Dane Tops: the Camelot Church of Scientology whistleblower

[ashva]

Hi everyone,


Like many, I was fascinated and intrigued by the PC Dane Tops interview. However, I have long been fascinated by the lack of broader interest in him and his claims, and the lack of any follow up research. I was wondering has anyone heard of anything further from this marvellously, enigmantic figure. For instance, does anyone have any ideas as to his actual identity?

[Bill Ryan]

A link to the (very interesting!) Camelot interview:


http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html


does anyone have any ideas as to his actual identity?

Nope. Kerry Cassidy and I were the third and fourth people ever to know. I doubt if anyone else does, to this day. If his ID were revealed, his life would certainly be in danger.

[Bob]

That interview offers some insights to me where I was questioning if Hubbard or some ghost writer produced "fair game" policy.. (or why the fellow's life would be targeted)

If you have a moment Chris Shelton describes some of the "hit" policy.. early stuff Hubbard was on, although some changes happened enough for me to say I want nothing to do with that org...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqalTJWGYj4

Chris was 27 years I think I heard him say involved, very aware of the inner workings, and he has many more video insights about what goes on and what went on..

Tony Ortega also provides insights and briefs from Ex-Scio's here: https://tonyortega.org/up-the-bridge-our-step-by-step-series-on-scientologys-bridge-to-total-freedom/

Take a look here also for some 'history' - https://tonyortega.org/scientology-mythbusting-with-historian-jon-atack/ Jon Atack

[Bill Ryan]

him and his claims

Well, his claims about the Church of Scientology were certainly acted on, and soon after were fully confirmed. His letter ended up going viral, being copied and re-copied and then re-mailed round the world to reach many thousands of people.

His alert was to a significant degree responsible for thousands of people leaving the Church in a grand exodus in the early 1980s (mainly 1982-3).

[ashva]

Bill, Bob,


Thanks for chiming in here.

I have read, and re-read that interview many times. I find it extraordinaily interesting on a number of levels, and it seems that this individual has an enormous amount to contribute to our collective spiritual development. The level of insight and knowledge is extraordinary.

Bill, can you tell us if that interview is a transcript? And to add some colour, could you describe 'Dane Tops', even briefly?

Thanks for your attention here!

[Bill Ryan]

Bill, can you tell us if that interview is a transcript?

Yes... it's very accurate. I transcribed it myself, and took a lot of care doing it. There was nothing left out.


And to add some colour, could you describe 'Dane Tops', even briefly?

Well, all I can say is that he's highly experienced and trained, and extremely spiritually perceptive and aware. A very big soul, of course, a remarkable person.

His letter was getting on for 40 years ago now, so as you might imagine he's not quite a teenager any more. :) But he's still utterly young in heart, and looks and acts far younger than his years, which is pretty interesting. He's never been an Avalon member, but he does follow things here, and also everywhere else in the alt media.

[ashva]

Hi Bill

Do you think you will ever do a follow interview? Did DT express an interest in further media exposure?


Thanks!


Ashva

[Valerie Villars]

Okay. I thought I had read every transcript on Project Camelot before finding my way to Avalon, but I either missed this one or forgot it in my marathon searching. So much of what this guy is saying is exactly the kind of remembering I had when my dna woke up. It's incredible. Every time I think I have heard it all, I find some new, mind blowing stuff.

I'm about a third of the way in and can't recommend this transcript enough. It may not be best to read it if you are fearful though. It may be too much. On the other hand, it's best to know the truth. Every new step has to be assimilated and it can get intense but the truth is we have the power to overcome anyone and anything they throw at us. Live in courage.

"But the reason I think there was ET intervention on me is that I didn’t eat any food or drink any water for three months, and I didn’t sleep for three months." This happened to me too. I was deliberately woken up.

"But that level of ability I had for three months: not eating, sleeping or drinking water... the abilities only stopped short in that I could not stop breathing. I still had to breathe, but all other body functions I didn’t need anymore. I never slept, and I was more wide awake than I’d ever been wide awake. During that whole three months I experienced a continual amassing of knowledge. I experienced being many places in many dimensions. I learned much about our past, and there was a full transcendence of time. I was in simultaneity without break for three months."

Yes, yes and yes.

And here. It exactly mirrors my own experience. "D: Actually I was alone when all this happened - not with the others directly. I just didn’t see them and was not in a state to be able to explain it to them.

You know, we’re hearing about in Camelot how we are hybrids and how we were genetically engineered. But it’s more than genetic engineering, its also spiritual engineering, and very precise entity engineering. And so, in that three months I was shown, and I never knew quite how it was I was shown, but I thought recently it must have been that I was contacted, because when I started to get this information there were many, many, many beings talking to me that came to me in the room and I thought: Why me?

Because I didn’t see that I had done very much to deserve all that understanding and knowledge. But for whatever reason, I downloaded this extraordinary information and then I just understood a concept of stepping stones that were an extension of what Hubbard did."

[Valerie Villars]

"There are things about entities that I haven’t seen fully addressed. I believe there’s a blueprint for human beings that was installed in us that whatever life form you’re in, whether you’re a human being or a different kind of life form, it has a certain structure

And that structure is installed, and that structure means that if you go have a life as one of these kind of life forms then there are secrets of that life form, there is a spiritual structure of each life form, not ONLY the physical DNA structure, and you can go much further as a spiritual being when you become intimate with these spiritual installed structures of each life form." From the interview with Dane Tops.

What immediately popped into my mind regarding this bit of wisdom, is that it is encapsulated in T.H. White's book "The Once and Future King". Merlin instructs Arthur to explore various life forms by becoming them. The meaning of this escaped me in my previous reading of the book, but I see clearly now this is what the book is about.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi Bill

Do you think you will ever do a follow interview? Did DT express an interest in further media exposure?

Thanks!

Ashva

That's another very good question. Yes, I still know how to contact him, and in theory that'd be very possible. I'm not too sure if there's anything much left to say, though! We really did cover everything we could all think of between us.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Very good interview, and certainly worth reading - or listening to. I say listening to, because here's a tip. [slightly off-topic, but some may find this useful, as I did]

Due to time constraints and general busyness away from computer screen, I could only read this in snatches (it's a long transcript). Then I remembered, this excellent tool.

https://www.naturalreaders.com/online/

Copy/paste the text into the main window, and click play. It will read the entire transcript back to you, in a choice of pretty realistic voices and at various speeds. May even work on phones.

[Flash]

Very good interview, and certainly worth reading - or listening to. I say listening to, because here's a tip. [slightly off-topic, but some may find this useful, as I did]

Due to time constraints and general busyness away from computer screen, I could only read this in snatches (it's a long transcript). Then I remembered, this excellent tool.



https://www.naturalreaders.com/online/

Copy/paste the text into the main window, and click play. It will read the entire transcript back to you, in a choice of pretty realistic voices and at various speeds. May even work on phones.

It works on my iphone. Many thanks

[ramus]

I lost a good friend or so I thought, because I sent him the DANE TOPS interview done on PC right after it was published. I was not aware of the rule in the church that one could not have contact with anyone that criticizes the church, my bad. My friend is the Head of Scientology in Hawaii, to this day he won't respond to me, that was Sept. 2009.

[Cardillac]

I can't remember the source I read yrs. ago but Scientology began as a very benevolent movement until it became infiltrated by negative elements- dove-tails perfectly with all the thus provided postings on this website-

but about 17 yrs. ago I was in a certain area of Basel, Switzerland early in the evening (I remember this vividly) and there had to have been at least 40-50 young people between the approx. ages of 18-25 freely handing out copies of "Dianetics" but they all appeared to be glassy-eyed/somehow robots- I steered clear of them-

Larry

[Bill Ryan]

I can't remember the source I read yrs. ago but Scientology began as a very benevolent movement until it became infiltrated by negative elements- dove-tails perfectly with all the thus provided postings on this website-



Yes, this is very well-known and well-documented. There were some problems in the 70s, but the sea change really all occurred between 1981 and 1985 when there was a management coup in which Hubbard was sidelined — and maybe worse.

At that point, a totalitarian new regime took over, during which many of the techniques and processes developed by Hubbard, which really worked, were subtly altered so as to be damaging.

What Dane Tops did in his famous letter was alert everyone to what was really happening. As a result of that, thousands of very able and ethical people all left to form various 'lifeboat' movements all over the world, some big and some small, and some of which are thriving to this day, which carefully and faithfully preserved (and built on) Hubbard's original methods.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

It works on my iphone. Many thanks

Sorry Flash, slight snag. Half way through, the voice changed/downgraded. I didn't realise you can only use the premium hi-quality voices for a limited time. You must pay to continue. The default voice of the free version is not so good. Sorry again!

[Alanantic]

Leah Remini's TV exposé is fantastic if you haven't seen it yet.

https://upi.com/Entertainment_News/TV/2018/03/15/Leah-Remini-Scientology-and-the-Aftermath-renewed/7621521111838

[astridmari]

This was truly an interesting story. As always all good things gets tampered with. But always a relief to know that at least there was a good intention from the start to get the truth out.

I wonder if it is possible to find the Hubbard's original methods, techniques and processes anywhere? If there is anything written down? Is it any use reading the first book "Dianetics" or has it been manipulated also?

[Satori]

I have not finished reading the transcript of DT's interview yet. But, I was struck by DT's statement--twice made to the point I have read so far--that Hubbard did not know about the US government investigating ETs and the government's ET agenda. Consequently, I gather, Hubbard cooperated with the government for a period of time until, I guess, he came to know this.

How does Hubbard not knowing of the government's ET agenda and ulterior motives square with what is being claimed in the interview about Hubbard's experiences, abilities, techniques, studies, training, remote viewing, and what he was working on re "knowing" etc...?

In short, if he was able to "know" how did he not know the government's agenda? I realize no one is perfect, including Hubbard, but this strikes me as a contradiction.

[TomKat]

I was never impressed by Dane Tops. He just repeated all the rumors most Scientologists heard in the 70s, and mixed in a lot of speculation regarding the govt. The supposed abilities that Hubbard engineered in people were all one-off events of the type any seeker might have in any spiritual practice such as yoga or meditation. Sure, there were some talented psychics like Pat Price and Ingo Swann. But Ingo had his abilities since age 4 and Pat Price spontaneously went out of body on the beginning course of Scientology and developed from there on his own. My advice, take everything Dane Tops says with a grain of salt. And, no, he is not any kind of whistleblower.

[Bill Ryan]

I was never impressed by Dane Tops. He just repeated all the rumors most Scientologists heard in the 70s, and mixed in a lot of speculation regarding the govt. The supposed abilities that Hubbard engineered in people were all one-off events of the type any seeker might have in any spiritual practice such as yoga or meditation. Sure, there were some talented psychics like Pat Price and Ingo Swann. But Ingo had his abilities since age 4 and Pat Price spontaneously went out of body on the beginning course of Scientology and developed from there on his own. My advice, take everything Dane Tops says with a grain of salt. And, no, he is not any kind of whistleblower.

Yes, you're quite right about Pat Price and Ingo Swann, of course. And many others, too! Scientology processing — and (you're right again) quite a few other personal development techniques — will definitely enhance or help manifest latent or potential abilities that the person brings with them, but not create them out of thin air from nothing. :)

Like you, I'm sure, I've met many people who've never had a scientology session in their lives who have exceptional abilities, more so than some who've been in scientology for 20 years. It all depends on what the spiritual being brings with them, and what their past-lives history is.

But of course, as you know also, the party-trick abilities aren't the point. Any Buddhist Lama, or Hindu Sadhu, will tell you that. :) It's merely about awareness and perception, and completing unfinished business from the deep past. All we can do is clean up what's there (after we discover what's there!) — and in that respect every being, human or otherwise, is different.

But you're wrong about Dane. He was a whistleblower, of course. Read his actual letter.

For people who paid attention, he was able to help them make the life-changing break from the Church — while others of their contemporaries never understood what was happening, and are still imprisoned to this day. He wasn't the only one banging the drum, but he happened to do the right thing at just the right time, and really made a difference.

That really counts for something. He may not have saved anyone from death (though maybe he did!) — but he definitely saved lives.

[TomKat]

If he is so authentic, why does he back-date the Mission Holder's Conference (and the resulting the schism) to the end of 1981 instead of the end of 1982 when it actually happened? His letter was obviously written long after the fact and he had no role in the schism under the name of Dane Tops. I was in Scn in LA from 80 to 84 and I had never heard of anyone going by the name of Dane Tops. It seems he is trying to INSERT HIMSELF INTO HISTORY, perhaps to revive the mythology of Scientology of the 1970s, which was truly exciting and full of promise. The people most responsible for the schism in the U.S. were David Mayo, Alan Walter, Bill Franks, Larry West, Bill Robertson, and, MOST OF ALL: Jon Zegel whose series of tapes thoroughly exposed the true history of the Sea Org and Hubbard. Dane Tops' letter is merely a compilation of the things nearly everyone was saying back then. He was probably in LA in the schism period (based on some of the names he mentions), but I'd never seen his letter or heard of Dane Tops prior to Project Camelot.

The schism was actually started by David Miscavige in 1983 when he (after taking over for the AWOL Hubbard in 1982) started expelling virtually ALL of the leaders in the church "field." 1983 was interesting times, with a constant flow "goldenrod" (Supressive Person declares are written on gold-colored paper) on virtually all non-Sea Org opinion leaders, with Finance Police raids on missions, orgs and Scientologist-run businesses. Among the broad public the schism didn't really gather steam until 1984, when members still in good standing with the church were commonly seen at David Mayo's Sunday Barbecue in Santa Barbara. More and more Class 8 (the "keepers" of "standard tech") counselors were leaving the "Church of Miscavige" to work for David Mayo, or just take their own field practices out of the Church, such as Mark Jones, Virginia Downsborough, Valerie Stansfield, Trey Lotz, Sarge Gerbode, and I can't remember who else. We started spelling Scientology "scientology" or "$cientology" to distinguish the 2 versions of it post-schism. These Class 8's were the last bastion of Hubbard's "standard tech" in the field, but around 1987 a guy from Elmyra, NY, named Harry Palmer started a practice called Avatar which captured the imagination of all of these "standard tech hardliners" and nearly ended the popularity of standard tech outside the Church (and Miscavige had already ended it inside the Church). People stopped using e-Meters and started exploring shamanism and eastern mysticism. But even today, there persists a version of standard tech in the lower levels of Ron's Org in Europe and a scattering of field practitioners in LA, who advertise "70s-style scientology" or "80s scientology." Supposedly it's also quite popular in Russia, outside of the Church.

[Bill Ryan]

Several points here — and respect to you by the way: because clearly you were around in those times. (I was not!)


If he is so authentic, why does he back-date the Mission Holder's Conference (and the resulting the schism) to the end of 1981 instead of the end of 1982 when it actually happened?

There were two Mission Holder's Conferences: one on 6 December 1981, and the other on 17 October 1982.

From The Handbook of Scientology, edited by James Levey
(Google books link here, where much of the book is publicly available)


https://books.google.com.ec/books?id=_dfzDQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA467&ots=9LPohfoigt&dq=1982%20%22Mission%20Holder's%20Conference%22&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q=1982%20%22Mission%20Holder's%20Conference%22&f=false

See pp.466-7: (footnote 6, and also in the main text — also on many sx-scientology forums and discussion boards)



For a related discussion, refer to [Mark 'Marty'] Rathbun's account of the Mission Holder's Conference of 1981, which partly set the stage for the events at the 1982 Conference.


...had no role in the schism under the name of Dane Tops.

Well, that's not his real name, of course. That was just the moniker under which he wrote the letter.


The people most responsible for the schism in the U.S. were David Mayo, Alan Walter, Bill Franks, Larry West, Bill Robertson, and, MOST OF ALL: Jon Zegel whose series of tapes thoroughly exposed the true history of the Sea Org and Hubbard.Yes.


Dane Tops' letter is merely a compilation of the things nearly everyone was saying back then.Yes, it was a summary. There was a growing wave of demand for change back then.


He was probably in LA in the schism period (based on some of the names he mentions), but I'd never seen his letter or heard of Dane Tops prior to Project Camelot.Yes, he was in the LA Org at that time.


But even today, there persists a version of standard tech in the lower levels of Ron's Org in Europe and a scattering of field practitioners in LA, who advertise "70s-style scientology" or "80s scientology." Supposedly it's also quite popular in Russia, outside of the Church.

Ron's Org was founded in 1983 by Bill Robertson, who (a) aimed to preserve Hubbard's techniques in unadulterated form (and deliver them ethically!), and (b) developed the advanced techniques to a very considerable extent.

Ron's Org is still very active, predominantly in Europe and Russia. The committee is based in Switzerland and Germany (mainly), but the majority of participants are in Russia, where there has been considerable expansion and the numbers of people working with very advanced techniques are in their many thousands.

[TomKat]

In 1976 Sea Org captain Bill Robertson was excited about a new organization chart ("org board") he had thought up, and he presented it to us staff during lunch. Next I heard of him was in 1983 or so, when I saw an expulsion order on the ASHO bulletin board describing how Bill had started a new group with a handful of followers to "put ethics in" on "sector nine" (this solar system) -- they reportedly carried baseball bats and claimed to be in telepathic contact with each other and animals. A few years later, when devising the Ron's Org advanced levels, he was charting entities on org boards... still with the org boards! Yes, he was quite crazy by then, wearing a dress at night to express his feminine side... one might say he was Ron's truest successor, being schizo and all. But odd as his advanced levels supposedly were, his lower levels were reportedly quite true to 70s Scientology.

I remember in the mid-90s there was a guy calling himself The Pilot (from the OT3 story) who had lots of people excited. He had concocted a past life history for himself that coincided with some of the stories Hubbard told about the "whole track" (life on alien planets, "invader forces"). He made the good point that the "Grade Chart" was upside-down, that one should start with entity removal first rather than last. But the excitement died down when his identity was revealed and it turned out he was quite dis-functional in life, unable to find work as a computer programmer during the tech boom, smelly, living in his car... There were a lot of people in the Sea Org and LA Org who seemed to be "degraded beings," who would likely have been bag people had they not found Scientology, joined staff and set about telling the rest of us what to do :-)

You might be surprised at the number of leaders in the New Age who are ex-Scientologists but don't talk about it. Jamie Sams ("Lea" channel and creator of a shamanic tarot deck) had a restaurant on Fountain Ave cater-corner from the big Scientology blue building. I already mentioned Avatar founder Harry Palmer, who once ran a Scientology mission in Elmyra. Shakti Gawain made a name for herself teaching visualization. More recently, there's Gary Douglas of Access Consciousness, where entity removal is a beginner's tool. There would be no -- zero -- secular exorcism without the ex-Scientologists who brought it into the neo-shamanism of the 80s (perhaps leading the Catholic Church to take it up again recently). And to this day, any New Age practice heavier than, say, aroma therapy -- anything with any real bite -- probably owes something to Scientology and/or shamanism (Scientology took a lot from shamanism also -- exorcism, sweat therapy).

[Bill Ryan]

odd as his advanced levels supposedly were, his lower levels were reportedly quite true to 70s Scientology.

You use the words 'supposedly' and 'reportedly', so that seems to imply (from this and and your other posts) that you may not know much about his work.

Yes, the 'lower' (less advanced) levels are very true to Hubbard's research. The advanced levels are based on the same foundation, and work extremely powerfully. References to 'organization' simply mean that groups of non-physical entities are often organized. (And, they are.)


I remember in the mid-90s there was a guy calling himself The Pilot.

Yes, his name was Ken Ogger. He was found dead in May 2007 in a swimming pool with his hands tied with wire and with weights on his feet.


You might be surprised at the number of leaders in the New Age who are ex-Scientologists but don't talk about it. Yes. Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

[Noelle]

The Tops interview is fascinating -- and an eye-opener for me. I knew little about Hubbard, save for the Penthouse Interview (http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm) with his son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr. The article was published in June 1983, right around the time the shift took place. So this interview may have been part of a campaign to demonize Hubbard?

[wegge]

Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

[TomKat]

Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

Rappoport used to give talks at the Scientology center in LA in the early 80s. I assumed he was a Scientologist but don't know for certain.

[TomKat]

The Tops interview is fascinating -- and an eye-opener for me. I knew little about Hubbard, save for the Penthouse Interview (http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm) with his son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr. The article was published in June 1983, right around the time the shift took place. So this interview may have been part of a campaign to demonize Hubbard?

LRH Jr saw an opportunity to demonize his dad, for sure. But people didn't take him seriously as he had left so long ago and by some reports was as crazy as his dad.

[TomKat]

You might be surprised at the number of leaders in the New Age who are ex-Scientologists but don't talk about it. Yes. Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

I never met Jim Humble but I must say I was surprised when he described a touch assist on your interview of him, and it sounded like you were giving him credit for inventing it :-)

[wegge]

Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

Rappoport used to give talks at the Scientology center in LA in the early 80s. I assumed he was a Scientologist but don't know for certain.

Thanks!
Can you recall what the talks were about?

[Icare]

Thank you for posting the link to the interview, Bill, I would never have actively looked for it otherwise.

As someone quite well-read on scientology - or so I thought - I felt I knew enough about it not to take any further interest in it. I read at least 3 books about what goes on in scientology (the last one being the one of David Miscavige's niece, the one before that being called "Blown for good"by a former member called Marc Headley).
I also watched several documentaries about it, mostly on Youtube and I must confess what Dane Tops claims about the people's perception of L.Ron Hubbard after the black ops interference exactly corresponds to my experience. I thought Hubbard was a money-grabbing, egotistic, sadistic maniac, a science fiction author who enjoyed fooling and controlling people. No way would I ever have contemplated doing auditing or anything like that.

After reading this interview my mind is blown - again.
It's another piece of the puzzle. And nothing surprises me anymore.

Now I'm even wondering whether I should do a course and get on that bridge.

Just in case you are reading this thread, Dane Tops, thank you so much and be well.

[TomKat]

Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

Rappoport used to give talks at the Scientology center in LA in the early 80s. I assumed he was a Scientologist but don't know for certain.

Thanks!
Can you recall what the talks were about?

I never went, but I assumed he was criticizing psychiatry and the LA Times, big enemies of Scientology.

Here he is on a list of Scientology Clears:

http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Clears_List

[James Newell]

Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

[Bill Ryan]

Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

Yes, I'd like to endorse James (Jim) here. He can work with clients remotely over Skype, he's trained to Class VIII, has MANY years (and thousands of hours) behind him, and has completed the Church OT8 (before he left) and the Ron's Org Levels to OT16 so far. For people who know what this means, he also delivers the 'L's. (Very few are trained to do that.)

For people who don't know exactly what all that means — he can help people with a lot of stuff, and knows absolutely what he's doing. :)

[TomKat]

Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

If you remove the group dynamic, it's good stuff. Personal insight regarding self-improvement, applied and enforced on a group, automatically is fascism.

[TomKat]

Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

Yes, I'd like to endorse James (Jim) here. He can work with clients remotely over Skype, he's trained to Class VIII, has MANY years (and thousands of hours) behind him, and has completed the Church OT8 (before he left) and the Ron's Org Levels to OT16 so far. For people who know what this means, he also delivers the 'L's. (Very few are trained to do that.)

For people who don't know exactly what all that means — he can help people with a lot of stuff, and knows absolutely what he's doing. :)

And if you ever run out of entities to run, start dissolving what they attach to, the id ("reactive mind").

[wegge]

I was just rereading Fundamentals of Success and have to say I love its practicality and deep insight
Does anyone have another book recommendation for DIY Scientology? (Specially about communication and Maybe some OT drills)

Regarding entities, I got one time a free session from someone who built a whole system around "first the entities the rest will take care of itself" and with hindsight I get the feeling that this actually brought on some more trouble in my 3rd eye frontal area.

[Cara]

@wegge, I don’t have a recommendation of a specific book for you but I can point you in the direction of a vast archive of materials:

http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/

This archive has many of the older versions of books as well as audios and transcripts of lectures.

[TomKat]

I was just rereading Fundamentals of Success and have to say I love its practicality and deep insight
Does anyone have another book recommendation for DIY Scientology? (Specially about communication and Maybe some OT drills)

Regarding entities, I got one time a free session from someone who built a whole system around "first the entities the rest will take care of itself" and with hindsight I get the feeling that this actually brought on some more trouble in my 3rd eye frontal area.

Self-Analysis.

[Tangri]

Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com


www.getmoreable.com

How much are you charging? Is it per problem or for all packet?

-Out of Body techniques delivered
-Ethics counseling
-Group counseling and lectures
-Traumatic Incident Reduction
-PTSD assistance
-Business consultations
-Advanced levels & reviews

[James Newell]

All the basic books are good to read. Start with Dianetics the modern science of mental health, that's how it all started in 1950 btw, people got together and wham it started.
Next book to read is science of survival, this book in 1951 LRH busted the MKULTRA program basically, and next the self analysis book, for a start. I will give you a link where any get some data. http://scientolipedia.org/info/Main_Page check out podcast 13 on it I recommend it.
I also have some books I could email anyone also. Contact me in private if you want more. www.getmoreable.com

[James Newell]

There are different actions and different levels. I can deliver the whole " Bridge" from new to advanced. Go thru the website email if want further specifics. I handle individuals case by case.
Although if you have a large group you would like group auditing on I can do that too.

[Tangri]

www.getmoreable.com

How much are you charging? Is it per problem or for all packet?

-Out of Body techniques delivered
-Ethics counseling
-Group counseling and lectures
-Traumatic Incident Reduction
-PTSD assistance
-Business consultations
-Advanced levels & reviews

[James Newell]

I have different charges on different actions. It is frequently dependent on the clients interest on what he wants to handle.
I would suggest if you have questions or want an interview for something to go to my website and send an email to me and I'll get back to you personally about it. For example I can relieve alot of suffering if you have a loss about something and can even do this over the net.

Jim www.getmoreable.com

[Bill Ryan]

A note of interest, maybe, to some: I'm reliably informed that Dane Tops has finally revealed herself at a recent independent Scientology Convention.

(Read that sentence carefully! :) )

[ashva]

Amazing!

Any further detail?

Can you least point us in the right direction?

And do you think she would be open to interview?

[Bill Ryan]

Amazing!

Any further detail?

Can you least point us in the right direction?

And do you think she would be open to interview?

Well, I need to be a little careful — I don't know who else knows her name, but apparently it's out there now.

The very neat thing here is that of course everyone, including the Church of Scientology, assumed without question for the last 36 years that Dane Tops was a man. :)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Herself. Wow. And some synchronicity, personally. When reading up on the Miscavige lawsuit scandal(s) the other day, I was speculating on the presence behind the scenes, somewhere, of Dane Tops in all that. If not, I had to wonder if he was still around, as it's been so many years. And now this. Fascinating! A crop of names come to mind who it could be. But way to go with the misdirection. I never guessed for a second that he was a she. Now she's out, she'll be in the firing line. Hope she's well protected!

[Kryztian]

The very neat thing here is that of course everyone, including the Church of Scientology, assumed without question for the last 36 years that Dane Tops was a man. :)

So when she went to the mailbox dressed as a gay men in a trench coat, it was really a woman underneath? It makes some of the strange stories in her interviewer even stranger :flypig:! Bill, did you change the gender of some of the other people in the story?

I just finished reading the Dane Tops interview and it is an incredible story. It is often said that after a religion or church starts up, something mysteriously appears to turn that system into a form of social control and take away or water down its teachings and techniques which can enlighten, empower and liberate. This is a great example here.

http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html

[Hervé]

[...]
So when she went to the mailbox dressed as a gay men in a trench coat, it was really a woman underneath?

[...]
That was the best possible cover since, in those times, any gay person wouldn't be accepted to be a member/parishioner (never mind "staff") of the "Church" so that no one from the "Church" would be looking at a gay person to be a Scientology whistle blower, man or woman. And, if they did, they would still have been looking for a "man."

[Valerie Villars]

It's interesting that Dane mentions NXIVM as being an offshoot of Scientology in a good way. Is that the same NXIVM as we are hearing so much about these days? Or is that a different offshoot? I do realize the interview was conducted ten years ago.

If it is the same one in the news today, it apparently suffered the same fate as Scientology, by being subverted.

[Bill Ryan]

The very neat thing here is that of course everyone, including the Church of Scientology, assumed without question for the last 36 years that Dane Tops was a man. :)

So when she went to the mailbox dressed as a gay men in a trench coat, it was really a woman underneath? It makes some of the strange stories in her interviewer even stranger :flypig:! Bill, did you change the gender of some of the other people in the story?

Yes, when she did all that stuff she was all the time a woman, in disguise. And yes, I was always careful to refer to Dane as 'him', to maintain the assumption and the planned misdirection.

[Bill Ryan]

It's interesting that Dane mentions NXIVM as being an offshoot of Scientology in a good way. Is that the same NXIVM as we are hearing so much about these days? Or is that a different offshoot? I do realize the interview was conducted ten years ago.

If it is the same one in the news today, it apparently suffered the same fate as Scientology, by being subverted.

I know literally almost nothing at all about NXIVM. But yes, subversion of groups like that is always possible, and maybe even likely. Knowing 'Dane', if she said back then (http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html) (10 years ago come September)


NXIVM came out of it [Scientology] and NXIVM is just fabulous, improving on some things in Scientology in several important ways
... my personal default would be to respect her informed opinion.

[Valerie Villars]

The founder of NXIVM, Keith Raneire was found recently to be recruiting women as sex slaves and is going to prison for a long time.

That's why I say it perhaps started out well, but went south very quickly. As things often do unfortunately.

I liked Dane from her interview very much.

[ashva]

So who was 'Dane Tops'?

[TomKat]

Okay. I thought I had read every transcript on Project Camelot before finding my way to Avalon, but I either missed this one or forgot it in my marathon searching. So much of what this guy is saying is exactly the kind of remembering I had when my dna woke up. It's incredible. Every time I think I have heard it all, I find some new, mind blowing stuff.
I'm about a third of the way in and can't recommend this transcript enough.

I was in Scientology from 73 - 83, and practised outside of the church for decades after that. I try, but cannot finish, reading the interview because it is all speculation presented as fact. I'm well familiar with the myths of the effectiveness of Scientology presented here. The writing style is pure Hubbard, pointing to Tops' having been sufficiently overwhelmed by the (largely fictional) Hubbard persona so as to adopt it for himself. Yes, extraordinary things occasionally happened to practitioners but there were no standard, everyday miracles as claimed in the church PR. Hubbard kept trying, in vain, to produce the state of "clear" in somebody, and kept redefining it and adding techniques. I knew the "first real Clear," John McMaster, so declared in the 60s -- over 10 years after the claims of earlier "clears" from 1950 on. Tops' claim that the govt reversed Dianetics to create MK-ultra do not fit with Hubbard's own laim: that he was uncovering cases of brainwashing (he called it Pain Drug Hypnosis) from the beginning of his work in Dianetics. If I could read more I would comment more, but all I can say is Dane Tops, whoever he is, lacks credibility. I was in LA during the splinter movement, and I never heard of anyone like him with another name. The main people responsible for splintering Scientology were David May, John Zegel, and a few other's I'm sure I've forgotten about. I will answer any questions stemming from Tops' interview, but I don't have the patience to read it.

[Cara]

... If I could read more I would comment more, but all I can say is Dane Tops, whoever he is, lacks credibility. I was in LA during the splinter movement, and I never heard of anyone like him with another name.

This is just a quick clarification to note that Dane Tops has been revealed to be a woman, as discussed in posts further up the thread:






The very neat thing here is that of course everyone, including the Church of Scientology, assumed without question for the last 36 years that Dane Tops was a man. :)

So when she went to the mailbox dressed as a gay men in a trench coat, it was really a woman underneath? It makes some of the strange stories in her interviewer even stranger :flypig:! Bill, did you change the gender of some of the other people in the story?

Yes, when she did all that stuff she was all the time a woman, in disguise. And yes, I was always careful to refer to Dane as 'him', to maintain the assumption and the planned misdirection.

[James Newell]

Dane Tops was simply a person who didn't like the takeover of the Church of Scientology in the 80's and wrote a few letters. And that got the church pissed off, it is just another piece of history re this organization. I agree with a good amount of what she said but most of her views are simply her opinions and shouldn't be taken any further than that.

That the gov't would want a valuable spiritual tech is a given. I doubt there is any religion or org worth a damn that hasn't been infiltrated by the powers that be.

Bill's interview definitely forwarded the mystery of Dane Tops to new heights.

Standard Scientology does work quite well and I and my many preclears can attest it works quite well. Miracles can occur and amazing realizations are just part of it.

If one didn't get these kind of gains I don't think they were doing it standardly.

[TomKat]

Standard Scientology does work quite well and I and my many preclears can attest it works quite well. Miracles can occur and amazing realizations are just part of it. If one didn't get these kind of gains I don't think they were doing it standardly.

My observation has been that "Standard Scientology" as practised before 1978 or so, did work quite well, but nowhere nearly as well as advertised, and led to psychological dependency for another and another and another session. Occasional "super powers" were a temporary, one-off of the type one might get in any other mystical practice. Standard Scientology as practised now in the Church of Scientology appears to do more damage than good, due to the emphasis on "confessionals" and Nazi-style management practices that outweigh whatever good can be achieved in the course room or session room.

The much ballyhooed "Old OT levels" 4 - 7 did not produce permanent results for most people, did not produce super powers, so those who had money ended up doing the expensive "L" rundowns in search of those powers. Eventually in 1978 they introduced the "new OT levels," which do not even attempt to develop any so-called super powers, are strictly about erasing and other "negative gain." The history of Scientology is one of new promises and hype on top of previous failed promises, all the way back to 1950. If Hubbard were alive and vital today, the current program would have been scrapped and maybe a few new programs introduced with accompanying hype, wild claims and new false hope for new generations.

[Bill Ryan]

Standard Scientology does work quite well and I and my many preclears can attest it works quite well. Miracles can occur and amazing realizations are just part of it. If one didn't get these kind of gains I don't think they were doing it standardly.

My observation has been that "Standard Scientology" as practised before 1978 or so, did work quite well, but nowhere nearly as well as advertised, and led to psychological dependency for another and another and another session. Occasional "super powers" were a temporary, one-off of the type one might get in any other mystical practice. Standard Scientology as practised now in the Church of Scientology appears to do more damage than good, due to the emphasis on "confessionals" and Nazi-style management practices that outweigh whatever good can be achieved in the course room or session room.

The much ballyhooed "Old OT levels" 4 - 7 did not produce permanent results for most people, did not produce super powers, so those who had money ended up doing the expensive "L" rundowns in search of those powers. Eventually in 1978 they introduced the "new OT levels," which do not even attempt to develop any so-called super powers, are strictly about erasing and other "negative gain." The history of Scientology is one of new promises and hype on top of previous failed promises, all the way back to 1950. If Hubbard were alive and vital today, the current program would have been scrapped and maybe a few new programs introduced with accompanying hype, wild claims and new false hope for new generations.

~~~

Yes, Tom, but if I may gently say, you're not up to date. There may be quite a bit you're not fully aware of, or not familiar with.

The Bridge has since been expanded to a very significant extent outside of the Church. The new material really does work, and work extremely well.

[The Moss Trooper]

Standard Scientology does work quite well and I and my many preclears can attest it works quite well. Miracles can occur and amazing realizations are just part of it. If one didn't get these kind of gains I don't think they were doing it standardly.

My observation has been that "Standard Scientology" as practised before 1978 or so, did work quite well, but nowhere nearly as well as advertised, and led to psychological dependency for another and another and another session. Occasional "super powers" were a temporary, one-off of the type one might get in any other mystical practice. Standard Scientology as practised now in the Church of Scientology appears to do more damage than good, due to the emphasis on "confessionals" and Nazi-style management practices that outweigh whatever good can be achieved in the course room or session room.

The much ballyhooed "Old OT levels" 4 - 7 did not produce permanent results for most people, did not produce super powers, so those who had money ended up doing the expensive "L" rundowns in search of those powers. Eventually in 1978 they introduced the "new OT levels," which do not even attempt to develop any so-called super powers, are strictly about erasing and other "negative gain." The history of Scientology is one of new promises and hype on top of previous failed promises, all the way back to 1950. If Hubbard were alive and vital today, the current program would have been scrapped and maybe a few new programs introduced with accompanying hype, wild claims and new false hope for new generations.

~~~

Yes, Tom, but if I may gently say, you're not up to date. There may be quite a bit you're not fully aware of, or not familiar with.

The Bridge has since been expanded to a very significant extent outside of the Church. The new material really does work, and work extremely well.

If I may ask Bill,

can you break-down in easily digestible language why the new material works so well, and what can it achieve please?

I've tried, over maybe four years, to try and gain an understanding of what this practice can do for people, but am still pretty much non the wiser due to the conflicting views out there on the internet.

Many thanks.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Does the new material provide any information helpful to align with Source (i.e. "Thy will be done.")? No imposters allowed. :-)

[Bill Ryan]

Does the new material provide any information helpful to align with Source (i.e. "Thy will be done.")? No imposters allowed. :-)

Yes, it does.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Is the "new material" available to the public?

[Kryztian]

These are great questions and I look forward to the answers. Perhaps we need a new thread on a topic about what Freezone Scientology can do for the average human being.

[Bill Ryan]

If I may ask Bill,

can you break-down in easily digestible language why the new material works so well, and what can it achieve please?

I've tried, over maybe four years, to try and gain an understanding of what this practice can do for people, but am still pretty much non the wiser due to the conflicting views out there on the internet.

Many thanks.

Well, I'll try! :)

There are several summary ways in which these processes work. (And there are many of them, all needing to be applied correctly, just like tuning a car engine, or optimizing one's health.)


What's called 'negative gain'. The analogy there might be regaining one's health by eradicating a virus.
Optimizing one's natural protection. As above, it's like strengthening the spiritual immune system.
Enhancing one's natural psychic abilities, such as telepathy, remote perception, and so on. That's connected to (1) above, inasmuch as the analogy is like freeing the stuck brakes, as well as tuning the engine.
Removing the influence of emotionally charged incidents from one's deep past (or even one's recent past). It can't be emphasized enough the extent to which we're all influenced by non-optimum events of various kinds, that happened eons ago and which may not ever have been completely healed.
The above can apply not just with emotionally charged incidents, but anything at all which leaves an open question or a state of not knowing. Like, wondering what one experienced when such-and-such happened, or a great deal of attention on an incompletely known past life. That in itself can capture personal energy and act as a kind of sea anchor on one's spiritual growth.
Various training routines that help one to deal with everyday issues large and small (non-physical issues, too), in a effective and causative way.
A spectrum of other processes that are a little hard to describe, but which optimize one's ability in various areas. Some of these (known as the 'Grades') are encountered fairly early on. They can also be done many times, each time cutting deeper as one's awareness increases, with new issues being addressed. They also have some counterparts at more advanced levels, in which more esoteric, non-physical abilities are enhanced.

[The Moss Trooper]

If I may ask Bill,

can you break-down in easily digestible language why the new material works so well, and what can it achieve please?

I've tried, over maybe four years, to try and gain an understanding of what this practice can do for people, but am still pretty much non the wiser due to the conflicting views out there on the internet.

Many thanks.

Well, I'll try! :)

There are several summary ways in which these processes work. (And there are many of them, all needing to be applied correctly, just like tuning a car engine, or optimizing one's health.)


What's called 'negative gain'. The analogy there might be regaining one's health by eradicating a virus.
Optimizing one's natural protection. As above, it's like strengthening the spiritual immune system.
Enhancing one's natural psychic abilities, such as telepathy, remote perception, and so on. That's connected to (1) above, inasmuch as the analogy is like freeing the stuck brakes, as well as tuning the engine.
Removing the influence of emotionally charged incidents from one's deep past (or even one's recent past). It can't be emphasized enough the extent to which we're all influenced by non-optimum events of various kinds, that happened eons ago and which may not ever have been completely healed.
The above can apply not just with emotionally charged incidents, but anything at all which leaves an open question or a state of not knowing. Like, wondering what one experienced when such-and-such happened, or a great deal of attention on an incompletely known past life. That in itself can capture personal energy and act as a kind of sea anchor on one's spiritual growth.
Various training routines that help one to deal with everyday issues large and small (non-physical issues, too), in a effective and causative way.
A spectrum of other processes that are a little hard to describe, but which optimize one's ability in various areas. Some of these (known as the 'Grades') are encountered fairly early on. They can also be done many times, each time cutting deeper as one's awareness increases, with new issues being addressed. They also have some counterparts at more advanced levels, in which more esoteric, non-physical abilities are enhanced.



Thank you for the detailed, and easy to understand, reply. Much appreciated.


I for a while, recently, went to-and-fro as to whether to engage with a Freezone to see if I could benefit in any way from what they had to offer. I'm still undecided, and now find myself leaning toward not engaging with this practice. I have read with interest what Jamie DeWolf (L. Ron Hubbard's Great Grandson) has brought forth over the last few years. I include this link here, for Tony Ortega's site, for anyone's interest:

https://tonyortega.org/2014/05/10/jamie-dewolf-ive-found-the-last-memoir-of-the-son-of-scientologys-founder/

Jamie DeWolf: I’ve found the last memoir of the son of Scientology’s founder



During a mesmerizing performance last night in Clearwater, Florida at the Flag Down anti-Scientology conference, Jamie DeWolf made a stunning revelation. He’s authenticated bizarre writings that had been attributed to his grandfather, L. Ron Hubbard Jr., who was the son of Scientology’s founder. They paint a disturbing portrait of the influence of the occult on the Hubbard men as they used Scientology in its early days to further their personal aims.

Jamie found that in 1981 his grandfather had written a memoir he titled “The Telling of Me, by Me.” Jamie read the introduction and some pages of bizarre material in which Nibs talked about learning the occult from his famous father.

Jamie actually first ran into those occult writings when we brought them to his attention several months ago. Arnie Lerma had posted a portion of them online some years ago, saying that they were from another work that Nibs had helped write in the early 1970s. During our research, we discovered that the occult pages couldn’t be from that earlier work, but Arnie couldn’t help us determine where they were from. When we brought them to Jamie’s attention, we told him that we couldn’t be sure where they came from or if they were authentic. And until last night we didn’t know that he’d found out their actual origin.

Jamie tells us that he’s been probing his family members for more information about his grandfather. And that’s how he learned that the family still had material that belonged to Nibs which had been left behind after his 1991 death. In that material was the 1981 manuscript of “The Telling of Me, by Me,” including the introduction and occult section that Jamie made public last night.

From L. Ron Hubbard Jr's manuscript, "The Telling of Me, by Me".


I’m the son of God. I mislead you slightly. I’m the son of the man who creates gods. Again, I mislead you slightly. I’m a son of the man who created and founded Dianetics and Scientology, which creates gods. I’m a son of L. Ron Hubbard. This book is my dying declaration. My last will and testament. My father will order my death. My father does not use the word ‘murder.’ He prefers to use the word ‘suicide.’

…

I’ll give you a full tour, a tour that will cost you only a little sanity, a little reality, a queasy stomach maybe, or even an erection, an aching clitoris, a hard nipple or two. You may want to rush into the nearest church, or run out of one. A view on this tour will make a terminal ecstasy or permanent celibacy.

…

I left the orgs, as they’re called, November 23, 1959 at 9 a.m. sharp while I was at our headquarters in Washington D.C., 1812 19th Street. At that time, I fully intended to entirely forget the whole sorry mess. The con. The mountains of bull**** and beast-****. I tried. I failed. I am still failing. Thank God for failure. If I’d been successful there wouldn’t be this book.

…

Just when people think they have me or dad brought to the ground in a box, we click into the realm of the great beast. This isn’t science fiction, fantasy, or insanity. Ask the thousands of people I’ve personally known and who have dealt with us personally. We are mind****ers. Real mind****ers in the real world.

…

Dianetics and Scientology is the largest, oldest, and most powerful cult in existence. Period. I am one. He has hordes of people and cash. The house odds are in his favor. That’s all. I’ve always been ready, willing, and able to put my life where my mouth is. Let’s all see if he is. I hope so. I pray so. Come out, Daddy. Come out, wherever you are. Pick your weapons and battleground. I have a book to give you.

…

I do not intend to replace L. Ron Hubbard. I do not intend to assume command of the junk pile. I resisted the numerous offers, both internal and external. My gauntlet has been openly thrown. Let him, and him alone, pick it up.

…

What the hell is Dianetics and Scientology? It’s a religion. A religion of self. It’s one man’s religion. One man’s labyrinth. A trip of L. Ron Hubbard’s. A trip he lays on everyone else as ‘the trip,’ their trip, your trip. A science fiction story he wrote and forced into reality within the heads of others by the will of L. Ron Hubbard. The self-created fantasy of one man brought to deadly reality for others by a simple word: agreement.

…

What LRH drummed into my head by his magic tech was, “Do what you will is the whole of the law. Do only that which satisfies the Will.” What the hell does that mean? I didn’t find out myself, consciously, that is, until mid-December 1952 when my father was giving a series of lectures in Philadelphia. Not from the lectures — privately, in his hotel room. He deemed it proper at that time to openly initiate me into his sources. He gives me the first of a series of books. Books and content to be kept forever secret. He says, to reveal them is to cause instant insanity. Rip my mind apart. Destroy me, he warns. Secrets, techniques, and powers he alone has conquered and harnessed.

…

I listen with hypnotic fascination. The books; some recently republished, some over 1,200 years old, some 5,000 years old.

“Gifts,” he says.

He is excited, fearful, cautious. he is tense. Unimparted secrets imparted for the first time. I open the books, intending to only thumb through. I am awed and amazed; I know these books! How could I?

He answers: “They were used to conceive you. And birth you too. I’ve read them to you while you were asleep. Drugged too. Hypnotized too. For years,” he says.

“Katie too. And Polly too. Scores of women. Blood and pain women. My Scarlet Women,” he says. “Souls torn open,” he says. “I’ve made The Magick really work,” he says. “No more foolish rituals. I’ve stripped The Magick to basics. Access without liability,” he says. “I’ll teach you. Learn well, my son, for you shall take my place. Be likened unto me. Fashioned by my hand. Entering the Golden Dawn with me and carrying it to the stars and beyond,” he says. “Scarlet Women of your own,” he says. “Plenty. For They are the secret to the Doorway. Use and consume. Feast. Drink the power through them. Waste and discard them. Sex by Will,” he says. “Love by Will,” he says. “No caring. No sharing. No feelings. None,” he says. “Sex and love reversed,” he says. “Blind love through sex. Love isn’t sex. Love is no good; puts you at effect-point,” he says. “Sex is power,” he says. “No, sex is the route to power,” he says. “The route to the Doorway. The Doorway to power,” he says. “FInd your Scarlet Woman,” he says. “Create your Causation,” he says. “Make your own Scarlet Women,” he says.

“Scarlet?” I ask.

“Yes, Scarlet. The blood of their bodies; the blood of their soul,” he says. “Release the Will from bondage,” he says. “Bend the body. Bend the mind. Bend their will,” he says. “Beat back the past,” he says. “Free your Will. Unfetter the Will from the past, from the future,” he says. “The present is the only thing. No consequences. None answering. No guilt,” he says. “Nothing is wrong in the present. The Will is free — Total free,” he says. “No feelings. No effort. Pure thought. Thinking alone; separated. The Will postulating the will,” he says.

“Will, Sex, Love, Blood, Door, Power, Will. Logical,” he says. “The Doorway of plenty. The great Door of the Great Beast. Him. You. Me. Our Will. Our Power. Our Reality. Ours Alone,” he says.

He repeats an incantation; invokes the Door opening to the realm of The Beast. The Great Beast. I vomit. I hurt. I feel the power flood through the Doorway. I shine. I am well.

Father says again, “Never tell or much worse will happen.”

I nod. He commands me to read. I have trouble. I keep trancing. Father has commanded. I read. “The Book Of The Law.” “The Sacred Magic Of Abra-Melin.” “The Sex Magic Of The Ninth Degree Of The O.T.O.” And later, many more textbooks. Many more hours of learning. Of practice with Dad. Practice alone. And use. An academy of religious arts and sciences. The academy of power. Hubbard power. Personal power. Not Scientology power. Great power. Beast power.

Dad was correct. Very right on. It worked exactly as he said. It still does and always will.

People mistake L. Ron Hubbard and his Scientology. They see the apparency, and not the actuality. By design. Scientology does not work as stated; but as intended. As intended by its creator L Ron Hubbard. To keep the Doorway open. To remain in the realm of the Great Beast. To feed the hunger of the Will. His Will. When he emptied the purse of man and the heart of women; it seeks onward and outward. Appetite. Forever appetite.

Scientology is the snare. The passion flower. the Cloak of Lights. The glow of power. A power always wanting. Always needing. The Will never satisfied.

Keep the books under lock and key, he says. I do for years. I burn them as a symbolic gesture many more years later. For I am my own exorcist.


Seems to be that those that are using such practices may not know, ultimately, from whence they came and what the intention was behind the public facade. And as we all should know, intent is everything.

[Bill Ryan]

Is the "new material" available to the public?

Yes... Jim Newell (James Newell (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102263-Dane-Tops-the-Camelot-Church-of-Scientology-whistleblower&p=1306627&viewfull=1#post1306627)) has it all. (So do I, but I'm not formally trained to deliver it.)

[TomKat]

Seems to be that those that are using such practices may not know, ultimately, from whence they came and what the intention was behind the public facade. And as we all should know, intent is everything.

That makes for great reading! Considering the source, though, I'm not sure how much, if any, is true. But assuming it is true, it doesn't invalidate the techniques of Scientology. Most of it was not originated by Hubbard, although he took all the credit. And a lot that he did originate was derivative from Freud, Maslow and others. Also, that which was bad got changed or discarded by the tech people actually doing sessions day after day. That's the problem with being a sociopath: you have to surround yourself with good people to avoid detection.

Was Hubbard a schizophrenic? Probably. Certainly LRH Jr was. Might a schizophrenic create a fantasy about getting one over on the whole world? Sure, why not? Hubbard seemed to have a need to balance any good he did with an equal amount of evil. Perhaps that was part of his genius, and his seeming ability to stand in hell and touch heaven. He was a kind of mental giant, but certainly not a very sane one.

[James Newell]

Standard Scientology does work quite well and I and my many preclears can attest it works quite well. Miracles can occur and amazing realizations are just part of it. If one didn't get these kind of gains I don't think they were doing it standardly.

My observation has been that "Standard Scientology" as practised before 1978 or so, did work quite well, but nowhere nearly as well as advertised, and led to psychological dependency for another and another and another session. Occasional "super powers" were a temporary, one-off of the type one might get in any other mystical practice. Standard Scientology as practised now in the Church of Scientology appears to do more damage than good, due to the emphasis on "confessionals" and Nazi-style management practices that outweigh whatever good can be achieved in the course room or session room.

The much ballyhooed "Old OT levels" 4 - 7 did not produce permanent results for most people, did not produce super powers, so those who had money ended up doing the expensive "L" rundowns in search of those powers. Eventually in 1978 they introduced the "new OT levels," which do not even attempt to develop any so-called super powers, are strictly about erasing and other "negative gain." The history of Scientology is one of new promises and hype on top of previous failed promises, all the way back to 1950. If Hubbard were alive and vital today, the current program would have been scrapped and maybe a few new programs introduced with accompanying hype, wild claims and new false hope for new generations.

I did the old Ot levels 4- 7 and they still seem fairly stable to me and that is my observation. Super powers weren't in the end phenomenas as I recall. But also certain things attained are quite unreal to people being bodies. Also the old physical universe can give anyone on any level a bad hair day. There are no absolutes or guarantees on increasing your awareness and abilities as a spiritual being. Maybe people did offer some ridiculous things but most of the things stated I achieved and what is more amazing is that a well trained auditor that can duplicate the data can get amazing gains for others.

I think Scientology is analogous to a mountain, the mountain being the not know and case of an immortal spiritual that he has had through the eons. Many a mountain climber blame the mountain or their fellow climbers for their inability to climb the mountain. But we all know if he was a better climber and prepared a bit better he could have made it to the top if he didn't become disillusioned and give up the climb.

As I continue to climb I think the mountain doesn't want climbing, but screw the mountain I climb anyway.

[TomKat]

I did the old Ot levels 4- 7 and they still seem fairly stable to me and that is my observation. Super powers weren't in the end phenomenas as I recall.

Those levels had drills, such as out of body, intention, etc. Drills were absent in the new levels, which consisted of mainly exorcism (the latest attempt to create a "real Clear").

This description on old OT6 is accurate, as I recall:

https://www.reddit.com/r/scientology/comments/b2o3gz/old_ot6_question/

[TomKat]

As I continue to climb I think the mountain doesn't want climbing, but screw the mountain I climb anyway.

Maybe take a year off. And if resistance is from your body, the body always wins the argument.

[James Newell]

You are correct. Doing the upper levels helps make it easier. There is quite a bit more to handle after those original levels.

[mischief]

I was just rereading Fundamentals of Success and have to say I love its practicality and deep insight
Does anyone have another book recommendation for DIY Scientology? (Specially about communication and Maybe some OT drills)

Regarding entities, I got one time a free session from someone who built a whole system around "first the entities the rest will take care of itself" and with hindsight I get the feeling that this actually brought on some more trouble in my 3rd eye frontal area.

Self-Analysis.

Yes!
I was on staff in Auckland for a number of years and this was the book I preferred to sell to people...something they could start with straight away and get results they could see.

[mischief]

Standard Scientology does work quite well and I and my many preclears can attest it works quite well. Miracles can occur and amazing realizations are just part of it. If one didn't get these kind of gains I don't think they were doing it standardly.

My observation has been that "Standard Scientology" as practised before 1978 or so, did work quite well, but nowhere nearly as well as advertised, and led to psychological dependency for another and another and another session. Occasional "super powers" were a temporary, one-off of the type one might get in any other mystical practice. Standard Scientology as practised now in the Church of Scientology appears to do more damage than good, due to the emphasis on "confessionals" and Nazi-style management practices that outweigh whatever good can be achieved in the course room or session room.

The much ballyhooed "Old OT levels" 4 - 7 did not produce permanent results for most people, did not produce super powers, so those who had money ended up doing the expensive "L" rundowns in search of those powers. Eventually in 1978 they introduced the "new OT levels," which do not even attempt to develop any so-called super powers, are strictly about erasing and other "negative gain." The history of Scientology is one of new promises and hype on top of previous failed promises, all the way back to 1950. If Hubbard were alive and vital today, the current program would have been scrapped and maybe a few new programs introduced with accompanying hype, wild claims and new false hope for new generations.

~~~

Yes, Tom, but if I may gently say, you're not up to date. There may be quite a bit you're not fully aware of, or not familiar with.

The Bridge has since been expanded to a very significant extent outside of the Church. The new material really does work, and work extremely well.

Unfortunately Bill, those of us who suffered under the current Scio regime and I am assuming its still the same regime, have difficulty accepting, let alone hoping what you say is true.

I have come to the conclusion that there has been a systematic 'Find, Isolate, divide and conquer' strategy put in place to ensure all inhabitants on this planet are reduced to a decayed state.
It is my belief that this has been on going for centuries and is now in its final stages. I'm feeling a bit negative right now, sorry, but I think we have run out of time unless you and your people have something that can turn things around right now.

[TomKat]

The Bridge has since been expanded to a very significant extent outside of the Church. The new material really does work, and work extremely well.

Unfortunately Bill, those of us who suffered under the current Scio regime and I am assuming its still the same regime, have difficulty accepting, let alone hoping what you say is true.

I have come to the conclusion that there has been a systematic 'Find, Isolate, divide and conquer' strategy put in place to ensure all inhabitants on this planet are reduced to a decayed state.
It is my belief that this has been on going for centuries and is now in its final stages. I'm feeling a bit negative right now, sorry, but I think we have run out of time unless you and your people have something that can turn things around right now.

I don't know about the Ron's Org levels, but the levels in the Church also produced results, although not to the degree advertised. For those with some psychic sensibility, check out this video of David Mayo. With his large, white aura, he could probably be mistaken for a saint or a holy man in some cultures. But no, he was just a guy who cleaned a lot of crap out of his energy body:

https://youtu.be/RCtPa8UEA6Q

[Bill Ryan]

The Bridge has since been expanded to a very significant extent outside of the Church. The new material really does work, and work extremely well.

Unfortunately Bill, those of us who suffered under the current Scio regime and I am assuming its still the same regime, have difficulty accepting, let alone hoping what you say is true.
I really understand! But that doesn't mean it's not true. :)

I wrote this page, over 10 years ago. (Remarkably, it's still there! :thumbsup: ) This might possibly help a little. It's a good summary.


http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Rons_Org

[James Newell]

Nice write up Bill! As I continue to do the Ron's Org bridge, I stand in amazement of what we can untangle as spiritual beings. Some have had failures in the Ron's Org tech but it continues to deliver to me anyway in abundance.

http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Rons_Org

[TomKat]

I finally finished reading the transcript of Bill's Dane Tops interview. I find this fascinating:

D: "There are so many isms and things that came out of Scientology. Regression. Rebirthing came out of it, Primal Scream, Werner Erhard’s est came out of it, Landmark came out of it, NXIVM came out of it and NXIVM is just fabulous, improving on some things in Scientology in several important ways. I’ve done them all and seen what people did with Hubbard’s stuff."

NXIVM is fabulous? Dane was in the NXIVM cult? Interesting...

[Ron Mauer Sr]

It is a surprise to connect Scientology to Rebirthing. Years ago, I experimented with Rebirthing a few times. Some people have a significant and dramatic reaction. I felt no change except some physical attraction to the lady facilitator during the process.

[TomKat]

It is a surprise to connect Scientology to Rebirthing. Years ago, I experimented with Rebirthing a few times. Some people have a significant and dramatic reaction. I felt no change except some physical attraction to the lady facilitator during the process.

Yes, I knew about the connection with Rebirthing. It is a very creative application of the Dianetics book, so creative that Scientology can't really take credit.

Apparently the notorious sex cult started out as a spin-off of Scientology:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/inside-the-numerous-shrouded-links-between-nxivm-and-scientology_2977898.html

NEW YORK—Keith Raniere, the former leader of purported self-help organization NXIVM “borrowed heavily” from the teachings of Scientology, copied a number of its internal methodologies, and, in some instances, plagiarized word-for-word its unique terminology for his own exalted classes.

[James Newell]

I think the nwo is into buying up workable spiritual tech. Also any religion that can be downgraded into manipulating the people of this planet. This includes the big 3 religions. I don't know about Buddhism, but I have heard that the Dali Lama sold out long ago too.

It seems you have to adhere very tightly to your own code and not be lured into selling out or a blind follower of anything.

[TomKat]

I think the nwo is into buying up workable spiritual tech. Also any religion that can be downgraded into manipulating the people of this planet. This includes the big 3 religions. I don't know about Buddhism, but I have heard that the Dali Lama sold out long ago too.

Raniere attracted some Bronfmans, while Scientology attracted some Khashoggis. Both families have been associated with the mafia. Supposedly the CIA was very interested in cults in connection with mind control.

[The Moss Trooper]

Entropy is a part of the Natural order, after all.

[Ed Dawson]

Dane wrote:
"This is the mechanism through which heinous acts may be committed by good beings. Because the being is attached to the aesthetic he goes along with the rest of what went with that aesthetic and is actually blind to the actual consequences of his actions. The end can also justify the means when one has a great enough aesthetic attached.
Thus such a thing can actually occur where persons in rousing agreement with the "aesthetic" of KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING at all COSTS then take part in purifying Scientology. They buy the idea that time is scarce, there is great danger, there isn't time for routine justice actions. They buy the idea that they can afford to make mistakes and fix them later.
. . .
In Scientology the "purify the tech" BEINGNESS that is being instilled is having the effect of separating and individuating people from all those who don't have the same beingness, WHETHER THE OTHERS ARE DELIVERING STANDARD TECH OR NOT. This arbitrary beingness that is being mocked up and demanded is one of the biggest additives in Scientology, and it is lowering duplication."

Ed:
He is correct in identifying a beingness here.
Any identity, or 'Terminal' is formed from a two part goal structure. The goal consists of a purpose or volition (a 'do') applied to achieve an end result (a 'have'). The two combined form a beingness which does the goal. In scientology jargon, rootword + endword = Terminal.

In this case the 'rootword' or basic purpose plus the 'endword' or desired result, is to keep scientology working. Yes "keeping scientology working" is itself a goal structure. Stated a bit more clearly: 'to enforce scientology standard tech'. That forms the beingness of someone enforcing it. With multiple someones all holding that beingness, they form a group mind, aka morphic field (see Rupert Sheldrake) which has an overmind entity that controls the members of its field, and attacks anyone that field doesn't like. The group mind/morphic field entity is the Thing (Hermetic magick technical word for an artificial entity) which Dane Tops spotted.
Ed

[EFO]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.one-mind-one-energy.com%2Fimages%2FxCamelot.jpg.pagespeed.ic.oIV3KzvvqG.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
An interview with 'Dane Tops':
The man who blew the
Church of Scientology wide open (http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html)