dennis Leahy]

I never saw it as an 'attack' Dennis, it's just you guys come off a little high handed. Phrases like "impeccability of character" are a little overblowm, from where I sit. Those questions are simple enough, and they provide some background context. If you don't want to answer them, its your call, like I said in the post. If you've never cheated on anyone, good on you, that's awesome, but you're in a minority.
...Ha! Integrity within a relationship isn't "high-handed", it is par for the course among those in committed relationships. Statistics showing a high percentage of cheating tells me that a low percentage of these "relationships" are actually committed relationships. Those who have never had a committed relationship are the least likely to know what it takes to establish and maintain a committed relationship, and lacking in relationship experience to be able to compare the morals of dating with the morals of a committed relationship.


"... Those questions are simple enough, .... If you don't want to answer them, its your call, ..."
Really? So, this sentence ("since my first awkward teenage romance 50 years ago, I have never cheated or ever even wanted to") didn't answer your questions?
1) Have you ever cheated on someone? No
2) When was the last time you cheated on someone? Never
3) Have you cheated on anyone in the last two years? No
Is that better?

Your issue is whether you piss off the girl(s) you are having sex with by honestly telling them about the other girl(s) you are also having sex with, right? That has nothing whatsoever to do with a committed relationship. From what you're saying, you are not looking for and don't want a committed relationship. So, why compare yourself with (and judge your morals against) those in committed relationships?

[AutumnW]

No two 'unions' are entirely alike. And age plays a huge role. Men are in their sexual prime at the same time women are losing interest. And this is an established fact.

What ends up happening in many many many marriages is the woman STILL wants exclusivity even though she doesn't want to have sex, link ever. These women neuter their partners in increments, stripping them of their masculinity and vitality, in this way. And they don't care because they're not missing anything. Men put up with this out of a sense of duty, fear, etc...

In this case being exclusive within monogamy is a constraint, a trap and resentment builds. Men feel controlled and women get backlash from that.


As people age and if this is an issue, they MUST talk about it very ojectively and develop work a rounds.

[Daozen]

[QUOTE=Daozen;1206416]"... Those questions are simple enough, .... If you don't want to answer them, its your call, ..."
Really? So, this sentence ("since my first awkward teenage romance 50 years ago, I have never cheated or ever even wanted to") didn't answer your questions?
1) Have you ever cheated on someone? No
2) When was the last time you cheated on someone? Never
3) Have you cheated on anyone in the last two years? No
Is that better?

Your issue is whether you piss off the girl(s) you are having sex with by honestly telling them about the other girl(s) you are also having sex with, right? That has nothing whatsoever to do with a committed relationship. From what you're saying, you are not looking for and don't want a committed relationship. So, why compare yourself with (and judge your morals against) those in committed relationships?

Dennis,

My first reply to you was an acknowledgement that yes, you answered my questions in your first response to me.

Cordially,

Daozen

*

AutumnW, forgive me, what age do you consider a man's prime?

[KiwiElf]

People who cheat on their partners often cheat elsewhere, too... just an observation... ;)

[AutumnW]

Daozen,

It depends on what kind of prime we are talking here. Men, generally speaking, are sexual beings long past the reproductive age of women. Again, and this is a general statement, women retain sensuality and often become more sensual with age and strangely, more 'romantic.'

¤=[Post Update]=¤


People who cheat on their partners often cheat elsewhere, too... just an observation... ;)

I have 'cheated' out of sheer sadness and desperation in the distant past. But I consider myself as honest or more than most.

[Daozen]

Daozen,

It depends on what kind of prime we are talking here. Men, generally speaking, are sexual beings long past the reproductive age of women. Again, and this is a general statement, women retain sensuality and often become more sensual with age and strangely, more 'romantic.'

I have noticed that there are several primes in the life of a human. I thought age 25 was a peak but in retrospect I was just a pogo-sticking child. And yes, it is important to understand sensuality as you get older. Testosterone gives way to Oxytocin.

[RunningDeer]

you guys come off a little high handed. Phrases like "impeccability of character" are a little overblowm, from where I sit.
Impeccability is my playground …

Disclaimer: There’s lots of trial and error with this impeccability thang. AND I’m a work in progress.

.............................http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/work-in-progress.gif

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Empower/impeccable.jpg

[DNA]

How can you cheat if you have never commited? There's a koan for you. I don't lie to my partners. Most people do.

Commitment isn't a word, it's an unspoken energetic promise. It is a building of energetic cords that cause the energy in each sphere of being to be shared with one another. Sex opens one up for this and bonds can be made regardless of the words coming out of one's mouth.
Check out this clip from the Movie "Vanilla Sky". Especially at the 1:36 mark. The whole clip is short and should be watched but it's the 1:36 mark that hit me like a sledge hammer to the stomach when I watched this movie for the first time.
I agree very much with what Cameron Diaz is sayinig here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xohWvO9i4c
7xohWvO9i4c

If this is not possible for you it may be that you are simply a person who does not form bonds deeply. There is no shame in this.



1) Have you ever cheated on someone?
I cheated on a girlfriend I loved very much when I was 26.

2) When was the last time you cheated on someone?
Almost 20 years ago.

3) Have you cheated on anyone in the last two years? No


I shall take your responses as the whole unvarnished truth, before Avalon, God and the Universe.

If you guys are so stick in the mud judgemental that you cannot listen to the other side, it is yourselves that will lose out in the long run. If I meet a Marine or a soldier at a party, I sit and listen to their stories... I don't lecture them about the evils of war. If I am to stand trial, than so must ye all.
Dude I don't think anyone is attacking you.
People are sharing their truth, which is not in agreement with your truth.
No big deal.



Yeah, I know...
Until we get answers to those fair questions, we are writing in an informational vacuum. A silence will speak volumes, so will an evasive wall of type.
In the end, only God will judge me. Or maybe I will judge myself. Perhaps I will judge God. I have a lot to say to that pr**k when I get to heaven.

Okay, I've answered your questions.
They were not that big a deal.

I've got one for you.
Have you ever been with someone in a relationship where they fell in love and were jealous regardless of the intellectual jargon shared in the beginning?

Regardless of the words spoken, our bodies can make promises that are in their own language. It is my opinion that you can intellectualize the situation and feel enlightened in doing so, but these matters of the heart have differing vehicles for thought and do not always respect the intended restraints laid upon them by your brain.

[Daozen]

Thanks for your answers DNA. If you're a true monogamist, that's a good thing. Sure, I know the brain and the heart are different beasts. I do not think anyone was attacking me, perhaps I over-reacted, but I think labelling a whole group of people as sociopaths is a broad sweeping statement, which amounts to not much more than high-brow name calling. However, this is not a point I wish to belabour.

A quick answer: I view an open relationship as a way of not imprisoning someone. If someone comes a long that is more suited for Her than me, I should let her go. That, in my view, is true love, and as far removed from negativity as one can get.

Be well all, and enjoy your journeys.

[DNA]

Thanks for your answers DNA. If you're a true monogamist, that's a good thing.
My wife is my best friend, and she was my best friend long before she became my wife.
Sex isn't the most important thing in a relationship.
Freindship, companionship, validation and accepting one another regardless.
Validation is something I don't often hear but it is something tremendously important.
Someone who actually cares about what has gone on in your day.
Someone who actually wants to hear what happened at work.
Someone who lets you repeat a twenty year old story they have heard fifty times or more.

I think you are making too much of the sex thing.
You act kind of magnanimous about stating that you would encourage your partner to sleep with someone they are attracted to so they can have the perfect mate, but that is such a small part of the relationship.
Sex is overly emphasized in our culture on almost every level.


A quick answer: I view an open relationship as a way of not imprisoning someone.
I don't know many women who need to sleep with a new person every month.
This is not what most women want or need. This is a false stereo type being perpetuated by Hollywood and the like in my opinion.

Is this your one size fits all way of handling questions in an intimate relationship?
Has no one told you they would wish to be with just you and only you?
If they have do you always reply with the open relationship answer?
If so I would think it is not someone else you are concerned with being imprisoned, but yourself you are concerned with being imprisoned.
I'm not buying the open relationship thing as some kind of philanthropic noble endeavor on your part.
You are doing this because this is what you want.


Also,,,,
You still didn't answer my question. :wink:

[Flash]

Isn’t the belief into being inprisoned by another human who has some hearth a belief into victimhood? Those are just perceptions that plays right into the powe struggles we inflict on each other. This is not the truth, at lest in my iews.

I Never felt ghat when someone lets me go telling me he/she respect my wishes, that it was out of love, except from some parents to their child. I mostly felt it was to protect themselves first and foremost from situations or from emotions or evolution they had a difficult time to handle for whatever reason. Lets be real.


Thanks for your answers DNA. If you're a true monogamist, that's a good thing. Sure, I know the brain and the heart are different beasts. I do not think anyone was attacking me, perhaps I over-reacted, but I think labelling a whole group of people as sociopaths is a broad sweeping statement, which amounts to not much more than high-brow name calling. However, this is not a point I wish to belabour.

A quick answer: I view an open relationship as a way of not imprisoning someone. If someone comes a long that is more suited for Her than me, I should let her go. That, in my view, is true love, and as far removed from negativity as one can get.

Be well all, and enjoy your journeys.