Cost of living in the US

[bobme]

I keep hearing the economy is doing great.

I have been asking people how there money situation is going. All 20 I have asked, say there money is not going farther.

All say they can buy less, as prices keep rising.

So I wonder, why is a good rising economy, a good thing?

Answer this logically please. I do not understand, nor have I benifited from it. I am spending more for the same goods contantly.

My income does not increase in unison with costs increases.

What am I doing wrong?

[Franny]

When you asked what you are doing wrong it reminded me of a line from a Marx Bros movie. I'll paraphrase, "What are you going to believe, what I tell you or what you see with your own two eyes?"

Everything I read or hear points in the direction of an economy that is being slowly let down. There is much debate about the end result but most agree that all is not quite as we are being told.

You may want to look for Kathryn Austin Fitts and others on YT and here that discuss the economy. I'm not the one to attempt that :)

I have a part time job I have done for over 2 years and I have seen my income from it drop pretty steeply in the last 7-8 months as prices rise. Food prices alone have gone up about 15-20% and gas about 35% in the last 2-3 years as well.

So, I believe my own eyes on this question.

[bobme]

understand latte.

There is no one I have not listend to, that you can name.

There are none that answer my questions in deapth.

Kathryn is good, no doubt, but the core of the questin is never answered in a logical way.

It is always answerd in an anilitical way.

I respect your eyes as they are yours.

As are all here.

I just do not understand this {crap} economy great thing. Foregive me if you might.

[chancy]

Hello Everyone:

I really like this topic! I deal with lots of people in my job and not one person has said their economic situation is better than it was 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or 5 years ago or more.
Being from a family that taught fiscal prudence I was taught to have no debt in anything. ( Alot of people will disagree with that BUT this is my 2 bits worth! )
In my life I we have been told the economy is doing GREAT! The economy is this or that BUT where is this information coming from? The banks, brokers and governments.
In Canada our economy is doing terrible BUT banks, brokers and governments are saying it's doing GREAT!
However we are in the same boat as you. Our economy is running on 3 pistons and not 8. No one will say it's doing terrible because they are worried the economy will slide into the ocean and sink. Then what?

The bottom line I believe is try to become or stay debt free. This will sustain you and your family in good times and bad times. If you have a bad month it's only a bad month. If you were in debt and have a bad month the debt collectors will be on your steps before you can say @@@@

Good luck everyone
chancy

[Deux Corbeaux]

I keep hearing the economy is doing great.

I have been asking people how there money situation is going. All 20 I have asked, say there money is not going farther.

All say they can buy less, as prices keep rising.

So I wonder, why is a good rising economy, a good thing?

Answer this logically please. I do not understand, nor have I benifited from it. I am spending more for the same goods contantly.

My income does not increase in unison with costs increases.

What am I doing wrong?

Same here in Europe

[scotslad]

An interesting site - https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/united-states has some interesting numbers.., (how true/accurate Im not sure, what do others think?) Also suspect it may vary from state to state?

Food
Basic lunchtime menu (including a drink) in the business district $14
Combo meal in fast food restaurant (Big Mac Meal or similar) $8
500 gr (1 lb.) of boneless chicken breast $4.56
1 liter (1 qt.) of whole fat milk $0.90
12 eggs, large $3.19
1 kg (2 lb.) of tomatoes $4.00
500 gr (16 oz.) of local cheese $6
1 kg (2 lb.) of apples $3.36
1 kg (2 lb.) of potatoes $1.61
0.5 l (16 oz) domestic beer in the supermarket $3.21
1 bottle of red table wine, good quality $15
2 liters of Coca-Cola $1.93
Bread for 2 people for 1 day $2.13

Housing
Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft) furnished accommodation in EXPENSIVE area $2,032
Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft) furnished accommodation in NORMAL area $1,558
Utilities 1 month (heating, electricity, gas ...) for 2 people in 85m2 flat $177
Monthly rent for a 45 m2 (480 Sqft) furnished studio in EXPENSIVE area $1,567
Monthly rent for a 45 m2 (480 Sqft) furnished studio in NORMAL area $1,114
Utilities 1 month (heating, electricity, gas ...) for 1 person in 45 m2 (480 Sqft) studio $122
Internet 8 Mbps (1 month) $48
40” flat screen TV $336
Microwave 800/900 Watt (Bosch, Panasonic, LG, Sharp, or equivalent brands) $120
Laundry detergent (3 l. ~ 100 oz.) $11
Hourly rate for cleaning help $23

Clothes
1 pair of jeans (Levis 501 or similar) $47
1 summer dress in a High Street Store (Zara, H&M or similar retailers) $45
1 pair of sport shoes (Nike, Adidas, or equivalent brands) $85
1 pair of men’s leather business shoes $114

Transportation
Volkswagen Golf 1.4 TSI 150 CV (or equivalent), with no extras, new $22,211
1 liter (1/4 gallon) of gas $0.76
Monthly ticket public transport $85

Personal Care
Cold medicine for 6 days (Tylenol, Frenadol, Coldrex, or equivalent brands) $7
1 box of antibiotics (12 doses) $19
Short visit to private Doctor (15 minutes) $113
1 box of 32 tampons (Tampax, OB, ...) $7
Deodorant, roll-on (50ml ~ 1.5 oz.) $3.49
Hair shampoo 2-in-1 (400 ml ~ 12 oz.) $5.05
4 rolls of toilet paper $3.40
Tube of toothpaste $1.85
Standard men's haircut in expat area of the city $21

Entertainment
Basic dinner out for two in neighborhood pub $44
2 tickets to the movies $25
2 tickets to the theater (best available seats) $172
Dinner for two at an Italian restaurant in the expat area including appetisers, main course, wine and dessert $79
1 cocktail drink in downtown club $11
Cappuccino in expat area of the city $4.84
1 beer in neighbourhood pub (500ml or 1pt.) $5.82
iPad Wi-Fi 128GB $429
1 min. of prepaid mobile tariff (no discounts or plans) $0.32
1 month of gym membership in business district $53
1 package of Marlboro cigarettes $8

For what it's worth, I was charged £5 for a pint in a pub in aberdeen, £3 for a pint in a weatherspoon's in Edinburgh, and a "wagon wheel" biscuit has now shrunk the size of a back wheel of a penny farthing.

A good indicator of any economy is ask a cobbler how business is doing. In speaking to one a few months ago, he said that business was "up" considerably on last year. (so more people are getting their shoes repaired instead of wanting to or unable to buy new ones.)

Also food banks in the UK have had a phenomenal growth in the last couple of years. ;)

Any high street in the UK has either got lots of "TO LET" signs up and empty shops, or popup shops appearing daily then gone the next, and the increase of charity, cigarette VAPE and "sell yer gold" shops. Large rate bills and lack of foot traffic due to out of town shopping malls and the explosion of internet shopping.

I remember the day when you could take your girlfriend out to the cinema, have a coke n popcorn, and still have change from a £10. I went to VUe cinema recently and spent £31 for 2 of us and some sweets, and ironically you could just have walked directly straight into a seat anywhere in the cinema without having been challenged. :)

[bobme]

thanks for all your replies.

The economy thing seems to want me to work harder, to keep up with it.

no benifits to me, just a pat on the back. good worker. keep it up.

I am fed up with it. I cannot join the must do this, or that mentallity any longer. I am just going to do what is right, for my own being, with no harm to others.

tough at times. but I will respect all others journeys, and defend thier right to experience them.

Thanks for hearing my expressions. love you all.

[Pam]

understand latte.

There is no one I have not listend to, that you can name.

There are none that answer my questions in deapth.

Kathryn is good, no doubt, but the core of the questin is never answered in a logical way.

It is always answerd in an anilitical way.

I respect your eyes as they are yours.

As are all here.

I just do not understand this {crap} economy great thing. Foregive me if you might.


It seems to me that when the media and government talk about a great economy it is from the perspective of the government and corporate interests and those that can benefit from the stock market. The one thing that might benefit the average guy is job availability, otherwise the benefits go to the government and corporations as well as other business owners. What constitutes a great economy? Lots of spending, which increases profits for business and more tax revenue. Inflation is another thing, that does not benefit Joe average, but it brings greater profits to business and greater tax revenue. Housing is more expensive, also a blow to Joe average. The psychological impact is also detrimental to the average guy as he will tend to borrow money due to the promise of better times, once again a bonue to banks.

You are absolutely right. The great economy concept seems to be another level of programming that really benefits the same handful of a few. Funny, I never thought it out till you brought it up. I guess we couldn't expect a lot more from a financial system that is built on more and more consumption and spending to keep it's wheels in motion..that always rubbed me the wrong way, being called a consumer.

[TomKat]

I keep hearing the economy is doing great.

I have been asking people how there money situation is going. All 20 I have asked, say there money is not going farther.

All say they can buy less, as prices keep rising.

So I wonder, why is a good rising economy, a good thing?

Answer this logically please. I do not understand, nor have I benifited from it. I am spending more for the same goods contantly.

My income does not increase in unison with costs increases.

What am I doing wrong?

Prices keep going up but there is no inflation :-)

[Laurel]

My opinion is that the US cost of living is going to raise dramatically in the next 2-3 months. The tariff for Chinese goods is 10% effective tomorrow, October 15th, and 25% effective January 1st.

I work in the commercial lighting industry, and have been dealing with the effects of the tariffs for the past few weeks. It's been very stressful, and is only going to get worse. This doesn't just effect products made in China, but also the components to make those products. For example, most of the US manufacturers whom I represent are having price increases even though the products are made locally in the US. Many of the raw materials and components which go into these products are from China.

This is going to trickle down to effect everyone in the US. Property taxes will go up to cover the additional cost of school remodels and new buildings, street repair, etc. Home repair is going to skyrocket. The day to day things which we don't usually consider will increase (like the insulated coffee cup :coffee: I'm using while typing this post).

[TargeT]

where I live only those who don't want work aren't working... but we have a disproportionate amount of federal spending happening in a tiny area, so it's a very skewed number.

cost of living seems static though, i wouldn't say better or worse.. at least not beyond a 2-3% margin

[Baby Steps]

There is a pattern throughout the west, that our politicians struggle to deal with.

China is an export behemoth, our markets are flooded with a vast diversity of items that we struggle to produce at home for the same price.

The yuan vs western currencies has been fairly stable over time.

Chinese export prices have been fairly stable for the last 13 years.(despite rising manufacturing wages there).

What we are seeing is our retail giants moving in everywhere, and in the process decimating local smaller producers. Once the local guys are busted, these huge supermarkets are in a semi monopoly position locally.

They have been caught selling under cost to kill off other producers.

Once established , they can then safely raise prices as they see fit. When they do this, they suck more cash out of local economies, often to be invested away from the real world, in tax havens, or trust funds etc.

People employed by these giants are not well paid. Any local producers they do use, are generally screwed down on price, mercilessly. Again this can choke off local prosperity.

Politicians also play games. The retail inflation index is highly subjective. They arrive at an estimate for inflation, then subtract this from the more reliable money gdp figure, to arrive at the 'real' gdp growth figure. When the euro was adopted, many spoke of huge retail inflation.

The system is not above hiding this, as it can flatter the gdp growth figure.

its a spiral of erosion of spending power, shrinking local e onomic activity and monopolistic exploitation.

Suggestions:

1. Get growth going such that there is demand for staff, and they can command higher pay
2. Facilitate local ecosystems of small businesses. one way is to restrict big retailers operating in town centres, and promote an attractive environment there for local shoppers, who will support independents.
3. develop a culture of localism, is this item locally made? or is diesel being burned to bring it here?
4. market intervention to assist local producers to compete
5. if one does go to the big boys to shop, planners need to ensure that they are really competing.

[ichingcarpenter]

From Trump's own Department of Labor


The cost of living is rising at its fastest pace in a decade, according to statistics released Friday by the U.S. Department of Labor. And housing costs are the most likely cause.

In the last 12 months, housing costs based on average rent prices across the country rose 3.5 percent. The increase even surpasses the rise in medical care costs, which saw a 2.3 percent increase over the past year.

With wages stagnant, that means less money for other things.

Dean Baker, a senior economist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, told CBS News that rising rent costs are the source for the inflation, driven by “shortages of housing in desirable markets."

"Unfortunately, the downward trend in housing construction means that these shortages are unlikely to be addressed on the supply side in the foreseeable future," Baker said.

Based on data from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, Newsweek analyzed the average price increase renters in major cities across the country have experienced over the past decade.

One of the biggest housing cost increases has occurred in the Denver, Colorado, area. For a one-bedroom apartment, the average monthly cost rose from roughly $692 in 2008 to $1,226 in 2018, about a 77 percent increase.
https://www.newsweek.com/how-much-more-expensive-it-live-biggest-cities-ten-years-ago-1069693

Cost of living increases have outpaced wage growth since Trump took office


....just do a search

I'm sure the data from Trump's own administration is fake news

[TargeT]

I'm sure the data from Trump's own administration is fake news

almost 50% of my take home paycheck goes to my house payment (insurance included)

[bobme]

Good points made here.

Insurance, housing, automobile prices, are insanely high. Just to name a few.

Any ideas on what we can do about It?

Thanks again, many good responses here.

[Valerie Villars]

Well, the cost of a brand new truck in what used to be cheaper brands is now $40,000 and up. That's insane.

So, all of our cars are used. We intend to drive them into the ground and then buy more used cars.

The Chevy Silverado has 275,000 miles. The turbo diesel Volkswagon, which gets 40 miles to the gallon has 175,000 and the used Acura has 77,000. We have to have repairs more often, but we aren't signing away a years salary for a hunk of plastic and electronics.

Of course, with that kind of mileage you almost have to have three cars with two people in case something goes wrong and one has to be in the shop. But, at least we can afford them. And you aren't required to have expensive comprehensive insurance on them; just liability.

We are also on a 20 year lease for solar panels. Buying them new is not cost effective at our age, but we should realize real savings and not be so beholden to the electric company.

It's a start.

[Deux Corbeaux]

Also Europe's housing prices continue to soar. Yet our disposable incomes, the money we have in our wallets to actually spend, hasn’t increased anywhere near that level.

In countries like Portugal, Italy, the UK, Spain, Belgium, Greece and Finland wages are even shrinking.

And worst of all, we don’t have a Donald Trump to simply blame for everything that’s going wrong..... ;)

[shaberon]

An interesting site - https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/united-states has some interesting numbers.., (how true/accurate Im not sure, what do others think?) Also suspect it may vary from state to state?



Tangible lists of actual things are a lot better than "statements about the economy".

It is roughly accurate but can vary wildly. So yes, out to lunch could be something like $14 and then if you eat anything else it's not too hard to eat $25 of stuff every day. Skip eating out and it's still easy to eat $15 of groceries.

Food stamps nominally give you about $40 per week, so, if it's easy to eat that in about three days, then it may be looking a little skimpy.

We have moved from "things are more expensive than they used to be" to "this doesn't really work".

The working model of the economy is indeed "work harder for less".

We moved to the middle of nowhere to reduce housing by about $250 per month, but, I don't have a background in operating tractors or anything like that, and so of course there is not much else around. However it seemed like a better strategy to move to a place where part time or not much better than minimum wage is ok.

The many years I worked full time and supported a house, the answer to how much new stuff did I buy, is pretty much nothing. Almost everything went to cost of living and life was just a circle of maintaining that. Mostly a waste of time.

[happyuk]

Good points made here.

Insurance, housing, automobile prices, are insanely high. Just to name a few.

Any ideas on what we can do about It?

Thanks again, many good responses here.

I hate to be the guy that rains on everyone's parade here but I think the period we're in will be the good old days. Especially where the price of fuel is concerned.

Any crisis that is about to hit us will be because the emphasis now is on spending and on increasing taxation. When the false prosperity collapses, what will everyone do? Many live in blissful oblivion, unaware of any impending emergency. Comfortably numb so to speak.

What to be done about it? Here are some suggestions of my own.

Adopt plain living. Make drastic changes in your living habits immediately, so that you will not be surprised if conditions change in a drastic way. Forget the latest iCrap - supply yourself with things you really need.

Repair your own clothes and also appliances if possible, do all house maintenance yourself.

Grow and can your own food. The UK government Manual of Nutrition gives very good information on meeting dietary needs cost effectively:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-edition-of-manual-of-nutrition-published

Use the libraries and learn to do without.

Cancel your gym membership, Sky/Netflix subscriptions etc.

Choose accommodation that is adequate, but not more than you really need, if possible in an area where taxes and living expenses are reasonable. Pay cash for everything you buy. If you don't have the cash, don't buy. Never borrow - cut up your credit cards.

Most of all read the Avalon forums, they are quite literally a mine of information.

[DeDukshyn]

"Good for the economy" is the lie they tell to get what they want. Period.

When I first moved into Calgary as a freshly graduated from high school teen, I could work at minimum wage and get by without issue. The minimum wage was one of the lowest in the country but the cost of living was low enough that it was ok - you could make rent, pay your bills and eat, etc.

This was early 90's.

Then came the tar sands oil boom - the price of oil was finally high enough to justify the cost of extracting it from bitumen. Opening up the tar sands was "Good for thee economy" and both our provincial and federal governments at the time, dropped everything to chase the oil dollar and invested heavily into turning Canada into a major supplier of oil - as the US and other parts of the world sought to rely less on Saudi oil.

Apparently, the economy started going really well, as we were told, "The province is booming!" we were told, headlines everywhere and the politicians and big oil corporations kept telling us how great the Alberta and Canadian economy was doing, due to this new oil boom.

As a person who didn't directly work in the oil industry, the changes I saw happening around me was only that prices on everything were going up, up, up. The price of food literally doubled, the price of gas literally doubled, the cost of utilities doubled, and the cost of housing doubled or tripled. Literally - I am not exaggerating.

The only people not affected by these astronomical increases were the people employed directly by the oil industry - as they had wages that matched the cost of living increases, and were able to buy houses at ridiculously inflated prices, could afford fancy gas guzzling vehicles, etc. The cost of living went up to meet this new class of Albertan and left everyone else fighting for scraps.

The minimum wage never increased during this entire time and was well below the poverty level, the cost of living skyrocketed, created a greater divide in classes between those who worked for big oil and those who did not.

Interestingly, the province of Alberta, during this time, had invested all it's "rainy day fund" (can't recall the official name), which was a significant amount of money, in big oil. A mere couple years later and the fake oil bubble burst, left the province on the verge of bankruptcy.

Did the cost of living go back down? No. Did the price of gas go back down? no. Did the housing cost go down? No. So then we were left with ****ty wages, and astronomically high cost of living compared to where we were before the boom.

"Good for the economy" they told us. And they are now telling us we need to again start investing more in oil so we can get our "economy" back. Complete Bull****. It's a mind control strategy, so you support those things that make the rich people richer.

And at the same time, the "good for the economy" that makes the rich people richer, also makes the poor people poorer. It's a phrase wielded by giant corporations, politicians, and the super rich - obviously because it is them that benefit. Not the country, and not the masses. Just another strategy to continue to suck the wealth out of the middle class.

Despite the promises of increased overall wealth from revolutions of the computer, the internet, better education, more people who are highly educated, the average wage in Canada is worth less than it was in the mid 70's after all adjustments. But all those things were "good for the economy"

In the lead up to our last federal election, the radio host asked the political analyst how Trudeau's propositions would impact the economy. The analyst answered candidly that politicians mostly have their hands tied when it comes to the economy - even though they pitch their positions always as being "better for the economy" than their counterparts. All they can really do is decide how much to spend or how much to save themselves ("left" vs "right" strategy - to distract you from the actual process of what is really happening) -- other than that, it is the Bank of Canada (or Big Bank entities in general) that actually directs the economy, hence the actual economy never gets better.

All that said, I have been left with a good desire to punch in the nose the next person who tries to tell me something needs to happen because it will be "good for the economy". If they're not a banker, politician, or work high up in big oil or some other "has way too much money" corporation, then they are merely parroting the BS that someone told them without actually thinking or knowing whether it will be good for the economy or not. Stop being brainwashed. When "The economy is doing great" - the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer - that's all that is happening.

AtgfzzwoyK4

[AutumnW]

I live in an insanely expensive province, in an expensive country. Thanks to you, Bobme, for starting this thread. What you are describing is constantly on my mind. It never leaves. I am in my early sixties now and went through crushing poverty during a deep recession when I left home at 18 years of age.

I was also dealing with the first stage of disease that nobody, including me, understood at the time. For that reason, I am always nervous about money and not having enough. As it turns out, I will likely be okay, financially, but I worry to the point of obsession for my family and friends. (And of course have real concerns about people in aggregate.)

The constant barrage of managed news, complete with doctored statistics telling us how,"great" the economy is, closely resembles Tass and Pravda's coverage of Russia. Even when things were dire, coverage, pre-Soviet political and economic collapse, described it as all sunshine.

So to answer your question, I think it it is pure propaganda and everyone has to start asking their neighbours and casual acquaintances, without being too invasive, if they are actually doing any better.

Most people are working in the service industry and they are not doing well. The incomes of hedge fund managers and others who are wealthy off the backs of minimum wage employees working within their oligopolies, create a statistical impression of well being. But that is only if the stats are massaged a certain way.

Best of luck to all who grind away at ****ty jobs at lousy pay who have to put up with the anarchy prevention programs that have become the daily news.

[scotslad]

Taking it all one step further, drilling down the comparisons of Economy...

Cost of living in Turkey compared to United States

Food - 65%
Housing - 76%
Clothes - 43%
Transportation - 44%
Personal Care - 67%
Entertainment - 60%
TOTAL - 62% cheaper in Turkey than USA
These prices were last updated less than a minute ago. Exchange rate: 0.17028 USD / TRY

Cost of living in United Kingdom compared to United States
Food - 14%
Housing - 1%
Clothes + 7%
Transportation + 41%
Personal Care - 26%
Entertainment - 4%
TOTAL + 5% MORE EXPENSIVE
These prices were last updated 36 minutes ago. Exchange rate: 1.315 USD / GBP

Cost of living in Ecuador compared to United States
Food - 40%
Housing - 60%
Clothes + 33%
Transportation - 46%
Personal Care - 36%
Entertainment - 2%
TOTAL - 39% cheaper in Ecuador
These prices were last updated 38 minutes ago.
This comparison is based on abundant and consistent data. It is based on 93,747 prices entered by 14,122 different people.

Cost of living in Turkey compared to Ecuador
Food - 42%
Housing - 40%
Clothes - 57%
Transportation + 5%
Personal Care - 49%
Entertainment - 59%
TOTAL - 38% cheaper in Turkey than Equador
These prices were last updated 3 minutes ago. Exchange rate: 0.17028 USD / TRY
This comparison is based on abundant and consistent data. It is based on 12,488 prices entered by 1,472 different people.

Lets all move to turkey ;)

Cheap as chips, cheaper than ebay & all genuine fakes ;)

(Now I sound like a local market trader) ;)

[bobme]

Nailed it DeDukshyn.

Spoken better than I can. :highfive:

[Tam]

Well, here's how I look at it.

Now, first things first, the US is a massive, continental country. Things vary wildly from state to state, city to city, rural to urban, in all ways, including, of course, cost of living. So there is no general cost of living, or generalized guideline. Each state may as well be its own country, and each county also varies, and also each city, etc.

But even with all of that taken into account, it is very expensive to live in America.

For starters, let's look at none other than our abysmal scam of a healthcare system. You pay out the ass for insurance (my family pays about $600 monthly for a mid-tier plan, and this does not factor in the deductible), yet we still regularly pay 30-80 dollars for each doctor visit, about 50 bucks of each time we need medicine (but it can and will get in the triple digits), and when we see a specialist, well, that costs us a whole hell of a lot more. For example, I need to get an MRI of my brain (don't worry, it's nothing severe--probably), and that is going to cost them about 800 dollars out of pocket. Sans insurance? About 3 grand. And the only reason they can afford that is because my father brings home a good living.

My boyfriend, on the other hand, is paid well for someone who has no degree (I'll get to that later), but he has repeatedly put important health stuff on hold because of the astronomical cost of healthcare. His workplace offers an insurance package, so his monthly payment is minimal (no way in hell could he afford what my parents pay, unless he wants to live off of top ramen), but the caveat is that he pays a stupid amount of money extra each time he needs a thing done. He has eczema, which means he needs expensive creams to use once in a while when it gets really bad, and the tube, which is the size of a travel tube of toothpaste, costs about 100 bucks. He's meant to smear that all over his body, so his covets it like it's gold and uses it only in emergencies, squeezing out every last drop.

Funny thing is, he needed a refill a few months back, went to get it, and it somehow only cost $15. His insurance never changed, nor did his plan, nor did the product. I remember pulling into the pharmacy, handing him a wad of cash to help him with the payment because money was tight on his end, and being told at the counter that the total was about 18 with the tax. We have no idea why it dropped so much; change in owners, or perhaps some wonderful administrative error? We didn't care; we just paid for it and left as fast as possible.

But even on happy days like that one, the fact that we were practically jumping for joy because his stupid cream rivaled the cost of gold per ounce is outrageous. Don't even get me started on the allergy tests he needed (hint: it would have cost upwards of 1200 bucks out of pocket to get jabbed by needles 50 times to see how red he gets. We didn't do the test).

My grandmother in France, on the other hand, doesn't pay a cent for anything she does medically, and let me tell you, she is not in good health. She sees a doctor once a week, and several specialists a month.

If she were to do that here, it would cost her tens of thousands of dollars monthly. And if you don't pay those bills, well, they ding your credit (so kiss any loan you might need goodbye, which means no car or house for you), then send collections after you to harass you day in and day out with letters and phone calls.

Screw the lot of them.

And should you want a higher education, because you don't want to struggle financially for the rest of your life, well, that will cost you anywhere from 18,000 to 80,000 a year for the tuition alone. Textbooks? Throw in about 600-1000 bucks a year, easy (a lot more in some majors). Parking pass? 400 dollars a semester ain't unheard of. Need to stay in a dormitory, which is mandatory for freshmen? Tack on an extra 5,000 dollars a year for the most basic package (in other words, communal bathrooms), and that does not include the meal plan.

So the majority of us have no choice but to take on loans, which come with fat interest rates. And you can't declare bankrupcty on them too. Only one of their kind. Oh, and if you're married, your spouse is legally tied to those as well. So try not to die or anything.

So you see, while it may appear that we have much larger homes for less in rural areas (cities are a whole other ball game), or super cheap gas, we more than make up for it in other areas.


Oh, and we still pay taxes. A lot of taxes. Great use of the money, US government.

[Flash]

This is exactly why i do not know many Canadians who would want to live in the US, except for more clement weather down south. I do not know many Europeans who would want to move in the US either, once they know the health care conditions and the schooling fees.

And American still believe that most of the planet want to live in USA - well not so, if one is from a developed country.

As for people from the poor countries, they want to live anywhere in the world were they have a chance at survival, who can blame them.

[Valerie Villars]

And should you want a higher education, because you don't want to struggle financially for the rest of your life, well, that will cost you anywhere from 18,000 to 80,000 a year for the tuition alone. Textbooks? Throw in about 600-1000 bucks a year, easy (a lot more in some majors). Parking pass? 400 dollars a semester ain't unheard of. Need to stay in a dormitory, which is mandatory for freshmen? Tack on an extra 5,000 dollars a year for the most basic package (in other words, communal bathrooms), and that does not include the meal plan.

So the majority of us have no choice but to take on loans, which come with fat interest rates. And you can't declare bankrupcty on them too. Only one of their kind. Oh, and if you're married, your spouse is legally tied to those as well. So try not to die or anything.

Indigris, you are right. This is a very sore issue for me.

I borrowed about 20,000 in the early 90's to go back to school to study nursing so I would have a good living with which to support myself and my son. I had to withdraw from school due to a death.

I paid back approximately 25,000 and now am unable to work. Guess how much I still owe? About 36,000. No way to get out of it and no way to pay.

I just found out this past week that they won't even loan students enough on their own for tuition, so now they have Parent Student Loans, which means they have everyone in the family on the hook for higher education. Brilliant, isn't it? It wasn't enough to just have the poor student saddled with more debt than they can ever repay, but now the parents in their "golden years" have to struggle and remain shackled to the system. Just so the kids can get a 40,000 a year job.

Oh, and my sister and her husband were paying 1200.00 a month for health insurance for themselves and their three children, until the "child" is 26 years old. Again, keeping the parents so shackled with debt, they can't get out from under.

[scotslad]

Living in the north east of scotland, I confess....

....I havent seen a police car all year.
....I havent locked my front door in 15 years.
....I leave the keys in my car every night.
....There are no rockets, explosions or bombs going off in my neighbourhood.
....Crime is very low.
....Insurance payments are lowish.
....Healthcare is free.
....we voted for brexit, but the govt is trying its damnest to brainwash the publish into remaining
....The govt takes nearly £8 out of every £10 spent on fuel for the car
....The Govt takes 70%+ out of every bottle of whisky
....We apparently get hit for 53 taxes in the course of every month from income tax, to Value added tax, to excise duty, road tax etc etc etc.
....We dont own our cars - we are the registered keepers
....We get tricked to adopt LEGAL FICTION names by government & institution legal threads or "Invitations to do business" at their place of business ;)
....We pay COUNCIL TAX without having signed any legal agreements
....We watch as our Local COUNCIL/authority reduces services, hikes up local taxes and pays bigger pensions, salaries & bonuses to its senior staff
....We get tricked to repay loans on financial instruments that we create with our signatures
....We are hoodwinked & manipulated by our national press, radio and TV
....Our kids are getting dumbed down by our educationalists, and our national companies bought over by international conglomorates
....Our sacred sites are being turned into tourist attractions with burger vans and Latte coffees for £3+ a cup
....Communities providing housing to "immigrants" from other side of the world
....Why can a german retailer sell a loaf here for 27p and TESCO one of our biggest retailers still carge £1+
....Our kids are not awarded a 1st, 2nd or 3rd place in our school sports day - noone is allowed to lose
....transagenda being promoted everywhere- hell be what you want to be

Economy? Economy?

....Are we really free, living the life and lifestyle we really wanted and chose to reincarnate and experience in this 3 dimensional plane on this apparent time line?

Or is an agenda being opposed in each sovereign state/country in a systematic pan global agenda designed to keep us non-royal blood lines as low in the pecking order and constantly in fear - who knows? what do you think?

[Flash]

And should you want a higher education, because you don't want to struggle financially for the rest of your life, well, that will cost you anywhere from 18,000 to 80,000 a year for the tuition alone. Textbooks? Throw in about 600-1000 bucks a year, easy (a lot more in some majors). Parking pass? 400 dollars a semester ain't unheard of. Need to stay in a dormitory, which is mandatory for freshmen? Tack on an extra 5,000 dollars a year for the most basic package (in other words, communal bathrooms), and that does not include the meal plan.

So the majority of us have no choice but to take on loans, which come with fat interest rates. And you can't declare bankrupcty on them too. Only one of their kind. Oh, and if you're married, your spouse is legally tied to those as well. So try not to die or anything.

Indigris, you are right. This is a very sore issue for me.

I borrowed about 20,000 in the early 90's to go back to school to study nursing so I would have a good living with which to support myself and my son. I had to withdraw from school due to a death.

I paid back approximately 25,000 and now am unable to work. Guess how much I still owe? About 36,000. No way to get out of it and no way to pay.

I just found out this past week that they won't even loan students enough on their own for tuition, so now they have Parent Student Loans, which means they have everyone in the family on the hook for higher education. Brilliant, isn't it? It wasn't enough to just have the poor student saddled with more debt than they can ever repay, but now the parents in their "golden years" have to struggle and remain shackled to the system. Just so the kids can get a 40,000 a year job.

Oh, and my sister and her husband were paying 1200.00 a month for health insurance for themselves and their three children, until the "child" is 26 years old. Again, keeping the parents so shackled with debt, they can't get out from under.

When I think that my daughter pays 300$ a semester for a College degree and it would be about 1,500$ for a Bachelor degree in a Canadian University. Which would make her whole post secondary education cost at 1,800 for a college degree + 9,000$ for a university degree = 10,800$ for total tuition and a bachelor degree + books 1000/ year max, because students recycle the books, about 5,000 altogether, plus a computer that they would have anyhow - but some are also available for students on college premises, board and room not included, nor transportation.

I know a lot a students who work 15 - 20 hours a week, go full time to school, have a heavy schedule for a while but end up with about 5,000$ student debts if any. This is how I paid for my bachelor degree. I had no debts when I graduated.

And, we won't be soaked in back payments of anything because of sickness, because of family health problems. What still drags family back though is treatments for addictions, this is not always covered.

[TargeT]

When living in the US, unless you have won the genetic lottery and were born with an advantage (family money etc..); when you follow the average path (the socially programmed path that is), you'll barely scrape by or fail.

Living in the US is all about thinking outside the box & not being afraid to act / commit and do something novel.

IDK what the hell most people in this thread are talking about, I've been a lot of places and never would want to live anywhere else (EU/CAN included).

I don't have a degree, I quit going to college when I found out it was a waste of time... I've started several businesses (not all successfully, learned a lot of lessons). Not sure where else I would have had the opportunity to do all I have... most people just don't take advantage of whats out there.

[AriG]

I have had experience in decision making management roles wherein I was required to ensure that we were not paying g talent more than the next employer, regardless of the individual’s contribution to the bottom line and the success of the company. Wage surveys, forced rankings ( where you literally rank one peer against the other) and other dehumanizing practices were the norm. ANd here’s why- when you have a large percentage of employers and companies being publicly traded on the various exchanges, they have a fiduciary/legal obligation to return dividends and profit to the investors- be they private or institutional. And when the exchanges continually expect growth in declining economies, those quarterly and year over year improvements are garnered through the blood sweat and tears of the people actually working versus speculating- hence, no wage increases and suppressed wages that are not in line with cost of living let alone merit based compensation. That’s the surface answer. the behind the scenes answer is that an archonic system seeks to equalize all participants- and soon, with AI, even hedge fund pigs and speculators will be fodder for the machine and only the very top will live in any semblance of comfort. of course, you could do as I have been. Eliminate debt, buy some land and change your expectations. I haven’t had a vacation since 2012. I don’t shop the “high street”. I shop the thrift and grow my own food. hubby has a good job and that is being squirreled. My gigs are for animal feed and we rarely eat out. it’s critical mass time if you don’t want to be marginalized into a government housing block. As my grandmother used to quote Aesop’s Fables “ be an ant”. here’s some info on wage suppression https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opinion/corporate-america-suppressing-wages.html

[bobme]

..Very true all posts. And sad.

We have a garden also to grow our own food. But lately we are having much over spray from the field behind us,from roundup. It really messes everything up.

Also the neibors tried to get a honey bee hive going. The hive died out. Of couse, GMO crops planted. Very frustrating.

Thanks all.

[AriG]

..Very true all posts. And sad.

We have a garden also to grow our own food. But lately we are having much over spray from the field behind us,from roundup. It really messes everything up.

Also the neibors tried to get a honey bee hive going. The hive died out. Of couse, GMO crops planted. Very frustrating.

Thanks all.


My advice would be to plant at least three rows of cilantro around your plot but do not harvest to eat. This will help absorb overspray.

We also have an apiary. Italian honey bees. Not sure where you are but it has been an incredibly wet year. I would advise that you relocate your hives against the neighbors prevailing poison spray and also feed pollen patties and am2:1 sugar mix to strengthen. Also check for varroa notes by sprinkling powdered sugar on about 200 scooped up bees into a jar. Colony collapse disorder is multi layered with drivers such as round up, varroa, small hive beetle and American foul rood as potential contributors.

[Flash]

When living in the US, unless you have won the genetic lottery and were born with an advantage (family money etc..); when you follow the average path (the socially programmed path that is), you'll barely scrape by or fail.

Living in the US is all about thinking outside the box & not being afraid to act / commit and do something novel.

IDK what the hell most people in this thread are talking about, I've been a lot of places and never would want to live anywhere else (EU/CAN included).

I don't have a degree, I quit going to college when I found out it was a waste of time... I've started several businesses (not all successfully, learned a lot of lessons). Not sure where else I would have had the opportunity to do all I have... most people just don't take advantage of whats out there.

In Canada you could of....:bigsmile: I did.

300$ to start a business, all you need is ideas. Yes, out of the box.

Plus: free medicare, lots of services for an handicap child if you have any, you will bleed yourself for alternative treatments, but not for traditional one which are often useful too. And basically free schooling.

But, if you do not want to go to school, you can still start a business and be successful.

Much more complicated in France, this I know.

But hey, I will not have any thanks on this forum if I say that somewhere else can be better than the US for all of us, not just a small bunch.

You are brainwashed guys. And do not have such extended experience, in my opinion - and yes, I have seen enough of the US to know. This is not ignorance talking here.

And yes, I like Americans, but I prefer living here in Canada anytime.

In the US, with all I gave to my daughter, and a lot was over and above anything I received free or at low cost, I would still be in the street with my shopping cart going around - because what I got was really essential for her and it would have been way over my possibiilites without those free bees. All this while managing my training business to make enough money to afford what I did not get for free.

And it ends up being much less expensive for anyone, and for everyone, than to pay for insurances of all kinds.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Taking it all one step further, drilling down the comparisons of Economy...

Cost of living in Turkey compared to United States

This data doesn't really say much because it combines averages across entire nations, where cost of living varies greatly from one place to another.

For example, there is a larger difference between urban areas and rural areas, than between many countries that have been averaged together as a whole.

https://www.missourieconomy.org/images/indicators/cost_of_living/col1q17_map1.jpg

See this map. The cost of living is much greater in the liberal states with big urban sprawls, essentially New England and the Left Coast.

Here are the wages required to rent 2-bedroom housing per state averages:

https://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/citylab/2015/05/Screen_Shot_2015_05_27_at_10.34.45_AM/lead_large.png


You can see there, you need to make $13/hr on average to afford to live in 2-bedroom housing in West Virginia, or $16.62 in Texas, but you need to make $26.65/hr to live in equivalent housing in California, and an average of $25.67 in New York. Housing is nearly twice as expensive in California as it is in Texas..

These liberal cities/states are, by the way, also generally the dirtiest places in the US, with the highest rates of crime and homelessness. Los Angeles is developing quite a reputation for feces on its public sidewalks at present, even with mobile apps to report sidewalk feces so the city can try to clean it up as it happens.


The United Kingdom shows a similar pattern:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68705000/gif/_68705209_map.gif

You will learn more about cost of living comparing smaller locations in this way, than you will by averaging entire countries and comparing them that way.

In the United States, it is the rural and more conservative areas that are seeing the most economic stimulus. West Virginia and Pennsylvania are seeing coal mining booms currently, for obvious reasons (gutting of EPA). Manufacturing plants are being built in various other states across the South and Rust Belt, but these will take time to finish and begin employing people. In the mean time, steel plants have also been reopening and hiring additional people.

If you live in a city or state with high taxes and lots of regulation, you are unlikely to see much change, for multiple reasons, including how large and diverse these urban economies are already. To affect any noticeable change on a scale that large takes time and massive amounts of actual work. Standards of living don't just spring magically from the air. God forbid, they require human beings to perform labor, including manual labor, and having to clean up sidewalk poop or deal with enormous rates of crime is hardly the kind of labor you want money pouring into.

[TargeT]

You will learn more about cost of living comparing smaller locations in this way, than you will by averaging entire countries and comparing them that way.

In the United States, it is the rural and more conservative areas that are seeing the most economic stimulus.

I always lived in small towns or "the country" so maybe my view is more in line with that aspect (THE VAST MAJORITY) of the US.

I've been to "the cities" but never saw them as "a home", never wanted to stay longer than a visit; they are dehumanizing & expensive (won't even get into the crazy political ideas and restrictive laws)? No thanks!

Saying anything about the US "as a whole" is just a mistake... it's drastically different due to an enormous geographical foot print; hell we barely even speak the same language even when it's "still English".


Besides, look at the REST (50% at least) of the world (that survives on $5.50 a day, roughly (https://phys.org/news/2018-10-world-day-bank.html)).... interestingly enough both people are roughly the same "happy"; but I like my toys and safety and convenience.. I wouldn't have it any other way.


But then I'm a fan of appreciating what I have, not complaining about what "could be" .

[bobme]

Taking it all one step further, drilling down the comparisons of Economy...

Cost of living in Turkey compared to United States

This data doesn't really say much because it combines averages across entire nations, where cost of living varies greatly from one place to another.

For example, there is a larger difference between urban areas and rural areas, than between many countries that have been averaged together as a whole.

https://www.missourieconomy.org/images/indicators/cost_of_living/col1q17_map1.jpg

See this map. The cost of living is much greater in the liberal states with big urban sprawls, essentially New England and the Left Coast.

Here are the wages required to rent 2-bedroom housing per state averages:

https://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/citylab/2015/05/Screen_Shot_2015_05_27_at_10.34.45_AM/lead_large.png


You can see there, you need to make $13/hr on average to afford to live in 2-bedroom housing in West Virginia, or $16.62 in Texas, but you need to make $26.65/hr to live in equivalent housing in California, and an average of $25.67 in New York. Housing is nearly twice as expensive in California as it is in Texas..

These liberal cities/states are, by the way, also generally the dirtiest places in the US, with the highest rates of crime and homelessness. Los Angeles is developing quite a reputation for feces on its public sidewalks at present, even with mobile apps to report sidewalk feces so the city can try to clean it up as it happens.


The United Kingdom shows a similar pattern:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68705000/gif/_68705209_map.gif

You will learn more about cost of living comparing smaller locations in this way, than you will by averaging entire countries and comparing them that way.

In the United States, it is the rural and more conservative areas that are seeing the most economic stimulus. West Virginia and Pennsylvania are seeing coal mining booms currently, for obvious reasons (gutting of EPA). Manufacturing plants are being built in various other states across the South and Rust Belt, but these will take time to finish and begin employing people. In the mean time, steel plants have also been reopening and hiring additional people.

If you live in a city or state with high taxes and lots of regulation, you are unlikely to see much change, for multiple reasons, including how large and diverse these urban economies are already. To affect any noticeable change on a scale that large takes time and massive amounts of actual work. Standards of living don't just spring magically from the air. God forbid, they require human beings to perform labor, including manual labor, and having to clean up sidewalk poop or deal with enormous rates of crime is hardly the kind of labor you want money pouring into.

But in reality, what else can you afford? What is the minimum wage in these areas?

Say you have one child, and a spouse for this 2 bedroom apartment. How much is your grocery bill, gas for work travel & grocery travel, heat, electric, trash fees, doctor bills, Gas for heat? What is left over for clothing, Auto repair, on and on.

Look up what prices for every thing was, when minimum wade was 1.50 an hour please.

You could buy a house, auto, and all the rest, with four kids & non working spouse.

That is what I am saying here.

Also to get into most buisnesses, you need liscence, and insurance. Good luck on minimum wage on those factors, or two bedroom apartment requirement wages.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

But in reality, what else can you afford? What is the minimum wage in these areas?

Say you have one child, and a spouse for this 2 bedroom apartment. How much is your grocery bill, gas for work travel & grocery travel, heat, electric, trash fees, doctor bills, Gas for heat? What is left over for clothing, Auto repair, on and on.


Everything tends to be cheaper in less densely populated areas. Gasoline is much cheaper, food is cheaper, cigarettes are cheaper... There are surely some exceptions to this, but the cost of living in rural areas is understood to generally be much lower than the cost of living in big cities.

And why would it be otherwise? It makes complete sense, if you understand economics, the law of supply and demand, and how price points are determined. When there is less demand, and people aren't willing to dish out the cash for something (for whatever reasons), you have to lower prices to make the same amount of profit. And that's what happens in rural areas.


Look up what prices for every thing was, when minimum wade was 1.50 an hour please.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Inflation is what has caused the price of everything to rise, and inflation doesn't impact everything equally. The housing market has been impacted worse by inflation than the cost of eggs, for example, and electronics prices have plummeted since the 1980s, bucking the trend of everything else.


Also to get into most buisnesses, you need liscence, and insurance. Good luck on minimum wage on those factors, or two bedroom apartment requirement wages.

In liberal areas, the requirements for running a business tend to be much stricter than that. Business licenses in my state are not that expensive and I believe they recur annually, so that's not such a big problem. But being required to pay for full coverage healthcare for all of your employees would completely wipe out many businesses, making them unprofitable and forcing them into bankruptcy.

That's why when Obamacare mandated employers pay for the healthcare of all full-time employees, lots of Americans suddenly found their hours cut back to part-time. Instead of getting "free healthcare," instead all they got was a smaller paycheck and less hours each week. And you can't always blame the employers for that. A lot of companies go bankrupt and entirely out of business because of these kinds of policies.

People on the left always think about the laborers, but they don't spend as much time considering the situation of the capitalist pig scum employers who are actually issuing the paychecks. It's not easy to run a business in a highly taxed and regulated area, and not only be responsible for your own livelihood, but providing paychecks and healthcare and everything else for all of your employers too. Even many of the largest corporations, that are household names, barely make a profit after all of their expenses are paid. Sears just went bankrupt, for example.

[AutumnW]

When living in the US, unless you have won the genetic lottery and were born with an advantage (family money etc..); when you follow the average path (the socially programmed path that is), you'll barely scrape by or fail.

Living in the US is all about thinking outside the box & not being afraid to act / commit and do something novel.

IDK what the hell most people in this thread are talking about, I've been a lot of places and never would want to live anywhere else (EU/CAN included).

I don't have a degree, I quit going to college when I found out it was a waste of time... I've started several businesses (not all successfully, learned a lot of lessons). Not sure where else I would have had the opportunity to do all I have... most people just don't take advantage of whats out there.

Let's all be you then!

[shaberon]

....The Govt takes 70%+ out of every bottle of whisky




Isn't this the major backbone of the modern system of offshore tax havens? More or less the beginning of the road to all we see, particularly as trans-Atlantic or global affairs.

[Innocent Warrior]

I’ve added what it costs here in Brisbane, QLD in red.


An interesting site - https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/united-states has some interesting numbers.., (how true/accurate Im not sure, what do others think?) Also suspect it may vary from state to state?

Food
Basic lunchtime menu (including a drink) in the business district $14 $17
Combo meal in fast food restaurant (Big Mac Meal or similar) $8 $11
500 gr (1 lb.) of boneless chicken breast $4.56 $5.90
1 liter (1 qt.) of whole fat milk $0.90 $1.27
12 eggs, large $3.19 $5.20
1 kg (2 lb.) of tomatoes $4.00 $5.47
500 gr (16 oz.) of local cheese $6 $9
1 kg (2 lb.) of apples $3.36 $4:34
1 kg (2 lb.) of potatoes $1.61 $3.45
0.5 l (16 oz) domestic beer in the supermarket $3.21 $4.89
1 bottle of red table wine, good quality $15 $21
2 liters of Coca-Cola $1.93 $3.44
Bread for 2 people for 1 day $2.13 2.08

Housing
Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft) furnished accommodation in EXPENSIVE area $2,032 $2,274
Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft) furnished accommodation in NORMAL area $1,558 $1,859
Utilities 1 month (heating, electricity, gas ...) for 2 people in 85m2 flat $177 $209
Monthly rent for a 45 m2 (480 Sqft) furnished studio in EXPENSIVE area $1,567 $1,927
Monthly rent for a 45 m2 (480 Sqft) furnished studio in NORMAL area $1,114 $1,428
Utilities 1 month (heating, electricity, gas ...) for 1 person in 45 m2 (480 Sqft) studio $122 $132
Internet 8 Mbps (1 month) $48 $59
40” flat screen TV $336 $641
Microwave 800/900 Watt (Bosch, Panasonic, LG, Sharp, or equivalent brands) $120 $177
Laundry detergent (3 l. ~ 100 oz.) $11 $15
Hourly rate for cleaning help $23 $29

Clothes
1 pair of jeans (Levis 501 or similar) $47 $100
1 summer dress in a High Street Store (Zara, H&M or similar retailers) $45 $70
1 pair of sport shoes (Nike, Adidas, or equivalent brands) $85 $151
1 pair of men’s leather business shoes $114 $146

Transportation
Volkswagen Golf 1.4 TSI 150 CV (or equivalent), with no extras, new $22,211 $24,799
1 liter (1/4 gallon) of gas $0.76 $1.46
Monthly ticket public transport $85 $133

Personal Care
Cold medicine for 6 days (Tylenol, Frenadol, Coldrex, or equivalent brands) $7 $13
1 box of antibiotics (12 doses) $19 $12
Short visit to private Doctor (15 minutes) $113 $66
1 box of 32 tampons (Tampax, OB, ...) $7 $7
Deodorant, roll-on (50ml ~ 1.5 oz.) $3.49 $5.13
Hair shampoo 2-in-1 (400 ml ~ 12 oz.) $5.05 $7
4 rolls of toilet paper $3.40 $2.92
Tube of toothpaste $1.85 $3.52
Standard men's haircut in expat area of the city $21 $29

Entertainment
Basic dinner out for two in neighborhood pub $44 $58
2 tickets to the movies $25 $29
2 tickets to the theater (best available seats) $172 $240
Dinner for two at an Italian restaurant in the expat area including appetisers, main course, wine and dessert $79 $103
1 cocktail drink in downtown club $11 $17
Cappuccino in expat area of the city $4.84 $4.50
1 beer in neighbourhood pub (500ml or 1pt.) $5.82 $8
iPad Wi-Fi 128GB $429 $535
1 min. of prepaid mobile tariff (no discounts or plans) $0.32 $0.54
1 month of gym membership in business district $53 $59
1 package of Marlboro cigarettes $8 $29

Source (https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/brisbane).

So it’s expensive here but our minimum wage is $18.93 an hour, while it’s only $7.25 in the US. Working full time at that rate you’re taxed at around 12% in the US, that’s the same rate as Australia, earning up to $38,700 (next bracket is 22%).

So yeah, that’s tough going for Americans because it certainly isn’t easy going here with what we get paid. I’m guessing also that there’s a higher percentage of Americans who are on minimum wage than there are in Australia (although there’s a lot here too), since the system for higher education here isn’t so crippling (still tough going if you’re not from the city, living away from home, as many do). Last time I checked, there’s no big interest rates on student loans here, (fees but not terrible) and nobody else has to pay it if you die.

I’m wondering how difficult it is to get a trade in the US? And how well do they get paid? Seems to be the way to go? It varies greatly here, depending who you work for and what your trade is, but generally it’s a decent step up from minimum wage in Australia, maybe $5 and up more, but you have to live on very little while doing your apprenticeship.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

So it’s expensive here but our minimum wage is $18.93 an hour, while it’s only $7.25 in the US. Working full time at that rate you’re taxed at around 12% in the US, that’s the same rate as Australia, earning up to $38,700 (next bracket is 22%).

$7.25 is the federal minimum wage. It's $11 in California, and $12-13 in New York, depending on the size of the business, but the cost of living in those states is much higher as well. California and New York are both talking about raising their minimum wages to $15, but it only causes inflation.

In economic terms, the minimum wage is a price floor. It puts constraints on the functioning of the market and isn't really a good thing, though it's enticing to the general public in the same way that "free" government hand-outs are enticing to the general public, despite their economic ramifications.

This is how it's taught in economics classes, at least where the science of economics is still taught at all (many universities aren't requiring it anymore):

https://pepperdinesummarynotes.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/5.png

The price for labor set by the market itself, by the law of supply and demand, is the equilibrium price, or W(E) in this graph. The minimum wage is set higher, at W(MIN). The red line is the supply of labor and the blue line is demand for labor.

My economics textbook explains this better than I can, and uses a similar graph, so I'll just quote it here:


A minimum wage functions as a price floor. ... Note that the wage, or the cost of labor, on the y axis ($10 per hour) is the price that must be paid [W(MIN) in the graph above]. However, the market equilibrium wage ($7), or W(E), is below the minimum wage. The minimum wage prevents the market from reaching W(E) at E (the equilibrium point) because only the wages in the green shaded area are legal [above the black bar in the graph above]. Since the demand for labor depends on how much it costs, the minimum wage raises the cost of hiring workers. Therefore, a higher minimum wage will lower the quantity of labor demanded. However, since businesses still need to serve their customers, this means that labor expenses for the firm ordinarily rise in the short run. At the same time, firms will look for ways to substitute additional capital for workers. As a result, a binding minimum wage results in unemployment in the short run since Q(SSR) > Q(DSR).

Businesses generally want to keep costs down, so in the long run they will try to reduce the amount they spend on labor. They might replace workers with machinery, shorten work hours, offer reduced customer service, or even relocate to countries that do not have minimum wage laws. As we move past the short run, more people will attempt to take advantage of higher minimum wages. Like firms, workers will adjust to the higher minimum wage over time. Some workers who might have decided to go to school full-time or remain retired, or who simply want some extra income, will enter the labor market because the minimum wage is now higher. As a result, minimum wage jobs will become progressively harder to find and unemployment will be magnified. The irony is that in the long run the minimum wage, just like any other price floor, has created two unintended consequences: a smaller demand for workers by employers (Q(DLR) is significantly less than Q(E)), and a larger supply of workers (Q(SLR)) looking for those previously existing jobs.

Proponents of minimum wage legislation are aware that it often creates unemployment. To address this problem, they support investment in training, education, and the creation of government job programs [ie, socialism] to provide more work opportunities. While job programs increase minimum wage jobs, training and additional education enable workers to acquire skills needed for jobs that pay more than the minimum wage. Economists generally believe that education and training programs have longer-lasting benefits to society as a whole since they enable workers to obtain better-paying jobs on a permanent basis.

The textbook goes on to give an example of minimum wage increases causing economic hardship in Africa, but we don't have to go that far to see real-world examples of what is being taught here.

Price floors in action:


Thanks To 'Fight For $15' Minimum Wage, McDonald's Unveils Job-Replacing Self-Service Kiosks Nationwide

As the labor union-backed Fight for $15 begins yet another nationwide strike on November 29, I have a simple message for the protest organizers and the reporters covering them: I told you so.

It brings me no joy to write these words. The push for a $15 starter wage has negatively impacted the career prospects of employees who were just getting started in the workforce while extinguishing the businesses that employed them. I wish it were not so. But it’s important to document these consequences, lest policymakers elsewhere decide that the $15 movement is worth embracing.

Let’s start with automation. In 2013, when the Fight for $15 was still in its growth stage, I and others warned that union demands for a much higher minimum wage would force businesses with small profit margins to replace full-service employees with costly investments in self-service alternatives. At the time, labor groups accused business owners of crying wolf. It turns out the wolf was real.

Earlier this month, McDonald’s announced the nationwide roll-out of touchscreen self-service kiosks. In a video the company released to showcase the new customer experience, it’s striking to see employees who once would have managed a cash register now reduced to monitoring a customer’s choices at an iPad-style kiosk.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/29/thanks-to-fight-for-15-minimum-wage-mcdonalds-unveils-job-replacing-self-service-kiosks-nationwide/#60b3a48d4fbc

In other words, McDonalds is firing employees and replacing them with robots at great short-term expense (burger-flippers too, though they aren't mentioned in this article), because the mandated price floor (minimum wage) has forced them out of free market equilibrium.

This is really the same reason why you can't just pass a law making a $1,000,000,000,000 minimum wage. I mean if this was really the solution, then we could do that, but obviously that would shut down an entire economy immediately.

It also causes inflation, because when everyone's pay checks go up, they all start spending more money, demand increases, supply shrinks in the short run, and cost of living goes up. The minimum wage keeps going higher and higher, and so does everything else, right along with it.

In order for labor costs to be sustainable, they have to be in equilibrium with what the free market wants. If people aren't spending money on something, you can't force a company to pay higher costs for labor without negative consequences.

The textbook I quote above says that the solution offered by politicians is more government interference, putting the market more under the direct control of the government, with your government suddenly having to step in to provide your jobs and everything else. This is the downward spiral to totalitarianism and communism, or like what has happened in Venezuela.

Like I said, a lot of universities don't even teach this anymore, so it's no wonder that most people don't understand that minimum wage is a price floor, or what price floors do to the free market. Our founding fathers were gravely concerned that future politicians would "buy" the vote of the people by offering them "free" stuff, and all of the above is the reason why. It turns into the government having to step in to try to micro-manage the economy, which is what always causes communism to fail, because you just can't effectively run an economy with bureaucracy like that.


I’m wondering how difficult it is to get a trade in the US? And how well do they get paid? Seems to be the way to go? It varies greatly here, depending who you work for and what your trade is, but generally it’s a decent step up from minimum wage in Australia, maybe $5 and up more, but you have to live on very little while doing your apprenticeship.

It depends on the trade. Most of them require certification and licensing of some sort, but not necessarily formal education, and those jobs pay very well, usually $20-30 starting out. Plumbers make a crazy amount of money, because they're apparently in high demand and short supply. Construction workers also make good money starting out, though cheap Mexican labor puts a downward pressure on those wages, as it does in any industry.

[RedX]

Canada has now legalized recreational marijuana, which is supposed to be injecting $4Bn worth of industry into Canada.

https://www.rt.com/business/441485-canada-legalises-cannabis-sale/

[Innocent Warrior]

$7.25 is the federal minimum wage...

OK, yeah our minimum wage varies between industries, some are lower than that, some higher. Well here’s hoping it goes up to $15, across the states would be better, they’d be doing better than here then, considering the difference in cost of living.

It’s still tough, we need two basic incomes or one decent income to get by and more if we’re to make any ground. No wonder we don’t have enough children to replace ourselves.

Trades - yep, tradesmen and women here are certified, most apprenticeships take four years to complete, as far as I’m aware, some are shorter (they work in their trade and complete a set amount of hours of education at tafe).

Thanks for the info, Voice.

[DeDukshyn]

Canada has now legalized recreational marijuana, which is supposed to be injecting $4Bn worth of industry into Canada.

https://www.rt.com/business/441485-canada-legalises-cannabis-sale/

"Good for th economy!" - they tell us -- that 4billion will never see the middle class ... it'll be taken from them (corporate giants already are taking over the industry and it was just legalized yesterday). Sure governments will have a little more tax money to squander foolishly ...