Looking for Teacher Who Understands Gnosticism, Platonism and Neo-Platonism

[Truthster013]

Greetings, I'm looking for someone who REALLY knows their proverbial **** in the area of Gnosticsm in particular but also Platonism and Neo-Platanism. I'm looking for some really good sources that describe the platonic/gnostic concept of the formation of the physical universe (i.e. sophia, yaldabaoth, the demiurge, archons, etc) from a layman's point of view. I've got a lot of education in the Christian/Judaeo/western esoteric schools but trying to really better understand the Gnostic view along with some of the early philosophies that formed the basis of Gnosticism. What I hope is to find someone who's VERY educated on this and can open a personal dialogue with me (here, email or even voice chat) and answer questions and/or point me to resources to educate me on subjects I'm just not quite getting. I have been reading a lot of stuff on Gnosticism lately but a lot of it assumes I already get certain concepts or terms and I need to back up more and ask "Ok, when it says this what does that really mean". Does anyone here have the heart of a teacher who would enjoy fielding personal questions and helping me understand the concepts and areas to study and grow my understanding of Gnosticism and the basis of it from Platonic thought?

[DNA]

I would keep it less specified, your list of demands might as well include a massage and a happy ending while you are at it.

For all you know, you may be the most knowledgeable person on the forum about this subject, and yet learn quite a bit through harmless unstructured dialogue.

How about "does anyone want to talk about Gnosticism?".

I think that would be a far better request.

[Eagle Eye]

First if someone says its an expert in this kind of field than he isn't at all :) Its an infinite disscussion with infinite answers.

If I have to give a small advice in understanding gnosticism (Jewish/Christian/Islam) I have to say that, let go the rituals religious stuff and go straight to the holy books (no other religious writings or interpretation). If you want to understand those ancient scriptures, read without initial judgement just start to open a new possibility, if you read judging (this is possible or not possible or right or wrong), you wont find what you are looking.

[TargeT]

Best to start here: http://www.triviumeducation.com/

until you have at least a solid grasp of the 7 liberal arts (structured, critical thinking) searching for further information is almost pointless as it is so easily misconstrued/misunderstood.

[Gunther]

That's definitely not me, but I am also very interested in Gnostics. The Cathars in particular look like they are worth investigating. I think the whole idea is that Yadalbaoth is Yahweh and he created the materiel universe. Plato talks about the world of ideas and the world of forms, our physical realty. Apparently, the world of ideas is the real one, where everything exists in prime form, as pure idea and thought, before becoming manifest in the world of forms, Yadalbaoth's creation. In his cave metaphor, Plato talks about world of form as a projection of shadows on to the cave wall. That is how we experience it.

[Valerie Villars]

Best to start here: http://www.triviumeducation.com/

until you have at least a solid grasp of the 7 liberal arts (structured, critical thinking) searching for further information is almost pointless as it is so easily misconstrued/misunderstood.

Well, now I know why the ptb have poo pooed the whole liberal arts degree program. It actually teaches you something.

Truthster, I have recommended "The Other Bible" before. What Iceberg said is spot on. Having read much of it, I had a spiritual awakening and it opened up whole new layers of Gnostic wisdom. In other words, real grace is what allows you to know. That comes from teachers you can't see.

[Truthster013]

Thanks to all who have responded thus far. I understand that the topic is a bit broad and I am not "seeking" something other than someone who has a gift for explaining philosophical concepts that I am not sure I get. I assume someone out there knows a ton about the topics and would offer up themselves to answer some specific questions. At this point I'm just looking for someone who believes they understand there terms and what they generally mean.

[Jayke]

I've got a lot of education in the Christian/Judaeo/western esoteric schools but trying to really better understand the Gnostic view along with some of the early philosophies that formed the basis of Gnosticism.

Imagine a Vedic cosmology re-interpreted through the lens of middle-eastern men tripping out on potent hallucinogenics. That’d be my understanding of some of the early gnostic works.

Christian O’Briens book ‘The Path of Light’ (http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/path.php) is a translation of a sermon given by Jesus after he was supposedly crucified. Far too trippy for me though. I find the fruits of Gnosticism (i.e. hermetisicm) to be much easier for the layman to grasp, as we have lots of Renaissance sources to help elucidate it.

For academic sources, Tobias Churton is a professor who runs the only degree for esoteric studies in England, he’s done several books on Gnostic philosophy (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gnostic-Philosophy-Ancient-Persia-Modern/dp/1594770352/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

Joycelyn Godwin, another excellent academic who really knows his stuff, his book Golden Thread (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Golden-Thread-Ageless-Western-Traditions/dp/0835608603) is exceptional.

Feel free to field some questions though, we may be able to help! Personally, from what I’ve read on the Gnostics, I find most of their teachings and principles are most easily explained through daoist concepts and philosophy. Both being different strands of the same ancient wisdom.

[Truthster013]

I've got a lot of education in the Christian/Judaeo/western esoteric schools but trying to really better understand the Gnostic view along with some of the early philosophies that formed the basis of Gnosticism.

Imagine a Vedic cosmology re-interpreted through the lens of middle-eastern men tripping out on potent hallucinogenics. That’d be my understanding of some of the early gnostic works.

Christian O’Briens book ‘The Path of Light’ (http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/pathreview.php) is a translation of a sermon given by Jesus after he was supposedly crucified. Far too trippy for me though. I find the fruits of Gnosticism (i.e. hermetisicm) to be much easier for the layman to grasp, as we have lots of Renaissance sources to help elucidate it.

For academic sources, Tobias Churton is a professor who runs the only degree for esoteric studies in England, he’s done several books on Gnostic philosophy (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gnostic-Philosophy-Ancient-Persia-Modern/dp/1594770352/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

Joycelyn Godwin, another excellent academic who really knows his stuff, his book Golden Thread (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Golden-Thread-Ageless-Western-Traditions/dp/0835608603) is exceptional.

Feel free to field some questions though, we may be able to help! Personally, from what I’ve read on the Gnostics, I find most of their teachings and principles are most easily explained through daiost concepts and philosophy. Both being different strands of the same ancient wisdom.

Thank you for the book links. Those look helpful. I read so much I was hoping not to just get yet another book list but actually have a conversation. HOWEVER, those do look promising and in lieu of just having a conversation I might just have to pick up more books.

[snoman]

One by one.
Throw out one concept or term at a time.
Let's see what comes up.
Over to you

[Truthster013]

One by one.
Throw out one concept or term at a time.
Let's see what comes up.
Over to you

Ok. I'm first trying to make sure I understand the term archons and how they relate to the teaching that sophia created Yaldabaoth and hid him in a cloud so the other "gods" would not see what she'd done. I read that sophia was the least of seven gods of the spiritual realms (for lack of a better word) and that through Yaldabaoth they became the creators of our physical universe. But sophia hid the knowledge of the other gods from Yaldabaoth so he believed that he was the only true God. Do I understand that correct and why is sophia the "least" of the other gods and how can she "hide" Yaldabaoth and physical existence from them. Ok I know that's more than one question but it centers around what is sophia, why is she the least, and how can she hide physical matter from the others?

[Bo Atkinson]

As we offer our ideas here, mine is about Hylozoic Studies, based on Pythagorean esotericians. I’m newly reading the books and links at http://www.laurency.com/. Here is some of my initial effort to understand the complex books.

Plato is commended but not speculative philosophy following him in later times. Gnosticism is included but in a matter of fact style, dismissing so much of the traditional human records. Large amounts of highly accepted information, works, myths, scriptures, etc are flatly dismissed. A good number of known, far-eastern and western esotericians are validated and particular accounts are sorted through. The books look like scholarly material but most of academia is also debunked, due to rejected speculations, egotistical attributions (of academic citations) and financial pecking orders. At the same their exists a humanly unseen planetary hierarchy, which declares a hands-off policy on the human free will, to the point of allowing human self destruction. Yet this planetary hierarchy also releases advanced knowledge by inspiring wisdom and inventions, etc… Human leadership is debunked because we all fail to unify humanity. We are totally responsible because human free will determines our outcomes. Aeons of lifetimes provide a masterful opportunity for expansive growth of awareness. We seem to be stuck in primitivity. They say strife has relentlessly continued for aeons here, with worsening lessons for repeat offenders, who disrupt our planet and then reincarnate at lower levels. Our extreme difficulty could be inverted to great powers of awareness in unity. Law existing above man absolutely rules man, ultimately, regardless that we have to learn this law internally, or spiritually. We are on our own, to make spiritually required connections which are described at great length. My bet is many people will object to much of this. Hylozoic Knowledge is multifaceted requiring the self-evolution of humans. Hierarchies above man assist us through highly prescribed systems (which we need to expand awareness of). Science learning is absolutely essential, but it’s range of perception must be advanced through honest discovery. The multi disciplinary aspects integrating science, human faculties and cosmic spirituality, demands internal self assembly and certainly not rote learning. I’m oversimplifying the complex presentation.

[Caliban]

Truthster013,

We're all looking for a "teacher who understands." I mean, who isn't. The thing is, man, where do you find one?

I grok your attraction to the Gnostics. They were definitely onto something. (Onto nothing?) They were tapped into some real s--t. I don't who could really teach you about that, besides academically.

Read the texts and meditate on them. Find a circle of friends you could sit with (in person) and toss the ideas around. Maybe a Gnostic will visit you in a dream.

[Zak247]

Greetings, I'm looking for someone who REALLY knows their proverbial **** in the area of Gnosticsm in particular but also Platonism and Neo-Platanism. I'm looking for some really good sources that describe the platonic/gnostic concept of the formation of the physical universe (i.e. sophia, yaldabaoth, the demiurge, archons, etc) from a layman's point of view. I've got a lot of education in the Christian/Judaeo/western esoteric schools but trying to really better understand the Gnostic view along with some of the early philosophies that formed the basis of Gnosticism. What I hope is to find someone who's VERY educated on this and can open a personal dialogue with me (here, email or even voice chat) and answer questions and/or point me to resources to educate me on subjects I'm just not quite getting. I have been reading a lot of stuff on Gnosticism lately but a lot of it assumes I already get certain concepts or terms and I need to back up more and ask "Ok, when it says this what does that really mean". Does anyone here have the heart of a teacher who would enjoy fielding personal questions and helping me understand the concepts and areas to study and grow my understanding of Gnosticism and the basis of it from Platonic thought?

Gnosticism, the various sects called by that name, which of course they never called themselves that is a wide range of different but somewhat similar ideas.

There is neither a literal Gnostic codified religion anywhere nor Platonic either. These beliefs are frankly too obscure and old and because of the obstruction of the old Catholic church, they never were able to spread openly too much.

If you’re looking for an actual teaching master in those traditions, beyond scholarship, good luck.

The problem is in identifying a legitimate modern teacher of an obscure tradition…Not an easy task. One might look to Coptic sources or Hermetic sources.


I will say this to you...The word Gnostic is a generally recognized methodology of a Way to Knowledge. A methodology of receiving knowledge of the divine.

You’re going to have to seek, my friend. But there’s an old saying that might give you some solace

“It’s the teacher who finds the student”

If there's one out there, and you're a sincere seeker, he or she will find you

Keep looking

[Jayke]

Ok. I'm first trying to make sure I understand the term archons and how they relate to the teaching that sophia created Yaldabaoth and hid him in a cloud so the other "gods" would not see what she'd done. I read that sophia was the least of seven gods of the spiritual realms (for lack of a better word) and that through Yaldabaoth they became the creators of our physical universe. But sophia hid the knowledge of the other gods from Yaldabaoth so he believed that he was the only true God. Do I understand that correct and why is sophia the "least" of the other gods and how can she "hide" Yaldabaoth and physical existence from them. Ok I know that's more than one question but it centers around what is sophia, why is she the least, and how can she hide physical matter from the others?

It really isn't that complicated once you understand the underlying precepts of gnosticism, which are confusing and scattered to piece together with the gnostics because there were so many different sects, all teaching variations of the same material but with different, sometimes contradictory perspectives.

First concept to differentiate is the difference between optimist gnosticism vs pessimist gnosticism. Francis Yates explains the difference in her book Giordano Bruno and The Hermetic Tradition (https://www.amazon.com/Giordano-Bruno-Hermetic-Tradition-Frances/dp/0226950077).

Optimist gnostics see the material world as divine and mans place within it as sacred. These are the platonists, neo-platonists, Hermeticists and humanists.

Pessimist gnosticism is the belief that physical matter is an evil demiurge, and human souls are really fallen angels entrapped in the prison of matter. The Cathars best some up this group.

Core precept of the Nag Hammadi

Letting go of attachments would be the core philosophy, and this is where I prefer the daoist traditions, who were teaching the same goals yet the daoists managed to go through a consolidation of principles. In the west, the rise of christianity started to subjugate the gnostic groups, hunting them down and burning them at the stake.

In the East, all their gnostic groups settled matters through discourse and debates. Through all these debates, it was Mahayana Buddhism that eventually exemplified all the gnostic principles in an easily understood conceptual framework. Gampopa sums it all up with the saying "wherever there is attachment, association with it brings endless misery".

Mahayana describes spiritual development as occurring in 5 stages, they say there are 5 layers of personality a person has to detach from before finding enlightenment, before becoming one with the tao, before they can ascend the 8 spheres and return to god.

Bill Bodri explains these 5 skhanda layers of consciousness in his book 'Measuring Meditation (http://www.meditationexpert.com/measuringmeditation.html)'.

The Archons would be a reflection of what happens as you try and purify the fourth skhanda, 'the skhanda of volition', the layer of consciousness that controls all behaviour, impulses and volitions.

To understand why sophia is the least of the Gods you have to understand the realm of 'Hurqalya', a realm of supreme variety and wonder that runs parallel to the material world but is separate from it. The physical world is subject to death and decay, yet hurqalya is sublime and eternal, home to the spiritual laws and divine ideas. Jocelyn Godwins book I linked to above, the golden chain, explains this reality in more detail...as does Freddy Silvas book 'The Lost Art of Resurrection' (https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Resurrection-Initiation-Otherworld-ebook/dp/B01F7LDFYO).

In Hurqalya can be found the 7 heavens, the spheres of ascent that the gnostic soul must travel through to encounter the other Gods.

How do you access Hurqalya?

In the Nag Hammadi scriptures "Sophia is called 'silence', because in reflecting without a word she perfected her greatness". Basically you have to meditate, you have to silence the egos chatterbox voice in your skull and tune into the realm of the gods through your pineal gland. Sophia (silence) is the gateway that opens your consciousness to the extra sensory perceptions that exist beyond the world of physical matter. Once you've accessed that realm (which many gnostics did aided by potent hallucinogenics) then you can climb the hierarchy of the otherworld.

0tOhDvnWXdo

[Gunther]

Thank you Jayke. If you do not mind me saying, that sounds an awful like the teachings of Kundalini Yoga and Tantra, both in Buddhism and Hinduism. I often wonder if they may have the same source. I believe the Sufi tradition in Islam and the Kabbalah of Judasm have very similar teachings as well. It is all so fascinnating.

[Jayke]

Sufism and Taoism are also different branches of the same theology. A comparative study of key philosophical concepts (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0520052641/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1), by Izutsu, explores the similarities.

Can’t remember where I heard it (might have been Rene Guenon) which said that Sufi was also the name for those scribes that carved hieroglyphics in Ancient Egypt. The Jews weren’t a race but a degree within the Ancient Greek Eluesian mystery schools, according to Edith Star Millers book ‘Occult Theocracy’.

Kabbalah was originally Ancent Egyptian by my estimation. The ‘Ka’ ‘Ba’ being the ‘spirit’ and ‘soul’ in Egyptian. Ka-Ba-Ankh. The spirit and soul in the image of life. Could easily have become Ka-Ba-La, the spirit and soul in the image of light. The daoists also teach a similar concept with their ‘Phowa of the Dharmakaya (http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Phowa)’. It all explores the same concepts, how to let go of the human ego, so that the personality of man becomes harmonised with the personality and character of creation itself.

I personally believe all the different esoteric traditions can be traced back to the perennial philosophy (vedanta), which covered the whole world at one point, some evidence suggests 15,000BC, which would have been the peak of civilisation before the global floods and catastrophes.


"When the Great Tao prevailed the whole world was one community.  Men of talent and virtue were chosen to lead the people, their words were sincere and they cultivated harmony...this was the age of universality" - Confucius

[Gunther]

"When the Great Tao prevailed the whole world was one community.  Men of talent and virtue were chosen to lead the people, their words were sincere and they cultivated harmony...this was the age of universality" - Confucius[/QUOTE]

I would certainly agree with that. The Vedas claim that there was a global civilisiation all over the world more then ten thousand years ago. It certainly looks like it may have been a Vedic one, stretching at least from Egypt all the way to Vietnam and Indonesia. The similarity between Vedic deities and beliefs and those all over the ancient world, especially in Greece and Egypt is very interesting to say the least.

[Jayke]

I would certainly agree with that. The Vedas claim that there was a global civilisiation all over the world more then ten thousand years ago. It certainly looks like it may have been a Vedic one, stretching at least from Egypt all the way to Vietnam and Indonesia. The similarity between Vedic deities and beliefs and those all over the ancient world, especially in Greece and Egypt is very interesting to say the least.

We even have archeological evidence to back it up. Have you seen the presentation by Tim and Lee Hooker on the pre-Sumerian culture of Aratta. Predecessor of the Maha-baratta of the Vedic Indians.

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Tim and Lee Hooker actually petitioned the Pope, saying that Ukraine was home to a site of spiritual significance and that more funds should be given to do archeological work there. The Catholic Church is probably the last place they should’ve asked for support, since the Vatican has been trying to exterminate any knowledge of the Vedic heritage of Christianity for millennia. Next thing you know, “regime change” in Ukraine, and ancient knowledge suppressed as usual.

There is a detailed book by Dr Yuri Shilov Ancient History of Aratta-Ukraine: 20,000 BC - 1000AD (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1503076024/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that looks at the Vedic culture, and highlights the fact that if you study the history of one vedic deity ‘Mithra’, you’re basically studying the evolution of Vedic principles into Christian principles through Judaism etc. (Mithra was the God synonymous with the All-Seeing eye in the vedas. By time it reaches Christianity, the concept had devolved into the Mitre (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre), a hat the pope wears to declare his authority over all Christians and the world).

[Gunther]

That is very interesting, I will have to look into it. I read a book once, and I can't remember the title, but it was about how the original civilisation on earth, before Sumer, was around the black see, which includes Crimea and the Ukraine. Apparently the story of Enki, Gilgamesh, etc... comes from the memory of this great flood, that destroyed this coastal civilisation and remains of it can still be found if you go look in the now flooded black see basin. It was probably Aratta. Since the Aryans migrated to India from further West, they may very well have been the remains of this civilisation, which had to leave its home after the greet flood. I live in the Danube basin area and there are many remains of the Mithras cult here. I personally think he was the precursor of Jesus Christ. They (the Romans) took many of the elements of his cult and included it in the New Testament.

Update: found the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Flood-Scientific-Discoveries-Changed/dp/0684859203

Apparently this area, which is now under the black sea, was the original garden of Eden. It is associated with Enki as the God of the waters below.

[Jayke]

One of our members, uzn, did an excellent thread on unknown archeology of the Black Sea and surrounding areas last year.

Ancient Russia (megaliths, caves, sacred sites etc) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?99506-Ancient-Russia--Megaliths-Caves-Sacred-Sites-etc-).

The Kerch in Crimea is particularly interesting as it shows similar architectural designs to sites found in Mayan and Egyptian cultures. Depicted in Posts 20-23 in that thread, although the entire thread is a real goldmine.

[TargeT]

Ok. I'm first trying to make sure I understand the term

Trust me... starting with critical thinking skills makes this so much easier...

To build a house, the most boring part, and most important part is the foundation... if you are trying to understand new concepts with out a strong critical thinking base you will struggle every time ;)


crawl before you walk, walk be fore you run.. look before you run.. then run ;)









We're all looking for a "teacher who understands." I mean, who isn't. The thing is, man, where do you find one?


Look within, there is no external power/knowledge greater than you already hold; working on your self is the most important thing you can do in this reality..... and the ONLY thing you can directly influence.

[turiya]

"Gnosticism simply says this much: Each individual should follow his own inner being, dropping thoughts, imagination, emotions, sentiments - anything that comes in the way. It is not you. The simple principle of gnosticism is that anything that you can see as an object is not you. You are the seer, so you cannot be the seen." -- Osho (Light on the Path)

It appears to me that that you already have become distracted by accepting what others have said as being true. Borrowing what others have said, and accepting it as truth, this is what 'belief' is. Belief is an attempt to take a shortcut to finding truth.

For example, when it comes to religion, there are three categories that people usually fall into. The three categories: One is the theist - one who 'believes' that he knows God exists. Another is the atheist - one who 'believes' that he knows God does not exist; and the third is the agnositc - one knows that he is not in a position to say 'yes' or 'no' - at best he can say "I know that I don't know".

The agnostic is more honest of the three. But all three are ignorant.

The word 'agnostic' comes from the word 'gnostic'. Who is a gnostic? A gnostic is one who knows. That is the meaning of 'gnostic' - the knower.


Ok. I'm first trying to make sure I understand the term archons...

The first step taken in any search is the most important step one takes... because, if the first step is a misstep, then all other steps that follow will also be more missteps. It will lead one further & further away from finding truth.

With this term 'archons', is this something that has been picked up from elsewhere - A borrowed notion? From where has this term come from?

[Truthster013]

Thanks for the great and thoughtful response to my direct questions. I have been really busy today and you wrote a lot with a lot to chew on so I'll have to digest it as time allows in the days ahead. Thanks again!