Too Sensitive, Too Safe

[Mike]

I'll bet your sensitivity brought you to all this stuff we discuss here. That's good.

I think it was Bill who wrote here once that an overplayed strength becomes a weakness. That's not good

Sensitivity run amok is obnoxious. Sensitivity gone unchallenged for too long becomes your master. It makes you weak, vulnerable, stagnant...

It gives one a sense of lofty self righteousness, and an excuse to avoid what I call healthy tension.

Tension challenges you. Tension breeds creativity. It creates wonderful dance partners...and obliterates echo chambers. It's the necessary friction that creates diamonds. And we do everything we can to avoid it because we don't want our feelings hurt; we justify it with all sorts of excuses. We don't want our sense of safety corrupted. We're afraid. That attitude is killing you...

...And you have a responsibility as a human being on this planet to remedy it....a responsibility to yourself and everyone you share the planet with.

Most people associate tyranny with danger. But I assure you, you can be tyrannically safe too! You can be tyrannically sensitive!. The results are the same...they just arrive through a different method.

Life isn't safe. And any attempt to overly protect yourself from all that stuff that makes you uncomfortable will only draw it to your front door faster and with more force.

I have a few suggestions:

- Is there a poster here that makes you uncomfortable? Read their posts. Unblock them,

- Is there a movie that frightens you? Makes you uneasy? Watch it.

- That violent video on yahoo news, the one where the teenage kids jump and beat up the helpless girl...watch it.

...and so on.

This isn't about misguided masochism, it's about getting over your fears. It's about eradicating this disease of over-sensitivity, this disease of *safety* Life is not safe. You will not get out of it alive.

Some people call it integrating the shadow. To me it's a realization that we are all capable of all those things we are afraid of; it's about exposing yourself to this stuff in order to inoculate yourself against it.

I have a friend whose cousin brought him around when he was little and made him fight the neighborhood kids. And if he lost, or even worse, cried, he'd smack him around a little afterwards. He quickly got over the fear of fighting the neighborhood kids because he was much more afraid of facing his cousin afterwards if he lost! Today he is fearless. Utterly fearless. And it has served him well! He's 34 years old now, and he's told me many times that he's glad his cousin did what he did, and he wouldn't change a thing. I can't say I recommend his cousins' methods, but you can't argue with the result.

My favorite writer, Charles Bukowski, often called his sadistic, abusive father "a great literary teacher". He said his father "beat all the pretense out of him". It shaped his iconic style, because, as he said, it made him "say what he really means"

Another friend of mine is quite soft. He avoids certain movies, songs, tv shows, topics, you name it..like the plague. He frequently speaks of "bad energy". I understand avoiding things you don't like, but if they actually frighten you to the point of anxiety, you need to face them. This guy will get practically hysterical if he's forced into any situation that makes him mildly uncomfortable. He's spent his whole life strategically avoiding these things; He's been too sensitive, too safe...and now, having not allowed himself some exposure to these things to, in effect, inoculate himself, he has truly left himself vulnerable. He's trapped himself in an emotional and intellectual bubble...

...and I fear we do that here too. Not just on Avalon, but the so called alternative media as a whole.

If you do not train yourself to temper your sensitivity and fears and need for excessive safety, the world will do it for you eventually...only 100x harsher

Do not hide from your fears; seek them out. Accept that tension, and use it! If you use it right it will be your best friend.

Has this post made you uncomfortable? Good, I'm glad!:)

[Ewan]

:clapping:

edit:

I realise that's an unusually brief reply from me, so I added some text too.

edit2:

Ok, I'll add something more serious. I used to actively avoid confrontation, or more specifically, speaking out when something was wrong. Some switch was thrown inside me somewhere upon awakening, it was no conscious decision to be more outspoken. It just happened, surprisingly people stop and listen and on more than one occasion I have been later, privately, thanked for saying something.

I still have fears. I hate slugs, they really creep me out for some reason, but I force myself to pick them up by the fingers and collect them in a jar. When I have gathered all I can find from the garden I get into the car and drive a mile into the countryside and deposit them in some hedgerow, (secretly hoping they head out into the road rather than the open fields beyond :evil: ).

edit 3:

I guess the opposite is being totally insensitive.
Don't we all have a natural dislike for someone who speaks with zero awareness of what they say?

[Michelle Marie]

I've observed parents over-protecting children, and knew the kids would someday have to face the "real world" and would not be so protected. However, there is wisdom in discrimination as we each exercise our own free will choice.

It's natural to gravitate towards what resonates and go away from what doesn't or what feels harmful to your overall well-being.

Sometimes sensitivity is misunderstood, even by the sensitive person. We need an awareness--a translator-- to read the information in the energy. Feelings hold intelligent information. If they are not denied, but contemplated, wisdom and direct information that is applicable to discern best decisions arise.

At least, that's my perspective (and experience).

MM :)

[Mike]

:clapping:

edit:

I realise that's an unusually brief reply from me, so I added some text too.

edit2:

Ok, I'll add something more serious. I used to actively avoid confrontation, or more specifically, speaking out when something was wrong. Some switch was thrown inside me somewhere upon awakening, it was no conscious decision to be more outspoken. It just happened, surprisingly people stop and listen and on more than one occasion I have been later, privately, thanked for saying something.

I still have fears. I hate slugs, they really creep me out for some reason, but I force myself to pick them up by the fingers and collect them in a jar. When I have gathered all I can find from the garden I get into the car and drive a mile into the countryside and deposit them in some hedgerow, (secretly hoping they head out into the road rather than the open fields beyond :evil: ).

edit 3:

I guess the opposite is being totally insensitive.
Don't we all have a natural dislike for someone who speaks with zero awareness of what they say?



Thanks Ewan! ( And I hate slugs too)

Confrontation is never fun, but it can be rewarding...especially if it took courage to do the confronting. This leads to self respect. Self respect leads to respect of others. It leads to many things, growth being one. Growth isn't always fun or agreeable. It can be tense, uncomfortable. Which is why i always like to say, get comfortable with the uncomfortable.

But confrontation with the self is the most important of all, and often requires the most courage. If we cant confront ourselves, we can't confront others when it's required. That's where it starts, in my humble opinion

[Mike]

I've observed parents over-protecting children, and knew the kids would someday have to face the "real world" and would not be so protected. However, there is wisdom in discrimination as we each exercise our own free will choice.

It's natural to gravitate towards what resonates and go away from what doesn't or what feels harmful to your overall well-being.

Sometimes sensitivity is misunderstood, even by the sensitive person. We need an awareness--a translator-- to read the information in the energy. Feelings hold intelligent information. If they are not denied, but contemplated, wisdom and direct information that is applicable to discern best decisions arise.

At least, that's my perspective (and experience).

MM :)



OMG, you've addressed something vital here Michelle...

I'm reading Jordan Peterson at the moment, and one of his "12 rules for life" is this: "do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them".

The reason being...if this behavior is left unchecked, nobody will like them once they're out in the "real world". If your parents don't even like you, what chance do you have? Therefore, do the hard and uncomfortable disciplining yourself to save your kid a lifetime of problems.

This is another example of choosing discomfort over safety. It's another example of choosing discipline over the risk of hurting feelings. It's ultimately better in every way. He is saying, have the courage to do the hard work and it will ultimately pay off.

Parents these days don't want to hurt their kid's feelings. They want to be "cool" parents. They want to be liked. It just may be the downfall of civilization as we know it...and I don't think I'm being dramatic.

[Elpis]

I’ve been called sensitive, passionate, empathetic, strong and fearless. I look at all these attributes as positive. When facing a difficult situation my strength is always at my core. I suppose that is why I come across as being fearless.

Sometimes I have to put fear on the back burner; waiting for some alone time where I can take my armor off and have a good cry. So yes, sometimes it does suck being sensitive.


With Love ~

[Michi]

He quickly got over the fear of fighting the neighborhood kids because he was much more afraid of facing his cousin afterwards if he lost! Today he is fearless. Utterly fearless. And it has served him well! He's 34 years old now, and he's told me many times that he's glad his cousin did what he did, and he wouldn't change a thing. I can't say I recommend his cousins' methods, but you can't argue with the result.

I second that: He became afraid of ever again getting beaten by someone like his cousin or similar situations. This is called conditioning. (Like what Pavlov did.)

While your overall message to face your fears is certainly valid and vital, one should not make the mistake to enforce on others various "means" to face their fears by making them more afraid if they're not.

Also to deliberately watch horror movies or watch obnoxious content on youtube in my eyes conditions oneself to become more dull and indifferent about such matters.

A better approach to face ones fears would be to confront challenging, perceived or imagined dangers with help of coaches.

Certainly, live requires facing obstacles and not running from it.


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

-- H. Jackson Brown Jr. - Author

[RunningDeer]

If we can’t confront ourselves, we can't confront others.

From one perspective:

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg I’m in the business of confronting myself. I'll catch a glimpse of something and another aspect reveals itself. Once the great, big goblin within gets pierced (again and again and again), it all looks a lot different out there. Out there becomes proportionately laughable.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg When one does the work of confronting self, the need to confront others lessens.

Disclaimer:
............http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/work-in-progress2.gif

♡

[Mike]

I’ve been called sensitive, passionate, empathetic, strong and fearless. I look at all these attributes as positive. When facing a difficult situation my strength is always at my core. I suppose that is why I come across as being fearless.

Sometimes I have to put fear on the back burner; waiting for some alone time where I can take my armor off and have a good cry. So yes, sometimes it does suck being sensitive.


With Love ~



I need to be alone to have a cry now n again too! Nothing wrong with that. That's wisdom. That's being honest with yourself. That's knowing you need that release to move forward and be productive. I applaud that.

If you were crying every day, I might suggest a "trip to the underworld" as Jordan Peterson would say, to honestly and straightforwardly deal with whatever was plaguing you.

This isn't about being macho. It's not about burying sensitivities....it's about confronting them courageously, being honest with oneself, and arriving at a sensible balance.

To not confront them would be to dishonor yourself, in my view..

Thanks for the post.

[DNA]

The Carlos Castaneda teachings helped me with this because he drove home the point of "indulging" in your behavior.
I realized that not wanting to go out and participate with my friends as a teenager was my "indulging" in my sensitivities.
I wanted nothing more than to hole up in my room, listen to Rush, read my books and smoke some pot.
I owe a lot to my teenage friends who got me into the real world. I got into confrontations including fist fights and I'm absolutely the better for it.
I think the initial message of the movie "fight club" plays a lot into what Mike is saying.
I see young men completely satisfied now with video games, online friendships and porn in place of real intimacy.
We have a whole generation of young men who never engage in the art of pursuing female companionship because of the confrontational nature of it.

[Daozen]

Lots of truth and value here. A counter-point: Sensitivity is a monetizable asset sometimes worth billions. Designers, painters, musciains, producers all have to be acutely sensitive to tone, colors, nuances of words, yadda yadda. Their path is to learn how to keep that sensitivity without being prissy or easily offended. It's difficult.

Something else I noticed: Denizens of the US and Austrailia, South Africa and NZ will often pride themselves on "blunt" "straight-talkers", who "tell it like it is" and "don't sugar coat the truth"... uhhuh... OK, I'll buy that for a dollar. When I deal with an Asian, the overwhelming majority of them will talk respectfully to others. With Strines and Septics, it's a mixed bag. About 20% have near zero social awareness. I've been picked up on my tone too, on and offline. But I never give it the "Im a striaght talker" routine. I go away, think about it and try and improve.

Now look at the stats:

1) Developed westerners often pride themselves on being blunt.
2) The western economy is tanking hard.
3) Suicide is the leading cause of death among Austrailian males.
4) Large amounts of westerners are unable to get through the day without taking anti-depressants.

Is there a link between 1,2,3 and 4? Is the price of being an edgy-bad-boy-straight-talker a trashed economy, high suicide rates and widepsread drug use? Westerners have been told they're the best people on Earth for 3 generations. That has got to go to people's head. Ask anyone who'd been in Asia if they liek they way they talk to others. Most people will say yes.

By all means, put the truth across, but always with an edge of respect for people's soul. I am still learning. People who can put the truth across while maintaining a human touch are comparatively rare. Their company is invigorating, not draining. Stanley Kubrick often dispensed brutal truths, but he did it with beautiful colors, sound, words and humor.

I agree that if you dont' learn a lesson yourself, life will give it to you harder.

Ultimately it comes down to free will and market forces. People will choose the lesson they want. It's a free-will plane-ette.

[DNA]

If we can’t confront ourselves, we can't confront others.

From one perspective:

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg I’m in the business of confronting myself. I'll catch a glimpse of something and another aspect reveals itself. Once the great, big goblin within gets pierced (again and again and again), it all looks a lot different out there. Out there becomes proportionately laughable.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg When one does the work of confronting self, the desire, the need to confront others lessens.

Disclaimer:
............http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/work-in-progress2.gif

♡
Indeed! Such is why my signature at the bottom of my posting page says this.
"The conquering of self is truly greater than were one to conquer many worlds."
Edgar Cayce

I spent most of my life confronting a part of myself that could only be overcome with extreme attention and meditation.
This part of myself living in Jung's shadow that needed to be acknowledged and incorporated into my entire being. Eventually I learned that conquering this "aspect" of myself was far too time consuming, as such I've done better acknowledging these faults as ingrained character flaws that were better acknowledged than banished. These character flaws are a part of me and I'm better for knowing myself and being an honest flawed being rather than pretending to be a sage or guru not weighed down the same as everyone else. I'm a reincarnationalist who believes that all of the lessons will be learned "eventually". :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja6_h4lT6A
Tja6_h4lT6A

[Mike]

If we can’t confront ourselves, we can't confront others.

From one perspective:

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg I’m in the business of confronting myself. I'll catch a glimpse of something and another aspect reveals itself. Once the great, big goblin within gets pierced (again and again and again), it all looks a lot different out there. Out there becomes proportionately laughable.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/tab.jpg When one does the work of confronting self, the desire, the need to confront others lessens.

Disclaimer:
............http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/work-in-progress2.gif

♡



Oh my, am I *ever* a work in progress! Lol

Well they say you teach what you need to learn most, right? I'm not trying to teach here really, just trying to sort out all my thoughts on this stuff by writing about it. My point: I need to hear this msg more than anyone!

Not confronting the self, not having the emotional courage to take that trip to the underworld, reverberates. Its a failure that manifests repeatedly throughout life. I speak from experience! And every failure begets more failures - it just gets harder and harder to make that trip as the emotional baggage piles up.

I was talking to a friend today who is navigating everything that goes along with being sexually molested as a kid. It's the same friend I mentioned above whose cousin made him do all the fighting (he did confess to some mixed feelings about that today). It's a very convoluted story and I won't get into the details....but his mother can't discuss any of it with him because she was molested as a child too, and hasn't confronted all the emotional baggage that accompanies that..and just lapses into hysteria whenever it comes up. This I would say is an example of not confronting yourself and your issues affecting you and the people you love in the long run - here we have a mother who cannot comfort her son because she has not done the inner work; and here we have a son looking for support from the mother to do the inner work but cannot get it.

So I think we have a responsibility as human beings, to ourselves and everyone around us, to have the courage to confront ourselves, to take emotional risks...and to not let our sensitivities dictate to us.

[Mike]

Marcus, dude I've thought of you a couple times as I was reading this book "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson. You especially would appreciate it. These aren't 12 trite, silly suggestions. It's quite involved - the guy is a scholar and the book is a little dense. But there are tons of parallels to the Castaneda stuff.

I was about halfway thru the book when I thought, holy sh!t this is an instruction guide on how to become what Castaneda called a "warrior". Only it's written about 100x better. I really hope you get a chance to read it.

And Paula I've thought of you too frequently while reading due to quite a few similarities to the Beall material:)

[Mike]

Hi Daozen,


Their path is to learn how to keep that sensitivity without being prissy or easily offended. It's difficult.
Indeed. This is what I'm getting at. It's that space that's struck when excessive sensitivity is tempered, and the "safety" switch is shut off, and the emotional world has been disciplined, or ordered. Too much order is tyrannical, too less is chaos. There is a balance there if one is willing to do the work.

I would say that those artists that have monetized their extreme sensitivities have done so thru their art. They've "done the work" thru writing, music, acting, painting...you name it. They've found their emotional courage through their creativity. Some people sit on couches and talk to therapists..other people get creative. There are all sorts of ways and therefore no excuses to not get started.

My original post wasn't an invitation to become a "tell it like it is" guy; that's an ego trap if there ever was one. My suggestion was total honesty with oneself - emotionally and intellectually...not disingenuous ego competition. If one could achieve such a state, or even if one is striving for it, I think it would be nothing but beneficial for their physical health...for some obvious reasons and others we don't quite understand.

[DNA]

Marcus, dude I've thought of you a couple times as I was reading this book "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson. You especially would appreciate it. These aren't 12 trite, silly suggestions. It's quite involved - the guy is a scholar and the book is a little dense. But there are tons of parallels to the Castaneda stuff.

I was about halfway thru the book when I thought, holy sh!t this is an instruction guide on how to be what Castaneda called a "warrior". Only it's written about 100x better. I really hope you get a chance to read it.

And Paula I've thought of you too frequently while reading due to quite a few similarities to the Beall material:)

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the heads up I'll check out the "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson.
And if I find the guy has written this 100x better than Castaneda I will absolutely let you know.
I personally think the subjective part of this is when you read something and how the timing of the material has affected you.
At certain points of our development and at certain ages we are simply going to be "ready" for something, and the combination of timing and effect will determine how profound the information will be.
Having Castaneda as a fifteen year old martial artist who could do the splits "both" splits and was often tasked with sparring the rival schools best student put me in a particularly excellent position to have the "energy" required to truly get a boost from Castaneda.
Silencing the internal dialogue during elaborate stretching routines really allowed me to see the effects. Not having a car as a fifteen or sixteen year old meant I walked several miles everyday, and this also is an excellent time to practice silencing the internal dialogue.
Had Castaneda made it into my life as say a 30 year old, the books would probably have had not nearly the effect on my life. So timing with specific literature in your life makes a big deal in my opinion. :cheers:

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Empower/12RulesforLife2.jpg
"12 Rules for Life" http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/reading.gif

Stand up straight with your shoulders back
Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping
Make friends with people who want the best for you
Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today
Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world
Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie
Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't
Be precise in your speech
Do not bother children when they are skateboarding
Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street

(Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Rules_for_Life))

12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos (31 minutes)
eYKN3lUdC6I

♡


Thanks Mike, I appreciate the heads up I'll check out the "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson.

Marcus, dude I've thought of you a couple times as I was reading this book "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson. ... was about halfway thru the book when I thought, holy sh!t this is an instruction guide on how to be what Castaneda called a "warrior". Only it's written about 100x better. I really hope you get a chance to read it.

[Mike]

Had Castaneda made it into my life as say a 30 year old, the books would probably have had not nearly the effect on my life. So timing with specific literature in your life makes a big deal in my opinion.

Couldn't agree more Marcus. 12 Rules is sorta like Castaneda for 40 yr olds and up:)

¤=[Post Update]=¤

OMG, awesome...thank you Paula!

:heart:

[Mike]

Those rules appear so simple, and they are...but this guy digs deep, using religious archetypes to illustrate everything he's saying. The chapters go on for ages...and you're glad when they do.

Marcus my favorite Castaneda book is 'Journey To Ixtlan", specifically the 5 or 6 uncharacteristically practical lessons taught in the beginning of the book. Peterson is like that...on steroids

[Elpis]

I’ve been called sensitive, passionate, empathetic, strong and fearless. I look at all these attributes as positive. When facing a difficult situation my strength is always at my core. I suppose that is why I come across as being fearless.

Sometimes I have to put fear on the back burner; waiting for some alone time where I can take my armor off and have a good cry. So yes, sometimes it does suck being sensitive.


With Love ~



I need to be alone to have a cry now n again too! Nothing wrong with that. That's wisdom. That's being honest with yourself. That's knowing you need that release to move forward and be productive. I applaud that.

If you were crying every day, I might suggest a "trip to the underworld" as Jordan Peterson would say, to honestly and straightforwardly deal with whatever was plaguing you.

This isn't about being macho. It's not about burying sensitivities....it's about confronting them courageously, being honest with oneself, and arriving at a sensible balance.

To not confront them would be to dishonor yourself, in my view..

Thanks for the post.


Thank you for the comment Mike.

I had to laugh. No, I am not crying every day and don’t feel as if I need to take any “trips”. I’m on pretty solid ground here.

It’s true, it’s very important to recognize your sensitivities and to confront/embrace them. They are part of your total makeup. There is no denying them. There is no burying them. Burying them can lead you down a very dark path. It’s all in how you deal with them, on your own or with someone you trust. At some point they need to come to the surface and see the light of day. It’s not nearly as scary in the daylight!

With Love ~

[Mike]

This is the perfect place to start for anyone interested in Peterson. This interview is quite famous now; it's a master class in handling oneself with grace and wit under pressure. About 30 mins long. Must see:

aMcjxSThD54

[DNA]

Don Juan quotes from Castaneda
I'm placing these here because I think they hint at and expand on what Mike is saying in this thread. :)

"We have been trained to live and die meekly, following unnatural codes of behavior which soften us and make us lose that initial impulse, until our spirit is hardly noticeable. We are born as a result of a fight. By denying our basic tendencies, the society we live in eradicates the warring heritage that transforms us into magical beings."

"For a warrior, to be harmonious is to flow, not to stop in the middle of the current and try to make a space of artificial and impossible peace. He knows that he can only give the very best of himself under conditions of maximum tension."

"We are beings who are going to die. We were programmed to live like beasts, carrying loads of customs and other people’s beliefs until the very end; but we can change all that! The freedom which the warrior’s way offers us is within the reach of your hand; take advantage of it!"

"The tragedy of today’s man is not his social condition, but the lack of will to change himself."

"Sorcerers say that true rebellion, and humanity’s only way out as a species, is to stage a revolution against their own stupidity. As you can understand, this is solitary work."

"Don Juan claimed that what limits human perception is timidity. To be able to manage the world which surrounds us, we have had to give up our perceptual gift; that is, the possibility of witnessing everything. We sacrifice the flight of awareness in exchange for the security of the known. We can live strong, audacious, healthy lives; we can be impeccable warriors; but we don’t dare!"

"Take a risk! Get out of the trap of self-reflection and dare to perceive all that is humanly possible! A warrior of knowledge makes an effort to be authentic, and he won’t accept any compromises, because the object of his fight is total freedom."

[Michelle Marie]

I've observed parents over-protecting children, and knew the kids would someday have to face the "real world" and would not be so protected. However, there is wisdom in discrimination as we each exercise our own free will choice.

It's natural to gravitate towards what resonates and go away from what doesn't or what feels harmful to your overall well-being.

Sometimes sensitivity is misunderstood, even by the sensitive person. We need an awareness--a translator-- to read the information in the energy. Feelings hold intelligent information. If they are not denied, but contemplated, wisdom and direct information that is applicable to discern best decisions arise.

At least, that's my perspective (and experience).

MM :)



OMG, you've addressed something vital here Michelle...

I'm reading Jordan Peterson at the moment, and one of his "12 rules for life" is this: "do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them".

The reason being...if this behavior is left unchecked, nobody will like them once they're out in the "real world". If your parents don't even like you, what chance do you have? Therefore, do the hard and uncomfortable disciplining yourself to save your kid a lifetime of problems.

This is another example of choosing discomfort over safety. It's another example of choosing discipline over the risk of hurting feelings. It's ultimately better in every way. He is saying, have the courage to do the hard work and it will ultimately pay off.

Parents these days don't want to hurt their kid's feelings. They want to be "cool" parents. They want to be liked. It just may be the downfall of civilization as we know it...and I don't think I'm being dramatic.

I saw exactly that take place. Out of control, undisciplined kids, who "could do no wrong" in their parents eyes. Their behavior was horrible and they were hard to like individuals.

One parent I called to tell her that her son choked a girl and got an F on his math test said to me: "What did you do to him? He was fine in church yesterday."

No accountability. It was almost hilarious, as if I could do something to make him choke a girl-- or do poorly on his math test. A few times I told parents, I'm a teacher, not a babysitter. You come into class and make your child behave while I teach the kids that want to learn. I could be firm at times!

There are both ends of the spectrum: over protective and under disciplined.

If only common sense would prevail...:)

MM

[Mike]

A better approach to face ones fears would be to confront challenging, perceived or imagined dangers with help of coaches.

With respect, I don't think this is possible. The training life gives you in all it's organic forms can't be recreated in a lab (metaphorically speaking)

My friend, from my previous example, would not have the same toughness and fearlessness today if he had taken a karate class, for example.

If I hadn't been unhealthy to the point of death, I wouldn't have read so much, learned to write effectively, or even developed an interest in the paranormal or conspiratorial ( I only read those books because I was unable to do anything else). I wouldn't be on Avalon, that's for sure.

Life is tough, unbearable at times. But if you transcend these challenges, or at least attempt to, there is a real potential for positive transformation. Sometimes, without these challenges, the motivation doesn't even exist to improve oneself. So in this way, hiding or trying to hide from uncomfortable situations might actually cause one to miss some wonderful opportunities

My suggestion to watch scary movies and violent youtube videos applies only if you are terrified of them. And watching them just might represent a very small (but important!) step on the way to emotional freedom. That may sound naive, but I'm stickin to it:)

[Mike]

"The tragedy of today’s man is not his social condition, but the lack of will to change himself."

Absolutely awesome list Marcus:). Thanks for posting brother! They're all so good, but I think I like this one best.

[Caliban]

Mike, thanks for the post. Definitely some important stuff you laid down there.

That too sensitive, too safe thing is really a pandemic condition. And conditioning. It's gotten worse with the whole thing we see out there with the politics, and lies, and all... And the arts have suffered big time, with a mediocrity running through much of what gets to the public.

Fear is interesting. (I remember ND Walsch in his first book talking about love and fear being the only things we're dealing with here.) Even deeper than confronting the bully is that other level of fear. It's that fear that seems to be all around us that sometimes permeates the atmosphere. What is that? Is that just the reality we have to deal with on this plane? Planet?

I find myself exploring that. It's like a silent dumb friend who's always around. It's an illusion but we keep it strong, seemingly alive.

[Mike]

Thanks for chiming in, Caliban.

And the arts have suffered big time, with a mediocrity running through much of what gets to the public.

Oh my, yes. Being courageous with oneself emotionally, not lying, tempering sensitivities etc....these are all character building suggestions, I think. When character gets eroded, art reflects that; bad art glorifies it, and good art attempts to undress it. But in a backwards world, good is bad and bad is good. Nobody knows who Vonnegut is anymore, but everyone knows who the Kardashians are.

Good art is a bridge between this world and the next; it has a foot in both worlds. When that bridge is compromised, we become very distorted..emotionally, mentally, spiritually. It's what I'm attempting to address here in a round about way

[ExomatrixTV]

http://whynotnews.eu/pix/riskfreelife.png (https://www.facebook.com/groups/132344063516650/permalink/1717897008294673/)

source (https://www.facebook.com/groups/132344063516650/permalink/1717897008294673/)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

My suggestion to watch scary movies and violent youtube videos applies only if you are terrified of them.

Hey Mike. I totally agree that we are far better, far stronger for facing our fears and overcoming them, it's all part of the learning curve, part of the journey. For example, kids should not be wrapped up in cotton-wool to protect them from the big scary world. Discipline is essential. Restrictions, limitations. Teach them to depend on the self. Also they need to be let loose, to explore, see, feel, and take a bloody knee once in a while. They'd never make it otherwise.

Yet, fear and sensitivity...[and how to define them]

I count myself as sensitive, or as 'a' sensitive. I am extremely sensitive. But only to the world outside; inside I'm fine. What do I mean? I do not fear the world outside, I am merely repelled by it. Not that I get offended, per se. This is not about my vulnerability, insecurities, or self-esteem. It's about appetite, and empathy.

I love a good horror movie, but that's just make-believe. The Thing, Alien, IT, Silence of the Lambs etc. These sorts of movies are great for simulating emotional reactions, but it's just simulation. And then you have Hostel for example... Flicks like that. I won't watch those, or anything that delights in cruelty and grotesquerie and excessive gore. That stuff is dark, and potentially damaging. And beyond that, you have the real thing, like, as you say, a girl getting beaten up in a YT video. And there are worse things to see out there.

I wouldn't watch a girl getting beaten under any circumstances. I see no benefit in it. It would disgust and sadden me. If there's anything I fear, it's to become desensitized to this sort of stuff – and I argue, perhaps TPTB want to do that to us! To benumb empathy is to deaden and decay the soul. If I'm being over-sensitive, I'm okay with that. I'd rather nurture my empathy than risk disabling it.

I hope I haven't missed the point of the thread, in a bit of a rush today.

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/scratch-thinker.gif
Jordan Peterson's power of concentration is phenomenal. His ability to separate the complexity of a question into parts on the fly and in front of millions watching, sold me. I just purchased his book.
Thanks, Mike. :bearhug:

This is the perfect place to start for anyone interested in Peterson. This interview is quite famous now; it's a master class in handling oneself with grace and wit under pressure. About 30 mins long. Must see:


aMcjxSThD54

[DNA]

This is the perfect place to start for anyone interested in Peterson. This interview is quite famous now; it's a master class in handling oneself with grace and wit under pressure. About 30 mins long. Must see:

aMcjxSThD54

I listened to the guy last night and he was pretty spot on with quite a few of his comments. He was getting grilled about not wanting to call a transgender Sir or Mam in connection to what gender they had transferred to. The reporter was all up in arms interviewing him and grilling him asking that he should be oh so worried about offending the transgendered individuals. And his answer was pretty cool in that it was pretty much summed up as "so what? you don't mind grilling me and offending me with your questions why are we so worried if someone gets offended if they are transgender?". I bring this up because there was a very similar point I was trying to make with you a few months back and you were getting pretty pissed with me it seemed. :sorry:
My only point I was trying to make was that I don't care if transgenders or what not get offended if I refuse to put them on a pedestal and acquiesce to their demands now being made on society.
Sorry to bring it up now, but we rarely ever leave on such awkward terms as we did on that thread and I'm hoping Jordan's manner of phrasing this may make the sense to you that I was not capable of articulating.:yes4:

[Mike]

Hey Marcus, yep I recall us having a debate about all that. I think we were just getting our wires crossed a little. I agree with both Peterson and yourself on the point raised in your post(regarding the endless list of labels and pronouns the trans community wants us all to use) I'd have to go back and look at what I wrote specifically, but I think I was just imploring everyone not to demonize an entire group of people because of a few misguided activists. Also, i think you align with the religious right whereas I'm sort of in the middle somewhere. I think that's where we left it, right? But no man, I was never pissed! :)

Peterson frequently stresses that he gets loads of support letters and emails from the trans community. He also stresses over n over that he's no transphobe...he just particularly resents the people calling themselves "activists" that claim to represent the whole trans community. They are the ones making the unreasonable demands, not the average trans person on the street. Etc etc etc.

[AutumnW]

So much of the problems people have with their children, going back a good 30 years or more, is a one size fits all attitude towards them. Parents have been told by professionals that all bad behavior is the result of fear.

So the parent, rather than asserting their authority, with solid boundaries and appropriate discipline, casts about for answers to their child's fear. Much worse they do this with an edge of guilt. A guilty parent gives up their rightful place in the family hierarchy and allows their child to rule, essentially.

Parents who are guilty will assuage their guilt with back-up-the-truck gift giving. In that case you have a child whose underlying problem isn't fear but aggression having his or her greed catered to as well.

In no way is this healthy wise or proportionate-- even if the child is basically fearful and insecure.

Some children are very sensitive but most aren't. They are sensitive to their desires (not wants) being obstructed. I feel for parents and children who are sensitive and kind being forced into situations where they have to conform to a deeply flawed and narcissistic culture.

I would have home schooled my kids if I had had any.

[AutumnW]

DNA,

I have watched a lot of Jordan Pererson and have to disagree with your take here. I believe he is happy to comply with a transgendered individual's desire to conform to one of the two genders that make it easier to navigate the social realm. What he objects to is the government imposing rules that broaden pronouns to several different categories, or conversely deny that there is even such a thing as biological gender.

I have a close transgender friend, born a guy who desires to be called 'she' so that's what I do. She dresses in a feminine way, is beautiful in a feminine way, so of course I refer to her as "her." But if she or anybody else asked me to refer to them using one of several different pronouns I am not familiar with I would have a problem with that. It's not practical and the govt has no business interfering with what should be a natural process of language, be it evolving or remaining static.

The whole 'self Identifying' thing where a person sees him or herself as a raccoon, a wolf or a different race altogether is nonsense. It dilutes the very real suffering and tragic history of those whose with a very basic underlying mismatch between a strongly masculine or feminine temperament and their biology.

A person's 'physiology' is mind and brain working in tandem with body. Being feminine or masculine is part of common physiology where this coordinates well. It is a basic. If this doesn't happen smoothly it creates a deep problem. Very very few in the trans community want to be anything other than the opposite sex AND referred to, in that manner.

[AutumnW]

Mike,

I have the best story about a 'sensitive soul.' This was kind of a shocker for me. My partner and I met a fellow in a coffee shop one morning and asked him where he was from and vice versa. When I told him I had lived in a small town in Ontario at one time, he was totally confused about the place, had not heard of it. So I said, "oh, it's been in the news. Remember that front page story about the serial killer, happened last year? That's where I lived.

The dude jumped out of his chair and yelled at me! "You have no idea what you just did to me and how words can kill!" He looked at us like WE were serial killers and slowly backed out of the coffee shop.

Seriously. I was kind of embarrassed.

Oh, and then there are the, "no empathy empaths". These people have to guard their advanced and highly evolved souls that come with TOO much empathy by wandering the social landscape like robots lest they be 'infected' with a virus of others emotions.

[AutumnW]

I’ve been called sensitive, passionate, empathetic, strong and fearless. I look at all these attributes as positive. When facing a difficult situation my strength is always at my core. I suppose that is why I come across as being fearless.

Sometimes I have to put fear on the back burner; waiting for some alone time where I can take my armor off and have a good cry. So yes, sometimes it does suck being sensitive.


With Love ~

Interesting. Bravery is not fearlessness. It's the ability to put it on the back burner for the greater good. Truly innate fearlessness is symptomatic. We need some of these types too, just not too many!

[Dennis Leahy]

The opposite end of the spectrum is desensitization.

In my distant past, I have had to fight with my fists a few times - fights that did not end until a severe enough injury ended the fight. I know what it feels like. I have experienced it. Now, when I see physical beatings (videos, movies), enough adrenaline races through me to make my muscles twitch, and my stomach knot-up. I become physically "ill", and feel like hell for many hours afterwords (that's not a mental thing, it's an endocrine system and nervous system thing.)

Is there some great life lesson or psychological advantage to me seeking out and watching beatings until (supposedly) I toughen myself up, and desensitize myself so it has no physiological effect on me to see beatings? Maybe in a Mad Max, hyper-aggressive, kill or be killed, world - but not in the (admittedly completely f'd-up) world I actually live in (where the bulk of violence is financial.)

I'm convinced that there is an agenda of deliberate desensitization toward murder and mayhem in "first person shooter"-type video games. The military gains a huge advantage if the new recruits can already visualize themselves shooting "bad guys" (you know, like Muslims or Blacks or anti-war demonstrators), and wading through the blood and body parts, searching for more people to kill. Are these young "desktop warriors" confronting their fears, or are they being sorta MK ULTRA'd to desensitize the innate humanity and compassion out of them, and make them into lethal military tools?

True, the world is not safe - never was, never will be, even if we are only dealing with nature. In any situation, "moving to safety" is an evolutionary tool for survival. Moving deliberately toward the un-safe is, well, that's what the "Darwin Awards" are all about.

Since the opening post also contains truth, I suspect that a wise overview includes a balance - not either extreme.

[Mike]

OMG Autumn, your story made me laugh! Thanks for sharing.

I may not even have believed it had I not seen the same behavior myself.

I once invited a friend of mine to accompany myself and a girlfriend to the movies (btw, this is the obnoxiously soft friend I referred to in an earlier post)

The movie was "23" starring Jim Carrey. It's not a horror movie, but it is sort of a creepy thriller type of movie, with some Hitchcock elements sprinkled in.

To be fair, I wasn't totally honest with him as to what the movie was about. I just told him Jim Carrey was in it; this made him think it was safe and watchable. I knew he was averse to scary stuff, but in my defense, at this point in time, I had no idea just how averse he was.

Well, he had sort of a breakdown after watching the movie. He actually accused me of "ruining his life". That was his exact quote. He acted strangely for *weeks* after that! It was unbelievable!!!

This is another example: OMG, it's simply unreal. So he and I went and saw the movie "MacGruber" in the movie theatre. It's a comedy starring Will Forte; it's a spoof on the 80's show "MacGyver". Its total silliness. It's campy caricature. There is nothing whatsoever threatening about it *at all*...

...well there's one scene where Macgruber sees the ghost of his now dead wife in the cemetery, and they have a little sexual romp. It's complete absurdity. Well this friend of mine lept from his seat and literally ran out of the theatre as that part was playing LOL. It was too much for him. Can you believe that??? I was speechless.:bigsmile:

[Mike]

Hey Dennis, that type of violence sickens me too. I hate it.

But I still maintain that there may be some value in watching it; just like there's some value in watching old world war 2 holocaust footage, or seeing the dead bodies of those who have been murdered in brutal ways.

I don't mean to say you should hunker down and make a night out of it...with a date and a bowl of popcorn:) And this isn't some sick, macabre, freak show type of suggestion..just to be clear.

We're all capable of the worst. And it starts with small things. Lies, for example. One of the 12 rules in the Peterson book is 'don't lie'. Small lies run amok resulted in the deaths of millions of Jews in world war 2 Germany.

We've gotten so intellectually and emotionally lazy as a species that, in my view, we need *dramatic* reminders of what all humans - including ourselves - are capable of if we let our character deteriorate to the point where we're sprinting out the movie "MacGruber" because of the sex-with-the-dead-wife's-ghost scene:wink:(please see my previous post if I've lost you there)

Balance is another issue I'd like to discuss, so I appreciate you bringing up 'desensitization' as well. But I have to go to work now, so feel free to take the baton from here:)

[Bill Ryan]

The dude jumped out of his chair and yelled at me! "You have no idea what you just did to me and how words can kill!" He looked at us like WE were serial killers and slowly backed out of the coffee shop.


Well, he had sort of a breakdown after watching the movie. He actually accused me of "ruining his life". That was his exact quote. He acted strangely for *weeks* after that! It was unbelievable!!!


A footnote here, though it's an important one. And it'll surely be obvious and well-known to anyone following the thread. :)

There's a world (a universe!) of difference between


Reacting to something externally (through sensitivity), losing control, and blaming others for 'doing it to them'

and


Reacting to something internally, taking responsibility for it, and realizing that there's a great new opportunity for increased growth and awareness.

[onawah]

Sensitivity, to be healthy, must be openness to all experiences of life, including the negative, though within sensible parameters.
For example I cannot spend too much time researching pedophilia, Satanic rituals, torture, child sacrifice, etc. without feeling sick, contaminated and hopeless, so I choose not to deal with that kind of information unless there is some purpose for it, some pro-active thing I can do to help expose/stop it.
Attempting to block out all negativity contributes to a state of being unbalanced, ungrounded and unable to function in this reality, and does not contribute to spiritual evolution.
Resistance and denial are clearly traits of spiritual immaturity and being "stuck".
Choosing to look at the light side of things helps to create a practical and effective state of mind, but even being positive must be kept within sensible parameters to be effective.
One reason why the Buddha taught The Middle Way, and balance in all things.
Yet even then...
http://www.buddhastate.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/buddhastate-middleway-300x209.jpg
And so detachment is also very necessary for maintaining balance.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/15/e8/d3/15e8d3d105486dbadabc227ae870626a--detachment-quotes-open-minded.jpg

[syrwong]

Sensitivity is a form of alertness, and is base on fear. While a little fear of dangerous things is essential for survival, excess fear like freezing at the sight of a spider is not desirable. So being overly sensitive is not good. TPTB's major method of exploitation of humanity is by constantly feeding fear. They offer protection to the point of not showing you "graphic" pictures of a tragic event. Of course this means that they can just talk about a fake news event and produce great fear like it is real.

The only way for humanity to free itself from slavery is to be brave, but we are pushed to the opposite direction and have become overly sensitive by the "educational system". An example would be pictures like the Vietnamese monk setting fire on himself will be censored, making his desperate protest futile. This trend to enhanced sensitivity is bad and will only make a future of total government control all the more likely.

[DNA]

DNA,

I have watched a lot of Jordan Pererson and have to disagree with your take here. I believe he is happy to comply with a transgendered individual's desire to conform to one of the two genders that make it easier to navigate the social realm. What he objects to is the government imposing rules that broaden pronouns to several different categories, or conversely deny that there is even such a thing as biological gender.

I have a close transgender friend, born a guy who desires to be called 'she' so that's what I do. She dresses in a feminine way, is beautiful in a feminine way, so of course I refer to her as "her." But if she or anybody else asked me to refer to them using one of several different pronouns I am not familiar with I would have a problem with that. It's not practical and the govt has no business interfering with what should be a natural process of language, be it evolving or remaining static.

The whole 'self Identifying' thing where a person sees him or herself as a raccoon, a wolf or a different race altogether is nonsense. It dilutes the very real suffering and tragic history of those whose with a very basic underlying mismatch between a strongly masculine or feminine temperament and their biology.

A person's 'physiology' is mind and brain working in tandem with body. Being feminine or masculine is part of common physiology where this coordinates well. It is a basic. If this doesn't happen smoothly it creates a deep problem. Very very few in the trans community want to be anything other than the opposite sex AND referred to, in that manner.

There is a Tavistock Institute rationale behind the transgender "concern" right now.
The push to confuse children and parents into labeling and then "acting" upon some kind of gender decision before a child has even hit puberty.
The transgender and gay community as a whole are being used right now to push agendas for a more nefarious cause.

Transgenders don't even make up a large percentage of the gay community. For most gay folks the transgender deal is not an issue with them. There are so few transgender folks but the media is telling "all" of us that it is an issue so compelling and important that they must make it part of the curriculum in our schools for third grade children and younger.

My personal take on the entire transgender thing is "why should the greater portion of the country need to give a rats ass?". If my personal opinion should count for anything and I'm fine with it not, my opinion of going through a transgender procedure is that it is a form of mutilation. A man going through a transgender procedure is now a mutilated man, not a woman. Now that is "only" an opinion, yet someone here is going to be "activated" and make themselves the thought police and attack me for this.
I do not have anything against gay folks who wish to do whatever they want that is not involved with dictating social norms to me or my family.
But I do not consider a transgendered man a woman, to do so insults all women in my opinion.

[Daozen]

I sense there are many contradictions in this thread which would need to be unravelled to lead a happy life:

"The conflict between humanity's stated desire for peace and their actual need for volatility was the central theme of the entire Original Dune after book one. "

Is there a connection between nutritional imblances and sensitivity? Magnesium, B-Vits, MSM and green veg are all necesary for calm nerves. I eat a lot of high copper foods. That can cause problems. I can be obsessing over something... then I take some zinc. 30 minutes later Im like... get over yourself... and the problem is forgotten.

[turiya]

Sensitivity is a form of alertness, and is base on fear. While a little fear of dangerous things is essential for survival, excess fear like freezing at the sight of a spider is not desirable. So being overly sensitive is not good. TPTB's major method of exploitation of humanity is by constantly feeding fear. They offer protection to the point of not showing you "graphic" pictures of a tragic event. Of course this means that they can just talk about a fake news event and produce great fear like it is real.

The only way for humanity to free itself from slavery is to be brave, but we are pushed to the opposite direction and have become overly sensitive by the "educational system". An example would be pictures like the Vietnamese monk setting fire on himself will be censored, making his desperate protest futile. This trend to enhanced sensitivity is bad and will only make a future of total government control all the more likely.

I would say it a bit differently...

Sensitivity has degrees of awareness. Fear exists in a state of unawareness. Survival instinct is biologically inherent. Execessive fear is thought-driven excess, which can inhibit biological fiight / flight responses. Seeing a coil of rope to be a poisonous snake is delusional unawareness. A deer that 'freezes in the headlights' simply means the deer is blinded by the light. TPTB's major exploitation of humanity shows a desiring mind, many minds, that knows no peace.

The only way for a human being to be free is to find the treasure that lies within. That is done through a silent mind & open heart. Courage is something one is born with. The seeming lack of it, is a mind-control programming, programmed by society. Because society does not want individuals. It only wants sheep. Because sheep are easy to control. A monk setting himself on fire, for any reason, is a damn fool. It is the least religious thing one can do. For life is a gift. Torching it away in such a way is unforgiveable. It does not deserve to be celebrated. If one is sentive enough, one can be free even while living in a prison.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

...well there's one scene where Macgruber sees the ghost of his now dead wife in the cemetery, and they have a little sexual romp. It's complete absurdity. Well this friend of mine lept from his seat and literally ran out of the theatre as that part was playing LOL. It was too much for him. Can you believe that??? I was speechless.:bigsmile:

Yes, I can actually believe that! I went out with a lovely girl once, we got on so well, had such a ball, it was beyond perfect. Except she was the biggest wuss ever. She had a huge, intense, pathological terror of horror films, thrillers, even anything suspenseful. I tried to break her out of it with something very tame to start with. I know, I said, a comedy - with a dash of horror. Shaun of the Dead. Hilarious right? Perfect.

Bad call, Ripley, I made a baaaad call.

I don't think she's gotten over it to this day. Although, having said that, I haven't heard from her for 5 years.

Slight shift off topic, an interlude if you will, but Shaun of the Dead - if you haven't seen it, I heartily recommend (If you don't have too fragile a disposition).:facepalm:


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[Mike]

Funny story Star Mariner!

For me, it's difficult to understand how she couldn't have handled that differently. Perhaps laughed at herself...perhaps admitted to her irrational fears and made a joke out of it, thus disarming the tension slightly.

Peterson details the proper balance in life using the terms "order" and " chaos". Naturally we prefer order, but too much order is tyrranical, and distorts us. Too much chaos and we are too vague, nihilistic, without goals, without drive etc. The preferable place to be is mostly ordered, but with a foot dangling it the unknown, or chaos. This gives us excitement and a sense of mystery that is so essential to the spirit. Without it we wither. If our balance is right (and it's always calibrating itself) we can use the chaos without feeling overwhelmed by it...because we have the foundational order to accomodate it.

People without a sense of humor are tyrannically orderly. Their balance is off. This is all my opinion of course....dont mean to sound too dogmatic. A sense of humor disarms us and the people around us, and actually gives us the emotional courage to dangle our foot into the chaos a little more. So it's a very real tool, and just as important if not more than the others. It's the mark of emotional maturity...of a person is willing to not play it so safe...and a person who is willing to laugh at their sensitivities instead of being "triggered" by them (God I hate that f#cking word lol)

[AutumnW]

I am currently financially and emotionally supporting someone who is really down on his luck. I am happy to do this, but...here is the thing. He has a history of insensitive behavior to others. At the same time he is acutely sensitive himself.

This is a really nasty combination that I can tolerate up to a point -- but find it really hard to deal with now because, as he is miserable it is more pronounced.

I really love this individual and he REALLY needs my help right now but that kind of sensitivity is really hard to take.

[AutumnW]

How the overly sensitive manage to function is a miracle to me. If a movie throws them an emotional curve ball, they can't get over, what would they do in an actual real life catastrophe, like an unexpected death of a loved one, having to witness a very bad traffic accident??

I hate to say it but people who are that sensitive, I find kind of repulsive. In a stressful situation that demands courage, or watching out for you, as a friend for instance, you know they will throw you under a bus rather than experience any major discomfort.

This kind of sensitivity is not commendable in any way. People who are simply extremely cowardly hot house orchids perhaps shouldn't be redeemed with the catch-all definition of "being sensitive" which has a high minded, effete, artistic connotations.

[DNA]

I am currently financially and emotionally supporting someone who is really down on his luck. I am happy to do this, but...here is the thing. He has a history of insensitive behavior to others. At the same time he is acutely sensitive himself.

This is a really nasty combination that I can tolerate up to a point -- but find it really hard to deal with now because, as he is miserable it is more pronounced.

I really love this individual and he REALLY needs my help right now but that kind of sensitivity is really hard to take.

I've had experience with folks like this. It is sensitivity with little or no empathy. I have a family member like this.
I could never understand the contradiction because she is so sensitive in so far as having her feelings hurt but she has little empathy when it comes to understanding her actions having a negative emotional effect on others. I feel your pain this is a tuff one.

[DNA]

In so far as movies are concerned, I'm going to have to disagree with what folks are saying here in terms of not understanding their affects.
Movies, especially when viewed in a movie theater can have a powerful affect.
Frank Zappa states that "Hollywood is the entertainment arm of the Pentagon". So if for that reason alone we should probably be a little careful with what we watch.
I personally do not watch horror movies anymore. I mean "Shawn of the Dead" is freaking hilarious and as such I wouldn't really classify it as a true horror movie.
"Evil Dead 2" is kind of in the same vein, only much better in my opinion.
They remade "Evil Dead" a few years ago and hoping it was going to have some of the same comedic devices that made Sam Raime's cult classic so good I went ahead and began watching it. Big mistake. This movie floated around in my psyche and mind for way to long after watching only a portion of it.

I'm a sensitive and empathic individual, I feel the pain of others. It does me no good what so ever to watch people portrayed in extreme psychological and physical agony. Regardless if it is "just" a movie, the pain portrayed hits home for me.

My next statement I don't expect anyone to believe, but if you could suspend disbelief for a moment you might understand where I'm coming from.
My empathy and sensitivity combined with practicing the certain techniques from the aforementioned author Carlos Castaneda allowed me to see ghosts as a young man. As a thirty one year old I was not quite completely good at turning this ability off at will. A girl I had began dating at this time wanted to see the movie "The Grudge" when it was playing at theaters. BIG mistake on my part. My date was enjoying the movie immensely so I couldn't even leave after I saw it was something I probably shouldn't be watching. A big part of my work life was working alone in a large corporate building at the time. Scenes from the movie would randomly play through my head at work, all alone and ghosts would use this tid-bit and play along acting the part of the antagonists from the movie. This was not a good time for me. :lalala:


Just my 2 cents. :nerd:

[Ewan]

If I may add some conjecture, someone who is acutely sensitive is not necessarily sensitive in a good way.

Both the people you, (DNA and AutumnW), describe could equally be exhibiting all the signs of emotional immaturity. Supporting these people without challenging their behaviour is not actually helping at all.

I repeat, mere conjecture, I do not know the people. Just something to consider.

[AutumnW]

DNA,

Mine is family member as well. Really tough.

And no, your story isn't at all weird. Or maybe it's weird but believable about the ghosts. And maybe some of these individuals I have just unkindly used the blanket term 'cowardly' to describe are people who are separated from the astral realm by a much thinner membrane. To myself and others, a super sensitive triggered reaction to a movie seems ridiculous. But that might be judging some of them too superficially.

Thanks so much for your perspective and personal revelation here. It helps to provide a more rounded out picture of the super sensitive. It may be part of a larger supernatural phenomenon.

[AutumnW]

If I may add some conjecture, someone who is acutely sensitive is not necessarily sensitive in a good way.

Both the people you, (DNA and AutumnW), describe could equally be exhibiting all the signs of emotional immaturity. Supporting these people without challenging their behaviour is not actually helping at all.

I repeat, mere conjecture, I do not know the people. Just something to consider.

Thank you Ewan. You are right. I don't know why some people are arrested in early adolescence and supporting them emotionally is usually enabling. If they are covertly manipulative, even more so. I have had to withdraw emotional support to my family member recently, but I won't cut him off financially, not when he is sick and disturbed. These types often end up in a world of pain as they get older. It's pretty tragic.

[onawah]

I have been super sensitive at times in my life, in particular times when I was meditating a lot and doing other spiritual practices. ( For example, I lived at a Zen Center in a remote area for a year in my 20s, where we meditated for hours every day.)
Zen meditation can definitely make one more sensitive, in both good and bad ways, if we are defining bad as being unable to control aversion.
In my experience, it can help make people more sensitive in good ways in that they generally become more intuitive, more clairvoyant, with enhanced ability to heal, to empathize, etc.
The year at the Zen Center, spending time in close connection to Nature and in close community with others, in high, altered states of consciousness was the best, most joyful and healing year of my life in many ways.
On the other hand the initial stages of returning to mainstream life was actually quite traumatic for me.
Whether sensitivity is an advantage or not is very much a matter of perspective and circumstance.
However, attachment and aversion are both states that someone on a traditional spiritual path aspires to transcend.
Emotional sensitivity can be made more acute by physical injury.
Our subtle energetic bodies interpenetrate with our grosser energy bodies and they affect each other.
So even a physically heroic person can be turned into an emotional wreck if they suffer enough physical injury.

[Daozen]

I don't watch horror movies much either. Not cos I'm a scaredy cat, but because I think they unecessarily poison the heart/mind of the collective consciousness, and tie our psyche in knots. Nightmare on Elm Street makes you afraid of dreams, Mirrors will make you scared of mirrors...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirrors_(film)

Jaws will make you scared of the ocean. In small doses they are good fun, but I wonder if a diet of horror has polluted the subconscious of many people, making them afraid to explore the esoteric side of life, and too scared to realize their dreams.

I watched The Shining when I was 13-14. Those twins gave me nightmares for years. I still think its an amazing film, but I find it hard to watch the whole thing alone. Don't Look Now, a 70s chiller set in Venice, likewise stayed in my mind for 10 years after watching it. But those stories about people being terrified are a little over the top.

The good side of sensitive is that music can take you higher than it would a "non-sensitive" person.

*

Monetizing sensitivity? Check out Slack, worth nearly 3 billion last time I checked. They took an IRC clone, an ugly looking ascii chat app used by hackers.... They changed the colors, layout, fonts, and welcome messages. From that 6 week design sprint, turning a bare bones chat application into something beautiful, they built a thriving business.


“So what’s the secret behind Slack? What did you guys do that was so special?” the voice crackled over my car’s Bluetooth, “I want you guys to do whatever you did for them.” I was on a call with a prospective client, the CEO of a successful SaaS app who wanted to hire us to redesign his product. I launched into a story that I’ve told hundreds of times.

I’ve been asked this question almost every day for the past year by clients, investors, and fellow designers trying to reverse engineer the secret behind Slack’s success. It seems like Slack is taking over the world these days, now sporting a mind-boggling $2.8 billion dollar valuation, hundreds of thousands of users, and a break-neck growth rate.

The story is here:

https://medium.com/@awilkinson/slack-s-2-8-billion-dollar-secret-sauce-5c5ec7117908

[DNA]

I don't watch horror movies much either. Not cos I'm a scaredy cat, but because I think they unecessarily poison the heart/mind of the collective consciousness,,,

You know I agree here. I was going to elaborate on certain things earlier but I didn't want to get too long winded.
Back in the nineties a friend of mine asked me why I liked "Stormship Troopers" so much but I wouldn't watch the "Saw" franchise or any number of other slasher movies, and I surprised myself with being able to voice an abstract understanding I had never articulated before.
I stated "Human on human violence especially when glorifying serial killers desensitizes people to "human on human" suffering. It desensitizes and takes away a certain ingrained ethical code not to hurt people. But monster on human violence isn't the same thing. It's a monster, he doesn't have the same ethics and it's easier to understand what is going on here".
So, just saying.

[Foxie Loxie]

Which "dog" inside you do you want to "feed"?! :dog:

[Mike]

Too safe, too sensitive....too nice.

Excessive niceness is just as toxic and unproductive as it's opposite... and just as harmful. The result may not be as immediate, but it will arrive nonetheless.

Excessive niceness suggests agreeableness. Someone who is excessively nice is likely afraid of conflict or controversy of any sort, and will avoid it like the plague - even if it's something they know will multiply several fold and return later to bite them if they don't deal with it now. Being too nice is being too weak.

People that are too nice will not be honest with you - they fear the consequences. And you can't be honest with them either, if you're interested in remaining friends. They will shy away from anything that makes them uncomfortable.

The most profound growth usually happens in moments of discomfort. If you are surrounded by people who are afraid of discomfort, you will never grow.

Deep down, we all know this. When we don't want to be challenged, we choose weak company. We do this mostly subconsciously. But it's ultimately unproductive and mind-numbingly boring. Consider the myth of the woman who says she "just wants to meet a nice guy." Well that bullsh!t, of course. She may want to meet a "nice guy" after a tough break up for a shoulder to cry on, but the second a more interesting, confident man arrives (the "bad boy") she'll drop the "nice" guy in an instant.

This isn't as superficial as it seems. It just seems that way because of the language we choose to use. If we replace "nice" with "weak", and replace "bad boy" with "strong" it all makes sense. For all his faults, the so called "bad boy" is much more honest and open about them then the comparatively disingenuous "nice guy". He actually has more character than the "nice guy", and is therefore more attractive.

Too nice, too safe, too sensitive...
Peterson says in the interview posted earlier in this thread, "In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive." How true. If we never risk being offensive, we will never be able to productively think!...

..Therefore, excessive niceness is ultimately tyrannical.

Take Avalon, for example - I'll take an aggressively trollish, boorish type over an excessively nice member any day. Both are ultimately corrupting influences, but the troll will give you more honesty.

Some of my old friends met me and my girlfriend in St Augustine this week. It had been a while since we'd all been in one place together. We picked up right where we left off, busting each others balls mercilessly. Nothing is sacred in this group of guys - divorces, deaths, suicide attempts...you name it. It's a ruthless group, and if you can't keep up, you'll get eviscerated pretty quick...

...and I got eviscerated. I couldn't keep up. And I have to tell you, it was a horrible feeling. I'd lost something, clearly. Some time ago - on the advice of an ex - i decided to be nicer, more kind...not so caustic etc. And I worked on it daily. It worked a little too well. I got too nice, too sensitive, too safe... As I said earlier in the thread, your weaknesses will come find you, no matter how hard you try to hide from them; well they found me this week. Pretty quickly I realized that I hadn't gotten nice, I'd gotten weak, I'd gotten slow... (in my defense, i found my legs a couple days in and held my own pretty well:))

This isn't a suggestion to be unkind or discourteous. We should always be striving to be good to each other...but not if it's disingenuous or at the expense of our character or our ability to think and share honestly

[RunningDeer]

Too safe, too sensitive....too nice.

Excessive niceness is just as toxic and unproductive as it's opposite... and just as harmful. The result may not be as immediate, but it will arrive nonetheless.

Well that bullsh!t, of course. She may want to meet a "nice guy" after a tough break up for a shoulder to cry on, but the second a more interesting, confident man arrives (the "bad boy") she'll drop the "nice" guy in an instant.

Mike, there's lots of ground covered in your post. I'll touch on a few themes: bad boys and courage to step out of your comfort zone.

I’ve participated in a couple of outward bounds, one of which included the fire walk. I watched bad boys break down in some of the activities where they had to rely on others; some declined to participate the blindfold exercise in the woods.

The bad boys thrived on competition. They excelled on the acrobatics and climbs. Kudos to one when he conquered his fear of trust and fell backwards into the arms of the group from a height of 4’-5’. It took a bit of convincing for him to let go. The natural release of tension brought out cathartic sobs as he rocked in a cradle of tightly woven arms. His bad boy buddies passed on that activity.

In hindsight, those outward bounds were nothing compared to some of the stuff of real life. We’re strong. Reminders every now and again keeps us fit in spirit, thought and body.

Too safe, too sensitive....too nice? My preference is walk the path of integrity. Live and continue to grow in the highest standards of propriety. No trespassing on others nor violate minds or personal space. Same in return.

♡

[RunningDeer]

Which "dog" inside you do you want to "feed"?! :dog:


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/monster-smile2.gifWhich Wolf Wins?http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/monster-dance.gif


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Empower/Wolf-yin-yang.jpg

♡

[Ernie Nemeth]

Yes, it has made me uncomfortable.

I took your advise, I unblocked you. :waving:

[Mike]

Yes, it has made me uncomfortable.

I took your advise, I unblocked you. :waving:



OMG, this post has made the whole thread worth it!:thumbsup:

Ernie, I appreciate your honesty. My ego never once allowed me to think that any of those people that might be blocked was me! Oh the irony:ROFL:.

This is a small breakthrough. I've made you a little uncomfortable, and you've humbled me a little. I like it. See now we're sticking our feet just slightly more out into the chaos. It's a worthwhile risk. We're all a bit too orderly in the name of "keeping the peace", or protecting sensitivities or playing it a bit too safe.

There's always the risk that if we're a bit too honest with each other, things will get worse. That is a very real possibility. But if we don't display honesty now, all those things we are subtly lying about will inevitably destroy us later. So let's give it a shot. Like your sig says "why not?"

Now, just like there are "white lies", there are also "black truths". A black truth is just as bad as a white lie. What is a black truth? It's an honest statement about someone that is indeed true, but more an ego boost to the accuser than a genuine attempt to help. This is the ego centered "tell it like it is guy" we've all run up against in our lives. This is a suboptimal way of operating, and not at all what I'm suggesting.

So, this honesty I speak of is layered - it's just not as simple as going around and calling people (or ourselves) out on sh!t. It requires thoughtfulness and subtlety in many instances. Where there's room to be gentle, we should always exploit it. Humor is a wonderful tool too, demonstrated perfectly by Ernie here.

There's an art to all this. We all have a *personal responsibility* to be artists. Really!

[Mike]

Too safe, too sensitive....too nice? My preference is walk the path of integrity. Live and continue to grow in the highest standards of propriety. No trespassing on others nor violate minds or personal space. Same in return.


Yep, I hear you. And thanks for the thoughtful post:sun:

I would most associate integrity with honesty. Like I was saying above, I don't think people that are excessively nice are capable of honesty. They tend to keep things on a safe, non-threatening level. Anything that threatens that, like honesty, is sort of taboo.

People that are too nice are generally too sensitive. And being so fragile, they cannot and will not hear or say anything that will upset that fragile equilibrium.

And finally, as a result of all this, they play it too safe.

So, with honesty out the door - honesty with themselves and others - integrity sort of gets thrown out the window in favor of a burnt out, safe, tranquil stagnation.

By the way, I'm not suggesting everyone look around for people to tag and label with these things. I'm encouraging everyone to look in the mirror at themselves - especially me!

This is important: I'm writing these posts to me, mainly, as a reminder (God i hope this doesn't come off as pontificating!) If we don't articulate our ideas, we're essentially formless. I do this best by writing about them. So every time i post on this stuff, i add a new structure to organize my thoughts and feelings, and it gets more cohesive. But I can't stress this enough - this is basically an open letter to myself. I'm telling myself, by creating structure through language, how I want to improve me.

So like Paula said so eloquently, there's no trespassing intended, nor intrusions into others' space suggested. Above all else I'm stressing personal responsibility first. Improving the world starts with the individual, imo

[Ernie Nemeth]

I observed in my mother this ability to flip a switch and turn off normal etiquette. She could be scathing when she wanted to be, brutally honest - from her point of view, and not too rational either. I learned to override my sensibilities and do like she does, flip the switch - sometimes it gets stuck...

[Hym]

It is NICE, and maybe kinda saintly, to kick the crap out of a jerk, a meme, a political agenda that has worked too hard not to be rewarded with reciprocity. Just as well, it's not nice or kind for me to clean up the shyte that comes out...or the blood left behind.

I am a grey wolf in the brotherhood of wolves, having a tea...meditating...
While a step and a half into another world, in a diner just across the road...
I see jesus, mohammed and buddha arguing about who's gonna pay the bill...
Ya'll know what I'd say to them about their sensitivities and the entrails of the inhumanities still alive, bearing their names....

Recently I've been listening to the stories of those oppressed in the field of work that's employed me in the last few years, a natural role for me it seems, in the manner suited to my nature of honesty, coinciding with my name. However, I have realized how ill-equipted I am for the task at hand of listening, compiling the facts, suggesting solutions and mediating a justice as it should be done.

I am surely qualified to evaluate abuses and in the process of listening, absorbing the essence of the emotional, physical, social an economic damages done to the victims. I am even balanced in my dispensation of equitable justice....all necessary for both the abused and the abuser to move ahead in their lives. However, I don't abuse people, no matter who they are, so I do not have the perspective of being in the energetic that created the problems. All that abusers see in me is someone who they dare not F##k with. They know that the reward is embarrassment or injury, things never the impetus to abuse others.

After this process started I insisted that we call part of the process reconciliation. Because of this insistence I was pleased to hear the unsolicited and honest admonitions of those who had abused their fellow workers. In listening I realized that this position was not my place, but the earned and correct place of those who knew well the processes that the abuser creates. Sure, most of those abusers can trace their abuse to a history of being abused, in both familial and workplace experiences, but their spoken histories of being confronted and then confronting themselves seemed to be healing for both parties. Even after volunteering, like a few others have, I see this is not my world.

I now daily work to separate myself from the process in an industry, primarily in this state, that has blacklisted me and others for having a strong moral history, and one that offers me no guarantee for income in the future. (Silly me thinking, even for a fleeting moment, that because of the outing of abusive men, and a few abusive women, I would be offered some work for having put my livelihood at great risk, now proven to have been affected by blacklisting, for refusing to allow abuse in our workplaces.) Moving on.

A voice of clarity, neither nice nor safe, reminds me....

House the deaf near the noise of airports, if you care. They won't complain.

Clothe the blind in the best colors that funk has found, discarded by those with their puffed up sense of fashion. They will offer no objection to the gifts of quality and the feel of luxury.

Assign the tasks of listening to all of the chalk board narratives of moral criminals to the criminals themselves....for they have earned the pain that these righteous revelations inflict.

With the council of the best of friends I too listen.....
And I'm still taking the brakes off of my bike in order to create the challenge that my soul requires....but not in the company of others.

[Mike]

you're a poet, Hym. excellent post:happythumbsup:

[RunningDeer]

Yes, it has made me uncomfortable.

I took your advise, I unblocked you. :waving:

Ernie, thanks for the reminder. While I was at it, I unblocked you.http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/come-from-behind.gif



http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Fantasy_Fun/ignore.jpg


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/wave.gif
http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Fantasy_Fun/kidding.jpg

[AutumnW]

Too safe, too sensitive....too nice.

Excessive niceness is just as toxic and unproductive as it's opposite... and just as harmful. The result may not be as immediate, but it will arrive nonetheless.

Excessive niceness suggests agreeableness. Someone who is excessively nice is likely afraid of conflict or controversy of any sort, and will avoid it like the plague - even if it's something they know will multiply several fold and return later to bite them if they don't deal with it now. Being too nice is being too weak.

People that are too nice will not be honest with you - they fear the consequences. And you can't be honest with them either, if you're interested in remaining friends. They will shy away from anything that makes them uncomfortable.

The most profound growth usually happens in moments of discomfort. If you are surrounded by people who are afraid of discomfort, you will never grow.

Deep down, we all know this. When we don't want to be challenged, we choose weak company. We do this mostly subconsciously. But it's ultimately unproductive and mind-numbingly boring. Consider the myth of the woman who says she "just wants to meet a nice guy." Well that bullsh!t, of course. She may want to meet a "nice guy" after a tough break up for a shoulder to cry on, but the second a more interesting, confident man arrives (the "bad boy") she'll drop the "nice" guy in an instant.

This isn't as superficial as it seems. It just seems that way because of the language we choose to use. If we replace "nice" with "weak", and replace "bad boy" with "strong" it all makes sense. For all his faults, the so called "bad boy" is much more honest and open about them then the comparatively disingenuous "nice guy". He actually has more character than the "nice guy", and is therefore more attractive.

Too nice, too safe, too sensitive...
Peterson says in the interview posted earlier in this thread, "In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive." How true. If we never risk being offensive, we will never be able to productively think!...

..Therefore, excessive niceness is ultimately tyrannical.

Take Avalon, for example - I'll take an aggressively trollish, boorish type over an excessively nice member any day. Both are ultimately corrupting influences, but the troll will give you more honesty.

Some of my old friends met me and my girlfriend in St Augustine this week. It had been a while since we'd all been in one place together. We picked up right where we left off, busting each others balls mercilessly. Nothing is sacred in this group of guys - divorces, deaths, suicide attempts...you name it. It's a ruthless group, and if you can't keep up, you'll get eviscerated pretty quick...

...and I got eviscerated. I couldn't keep up. And I have to tell you, it was a horrible feeling. I'd lost something, clearly. Some time ago - on the advice of an ex - i decided to be nicer, more kind...not so caustic etc. And I worked on it daily. It worked a little too well. I got too nice, too sensitive, too safe... As I said earlier in the thread, your weaknesses will come find you, no matter how hard you try to hide from them; well they found me this week. Pretty quickly I realized that I hadn't gotten nice, I'd gotten weak, I'd gotten slow... (in my defense, i found my legs a couple days in and held my own pretty well:))

This isn't a suggestion to be unkind or discourteous. We should always be striving to be good to each other...but not if it's disingenuous or at the expense of our character or our ability to think and share honestly

I think, Mike, a clear distinction should be made between kindness and niceness. Women LOVE kind men, at least I do, but abhor "nice" men because it feels slimy, like a manipulation.

One thing a lot of 'bad boys' have in common is they often have fantastic senses of humour. Women like that. They aren't boring!

[Ewan]

Women LOVE kind men, at least I do, but abhor "nice" men because it feels slimy, like a manipulation.

One thing a lot of 'bad boys' have in common is they often have fantastic senses of humour. Women like that. They aren't boring!

Isn't that perception, kind Vs nice, an individual one?

Though I do understand your point I find this to be yet another example of the limitations of language.

I remember a time when a lot of women would respond with a smile to something so crude, (by todays standards), as a wolf-whistle, or the 'toot' of a horn from a passing driver.

The guys were saying 'You look great!'. The girls were saying 'Thank you!'.

It brought a smile to both faces. The male was saying 'you look fine', the female response of a smile said 'thank you' and that produced a grin in the male too.

--

Why did women start wearing make-up? Why does everything have to get so goddamn complicated. Girls like guys, guys like girls. End of story.

Not trying to pull your post apart AutumnW, I really do understand what you are saying, but, 100 years ago, wasn't the slimy guy still there, just picking up the young and niave? Nothing has really changed except the agenda of what we are supposed to find acceptable or not acceptable.

PS: What does the 'W' stand for in 'AutumnW'?

[Mike]

Good point Autumn! A distinction definitely needs to be made.

Would you please do it? Haha! I'm struggling with that one a little.

Well I think niceness is often insecurity masquerading as niceness. That might be a good place to start.

To be clear, I much prefer kindness. And genuinely nice people! But people that do have your best interests at heart will not let kindness get in the way of blasting you with a blunt truth you may need to hear, right?

So in this sense, kindness (or what we think of as kindness) can be a detriment to growth.

[AutumnW]

Niceness is often a form of obsequiousness, agreeableness, that isn't sincere. The intent is to curry favor, to have people like you.

A kind person operates from a premise of strength and forbearance because they like and care about others. That is their primary consideration -- not motivated primarily by a desire to have people like them.

[AutumnW]

Women LOVE kind men, at least I do, but abhor "nice" men because it feels slimy, like a manipulation.

One thing a lot of 'bad boys' have in common is they often have fantastic senses of humour. Women like that. They aren't boring!

Isn't that perception, kind Vs nice, an individual one?

Though I do understand your point I find this to be yet another example of the limitations of language.

I remember a time when a lot of women would respond with a smile to something so crude, (by todays standards), as a wolf-whistle, or the 'toot' of a horn from a passing driver.

The guys were saying 'You look great!'. The girls were saying 'Thank you!'.

It brought a smile to both faces. The male was saying 'you look fine', the female response of a smile said 'thank you' and that produced a grin in the male too.

--

Why did women start wearing make-up? Why does everything have to get so goddamn complicated. Girls like guys, guys like girls. End of story.

Not trying to pull your post apart AutumnW, I really do understand what you are saying, but, 100 years ago, wasn't the slimy guy still there, just picking up the young and niave? Nothing has really changed except the agenda of what we are supposed to find acceptable or not acceptable.

PS: What does the 'W' stand for in 'AutumnW'?

You know, it all depends on who is whistling. What some men don't realize is women, particularly attractive women, sometimes feel overwhelmed and intimidated by attention from strangers. When I was young I was sexually attacked by a stranger, while hitchhiking. So somebody driving by and wolf whistling would have scared me.

[Innocent Warrior]

Life is not safe. You will not get out of it alive.

Well that certainly puts things into perspective. :)


If you do not train yourself to temper your sensitivity and fears and need for excessive safety, the world will do it for you eventually...only 100x harsher

I’m facing a fear by writing the following because i dread sympathy and shame, but this bit of knowledge is too much of a gem not to share.

When I was a child i was determined to minimise the impact of the frequent beatings I got from one of my parents. From that determination arose the idea to prepare for the beatings by inducing the state of being beaten myself.

i would imagine being beaten. I’d also take myself to the state of fear, like not knowing how far it would escalate, the desperation of trying to stay conscious when I could see stars and my legs were buckling. I’d work myself up in this way and then face the beating, fully present. This is the opposite to going to a safe place in your mind and it works.

The effect was that the beatings no longer hurt at all and I was able to recover to my full resting state in a matter of seconds after the beating. By inducing the state myself I was in control of the effects.

The only time it hurt after that was when the incidents were worse than I anticipated and I hadn’t sufficiently matched the state. This is why the world teaching you is much worse, it’s unexpected and you’re not sufficiently conditioned or prepared.

I was very young, if a little girl can do that, anyone can.

The key to being fearless is to become the ringmaster of your emotions.

[DeDukshyn]

Life is not safe. You will not get out of it alive.

Well that certainly puts things into perspective. :)


If you do not train yourself to temper your sensitivity and fears and need for excessive safety, the world will do it for you eventually...only 100x harsher

I’m facing a fear by writing the following because i dread sympathy and shame, but this bit of knowledge is too much of a gem not to share.

When I was a child i was determined to minimise the impact of the frequent beatings I got from one of my parents. From that determination arose the idea to prepare for the beatings by inducing the state of being beaten myself.

i would imagine being beaten. I’d also take myself to the state of fear, like not knowing how far it would escalate, the desperation of trying to stay conscious when I could see stars and my legs were buckling. I’d work myself up in this way and then face the beating, fully present. This is the opposite to going to a safe place in your mind and it works.

The effect was that the beatings no longer hurt at all and I was able to recover to my full resting state in a matter of seconds after the beating. By inducing the state myself I was in control of the effects.

The only time it hurt after that was when the incidents were worse than I anticipated and I hadn’t sufficiently matched the state. This is why the world teaching you is much worse, it’s unexpected and you’re not sufficiently conditioned or prepared.

I was very young, if a little girl can do that, anyone can.

The key to being fearless is to become the ringmaster of your emotions.

Interesting you discovered that as a child ... I took a course once - The Landmark Forum, and they actually taught pretty much this exact technique for dealing with anything that causes you pain - physical or otherwise. You were to spend at least five minutes enveloping yourself completely in the thing causing you pain, feel it 10x more than it would normally hurt and just go through that - focus on it with all your inner imagination and feeling it through your body - five full minutes. It actually does work - even for relieving physical pain like a headache.

And yes I agree that this puts you back over top of your emotions and other feelings rather then being a victim to them.

[Valerie Villars]

Mike, I have been following this thread because I liked the intent, the thoughtfulness, the honesty and the discussion. It's a really good thread.

I identify a lot with what Rachel said. I used to get beat too. I remember one time this guy complimented me and I guess I downplayed it a bit because I always saw my faults and not my good qualities. So he asked me "Did you get beat as a child?"

He looked kind of stunned when I said "Yes". But, It taught me a lot. To be fair, the beatings stopped after the parent acknowledged his behavior through counseling and changed it. Back then, being beaten with a belt was kind of normal.

A really nice thread. Thanks.

[Mike]

Mike, I have been following this thread because I liked the intent, the thoughtfulness, the honesty and the discussion. It's a really good thread.

I identify a lot with what Rachel said. I used to get beat too. I remember one time this guy complimented me and I guess I downplayed it a bit because I always saw my faults and not my good qualities. So he asked me "Did you get beat as a child?"

He looked kind of stunned when I said "Yes". But, It taught me a lot. To be fair, the beatings stopped after the parent acknowledged his behavior through counseling and changed it. Back then, being beaten with a belt was kind of normal.

A really nice thread. Thanks.



Hey Val, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread:)

I have what will seem like a pretty weird question, and I hope Rach you will answer this too. The question is this: if you could go back in time and erase those terrible experiences, would you?

I was speaking to a paraplegic today, who told me if God approached him today and offered to undo all the damage and restore his ability to walk, he'd politely decline. It was hard for me to believe, but the man seemed sincere. He explained that the injury to his neck and the resulting disability taught him a lesson he could have never possibly learned in any other way, which was basically to seize the day and live every moment to the fullest.

It's easy for that type of stuff to sound trite, but when it's coming from the mouth of a paraplegic it really hits home. Since his car accident at 17 and resulting injury, this guy has sky dived 18 times, swam with sharks on multiple occasions, written a book, been a passenger in a russian mig that did all sorts of acrobatic stuff, given motivational speeches to large numbers of people, met various luminaries from the world of politics and sport, and on and on it goes...(his name is John Kirchner. he has a book available on amazon called "roll with me". talked with him for over an hour today. fascinating man.)

...anyway, he kept insisting that he was thrilled with the way his life had gone, and wouldn't change a thing..

wow!

Surely he wouldn't have volunteered to be a paraplegic at 17, but what at first seemed like a tragic event has given him all these wonderful opportunities.

And life does this - it forces difficult or even tragic events onto us, and in a way forces us to sink or swim. Rach that technique you used as a little girl sound borderline shamanic. As horrifying as your experiences were back then, it may just have been the only way you could have learned to do such an amazing thing. And the ramifications of that, the path it sent you on and so forth...I wonder if there was any other way for that to occur without those horrible beatings?

Tragic events like these create enormous amounts of energy and potential nothing else can, it seems. In this way it can represent an opportunity. What will we do this newly created energy? Let it traumitize us? Render us antisocial and nihilistic? Or will we use it as rocket fuel towards transformative change? We can either use these events as an excuse to remain the same, or we can use the resulting energy created to propel ourselves forward

I maintain that we actually have a personal responsibility to do the latter. It takes vigilant diligence, but it's the only sane response to the unbelievable burden of being. This is the art of living, in my view.

[Mike]

Cont...

As bad as life can be sometimes, I believe it is a privilege to be here. And as such, we have to - in a way - justify our existence. If we don't at least try to do what we came here to do, we're dishonoring ourselves and everyone around us; we're disrespecting life itself. And life has a way of responding to that in an undesirable way. You can't just loaf around here and disrespect this opportunity, because then you're just another body taking a dump that winds up in a river every day. You're essentially useless.

When things get bad, people have a tendency to say "well, f#ck it. I give up. Can't get any worse than this..."

it can always get worse

And if you get nihilistic, and give up on life and yourself, it will. And then these same people who threw up their arms and sorta quit, will start saying things like "the universe is out to get me", "my luck is horrible" etc...

When in reality what really happened was that they forfeited their personal responsibility to improve. Life then becomes disordered, chaos ensues, and things begin spiralling out of control.

People who enjoy drama enjoy it because they exploit it as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility. Things then get inevitably worse, which serves as proof to these types that the universe is indeed against them, and justifies their excuse to quit in the first place. As things get worse and worse, their nihilism grows, and instead of motivating them to get out of the situation, it becomes more of an excuse to stay in it.

These are the most sensitive types of people. Why? Because they don't want to hear anything about reality. It might force them to act, or feel some sense of personal responsibility or even shame, and they've become too comfortable in their denials. They've played it too safe for too long They are firecely determined to stay in this bubble...but ultimately the world will come along and burst it. And not having prepared themselves in any way, they will suffer mightily.

...and this suffering will either continue to enforce a sense of victimhood, or inspire one to take personal responsibility for ones life and break the vicious cycle.

[Innocent Warrior]

Interesting you discovered that as a child ... I took a course once - The Landmark Forum, and they actually taught pretty much this exact technique for dealing with anything that causes you pain - physical or otherwise. You were to spend at least five minutes enveloping yourself completely in the thing causing you pain, feel it 10x more than it would normally hurt and just go through that - focus on it with all your inner imagination and feeling it through your body - five full minutes. It actually does work - even for relieving physical pain like a headache.

And yes I agree that this puts you back over top of your emotions and other feelings rather then being a victim to them.

Awesome, I was concerned readers would find it difficult to believe it’s possible, thank you.

After a while I didn’t need to do that anymore and I’d just go into that mode automatically. I don’t know how long that took, not long though.

The effect is much like morphine, if I focussed on it I could still feel the pain but it didn’t hurt or bother me at all. One day when I was much older, about 15, he beat me in my bedroom. A family friend who I really liked was visiting at the time and was in the lounge room, so I went to the lounge room immediately after I recovered.

As I entered the lounge room everyone’s face became horrified as they stared at me, I was bleeding but had no idea. It wasn’t until I looked for what they were staring at that I felt any pain at all.

The following all happened in a second or so. I had grabbed my face at some point, I looked at my hand, saw that it was covered in blood, then I looked down and saw the blood on my shirt and then traced the droplets leading to my bedroom and thought WTF is that, and only then did I begin to feel the burning sensation of the pain on my face. I actually needed visual clues to figure out what was going on, so I can confirm it is absolutely effective for physical pain.

I didn't learn this from the circumstances being discussed here (it was an accident) but I should add that there is a limit to this method. Some things are just too excruciating to be able to stay present. At a point you are forced to go somewhere else, there's nothing you can do about that and you wouldn't want to, it's a good thing. I don't know if you can still feel the pain or not in that place but you at least can't remember it.


I have what will seem like a pretty weird question, and I hope Rach you will answer this too. The question is this: if you could go back in time and erase those terrible experiences, would you?

If you’d asked me that question five years or so ago I probably would have told you I wish I was never born. The human spirit is brilliantly resilient, however, evidently, the human mind and body has its limits, there’s only so much it can take. That’s OK because after enough experience you learn when it needs to rest and heal but sometimes that can take a lot of time, especially if you’ve had a very difficult experience. It gets exhausted and if you don’t allow it time to heal it will break down. I was my own teacher so I learned the hard way. I foolishly came to believe I was invincible and life taught me otherwise.

Now I see my life as two distinctly separate chapters and I see the first chapter as preparation. I had to let everything in my life go, people, dreams, beliefs, everything, and then I started from scratch and my life is about completely different things now. That takes time too, it’s very challenging but my life is what I make of it now, so my answer to your question now is a definite no, I wouldn’t erase a moment.

For the longest time I just wanted to go home, until I learned that being at home is a state of being. Now I figure that if I can be at home here I can be at home anywhere. The opportunity here for growth is stupendous. I think what is common with very sensitive people is that we feel we don’t belong here because we don’t fit in, we’re not of this world but have to live in it. But it’s a mistake to equate that to not belonging here, we all belong here just as much as anyone else, we just have to walk our own paths to see it. That’s a necessity or we’re experientially just doing time until we pass.


Rach that technique you used as a little girl sound borderline shamanic. As horrifying as your experiences were back then, it may just have been the only way you could have learned to do such an amazing thing. And the ramifications of that, the path it sent you on and so forth...I wonder if there was any other way for that to occur without those horrible beatings?

Very true.

I never thought about any of it at the time, I didn’t think it was anything significant to think about. I was just being me, got the idea, didn’t even think about whether it would work or not, and just did it. When it worked I was amazed but mostly was just happy that it did, it made my life a lot easier.

I did always know that I was aware of things that the people around me weren’t aware of though. I experienced far more fantastic things than what is being discussed here, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I reflected on it and gave it much thought. Now nothing holds my attention and captures my heart more than the mechanics of life, that is my passion.

You may not like this next bit, Mike, but I have to say it because I sense it so strongly. I am a very sensitive person and as much as I’d like to at times I’d never try to temper my sensitivity and I don’t think anyone should. It’s a strength, all the way, it just seems like it’s not because it’s very challenging.

Rather than tempering it, see it as a strength (difficult because things hurt so much more) and dig deeper with it, like I did with physical pain, trust that your will or right attitude will give rise to ideas, strategies etc. and that your sensitivity will see you through. I’m quite certain that idea was an inspiration received from my greater Self. I also suspect the effect was so powerful because I was sensitive enough to feel it strongly enough in my body when I took myself there. I owe a lot to my sensitivity, I could go on for pages.

It is very important to respect the boundaries set by physical limitations (not forgetting the capacity for rejuvenation). Your advice is excellent, given the right person at the right time. At the wrong time it could bury them deeper or just make them angry. You could be looking at the most miserable, apparently weak looking person in front of you, not realising you stand before one of the most powerful and resilient people you’ve ever met, who really needs a big long rest right now, years if necessary. A very sensitive person who’s gone through an unbelievably difficult experience, you just never know, life can be very complex, as you know.

[onawah]

According to the Michael Teachings (http://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_age_index.html ) which I have always found to be a great descriptive tool (though words always fail at some point and we must never take them too literally, especially when it comes to subject matter that is so cosmic in scope) ...there are souls at all different stages of advancement on our world, from infant on up to old.
( Also some soulless beings, apparently, and non-human souls, but that's another discussion.)
Every level will develop different strengths and weaknesses, and every step along the way is useful in our full development as human beings.
Sometimes we choose to experience a weakness so as to be better able to understand and help a similar weakness in others.
Courage and sensitivity are two great strengths to have.
They may not necessarily be developed concurrently, but having them both indicates a healthy balance of human traits.
Sensitivity is as much a strength as courage is.
Too much sensitivity unbalanced by courage can lead to cowardice, too much courage unbalanced by sensitivity can lead to recklessness or even cruelty.
The more we progress, the less judgmental we will be of where others are on their journey, though that doesn't mean we won't have personal likes and dislikes, value certain traits over others.
It's all very much an individual matter.
Grandmotherly compassion is not the same thing as tough love, but both have their place.
A child may not be ready for tough love, but a grandmother's gentle, sweet touch can be just the thing at the right moment.
Other times, we may need a bracing jolt of tough love.
Gurdjieff spoke of students needing shocks at times to help wake them up, though e he said that eventually we need to learn how to provide our own shocks rather than depending on Life or a teacher to provide them.
Don Juan Matus was often seeking situations that would scare Castenada and force him to see things differently.
At other times, both teachers would provide soothing and reassurance.
I think that is what all good teachers do, and really, they are only imitating Life, which provides us with experiences of all kinds.
Good teachers just help to accelerate Life's process.
There's an interesting discussion on an old thread here on a similar vein: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36835-Grandmother-s-Compassion



Your advice is excellent, given the right person at the right time. At the wrong time it could bury them deeper or just make them angry. You could be looking at the most miserable, apparently weak looking person in front of you, not realising you stand before one of the most powerful and resilient people you’ve ever met, who really needs a big long rest right now, years if necessary. A very sensitive person who’s gone through an unbelievably difficult experience, you just never know, life can be very complex, as you know.
Very true! ::thumbsup:

[Mike]

Hey Rach, I hear you. Look I'm sensitive too, especially in matters of the heart. The written or spoken word doesn't trouble me too much, which is why i am always so puzzled when folks get so offended over what seem to be small things on forums and such. But of course everyone is different. And that's cool.

The point of the thread was to try to tie some themes together. I'll try to do that here in a coherent way.

It's not sensitivity that concerns me, it's a certain brand of *exaggerated sensitivity* that paralyzes and renders an individual sort of intellectually catatonic (and emotionally frazzled)

If one is overly sensitive, they cannot hear things that will disrupt their fragile equilibrium. Therefore, not only will they ignore wise, honest, healthy advice from others...they will lie to themselves too. They will be always censoring information .

If one cannot honestly communicate with oneself and others, then any sort of intellectual advancement is impossible. If we shut down this advancement in the name of protecting sensitivities, we do so at our own peril, imo.

Instead of catering to this toxic form of sensitivity, I'm simply suggesting we work on it. Sure, take a break. Work at your own pace, of course. Don't overwhelm. But be diligent. These are my suggestions. I've given a few examples in the thread as to how this crippling sensitivity can affect others around us as well, which is why I'm continually stressing that it is in fact our responsibility to work on it. I would go so far as to say that it would be extremely selfish of us if we didn't .

This is important I think: there are different kinds of sensitivities. Some people are just naturally empathic, and feel everything 100 times harder than the next person. These are often wonderful, loving individuals. They are able to experience the highest of emotional highs and the lowest of emotional lows. Their life lesson is to learn to control these swings, or at the very least to be aware of them so as to make them less dramatic. To ignore this responsibility is to risk enormous emotional and spiritual and intellectual distortion...or worse. So I'm simply saying, work on it. Write a song, a book. See a shrink. Go running. Meditate. Indeed we have a personal responsibility to at least try..for ourselves, others, and the world around us.

Of course there are those who won't try, and refuse to take personal responsibility for themselves. They are often what we might call "professional victims". They revel in their disempowerment. To acknowledge that they are personally responsible for their lives would require them to actually do something about it, so they avoid this and other realities like the plague....and any effort to reach them will be met with vigorous defenses.

These are the most sensitive types....not because they're kind and empathic, but because they've created elaborate fantasies and excuses to distract them from their personal responsibilities, and the last thing they want to hear is any kind of real, honest, or genuine commentary on that. It's like trying to tell a drug addict that they're addicted and they need to quit....the denial is so deep and entrenched that they just can't be reached. As a result, they are totally irrational(these are the types that will follow Corey Goode, for example. And Wilcock and Church)

We see this on forums, and we see this in our everyday lives. Personal responsibility and over sensitivity and our ability to communicate (and ultimately cognitive advancement) are all intertwined inextricably. It's all a connected matrix. That's what ive been building up to here.

[Innocent Warrior]

@Mike

Beautifully tied together, I've got it, thank you. <3

Totally agree, honesty and courage are fundamental.

[Mike]

....and once again, I want to stress that this overly sensitive person who avoids personal responsibility and has therefore communicated poorly and stunted his advancement is me.:)

I know this topic so well because I am that person.

When I read the Peterson book "12 rules for life" I recognized myself in almost every weakness he described. It was cathartic...and a bit triggering.

But it's also empowering when you realize that you can do something about it.

It excited me so much that I felt I just had to share some of the principles. I just hope my excitement hasn't come off as preachy pontificating! If it has, I'm sorry. Truly. (It just gets a bit tiring writing "imo" before every sentence lol)

It seems someone is always asking "how can we improve the forum?" Well I've always thought that if we were less sensitive and more thoughtful our communication could be much more productive (I actually wrote that down, along with other stuff, that I wanted to get at in this thread. I actually took notes before I started this thing lol. I've never done that before!)

Anyway, I highly suggest the book "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson.

[onawah]

I think the word is "defensive" not "sensitive", when describing people who cannot take criticism.
Empaths and other highly sensitive people are often overly critical of themselves, taking responsibility for others' insensitivity, overburdening themselves to the point of exhaustion.
It often ties into their ruling ethical belief system, but it can lead to great imbalance.
Thus we have individuals who "love too much".
Narcissists are the opposite--people who cannot take criticism and never accept the blame.
They are not really sensitive at all but they can be clever and manipulative enough to appear so.
Unlike empaths, they don't sense the pain of others; they are too empty and terrified of the emptiness they feel inside, so they learn to mimic sensitivity.
They prey on empaths, who give their energy away to others in attempts to heal or "fix".
The stumbling block of the empath is a kind of secret pride, thinking they can heal or fix a pathological condition such as narcissism by empathizing and being so giving.
But there is hope once they understand that self-destructive pattern and find a healthier balance, stop carrying the burdens of others, and learn to say "No".
Though they will still probably need to spend time alone and out in Nature to help recharge their energies, as they feel too much of others' pain, confusion, etc..
Whereas the narcissist will seldom seek real help because then they would have to face their own terrifying darkness.
I had some really cathartic revelations when I discovered Vital Mind Psychology at this site: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_P8aFACl-VqJl0flQPGMQQ
In particular the descriptions of the dynamics of empaths and narcissists and how they interact.
There is a related discussion here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100200-Are-You-An-Empath-11-Things-They-Hide-From-People&highlight=vital+mind+psychology
I think there is probably some narcissist and empath in all of us, but we must discuss in general terms to better understand the extremes.

[Mike]

Ah! Well said Nat!:thumbsup:

You broke that down perfectly:flower:

[Valerie Villars]

Mike, I have been following this thread because I liked the intent, the thoughtfulness, the honesty and the discussion. It's a really good thread.

I identify a lot with what Rachel said. I used to get beat too. I remember one time this guy complimented me and I guess I downplayed it a bit because I always saw my faults and not my good qualities. So he asked me "Did you get beat as a child?"

He looked kind of stunned when I said "Yes". But, It taught me a lot. To be fair, the beatings stopped after the parent acknowledged his behavior through counseling and changed it. Back then, being beaten with a belt was kind of normal.

A really nice thread. Thanks.



Hey Val, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread:)

I have what will seem like a pretty weird question, and I hope Rach you will answer this too. The question is this: if you could go back in time and erase those terrible experiences, would you?

I was speaking to a paraplegic today, who told me if God approached him today and offered to undo all the damage and restore his ability to walk, he'd politely decline. It was hard for me to believe, but the man seemed sincere. He explained that the injury to his neck and the resulting disability taught him a lesson he could have never possibly learned in any other way, which was basically to seize the day and live every moment to the fullest.

It's easy for that type of stuff to sound trite, but when it's coming from the mouth of a paraplegic it really hits home. Since his car accident at 17 and resulting injury, this guy has sky dived 18 times, swam with sharks on multiple occasions, written a book, been a passenger in a russian mig that did all sorts of acrobatic stuff, given motivational speeches to large numbers of people, met various luminaries from the world of politics and sport, and on and on it goes...(his name is John Kirchner. he has a book available on amazon called "roll with me". talked with him for over an hour today. fascinating man.)

...anyway, he kept insisting that he was thrilled with the way his life had gone, and wouldn't change a thing..

wow!

Surely he wouldn't have volunteered to be a paraplegic at 17, but what at first seemed like a tragic event has given him all these wonderful opportunities.

And life does this - it forces difficult or even tragic events onto us, and in a way forces us to sink or swim. Rach that technique you used as a little girl sound borderline shamanic. As horrifying as your experiences were back then, it may just have been the only way you could have learned to do such an amazing thing. And the ramifications of that, the path it sent you on and so forth...I wonder if there was any other way for that to occur without those horrible beatings?

Tragic events like these create enormous amounts of energy and potential nothing else can, it seems. In this way it can represent an opportunity. What will we do this newly created energy? Let it traumitize us? Render us antisocial and nihilistic? Or will we use it as rocket fuel towards transformative change? We can either use these events as an excuse to remain the same, or we can use the resulting energy created to propel ourselves forward

I maintain that we actually have a personal responsibility to do the latter. It takes vigilant diligence, but it's the only sane response to the unbelievable burden of being. This is the art of living, in my view.


No, I wouldn't change a thing. Conversely if someone had told me about all the hardship, heartache, long haul confusing tangle of my life I am sure I would have very nicely refused to come. It's a lot harder actually being here than it is on paper. And I've had some real doozies, as have many, many people. Losing my son was by far the hardest. It took me eight long years to really understand that this whole of life is just the faintest blip in eternity and to really feel that with my whole being.

And being overly sensitive is something I am very familiar with because it was a big, big thing I had to overcome which I finally did. I used to get my feelings hurt all the time until I realized someone else's bad day had nothing to do with me, once I had taken a firm hold on my own behavior. That too took a long time for me to overcome. I finally, finally realized the only person I had any autonomy over was me. I couldn't control anyone or anything besides myself.

What I'm finding now is somehow I seem to be empathetic with animals. There's always a silver lining.

[onawah]

Here is the latest talk from Vital Mind Psychology, which may apply to your perceived dilemma, Mike:

Vital Mind Psychology
Published on May 9, 2018


In this video I take a deeper look into the chief features of the internal critic or judge, especially as it relates to the empath. Having a strong internal critic is one of the key features almost all of the empaths I have worked with share. Watch the video to learn more about how the internal critic or judge operates and ways to shrink its influence.

7jhgbSQ95f8

...And perhaps some wisdom from Chogyam Trungpa may be helpful, here: Trust in Your Goodness
https://www.lionsroar.com/trust-in-your-goodness/

Instead of trying to promote or defend ourselves, says Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, we can base our lives on something more powerful and trustworthy—our basic goodness.
Look in the mirror. Appreciate yourself. You look beautiful in a simple, humble way.

Meditation practice is not an exotic or out-of-reach approach. It is immediate and personal, and it involves an intimate relationship with ourselves. It is getting to know ourselves by examining our actual psychological process without being ashamed of it.

We are often critical of ourselves to the point where we may become our own enemies. Meditation is a way of ending that quarrel by making friends with ourselves. Then we may find that we are not as bad as we thought or had been told we were.

If we label ourselves as hopeless cases or see ourselves as villains, there is no way to use our own
experience as a stepping-stone. If we take the attitude that there is something wrong with us, we must constantly look outside ourselves for something better than we are. That search can continue indefinitely, on and on and on.

In contrast to that approach, meditation is contacting our actual situation, the raw and rugged state of our mind and being. No matter what is there, we should look at it. It is similar to building a long-term friendship with someone. As part of the process of becoming friends, you get to know things that you do not like about someone, and you encounter parts of the relationship that are very uncomfortable.

Acknowledging the problems and coming to terms with them is often the foundation for a long-term friendship. Having included those things from the beginning, you won’t be shocked by them later on. Since you know all the negative aspects, you don’t have to hide from that side of the relationship. Then you can cultivate the other side, the positive side, as well. That is also a very good way to start making friends with yourself. Otherwise, you might feel surprised and cheated later on, when you discover the things that you’ve been hiding from yourself.

Whatever exists in us is a natural situation. It is another dimension of natural beauty. People sometimes go to great lengths to appreciate nature, by climbing mountains, going on safari to see giraffes and lions in Africa, or taking a cruise to Antarctica. It is much simpler and more immediate to appreciate the natural beauty of ourselves. This is actually far more beautiful than exotic flora and fauna, far more fantastic, painful, colorful, and delightful.

Meditation is extremely down to earth, irritatingly down to earth. It can also be demanding. If you stick with it, you will understand things about yourself and others, and you will gain clarity. If you practice regularly and follow this discipline, your experiences won’t necessarily be dramatic, but you will have a sense of discovering yourself. Through the down-to-earth practice of meditation you can see the colors of your own existence. The earth begins to speak to you rather than heaven sending you messages, so to speak.

We often approach life as though we were defending ourselves from an attack. Many of us, when we were growing up, were frequently reprimanded in ways that made us feel bad about ourselves. Whether the criticism came from our parents, a teacher at school, or someone else, it tended to reinforce a feeling that there was something wrong with us. Criticism often produced a feeling of isolation, a feeling of you and me, separated by a great divide. We learned many defense mechanisms at an early age, thinking that a good defense would be the best protection from further reproach.

We have continued this approach as adults. Whether it’s a confrontation with a stranger on the street or an argument with our partner in the bedroom, we believe that we need good excuses to explain ourselves and good logic to defend ourselves. We behave almost as though we were professional negotiators, our own little lawyers.

In Western psychology, some approaches stress the importance of reinforcing ego to enhance self-esteem. We may misinterpret this to mean that we should promote ourselves at the expense of others. A person may become very self-centered with this attitude. It is like you are saying to the world, “Don’t you know who I am? I am what I am. If I’m attacked for that, that’s too bad. I’m on the side of the right.” You feel justified in what you’re doing, as if you had God on your side, or at least law and order on your side.

Perhaps we should reexamine these assumptions, to see what really works. We need to investigate whether it’s beneficial to build ourselves up, especially to do so by putting others down. We need to seriously question what is harmful and what is beneficial. In my own experience, I have found that employing a self-centered approach and being constantly on the defensive are not helpful.

Rather than reinforcing our “me-ness” and justifying ourselves constantly, we should base our lives on something more powerful and trustworthy. If we develop real trust in ourselves, constant self-defense is no longer required. That may sound good, but what are we going to trust in ourselves? To begin with, we need to look within ourselves. When we look, what do we see? Ask yourself: Is there something worthwhile and trustworthy in me? Of course there is! But it’s so simple that we tend to miss it or discount it. When we look into ourselves we tend to fixate on our neurosis, restlessness, and aggression. Or we might fixate on how wonderful, accomplished, and invulnerable we are, but those feelings are usually superficial, covering up our insecurities.

Take a look. There is something else, something more than all that. We are willing: willing to wait, willing to smile, willing to be decent. We shouldn’t discount that potential, that powerful seed of gentleness. Even the most vicious animals possess natural affection and gentleness for their young. That element of gentleness exists in every being. We don’t have to be embarrassed about it or try to hide it. We don’t need to cast ourselves as bad boys and girls or as heroines or tough guys. We can afford to acknowledge and cultivate gentleness and, first of all, to treat ourselves better.

It is worth appreciating ourselves, having affection for ourselves, and taking care of ourselves. Genuineness, goodness, and appreciation are extraordinary gifts. Ultimately, that is where we place our trust. This truth is so true that we don’t have to pretend at all. It is real.

Every one of us is capable of loving ourselves. We are also capable of falling in love. We are capable of kissing our loved ones. We are capable of extending our arm to shake hands. We may offer a meal to someone, welcoming him or her to the table, saying, “Hello. How are you?” We are capable of these simple things. We’ve been performing such ordinary acts of kindness for a long time.

Generally we don’t make a big deal about this capability, but in some sense we should. We should celebrate or at least acknowledge our capacity for simple acts of generosity and gentleness. They are the real thing, and in the end they are much more powerful and transformative than aggression, egomania, and hatred.

When you appreciate yourself, you realize that you don’t have to feel wretched or condemned. You don’t have to artificially puff yourself up, either. You discover your basic dignity, which comes along with gentleness. You have always possessed this, but you may never have recognized it before. You don’t have to be an egomaniac to appreciate yourself. In fact, you appreciate yourself more when you are free of the ugliness of that egotism, which is actually based on self-hatred.

Look in the mirror. Appreciate yourself. You look beautiful in a simple, humble way. When you choose your clothes, when you comb your hair, when you take a shower, you are expressing an element of complete and fundamental goodness, wakefulness, and decency. There is an alternative to feeling condemned. You actually can make friends with yourself.

Adapted from Mindfulness in Action: Making Friends with Yourself through Meditation and Everyday Awareness, by Chögyam Trungpa, with permission from Shambhala Publications.

[Innocent Warrior]

@onawah


I think the word is "defensive" not "sensitive", when describing people who cannot take criticism...

I get what you’re saying but it can be both, there is a shadow side to being sensitive and some people don’t handle it very well. I can relate due to times when I feel down but some people are chronically on the shadow side of it.

They’re ruled by their emotions and so their moods change easily, according to the environment. They don’t want to feel bad so they don’t receive criticism or even a differing view very well and it becomes a vicious cycle to the point that just differing from them in any way is perceived as an invalidation of the way they are. Growth is slow so they tend to be lacking in emotional intelligence.

These people come off as narcissists when really they’re just not handling being sensitive very well, which is understandable but exhausting.

[onawah]

Yes, and the characteristics can overlap.
According to psychologists, there are covert narcissists, who are not overtly manipulative or as obviously egocentric as overt narcissists, but they can still be very parasitical, consider themselves to be victims rather than predators, and can appear to be victims...
But to an empath who can feel how draining their presence can be, they don't register as sensitive, but rather, as being very needy and often unconscious of what a black hole their energetic presence may feel like to another.
An aware and empowered empath can sometimes provide them with a wake up call by mirroring back to them rather than feeding them.
I think there are examples of individuals all over the spectrum, but considering oneself to be a victim is a characteristic of narcissists, though certainly not limited to them alone.
We are all victims to something at some time in our lives, but it's not necessary to blame another or ourselves to deal with it effectively, though the ego likes to do that.
The state of mind of victimhood karma creates more scenarios where one will feel oneself to be ever more a victim, which creates more inner darkness, and that can lead to the pathology of narcissism.
Somewhere along the line one has to take more responsibility for oneself, or the downward trend will continue, and then it seems one can become fair game for entities that can overpower (at least temporarily) and lead a soul into an even worse spiral downward.
I think that can be short circuited even by simple realizations such as that one is not so much a human having a spiritual experience, but a spirit having a human experience, and gaining some detachment thereby.

[Wind]

I think this has been a fascinating and great thread, also Jordan's work is great (as he is student of Jung). Here's a good read - Carl
Jung and the Shadow. (http://highexistence.com/carl-jung-shadow-guide-unconscious/)

I haven't written anything here earlier, because I think that many good points have already been brought up and I don't have much to add to that. However, as a very sensitive, highly empathic person I can relate to this topic a lot though... I never have liked rude and blunt people, I think they're have some imbalances when it comes to being empathic. You can be honest, frank and kind at the same time without being a douchebag. It's a skill!

I know that I could be very hurtful with my words because I have the capability to use my verbal vocabulary in very versatile ways. I don't do that because it makes me feel uncomfortable if I feel that I've been hurtful towards other people. That doesn't stop me speaking from my truth though and in many ways I've had to toughen up my own skin too. The ego sure is clever and always enjoys the drama. As said previously here, being sensitive is not weakness. It's a special quality in people. Yet people should try to know themselves and also be honest to themselves.

Some sensitive people would seek to avoid pain, because they're... Well, so sensitive to it too of course. Unfortunately, avoidance never fixes the underlying problems. In fact it just makes them more fester more and later they will burst out and be painful as an open sore. You can run away from your problems, but you can't hide from them. Confront the darkness, the darkness the hidden, your pain, because that's how you will overcome them. Only after that you will have learned a great deal about life and your Self. That's what Carl Jung meant when he said;

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f8/fa/0a/f8fa0afe485ef9a36fdace83b1b5f30e.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/69/e6/5a/69e65a4c23aa5ab897442872a762010c.jpg

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/carljungsarchetypes-141011092851-conversion-gate01/95/carl-jungs-archetypes-4-638.jpg?cb=1413020049

[Innocent Warrior]

Nice choice, Wind. Jung is boss. He dove into the deep end of his shadow, bathed in it, took up residence for a while and came out the other side profoundly insightful and sane. Beyond impressive.

“You wanted to accept everything. So accept madness too. Let the light of your madness shine and it will suddenly dawn on you. Madness is not to be despised and not to be feared, but instead you should give it life” ~ Jung

Edit: It’s about facing fears or what you don’t want to accept, he was referring to the divine madness. That place where you find yourself thinking something like, I’m either onto something here or I’ve gone mad. It’s both because the irrationality of spirit would be deemed madness according to conventional views.

[Mike]

Rach you could have just written this post(#88) 5 pages ago and we all could have folded up the tents and gone home. Where were you???:) (Well said!:thumbsup:)


These people come off as narcissists when really they’re just not handling being sensitive very well, which is understandable but exhausting.
Now we're talking. I think this is true, but I also think some of these people really are narcissists - passive aggressive narcissists. imo, when the ego wants attention, it doesn't care if it's because it's the winner or the loser. The highly competitive "winner" is often viewed as the overt narcissist, his ego demanding attention through his successes...while the underdog or "loser" tends to garner sympathy and ego attention through their failures. Both are equally manipulative, and both are narcissists imo. Though it appears one role is favorable to the other, both types of people embrace their roles with equal enthusiasm, because both are getting the same amount of ego attention..just for different reasons.

The perpetual loser quickly carves out a niche as the person we should all feel sorry for. Though they appear quite despondent, they are actually getting an ego thrill from all the attention received. They will resist any and all suggestions for any real, honest, sincere improvement...because their ego has embraced the victim role, and any attempt to take that away would be akin to removing heroin from the hands of a desperate addict.

I've had several girlfriends like this. It's maddening. Their self-proclaimed sensitivity is really just something they hide behind; it's really ego-seeking-attention masquerading as "sensitivity". By calling it "sensitivity", any suggestion that they should try to change/improve can now be labelled an "attack", and the alleged attacker is now the big bad bully.

I think my next thread will explore why the hell i keep selecting these types of people as partners!:)

[Mike]

Wind, oh hell!!....instead of responding to your great post, i edited it! god damnit! So sorry!!!

I'm going to see if it can be recovered. Bear with me.....


post update: Paul, the ever brilliant and wise admin here, has successfully rescued this post from the ether. We are incredibly lucky to have him here.

mooooooo!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_axtoXDwp4Zk/TTBVdKkYDFI/AAAAAAAAC8g/Gs2lINYh-e0/s1600/cow.jpg

[Mike]

Wind the quote I loved so much in your post is the bit about being honest and forward without being a douchebag.

You called it a skill; i think it could just as accurately be called an art.

Earlier in the thread i said we all have a responsibility to become artists - this is exactly what i meant.

Thanks for the excellent post

[DNA]

According to the Michael Teachings (http://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_age_index.html ) which I have always found to be a great descriptive tool (though words always fail at some point and we must never take them too literally, especially when it comes to subject matter that is so cosmic in scope) ...there are souls at all different stages of advancement on our world, from infant on up to old.
Hi Natalie, you know, you and I are far more alike than you may think. I apologize if some where we shared a rather strong opposing view point over very heated current events. I think if we could table our opinions there, we would find an absolute myriad of areas we both agree in. What you speak of here is why I'm of the opinion that there will never be peace on earth. Unless this planet is given a reprieve from incoming infant, young and adult souls to the point where the mature and old souls outnumber them to the point to help nullify their collective influence. We could also speak here on how different countries register as a collective soul age and how this is playing into world politics so much.
This post I made a couple of weeks ago is in response to a statement someone made about inherit soul syphoning organisms and to what affect they would have. My response was a Michael Teachings related one where I basically combine the "mud shadows" of Carlos Castaneda lore with the Chief Features of the Michael Teachings. I thought you might be able to see where I was coming from here. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?21614-Parasitic-Non-Organic-Multidimensional-Beings&p=1220401&viewfull=1#post1220401


( Also some soulless beings, apparently, and non-human souls, but that's another discussion.)
Billy Meier speaks of soulless automatons being created as soldiers by nefarious government types but I've never heard anything of this nature in the Michael Teachings.
Michael Newton's Journey of the soul books speak quite a bit of non-human off world originating souls that are incarnating on this planet now but I've never noted this in the Micheal Teachings either. I'm not bringing this stuff up to debate you, I would just love to hear information I've not been exposed to if it exists. :)

Every level will develop different strengths and weaknesses, and every step along the way is useful in our full development as human beings.
Sometimes we choose to experience a weakness so as to be better able to understand and help a similar weakness in others.
Indeed, it is my absolute opinion that we as souls have all done some horrible things to ourselves and other humans. I don't know why but it seems that we are not allowed to always play the good guy in this earthly play, but that we must also be the antagonist at times. Many folks seem to refuse this idea and feel that their soul knows no taint but I'm of the opinion that true learning demands we not only see things from different perspectives but we must learn by experiencing different perspectives.


Courage and sensitivity are two great strengths to have.
They may not necessarily be developed concurrently, but having them both indicates a healthy balance of human traits.
Sensitivity is as much a strength as courage is.
Too much sensitivity unbalanced by courage can lead to cowardice, too much courage unbalanced by sensitivity can lead to recklessness or even cruelty.
The more we progress, the less judgmental we will be of where others are on their journey, though that doesn't mean we won't have personal likes and dislikes, value certain traits over others.
It's all very much an individual matter.
Grandmotherly compassion is not the same thing as tough love, but both have their place.
A child may not be ready for tough love, but a grandmother's gentle, sweet touch can be just the thing at the right moment.
Other times, we may need a bracing jolt of tough love.
I remember reading the Celestine Prophecy as a young lad and I remember how much it blew me away.
I understood from the book why I couldn't handle being around certain people on account of those folks needing to constantly engage in theatrics designed to steal your energy.
Sensitivity can be likened to how easily your energy field is affected by the environment and the people in it.
Some people have multiple levels of perception developing, organs of awareness that are registering stimuli many are deaf/blind and mute too.
These awakening and or awakened perceptions require energy and often make a person more vulnerable to energy thieving types of folks.
In so far as the Michael Teachings and their vernacular is concerned a mature soul is in a developing state where these things are awakening and as such make this person more vulnerable on account of certain insulations not having manifested as in the case of an old soul.
I would give such a mature soul certain allowances for insulating themselves in a manner where their environment is less chaotic and they are allowed to develop and continue their growth without setbacks.


Don Juan Matus was often seeking situations that would scare Castenada and force him to see things differently.
Indeed, they sought to move his assemblige point through certain theatrics and drugs. I can see how this would work.
As a young man I had an instance where I had gotten off work and my car broke down in the middle of a busy city. It was late at night and the cell phone craze hadn't started so no one was answering their phone. I was prepared to sleep in my car when something crazy happened. An old Native American walked up to me as I sat with my head in my hands next to a pay phone and he sat down at across from me, from the looks of me sitting outside a closed restaurant he assumed I was homeless. He was talking to me and out of no where he asked me "do you know what it is to be altruistic?". He then proceeded to tell me how he was going to let me sleep on his couch that night but we had to do something first. This man was engaging and a constant conversation. Very colorful. We began walking and before long we ended up in front of a convenient store where he started asking people for money. I can't tell you why I did it, but he started egging me on and saying "come on, you are going to need money" and before you know it I started begging with him. This convenient store was not far from a major university and as such most of the people coming in were my age which made this all the more mortifying on my part. I realized that the embarasment and shame I was feeling were due to my self importance and that this was an excellent chance for me to see if I could battle through it. I did, I became a homeless person begging for change from kids my own age at the time. It may sound trite but there was a transformation that took place in me. I'm the type of person I can't even ask my own father for money, so for me to ask total strangers for their money was a shock to my system. After a while the Old Indian said we were done, he took our recently earned money and went into the store we had been pan handling in front of and bought beer. We then went to his house, we drank the beer and he continued telling me stories about his life, he did so until he passed out, so I went to sleep. I woke up the next day, thanked him for being so altruistic and went to my car, which to my surprise started right up. :mullet:


Gurdjieff spoke of students needing shocks at times to help wake them up, though he said that eventually we need to learn how to provide our own shocks rather than depending on Life or a teacher to provide them.At other times, both teachers would provide soothing and reassurance.
I think that is what all good teachers do, and really, they are only imitating Life, which provides us with experiences of all kinds.
Good teachers just help to accelerate Life's process.
There's an interesting discussion on an old thread here on a similar vein: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36835-Grandmother-s-Compassion
[QUOTE=Rachel;1224547]
I've always had a problem with spiritual teachers and such trying to put a d!ck in my ass, well not recently, but as a young man I learned pretty quick to be leery of most spiritual teachers. I hope this isn't the jolt Gurdjieff was referring to in your post earlier. :)
Men in general are flawed beings in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned, I'm no women's lib advocate or social justice warrior but it is my experience that women not only make the best teachers but in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned they should probably be exclusive as the only teachers. You can probably surmise from this what my opinion of the Catholic Church is. :gaah:


[QUOTE=onawah;1224554]Your advice is excellent, given the right person at the right time. At the wrong time it could bury them deeper or just make them angry. You could be looking at the most miserable, apparently weak looking person in front of you, not realising you stand before one of the most powerful and resilient people you’ve ever met, who really needs a big long rest right now, years if necessary. A very sensitive person who’s gone through an unbelievably difficult experience, you just never know, life can be very complex, as you know.
Agreed. :flower:

[onawah]

Actually, those are Rachel's words from this post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102611-Too-Sensitive-Too-Safe&p=1224547&viewfull=1#post1224547
[QUOTE]Your advice is excellent, given the right person at the right time. At the wrong time it could bury them deeper or just make them angry. You could be looking at the most miserable, apparently weak looking person in front of you, not realising you stand before one of the most powerful and resilient people you’ve ever met, who really needs a big long rest right now, years if necessary. A very sensitive person who’s gone through an unbelievably difficult experience, you just never know, life can be very complex, as you know.

[Innocent Warrior]

These people come off as narcissists when really they’re just not handling being sensitive very well, which is understandable but exhausting.
Now we're talking. I think this is true, but I also think some of these people really are narcissists - passive aggressive narcissists. imo, when the ego wants attention, it doesn't care if it's because it's the winner or the loser. The highly competitive "winner" is often viewed as the overt narcissist, his ego demanding attention through his successes...while the underdog or "loser" tends to garner sympathy and ego attention through their failures. Both are equally manipulative, and both are narcissists imo. Though it appears one role is favorable to the other, both types of people embrace their roles with equal enthusiasm, because both are getting the same amount of ego attention..just for different reasons.

The perpetual loser quickly carves out a niche as the person we should all feel sorry for. Though they appear quite despondent, they are actually getting an ego thrill from all the attention received. They will resist any and all suggestions for any real, honest, sincere improvement...because their ego has embraced the victim role, and any attempt to take that away would be akin to removing heroin from the hands of a desperate addict.

I've had several girlfriends like this. It's maddening. Their self-proclaimed sensitivity is really just something they hide behind; it's really ego-seeking-attention masquerading as "sensitivity". By calling it "sensitivity", any suggestion that they should try to change/improve can now be labelled an "attack", and the alleged attacker is now the big bad bully.

I think my next thread will explore why the hell i keep selecting these types of people as partners!:)

Evidently, you’re correct, they’re called covert narcissists; 23 Signs You're Secretly a Narcissist Masquerading as a Sensitive Introvert (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/23-signs-youe28099re-secretly-a-narcissist-masquerading-as-a-sensitive-introvert/)


Where were you???

Where I’m headed back to now. I’ve had my Avalonian fix of fabulous, genius, sweet people. <3

[onawah]

[QUOTE=onawah;1224554] According to the Michael Teachings (http://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_age_index.html ) which I have always found to be a great descriptive tool (though words always fail at some point and we must never take them too literally, especially when it comes to subject matter that is so cosmic in scope) ...there are souls at all different stages of advancement on our world, from infant on up to old.
Hi Natalie, you know, you and I are far more alike than you may think. I apologize if some where we shared a rather strong opposing view point over very heated current events. I think if we could table our opinions there, we would find an absolute myriad of areas we both agree in.

No doubt!! :handshake: Don Juan and the Michael Teachings give us a lot of common ground, in my view. Gurdjieff not as much (I could never get past his alcoholism) but he came from a good tradition of teachers and I found many of the teachings to be very helpful.

What you speak of here is why I'm of the opinion that there will never be peace on earth. Unless this planet is given a reprieve from incoming infant, young and adult souls to the point where the mature and old souls outnumber them to the point to help nullify their collective influence. We could also speak here on how different countries register as a collective soul age and how this is playing into world politics so much.

I don't know if it's true though I hope so, but some psychics have said that planets also go through stages and that Gaia is graduating now to her next stage of maturity, which will mean that fewer infant, baby and young souls will be incarnating here. That would indicate an era of peace upcoming.

This post I made a couple of weeks ago is in response to a statement someone made about inherit soul syphoning organisms and to what affect they would have. My response was a Michael Teachings related one where I basically combine the "mud shadows" of Carlos Castaneda lore with the Chief Features of the Michael Teachings. I thought you might be able to see where I was coming from here. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?21614-Parasitic-Non-Organic-Multidimensional-Beings&p=1220401&viewfull=1#post1220401

Excellent post!


( Also some soulless beings, apparently, and non-human souls, but that's another discussion.)
Billy Meier speaks of soulless automatons being created as soldiers by nefarious government types but I've never heard anything of this nature in the Michael Teachings.

Nor have I, but they are many channelers of the Michael Teachings, and their readings are not all recorded for public perusal, by any means.

Michael Newton's Journey of the soul books speak quite a bit of non-human off world originating souls that are incarnating on this planet now but I've never noted this in the Micheal Teachings either. I'm not bringing this stuff up to debate you, I would just love to hear information I've not been exposed to if it exists. :)

I've found some of Simon Parkes information to be helpful on that subject, and on the Djinn (parasitic non-human multidimensional beings) but discussing of that is problematical on Avalon.


Every level will develop different strengths and weaknesses, and every step along the way is useful in our full development as human beings.
Sometimes we choose to experience a weakness so as to be better able to understand and help a similar weakness in others.
Indeed, it is my absolute opinion that we as souls have all done some horrible things to ourselves and other humans. I don't know why but it seems that we are not allowed to always play the good guy in this earthly play, but that we must also be the antagonist at times. Many folks seem to refuse this idea and feel that their soul knows no taint but I'm of the opinion that true learning demands we not only see things from different perspectives but we must learn by experiencing different perspectives.

I think that is relative to the maturity of the soul in question. Even for a very developed soul, in order to accomplish something that is necessary for personal evolution, or for the benefit of mankind in general, tasks may be taken on which will necessitate compromise in order to bring about the greater good, though it may entail taking on personal, negative karma that will have to be balanced out later on. It is a kind of self-sacrifice in the larger perspective, though egoistic actions may also come into play, or at least appear to. For example, for altruistic purposes, a soul may take on a lifetime in a role of leadership such as that of a general or queen, in order to prevent a less altruistic soul from assuming that role, since that soul would do more harm to the greater good in the position of power. As in the Mahabarata, where the noble Arjuna laments to Krishna that his fellow men are slaying each other senselessly and he does not want to take part, but Krishna shows him that his participation is required for the best possible outcome.


Courage and sensitivity are two great strengths to have.
They may not necessarily be developed concurrently, but having them both indicates a healthy balance of human traits.
Sensitivity is as much a strength as courage is.
Too much sensitivity unbalanced by courage can lead to cowardice, too much courage unbalanced by sensitivity can lead to recklessness or even cruelty.
The more we progress, the less judgmental we will be of where others are on their journey, though that doesn't mean we won't have personal likes and dislikes, value certain traits over others.
It's all very much an individual matter.
Grandmotherly compassion is not the same thing as tough love, but both have their place.
A child may not be ready for tough love, but a grandmother's gentle, sweet touch can be just the thing at the right moment.
Other times, we may need a bracing jolt of tough love.
I remember reading the Celestine Prophecy as a young lad and I remember how much it blew me away.
I understood from the book why I couldn't handle being around certain people on account of those folks needing to constantly engage in theatrics designed to steal your energy.
Sensitivity can be likened to how easily your energy field is affected by the environment and the people in it.
Some people have multiple levels of perception developing, organs of awareness that are registering stimuli many are deaf/blind and mute too.
These awakening and or awakened perceptions require energy and often make a person more vulnerable to energy thieving types of folks.
In so far as the Michael Teachings and their vernacular is concerned a mature soul is in a developing state where these things are awakening and as such make this person more vulnerable on account of certain insulations not having manifested as in the case of an old soul.
I would give such a mature soul certain allowances for insulating themselves in a manner where their environment is less chaotic and they are allowed to develop and continue their growth without setbacks.

Not to contradict, but in the Michael Teachings, mature souls are often involved in lots of drama, while old souls are the ones more likely to seek "shelter from the storm", having become tempted or deluded no longer by the passions and the endless play of human desire which can never be satisfied (Maya). As in Shakespeare's MacBeth: " Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage And then is heard no more: it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."


Don Juan Matus was often seeking situations that would scare Castenada and force him to see things differently.
Indeed, they sought to move his assemblige point through certain theatrics and drugs. I can see how this would work.
As a young man I had an instance where I had gotten off work and my car broke down in the middle of a busy city. It was late at night and the cell phone craze hadn't started so no one was answering their phone. I was prepared to sleep in my car when something crazy happened. An old Native American walked up to me as I sat with my head in my hands next to a pay phone and he sat down at across from me, from the looks of me sitting outside a closed restaurant he assumed I was homeless. He was talking to me and out of no where he asked me "do you know what it is to be altruistic?". He then proceeded to tell me how he was going to let me sleep on his couch that night but we had to do something first. This man was engaging and a constant conversation. Very colorful. We began walking and before long we ended up in front of a convenient store where he started asking people for money. I can't tell you why I did it, but he started egging me on and saying "come on, you are going to need money" and before you know it I started begging with him. This convenient store was not far from a major university and as such most of the people coming in were my age which made this all the more mortifying on my part. I realized that the embarasment and shame I was feeling were due to my self importance and that this was an excellent chance for me to see if I could battle through it. I did, I became a homeless person begging for change from kids my own age at the time. It may sound trite but there was a transformation that took place in me. I'm the type of person I can't even ask my own father for money, so for me to ask total strangers for their money was a shock to my system. After a while the Old Indian said we were done, he took our recently earned money and went into the store we had been pan handling in front of and bought beer. We then went to his house, we drank the beer and he continued telling me stories about his life, he did so until he passed out, so I went to sleep. I woke up the next day, thanked him for being so altruistic and went to my car, which to my surprise started right up. :mullet:

A very timely and instructive experience from a kind of Bodhisattva, it would seem... they come in all shapes and disguises!


Gurdjieff spoke of students needing shocks at times to help wake them up, though he said that eventually we need to learn how to provide our own shocks rather than depending on Life or a teacher to provide them.At other times, both teachers would provide soothing and reassurance.
I think that is what all good teachers do, and really, they are only imitating Life, which provides us with experiences of all kinds.
Good teachers just help to accelerate Life's process.
There's an interesting discussion on an old thread here on a similar vein: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36835-Grandmother-s-Compassion

I've always had a problem with spiritual teachers and such trying to put a d!ck in my ass, well not recently, but as a young man I learned pretty quick to be leery of most spiritual teachers. I hope this isn't the jolt Gurdjieff was referring to in your post earlier. :)
Men in general are flawed beings in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned, I'm no women's lib advocate or social justice warrior but it is my experience that women not only make the best teachers but in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned they should probably be exclusive as the only teachers. You can probably surmise from this what my opinion of the Catholic Church is. :gaah:

Even the highest teachers are still human, whether male or female, but the masculine and female energies globally have become badly in need of balancing, and that certainly goes for spiritual teachers as well. In many cases, especially so, as in the case of the Vatican, and the fundamentalists of all religions generally.

[rgray222]

We can take action to get over our fears, we can go to the top of a skyscraper to deal with heights, collect a jar of spiders, fly in an airplane. But these fears and most fear ultimately center around death. This is the ultimate fear that we can't take action to resolve........ outside of actually dying.

We seem so sensitive to so much nowadays that our modern complaints are more trivial than ever in human history. So many of our day to day fears and sensitivities dissipate when our lives are on the line.

A question I have struggled with for years is...............is war necessary. Of course, the quick answer is absolutely not. But in the greater scheme of things maybe it is necessary from a greater universal level. I have never thought about war from this perspective.

Does the world beg for a world war to drop us back into reality, how much tension is needed. My point is if we are faced with a world war on a grand scale all our fears, sensitivities, echo chambers and sense of importance go right out the window.

I am not looking for any tension from this post...........it is just a thought.