When You Feel Like Giving Up

[Mike]

XICqcAac9jg
I've had several topics I've wanted to discuss, all floating thru my mind in a way that wasn't quite coherent enough to post in any reasonable way. And every time I tried to connect them in a way that would make for a good thread, I'd just get a headache.

Enter Jordan Peterson: lecturer, clinical psychologist and college professor. I spose I am drinking the Peterson cool aid lately, but the guy has a way of connecting all these seemingly separate things in a way that appeals to this part of me that demands tidiness and a pretty bow on top of everything.

The title of the video is "when you feel like giving up", which is pretty self explanatory. It's inspirational, but not in a flaky, everything-is-gonna-be-ok way. There's quite a bit to unpack in this video (which is really a compilation of his lectures and interviews), and if you folks show some interest in doing that, I think we can have a great discussion. If not, simply watch and enjoy.

[Valerie Villars]

"And every time I tried to connect them in a way that would make for a good thread, I'd just get a headache."


Oh my God, Mike. You are just too funny. I feel the same way, way too often. I'll have a look.

[RunningDeer]

Jordan Peterson YouTube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/JordanPetersonVideos/videos) :wave:


WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE GIVING UP! - JORDAN PETERSON [INSPIRING]
XICqcAac9jg

[Mike]

Paula to the rescue. Thanks:star:

(I'm operating from my phone - I can copy and paste links, but I'm not quite sure how to post the video like that.)

[RunningDeer]

Two different ways to add a YouTube vid:

1) Highlight Youtube address and then click on Youtube icon in menu.


https://i.imgur.com/VLHvKEP.jpg



http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-white.jpg

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-grey.jpg

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-white.jpg


2) Type a tag in front and on the backend of the address. No space between tags and address.


https://i.imgur.com/nhfFT6d.jpg

♡

PS Feel free to delete post.


Paula to the rescue. Thanks:star:

(I'm operating from my phone - I can copy and paste links, but I'm not quite sure how to post the video like that.)

[Mike]

Alright, let's add a little order to this thread...(or at least try) Here we go:

Initially I wanted to say something about dominance hierarchies and our relative position in them as they relate to over sensitivity and a propensity to always be in crisis...and how this ties in with issues of engagism and escapism. I'll start there and see where it takes me..

(oh boy, I can already hear the collective groan haha. Mike is going to lecture about over sensitivity and personal responsibility again...run! What happened?...you used to be funny!)

There will be a little bit of that for context, but I promise to not harp on it.

It's interesting - when I first registered here in 2011 and began making a few friends, I quickly realized one thing: it seems everyone here is always in some sort of crisis. (including me!)

Was it some remarkable coincidence??? Or was it something deeper? The conspiracy theorist in us is tempted to write it off as psychic tampering, or electronic harassment, or this or that. Those things are real, but they also act as intellectual road blocks for those who don't want to look a little deeper, and begin to take personal responsibility for the circumstances of their lives.

The truth can be a terrible thing, but burying it and not facing it will only amplify it's power and cause you 10 times the grief. For the individual in crisis, the main problem with facing the truth is, you first have to admit how far you've fallen. This can be enormously difficult, and traumatic. It's humbling. Also, to acknowledge this is also to become acutely aware of all the time and energy and planning that may be required to solve this crisis. And for the emotionally strained individual, this seems way too much to handle...

...so they indulge escapism if they succumb to this overwhelming wave of responsibility they had been ignoring for so long. Escapism takes on many forms, like drinking and drugs...but also conspiracy. The paranormal. Spiritualism. The so called alternative community if rife with escape artists. Delusionals. They're everywhere. You, the reader, may even be one:wink:. I've been one, and often times still am one! (Why sit here and and plan mundane ways to improve my life when I can drink a beer and watch Mothman videos?)

The archetypal heroic journey involves courageously facing the unknown and returning to articulate it. This is what the individual that engages reality/crisis does. But he's smart; he breaks it all up into little pieces. He humbles himself and begins with seemingly silly micro habits, like cleaning his room. He is aware he is on a high wire, and has the discipline to not look down. He quite literally takes it one step at a time.. These small steps/victories begin to pile up, and over time result in bigger and greater victories. In this way, his personal power amplifies.

Notice, he is doing practical things, things that have utility. He is slowly but surely stopping the behaviors and habits that are harmful and replacing them with goal oriented, seemingly mundane things. It can be incredibly tedious, but he embraces the discipline when he sees it working. He is not consulting psychics, hypnotists, or past life regressionists; nor does he spend his precious time reading dusty old books from the "occult" section of the local used book store(that last one is a terrible habit of mine;)). Sure,there is a time and a place for those things, but this isn't it - crisis demands a more pragmatic approach.

It's crucial to articulate your goals to yourself, and set up a strategy for success. You must have a specific definition for success, because if you don't you'll never know if you've attained it. Some people prefer this - they stay deliberately foggy and vague so as to avoid the responsibility of goal setting. They fear failure, but here's the thing - if you don't set specific goals, you're failing all the time.

...and this often involves a schedule btw. I know, more tedium...but this type of tedium multiplied can result in greatness.

When you are at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, you will have a very sensitive reaction to negative emotions - you will avoid them like the plague. This makes sense when you think about it. Being at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy doesn't just mean you're broke or have very little money...it often implies you may live in an unsafe area; maybe you can't afford a vehicle; maybe you're divorced, or have been recently fired. This makes you impulsive, susceptible to bad habits like drugs, drinking, or smoking. Or worse! Poor choices follow, and this creates a loop whereby you remain at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy.

Like I said earlier, when I started here (and up till now) I couldn't help but notice that most of us are sorta poor and usually in some kind of crisis. And when your whole world could bottom out at any moment, you are going to have an extremely strong reaction to negative emotions. In other words, you are going to be too sensitive. (I spoke quite a bit about this in a thread i started recently...about how overly sensitive people cannot communicate honestly due to avoiding any topic that may make them uneasy, etc, and how this results in superficially nice people and soft, unproductive dialogue)

Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote a book about the Stalinist forced labor camps called "The Gulag Archipelago". He was in those forced labor camps for many years, and they were beyond brutal. He had a lot of time to think in there, and his epiphany occurred when he began looking for ways in which he himself was responsible for his current conditions. This was all during world war 2, and he had Stalin and Hitler to blame if he so chose, and he would have been perfectly entitled to that. But looking over the details of his life with a fine toothed comb, he came to the conclusion that he was personably responsible for being there...that there were ways he could have avoided his fate had he taken certain actions.

So, I was hoping to discuss..

1) why are we in the alt community so poor? lol (making $ has always been a sort of taboo thing in the alt community. we find all sorts of reasons to avoid making the effort, hiding behind things like spiritualism and sanctimony and "the game being rigged" etc. in other words, nihilism. but i maintain we all have a personal responsibility to make money, to carry our weight so to speak, for the very simple reason that if you don't, someone else has to do it for you....which has endless ramfications and could be a thread of its own.
2) why are we always in crisis?
3) how much of that is our responsibility? and how should we proceed in relation to that?
4) are we attempting to engage reality by being here, or are we attempting to escape it?



p.s. If anyone actually reads this entire post I will be f#cking shocked:bigsmile: And fair enough! - this is precisely the type of post i tend to avoid, honestly )

[ErtheVessel]

Thanks for this thread, Mike. I'm glad you're asking these thought-provoking questions.

For me, I believe that the world outside of me will not change until I change myself, on some core internal level, and that I am responsible for the life I live in the deepest possible way. The world I live in inevitably reflects back to me the secrets of my own soul and the places I need to grow, if I will only look.

In my experience what you're talking about includes rigorous yet compassionate self-reflection and self-honesty and an awareness of the principles of projection and how easy it is to project onto others outside of us the things inside our own selves that we cannot face. And more stuff that I can't quite find the words for right now.

And yet, this is not t say that people are not being victimized and brutalized unfairly. Complicated stuff.

I will sleep on this and see if I am able to make more sense tomorrow. :sleep:

[Mike]

Thanks for this thread, Mike. I'm glad you're asking these thought-provoking questions.

For me, I believe that the world outside of me will not change until I change myself, on some core internal level, and that I am responsible for the life I live in the deepest possible way. The world I live in inevitably reflects back to me the secrets of my own soul and the places I need to grow, if I will only look.

In my experience what you're talking about includes rigorous yet compassionate self-reflection and self-honesty and an awareness of the principles of projection and how easy it is to project onto others outside of us the things inside our own selves that we cannot face. And more stuff that I can't quite find the words for right now.

And yet, this is not t say that people are not being victimized and brutalized unfairly. Complicated stuff.

I will sleep on this and see if I am able to make more sense tomorrow. :sleep:


Ah, well said! Thanks for this ErtheVessel.

There has been a feel goody, self esteem trend for quite some time, that "you're just fine the way you are"...when many people are pretty far from fine!

In order to improve, i think we need to acknowledge the disaster we've become. And we acknowledge that yes, it is our fault, and in doing so we empower ourselves to change.

Realizing that we are at fault is the most liberating msg, in my view, because that means we can do something about it. If it's someone or something doing it to us, we are pretty powerless.

I am a realist...and like you said, some people are victimized and brutalized unfairly. It needs to be acknowledged. But if Solzhenitsyn can find personal blame for being throw in the gulags, then surely we can assume some responsibility for most of the events in our lives, I should think.

I especially like what you said about changing yourself first, before attempting to change the outside world. it starts with the individual, in my view. That's why Peterson's suggestion to "clean up your room" has become such a popular internet meme - if you can't even clean up your room, what business do you have criticizing the outside world?:)

[Oddball]

deleted for posterity.

[Foxie Loxie]

Hey, Mike! Since I have been off line for two weeks it kind of gives me a fresh perspective on Avalon. Life was BORING without it! :bigsmile:

In my own case, I can state that I was "led" to Avalon at a specific time in my life so that I might find the answers I was seeking after an entire lifetime spent within a tiny little religious box that ruined my life. :Angel:

Don't quite understand what you mean about being "in crisis". We are each in our own particular "situation" at the time of our awakening. In my case, I had totally accepted the brainwashing of my childhood thinking if I followed that path everything would be fine! WRONG! :blushing:

One great lesson I learned is that it is not possible to change other people! Funny thing is....once one begins the changes within one's own self, readjusting one's personal values,
these "others" seem to pull away from us & as the levels on which we used to operate simply are not there! That's o.k

For this reason we DO need Avalon; a place where we CAN relate to others who are no longer bound by conventional thinking & willing to explore other avenues of thought. What's great about Avalon is that we can do so in a civil, polite manner. :bowing:

We have each come through our own peculiar set of circumstances which means that each of us can contribute in a unique manner to "the whole" for the benefit of all. I'd say that this is a pretty Special Place & we should be very thankful that Bill chose to create it! :hug:

As for "being poor".....I find nothing shameful in that, especially after having my eyes opened. The "riches" we have here on Avalon far surpass any material wealth, in my opinion.
Good thread you have started, I'll be interested to read others' replies!

Learning that I AM an Eternal, Sovereign Being is what "set me free", allowing the chains of slavery to drop off!! :ballchain:

YeeeHaaa!:Party::Party: Much Love to All!! :heart:

[RunningDeer]

There’s a lot to unpack in your post, Mike… Here’s bits and pieces of what I’ve done and continue to do.

Life is as unpredictable as I am. We’ve become great buddies. We time-share this crazy earth space.
................................http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/air-toss.gif

Poverty, the kind that is a state of mind… is quicksand. Where, what and how am I allowing another or a situation to suck me down?

A crisis to some is a challenge for others to engage in problem solving, action and resolution. Each opportunity is a classroom of potentiality to follow through. Over time one discovers how to listen to the higher senses and work in tandem with them.

Life is self responsibility; engage life as an empowered individual. Life is down to earth and practical. Life is movement and action and out growth and in-growth and technique and expansion in evolution of self with best self.

Get the job done and be open to the subtle knowings. Stay open to and reach beyond potentiality to the innate gifts, richness and beauty within.

♡

[Mike]

Hi Foxie, I'm glad you're back!:clapping:

I don't really feel any shame for being poor either; I just find it curious that a great majority of us are struggling that way. Not too long ago I'd started a thread on oversensitivity, and here I was trying to make the connection between holding low positions on the dominance hierarchy and how that makes one susceptible to crisis, oversensitivity, and impractical/unhealthy habits and escapism.

What do I mean by crisis? Gosh, when I first started here, quite a few of the people I met didn't work; they were being supported by the state for one reason or another (btw, I'm not ridiculing them! Sh!t happens. I get it!) And it seemed something was always happening with their bi weekly checks - they were late, short a few bucks, or being held up on some weird technicality. Many were divorced, single Mom's, living in unsafe areas. Their world was always right at the verge of bottoming out, which made them overly sensitive(understandably so) and impulsive and prone to bad habits. Crisis.

One friend of mine who is long gone now once said to me while all this was going on "i just can't navigate this world man". That stayed with me somehow. He was having a mini breakdown simply because he had to appear in court. Of course it was much more than that - he was extremely sensitive to any sort of controversy because he was on the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. Everything seemed like a crisis to him, even simply appearing in court. It was the result of a lifetime ofnot taking personal responsibility for himself.

These are just a few examples. But I could give you endless examples of crisis. Of course, not everyone here is in crisis. But there's certainly a trend.

And I think, when one winds up at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, instead of doing the rigorous self examination and tedious, practical self improvement necessary, there is a tendency to escape into things like conspiracy research, or woo woo.

I mean, that's precisely what I've done, and still continue to do in weaker moments.

[Mike]

There’s a lot to unpack in your post, Mike… Here’s bits and pieces of what I’ve done and continue to do.

Life is as unpredictable as I am. We’ve become great buddies. We time-share this crazy earth space.
................................http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/air-toss.gif

Poverty, the kind that is a state of mind… is quicksand. Where, what and how am I allowing another or a situation to suck me down?

A crisis to some is a challenge for others to engage in problem solving, action and resolution. Each opportunity is a classroom of potentiality to follow through. Over time one discovers how to listen to the higher senses and work in tandem with them.

Life is self responsibility; engage life as an empowered individual. Life is down to earth and practical. Life is movement and action and out growth and in-growth and technique and expansion in evolution of self with best self.

Get the job done and be open to the subtle knowings. Stay open to and reach beyond potentiality to the innate gifts, richness and beauty within.

♡



You know something - I was feeling very tense while writing the stuff in this thread, sort of militaristic and quite serious....and the energy of your post just completely disarmed me:) It's relaxed me a little, so thanks for that (I needed it)

[Flash]

Hi Foxie, I'm glad you're back!:clapping:

I don't really feel any shame for being poor either; I just find it curious that a great majority of us are struggling that way. Not too long ago I'd started a thread on oversensitivity, and here I was trying to make the connection between holding low positions on the dominance hierarchy and how that makes one susceptible to crisis, oversensitivity, and impractical/unhealthy habits and escapism.

What do I mean by crisis? Gosh, when I first started here, quite a few of the people I met didn't work; they were being supported by the state for one reason or another (btw, I'm not ridiculing them! Sh!t happens. I get it!) And it seemed something was always happening with their bi weekly checks - they were late, short a few bucks, or being held up on some weird technicality. Many were divorced, single Mom's, living in unsafe areas. Their world was always right at the verge of bottoming out, which made them overly sensitive(understandably so) and impulsive and prone to bad habits. Crisis.

One friend of mine who is long gone now once said to me while all this was going on "i just can't navigate this world man". That stayed with me somehow. He was having a mini breakdown simply because he had to appear in court. Of course it was much more than that - he was extremely sensitive to any sort of controversy because he was on the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. Everything seemed like a crisis to him, even simply appearing in court. It was the result of a lifetime ofnot taking personal responsibility for himself.

These are just a few examples. But I could give you endless examples of crisis. Of course, not everyone here is in crisis. But there's certainly a trend.

And I think, when one winds up at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, instead of doing the rigorous self examination and tedious, practical self improvement necessary, there is a tendency to escape into things like conspiracy research, or woo woo.

I mean, that's precisely what I've done, and still continue to do in weaker moments.

entirely agree with you Mike, I am guilty of the same.

However, I must say that with time, I filtered the real woo from the imagined woo woo, and did learn quite a lot. I also had to learn to filter emotional upheavals from different us, givne some times or life happenings.

But, even if I have been in very dire life circumstances (I still can't believe at times what i went through, and mostly cannot tell because it is crazy - and not necessarily conspiracies), I do have a strong mind and although sensitive, I do manage my emotions most of the time, and therefore I could manage the filtering, I think. Many people just cannot.

One key may be taking full responsibilities for oneself and for those we are the care takers, plus strong mind and will, paired with emotional control.

However, I post a lot when alone, lonely, or when I do not have a job, or a boyfriend (I do not know why both are equivalent in time spent) lollllllll.

[Mike]

Hi Flash:), excellent stuff.

Another key might be, as Peterson says, treating yourself like you matter.

Of course that requires personal responsibility. I've got a friend who's favorite excuse to anything is "who cares, I'll likely be dead in 5 years anyway." By treating himself as if he doesn't matter, he has escaped any and all responsibility for his actions.

I think we have a personal responsibility to treat ourselves like we matter, because it reverberates into the world. Plus, if you treat yourself like you don't matter, you'll likely treat others even worse. If one continually pathalogizes oneself, one pathalogizes the world....like a ripple effect.

[Flash]

1) why are we in the alt community so poor? lol (making $ has always been a sort of taboo thing in the alt community. we find all sorts of reasons to avoid making the effort, hiding behind things like spiritualism and sanctimony and "the game being rigged" etc. in other words, nihilism. but i maintain we all have a personal responsibility to make money, to carry our weight so to speak, for the very simple reason that if you don't, someone else has to do it for you....which has endless ramfications and could be a thread of its own.

I lived in one of the most taxed place in the world. So taxed that tax evasion has become a must, if you can.

Why? because we have a social blanket covering all the needs of the needies, that is frankly quite good. However, this blanket is very badly managed by incompetent bureaucrats, who sometimes do not deserve their salary and who will not want to change even under an atomic bomb.

So, part of the society became passive - I understand a mother who had a sick child and need time off to take care of him to rely on society, although it was the case with me and did not rely on society.

I understand someone sick, unable to work, relying on some help to go through and sincerely, I DO NOT understand that health care is not free all over the planet, this is as basic as water and does put families on the street if they cannot afford it.

However, I have seen so many passive people, from generation to generation, eating from my taxes, in fact from me in a quite direct way, me, a single mom who had to raise an handicap child while working 70 hours a week, which made me physically sick (not able to take care of my body for lack of time), and me who paid for the alternative treatments of that child all along, it makes me sick to have paid heavy taxes for the lazy bunch.

In there you have those who simply will not work, those who emigrated in Canada to profit from the system, those who work under the table while pocketing the welfare gorvernment money, all those, I supported.

Having had only half the money I gave away in the highest taxes in the world would have made my retirement at least honorable and with living conditions called fine (not wealthy, just fine).

Instead, I am still thinking of ways of making money - while being the subject of jalousy from those who exploited the welfare system. They have no way of understanding how much one can work or how much one can take care of oneself by oneself.

my rant is over, now I will try to enjoy my life nevertheless.

And yes, I matter, certainly as much as all those welfare bums (not the real needy ones, but the exploiters and self reliance deniers)

My daughter mattered more than I did for years, the parent's dutie and love... now my turn arrived. I wish I had a bit more money though.

[shaberon]

One living disaster here. It's everyone else's fault, especially those pesky teachers who told me that I would have this wonderful bright golden future, and...no, of course it's not their fault. They provided a lousy environment in which themselves were ignorant pawns. Sentient beings are weak, ignorant, helpless. They suffer because of me. There is no escape.

When young, it is a bit easier to access "internal feel good energies" and have a feeling of total accomplishment, but this really has no foundation. The seeds and causes of every unhappy and violent thing are still there. Can't wish it away.

1) why are we in the alt community so poor?

At one point in time, my ancestors walked away from hereditary wealth to participate in the American colonies, revolt against the British, campaign on the anti-Federalist platform, and then attempt to live as simple farmers who did not like banks. Consequentially, my last great farming ancestor died with his furniture stuffed with cash, and I don't know where it went. I have been unable to replace it. The "working world" attempted to kill me. I've watched it generationally go down the tubes from landowners to people with nothing. Medical bills taking everything. Inability of employed people to get by. Wealth was removed in precisely the way the Revolutionaries were fighting against.

2) why are we always in crisis?

Hardly anyone ever listened to me. When I have looked to see what their "superior" point of view was, it never consisted of anything other than laziness and personal wants. That appears to be the "Juggernaut" placed in the way of understanding. If this is not done, there is no crisis. As with #1, this has been thrust into society intentionally. At the same time, we can use this to become stronger; a "crisis" for one person might not even get my attention any more.

3) how much of that is our responsibility? and how should we proceed in relation to that?

90%. There must be something inside me that draws and binds to various kinds of crisis-maker. Sometimes, the whole world is just "one's own" subconscious talking. I often reflect on Shantideva's thesis that, "Because of You, I am going to become a Buddha and purify infinite realms. Because of Me, You will fall through the hells and suffer endless agonies". This is a complex, delicate relationship to adjust. It has to do with erasing the thoughts which make the concept of "other", which are largely the same as those that compose "me".

My plan is more or less to freely give as much useful information as possible to encourage others to feel good from having a good heart. Outnumber the doomed slaves with free hearts and watch their leadership die.

4) are we attempting to engage reality by being here, or are we attempting to escape it?

Reality is not of this world, so, at best, we can rummage through the limitations of language to make the attempt to engage. Solutions to the illusion are not to be found within the illusion itself, which is why science cannot answer it. Without an axiom stating that consciousness exists independently, that it is not an accident of chemicals and neurotransmitters, there is nothing to engage.

This kind of thread is great, because, the deeper you look, the worse it gets. Our yards need extreme cleaning. When often it seems like there's nothing to do, and/or that you might lend help to the wrong object, those are spots that can be filled with a more powerful mentality. The illusion is telling you there's nothing, and it is up to you to inform it otherwise. In this sense, a single Mongolian wandering around out there with a clear mind, has brought me much more benefit than 300 million Americans swarming around in idle, useless chatter.

[Mike]

Shaberon thanks for that very thoughtful post.

I'm glad you brought up the concept of reality being an illusion. We've heard this so many times, and I worry that the message has gotten distorted in the process. This might be an example of the escapism I'd written about earlier.

When people hear that reality is an illusion, that it's not real...there is an implication that nothing really matters, which runs contrary to this idea of treating yourself as if you do matter, and the personal responsibility that accompanies that.

I worry that 3d-reality-as-illusion is sort of like the new age's answer to the biblical 'rapture'. If the world isn't real (or in the case of the bible, is going to end at any moment) and nothing really matters, why do anything? Why even lift a finger? Apathy sets in. Nihilism. It tends to suck the motivation out of the room:)

I think reality is somewhat illusory, in the sense that the universe is, in its true nature, a vibrating, oscillating, wave pattern of energies that are all interconnected. In this sense, it explains the concept of oneness as well. It is our eyes that makes objects out of the various oscillations, which suggests separation. This is my understanding.

However, I don't think that makes our experience here any less real....and i dont think that makes us any less individual. We are interpreting a deeper reality through our 5 senses, sure...but it still is very much valid. Our feelings are real...our joys, our pains. Nothing illusory about them. In my view we have to ground ourselves in this reality, recognize its authenticity, and take personal responsibility for our actions in it. I think that's step 1. I think folks get lost in the mystical and so forth before acknowledging this....i think they do it as an excuse to avoid recognizing this. Escapism, using spirituality as an excuse.

Yes, the game is rigged. But the notion of personal responsibility remains the same. It's facing the unknown, facing the impossible, and still making choices and giving meaning to our acts in spite of it all. This is the concept of the "warrior" in the Castaneda material.

[Foxie Loxie]

"Without an axiom stating that consciousness exists independently..."

I think you have hit on the crux of the matter, shaberon! :highfive: If we were told from birth that consciousness is PRIMARY, that we are already Eternal Beings, incarnated for a specific purpose.....WOW! What a difference that would make! We are to "serve" no one; we "contribute"!

That what we are living through here on earth is not True Reality would surely be attested to by those who have experienced NDE's; my conclusion from what I have read. :confused:

[Valerie Villars]

Mike, the idea of giving a long, well thought out reply just gives me a headache. :happythumbsup:

But, the short answer to why we are more poor is that we are less mercenary than the rest of the population.

Take heart. Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth.

[Mike]

Mike, the idea of giving a long, well thought out reply just gives me a headache. :happythumbsup:

But, the short answer to why we are more poor is that we are less mercenary than the rest of the population.

Take heart. Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth.


I can hardly blame you!:)

I'm exhausted already...and the thread hasn't even reached page 2. Honestly there's a small part of me that hopes people will just stop posting here:bigsmile: Then i'll stop too.. ..

I may change the title of the thread to "When A Non Intellectual Tries To Play The Intellectual' lol...it results in very disjointed, long, meandering posts that nobody really wants to read!

You made me laugh. Thx Val.

[ErtheVessel]

I think part of what happens is that self-reflection and self-responsibility are incredibly hard work. It can be very daunting to face one's inner broken places and slowly clear a path away from the well of ancient sorrows.

Jordan Peterson is a contributor to a website called Self-Authoring where there seems to be guidance provided (for a price) in the form of a program where people can rewrite the script of their life, which indicates to me he is also aware of the hard inner psychological work that most of us would benefit from doing. But there are as many paths to self-reflection and inner work as there are people. (And I am not promoting JP's site - I really know nothing about it other than the fact that it exists.)

The woo woo and conspiracy escapes that you speak of, Mike, can be so interesting, compelling and energizing exactly because they distract us from the exploration and the wrangling of one's own inner demons. And it is especially compelling because there is so very much real truth in the conspiracy frame of reality.

But I am a firm believer that the world around me changes only when I genuinely change from deep inside.

The alleged inscription over the Temple of Delphi, "Know Thyself" becomes more and more profound for me the older I get.

I hope all of this doesn't sound pompous, as I have not arrived at any exceptional heights, but I know for sure that I am slightly less nuts than I used to be, and that is quite a relief, for me, as well as for probably everyone I know. :bigsmile:

[Bill Ryan]

Do please see my post #2, here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102921-When-it--s-Not-your-Body-but-your-Soul-that--s-Tired.&p=1226883#post1226883) on this new thread:


When it’s Not your Body, but your Soul that’s Tired. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102921-When-it--s-Not-your-Body-but-your-Soul-that--s-Tired.)

[Valerie Villars]

Mike, the idea of giving a long, well thought out reply just gives me a headache. :happythumbsup:

But, the short answer to why we are more poor is that we are less mercenary than the rest of the population.

Take heart. Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth.


I can hardly blame you!:)

I'm exhausted already...and the thread hasn't even reached page 2. Honestly there's a small part of me that hopes people will just stop posting here:bigsmile: Then i'll stop too.. ..

I may change the title of the thread to "When A Non Intellectual Tries To Play The Intellectual' lol...it results in very disjointed, long, meandering posts that nobody really wants to read!

You made me laugh. Thx Val.

Mike, I feel like a fish out of water here sometimes, because there are so many intelligent people who post incredible stuff. It's not that you aren't intelligent or I'm not. It's just a different kind of intelligence.

I remember thinking one day, shortly before I got laid off, "Why I'm smarter than they are" referring to the scientists I worked with, because they are generally not balanced. They have tunnel vision.

I'll stop posting so you can have a rest.

And as always Bill, you are a real gift from God. I can't think of another person like you.

[Bob]

Its interesting Val what you say about working with scientists with 'tunnel vision'. I got into a bit of a discussion with one of them in the medical field. He was indeed one of the best specialists, and the specialist vibrations causes them to be "compartmentalized", focused, and generally anti-social. He got so extremely pissed off when I was working a computer while he was jabbering about his view of the world, jumping on me in a huff, why wasn't I paying attention to him. (I was working with another fellow at the time, showing him something he was more interested in than the 'scientist's jabbering..) I responded, _______, my dear fellow, I can do 5 things simultaneously. I multi-task, not only have I been following what you are talking about, I've solved it and come up with a series of questions which will test your hypothesis, and then come up with solution and alternatives. I beg you to "chill".. And he stormed out in an arrogant huff.

That's the issue being forced into doing something that one is not interested in, especially a task given to one by another, who "knows best". Don't change if it works for you to suit another. Their issues are their issues, you have one's choice to view from a perspective of optimism, or pessimism, to "believe" that someone else has the "answers for you", or not.

A good question to ask oneself is this, "What is it that I have with-held from 'myself' and haven't communicated to ME". Communicate that and there is no more a "giving up feeling".. Giving up happens when one hasn't listened to oneself nor adequately communicated with oneself. One made goals at one time, was maybe told those goals are unachievable by others. If one believed that, one then was programmed by others to do another's wishes, thereby evoking frustration, "ole sarge feelings", feelings of powerless... Communicate. Starting with oneself..

[AutumnW]

What an amazing thread! Heartfelt thanks to all who opened up here.

Mike, you mentioned a few times that you were low on the dominance hierarchy? I think I have that right? I thought long and hard about that and about Jordan Peterson. Peterson is very articulate, a great thinker. He appears to be a realist and common sense guy.

Go clean your room! Certainly...this is so basic that people handily overlook the necessity of maintaining structure and order in the mundane world. We retain or acquire dignity by exerting our will in the most fundamental ways, in areas where nearly all of us can function.

You can tell whose lives are a complete (and largely unnecessary) mess by entering their homes. They live in chaos, over shop, over eat, over drink, start projects they never finish and are always embroiled in drama that is someone else's fault. If somebody has to kick an old empty pizza box out of the way to greet you at the door, their subsequent tales of woe are often their own creations.

But....as far as the Peterson video goes, it's really necessary to bare in mind that he is addressing Ivy League kids. If his prescriptions for a successful life aren't placed in the proper context, they feed delusions of the hard right.

--will submit this now and return to it later! Am very exhausted.

[Valerie Villars]

Its interesting Val what you say about working with scientists with 'tunnel vision'. I got into a bit of a discussion with one of them in the medical field. He was indeed one of the best specialists, and the specialist vibrations causes them to be "compartmentalized", focused, and generally anti-social. He got so extremely pissed off when I was working a computer while he was jabbering about his view of the world, jumping on me in a huff, why wasn't I paying attention to him. (I was working with another fellow at the time, showing him something he was more interested in than the 'scientist's jabbering..) I responded, _______, my dear fellow, I can do 5 things simultaneously. I multi-task, not only have I been following what you are talking about, I've solved it and come up with a series of questions which will test your hypothesis, and then come up with solution and alternatives. I beg you to "chill".. And he stormed out in an arrogant huff.

That's the issue being forced into doing something that one is not interested in, especially a task given to one by another, who "knows best". Don't change if it works for you to suit another. Their issues are their issues, you have one's choice to view from a perspective of optimism, or pessimism, to "believe" that someone else has the "answers for you", or not.

A good question to ask oneself is this, "What is it that I have with-held from 'myself' and haven't communicated to ME". Communicate that and there is no more a "giving up feeling".. Giving up happens when one hasn't listened to oneself nor adequately communicated with oneself. One made goals at one time, was maybe told those goals are unachievable by others. If one believed that, one then was programmed by others to do another's wishes, thereby evoking frustration, "ole sarge feelings", feelings of powerless... Communicate. Starting with oneself..

They (and they did have some very nice ones who seemed to have a clue) for the most part were in a huff because I wasn't intimidated by them because they were "smarter" than me. One actually got very ugly because I addressed him by his first name in an email.

He very ugily explained to me that unless I had a doctorate, I had no right to do so and that when addressing his highness, I had to use the word Dr. in front of his name. He was actually a pompous idiot.

Sorry Mike for derailing.

[Bob]

I don't think it is derailing - the subject line for the thread talks about giving up.. Why one gives up comes from being badgered, being told one is nothing (and believing it), and to watch especially those with the "uniforms", the "labels" do that, with intimidation is how the alleged "authority" nails one to a cross to prove to themselves or "show off to others" that they are best. It is a sicko-alpha mentality that pushes one who is asking questions into submission.

No stinkin phD or other degree makes one any better than any other, nor does any suit, badge, uniform, stick or rock. It just defines how well they are adept at bullying, or lying that they are superior to others. After a while of a life of that, one "gives up", or one understands how to rebel against that effectively.

Or one is able to define that the "emperor has no clothes". It is falling for the programming, and feeling powerless. With the point about communicating with oneself, that rehabilitates ability for having goals identified once again, those suppressed or buried by 'other's' intimidations.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I chose to be poor. I chose to live life on my terms. I forgot I have no one to blame but myself.
Nobody dominates me ever. If I cannot reason with them I become combative. If that doesn't work I leave.
Sometimes that has cost me much. My most recent rebelliousness has cost me at least several hundred thousand dollars and a whole lot of needless stress.
Hey, not bad for phone pecking...

[AutumnW]

....continued.

As far as the dominance hierarchy goes, most millenials and many Gen X'rs are low on the hierarchy as there are political and economic forces at play here that the individual has little control over. The service industry has been the one sector where jobs are being created. The middle rungs of the class ladder have been sawed off, as those without money serve cocktails, lattes, croissants to those who do. This has to be taken into account, or those who are doing all the right things, can still be crushed under the weight of their own self contempt.

Through other Peterson videos I see he IS providing a valuable service. He is giving young men, in particular, a stern talking to, as males, not neutered beings forced to aquiesce to delusions that radiate from ivory tower academia. As much as the hard right are saddled with their own delusions, the radical academic left has morphed from being pro-feminist to an incomprehensible jabbering idiot. It's infantile. That's it. It has become pro- wailing infant.

Back to your point about power and dominance and where you fit in, Mike and this goes for others as well. You may lack financial power, but you are an intellectual force to contend with and you have something that many with power lack and that is natural authority and influence, through the written word.

By chance, I watched a movie on Netflix related to a lot of the ideas here called, "Brad's Status," and a documentary by one of the young members of the Johnston And Johnson dynasty. Think his name is Simon Johnson and the documentary is called, "Rich Kids." You can find it on YouTube.

[RunningDeer]

By chance, I watched a movie on Netflix related to a lot of the ideas here called, "Brad's Status," and a documentary by one of the young members of the Johnston And Johnson dynasty. Think his name is Simon Johnson and the documentary is called, "Rich Kids." You can find it on YouTube.
Other episodes of “Rich Kids (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rich+kids+documentary+2017+)” around the world.


BRAD'S STATUS Trailer (2017)
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Rich Kids Of Instagram Full Documentary
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Richest Kids In The World!
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♡

[AutumnW]

Running Deer,

You're the best!! Thanks. The Rich Kids video I was referring to was called just that, "Rich Kids." I will see if I can find it. These videos are enlightening, too.

[AutumnW]

"Born Rich" Children of the Insanely Wealthy. I was mistaken...again. Happening much more these days. Scary!:confused:

If you could provide a link I would much appreciate it!

[RunningDeer]

"Born Rich" Children of the Insanely Wealthy. I was mistaken...again. Happening much more these days. Scary!:confused:

If you could provide a link I would much appreciate it!
:wave:

Born Rich: Children Of The Insanely Wealthy
mQxYQmn62Qk

[AutumnW]

:heart: Muchos Grassy Ass, Running Deer!!!

[shaberon]

I worry that 3d-reality-as-illusion is sort of like the new age's answer to the biblical 'rapture'. If the world isn't real (or in the case of the bible, is going to end at any moment) and nothing really matters, why do anything? Why even lift a finger? Apathy sets in. Nihilism. It tends to suck the motivation out of the room:)

...This is the concept of the "warrior" in the Castaneda material.

Yes exactly...that describes another error that will make you want to give up. By "illusion", there is no intent to say "non-existent", let alone "meaningless". 3D is simply not permanent, always changing; nothing is stable, and there is no lasting happiness ever to be found by looking at worldly affairs.

When you emphasize "experience", and as Foxie Loxie says in the next post, making consciousness primary right from the start, there is no escapism. Puts us in the warrior position. There remain things inside ourselves that simply must be destroyed, which is our own responsibility. Others may encourage us, but no one else can do it. There is no reason I should get angry today, but, I already have, simply because I am not strong enough to let go of certain impulses inside myself. Even though I know it buries the actual nature of consciousness, which is pure and blissful. That nature is permanent and real, but, aside from perhaps a few brief tastes, it is very, very difficult to keep it anchored in the brain, since the slightest disturbance will whisk it away. Any attachment to the illusion will do that.

In Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna slew some 250,000 of his own kinsmen without getting angry. He really wanted to give up and not do it. But it was his duty. Most of us are not Princes, but in some small way, we have a duty to protect the helpless just the same. Arjuna was not even a perfected soul. He simply gained the ability to sacrifice his apathy and face danger. This is the way to proceed, even though many times the helpless person we are protecting is our self.

[RunningDeer]

:heart: Muchos Grassy Ass, Running Deer!!!

De nada, AutumnW. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/flower-rainbow.gif

[Foxie Loxie]

Hey, Val....You are a fish that jumped into the right pond!!(Hope that wasn't racist!) Isn't is wonderful when you discover there is nothing wrong with YOU?!! :highfive:

If others are unable to "relate" to you, it's simply because they are operating on a different wavelength. :facepalm: I admire very much how you have come through all your "stuff" & how you have dealt with it! Kudos to you, Dear Girl!! :heart: Avalon IS the place for you....we all just keep learning as we go!

[Valerie Villars]

Foxie, you are such an angel.

In looking back over my life, I used to wonder why everyone else in my family got the cush job in the family business, when I had just as much of a right as they did.

But now I see how my inability to pretend the emperor had clothes on and my instinctive push for truth and meaning just made me stronger and stronger and stronger. I don't feel less than anyone but know learning is never ending.

I realize now, as hard as it was, taking the road less traveled was the way to go. Blessings to you little sister.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



"Born Rich" Children of the Insanely Wealthy. I was mistaken...again. Happening much more these days. Scary!:confused:

If you could provide a link I would much appreciate it!
:wave:

Born Rich: Children Of The Insanely Wealthy
mQxYQmn62Qk

Well that was an interesting film. They are just as petty and silly as anyone else, but with more money.

[Billy]

Much love to everyone. All I have to say for the noo is "never give up". :heart:

98lNKjwYtaU

[Foxie Loxie]

Not available in my country!! :bigsmile:

[RunningDeer]

Much love to everyone. All I have to say for the noo is "never give up". :heart:

Not available in my country!! :bigsmile:

Peter Gabriel - Don't Give Up (ft. Kate Bush)
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Don’t Give Up

by: Peter Gabriel

In this proud land we grew up strong
We were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail

No fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my name, I've changed my face
But no one wants you when you lose
Don't give up
'Cause you have friends

Don't give up
You're not beaten yet
Don't give up
I know you can make it good

Though I saw it all around
Never thought I could be affected
Thought that we'd be the last to go
It is so strange the way things turn

Drove the night toward my home
The place that I was born, on the lakeside
As daylight broke, I saw the earth
The trees had burned down to the ground

Don't give up
You still have us
Don't give up
We don't need much of anything
Don't give up
'Cause somewhere there's a place
Where we belong

Rest your head
You worry too much
It's going to be alright
When times get rough
You can fall back on us
Don't give up
Please don't give up

'Got to walk out of here
I can't take anymore
Going to stand on that bridge
Keep my eyes down below
Whatever may come
And whatever may go
That river's flowing
That river's flowing

Moved on to another town
Tried hard to settle down
For every job, so many men
So many men no-one needs
Don't give up
'Cause you have friends

Don't give up
You're not the only one
Don't give up
No reason to be ashamed
Don't give up
You still have us
Don't give up now

We're proud of who you are
Don't give up
You know it's never been easy
Don't give up
'Cause I believe there's a place
There's a place where we belong

[Mike]

According to Peterson, dominance hierarchies are something like 300 million years old. He frequently uses the example of the lobster to illustrate this (not gonna go into that too much at the moment)

He usually brings this up to illustrate that, yes, although they are prone to corruption, hierarchies are often useful and are not necessarily power based; that they are indeed - when functioning properly - based on competence (of course when they become disordered and tyrannical, that's a different story. Hitler and Stalin give us perfect examples of that)

It's made me view the power pyramid that we refer to in this community in a slightly different way. Yes, it's true that people are discriminated against in all facets of life(women, minorities etc), but if you take something like employment, for example, that discrimination only represents one data point of many when it comes to determining success. People often wind up in various circumstances for all sorts of reasons.

The people in power, for example....the illuminatti, if you will...the top of the pyramid...whatever. If we operate on the assumption that hierarchies are a natural component of human society, something ancient and intrinsic, and are based primarily on competency before power, then we may need to re-evaluate our judgements of those we often view as enemies.

Of course, there is wide-spread evil and corruption at the top. No denying that. But human nature being what it is, certain types of people organically arrive at certain positions of power; this is what happened in the beginning, i believe, with the so called ruling families. They arrived at the top of the dominance hierarchy thru competence, guile, will, and industriousness. No wonder they feel entitled to all their power - they outworked the rest of us to get there, and they'll be damned if they simply relinquish it.

Here's the thing, and it's hard to admit: if we all started from ground zero all over again, with everything being equal, the dominance hierarchy would, over time, likely be structured the way it's structured now. Based on individual talents are personality traits (and various other things), we all ultimately settle into certain niches. That's why concepts of redistribution are faulty and unrealistic.

But they're evil on the top of the pyramid, Mike! they must be stopped! I agree! I don't claim to know all the answers...I'm just kind of wading through it myself. But I will say this: when Alexander Solzhenitsyn was in the Soviet forced labor camps for all those years, through deep contemplation he was forced to admit to himself that anybody - even the most pious person - could have committed some of the atrocities that the secret police and interrogators did. It all just came down to where you were and who you happened to be when Stalin started his purge. Basically he realized we are all capable of the best and the worst. An either-it's-you-or-me mentality sinks in, and folks do all sorts of evil deeds to stay on the "winning team"..

...and I think that's what we see with the illuminatti these days. But there is some wisdom in asking oneself, honestly, what you would do in such a position. We all like to think that if we existed in Nazi Germany, for example, that we would have been the first to speak up. Probably not! Some of these people at the top now are victims of their own power and influence, and the expectations of those around them.

Even here on Avalon, there is a subtle hierarchy. And it's useful! It's the reason this place is so ordered and civilized compared to some of the others out there.

I just find it curious that many of us in the alt community (i hate saying that...i sound like Jimmy Church for Christ sake) often find ourselves at the bottom of this dominance hierarchy...and how much, if any, responsibility are we willing to accept for being there. Are we truly repressed?... or are we that shy guy at the dance, brooding in the corner, intensely disliking the courageous guy who asked the pretty girl to dance?...disliking him for no other reason than he made us realize our cowardice even more clearly.

[Mike]

Hey Autumn:highfive:,

yes youre right of course...the distorted "right" have tried to embrace Peterson, and he frequently rebukes them.

I like what you said about the power we *do* have...and that's the power of speech and articulation.

Speech and articulation - the most powerful tools around, maybe. It's the only thing that gives order to this mess. Very few people can actually think their way through a problem...but, if they're competent enough, they can write or talk their way through it! God, sooooo important! I often don't know how i feel about something until i post about it!

And it's a lost art. Very few people are good writers and speakers these days. Even if one is naturally intelligent, it's useless if they can't articulate their ideas. In my last thread, I said we have all a responsibility to become artists...and I meant that we sooo desperately need to become better communicators, both in speech and print.

I think we have a personal responsibility to become better communicators; if we can't communicate our ideas, especially to ourselves, especially in challenging life situations, we get swallowed up by chaos; depression ensues, poor decisions, along with an elevator trip down to the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. We indulge bad habits and escapism, blame our friends, family, the illuminatti...whoever. We find ourselves in crisis. This all sort of ties in.

[Valerie Villars]

Hence the importance of stories, too. The wisdom imparted can't be overstated.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I have always found that my ability to articulate is not an advantage in most settings. With others of like mind and matching intelligence it is but with strangers especially it is taken as being aloof and superior. Even though one takes special care to articulate correctly so as to convey the intent clearly, if the other is not vibing it ain't gonna gel. Then all one can do is shorten the sentences use lots of slang and cuss words and keep it real simple.

[Mike]

Hence the importance of stories, too. The wisdom imparted can't be overstated.



Yes!!!

The ideal place to be, according to Peterson (and I agree) is to be mostly ordered, but with a foot of 2 dangling in the chaos a little.

And where does the order come from? Our past. Generations upon generations of wisdom. Always open to the future , which is the unknown and represented by chaos, but rooted in our present and the wisdom of our past....all communicated thru articulated speech

If we commit the sin of communicating poorly we run the risk of forgetting, right? ..forgetting the holocaust, Stalinist Russia, slavery, 9/11. Stories must be told. So vital.

These kids that can barely text a coherent sentence to each other these days...how will they remember? This does worry me!

[Mike]

I have always found that my ability to articulate is not an advantage in most settings. With others of like mind and matching intelligence it is but with strangers especially it is taken as being aloof and superior. Even though one takes special care to articulate correctly so as to convey the intent clearly, if the other is not vibing it ain't gonna gel. Then all one can do is shorten the sentences use lots of slang and cuss words and keep it real simple.


Yep, I can see that.

I would say that the art of communicating begins, first and foremost, with knowing your audience...and adjusting accordingly.

I know what ya mean Ernie. It's a tough spot. If you feel as though you are being forced to dumb yourself down amongst certain people, I would suggest avoiding them as much as possible. Easier said than done, I know

But there is a way to communicate clearly and intelligently without sounding pretentious. This is the 'art' side to it

:)

[Ernie Nemeth]

I'm often pretentious by design. The shock factor is a learning tool.

[Mike]

I've been rambling a little bit here...

For the sake of organization:

the title of the thread is "when you feel like giving up". I didn't mean to veer too far from that, but I also didn't want this to be a list of trite platitudes; I wanted to dig a little deeper. So, some bullet points..

- if you find yourself depressed, ready to quit, and on the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, don't start cursing hierarchies lol. It's a waste of energy. They've been here for 300 million years. They are a natural condition of the planet

- using articulated speech (or writing) honestly assess your situation.

- ask yourself, am I engaging or escaping life?

- take personal responsibility for your situation. Acknowledge that you're a mess. By accepting that you are the cause, you also empower yourself to become the answer

- the only way out of crisis is to acknowledge you are a mess, take responsibility for it, and proceed - bit by tedious bit - to climb out of the underworld, starting with the smallest of gestures if need be...like cleaning your room for example.

- articulate very specifically what your goals are. This does take some courage, because you may fail at first. But if you don't set specific goals for yourself, you are failing all the time. If you don't have a goal, there will be no reason to get out of bed in the morning...and when you're depressed and ready to give up, that's hard enough as is

- if you don't have a job, get one...no matter how mundane or tedious. If youre not supporting yourself, youll have a hard time respecting yourself. Plus It'll give you another reason to wake up in the morning. And it's a small step towards becoming responsible for oneself and developing the self respect necessary to realize that *you do matter*. Take on as much responsibility as you can...and you'll get stronger and stronger from having to lift it. Like lifting weights.

...i may have forgotten a few things, but that's about it.

[Caliban]

I've been rambling a little bit here...

For the sake of organization:

the title of the thread is "when you feel like giving up". I didn't mean to veer too far from that, but I also didn't want this to be a list of trite platitudes; I wanted to dig a little deeper. So, some bullet points..

- if you find yourself depressed, ready to quit, and on the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, don't start cursing hierarchies lol. It's a waste of energy. They've been here for 300 million years. They are a natural condition of the planet

- using articulated speech (or writing) honestly assess your situation.

- ask yourself, am I engaging or escaping life?

- take personal responsibility for your situation. Acknowledge that you're a mess. By accepting that you are the cause, you also empower yourself to become the answer

- the only way out of crisis is to acknowledge you are a mess, take responsibility for it, and proceed - bit by tedious bit - to climb out of the underworld, starting with the smallest of gestures if need be...like cleaning your room for example.

- articulate very specifically what your goals are. This does take some courage, because you may fail at first. But if you don't set specific goals for yourself, you are failing all the time. If you don't have a goal, there will be no reason to get out of bed in the morning...and when you're depressed and ready to give up, that's hard enough as is

- if you don't have a job, get one...no matter how mundane or tedious. If youre not supporting yourself, youll have a hard time respecting yourself. Plus It'll give you another reason to wake up in the morning. And it's a small step towards becoming responsible for oneself and developing the self respect necessary to realize that *you do matter*. Take on as much responsibility as you can...and you'll get stronger and stronger from having to lift it. Like lifting weights.

...i may have forgotten a few things, but that's about it.

So basically this guy's another self-help guru with a charismatic public speaking presence and a courageous debating style.

Can't we do a little better than "clean up your room." How about "burn down your room". Get a job? How about "Be realistic -- demand the impossible."

Look, no doubt this guy is helping people and if you can help one man or woman, hurrah, the world is better. But thinking about Paris (50 yrs ago) in May of '68 I wonder --- have we fallen so far from the possibilities of living that we're still mired in the material and the diurnal? I know--you can't live without money. But for whatever you think of those kids and others in '68 there, they were reaching for something. Maybe they didn't have a name for it, but - - it was something different. It was personal and collective. It was new. I see another idol. When again it's iconoclasts we need.

[Mike]

I've been rambling a little bit here...

For the sake of organization:

the title of the thread is "when you feel like giving up". I didn't mean to veer too far from that, but I also didn't want this to be a list of trite platitudes; I wanted to dig a little deeper. So, some bullet points..

- if you find yourself depressed, ready to quit, and on the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, don't start cursing hierarchies lol. It's a waste of energy. They've been here for 300 million years. They are a natural condition of the planet

- using articulated speech (or writing) honestly assess your situation.

- ask yourself, am I engaging or escaping life?

- take personal responsibility for your situation. Acknowledge that you're a mess. By accepting that you are the cause, you also empower yourself to become the answer

- the only way out of crisis is to acknowledge you are a mess, take responsibility for it, and proceed - bit by tedious bit - to climb out of the underworld, starting with the smallest of gestures if need be...like cleaning your room for example.

- articulate very specifically what your goals are. This does take some courage, because you may fail at first. But if you don't set specific goals for yourself, you are failing all the time. If you don't have a goal, there will be no reason to get out of bed in the morning...and when you're depressed and ready to give up, that's hard enough as is

- if you don't have a job, get one...no matter how mundane or tedious. If youre not supporting yourself, youll have a hard time respecting yourself. Plus It'll give you another reason to wake up in the morning. And it's a small step towards becoming responsible for oneself and developing the self respect necessary to realize that *you do matter*. Take on as much responsibility as you can...and you'll get stronger and stronger from having to lift it. Like lifting weights.

...i may have forgotten a few things, but that's about it.

So basically this guy's another self-help guru with a charismatic public speaking presence and a courageous debating style.

Can't we do a little better than "clean up your room." How about "burn down your room". Get a job? How about "Be realistic -- demand the impossible."

Look, no doubt this guy is helping people and if you can help one man or woman, hurrah, the world is better. But thinking about Paris (50 yrs ago) in May of '68 I wonder --- have we fallen so far from the possibilities of living that we're still mired in the material and the diurnal? I know--you can't live without money. But for whatever you think of those kids and others in '68 there, they were reaching for something. Maybe they didn't have a name for it, but - - it was something different. It was personal and collective. It was new. I see another idol. When again it's iconoclasts we need.

Thanks for posting Caliban.

It's not cleaning up your room that is really important (although it is), it's that it represents one small step towards making order out of chaos. It's more of a symbolic act than anything else.

And yes, of course we should shoot higher than that!:) That's just a symbolic first step on a journey towards order and discipline. Because regardless of what you're trying to accomplish, whether it's moving up the corporate ladder or doing whatever you were doing in Paris in 1968, you have to start there!

Self help guru? I can see why you'd say that, but i dont think you've read his book. It's actually quite dark! It's pretty heavy stuff. It's sort of a dense read and you have to really work your way thru it. There are no superficial, light n bouncy encouragements. It's stark, gritty realism.

I'd encourage you to read his latest book. He is nothing if not an iconoclast, in my view.

[Mike]

You really nailed it here, Bob.:star:


A good question to ask oneself is this, "What is it that I have with-held from 'myself' and haven't communicated to ME". Communicate that and there is no more a "giving up feeling".. Giving up happens when one hasn't listened to oneself nor adequately communicated with oneself. One made goals at one time, was maybe told those goals are unachievable by others. If one believed that, one then was programmed by others to do another's wishes, thereby evoking frustration, "ole sarge feelings", feelings of powerless... Communicate. Starting with oneself..

[happyuk]

Its interesting Val what you say about working with scientists with 'tunnel vision'. I got into a bit of a discussion with one of them in the medical field. He was indeed one of the best specialists, and the specialist vibrations causes them to be "compartmentalized", focused, and generally anti-social. He got so extremely pissed off when I was working a computer while he was jabbering about his view of the world, jumping on me in a huff, why wasn't I paying attention to him. (I was working with another fellow at the time, showing him something he was more interested in than the 'scientist's jabbering..) I responded, _______, my dear fellow, I can do 5 things simultaneously. I multi-task, not only have I been following what you are talking about, I've solved it and come up with a series of questions which will test your hypothesis, and then come up with solution and alternatives. I beg you to "chill".. And he stormed out in an arrogant huff.

That's the issue being forced into doing something that one is not interested in, especially a task given to one by another, who "knows best". Don't change if it works for you to suit another. Their issues are their issues, you have one's choice to view from a perspective of optimism, or pessimism, to "believe" that someone else has the "answers for you", or not.

A good question to ask oneself is this, "What is it that I have with-held from 'myself' and haven't communicated to ME". Communicate that and there is no more a "giving up feeling".. Giving up happens when one hasn't listened to oneself nor adequately communicated with oneself. One made goals at one time, was maybe told those goals are unachievable by others. If one believed that, one then was programmed by others to do another's wishes, thereby evoking frustration, "ole sarge feelings", feelings of powerless... Communicate. Starting with oneself..

They (and they did have some very nice ones who seemed to have a clue) for the most part were in a huff because I wasn't intimidated by them because they were "smarter" than me. One actually got very ugly because I addressed him by his first name in an email.

He very ugily explained to me that unless I had a doctorate, I had no right to do so and that when addressing his highness, I had to use the word Dr. in front of his name. He was actually a pompous idiot.

Sorry Mike for derailing.

Sadly you are actually correct when talking about many academics. I know this from personal experience. Many can be somewhat precious personalities. Many have that unmistakable false pride that comes with being able to grasp complex theories and explain them with erudition. Many use their hyper intelligence to cover up for the fact they actually live arid, over intellectualised meaningless lives

[Smell the Roses]

Regarding the pyramid being based on competence, that is a concept worth contemplating. It’s definitely not based on kindness or spirituality or intellect. But I would have said that our world favors the mediocre, and that for the most part the mediocre and uncreative rise to the top. I have always seen those people as jealous of creativity and of raw intellect and thus oppressing and suppressing them. They are the people who had to study really hard in school to do well.

However, I can admit that those people are able to get things done, and thus are indeed “competent”. My friend gave me a poster for a gift when I was a teenager that read “If I were organized I’d be dangerous.” It may indeed be the case that those of us at the bottom of the pyramid could become dangerous if we were organized. Boy, those “competent” folks would really be annoyed if that happened!

[Mike]

Regarding the pyramid being based on competence, that is a concept worth contemplating. It’s definitely not based on kindness or spirituality or intellect. But I would have said that our world favors the mediocre, and that for the most part the mediocre and uncreative rise to the top. I have always seen those people as jealous of creativity and of raw intellect and thus oppressing and suppressing them. They are the people who had to study really hard in school to do well.

However, I can admit that those people are able to get things done, and thus are indeed “competent”. My friend gave me a poster for a gift when I was a teenager that read “If I were organized I’d be dangerous.” It may indeed be the case that those of us at the bottom of the pyramid could become dangerous if we were organized. Boy, those “competent” folks would really be annoyed if that happened!



You certainly have some points there, but it all depends on what pyramid we're talking about, right?

In this world there are hierarchies inside hierarchies inside hierarchies...and so on, like those Russian nesting dolls.

Some are useful, and organized by competence, industriousness, intelligence...and believe it or not, kindness. Most families are dominance hierarchies...and if they weren't, society as we know it would crumble. So that's a productive hierarchy, I think we all would agree.

But I won't mince words here...I know you're talking about our government, or the so called 'deep state', or illuminatti, or whatever term one wishes to use.

Yep, organization is right up there with competence and industriousness as indicators of success, or of potential positions in the dominance hierarchy. Striving to make order out of chaos in one's life is the very definition of being organized, far as I'm concerned. And when you want to give up in life, when you are at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy, it's usually the result of years of disorder. Therefore, the only thing that will save you is order....not aliens, ascended masters, gurus, or psychics. This is a lesson I've learned the hard way!:)

One may be at a point in one'e life where one is at such a disadvantaged state, that one feels totally powerless. But there are still choices to make. The way to create order out of chaos is to keep making choices, and to do it in a deliberate, methodical way. To not make choices is to not think, and to not think is to give up. Even if that choice is a simple one, like getting up early in the morning to take a walk. It sounds remarkably simple but it can have a profound effect over the course of just a week- you are thinking, engaging life, making choices, and establishing order in your life...which are things you may not have done in years! And then you build on that. Over time, with discipline, order, and unbending intent..you can climb out of the underworld.

Most people, when they get that low, are looking for the home run, or the quick fix. When this doesn't happen they indulge escapism. They are waiting for the miracle...but the miracle won't occur while you are escaping life, it will only occur while you are engaging it. This is the biggest secret; this is the magical ingredient for the alchemy to take place. And engaging life can start with something incredibly simple, like cleaning your room, or keeping a schedule.

I used to escape constantly. Still do when necessary (and sometimes it is necessary, to pace oneself). But what happens is, when done in excess, it stops helping you and begins hindering you. Escaping becomes your new normal. The time you spend escaping life exceeds the time you spend actually living it; you take this for granted; you don't even know you're doing it. And then 10 or 20 years goes by and you finally realize you've been living your life from the sidelines the whole time. Ohhh what a regret!

[shaberon]

Concerning the "dominance hierarchy", here is a military analogy. It was an exercise to install a pre-fab bridge, which had to be put into position rapidly, because dinner was on the other side. The unit is led by a Lieutenant. He has no experience with bridges or any kind of construction at all. And so very quickly, his "leadership" vanishes, and the Privates, who know what they are doing, suddenly are in charge and get the bridge built in one day and everybody eats.

Now in that case, the Lieutenant made a good choice to step aside, at least temporarily, to reach the goal. He had no choice. The difficulty arises when such persons will not budge; they "know it all" or have some other means of choice or hiding from, or avoiding the consequences of their actions. Unless they can be trapped in a corner where they might not eat, then they don't even blink no matter what goes on. This is some kind of "dominant escapism".

Can you imagine one of those oafs stuck in your shoes for a single day? They'd disintegrate.

I personally believe that our original hierarchies were based purely from wisdom, competence, merit, and the like, and what we mostly have now is a grand substitute made of money and other kinds of ego-stroking. It can't possibly last. It may be like that big oak tree that weathers a hundred storms before it snaps, because it cannot bend. The choice of how big and powerful that storm gets, is up to the people who are generating it. There is a lot of energy in it, and "placing it into order" is a good idea, so you don't start lashing out wildly and blindly. Anger is about the worst thing you can bring to a fight. You can defeat them simply by doing the right thing.

The last thing I fought was a pair of pit bulls. There was no anger, or even a second's thought of self-preservation, and I defeated them. In fact I didn't even hurt them. This physical thing, which may happen occasionally, is just a mirror of the mental one that happens continuously. So you definitely have to keep thinking, and probably do numerous evasions, until the right moment comes and you can stop something big and mean--those moments will come, but can we do it?

Are we even prepared to try?