Ty
4th January 2011, 14:57
I'm opening this thread to redirect a subtopic that was opened in Ahkenaten's "Can We Withdraw Consent from the Control Paradigm?" thread. That thread got sidetracked into these topics starting around post 206 and was the main focus of it from post 213 to 236 when Teakai suggested a separate thread.
While I am opening this thread please don't consider it "mine." I will not likely have time to reply to all posts and claim no authority on the subjects in question. I broached the subject in Ahk's thread because it had some relevance there and I was seeking other opinions on this. I doubt there is a definitive answer to the two primary questions but there is no shortage of opinions here.
I invite all to keep things cordial and inquisitive and explore these two ideas...
1) Free will is an illusion
2) What is consciousness?
Some background:
1) Free will is an illusion. I don't believe this but can't penetrate an argument made by a friend of mine which boils down to this. Every choice we make, belief we hold, thought we have arises from neural activity. Neural activity is the process of certain neurons firing in a certain order. Which neurons fire and in which order determines, among many other things, a thought, which ultimately is at the basis of our choices and beliefs. Neurons fire as the result of bio-chemical and electrical triggers. Free will would require that we are in control of these triggers and not at their mercy. By all indications we aren't. Intraphase posted a very interesting piece from Scientific American in post 230 of Ahk's thread, which starts out:
A good pointer for physical consciousness is a google search for "Default Mind Network"from Scientific American. It seems the mind never stops chatting itself up. Sometimes the conversation is kicked upstairs through the sub mind filters and arrives at a conscious thought or progression of inner dialogue. For the more eclectic levels of so called quantum consciousness as the wave particle duality battle I suggest this page. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html About a third of the way down the illustration drill right down to lattices of positive and negative charged water pockets engaged in quantum computing deep deep deep in the micro realm.
(Please advise if article is inappropriate so I can edit it :mad2:out)
The Brain’s Dark Energy
Imagine you are almost dozing in a lounge chair outside, with a
magazine on your lap. Suddenly, a fly lands on your arm. You grab the
magazine and swat at the insect. What was going on in your brain after
the fly landed? And what was going on just before? Many
neuroscientists have long assumed that much of the neural activity
inside your head when at rest matches your subdued, somnolent mood. In
this view, the activity in the resting brain represents nothing more
than random noise, akin to the snowy pattern on the television screen
when a station is not broadcasting. Then, when the fly alights on your
forearm, the brain focuses on the conscious task of squashing the bug.
But recent analysis produced by neuroimaging technologies has revealed
something quite remarkable: a great deal of meaningful activity is
occurring in the brain when a person is sitting back and doing nothing
at all.
The article is a fairly easy read but long. To paraphrase, it seems that the brain more or less has it's own agenda. It is busy 24/7 doing "something" and whatever that is, it temporarily diverts resources from it as needed to respond to our conscious requests, which constitute a small fraction of the overall activity.
While I would like to think that we have free will, this is more than just an intellectual curiosity. There is much discussion in some threads about a "control paradigm." If we aren't in the driver's seat at the bio-chemical, electrical level of the origin of thought, is that not the ultimate control paradigm?
2) What is consciousness? Closely related to the first question, perhaps this is just another way to ask the same question. To get the ball rolling I include here two posts from Ahk's thread
Ba-ba-Ra captures the essence of this in post 206:
It's still a bit of a leap for me, though, to believe that we somehow created this reality, either accidentally or on purpose.
Ty
Ty, I'd like to suggest a simple concept to begin this process, if you're interested. Take a lucid dream. You see people, you feel emotions, you preform tasks - and while you're in it - it all feels real, as if it's happening. For example if someone is chasing you, you feel the fear, you think you're running, you feel your heart beat. Where is all this happening?.... and who created it?
I think most of us would say that's just a state of consciousness. Of course, what we call awake, is another state of consciousness, but who's to say that we aren't creating this one as well? A scientist will tell you the chair you're sitting on is mostly space, with some molecules (atoms, electron, protons, etc) whirling around at phenomenal speeds. Yet to you the chair is solid and stationary. You can't put your finger through it. Science keeps breaking down matter, and the more they break it down, the less solid they find. We all accept this as true, yet we also believe it's all solid. So, would you say that somehow we've accepted two diametrically opposed beliefs systems about the world we live in?
Once you can accept that each state we live in is really just another state of consciousness -(deep sleep, dream state, lucid dream state, daydreaming, awake) then can you expand that to the possibility of other states of consciousness that we either haven't learned to access, or potentially we access and don't remember. Many people now have had out-of-body experiences. Perhaps that's one of them.
Okay, now go back to what we call awake state. Begin paying attention to each action you originate or respond to. Can you watch where it goes and see how life might have gone differently if you had reacted differently. I think we're all pretty much aware of how our actions create our reality with other humans. Now try it with something none human. Plants are often a good place to begin. Find one plant that you can truly love - and just love it. Sing and talk to it as if it were a baby, touch if affectionately, etc. Now see what happens. But you must do it from the heart & truly feel it.
Ty, I know this sounds simplistic and maybe eerie-fairy to some. But I encourage you to try it. Once you see results (and the first attempts may take some time- but as with learning to play an instrument as you practice your skill will grow), then keep expanding outward, love your house and property in the same way, then your street, then neighborhood, etc.
I replied to this as follows:
Hi Ba-ba-Ra,
I used to marvel at the similarity between the structure of the universe as we currently understand it and the structure of matter. Within a table leg, at the atomic and subatomic level lies another universe. Who's to say that our universe isn't a table leg in some higher dimension?
Of course, what we call awake, is another state of consciousness, but who's to say that we aren't creating this one as well? A scientist will tell you the chair you're sitting on is mostly space, with some molecules (atoms, electron, protons, etc) whirling around at phenomenal speeds. Yet to you the chair is solid and stationary. You can't put your finger through it. Science keeps breaking down matter, and the more they break it down, the less solid they find. We all accept this as true, yet we also believe it's all solid. So, would you say that somehow we've accepted two diametrically opposed beliefs systems about the world we live in?
No. I wouldn't say these are diametrically opposed. That solid matter is mostly empty space I just accept as the nature of matter. Kind of like accepting that humans are, if I remember right, 78% water. Everything is made up of something else and, like you said, each time we think we've drilled down to the basic building block we find another level. Last I heard we are now down to the muons, pions, gluons and such in the quantum realm. Have they detected anything smaller? I know they theorize now with String Theory that all matter is the result of vibrating strings, but there is a sharp divide among theoretical physicists on this theory.
There are several important differences I see betweeen dream-state and awake-state that lead me to believe that awake-state is more than just a state of conciousness. The main one is scope. In the dream-world our dreams (at least mine) always center around ourselves. It's like watching a movie where we are in every scene, nothing happens beyond the frame and only the people in that frame share the experience. I have tried to have "shared" dreams before with no success. To meet someone in the dream-state who I know in my awake-state and see if we have the same memory of the dream. So far have never been able to link up in the dream-world. Perhaps it's worth trying again. Interested?
At any rate, it seems that in the awake-state the world rolls on outside of the frame of it we occupy. That events outside of our frame are perceived identically by dozens, hundreds, thousands of people. If "we're" creating this, are we all creating the same shared remote events? Or is the reality I perceive in my awake-state just my reality and everyone in it who I consider to be "real" are just manifestations I interact with like in my dream-state?
If so then you don't actually exist and whatever response you give to this is actually me, whoever I really am, offering Ba-ba-Ra's perspective. And all the thousands of posts in this forum which I didn't even know existed a month ago, many sharply different opinions, are just me discussing and debating with myself?
I'm not denying that there are other states of conciousness. The problem I have believing that our awake-state is nothing else, beyond what I said above, is... where does it end? If what I experience in my day to day life isn't "reality" is the Earth? The solar system? The universe? Maybe that's the case. I don't know one way or the other. If it is, then it would be easier for me to believe that none of us really exist and our shared perceived reality is just the manifestation of someone else's dream. Wouldn't that be the ultimate control paradigm? That would rob us of any power at all to change things.
Of these three choices...
1) That "reality" exists outside of our conscious or subconscious creation of it
2) That "reality" is being manifested by someone, somewhere and we are all living in his dream world
3) That "reality" is being consciously manifested by each of us, knowingly or unknowingly, and only the appropriate "I" exists, everyone else is just a manifestation...
... it seems to me that 1 or 2 are the more likely. I'm sure there are more than these three and would like to explore them as well if someone wants to elaborate on this.
It's been demonstrated that this has a positive effect on plants. I don't know if it's been shown to be anything more than the benefits of increased CO2 though. But even if it has, it indicates a level of communication and connectedness that we don't currently understand and can't explain. It doesn't necessarily imply that "reality" is just a state of consciousness.
I have a friend with some psychic abilities. He grew up in an atypical environment and had to rely more on his primitive or innate instincts to survive. I think that resulted in him developing an ability we probably all have but fail to develop. But again, it doesn't necessarily imply some kind of shared consciousness.
Thanks Ba-ba-Ra for the encouragement. I have not yet looked at the videos posted a few posts back. Perhaps they will help me see things in a different light.
So these are the areas I'd like to explore in this thread. All views are welcome.
While I am opening this thread please don't consider it "mine." I will not likely have time to reply to all posts and claim no authority on the subjects in question. I broached the subject in Ahk's thread because it had some relevance there and I was seeking other opinions on this. I doubt there is a definitive answer to the two primary questions but there is no shortage of opinions here.
I invite all to keep things cordial and inquisitive and explore these two ideas...
1) Free will is an illusion
2) What is consciousness?
Some background:
1) Free will is an illusion. I don't believe this but can't penetrate an argument made by a friend of mine which boils down to this. Every choice we make, belief we hold, thought we have arises from neural activity. Neural activity is the process of certain neurons firing in a certain order. Which neurons fire and in which order determines, among many other things, a thought, which ultimately is at the basis of our choices and beliefs. Neurons fire as the result of bio-chemical and electrical triggers. Free will would require that we are in control of these triggers and not at their mercy. By all indications we aren't. Intraphase posted a very interesting piece from Scientific American in post 230 of Ahk's thread, which starts out:
A good pointer for physical consciousness is a google search for "Default Mind Network"from Scientific American. It seems the mind never stops chatting itself up. Sometimes the conversation is kicked upstairs through the sub mind filters and arrives at a conscious thought or progression of inner dialogue. For the more eclectic levels of so called quantum consciousness as the wave particle duality battle I suggest this page. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html About a third of the way down the illustration drill right down to lattices of positive and negative charged water pockets engaged in quantum computing deep deep deep in the micro realm.
(Please advise if article is inappropriate so I can edit it :mad2:out)
The Brain’s Dark Energy
Imagine you are almost dozing in a lounge chair outside, with a
magazine on your lap. Suddenly, a fly lands on your arm. You grab the
magazine and swat at the insect. What was going on in your brain after
the fly landed? And what was going on just before? Many
neuroscientists have long assumed that much of the neural activity
inside your head when at rest matches your subdued, somnolent mood. In
this view, the activity in the resting brain represents nothing more
than random noise, akin to the snowy pattern on the television screen
when a station is not broadcasting. Then, when the fly alights on your
forearm, the brain focuses on the conscious task of squashing the bug.
But recent analysis produced by neuroimaging technologies has revealed
something quite remarkable: a great deal of meaningful activity is
occurring in the brain when a person is sitting back and doing nothing
at all.
The article is a fairly easy read but long. To paraphrase, it seems that the brain more or less has it's own agenda. It is busy 24/7 doing "something" and whatever that is, it temporarily diverts resources from it as needed to respond to our conscious requests, which constitute a small fraction of the overall activity.
While I would like to think that we have free will, this is more than just an intellectual curiosity. There is much discussion in some threads about a "control paradigm." If we aren't in the driver's seat at the bio-chemical, electrical level of the origin of thought, is that not the ultimate control paradigm?
2) What is consciousness? Closely related to the first question, perhaps this is just another way to ask the same question. To get the ball rolling I include here two posts from Ahk's thread
Ba-ba-Ra captures the essence of this in post 206:
It's still a bit of a leap for me, though, to believe that we somehow created this reality, either accidentally or on purpose.
Ty
Ty, I'd like to suggest a simple concept to begin this process, if you're interested. Take a lucid dream. You see people, you feel emotions, you preform tasks - and while you're in it - it all feels real, as if it's happening. For example if someone is chasing you, you feel the fear, you think you're running, you feel your heart beat. Where is all this happening?.... and who created it?
I think most of us would say that's just a state of consciousness. Of course, what we call awake, is another state of consciousness, but who's to say that we aren't creating this one as well? A scientist will tell you the chair you're sitting on is mostly space, with some molecules (atoms, electron, protons, etc) whirling around at phenomenal speeds. Yet to you the chair is solid and stationary. You can't put your finger through it. Science keeps breaking down matter, and the more they break it down, the less solid they find. We all accept this as true, yet we also believe it's all solid. So, would you say that somehow we've accepted two diametrically opposed beliefs systems about the world we live in?
Once you can accept that each state we live in is really just another state of consciousness -(deep sleep, dream state, lucid dream state, daydreaming, awake) then can you expand that to the possibility of other states of consciousness that we either haven't learned to access, or potentially we access and don't remember. Many people now have had out-of-body experiences. Perhaps that's one of them.
Okay, now go back to what we call awake state. Begin paying attention to each action you originate or respond to. Can you watch where it goes and see how life might have gone differently if you had reacted differently. I think we're all pretty much aware of how our actions create our reality with other humans. Now try it with something none human. Plants are often a good place to begin. Find one plant that you can truly love - and just love it. Sing and talk to it as if it were a baby, touch if affectionately, etc. Now see what happens. But you must do it from the heart & truly feel it.
Ty, I know this sounds simplistic and maybe eerie-fairy to some. But I encourage you to try it. Once you see results (and the first attempts may take some time- but as with learning to play an instrument as you practice your skill will grow), then keep expanding outward, love your house and property in the same way, then your street, then neighborhood, etc.
I replied to this as follows:
Hi Ba-ba-Ra,
I used to marvel at the similarity between the structure of the universe as we currently understand it and the structure of matter. Within a table leg, at the atomic and subatomic level lies another universe. Who's to say that our universe isn't a table leg in some higher dimension?
Of course, what we call awake, is another state of consciousness, but who's to say that we aren't creating this one as well? A scientist will tell you the chair you're sitting on is mostly space, with some molecules (atoms, electron, protons, etc) whirling around at phenomenal speeds. Yet to you the chair is solid and stationary. You can't put your finger through it. Science keeps breaking down matter, and the more they break it down, the less solid they find. We all accept this as true, yet we also believe it's all solid. So, would you say that somehow we've accepted two diametrically opposed beliefs systems about the world we live in?
No. I wouldn't say these are diametrically opposed. That solid matter is mostly empty space I just accept as the nature of matter. Kind of like accepting that humans are, if I remember right, 78% water. Everything is made up of something else and, like you said, each time we think we've drilled down to the basic building block we find another level. Last I heard we are now down to the muons, pions, gluons and such in the quantum realm. Have they detected anything smaller? I know they theorize now with String Theory that all matter is the result of vibrating strings, but there is a sharp divide among theoretical physicists on this theory.
There are several important differences I see betweeen dream-state and awake-state that lead me to believe that awake-state is more than just a state of conciousness. The main one is scope. In the dream-world our dreams (at least mine) always center around ourselves. It's like watching a movie where we are in every scene, nothing happens beyond the frame and only the people in that frame share the experience. I have tried to have "shared" dreams before with no success. To meet someone in the dream-state who I know in my awake-state and see if we have the same memory of the dream. So far have never been able to link up in the dream-world. Perhaps it's worth trying again. Interested?
At any rate, it seems that in the awake-state the world rolls on outside of the frame of it we occupy. That events outside of our frame are perceived identically by dozens, hundreds, thousands of people. If "we're" creating this, are we all creating the same shared remote events? Or is the reality I perceive in my awake-state just my reality and everyone in it who I consider to be "real" are just manifestations I interact with like in my dream-state?
If so then you don't actually exist and whatever response you give to this is actually me, whoever I really am, offering Ba-ba-Ra's perspective. And all the thousands of posts in this forum which I didn't even know existed a month ago, many sharply different opinions, are just me discussing and debating with myself?
I'm not denying that there are other states of conciousness. The problem I have believing that our awake-state is nothing else, beyond what I said above, is... where does it end? If what I experience in my day to day life isn't "reality" is the Earth? The solar system? The universe? Maybe that's the case. I don't know one way or the other. If it is, then it would be easier for me to believe that none of us really exist and our shared perceived reality is just the manifestation of someone else's dream. Wouldn't that be the ultimate control paradigm? That would rob us of any power at all to change things.
Of these three choices...
1) That "reality" exists outside of our conscious or subconscious creation of it
2) That "reality" is being manifested by someone, somewhere and we are all living in his dream world
3) That "reality" is being consciously manifested by each of us, knowingly or unknowingly, and only the appropriate "I" exists, everyone else is just a manifestation...
... it seems to me that 1 or 2 are the more likely. I'm sure there are more than these three and would like to explore them as well if someone wants to elaborate on this.
It's been demonstrated that this has a positive effect on plants. I don't know if it's been shown to be anything more than the benefits of increased CO2 though. But even if it has, it indicates a level of communication and connectedness that we don't currently understand and can't explain. It doesn't necessarily imply that "reality" is just a state of consciousness.
I have a friend with some psychic abilities. He grew up in an atypical environment and had to rely more on his primitive or innate instincts to survive. I think that resulted in him developing an ability we probably all have but fail to develop. But again, it doesn't necessarily imply some kind of shared consciousness.
Thanks Ba-ba-Ra for the encouragement. I have not yet looked at the videos posted a few posts back. Perhaps they will help me see things in a different light.
So these are the areas I'd like to explore in this thread. All views are welcome.