Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

[Daozen]

Lots of brainboxes here engaging in high level discourse. That's a good thing. But I noticed something: Avalonians sure like to hear themselves type. Nothing wrong with that, but one downside of excessive wordiness is that a reader's eyes will glaze over. If you don't care, so much the better... but know you are probably losing half or even more of your readership once the paragraphs get too dense.

There's an easy response to this:

Daozen I don't write for other people, I write for me. If other people don't like it I don't mind. I'll just continue being me, thanks.

Yup. OK. I am not suggesting that people write less, more that they format their posts better. I have 6 humble suggestions:

- Post a 3 sentence tl;dr at the start or end.
- Use bullet-points.
- Use sub-headings.
- Use formatting.
- Break up any paragraph longer than 10 lines with a subheading or picture.
- Make 1-3 major points per post, not 5-10.


This has been brought up at least twice by other posters or moderators, but skimming the recent threads, I still see slabs of self-indulgent ascii mucus slathered everywhere. No one is asking anyone to dumb down or dilute their writing, just be aware that many people... including me, suffer from ADHD or just boredom when faced with leaning towers of HTML.

Consider your mission, dear poster:

- To heal the world with herbs.
- To convince everyone that Politician X is the Messiah/Devil/Anti-Christ/Kalki Avatar.
- To write about the danger or beauty of capitalism.
- To help readers understand your take on the exo-political situation.

Or whatever...

Whatever you wish to do, it only takes 2 minutes to format a schpiel of word-vomit into a beautiful treatise. Twitter and Reddit became famous for a reason. The Chinese sages of old rarely wrote more than 4 lines per poem. Bible quotes are less than 2 lines, and they have endured for thousands of years.

:silent:








Some good suggestions from Krystian here:

- If you start a thread and post a link or quote or in anyway reproduce someone else’s work, preface it with some words of your own. Tell us why we may want to read or examine this material instead of just assuming it is self evident. Expect that there will be comments and questions on the material and check back to see if there is a thread. Take responsibility for your post by getting involved in the discussion and expect that you are going to do so when you submit the post.

- If you are going to submit a long post (great!) then you might want to write it first in a word processor or other program to make it easier to organize your thoughts. This would probably allow you to save them and write these posts over time.

- Understand that not everyone here has English as their first language. If you do, hold your self to a higher standard. We are blessed to have people from lots of parts of the world whose culture, language and syntax, etc. give us some very different insights as to what is going on in the world.

- Don’t just preach to the choir. Challenge people. And not just ordinary people, but challenge us Avalonians with your well thought out and well presented ideas. It is nice when people click the “thanks” button beneath my post, but it is a much higher complement when someone can add to my ideas or, the best compliment of all, challenge them in a way that makes me scratch my head and rethink what I wrote. So challenge people and expect them to politely challenge you back!

- WRITE DAMN IT!!! You have a sea of thoughts passing through your mind 24/7 and there are some pearls in that sea. There are most definitely flashes of brilliance, wisdom and insight that pass though. Put them into words, and put those words into logical sentences and paragraphs, and finally, share them with us and with the world. Our thoughts are the key to our liberation and our enlightenment, and one of yours might just be the next key to unleashing a lot of greatness on this planet.

[Flash]

Doazen: and do not use too many acronyms that the majority may not understand, without explaining them

ex:

brainboxes: do you mean intelligent people (seems quite colloquial writing to me.... not English speaking, so I had never seen it written this way)

TYVM: take your verb to you mother??? oh: très yin verbo moteur oh... you see, what does it mean???

tl;dr : what is this??? I must presume those are computer commands, yet I would not know how to operate them. Or else???

ascii mucus slathered : please explain, I thought ascii was something related to computers, and mucus well, is mucus even in French lolll. So what does it mean?

ADHD or just DGAF when faced with leaning towers of HTML.: ADHD attention deficit disorder, DGAF? no f idea what this mean, leaning towers of HTML, HTML being related to computer writing, leaning towers relaated to????

schpiel of word-vomit : word vomit I know what it means, vomit being also the a similar writing in French, but schpiel - must be German, what doe it mean?

Now, if you think of others by formatting your writings and knowing your intent before writing and therefore make their reading easier, and consequently the exchanges much richer, is it also possible to think of others who are not computer savvy or are not English acronyms savvy.

Is it possible to sit in others shoes for only a few minutes, even those outside the USA?

Thinking of others goes all the way Daozen

[Daozen]

Hoist by my own petard. I have asked writers to be more courteous to readers by being mindful of their writing. And I used too many acronyms, exhibiting discourtesy myself. The irony is not lost on me. However, Flash, my choice of word stands. I was expecting some low-intensity-indignant responses to my post. So be it. Can I not stretch out and enjoy the English language?

EDIT: I have retired DGAF, as I feel it is prejudicial to the spirit of Avalon. The rest stays carved in stone.

Here 's a quick version:

If you write too much, and don't format your post, you will lose half your readership.

I hope that one liner makes things clear.

Pleasnat chatting with you, as always.

[RunningDeer]

Post a 3 sentence tl;dr at the start or end.
I didn't know what the initials meant. Are you staying to let the poster know that it was too long so I didn't read?


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Notices/TLDR.jpg


Doazen: and do not use too many acronyms that the majority may not understand, without explaining them

tl;dr :what is this??? I must presume those are computer commands, yet I would not know how to operate them. Or else???

Thanks, Flash. I hadn't gotten to your post because I was busy Googling letters. Good points. :thumbsup:

[Daozen]

Post a 3 sentence tl;dr at the start or end.
I didn't know what the initials meant. Are you staying to let the poster know that it was too long so I didn't read?


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Notices/TLDR.jpg

No, it's from Reddit. The old meaning was the wall of type was too long. It has come to mean summary, recently. My mistake for not explaining it:

It means a 3 sentence summary of your post/OP, so readers can decide if they want to read it or not.

[Bill Ryan]

tl;dr : what is this???

It stands for (in English! :) ): Too Long; Didn't Read.

***
I'd also strongly add:


break up paragraphs to not be more than 5-6 lines on a full screen. 2-3 lines is better.

[Tam]

Meh...I mostly don't agree with this.

There are several points to be made.

Ironically, this is going to be a long post, but here goes.

Firstly, not everyone is able to be articulate to the degree that they can be concise yet still maintain eloquence.

For some, it's because English is not their native language (such as Flash). For others, it's because they never had a full-bodied, quality formal education, so their more limited vocabulary requires them to take more time to make a point.

My boyfriend is like this, for example. He was raised in rural Texas, so his English vocabulary is pretty limited because public schools in Texas are garbage. He also isn't a native English speaker; his mother tongue is Portuguese, in which his vocabulary is far better. So, he speaks simply, plainly. His repertoire of words isn't very advanced by any stretch of the imagination.

Early in the relationship, this drove me crazy. Half the words I would use, he didn't fully understand. Half the words he would use, he would use incorrectly. As someone who has a pretty decent handle on the English language, it was frustrating more than once. Yet he taught me such an important lesson: to listen, and to be patient.

If you were to judge him based off of the sophistication of his vocabulary, you'd think him to be of totally average intelligence. Yet he is by no means someone you should dismiss. When you listen to him, and yes, it does require some patience, and often a fair amount of reading between the lines, he often has something truly intelligent to say. He just doesn't make it sound pretty. I'm sure a lot of people on Avalon on this way. And all too often, they may get written off because their wording isn't stellar.

Then, of course, there's the matter that some people just have trouble with articulating their thoughts, and as such, tend to speak/write in a stream-of-consciousness sort of way.

Is it fair to hold back these kinds of people, just because sometimes, a post is long? I don't think it is.

Look, I understand I may be the last person that should be saying this. I'm sure some members have noticed that my posts are rarely leagues away from being short. It's always been a concern of mine that I would lose people with my long-a** posts, but at the end of the day, I continue to make posts like the ones I do because I feel that if I were to shorten them, I would be abridging them and thus have them be incomplete.

I know I am very wordy, and I often ramble. It was never because I liked to hear myself type. I personally make long posts for several reasons:

- To get all my points across (there are always many)
- To cover all bases, counterpoints, arguments, etc.
- To keep things efficient (by avoiding having to post several times in a thread)
- To foster discussion

Maybe it's just my pretty severe ADD that makes me ramble on and on and on. It's entirely possible. But to enforce rules to keep posts short will do more harm than good, in my opinion.

While it is absolutely crucial to properly format long posts, I don't think we should avoid them. It contributes to the epidemic of short memory and short attention spans we as a society seem to be suffering from. I know this from first hand experience. I don't know if my ADD was innate or created by growing up in the Information Age, but it is very hard for me to read long articles or watch lengthy videos, unless I am keenly interested in it.

By reducing all posts to bite-sized chunks, we would be doing a disservice to this forum, I think. I disagree with your assessment that brevity is best. Reddit and twitter and the like are short not because they aim to capture the poetic beauty of a handful of sentences, but to dumb people down by reducing their patience and attention spans tremendously. I myself have fallen victim to this; I find it exceedingly difficult to focus in everyday life, and zone out regularly, especially when reading or watching something longer than 15 minutes.

Short answer type discussions are abundant online. Reddit is a perfect example. There's benefit in that, as you mentioned, but also harm. Let's keep Avalon its own thing.

Of course, as with all things in life, there's a spectrum to this, and we need to maintain balance. I'm not saying there aren't people on here, perhaps myself on many occasions, that got a bit too long-winded.

But I wouldn't say it's gotten to be a full-blown problem yet. We have bigger issues than that, as far as I'm concerned.

I think formatting things the way you suggest would largely serve to dumb things down. Bullet points can easily veer into the pedestrian when used to formulate entire arguments at a time.

The TL;DR thing isn't a bad idea though. I'll start incorporating them into my posts. I'm sure some would benefit from them, and even just one person is worth it. I don't think we should limit to 3 sentences. That seems completely arbitrary and inhibitive.

Now, since some people seem to be having trouble with the terms Daozen used, here's a list of "translations":

TYVM= Thank you very much

Brainbox = Slang term used to describe a smart person. Can be used in a derogatory way. Brainboxes are a specific kind of smart person. Usually the nerdy, well-read, sometimes know-it-all types.

TL;DR = Too Long ; Didn't Read. It's already been defined, but I'd like to add that it doesn't have any specific requirements or limitations, but instead is meant to be a summary/nutshell of a long post. Whether you're too lazy or too busy, TL:DRs are useful.

ascii mucus slathered : I actually have no idea what this means.

DGAF = Don't Give A F*ck. Also seen as IDGAF ( I don't give a f*ck).

As for the leaning towers bit, Flash, picture a game of Jenga (this is Jenga: https://clearaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/shutterstock_160902620.jpg). When the tower gets too tall, it topples over.

This is the sort of metaphor Daozen was going for.

Lastly, for spiel (there's actually no ch), it is a German word used as slang in English, to describe a sort of speech or monologue, usually one that's either way too long or full of ego.

Dictionary.com defines it as the following:

"a usually high-flown talk or speech, especially for the purpose of luring people to a movie, a sale, etc.; pitch."

Calling something a spiel is usually not a good thing.

Oh, by the way, here's a resource I think some of you old, out-of-touch Avalonians might find useful :p

https://www.urbandictionary.com/

It's a user-based dictionary for slang of all kinds. If you don't know a word that can't be found in the dictionary, chances are someone out there put a definition of it here. Since it's collaborative, not every definition is 100% accurate, but for things you'd hear here, I'd say it's generally safe.

A word of warning: this place is definitely NSFW (Not Safe For Work. Another internet slang term used to describe anything that would be rated R...that is to say, content like sex and violence. Usually it's sex/nudity though. For violence and gore, NSFL is used. NSFL= Not Safe For Life. Yeah, I don't think that term makes sense either).

If you're the blushing flower, easily-offended type, I wouldn't come here. This website has absolutely no filter, and can be very raunchy and crass.

For some of us, raunchy and crass isn't a problem, but for others, well, this place is guaranteed to ruffle your feathers at some point.

Hit the 'random' button at your own risk. While it will often end in a chuckle, you can find out things that will be burned in your mind forever.

But seriously, I wouldn't be too scared of this place. It's usually fine. Just don't hit the random button if you're the more sheltered type.


Finally, I'd like to let Daozen know that this is by no means a personal attack: I have ADD/ADHD myself, so I understand fully how hard it is. I just fundamentally (and amicably!) disagree with you :)


Aaaand I'm done!

[Daozen]

Ironically, this is going to be a long post, but here goes.


Beautiful! hall o fame material, right there.

Thanks for putting your point across.

[KiwiElf]

Indigris, you write very "conversationally" - easy to read (even if it's a long-er post) - a Copywriter would love you! ;) :thumbsup:

[Michi]

I would like to add one point which unnecessarily makes a post very long:
To quote an entire (long) posting.

Better would be to just quote the parts of a post one wants to elaborate on.

One just goes back to the quoted text and deletes excessive text.

[Baby Steps]

Ironically, this is going to be a long post, but here goes.


Beautiful! hall o fame material, right there.

Thanks for putting your point across.

But for the long posters- those wonderful wordsmiths- do not be discouraged. People may be dipping into what you write, and benefiting from it, but personally I would not put a 'thanks' unless I had done the courtesy of fully reading and understanding the post. A skimming reader wants to get the gist - so put the gist in clear headers, than the detail in chunks underneath.

[Joe from the Carolinas]

When I see long posts with links and quotes, I have a tough time figuring out the difference between a quote, and a member’s original thoughts on the subject.

[Valerie Villars]

I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy. ;)

There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.

[Flash]

To all

First for Indigris, thank you very much for the definitions you gave me of all those acronyms and words I do not catch in the given context. You are the only one who took the time to do this, not even the creators of those did it.

I had started to write this post on my cell and gave up, god forbid, many more typing errors on a phone and too many corrections to do. And from what I read here, one has to be perfect in Shakespeare languagae.

To tell the whole truth, I am frankly tired of having to constantly look in the dictionary or having to google acronyms and colloquials and idiosyncrasies at times.

But, I am mostly tired of what seems to me the lack of understanding, what am I saying, not even understanding, the lack of caring for anything (not anybody because at this point we must be looked upon as things) else than Anglo Saxons.

Believe me, ADHD is nothing when writing or reading if you master the language. There are much worst handicaps - and those who have them are not idiots just because they could not write their thoughts properly.
From what I gather here, this is what most members would think, dealing with idiots because they do not master English.

I see no empathy, no efforts to understand, only demands that foreigners and dylsexics - dysphasics - other neurological disorder cannot comply with.

Formatting is one thing, but even that, our younger ones have not learn to do it - we have to teach it. But I think most here would not have enough empathy and concern to tolerate any deviant.

Believe me, it is much easier to write in one's mothertongue, and to restrict oneself to one mothertongue forums and readings, but this will not construct an open world, on the contrary.

For God sake, I am university educated, I have taught different management and customer related courses to adults a large part of my life, and here, I feel like the reject because of language intolerance or lack of efforts thinking of others. The contrary to my own teachings.

Yes it is a rant

But if over and above the intelligent content one has to bring, I have to do it in a masterfull English way, you lose me.

If I have to do a master degree by being on Avalon, It will be much more profitable to go do a real master degree. WRiting on avalon for non anglo-saxons, for handicaped people or for regular English speaking folks has to be fun, with a little thoughts for others. Otherwise, it is not worth it.

Bill, you lived in Africa, now in South America, had Canadian parents and are British. How come this is not taken into account? Try to write in Spanish, and you will see. EAsy to understand that a break has to be given..

Same for Americans, open your mental doors (and yes, Joe, you do write French, so I am not adressing you about these anymore).

When I read all the post here I am p ss ed. It is enough to discourage many many non English writers and about all those with some language handicaps.

And I am not f ing revising this post, get what you can.

-----

I should open a post with "Overly zealous avalonians", most may fit in it.

[Flash]

I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy. ;)

There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.

I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.

[Foxie Loxie]

Wonderful, Flash!! :ROFL: It's the "spirit" of the thing that matters as we are trying to "connect" with other human beings. We all are able to learn from experiences that others have had. Let me just say; it took me a long time to learn what IMO & IMHO meant! I even had to ask what CGI meant....but maybe that's just because I'm of the Older Generation! :waving:

[Baby Steps]

I should open a post with "Overly zealous avalonians", most may fit in it.

Dear Flash,
really- you convey yourself very well - the posts are well written and NOT verbose- long may you continue. It is great that there are non English as a first language people here who take the time to contribute.
Your passion and the emotion you convey so well are great! (apart from the bits about Russia)

Do not stop...

[Hervé]

Beside some sort of unhindered mastery of the language, there is a more basic, underlying mastery which needs to be somewhat achieved in order to reach a maximum number of readers with one's point -- not lose them -- and that's achieving some mastery of the medium we are all here using: computers.

That, because if one wants to refine one's presentation and display of one's post, one needs to be able to give it a pleasant, aesthetic, appealing look instead of the leaning tower of Pisa full of texts and videos as visiting "tourists" (due to a non-activation of the "Word/Line Wrap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_wrap_and_word_wrap)" function of the text editor being used).

Here is a generic example of the kind of conversation tech supports run into:
I ran into some basic lacunae when, for example, explaining something like:
"... simple, you just do it like you would do a copy-paste..."

...

"... right... how do I do a copy-paste?"

"Well, you highlight the text you want to transfer, right click on the highlighted part..."

...

"... sure... ... ... how do I highlight a #&%$ text?!" ...

... ... ...
So, for those finding themselves in the above situation, I would suggest to start with something like: Basic Computer Skills (http://www.ctdlc.org/remediation/).

Only then can one address "Formatting" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting) and typography conventions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicago_Manual_of_Style) per se...

Regarding the chapter of quoted material, I would suggest the following:
Avoid using the "Quotation" feature for whole articles because it italicises the whole text and, beside making originally italicised item disappear, it makes it more difficult to read for disturbed eyes as well as making the articles look like walls of hieroglyphics and, therefore, inevitably end up in the TL;DR waste basket.

One way to distinguish the article from one's own thoughts or others' comments is to use separators like:


--------------------------------------

=============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

etc...


As Bill keeps suggesting, take your time, read and reread what you type... does it make sense? Could some reader construe the text in any other way? Etc...

Happy typing all...

[Bill Ryan]

Bill, you lived in Africa, now in South America, had Canadian parents and are British. How come this is not taken into account? Try to write in Spanish, and you will see. EAsy to understand that a break has to be given.

Hey, Flash! :heart:

No-one is criticizing you here. Not one tiny bit. Certainly not me. You write beautifully, and I love it. I wrote here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102161-Spelling-Prompts&p=1215871&viewfull=1#post1215871), a month ago:



I wish to express my deep admiration and appreciation of all those here who are not native English speakers.

Yes, truly. :star:

In fact — and I do hope everyone understands this quip! — I REALLY REALLY enjoy reading Flash's posts. (For newer members: Flash lives in Montreal, and French is her first language.) They're thoughtful and beautifully crafted, and sometimes very slightly quirky. :heart: Her heart and meaning invariably shine through brightly.

It's like listening to a lovely accent. If they suddenly became flawlessly perfect... I'd feel something was lost in translation.

:)

[Praxis]

When I see long posts with links and quotes, I have a tough time figuring out the difference between a quote, and a member’s original thoughts on the subject.

I want to second this the most. I basically ignore some peoples posts because of this exact thing. I found it too hard to tell when they are just copypasta or giving two cents.

[Kryztian]

Thanks Daozen, for putting out some guidelines on how we can all write better posts. My only difference with you is that for me, the problem is not the long posts but the short ones. My suggestions to add to your list:


If you start a thread and post a link or quote or in anyway reproduce someone else’s work, preface it with some words of your own. Tell us why we may want to read or examine this material instead of just assuming it is self evident. Expect that there will be comments and questions on the material and check back to see if there is a thread. Take responsibility for your post by getting involved in the discussion and expect that you are going to do so when you submit the post.

If you are going to submit a long post (great!:thumbsup:) then you might want to write it first in a word processor or other program to make it easier to organize your thoughts. This would probably allow you to save them and write these posts over time.

Understand that not everyone here has English as their first language. If you do, hold your self to a higher standard. We are blessed to have people from lots of parts of the world whose culture, language and syntax, etc. give us some very different insights as to what is going on in the world.

Don’t just preach to the choir. Challenge people. And not just ordinary people, but challenge us Avalonians with your well thought out and well presented ideas. It is nice when people click the “thanks” button beneath my post, but it is a much higher complement when someone can add to my ideas or, the best compliment of all, challenge them in a way that makes me scratch my head and rethink what I wrote. So challenge people and expect them to politely challenge you back!

WRITE DAMN IT!!! You have a sea of thoughts passing through your mind 24/7 and there are some pearls in that sea. There are most definitely flashes of brilliance, wisdom and insight that pass though. Put them into words, and put those words into logical sentences and paragraphs, and finally, share them with us and with the world. Our thoughts are the key to our liberation and our enlightenment, and one of yours might just be the next key to unleashing a lot of greatness on this planet.

[DeDukshyn]

When I see long posts with links and quotes, I have a tough time figuring out the difference between a quote, and a member’s original thoughts on the subject.

I want to second this the most. I basically ignore some peoples posts because of this exact thing. I found it too hard to tell when they are just copypasta or giving two cents.

I agree this needs a bit more attention here. If you are the original writer, make that clear. If you are not the original writer, make that clear as well. I recall going off on Bob a little once because I was confused between what he had quoted and what was an original thought, as I didn't see a clear delineation. There was a little delineation, but not enough that my mind didn't miss it.

Many posts have a mix of original and copied text, and I think in the vein that the art of communication is trying to ensure that the reader gets the message as intended by the writer, a clear indication of what is what might really help avoid confusion, and the effort sometime needed in clearing that.

I struggle with extremely long posts and often skip them. I heard a suggestion here on PA, maybe from Bill, that it sometimes is better to break extremely large pieces of thought into several smaller posts, to make it more digestible for some.

[Tintin]

When I see long posts with links and quotes, I have a tough time figuring out the difference between a quote, and a member’s original thoughts on the subject.

I want to second this the most. I basically ignore some peoples posts because of this exact thing. I found it too hard to tell when they are just copypasta or giving two cents.

To distinguish between my commentary and, say, an article that I think has much merit to include on a particular subject I will invariably lead off the post with a small piece/view from myself, and delineate --------------- and sometimes abbreviate my name in parenthesis below my contribution and then share the article body text.

This tends to do the trick. Or at least, it should.

That I hope makes things pretty clear.

[Bill Ryan]

To distinguish between my commentary and, say, an article that I think has much merit to include on a particular subject I will invariably lead off the post with a small piece/view from myself, and delineate --------------- and sometimes abbreviate my name in parenthesis below my contribution and then share the article body text.


Better visually may be to use indents. I always use 4 of them. Like this:

***********

My intro comment.


Link (which I always emphasize with a bulletpoint)





The article.
Or maybe a quote from it.
Like this...
Closing comment, if there is one.

[Valerie Villars]

I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy. ;)

There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.

I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.

Flash, I was simply offering a perspective which was in no way an attack on you or anyone. I admire your fu ck ing spirit. Really. :flower:

[Ernie Nemeth]

I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.

So many judgements even I will be leery about posting in future.

Is that the intention of this community?

[Flash]

I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.

So many judgements even I will be leery about posting in future.

Is that the intention of this community?

thank you thank you tbank you, I bow to your comment

¤=[Post Update]=¤




I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy. ;)

There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.

I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.

Flash, I was simply offering a perspective which was in no way an attack on you or anyone. I admire your fu ck ing spirit. Really. :flower:

Yes, I know, my comment about Hemignway is that nobody else than American - British above 40 understand the reference.

[Flash]

I know no one is criticising me here Bill.

My point is that I do make some efforts to correct myself when writing, I do think about it (except in this thread) before writing, and I still feel lost at times with too many acronyms, too many demands on quality of writing.

Furthermore, why but why someone like Nat'lee is not writing more? or why someone like Gaia often search content with what she means, already written in English, to help her?? Both have abilities in writing English that are so so, therefore, they are not writing much.

Not only is that difficult for them, but if you add some grammatical demands, or even some posting, to people who already are making major efforts to write or to search in the dictionnary to understand, well, you lose them.

Add to this cultural differences with not many common cultural references and it is done, gone are the members, over is their participation.

When I want to relate to geology, I refer to Hervé for easy writing on the topic and for added knowledge, I am not asked and I do not ask to know how mountains are created or how to differentiate stones and do mining.

Same with writing in English, for non anglo-saxons or for language handicaped people. You should not ask these people to master the language, in any form, period.

To me, it is the content that is important, in fact, very important. Not the ways it is written, as long as with a bit of efforts I can understand.

Believe me, we are missing quite a lot of content from a wide variety of people when we become too demanding on the communication skills, within a specific language.

Please, reread all the posts in this thread all in a row, while putting yourself in someone else's shoes, someone who cannot master English or who has language handicap.

The feeling it leaves is terrible: very demanding, incompetence of oneself, decrease self esteem (hourray, I can write in a language not mine, instead it becomes sh it, I am truly bad), questions (is it worth it - what is more important, formating and grammar or content), feeling not understood and even rejected. Discouragement.

There is even a suggestion from Hervé to take formatting courses - please, give me a break, I am here for knowledge, sharing and fun! I am not going to take any course for that!!

Why not take people as they are and help them, all of us members?? (not talking about the poor lost loonies or the troll, but talking about quite regular ordinary folks)

Ernie expressed it wonderfully in a few words.

Quand ça devient trop difficile, trop exigent, je fuis, tout comme les autres. Pas compliqué non?



Bill, you lived in Africa, now in South America, had Canadian parents and are British. How come this is not taken into account? Try to write in Spanish, and you will see. EAsy to understand that a break has to be given.

Hey, Flash! :heart:

No-one is criticizing you here. Not one tiny bit. Certainly not me. You write beautifully, and I love it. I wrote here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102161-Spelling-Prompts&p=1215871&viewfull=1#post1215871), a month ago:



I wish to express my deep admiration and appreciation of all those here who are not native English speakers.

Yes, truly. :star:

In fact — and I do hope everyone understands this quip! — I REALLY REALLY enjoy reading Flash's posts. (For newer members: Flash lives in Montreal, and French is her first language.) They're thoughtful and beautifully crafted, and sometimes very slightly quirky. :heart: Her heart and meaning invariably shine through brightly.

It's like listening to a lovely accent. If they suddenly became flawlessly perfect... I'd feel something was lost in translation.

:)

[Kryztian]

I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.


I think most of the advice offered here is to help people communicate more effectively and to write better posts. There are all types of writing here, from the okay to the good to the really great. I think we are just trying to encourage people to create more of the great and less of the okay. I would hate to discourage people from writing at all. And the ones who are writing truly great stuff, well, i would like to challenge them to do even better too.

[Valerie Villars]

I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.

So many judgements even I will be leery about posting in future.

Is that the intention of this community?

thank you thank you tbank you, I bow to your comment

¤=[Post Update]=¤




I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy. ;)

There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.

I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.

Flash, I was simply offering a perspective which was in no way an attack on you or anyone. I admire your fu ck ing spirit. Really. :flower:

Yes, I know, my comment about Hemignway is that nobody else than American - British above 40 understand the reference.

Flash, when I see your name, I always read your posts. That's the truth. And I don't do that for everyone. If I landed in Montreal, I'd be in big trouble. I know a smattering of Spanish and that's it. Ironically, my great-grandparents spoke french and english. However, in that day and time (early 1900's) english was pushed in America as THE language to communicate with.

I believe America was very wrong not to educate people bi-lingually at the very least. Language is the stuff of God, in my opinion, and you are way ahead of me in that department.

[Bill Ryan]

Please, reread all the posts in this thread all in a row, while putting yourself in someone else's shoes, someone who cannot master English or who has language handicap.

Flash — and everyone! :heart:

This thread isn't about writing. It's about formatting.

The two are quite different! Some of the advice given here might be helpful to someone writing on a forum in French, or Bulgarian, or Chinese.

And it's not about criticism, of anyone. It's about advice, and ideas, and feedback. It's really a kind of little seminar about how best to format one's posts to make them as readable as possible. And that's in EVERYONE's interests. We're just talking about presentation.

Your posts are perfect as they are, Flash. :star: There's nothing to change. Some of the important points made so far in the thread apply to others who (e.g.) sometimes write in big blocks of unbroken text, or confuse readers by not quoting properly.

It's really just a bunch of helpful tips. That's all. :bearhug:

[Orph]

Edited my post. Bill's post above says similar to what I was saying.

Never mind
:sun:

[KiwiElf]

From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.

Some of the biggest ad agencies (who should know better from a design angle), began duplicating the trend in wordy ads; magazines started doing it with articles, and possibly, that lack of formatting translated over to the general public as, "well if the experts can do it, we can too" mentality.

I had to point out to my business partner at the time, who is a brilliant designer btw, NOT to do it. His excuse, "ahh but everyone else is doing it; it's the new look!". (Not helped by designers who justify it with, "It's good to be different,"). My response to that was, "No, it's just lazy! The whole idea of indenting or blocking paragraphs is making the [paragraph] breaks easy to find!"

*SIGH* - He STILL does it - it's now become a habit, but words were never really his thing! ;)

Another trend which still remains today, is overly long/width lines of text.

It can't really be avoided in here, but most people have difficulty reading a line of text that is longer than 72 characters wide (including spaces).

[AutumnW]

It's nice, it's nice, it's nice to be concise.

[ThePythonicCow]

break up paragraphs to not be more than 5-6 lines on a full screen. 2-3 lines is better.

There is one rather odd exception to this rule that I allow myself sometimes.

If I have some long and tedious explanation for some point, in the middle of what I hope are some more interesting, and brief, points, I might write that long explanation in a single, large, paragraph.

Then only those who are really bored, or really intrigued by my thoughts, bother to read that long paragraph.

The rest, the happy majority, will easily skip past that long paragraph, perhaps to see if I wrote anything of interest in the remaining, shorter, paragraphs.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?

[KiwiElf]

From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?

"Tabbed" text, ie the Tab key = "indented". ;)

A "blocked" paragraph = insert a hard "return" (2 x taps on the Return key after a paragraph), leaves a blank line between each paragraph (looks like this):

Without either, we just get a "wall" of text; everything lines up flush left with no easily-discernible paragraph breaks, (it's pretty ugly, & difficult to read, especially a very long article! - ie my original post (above), is "blocked".

With the hard returns removed & no indenting (ie, non-blocked/non-tabbed), it looks like this):

--------------------
From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
Some of the biggest ad agencies (who should know better from a design angle), began duplicating the trend in wordy ads; magazines started doing it with articles, and possibly, that lack of formatting translated over to the general public as, "well if the experts can do it, we can too" mentality.
I had to point out to my business partner at the time, who is a brilliant designer btw, NOT to do it. His excuse, "ahh but everyone else is doing it; it's the new look!". (Not helped by designers who justify it with, "It's good to be different,"). My response to that was, "No, it's just lazy! The whole idea of indenting or blocking paragraphs is making the [paragraph] breaks easy to find!"
*SIGH* - He STILL does it - it's now become a habit, but words were never really his thing! ;)
Another trend which still remains today, is overly long/width lines of text.
It can't really be avoided in here, but most people have difficulty reading a line of text that is longer than 72 characters wide (including spaces).
--------------------

[RunningDeer]

What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?

The standard practice for the manual typewriter was to return the carriage twice to create space between paragraphs and use the tab key for each paragraph. The tab was adjusted to five spaces, but you could change it like the sample below; either hit the tab twice or adjust the tab to 10 spaces. For formal business letters, some elected to use the block print method which there were no paragraph indentations.

Word processors come with a variety of templates similar to what was used in the 1900’s for business, academics and the less formal writing styles.

When I was in high school, it was a big deal when the business department upgraded to the electric typewriter. It took some getting use to from pounding the manual keys to a light touch, automatic return carriage and quicker typing speeds.


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Fantasy_Fun/tab-key2.jpg

[KiwiElf]

Even worse is setting everything to "flush right"... (sometimes it works depending on how it's used, ie, if you're running text around a strange shape or picture or object... this is usually reserved for magazine spreads or captions with relatively short column widths... not good in here) ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
Some of the biggest ad agencies (who should know better from a design angle), began duplicating the trend in wordy ads; magazines started doing it with articles, and possibly, that lack of formatting translated over to the general public as, "well if the experts can do it, we can too" mentality.
I had to point out to my business partner at the time, who is a brilliant designer btw, NOT to do it. His excuse, "ahh but everyone else is doing it; it's the new look!". (Not helped by designers who justify it with, "It's good to be different,"). My response to that was, "No, it's just lazy! The whole idea of indenting or blocking paragraphs is making the [paragraph] breaks easy to find!"
*SIGH* - He STILL does it - it's now become a habit, but words were never really his thing! ;)
Another trend which still remains today, is overly long/width lines of text.
It can't really be avoided in here, but most people have difficulty reading a line of text that is longer than 72 characters wide (including spaces).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL CAPITALS is another "no no" for entire paragraphs/posts... (except for really short sentences, headlines, subheads, etc... and comic books) ;)

And then there's emphasis, like using bold or italic or coloured type, size, etc ...

This forum has some very good tools to do this, but beware... the trick is knowing when and how;

"If you emphasize everything, then nothing is emphasized"

It's a "Design 101" thing - it can get complicated... simple is best, less is more :bigsmile:

[Daozen]

I said a few times: In the title, and in the OP, that if people wanted to write a lot, that's their business. I emphasized that formatting is key. Long posts look good if you just format them correctly. Granted, I was somewhat polarizing in my delivery. Why? Because the Avalon wall o' type issue has been brought up a couple of times, and some writers are as verbose and badly formatted as ever. So I figured I would gently turn up the heat. It is your right to be wordy. It's my right to comment on it. You stepped in this thread of your own volition, grasshopper.

Now look at the stakes:

I am here, like Princess Leia, on a mission of mercy. I have limited time on Earth. I have even more limited time on Project Avalon. One of my aims is to advance the subject of healing and human health as far as I possibly can, while I am on Earth. Many of you have the same goal. We have already built a fantastic healing archive, and it will only get better. I am going to be 90 one day. I want to be as healthy as possible when I am that age. As others have mentioned, true anti-aging technology is already coming out. It will take a lot of work to parse through all that data.

*

My posts must be formatted as well as they can, so I can draw the best contributors to my threads. Second, I want to write clearly and concisely, to benefit the many lurkers who read these fora. Do I want a young person to lose out on a heart disease cure because I am too lazy to format my writing?

No.

Likewise, if I write about water technology or farming, I have to make sure my posts are accesible and clear. I am a mortal. My future is stake. I cannot afford to lose anyone due to sloppy formatting. If you do not feel the pressure of the ages, more power to you, immortal wordsmith.

So write in clumps and clods if you desire, but I ain't gonna read your posts, and a ton of lurkers won't either. Now you know the stakes, you may make a free will choice.

If you spend 30 minutes writing a post, I suggest spending 90 seconds formatting it. Is that too much to ask? For some of you, yes.

*

Not formatting your posts tells me:

- You don't respect reader's time.
- You don't respect the human need for beauty and order.

If you disregard these basic universal needs, how good will your posts be? The internet offers value for money, but we could go one better and offer value for time.

[bobme]

I do not understand the need for arguement here.

Who here is the most profound expert of any language, that they may judge how another can properly write a post?

Who here is flaw free?

Sorry to offend, but my focus is not of such petty matters.

And here I am, replying.

[ThePythonicCow]

What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?

I don't know what the technical term for it is, Paul, but without "tabbed" text, ie the Tab key (I should have said, "indented"), many people will "block" their paragraphs, ie, insert a hard "return" (2 x taps on the Return key after a paragraph), the way I formatted that post. It leaves a blank line between each paragraph (like this):

Without either, we just get a "wall" of text, like this (it's pretty ugly, & difficult to read, especially a very long article!):
Ah - I think I finally parsed your comment :)


As RunningDeer illustrated, one can distinguish paragraphs a couple of ways:

Put an extra blank line between each paragraph.
Indent the first line of each paragraph a few spaces.

If you do neither, you get the dreaded wall of text.

Lesson for the day: use at least one of these two ways.

Since the way that posts are formatted on forums such as Avalon, "indentation" is removed, so the second way, Indenting, doesn't work.

That means there is only one practical way to separate paragraphs in a forum such as ours, and that is with an extra blank line between paragraphs.

[KiwiElf]

Sorry Paul, I just rewrote it - (no sleep, brain not working at the time = gobbledy gook :o- RunningDeer did it much better! - Please feel free to delete BOTH of my posts #36 & 38:))

[A Voice from the Mountains]

For God sake, I am university educated, I have taught different management and customer related courses to adults a large part of my life, and here, I feel like the reject because of language intolerance or lack of efforts thinking of others. The contrary to my own teachings.

When you first learned English you no doubt had to learn a whole bunch of slang and other cultural stuff from the past. Maybe your cup has just become too full with this past stuff to make room for the rapidly-changing Internet culture. For me (and Daozen too it seems) the acronyms in the OP (original post, ie first post in the thread) are things that we can take for granted as understood by most now. Or at least we assume they are, because they are used so frequently.

I notice that many forums and other online communities have their own peculiar language too, that doesn't extend far beyond their own circles. Halfchan, goats, lobsters, LARPs, and baking bread come to mind. But stuff like tl;dr is becoming fairly universal.


When I read all the post here I am p ss ed. It is enough to discourage many many non English writers and about all those with some language handicaps.

Now imagine how the rest of us would feel if we had to take up the burden of learning to accommodate 50 different cultural styles of communication for a relatively small minority of posters. :P

Look at it this way: your frustration is a small price to pay for the "collective good" of the rest of us. ;)

[Daozen]

As Voice From The Mountains says, I was not looking to alienate anyone or come off as an uber-hip hipster with all the TLAs and FLAs I used. hahaha. I honestly thought phrases like tl;dr were well known. Having ruminated extensively on the feedback I have toned down the orginal post. I write mainly for my own amusement. Phrases like leaning towers of html are fun to write.

Look at it another way: Maybe there are advanced students of English who enjoy a little bit of slang now and then.

Now... It is spring. We should be picking buttercups and cartwheeling in meadows. If not in body, at least in spirit.

Good night Twilight Warriors!!!

[Desire]

well Daozen looks like the loooong writers win. However getting to the point is important if you are not practicing to be a writer.
I've written many adds and it is important to get to the point quickly for clarity. It also works well on posts;).

[3(C)+me]

What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?

The standard practice for the manual typewriter was to return the carriage twice to create space between paragraphs and use the tab key for each paragraph. The tab was adjusted to five spaces, but you could change it like the sample below; either hit the tab twice or adjust the tab to 10 spaces. For formal business letters, some elected to use the block print method which there were no paragraph indentations.

Word processors come with a variety of templates similar to what was used in the 1900’s for business, academics and the less formal writing styles.

When I was in high school, it was a big deal when the business department upgraded to the electric typewriter. It took some getting use to from pounding the manual keys to a light touch, automatic return carriage and quicker typing speeds.


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Fantasy_Fun/tab-key2.jpg


Thank you Paula, I tend to be a visual person, so now I get it......

Yes, If you do neither, you get the dreaded wall of text.

Ok onward.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

As Voice From The Mountains says, I was not looking to alienate anyone or come off as an uber-hip hipster with all the TLAs and FLAs I used. hahaha. I honestly thought phrases like tl;dr were well known.

That’s my point. Internet culture is not like reading business memos or something. I would have assumed they are well known too and I still do consider them well known. Also it would only take selecting the text, right clicking, and selecting “Search ___ for....” to figure it out in about three seconds in the case of not being familiar. Some of the internal lingo I see on other boards is more difficult to figure out and sometimes requires immersion in that particular community.

What is slang today is in the dictionary tomorrow. We don’t speak Elizabethan English anymore. The Internet will change lots of things about our use of language, and already has. Adaptation is good and natural.

[Universoul]

Reading this thread and the acronyms, KISS comes to mind. "Keep it simple stupid".

I think most can agree that there is one basic guideline that should be followed regardless of grammar or language differences: be generous in one's use of blank lines in large blocks of text.

Maybe the mods could add something to the community guidelines. Something new members must read that nicely suggests that large walls of text be broken up with blank lines. Unless there's something like that already in the sign up form.

[AutumnW]

Yes, lots of paragraph breaks and I like limited bold type. So, you know. LPB LBT.:happy dog:

[Foxie Loxie]

Running Deer...you had me laughing out loud with your typewriter explanation! :ROFL: In my H.S. class we only had 3 electric typewriters & I was afraid to even use one of them!! :pound:

[Ewan]

I opened the thread to find out what radial power meant, but then my eyes just glazed over somewhere before the end of the first paragraph. ;)

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.gifTesting, testing, 1,2,3. There’s an image spacer used to indent the paragraphs in this post. It’d be cool if there’s a way for an administrative wizard to work their magic by turning the 'tab.gif' into a smilie for those that want to indent paragraphs.


(white/almost invisible space bar added here)
http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/space-bar-white.gif

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.gif Also if possible here are three space bar images: black, grey, and white. Note above the white creates the space but appears almost colorless against the white background. It’s not uncommon for me to use the space bars. I usually center them. The beauty is they create a larger space than hitting the return key.


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/space-bar-grey.gif

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.gif Note: if the wizards can’t make the spacebars or indents into smiles, another method is type a repeating symbol such as an asterisk ************************** and change/color the asterisk to white rather than black.


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/white-them.jpg

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/space-bar-black.gif

[Ewan]

As Voice From The Mountains says, I was not looking to alienate anyone or come off as an uber-hip hipster with all the TLAs and FLAs I used. hahaha. I honestly thought phrases like tl;dr were well known.

That’s my point. Internet culture is not like reading business memos or something. I would have assumed they are well known too and I still do consider them well known. Also it would only take selecting the text, right clicking, and selecting “Search ___ for....” to figure it out in about three seconds in the case of not being familiar. Some of the internal lingo I see on other boards is more difficult to figure out and sometimes requires immersion in that particular community.

What is slang today is in the dictionary tomorrow. We don’t speak Elizabethan English anymore. The Internet will change lots of things about our use of language, and already has. Adaptation is good and natural.


I would say adaptation is a necessity for survival, so for the adaptee it is certainly good, but I don't see this (a change in linguistic norms) as an adaptation. Quite frankly I see it as a degradation. A backward step. We, as a species, are literally becoming dumber. We were not ready for (so-called) smart technology and social media. It ran away from us and got ahead.

Was it planned, merely accidental, evidence of absorbing? technolgy from elsewhere, or is it an agenda?

Given the research, with frequently less than ethical methods, into human psycholgy and the brain carried out in the preceding decades it is not too difficult to imagine some of this is actually planned. Admittedly only in the minds of disfunctional sociopaths - for no rational, aware, human would desire to create such a situation.

As the human capacity for rational thought degrades and the capacity for AI to operate with increasing lucidity? improves we are on a very dangerous downward spiral.

two words above, italicised and with question marks immediately following, indicate uncertaintly over the choice of word; apologies.

[RunningDeer]

As Voice From The Mountains says, I was not looking to alienate anyone or come off as an uber-hip hipster with all the TLAs and FLAs I used. hahaha. I honestly thought phrases like tl;dr were well known. Having ruminated extensively on the feedback I have toned down the orginal post. I write mainly for my own amusement. Phrases like leaning towers of html are fun to write.

Look at it another way: Maybe there are advanced students of English who enjoy a little bit of slang now and then.

Now... It is spring. We should be picking buttercups and cartwheeling in meadows. If not in body, at least in spirit.

Good night Twilight Warriors!!!
Speaking for this Twilight Warrior…

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.gifIn the OP, I understood the web jargon such as 'HTML', because up until several years ago I had a small website designed business on the side. I created it before templates were available. Which meant I learned how to write code and custom designed sites.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.gifSo while people were busy with ‘speaking in internet acronyms’, joining forums, snapchat, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc., I was busy with a full time profession, continuing with higher education, a side business and all the rest of what life brings.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/check-this.gif
This Twilight Warrior has got a lotta light left. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/laugh-pound.gif

PS I agree with a lot of the formatting suggestions. Good thread.

[Michi]

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" is an English-language pangram—a sentence that contains all of the letters of the alphabet. It is commonly used for touch-typing practice, testing typewriters and computer keyboards, displaying examples of fonts, and other applications involving text where the use of all letters in the alphabet is desired. Owing to its brevity and coherence, it has become widely known.

There is also another text used in typesetting as a placeholder:


Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum

:happythumbsup:
:focus:

[RunningDeer]

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" is an English-language pangram—a sentence that contains all of the letters of the alphabet. It is commonly used for touch-typing practice, testing typewriters and computer keyboards, displaying examples of fonts, and other applications involving text where the use of all letters in the alphabet is desired. Owing to its brevity and coherence, it has become widely known.

There is also another text used in typesetting as a placeholder:


Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum

:happythumbsup:
:focus:

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/write.gif Thanks, devplan. My educated guess-ta-mation is the forum software is limited in that respect.

[Hervé]

[...]It’d be cool if there’s a way for an administrative wizard to work their magic by turning the 'tab.jpg' into a smilie for those that want to indent paragraphs.
[...]
Right, it'd be cool indeed, but, before getting into complications, one could have a hand at these:


[...]
One way to distinguish the article from one's own thoughts or others' comments is to use separators like:


--------------------------------------

=============================

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

etc...

[RunningDeer]

Right, it'd be cool indeed, but, before getting into complications, one could have a hand at these:

--------------------------------------
=============================
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My goal was to provide options for those interested. They aren't complicated to me. But like ‘speaking in internet acronyms’ is no biggie for some, this is second nature to me.

I've used your method, or as I explained above, color the black symbols white: &&&&&&&&&&&


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/white-them.jpg

As for the paragraph indention, it's an image that's approximately 7ish spaces. If turned into a smilie, folks click it and it creates an automatic indention. I'm cool if no one is interested. I'll still use the graphic even if it's not turned into a smilie.

[KiwiElf]

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" is an English-language pangram—a sentence that contains all of the letters of the alphabet. It is commonly used for touch-typing practice, testing typewriters and computer keyboards, displaying examples of fonts, and other applications involving text where the use of all letters in the alphabet is desired. Owing to its brevity and coherence, it has become widely known.

There is also another text used in typesetting as a placeholder:


Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum

:happythumbsup:
:focus:

Hehe... brings back some memories ;) ... that used to be a handy plug-in feature of QuarkXpress (once the leading "desktop publishing" (page layout) program, toppled by InDesign). If the Copywriter hadn't finished writing the copy (text), you could add "greeked" gobbledy gook Latin copy to get the "look" for the design/layout and a reasonably accurate word count to fill the space until it was finalized. :))

I digress... (sorry Daozen...) :bearhug:

:focus:

[Hervé]

[...]It’d be cool if there’s a way for an administrative wizard to work their magic by turning the 'tab.jpg' into a smilie for those that want to indent paragraphs.
[...]
[...]



Right, it'd be cool indeed, but, before getting into complications, one could have a hand at these:

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


My goal was to provide options for those interested. They aren't complicated to me. But like ‘speaking in internet acronyms’ is no biggie for some, this is second nature to me.

I've used your method, or as I explained above, color the black symbols white: &&&&&&&&&&&


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/white-them.jpg

As for the paragraph indention, it's an image that's approximately 7ish spaces. If turned into a smilie, folks click it and it creates an automatic indention. I'm cool if no one is interested. I'll still use the graphic even if it's not turned into a smilie.
Sorry RunningDeer, I mistakenly assumed you were talking to us, forum "Admins"...

One thing to keep in mind with Paula's creative solution if applied by anyone on this here forum is that such separators will be counted as one of the "9 (nine) Pictures/videos/smilies/emojis limit in a post.

Happy page-layouts, all :)

[RunningDeer]

Sorry RunningDeer, I mistakenly assumed you were talking to us, forum "Admins"...

One thing to keep in mind with Paula's creative solution if applied by anyone on this here forum is that such separators will be counted as one of the "9 (nine) Pictures/videos/smilies/emojis limit in a post.

Happy page-layouts, all :)

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg The post was intended for both the forum and administration. I viewed the thread as community coming together to brainstorm and share tips.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpgI forgot that each time one uses a paragraph indention gif/smilie, it’d count towards the nine limit. Thanks for the reminder, Hervé. :wave:

[Ernie Nemeth]

I have been thinking about what constructive and hopefully helpful hint I could add to this thread. I thought the best way I can help is to remember what I went through when learning how to write. For me, getting beyond correct spelling and grammatical errors, the greatest problems were rambling sentences and staying on topic. I found sticking to the five paragraph rule helps in this regard.

Rambling sentences often arise when I am not certain of my point or I am not clear in conveying my point. In such a case I will break the phrases into partial sentences and clarify my thrust as if reading bullet points, fleshing out each phrase into a sentence.

But the most irksome for me was never getting back to the original idea. My posts still often continue until I reach the point that the last sentence refers back to the first in some way.

In school we were taught the five paragraph rule. The first paragraph should inform the reader of the main points about to be offered and a summary of the basic thrust of the writing. The next three paragraphs should flesh out the points being emphasized. And the final paragraph should be reserved for conclusions based on the points described and the premise.

I hope this has helped a bit. The main point is to fit the idea into a format that clearly designates a structure for or an aid to writing a more pertinent and salient post. By sticking to the five paragraph structure you get: opening statement, premise, argument, conclusion in a nice tidy package each time.

[Foxie Loxie]

Hey Ernie! Sounds like Homiletics!! ;)

[Daozen]

5 paragraphs seems about right. There's also the guideline: i) Tell them what you're going to say, ii) say it, iii) tell them what you've just said.

My sentences can be rambling too. I have a simple rule; less commas, more full stops. Harold Pinter and Strunk + White are good teachers:

https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/Strunks-rules

- Choose a suitable design and hold to it.
- Make the paragraph the unit of composition.
- Use the active voice.
- Put statements in positive form.
- Use definite, specific, concrete language.
- Omit needless words.
- Avoid a succession of loose sentences.
- Express coordinate ideas in similar form.
- Keep related words together.
- In summaries, keep to one tense.
- Place the emphatic words of a sentence at the end.

One of the reasons 'the bad guys' are powerful on this planet, and 'the good guys' are not as powerful, is that the bad guys respect the human need for good design, good colors, succinct phrasing and compositional balance. Look at adverts. Whether you like the brands or not, Porsche and Benetton adverts are high art. What if more freedom-oriented people climbed down off their horses and respected the physical laws of this world. We are creatures made of flesh. We need to eat 2-3 meals a day, and drink 3-4 liters of water. This is non-negotiable. Likewise, the human need for clarity and balance is also borderline non-negotiable.

I've worked part time/studied programming for the last 3 years. I can't tell you the amount of talented programmers I've seen who build an app/website and can't get any users. Why? Because they can't choose good colors, make good design or write good copy. These guys spend 6 months burning the midnight oil, building a huge corporate SaaS (software as a service) site or Android app. But their design is terrible. So no users, and thousands of man hours down the drain. I honestly think there's a type of arrogance there. These guys are highly paid. One was on $100-$300 per hour. They've got cash, but are too proud to hire a designer/UX expert to give them a one hour session telling them how to improve their site. They call it engineer's disease.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812975

[RunningDeer]

Harold Pinter and Strunk + White are good teachers:


free pdf - "The Elements of Style" (http://www.jlakes.org/ch/web/The-elements-of-style.pdf)
http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Empower/The-Elements-of-Style.jpg

[A Voice from the Mountains]

I would say adaptation is a necessity for survival, so for the adaptee it is certainly good, but I don't see this (a change in linguistic norms) as an adaptation. Quite frankly I see it as a degradation. A backward step.

Every older generation says that as the new comes in, and yet we have all managed to survive.

The Romans complained about the vulgar common tongues replacing Latin. The English have constantly complained about their ever-changing language throughout history.

You can choose to be glum about all the increasing use of acronyms but it won't put the genie back into the bottle.


Was it planned, merely accidental, evidence of absorbing? technolgy from elsewhere, or is it an agenda?

I don't believe it's possible to plan popular culture in advance. You can try to manipulate it, and I believe that occurs all the time, but people have ways of seeing through manipulations and working around them. You can never fully control the thoughts and feelings of the great mass of people without some Matrix-like scenario already in place, which, btw, government "good boy points" would go a long way towards establishing, along with replacing all of your personal responsibilities with robots, making you truly a useless eater.


As the human capacity for rational thought degrades and the capacity for AI to operate with increasing lucidity? improves we are on a very dangerous downward spiral.

I'm still not sold on the idea that an increasing use of acronyms and Internet slang in general is a degradation or a downward spiral. I'm sold that you believe that, but not that it's actually true.

tl;dr, as one example, immediately jumps out to me as "hey, if you're not going to read the wall of text, at least read this brief synopsis."

Except without having to use all those damn words.

This is why we invent words (and acronyms) in the first place: to save time. Why is that a degradation again?

Rather it seems to be the entire point of this thread: brevity.

[Ewan]

I would say adaptation is a necessity for survival, so for the adaptee it is certainly good, but I don't see this (a change in linguistic norms) as an adaptation. Quite frankly I see it as a degradation. A backward step.

Every older generation says that as the new comes in, and yet we have all managed to survive.

The Romans complained about the vulgar common tongues replacing Latin. The English have constantly complained about their ever-changing language throughout history.

You can choose to be glum about all the increasing use of acronyms but it won't put the genie back into the bottle.


Was it planned, merely accidental, evidence of absorbing? technolgy from elsewhere, or is it an agenda?

I don't believe it's possible to plan popular culture in advance. You can try to manipulate it, and I believe that occurs all the time, but people have ways of seeing through manipulations and working around them. You can never fully control the thoughts and feelings of the great mass of people without some Matrix-like scenario already in place, which, btw, government "good boy points" would go a long way towards establishing, along with replacing all of your personal responsibilities with robots, making you truly a useless eater.


As the human capacity for rational thought degrades and the capacity for AI to operate with increasing lucidity? improves we are on a very dangerous downward spiral.

I'm still not sold on the idea that an increasing use of acronyms and Internet slang in general is a degradation or a downward spiral. I'm sold that you believe that, but not that it's actually true.

tl;dr, as one example, immediately jumps out to me as "hey, if you're not going to read the wall of text, at least read this brief synopsis."

Except without having to use all those damn words.

This is why we invent words (and acronyms) in the first place: to save time. Why is that a degradation again?

Rather it seems to be the entire point of this thread: brevity.

Ah, my comment regarding a degradation of the language was not in relation to acronyms, though I can see why you would draw that conclusion based on preceding posts, but rather the brevity of language employed on social media.

It seems nobody wants to take the time anymore to consider anything, and they have scant chance to when everything is presented in little more than soundbytes. How can you reach any kind of informed conclusion from a mere one sentence comment.

The discussion is reduced to a game, (think tennis, back and fore, back and fore), rather than a discourse, an exchange of ideas, opinions. Why is time so precious in such a scenario that one can't put a little effort in, is it so important to get to the next 300 tweets before bedtime?

Something like a Tower of Babel incident MkII. The communication is empty, devoid of reason, a babble of noise.

Or maybe I'm just out of touch and being left behind. :)

I looked around the train tonight on the way home, the closest 10 people to me were all heads down swiping and scrolling. Were they learning something, perhaps. Were they missing something, I think so.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

There is definitely an overload of info today, and it’s not possible to follow up on the details of every claim or idea we come across.

We might see a short tweet with a claim. That claim might lead us to a much more in depth academic paper published in a journal with all of the relevant technical details. But this paper won’t be of interest to some people who will just never read it, and really we don’t all have time to read in depth on every subject.

So we have to figure out some way to prioritize what data is most important to us and take our chances with the rest, unless/until that other info also rises to a higher priority to investigate.

In the past, things were slower, news came less often and we had more time to think about it. Not so much anymore! There’s no time to digest one thing before the next comes along.

[wnlight]

I would not like that anyone be forced to change his or her writing style in order to please Avalon members. I have always thought that one should write as s/he wishes here.

I always skip posts that include only an Internet link with no description or encouragement to pursue. And I nearly always ignore posts that are a wall of text with little or no white space. I simply think "Bless you" and move on. I assume that those posts are for the enjoyment of someone else. :-)