Gurdjieff's 4th way

[pueblo]

I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

Thank you.

[leavesoftrees]

I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

Thank you.

Many people begin learning about Gurdjieff's work through P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous"

You could also watch the film "Meetings with remarkable men" based on the book of the same name

If you wish to pursue further it is best to contact a Gurdjieff group, as really it is an oral tradition and any book is only going to give you only the tip of the iceberg

This wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdjieff_Foundation

gives you a list of Gurdjieff groups at the bottom of the page. Probably the UK contact would be best for you and they will put you in touch with a group in Ireland

[Deux Corbeaux]

What is it you want to know?

“I want to learn. I want to understand”

Be careful… What do you call learning?
If it means storing up experiences and beliefs it will tie you like a chord and prevent you from knowing.
Knowing happens directly. When not even thought stands between you and the thing you know.
Then you see yourself as you are not as you would like to be. I have learnt how difficult this can be.
Dear young friend I will do everything I can to help you attain your aim.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVgLNo6ZMX4

[pueblo]

I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

Thank you.

Many people begin learning about Gurdjieff's work through P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous"

You could also watch the film "Meetings with remarkable men" based on the book of the same name

If you wish to pursue further it is best to contact a Gurdjieff group, as really it is an oral tradition and any book is only going to give you only the tip of the iceberg

This wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdjieff_Foundation

gives you a list of Gurdjieff groups at the bottom of the page. Probably the UK contact would be best for you and they will put you in touch with a group in Ireland

Thanks very much. I am currently nearly finished reading In Search of the Miraculous.

I am of course aware of the need for a teacher or guide and that G has said it is impossible to know if you have found a teacher that is connected to a center standing outside of the law of accident until you have crossed the first threshold and actually started the work/way.

Thanks again for the info.

[Deux Corbeaux]

Here's a beautiful introduction to Gurdjieff and his works

He was light years ahead of his time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKzEh56LeLM

[pueblo]

What is it you want to know?

“I want to learn. I want to understand”

Be careful… What do you call learning?
If it means storing up experiences and beliefs it will tie you like a chord and prevent you from knowing.
Knowing happens directly. When not even thought stands between you and the thing you know.
Then you see yourself as you are not as you would like to be. I have learnt how difficult this can be.
Dear young friend I will do everything I can to help you attain your aim.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVgLNo6ZMX4

Thank you for your post and link.

At the risk of claiming understanding when no true understanding can take place in Man Number 1, Man Number 2 and Man Number 3 (i certainly must fall into one of these catagories), I do appear to understand (as far as is possible for me) the difference between external 'knowing' and the material change needed (the development of the Astral and Mental bodies firstly) to begin the work.

Trying to 'watch the watcher' or attempts at self-remembering prove what an impossible path this is to choose, but a path that I nonetheless feel drawn to. Many are called but few are chosen.

John Baines' The Stellar Man was also an interesting read in a similar vein.

*Edit: Taking the question at the start of your post 'What is it you want to know' I can only answer this by saying I want to know how to become a man (human). I want to be the master of my driver, horses and carriage. I just hope the 'I' that wants this is not just another one of the many I's in me.

[Kristin]

I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

Thank you.

IMO this may currently be one of the most important threads on Avalon. I'm very happy to see this thread and hope that others in the community catch on. I would also suggest looking into the Dark Journalist X series from the beginning to current to observe the involvement of the mystery schools and how they have been directly changing and moving history. There is much to learn there.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqOdHprLVQnHhE8FmIY3Yzg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSVNSAy02ss

[Valerie Villars]

Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.

[Deux Corbeaux]

It must have been about 30 years ago that his books found me and still I will find new layers of understanding every time I read them.
He never stops triggering me.

Here's a beautiful quote of his:

"To know means to know all.
Not to know all means not to know.
In order to know all, it is only necessary to know a little.
But, in order to know this little, it is first necessary to know pretty much."

:)

Add

The most valuable thing Gurdjieff gave me was his warning to "verify everything for myself"

[TomKat]

My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.

[ichingcarpenter]

It must have been about 30 years ago that his books found me and still I will find new layers of understanding every time I read them.
He never stops triggering me.

Here's a beautiful quote of his:

"To know means to know all.
Not to know all means not to know.
In order to know all, it is only necessary to know a little.
But, in order to know this little, it is first necessary to know pretty much."

:)

Add

The most valuable thing Gurdjieff gave me was his warning to "verify everything for myself"

Its been 30 years for me too. He holds a special place in my metaphysical, esoteric, philosophical development
I have to put Krishnamurti as well as others in that colorful box of wonderful philosophers, mystics and thinkers. I think the first book that gave me new directions on this path was 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' which I read in 74, my eldest brother gave it to me for my birthday it made me question or look at values.

[pueblo]

Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.

I know what you mean about things happening naturally and there is truth in this to a certain extent only imo... Gurdjieff would say that it is impossible (or next to impossible) for man to awaken by himself... he states that a man is unable to do anything, to know anything or be anything until he realises first he can do nothing, know nothing nor be anything by his own volition.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.

Therein lies the rub. How to proceed without self delusion?

[Kristin]

I've been enjoying Kay Smith and thought I would share. This is a great channel. Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW9I7l3w2-k

[5th]

I was a member of a UK Gurdjieff school for several years back in the 70s.

It's undoubtedly a useful and practical philosophy starting with 'impartial self-observation' and the realisation that we have intellectual, emotional and moving/instinctive centres or individual brains and that it is only possible to function correctly when the right part of the right brain is used for the right job.

However, I have to say that these days with the huge increase in consciousness it is outdated and there are better, more direct methods to raise your level of being.

Also, Gurdjieff himself was a product of a harsh childhood and his teaching reflects this in as much as it is lacking in love and compassion. That said, I still believe it is the best foundation for true self knowledge. Only with this understanding can anyone begin to be honest with themselves...

[pueblo]

I was a member of a UK Gurdjieff school for several years back in the 70s.

It's undoubtedly a useful and practical philosophy starting with 'impartial self-observation' and the realisation that we have intellectual, emotional and moving/instinctive centres or individual brains and that it is only possible to function correctly when the right part of the right brain is used for the right job.

However, I have to say that these days with the huge increase in consciousness it is outdated and there are better, more direct methods to raise your level of being.

Also, Gurdjieff himself was a product of a harsh childhood and his teaching reflects this in as much as it is lacking in love and compassion. That said, I still believe it is the best foundation for true self knowledge. Only with this understanding can anyone begin to be honest with themselves...

Thank you for your post.

What is your take on the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky view that a person can not change himself by himself, that it requires (initially) submission to the will of another (teacher/guide) who is qualified (standing outside the law of accident) to teach/guide?

They seem to be clear that ALL attempts without such a teacher will come to nothing and worse further entangle the person in self deception.

5th, you say there are "better, more direct methods to raise your level of being"....can you elaborate on what these methods are?

[5th]

What is your take on the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky view that a person can not change himself by himself, that it requires (initially) submission to the will of another (teacher/guide) who is qualified (standing outside the law of accident) to teach/guide?

They seem to be clear that ALL attempts without such a teacher will come to nothing and worse further entangle the person in self deception.

5th, you say there are "better, more direct methods to raise your level of being"....can you elaborate on what these methods are?


I suppose a 'teacher' is necessary for The 4th Way and yes, 'entangle the person in self deception' is a fate suffered by most on the path to enlightenment.

That said, you have to understand that things are very different these days. Back then, spirituality was talked about in allegory and never directly. Gurdjieff himself couched it in 'science' but now it is all out in the open and part of the collective unconscious. There are many teachers freely available on the Internet and it's no longer a secretive thing for the few. For example, Bashar and Teal Swan are good sources of a deeper spiritually and self development than The 4th Way. But again I repeat that it is perhaps the best system to understand the human machine.

I would cite both Bashar (Darrly Anka) and Teal as two sources to raise your level of being in a more direct way. But the problem is that only a few people are really ready to be honest with themselves and actually do the (painful) work required. I remember the time when I moved on from The 4th Way group after realising that 4 out of 5 people there were doing and achieving nothing. As a point of interest, three of us went to a Greek island for a year and lived without electricity or running water after we became disillusioned with the Gurdjieff school and that was a great learning experience.

Whenever we find s new source of teaching the common pitfall is to (rightly) become excited and believe this is THE answer and we'll be doing it for the rest of our life. However, I know for sure that everything is just a stage in our life and only the narrow minded and stuck remain in one place...

In the end, we must become our own teachers because everything is within but it's a long and interesting path to actually see that. Anything with a guru and a hierarchy belongs to the old world - the one that Gurdjieff unsuccessfully tried to 'squash like a bug'! Remember his own inner demons from childhood resulted in a near fatal car crash and the end of his 'Work'. So even he, great and important though he was, failed in fully sorting himself out.

Don't let that put you off - learn all you can about his methods and apply the impartial self observation, understand how the centres work and it will be of great benefit to you. This can be done without a teacher.

[pueblo]

Thank you 5th.

I can hear your Greek island calling me now :)

[leavesoftrees]

I suppose a 'teacher' is necessary for The 4th Way and yes, 'entangle the person in self deception' is a fate suffered by most on the path to enlightenment.

That said, you have to understand that things are very different these days. Back then, spirituality was talked about in allegory and never directly. Gurdjieff himself couched it in 'science' but now it is all out in the open and part of the collective unconscious. There are many teachers freely available on the Internet and it's no longer a secretive thing for the few. For example, Bashar and Teal Swan are good sources of a deeper spiritually and self development than The 4th Way. But again I repeat that it is perhaps the best system to understand the human machine.

I would cite both Bashar (Darrly Anka) and Teal as two sources to raise your level of being in a more direct way. But the problem is that only a few people are really ready to be honest with themselves and actually do the (painful) work required. I remember the time when I moved on from The 4th Way group after realising that 4 out of 5 people there were doing and achieving nothing. As a point of interest, three of us went to a Greek island for a year and lived without electricity or running water after we became disillusioned with the Gurdjieff school and that was a great learning experience.

Whenever we find s new source of teaching the common pitfall is to (rightly) become excited and believe this is THE answer and we'll be doing it for the rest of our life. However, I know for sure that everything is just a stage in our life and only the narrow minded and stuck remain in one place...

In the end, we must become our own teachers because everything is within but it's a long and interesting path to actually see that. Anything with a guru and a hierarchy belongs to the old world - the one that Gurdjieff unsuccessfully tried to 'squash like a bug'! Remember his own inner demons from childhood resulted in a near fatal car crash and the end of his 'Work'. So even he, great and important though he was, failed in fully sorting himself out.

Don't let that put you off - learn all you can about his methods and apply the impartial self observation, understand how the centres work and it will be of great benefit to you. This can be done without a teacher.

I was in a Gurdjieff group for about 10 years, but left when I realised that it was time for me to leave school . It was a valuable experience to get a sense of the Gurdjieff work, but I think I only scratched the surface

I do think you need a teacher, that self observation needs to be learnt and practised and discussed in a group. It is very easy to be swept away with the Gurdjieff ideas, but the ideas aren't the work, and without the work they can easily become fantasy

We can't know to what extent Gurdjieff sorted himself out. He was a man on another level and 70 years after his death it is impossible to say. But what we can now see is that in the years since his death many people in many countries throughout the world have practised his methods and are still practising them. And get results from them. there are problems with the different organisations that carry on his teachings , but they at least are carrying them on.

At his funeral there was a considerable delay for his coffin to arrive at the church, which was packed with his students and those whose lives had been touched by M. Bon Bon. the priest was amazed. and said later he had never seen a congregation which sat in such undistracted silence, a homage to their teacher who taught how to be present to themselves

Bi2Yg8rJs2Q

[TomKat]

Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.

I know what you mean about things happening naturally and there is truth in this to a certain extent only imo... Gurdjieff would say that it is impossible (or next to impossible) for man to awaken by himself... he states that a man is unable to do anything, to know anything or be anything until he realises first he can do nothing, know nothing nor be anything by his own volition.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.

Therein lies the rub. How to proceed without self delusion?

Fake it till you make it?

[TomKat]

Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

[Deux Corbeaux]

Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/amrit-blog/source-wisdom-sacred-texts/know-lesson-buddha/

[greybeard]

Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/amrit-blog/source-wisdom-sacred-texts/know-lesson-buddha/

Non-duality is simple and what the majority of Mystics point to these days.
Self Realization, the discovery that one is already enlightened but this is obscured by Maya
One does not need a teacher--there has been cases of this happening spontaneously Raman Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle to name but just two.
Complicated teaching tend to lead one away on a path.
Non-duality is about uncovering what is there already.
One without a second as expressed by Advaita Vedanta.
This is a direct experience

Chris

[O Donna]

Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/amrit-blog/source-wisdom-sacred-texts/know-lesson-buddha/

Non-duality is simple and what the majority of Mystics point to these days.
Self Realization, the discovery that one is already enlightened but this is obscured by Maya
One does not need a teacher--there has been cases of this happening spontaneously Raman Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle to name but just two.
Complicated teaching tend to lead one away on a path.
Non-duality is about uncovering what is there already.
One without a second as expressed by Advaita Vedanta.
This is a direct experience

Chris

So true.

The direct experience, anything else is as a pale comparison.

It is like trying to relate an experience to another that has never experienced the superlative. One may try but ultimately words fall flat in the attempt. There is a glimpse, a tease but never in full through such things as words, thoughts, ideas, or detailed media alone.

The 'other than' direct experience using an analogy would be that of spinning wheels. Imagine progressing for eternity convinced of having come a long ways only to discover no progress (or regression) had ever actually occurred.

Relating only to all possible instruments/ feedback one would be led to believe they've made a great deal of progress but if an instrument could be placed externally the distance covered would be essentially zero.

Not hard to think of the 'rat race', or hamster wheel. "Where are you going little hamster?"

https://media.giphy.com/media/pEhpnpkPlyP3q/giphy.gif

Look, one is getting ahead (but not really).

[pueblo]

Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/amrit-blog/source-wisdom-sacred-texts/know-lesson-buddha/

Non-duality is simple and what the majority of Mystics point to these days.
Self Realization, the discovery that one is already enlightened but this is obscured by Maya
One does not need a teacher--there has been cases of this happening spontaneously Raman Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle to name but just two.
Complicated teaching tend to lead one away on a path.
Non-duality is about uncovering what is there already.
One without a second as expressed by Advaita Vedanta.
This is a direct experience

Chris

So true.

The direct experience, anything else is as a pale comparison.

It is like trying to relate an experience to another that has never experienced the superlative. One may try but ultimately words fall flat in the attempt. There is a glimpse, a tease but never in full through such things as words, thoughts, ideas, or detailed media alone.

The 'other than' direct experience using an analogy would be that of spinning wheels. Imagine progressing for eternity convinced of having come a long ways only to discover no progress (or regression) had ever actually occurred.

Relating only to all possible instruments/ feedback one would be led to believe they've made a great deal of progress but if an instrument could be placed externally the distance covered would be essentially zero.

Not hard to think of the 'rat race', or hamster wheel. "Where are you going little hamster?"

https://media.giphy.com/media/pEhpnpkPlyP3q/giphy.gif

Look, one is getting ahead (but not really).

It is a little like the phenomenon where people lost in a forest or jungle can spends days and weeks walking, thinking they are following a definite direction, only to discover they are actually walking in circles.

Ending up back where I started seems to be a recurring theme in my spiritual journey! Sometimes though, it is necessary to go backwards in order to go forwards.

What you say about 'words falling flat' in attempting to either learn or communicate spiritual ideas and concepts is correct, this is what Gurdjieff was trying to address with his concise use of language where the definition of words (that can have many meanings...Babel?) are broken down or expanded so that there is a more exact understanding of what they actually reference.

To truly understand then is a function of being, not of the mind.

[greybeard]

Ego loves complex ideas but you are not an idea.
When teachers speak of dying to know one self (Jesus did) they mean death of the ego.
The ego is self identification the story of the little me.

The wave becomes the ocean but it is water, always was.
Compressed consciousness, the person becomes what it always was, the full consciousness.
The mystics say there is nothing but consciousness.

The so called path gets narrower and narrower.
Yes the mind will take you round and round --been there often.
All very interesting but a distraction none the less.

Be still and know that I am "God".
Its that simple, meditate and use Self Inquiry --nothing to explain.

Chris

[greybeard]

This is a direct experience account of enlightenment.
Tim's thread linked below.
Chris


Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is."

On the link is a complete account of awakening.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

[Bo Atkinson]

I loved the freedom to explore consciousness development as i wanted to understand what was available to understand. Over 50 years probing here and there, lead me to live lightly in the woods (47 years in one low cost junk yard at arrival as a young man), as attempted career pursuits seemed to oppose consciousness-goals, where one was required to instead fill mind with all the pertaining knowledge of commercial fixations. This sort of knowledge was steered away from, as it is just data and not deeper life experience. Gradual growth of internal understanding seems to be consciousness development, (evolving human mentality, emotionality and physicality).

My favorite Gurdjieff memory is his book “Meetings with Remarkable Men” because it touched more on his adventuresome experience, which spoke to my youthful sensibility. He seemed to promise a “third series” which was allegedly published in the mid 1970s, but did not seem related to this promise. My favorite part of the Meetings book was about Brothers Sez and Brother Ahl:


I must tell you that in our brotherhood there are two very old
brethren; one is called Brother Ahl and the other Brother Sez,
These brethren have voluntarily undertaken the obligation of
penodically visiting all the raonastenes of our order and explain-
ing vanous aspects of the essence of divmity.

[…]

‘Yes, Professor, knowledge and understanding are quite
different. Only understanding can lead to being, whereas know-
ledge is but a passing presence in it. New knowledge displaces the
old and the result is, as it were, a pouring from the empty into
the void.


Thanks to this site for easy access, (please forgive lack of edited spelling)... Gratefully an OCR is on line at:
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.65744/2015.65744.Meetings-With-Remarkable-Men_djvu.txt

‘Empty’ and ‘void’ has been a lasting reference point
to savor continually, for more and more ^__^


Lately the Pythagoreans (http://laurency.com) offer me the best procedures to distinguish what is mere data filled robots, invading mind and what is consciousness in experiential forms, successionally and subtly developing.

[greybeard]

The understanding of consciousness can be expanded but consciousness as pointed to by the enlightened mystics is eternal and unchanging, it is perfection, always was always will be--no beginning no end.
The human being can grow expand etc
We are temporally in human form--the in-dweller.

There is a mass evolution of the human race "spirituality" going on just now.
Current spiritual teachers have millions of followers with teaching related to similar "experiences" of awakening as related by Tim in his thread.
The story of the spontaneous and complete awakening of Ramana Maharshi at the age of sixteen is very convincing.

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVYv9ktilQw

[pueblo]

The understanding of consciousness can be expanded but consciousness as pointed to by the enlightened mystics is eternal and unchanging, it is perfection, always was always will be--no beginning no end.
The human being can grow expand etc
We are temporally in human form--the in-dweller.

There is a mass evolution of the human race "spirituality" going on just now.
Current spiritual teachers have millions of followers with teaching related to similar "experiences" of awakening as related by Tim in his thread.
The story of the spontaneous and complete awakening of Ramana Maharshi at the age of sixteen is very convincing.

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVYv9ktilQw

Would you agree that the mass spiritual evolution you speak of seems to be paralleled with a mass spiritual 'devolution' as well?

It seems to me that while one portion of humanity is awakening, another portion is sinking further and further into deeper sleep.

[greybeard]

pueblo
While I am reluctant to say so.
It would seem that the "good" is getting better and the bad getting "worse"
However its only a few generations back that the Scots for one were into beheading with swords.
Now if there is a disaster of any magnitude, people dive deep into their pockets to help people they will never meet, in countries far away.
People die every second--children born every moment.
Who knows were any of this is going, but I hope for a better future for all.

Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

The understanding of consciousness can be expanded but consciousness as pointed to by the enlightened mystics is eternal and unchanging, it is perfection, always was always will be--no beginning no end.
The human being can grow expand etc
We are temporally in human form--the in-dweller.


Ah yes and while we are all but humans, more or less challenged with the the tasks of being...

the enlightened and the learned spoke,

we may have listened going forward,

preferably not backwards to for the next eon of incarnations.

Why not do it in the road? ^__^ : )

[greybeard]

I think it sensible to investigate what enlightenment actually is.
What "path" has a proven success rate.
Is it down to Divine Grace?
The number of people now awakened is far far greater than when I first became interested in the subject.
Many people interviewed on Conscious TV and Buddha at the gas pump.
https://batgap.com/

For me the question who/what am I? has the most importance/priority and has been so as long as I can remember.
Each to their own of course.

Chris

[pueblo]

I think it sensible to investigate what enlightenment actually is.
What "path" has a proven success rate.
Is it down to Divine Grace?
The number of people now awakened is far far greater than when I first became interested in the subject.
Many people interviewed on Conscious TV and Buddha at the gas pump.
https://batgap.com/

For me the question who/what am I? has the most importance/priority and has been so as long as I can remember.
Each to their own of course.

Chris

Those questions you allude to have always been the most important 'things' in my life too, however it has been difficult at times to remain awake and focused on them, so many distractions in life, either by accident or design.

[O Donna]

Have you ever had an what can only be described as an epiphany which offered the sense of clarity only to realize later on, though beautiful in was, had an element that could be described as seeing through a glass darkly?

Indirect experiences can be breathtaking while the direct experience is unimaginable. If one can image-able a direct experience, that is not it.

[pueblo]

Unimaginable yes, unattainable........?

Aspiring to attain something even approximating joy mightn't be such a bad thing in the final analysis....asleep or not..

Teilhard de Chardin sounds a little like Gurdjieff to me here.


"Joy is above all the fruit of having come face to face with a universal and enduring reality to which one can refer and as it were attach those fragmentary moments of happiness that, being successive and fugitive, excite the heart without satisfying it. The mystic suffers more than other men from the tendency of created things to crumble into dust: instinctively and obstinately he searches for the stable, the unfailing, the absolute."

-Teilhard de Chardin Hymn of the Universe

[enigma3]

Buddha, and Gurdjieff, both attempted to teach/transmit pointing out instructions whose "goal" is awakening. Dzogchen, the most sublime teaching in the short way, comes from Tibetan Buddhism. There are many paths in Eastern teachings but few in Western teachings.
All the mass religions had outer, inner an secret teachings. Dzogchen, and Gurdjieff, taught the short way. Gurdjieff's eyes tell me he was awake.
To the Jesus saying - the "spiritual" eye sees oneness. Only one eye is needed. The third eye. This oneness manifests here as light. And thus we have Jesus validating a paramount feature of the awakened state (or even partially awakened), the ability to see light. Everywhere. Different layers of light. Em Ah Ho. It is amazing.

[5th]

Here's Osho with his million dollar diamond watch talking about the 9 year old Gurdjieff when his father died.

2aT_sSY6swY

[Hazelfern]

I have to admit this topic is so over my head. The book title came to me in a weird way.
P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous”
1999 or 2000 a mailer came to the house: “Learn how to trade commodities.”
Honestly, I have long forgotten who sent the mailer
but it was based on 1,2,3 tops and bottoms in market
graph formations. The guy allegedly became filthy rich
trading commodities based on tops and bottoms and
therefore was somehow moved to suggest reading the
book and actually doing something memorable.
It made zero sense to me at the time. 2002. Could not
make heads or tails out of it.
In hind sight, I think he was trying to form a cult.

[pueblo]

I have to admit this topic is so over my head. The book title came to me in a weird way.
P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous”
1999 or 2000 a mailer came to the house: “Learn how to trade commodities.”
Honestly, I have long forgotten who sent the mailer
but it was based on 1,2,3 tops and bottoms in market
graph formations. The guy allegedly became filthy rich
trading commodities based on tops and bottoms and
therefore was somehow moved to suggest reading the
book and actually doing something memorable.
It made zero sense to me at the time. 2002. Could not
make heads or tails out of it.
In hind sight, I think he was trying to form a cult.

I find the whole 'Octaves' idea in Search for the Miraculous difficult to understand and well over my head! The more metaphyisical/Psychological concepts are easier to grasp in my opinion.

I am reading this next..

Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky by Maurice Nicoll, available as a PDF..

http://www.gianfrancobertagni.it/materiali/gurdjieff/nicoll_commentari1.pdf

[5th]

"I find the whole 'Octaves' idea in Search for the Miraculous difficult to understand and well over my head! The more metaphyisical/Psychological concepts are easier to grasp in my opinion."

One of the most useful aspects of the 'Octaves' concept is that of 'missing half notes'. If you look at a piano keyboard octave there are black half notes between Doh and Ray, Ray and Me but there is one missing between Me and Fah - the Me Fah gap.

If you think of any project or pursuit, the stages can be broken down into notes of an octave and we find that things progress easily in the beginning - Doh, Ray, Me but when we hit the Me Fah gap problems start. Unless we are aware of this and consciously inject energy at this point the path will deviate from the original intention.

Then things progress OK until we get to the next missing black half note between Te (Si in some languages) and the final Doh goal. These deviations that happen, unless a person (or organisation) is consciously able to overcome them, explain why all normal human endeavour ends up poorly and if several octaves are involved always ends up in the opposite direction. People start out with good intentions but it rarely works out...

[pueblo]

Here's Osho with his million dollar diamond watch talking about the 9 year old Gurdjieff when his father died.

2aT_sSY6swY

Great advice from Gurdjieff's father as relayed by Osho.

Anger must then be a sure sign of 'inner considering'?

[Deux Corbeaux]

Here's Osho with his million dollar diamond watch talking about the 9 year old Gurdjieff when his father died.

2aT_sSY6swY

Great advice from Gurdjieff's father as relayed by Osho.

Anger must then be a sure sign of 'inner considering'?

Most of the time it is a waste of energy.

[greybeard]

A Course in Miracles says--"You are never angry for the reason you think you are"
Venting letting of steam very clear and wise expressions.
Whatever is thought of Osho--he knew what he talked about regarding Enlightenment.
You dont have to be a Saint to be enlightened.

Persona is an expression of the body/mind which remains after enlightenment.
Chris

[greybeard]

Mooji recently said
That what took years in a monastery to learn is available here and now.
I tend to believe that the human race has evolved to the point where it is ready to step up to non-duality--
Self Realization awakening--whatever you want to label it.

Think it may be in this video
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=1255707&viewfull=1#post1255707

[onawah]

DARK JOURNALIST X-SERIES XXXII: PD OUSPENSKY THE FOURTH WAY GURDJIEFF & RECURRENCE
10/27/18
fafnsCaOpVo

[Bo Atkinson]

DARK JOURNALIST X-SERIES XXXII...

THE FOURTH WAY GURDJIEFF & RECURRENCE
Comment /Pinned by DarkJournalist
Olivia Wingsgirl
QUOTE OF THE NIGHT FROM GURDJIEFF HIMSELF: "Man is a machine, but a very peculiar machine. He is a machine which, in right circumstances, and with right treatment, ... he may find the ways to cease to be a machine." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fafnsCaOpVo)

~~~~~~~~~
Nikola Tesla (a widely respected scientist and major world benefactor), wrote a noteworthy article over a 100 years ago, stating, in parts: “The human being is a self- propelled automaton…” (Writing also: “… Descartes … in the seventeenth century… laid the first foundation to the mechanistic theory of life…”). Could this approach scientifically explore technology and understanding of incarnation? I feel this subject circumvents abuses of mind control or the singularity. (Said by a TI here.)
~~~~~~~~~
Pythagoreans outline the incarnation system, beyond many legacies, providing the best understanding i’ve ever seen, describing the robotic-selves of humans, in contrast to the real self, (but with other terminology). Mystics and magicians have also had their say, but the most comprehensive books (http://laurency.com), patiently go beyond the whirling physicals and mind blowing emotional robotics, to personally exercise the internal will of the real self.

[greybeard]

The ego wants to be "Somebody"
Who/what does one want to believe?
Jesus "The Father and I are One"
The direct statements of Tim on this forum from that which was, is, experienced on enlightenment and the mystics of today and yesterday.
The mind will take one round and round in complex circles but is there Truth at the end of it?
One self is a fact not an idea or an opinion.
One can verify that nothing exterior is needed to prove I am.

Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

Thanks to Rob, Indeed “one can"


The ego wants to be "Somebody" ...One can verify that nothing exterior is needed to prove I am...

One can graduate through consciousness domains, onward up 'ladders'.

How one gets there requires no egos.

This thread is titled by Gurdjieff’s/Ouspensky's 4th way which also deserves a bit of the scientific perspective and rationale, besides instant-Nirvana (or lift off, reaching inward, where science demands clearer exercise than mystics provide) .

[greybeard]

Thanks to Rob, Indeed “one can"


The ego wants to be "Somebody" ...One can verify that nothing exterior is needed to prove I am...

One can graduate through consciousness domains, onward up 'ladders'.

How one gets there requires no egos.

This thread is titled by Gurdjieff’s/Ouspensky's 4th way which also deserves a bit of the scientific perspective and rationale, besides instant-Nirvana (or lift off, reaching inward, where science demands clearer exercise than mystics provide) .

I dont have a challenge with upward ladders.
Enlightenment may be seen as kindergarten to the advance--however in this realm enlightenment is as far as it gets.
Every mystic that I have read stated that you cant make enlightenment happen-you can become ready to receive it through the spiritual practise--its by Divine grace--not earned.
Also every Self realized, to the best of my knowledge, has said that the ego is a separation device that must be transcended--die to one self.
Enlightenment is not a state but what you in Truth are.
On the death of the ego this is realized.
Countless accounts of this.

Chris

[pueblo]

Thanks to Rob, Indeed “one can"


The ego wants to be "Somebody" ...One can verify that nothing exterior is needed to prove I am...

One can graduate through consciousness domains, onward up 'ladders'.

How one gets there requires no egos.

This thread is titled by Gurdjieff’s/Ouspensky's 4th way which also deserves a bit of the scientific perspective and rationale, besides instant-Nirvana (or lift off, reaching inward, where science demands clearer exercise than mystics provide) .

I dont have a challenge with upward ladders.
Enlightenment may be seen as kindergarten to the advance--however in this realm enlightenment is as far as it gets.
Every mystic that I have read stated that you cant make enlightenment happen-you can become ready to receive it through the spiritual practise--its by Divine grace--not earned.
Also every Self realized, to the best of my knowledge, has said that the ego is a separation device that must be transcended--die to one self.
Enlightenment is not a state but what you in Truth are.
On the death of the ego this is realized.
Countless accounts of this.

Chris

So you wouldn't agree with the idea of having to earn it to learn it? Or does earning it simply mean dying to self/ego?

[greybeard]

pueblo im relaying what I have read and seen on video.
Consciousness--condensed/contracted to seem separate entities.
Now restricted consciousness is expending to know itself--in its fullness.
A much used pointer is water--the ocean becomes the wav--it is still water--the wave subsides into the ocean--at no time was it anything other than water.
The ancients called the process "The outbreath and in breath of God"

We are form --formless--both and neither.
The human mind can not grasp this
The ego is concerned with doing--the Self realized enjoys what unfolds.
The word Namaste means "I greet the God within" there is the acceptance that there is nowhere that God is not,.
We are That.

This is as best as my limited mind can explain--im not claiming to be correct.
Ego want to know more, and that's ok.

Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

Regarding the “Fourth Way” (https://wisdomwayofknowing.org/resource-directory/gurdjieff/) :moil: :paintgirl:



He is most notable for introducing what some refer to as “The Work,” meaning work on oneself according to Gurdjieff’s principles and instructions, or as he first referred to it,

[Deux Corbeaux]

DARK JOURNALIST X-SERIES XXXII: PD OUSPENSKY THE FOURTH WAY GURDJIEFF & RECURRENCE
10/27/18
fafnsCaOpVo

Thanks onawah. This is a great presentation on Ouspensky and Gurdjieff´s Fourth Way, with a interesting Q and A.
Daniel Liszt has great spiritual insight Such a delight to listen to him.

The first 13 minutes are about the SSP TM issue (more for the Corey Goode thread). But surely interesting as well.
The 4th Way presentation starts at about 13 minutes.


***

I add a video of Gurdjieff`s music and movements Daniel is talking about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=740PhEOdx1M

[onawah]

One thing from "the teachings" that has always fascinated me is the precaution to avoid being "food for the Moon". This must have been an intriguing enough concept when it was first widely introduced, but with what we know now about the Moon possibly being an artificial satellite with ET technology within it and ET bases on the far side, etc., and rumors that it is an instrument for gathering "loosh", the quite literal veracity of that mysterious message has certainly been enhanced.

[pueblo]

One thing from "the teachings" that has always fascinated me is the precaution to avoid being "food for the Moon". This must have been an intriguing enough concept when it was first widely introduced, but with what we know now about the Moon possibly being an artificial satellite with ET technology within it and ET bases on the far side, etc., and rumors that it is an instrument for gathering "loosh", the quite literal veracity of that mysterious message has certainly been enhanced.

I was gobsmacked when I came across this idea in 'In Search of the Miraculous'. I have read in various places that the Moon has a role in 'recycling' souls. John Lamb Lash, David Icke, Wes Penre and many anecdotal NDEs talk about this idea.

Barbara Marciniak talks about this in Bringers of the Dawn


"Consciousness vibrates, or can be led to vibrate, at certain electromagnetic frequencies. Electromagnetic energies of consciousness can be influenced to vibrate in a certain way to create a source of food. Just as apples can he prepared and eaten in a variety of ways, consciousness can be prepared and ingested in a variety of ways.

Some entities, in the process of their own evolution, began to discover that as they created life and put consciousness into things through modulating the frequencies of forms of consciousness, they could feed themselves; they could keep themselves in charge. They began to Figure out that this is how Prime Creator nourished itself. Prime Creator sends out others to create an electromagnetic frequency of consciousness as a food source for itself.

The new owners of this planet had a different appetite and different preferences than the former owners. They nourished themselves with chaos and fear. These things fed them, stimulated them, and kept them in power. These new owners who came here 300,000 years ago are the magnificent beings spoken of in your Bible, in the Babylonian and Sumerian tablets, and in texts all over the world. They came to Earth and rearranged the native human species. They rearranged your DNA in order to have you broadcast within a certain limited frequency band whose frequency could feed them and keep them in power."

Are the Archons then agents of Luna...constantly provoking us into expressing extreme emotions/vibrations (Loosh) that can be readily absorbed by the Moon?

[greybeard]

Either you believe that there is nothing but consciousness (God) as attested to by the Self realized and that God is love and that you are That ("I am That" by Nasardadatta worth a read)
Or you believe the horror stories.
Anything that promotes fear is not of God.
Bearing in mind that this is Maya --the play of consciousness.
Nothing to fear but fear.

So that is my understanding pueblo

Chris

[Flash]

DARK JOURNALIST X-SERIES XXXII: PD OUSPENSKY THE FOURTH WAY GURDJIEFF & RECURRENCE
10/27/18
fafnsCaOpVo

Thanks onawah. This is a great presentation on Ouspensky and Gurdjieff´s Fourth Way, with a interesting Q and A.
Daniel Listz has great spiritual insight Such a delight to listen to him.

The first 13 minutes are about the SSP TM issue (more for the Corey Goode thread). But surely interesting as well.
The 4th Way presentation starts at about 13 minutes.


***

I add a video of Gurdjieff`s music and movements Daniel is talking about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=740PhEOdx1M

Interesting video on the Gurdjieff dance and music.

If you notice the shaking: it is todays well know that shaking the whole body has two main functions, one is to undo knots that may occur during strenuous exercise, the other is to get rid of fear, which would be in line with Gudjieff teachings - we are fear loosh and we have to get rid of fear.

If we would shake when we have extreme fear, it would not get stuck in our bodies (to get rid of PTSD for example, as the fear happens).

Much of the other parts of dances seems to be for grounding and some for meditating of course, others for taking in energy. I wish we could talk to the dancer to ask them what is the impact.

============

Greybeard, I totally agree with your last post here.

the diagram on the floor is interesting as well.

[pueblo]

Either you believe that there is nothing but consciousness (God) as attested to by the Self realized and that God is love and that you are That ("I am That" by Nasardadatta worth a read)
Or you believe the horror stories.
Anything that promotes fear is not of God.
Bearing in mind that this is Maya --the play of consciousness.
Nothing to fear but fear.

So that is my understanding pueblo

Chris

Thanks for that. I understand (on one level) when you say there is nothing to fear but fear. Fear is a useless emotion, I have always thought that the opposite of love is not hate, but fear.

That being said it does not necessarily follow that there is nothing negative that can cause harm (in a spiritual sense). I can face the lion without fear though I may still get eaten by the lion.

I have always had an innate sense that nothing can really go wrong for us here, that we are playing out a cosmic drama and that the One is all there really is and everything reduces down (or ascends) to this eventually....

So...does it matter if we get eaten by the lion or not? Does it only matter whether or not we fear the lion? or if we do not defeat the lion are we in real spiritual danger?

I hope you can get some sense of what I am getting at, words are so ineffective (in some hands!)

[pueblo]

DARK JOURNALIST X-SERIES XXXII: PD OUSPENSKY THE FOURTH WAY GURDJIEFF & RECURRENCE
10/27/18
fafnsCaOpVo

Thanks onawah. This is a great presentation on Ouspensky and Gurdjieff´s Fourth Way, with a interesting Q and A.
Daniel Listz has great spiritual insight Such a delight to listen to him.

The first 13 minutes are about the SSP TM issue (more for the Corey Goode thread). But surely interesting as well.
The 4th Way presentation starts at about 13 minutes.


***

I add a video of Gurdjieff`s music and movements Daniel is talking about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=740PhEOdx1M

Interesting video on the Gurdjieff dance and music.

If you notice the shaking: it is todays well know that shaking the whole body has two main functions, one is to undo knots that may occur during strenuous exercise, the other is to get rid of fear, which would be in line with Gudjieff teachings - we are fear loosh and we have to get rid of fear.

If we would shake when we have extreme fear, it would not get stuck in our bodies (to get rid of PTSD for example, as the fear happens).

Much of the other parts of dances seems to be for grounding and some for meditating of course, others for taking in energy. I wish we could talk to the dancer to ask them what is the impact.

============

Greybeard, I totally agree with your last post here.

the diagram on the floor is interesting as well.

Interesting about fear and shaking...I am off to try a full body shake in the morning sun now, just hope the neighbors curtains aren't twitching..:)

The diagram on the floor is, I believe, the symbol of the Sarmoun Brotherhood..

http://vlepage.newteam.org/wings_trans.gif

[greybeard]

Either you believe that there is nothing but consciousness (God) as attested to by the Self realized and that God is love and that you are That ("I am That" by Nasardadatta worth a read)
Or you believe the horror stories.
Anything that promotes fear is not of God.
Bearing in mind that this is Maya --the play of consciousness.
Nothing to fear but fear.

So that is my understanding pueblo

Chris

Thanks for that. I understand (on one level) when you say there is nothing to fear but fear. Fear is a useless emotion, I have always thought that the opposite of love is not hate, but fear.

That being said it does not necessarily follow that there is nothing negative that can cause harm (in a spiritual sense). I can face the lion without fear though I may still get eaten by the lion.

I have always had an innate sense that nothing can really go wrong for us here, that we are playing out a cosmic drama and that the One is all there really is and everything reduces down (or ascends) to this eventually....

So...does it matter if we get eaten by the lion or not? Does it only matter whether or not we fear the lion? or if we do not defeat the lion are we in real spiritual danger?

I hope you can get some sense of what I am getting at, words are so ineffective (in some hands!)

Yes its levels of perception pueblo.
Here and now it makes sense to be aware that it is foolish to walk in front of a bus shouting "Nothing can harm me"
In the ultimate sense nothing can harm what you are--you are eternal and changeless.
The body and mind is your transport through this world-it needs taken care of.
The Body/mind eventually dies the in-dweller --thats you, departs--The wave subsides into the ocean but is still very much aware--death of Self is not a possibility.

It amazes me that people talk of the entities out to get, us feed on us, and then say that these entities feed on fear.
Boy they are then through promoting fear are doing a great job of feeding these(non existent) beings.
Imagination is a marvellous thing and can find proof for anything in this cosmic dream.
We are the dreamers and the dreamed.
This is why there is the term "wake up" to spiritually awake is to be enlightened.
Enlightenment is removal of ignorance--the ignorance being that we think we are completely separate from the Divine.
Without the divine energy coursing through our veins there would be no life whatsoever.
Whats to fear?
The lion may get fed that's the way it is here but we continue regardless.
Christ said " Be in this world but not of it--wear the world like a loose garment"
It is all levels of energy--dance-whirling dervish, a good thing to raise "personal" energy

Chris

[pueblo]

Reading In Search of the Miraculous Ouspensky quotes Gurdjieff as saying (paraphrasing here) that laughter is the result of an instant and simultaneous 'yes' and 'no'..and the more I thought about it the more it seemed to resonate with me.

The simultaneous 'yes and no' reminded me of a quote by F Scott Fitzgerald, "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

The inability to function when faced with two opposing views produces cognitive dissonance.

Is laughter then just a type of physical cognitive dissonance?

Also, Gurdjieff's 'yes and no' theory of laughter mirrors the action of modern quantum computers that have the ability to go beyond binary law and now a qubit (a bit of quantum data) can be both a 1 and a 0 at the same time.

Perhaps there is a quantum/laughter connection? :)

[sms]

(...)Also, Gurdjieff's 'yes and no' theory of laughter mirrors the action of modern quantum computers that have the ability to go beyond binary law and now a qubit (a bit of quantum data) can be both a 1 and a 0 at the same time.(...)

Or, we could talk about a virtual reality simulation, where we would be just characters “externally influenced” by somebody/something, while having an impression of an independence, as expressed in the conversation between Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, somewhere during the WW1 from the book - In the Search of the Miraculous


“Have you ever thought about the fact that all peoples themselves are machines?”

“Yes,” I said, “from the strictly scientific point of view all people are machines governed by external influences. But the question is, can the scientific point of view be wholly accepted?”

“Scientific or not scientific is all the same to me,” said G. “I want you to understand what I am saying. Look, all those people you see,” he pointed along the street, “are simply machines—nothing more.”

“I think I understand what you mean,” I said. “And I have often thought how little there is in the world that can stand against this form of mechanization and choose its own path.”

“This is just where you make your greatest mistake,” said G. “You think there is something that chooses its own path, something that can stand against mechanization; you think that not everything is equally mechanical.”

“Why, of course not!” I said. “Art, poetry, thought, are phenomena of quite a different order.”
“Of exactly the same order,” said G. “These activities are just as mechanical as everything else. Men are machines and nothing but mechanical actions can be expected of machines.”

“Very well,” I said. “But are there no people who are not machines?”

“It may be that there are,” said G., “only not those people you see. And you do not know them. That is what I want you to understand.”

I thought it rather strange that he should be so insistent on this point. What he said seemed to me obvious and incontestable. At the same time, I had never liked such short and all-embracing metaphors. They always omitted points of difference. I, on the other hand, had always maintained differences were the most important thing and that in order to understand things it was first necessary to see the points in which they differed. So I felt that it was odd that G. insisted on an idea which seemed to be obvious provided it were not made too absolute and exceptions were admitted.

“People are so unlike one another,” I said. “I do not think it would be possible to bring them all under the same heading. There are savages, there are mechanized people, there are intellectual people, there are geniuses.”

“Quite right,” said G., “people are very unlike one another, but the real difference between people you do not know and cannot see. The difference of which you speak simply does not exist. This must be understood. All the people you see, all the people you know, all the people you may get to know, are machines, actual machines working solely under the power of external influences, as you yourself said. Machines they are born and machines they die. How do savages and intellectuals come into this? Even now, at this very moment, while we are talking, several millions of machines are trying to annihilate one another. What is the difference between them? Where are the savages and where are the intellectuals? They are all alike . . .

“But there is a possibility of ceasing to be a machine. It is of this we must think …”

What was said above may sound a bit offensive to the machines, however, allegedly, if a machine contemplates the issue and works on itself for a while, it may realise that it was true!?

[greybeard]

Hi sms
Whilst I dont like the word machines--its different language for what mystics say--ie "You are not the doer--events happen deeds are done but there is no individual doer there of"
Jesus said it clearly " Of my self I do nothing it is the Father within"

It would seem that is the play of the One consciousness and you/we are that.
Consciousness takes on a condensed restricted role,-- the un-manifest becomes manifest.
Then seeming life times to discover its true identity---ie Self realization.
The intellect does not want to get this--an insult to the seeming individual persons--the ego.
The ego creates the war--friction--specialness --to prove and strengthen its seeming separation from the Truth which is One without a second. As in Advaita teachings of old.

Thanks for your post sms

Chris

[sms]

Hi greaybeard,

of course, we need to consider the time when something was expressed, as the terminology was diferrent. Gurdjieff was using the term “machine”, while some non-gnostic sources, like the investigator of paranormal phenomena, John Keel, was using a more contemporary term: “bio-chemical robot”.


”You and I are biochemical robots controlled by the powerful radiations being broadcast from the Eighth Tower [supercomputer]. Our brains are programmed like computers, and many of us are suddenly and completely reprogrammed at some point in our adult life. At birth our entire lives are planned for us, and as we weave and totter through our allotted three score and ten, we find ourselves manipulated by ‘luck’, by strange coincidences, and by sudden changes in ourselves and our environment.

Visualize a mad scientist who needs someone to clean out his secret laboratory in his castle on a forbidding mountaintop.

He constructs a mechanical robot for the job and programs it so it can move freely within the lab, but if it should open the door and try to move out of the laboratory, it is programmed to self-destruct.

The robot calls it slavery. We call it free will. We are free to pursue our life in our own way so long as we conform to the hidden master plan. If we try to circumvent that plan by zigging instead of zagging, we self-destruct.”

We are biochemical robots helplessly controlled by forces that can scramble our brains, destroy our memories and use us in any way they see fit. They have been doing it to us forever. We are caught up in a poker game being played with marked cards. Yet, in the closing years of this century, we are like the inveterate gambler who, when informed that the game is crooked, shrugs and says, “I know… but it’s the only game in town”!

(…)

All of our beads are wired to a central switchboard [supercomputer]. That switchboard is the only God and the only reality. Illusions and delusions are piped down from it to further confound our perception of reality.”

(…)

We are now nearing the end of a cosmic cycle, however, and our ultimate fate is becoming more and more obvious. We have been programmed well, but the Eighth Tower is dying of old age. The manifestations around us are not the work of the gods but of a senile machine playing out the end game.”

Source: The Cosmic Questin of the Eighth Tower (http://galaksija.com/literatura/eigth_tower.pdf)

Carlos Castenda used the term – “foreign installations” (book: Active Side of Infinity)

Charles Forte called us – “puppets, externally controlled by a puppet master.”

In some stories, we were simply called – Pinocchios (of course, it would never come to a mind of a reader, that he was the one who was “pinocchio”).

Furthermore, what was called in the Eastern Gnosis: “The General Law” (“which controls everything and everybody”), has all the features of an AI.

The following pictures describes the situation in the field, as per the Fourth Way Teaching (Ouspensky and Gurdjieff) and the Fifth Way Teaching (Boris Mouravieff), which both belong to the Eastern Gnosis and the only difference between them was in the approach (a group vs individual).

https://galaksija.com/images/situation.jpg

https://galaksija.com/images/situation-1.jpg

https://i1.wp.com/galaksija.com/images/situation-2.jpg

In the “reality below the line”, everything would be false, including us, as personalities with our names, surnames (and user names), inhabiting human bodies. Would we call us as the entities who reside in the reality below the line: the “machines”, “bio-chemical robots”, “puppets”, “computer simulation characters” etc., it would not matter.

The only real thing in this reality, would be, so called, “B-influences”, which are coming from the Real I, a component of adamic human beings, which is connected to the True Consciousness. The Eastern gnostics were saying that it was possible to turn our illusory and controlled existence into an objective one, through our connection with the Real I.

The enlightenment as a spiritual achievement and the awakening in the eastern gnostic sense, would not have anything in common. One could even say that the eastern gnosis would be something opposite of what we call the spirituality. The gnostic awakening is about coming out of the illusion, while the spirituality is about advancing towards higher levels of the illusion/maya/stereoma/matrix/virtual reality...

..

[pueblo]

^^^ I agree and it's interesting that the General Law has so many characteristics in common with A.I.

[petra]

Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.

I know what you mean about things happening naturally and there is truth in this to a certain extent only imo... Gurdjieff would say that it is impossible (or next to impossible) for man to awaken by himself... he states that a man is unable to do anything, to know anything or be anything until he realises first he can do nothing, know nothing nor be anything by his own volition.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.

Therein lies the rub. How to proceed without self delusion?

Fake it till you make it?



Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

TomKat you're really making me laugh, it's hard to see the words! *pause*

BIG difference, yes! I feel bad for Jesus. When I try to imagine 'what would Jesus do' and the answer is always 'probably suffer...' it gets kind of depressing! I'm not trying to be like Jesus - I'm trying to "Be Myself". "Personal Oblivion" sounds more humble to me, and I guess I prefer my way to be "the humble way".

Here comes a movie reference.... I guess I just find it easier to communicate my thoughts this way. In the "See No Evil - Hear No Evil" movie, one guy is blind, and one guy is deaf. "Deaf guy" misses out on things because he's deaf, and likewise with "blind guy". Neither of them is getting the full picture. That's relevant because I can use it like a metaphor. Maybe we're all a bit blind, or a bit deaf, figuratively speaking.

[greybeard]

Yes but self knowledge is not about the personal "me" its about the true Self as in Self Realization
The mystics of to day are speaking about coming out of the illusion --that no improvement of the eternal Self is necessary or even possible.
You are perfect now in your true Self.
improving the little self the me will in no way change the fact that your are part of the illusion whilst in the belief that you are a separate individual.

"Spiritual" teaching are miss-leading--Ive spent years daily reading, watching videos, meditating etc.
No enlightened master claims that they became enlightened through their own efforts.
The end result is egoless--the ego being a separation device.
Ramesh Balsekar said " God gave you an ego--let Him remove it"
You cant earn enlightenment which just means removal of ignorance--the ignorance being that you are separate--
People think being spiritual is being kind to others and a host of other positive thing.
All part of the illusion
Kindness happens, everything just happens, consciousness at play. --its not down to the choice of the seeming individual--everything just happens--which is what I think Gurdjieff was pointing to.

Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

Mystics are also described as biasing towards imaginative speculation, whereas whole selves would also be objective mental selves, who have actually verified what they know and also this would imply objective emotionality and objective physicality, all to comprise a whole, balanced self. Going beyond a latent make believe state like the astral. This goes beyond Gurdjieff's way, but retains a practicality, which I believe I read in it, (as of 1976 or so for me).

From reading his stuff, Gurdjieff seemed to balance more with his objectivity and self work. Herein lies the essentiality of east-west eclecticism, (the importance of balancing the best of both worlds).

[greybeard]

Who ever describes the mystics as being biased has not a clue what enlightenment is.
Being biased or imaginative is a function of the unenlightened.
Thoughtless awareness come close as a description.
One without a second--no subject nor object --nothing to speculate about .
Just an awareness of what is without any judgment.

People will be fed up with me saying this but Tim's thread gives a very clear pointer to what enlightenment is.

There is no one left to claim enlightenment.

A joke.
At the annual get together of the enlightened no one turned up.

Chris

[shijo]

Who ever describes the mystics as being biased has not a clue what enlightenment is.
Being biased or imaginative is a function of the unenlightened.
Thoughtless awareness come close as a description.
One without a second--no subject nor object --nothing to speculate about .
Just an awareness of what is without any judgment.

People will be fed up with me saying this but Tim's thread gives a very clear pointer to what enlightenment is.

There is no one left to claim enlightenment.

A joke.
At the annual get together of the enlightened no one turned up.

Chris

No one turned up Chris because there was no booze there.

[greybeard]

Who ever describes the mystics as being biased has not a clue what enlightenment is.
Being biased or imaginative is a function of the unenlightened.
Thoughtless awareness come close as a description.
One without a second--no subject nor object --nothing to speculate about .
Just an awareness of what is without any judgment.

People will be fed up with me saying this but Tim's thread gives a very clear pointer to what enlightenment is.

There is no one left to claim enlightenment.

A joke.
At the annual get together of the enlightened no one turned up.

Chris

No one turned up Chris because there was no booze there.

You noticed!!!
Smiling

[greybeard]

"Right" action happens--compassion and love flows.
There seems to be an acceleration of awakening.
Conscious TV and Buddha at the Gas interviews of which there are many, point to this

What applied yesterday no longer seems the case.
Without invalidating teachers of the past--it seems to be a new era.
There is the possibility of interacting communicating, have questions answered by the Self realized--here and now.
This is an amazing time.
No longer the need to spend time in a monastery --ashram --cave in the Himalayas--be of some order--to be Self realized.
The intellect does not get this.
There must be a complex way of getting there!!
There is no path--there is no distance- what you are is within.
There may have to be the process of neity neity --not this no this--or self inquiry--but there can also be spontaneous awakening.

Best wishes
Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

Chris

At least for my ear, coming through a rounded variety of ~isms, ~ologies, writers, practices, seeking and even the “new age merchants”, the words mystics and enlightenment bear notable variances of deeper meaning. The evidence is primarily due the phenomena of popularity, which soon is soon preyed upon by the human predicament of making money or accumulating popularity, whether a larger organization or as a humble one who gets the most ‘likes’.

Gurdjieff used word(s) something like “wise acre” even in the verb form, for his descriptions of human folly and to emphasize that this state must be recognized as a first step. As this thread is on the behalf of Gurdjieff, can we ask for Gurdjieff references, on the word mystic? I recall much more his effort to wake up people to work upon them selves, as a continued starting point.

Looking at contemporary examples, of this east-west melding… Theosophy took a nose dive with advocates favoring very diverse, interpretations and some broke away to find their own followings. The deeper we look, the more can be seen. Yet i see much stronger favor for the massaging of emotional-selves, for comforts which may not even be ‘unity’. Hence the concept of artistic-poetic imagination, can politely fit, the mystic enlightenment of an emotional nature. While the word unity can elsewhere mean consciousness as a development, to take us beyond the human stage, in contrast to widening the emotional-astral worlds, which include traditions and heavens of bliss, etc…

Yes there is much to explain here, by better writers, than am i. These would explain at great length, a use of a focal point, in exercises, including the example of Gurdjieff’s works, for balancing our way, out of the human zeitgeist or maya. The balance is important, so as not to remain stuck in emotionality, so that we may better develop the causal self. Where meanings do not necessarily flow out of words alone, but practice and physical-self balance are also engaged simultaneously.

~Bo

[greybeard]

Oh yes I agree that there are those who mistake an experience of enlightenment for the real thing and those who see a gravy train.
However as said there is the likes of Ramana Maharshi who at the tender age of fifteen had a spontaneous awakening.
Is the account by Tim to be ignored, dismissed?
Im not ignoring the work of Gurdjieff, nor discounting it, but a different era--I am only interested in Truth.
Not my thoughts on it--but as recounted by the Self Realized of today.
I appreciate this is a Gurdjieff thread but several time the original poster looked for an answer to post of mine.
We may not be on the same page but we are of the same heart wavydome.

Best wishes Chris

[greybeard]

Another thought.
There are books explaining what Gurdjieff meant no doubt.
There are books on what Ramana said and meant --all translated from a different language.
Here and now we have Mooji and many others on video answering questions from the audience.
No explanation necessary from others.
If a person does not understand what is said Mooji patiently clarify's as do others.
Now that suits me and is convincing, along with personal experiences in meditation.
Its up to the seeming individual to find truth through the mine field of miss-information and the new age stories.
That may well be through the teaching passed down attributed to, or written by Gurdjieff

Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

Thanks for the heartfelt bonding, herewith returned.

To dismiss or not to dismiss is not my stand,
but rather that we were both engaged
to reveal our widely differing findings,
on the deeper matters, involving us as beings.

Emotionality has been indicated
as man’s chief obstacle to higher consciousness,
because it is usually so perpetually unbalanced,
in what passes for civilization and human imagination,
in the latent realms of creation, (including the astral)
and apparently in all fields of human consciousness.

Objectivity applies well outside of ‘intellectuality’
and much more to the point of individuals
mastering the balanced human state,
to a full completion,
rather than perpetually reincarnating
or taking sabbaticals in the astral.

I experienced enough of this stuff, merely
to report to other people what i found.
I avoided beliefs from a young age
and learned to simply acknowledge
that a beliefs exists and without obligation.
Yes i did always hear of many advanced humans,
report many kinds of findings, we are free to choose,
but need not believe in the expressed meanings.

Just another wave from my dome :)

[TomKat]

Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.

I know what you mean about things happening naturally and there is truth in this to a certain extent only imo... Gurdjieff would say that it is impossible (or next to impossible) for man to awaken by himself... he states that a man is unable to do anything, to know anything or be anything until he realises first he can do nothing, know nothing nor be anything by his own volition.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.

Therein lies the rub. How to proceed without self delusion?

Fake it till you make it?



Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

TomKat you're really making me laugh, it's hard to see the words! *pause*

BIG difference, yes! I feel bad for Jesus. When I try to imagine 'what would Jesus do' and the answer is always 'probably suffer...' it gets kind of depressing! I'm not trying to be like Jesus - I'm trying to "Be Myself". "Personal Oblivion" sounds more humble to me, and I guess I prefer my way to be "the humble way".

Here comes a movie reference.... I guess I just find it easier to communicate my thoughts this way. In the "See No Evil - Hear No Evil" movie, one guy is blind, and one guy is deaf. "Deaf guy" misses out on things because he's deaf, and likewise with "blind guy". Neither of them is getting the full picture. That's relevant because I can use it like a metaphor. Maybe we're all a bit blind, or a bit deaf, figuratively speaking.

Well I'm not really aware that Siddhartha had much of a technique for achieving Nirvana, anyway. So perhaps it falls under the category of a mental construct?
I suspect Gurdjieff and Jesus were more interested in the actual energy structure of your etheric/soul body. Not what you THINK you are but what you actually are, energy-wise. For your body to be full of light something that is NOT light would have to be vacated from the body. That seems more like spiritual hygiene than enlightenment.
To do is to be, Nietzsche, To be is to do, Frohm, do be do be do, Sinatra

[sms]

I find the 4th Way (and the 5th Way (https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_autor_mouravieff.htm)) teaching or the Eastern gnosis as unique, because the concept expressed there implies that we, as personalities in human bodies, were artificial or non-objective, as well as the reality we inhabit, yet in this artificial reality, there was “something true”, which is hard to perceive for us, because of our non-objective perception. As such, we would be able to rationalise anything, but to understand nothing of true importance or essence. Now, where the problem is, if it was a true information, how its source would expect that artificial entities (“machines”, ”bio-chemical robots”) like us, could understand it appropriately?! It looks impossible!? What would be the point of presenting such an information to artificial or non-objective entities, like us?! If we would receive such an information in our illusory lives, we could only distort it or spin it, so that it could not jeopardise foundations of our illusory existence.

For an example, in his book Active Side of Infinity, Castaneda told us that we were “foreign installations in human bodies”. As, such, we were “extensions” of a “non-organic intelligence” (an AI?!; acting like its “proxy-servers” in charge of human physical bodies), which would mean, controlled entities existing in a controlled reality. Here, the question is, again, why Castenda has presented this information, if he knew that the readers of his book will be, nobody else, but – “foreign installations”?!?

There are other non-gnostic sources which were not “enlightened” in the sense of the matrix-spirituality, but which have made similar observations based on an ability to look at the reality without a bias (which is a pretty rare case). Most of those sources would be usually unknown to spiritually advanced persons, but the information coming from them are still available. One of the examples would be Barbara Bartholic, who made the following observations:


We are confronted and confounded by an intelligence that has the ability to:

• vacuum a car and its occupants right off the roadway and go unnoticed by all;
• enter human minds or habitats day or night;
• interfere with babies still in the womb;
• abduct young children right from their beds or playgrounds undetected;
• change the dynamics of relationships and love affairs;
• cause disease;
• create mental problems and drug addiction;
• create wars and mutate generations…

Source (http://www.whale.to/b/bartholic.html)
Furthermore, she was also saying that we were living in a sort of a NINTENDO game (virtual reality or a computer simulation?!); and, that the same intelligence, was behind “Mothers Theresas” and the serial killers or that the same intelligence was moving the black and white pieces across the chess board, so the the outcome of the game was always under its control. (Source (http://galaksija.com/literatura/b_bartholic.pdf))

(Similar observation was made by J. Keel in his book Operation Trojan Horse, in terms that we take a part in a game which was crooked, and nobody wants to know that.)

So, in the false reality below the line where we exist (shown at the above picture), a false dualism would reign, where the good guys and the bad guys, the forces of light and the forces of darkness, would be under control of the same entity, which would play god and satan, simultaneously. And, it could not be otherwise.

At the end, another question remains, - is it really possible to get out of the “crooked game” (for those interested), as implied in the eastern gnosis, or not?!

...

[petra]

Well I'm not really aware that Siddhartha had much of a technique for achieving Nirvana, anyway. So perhaps it falls under the category of a mental construct?


I don't know about Nirvana... maybe. I'm thinking more towards enlightenment and understanding as opposed to bliss or whatever Nirvana is supposed to mean. I've never read or listened Gurdjieff, but if he's half as funny as some of his pupils (like Ouspensky), I imagine he was a great teacher. Learning should be fun, I really think so. I've always thought this "enlightenment business" seemed like an inordinate amount of work, but maybe that's just because I am so far behind!



To do is to be, Nietzsche, To be is to do, Frohm, do be do be do, Sinatra

Is it a coincidence he wrote "My Way" and we're here talking about the 4th way? :) EDIT: And 5th apparently!
That song has special deep meaning for me, I'd like that to be the last song I ever hear before I leave this earth.

[pueblo]

It seems we are currently in one of these periods of great decline (culture/civilization) which provides great opportunity for true learning.

Now, if I could only remember myself for more than a milisecond at a time...




“There are periods in the life of humanity, which generally coincide with the beginning of the fall of cultures and civilizations, when the masses irretrievably lose their reason and begin to destroy everything that has been created by centuries and millenniums of culture.

Such periods of mass madness, often coinciding with geological cataclysms, climatic changes, and similar phenomena of a planetary character, release a very great quantity of the matter of knowledge.

This, in its turn, necessitates the work of collecting this matter of knowledge which would otherwise be lost. Thus the work of collecting scattered matter of knowledge frequently coincides with the beginning of the destruction and fall of cultures and civilizations.”

From In Search of the Miraculous (p.45)

[greybeard]

There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

[pueblo]

There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

Hmm...that's the Freemason's motto, right? Ordo Ab Chao..?

[greybeard]

There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

Hmm...that's the Freemason's motto, right? Ordo Ab Chao..?


Thanks. I did not know that--it was just an observation.
Chris

[pueblo]

There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

Hmm...that's the Freemason's motto, right? Ordo Ab Chao..?


Thanks. I did not know that--it was just an observation.
Chris

Sure, I wasn't casting any aspersions by the way...

The motto is of course true, but it is also a blueprint for bringing about (or solidifying) the globalist plan for a NWO....purposely creating chaos to facilitate the introduction of 'their' NWO....

I know that the new order you speak of is a totally different animal :)

[greybeard]

Yes Peublo
I could have worded "new order better perhaps"
As in "Out of chaos comes order"
Never occurred to me that you meant other than what you said.

Great thread Pueblo
Thanks
Chris

[petra]

There must be chaos before there is new order.

I think there's order in chaos, and I boil that down to the Law of Averages. I get the point though, the way it used to be put to me is "The darkness needs to rise to the surface before it can be destroyed", and I do believe that.

[pueblo]

In people's opinion would the Fourth Way be considered as service to self?

What about the way of the obyvatel?


The obyvatel is defined as a good person living in accord with his own conscience, who is evolving, usually slowly, yet sometimes faster than a yogi or monk, without the need for a particular teaching.

The obyvatel knows that 'things do themselves' therefore he is not deceived by people who live in fantasy, whether these fantasies are to do with politics or 'Ways". The Russian word obyvatel means 'inhabitant' but it is used wrongly in a contemptuous way by people who, because they are interested in 'Ways' look down on the obyvatel.

Gurdjieff stresses that not all obyvatels are people of the Objective Way, some are 'thieves, rascals and fools': however, 'the ability to orientate oneself in life is a very useful quality from the point of view of the work'. No-one can embark on a 'Way' who has not attained the level of obyvatel - ie. someone who has the ability to support at least 20 people from his own labour.

Gurdjieff: The Key Concepts By Sophia Wellbeloved


I think many of us have come across people who seem to have a natural. organic 'knowing', a wisdom that is not expressed in philosophical concepts or ideas. It seems innate and perhaps this is the result of a life lived in the way of the obyvatel?



“It often seems to people of the ‘way,’ that is, of the subjective way, especially those who are just beginning, that other people, that is, people of the objective way, are not moving. But this is a great mistake. A simple obyvatel may sometimes do such work within him that he will overtake another, a monk or even a yogi.

Obyvatel is a strange word in the Russian language. It is used in the sense of ‘inhabitant,’ without any particular shade. At the same time it is used to express contempt or derision--’obyvatel’--as though there could be nothing worse. But those who speak in this way do not understand that the obyvatel is the healthy kernel of life.

And from the point of view of the possibility of evolution, a good obyvatel has many more chances than a ‘lunatic’ or a ‘tramp.’ Afterwards I will perhaps explain what I mean by these two words.

In the meantime we will talk about the obyvatel. I do not at all wish to say that all obyvatels are people of the objective way. Nothing of the kind. Among them are thieves, rascals, and fools; but there are others. I merely wish to say that being a good obyvatel by itself does not hinder the ‘way.’ And finally there are different types of obyvatel.

Imagine, for example, the type of obyvatel who lives all his life just as the other people around him, conspicuous in nothing, perhaps a good master, who makes money, and is perhaps even close-fisted. At the same time he dreams all his life of monasteries, for instance, and dreams that some time or other he will leave everything and go into a monastery.

And such things happen in the East and in Russia. A man lives and works, then, when his children or his grandchildren are grown up, he gives everything to them and goes into a monastery. This is the obyvatel of which I speak. Perhaps he does not go into a monastery, perhaps he does not need this. His own life as an obyvatel can be his way.

In Search of the Miraculous - Ouspensky P. 369


My focus for now will be in trying to obtain the level of a good obyvatel. Perhaps this way is a middle way between service to self and service to others?

[aoibhghaire]

It seems that there are key(s) given down to persons over time. My understanding in this case Gurdjieff had passed it down to Ouspensky in France, then Blake in the UK and then MacSharry in Scotland.

You may ask who is MacSharry? I didn’t know myself until I got an invitation from him to meet in Edinburgh in 1997. I met MacSharry and other participants whom had traveled from different parts of Europe. It was a closed session, not a workshop, but a meaningful experience over 3 days. MacSharry hasn’t written anything down in normal conventions, like a book, but expresses his writing in real time a different form, it’s more of an experience of just listening to him. He doesn’t give workshops. He just has a network of friends that are familiar with Gurdjieff/ Ouspensky writings and practice.

I was told that MacSharry had taken the next phase on, going beyond Gurdjieff/ Ouspensky/Blake to a higher level which was expressed in mathematical/symbology. At the time I didn’t fully understand this process of expression. Since then i never followed though with any other meet ups. For what it is worth I pass this on.

[NX.P]

I think many of us have come across people who seem to have a natural. organic 'knowing', a wisdom that is not expressed in philosophical concepts or ideas.

UEe2pN8oksc


G. I. Gurdjieff:
"It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour."

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

[greybeard]

Where I have a challenge is that regardless of the teacher the followers will expand and make the original teaching complex.


G. I. Gurdjieff:
"It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour."

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

For me its clear enough--the me the person is always changing the "Self" does not.
Every enlightened teacher says "Be still be quiet" that's all that's needed.

Christ " Be still and know that I am"
The suggestion of Ramana Maharshi. find the Self --his aid to this "Self Inquiry"

Chris

[pueblo]

I think many of us have come across people who seem to have a natural. organic 'knowing', a wisdom that is not expressed in philosophical concepts or ideas.

UEe2pN8oksc


G. I. Gurdjieff:
"It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour."

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

Seinfeld's day guy/night guy is funny because it's true.

Self remembering for me is bewildering, never quite sure who is trying to do the remembering or who it is being remembered.

I have long been aware though of the multitude of 'I's inside, not sure I would even recognize myself now even I did happen to accidentally remember him.

[greybeard]

Hi Pueblo
There is only one I-- lots of ever cchanging me's though,
I is the silent awareness--eternal and unchanged by the ups and downs of life.
It is the witness of all including what "me" gets up to.
On enlightenment this separate me is transcended--no agenda ego less.

Chris

[pueblo]

Hi Pueblo
There is only one I-- lots of ever cchanging me's though,
I is the silent awareness--eternal and unchanged by the ups and downs of life.
It is the witness of all including what "me" gets up to.
On enlightenment this separate me is transcended--no agenda ego less.

Chris

Yes, though sometimes the ever changing 'me's like to pretend they are the one I....MPD (multiple personality disorder)?

[Hendog]

qfNtPbHkp0U

Never thought about this subject before until I stumbled upon it here at Project Avalon
then shortly after I heard Gurdjieff and Jesu mentioned in this song.

[Shadowman]

At the end, another question remains, - is it really possible to get out of the “crooked game” (for those interested), as implied in the eastern gnosis, or not?!

...

Hi sms,

That "I" which seeks to know, that "I" which asks the question, that which believes itself to to be caught up in the "crooked game" - is that which obscures the absolute truth.

In reality "The Goose is already out" - it never was actually "in" the game. But from the point of the dreamer this absolute "viewpoint" may seem unhelpful.

So teachers sometimes make concessions...

CAN AN ENLIGHTENED PERSON BE WRONG? THIS REFERS TO WHAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT
J. KRISHNAMURTI, WHO KEEPS ON SAYING THAT ONE DOES NOT NEED A MASTER, WHICH
IS ACTUALLY NOT RIGHT PLEASE COMMENT.

Prem Pantha,

AN ENLIGHTENED person can never be wrong. Neither J. Krishnamurti is wrong, but he never
considers the situation in which you are. He considers only the space in which he is, and that
freedom is part of enlightenment.

The enlightened person has reached the highest peak of consciousness; his abode is on Everest.
Now it is his freedom to speak according to the peak, the sunlit peak where he is, or to consider
the people who are still in the dark valley, who know nothing about the light, for whom the peak
of the Everest is only a dream, only a perhaps”. This is the freedom of the enlightened person.
Krishnamurti speaks in terms where he is.

I speak in terms where you are, I consider you, because if I am speaking to you, you have to be
taken in consideration. I have to lead you towards the highest peak, but the journey will begin in the
dark valley, in your unconsciousness. If I talk about my experience, absolutely inconsiderate of you,
I am right, but I am not useful to you.

An enlightened person is never wrong, but he can be useful or he can be useless.

J. Krishnamurti is useless! He is perfectly right; about that there is no question, because I know the
peak and what he is saying is certainly true – from the vision of the peak. Those who have arrived,
for them the journey becomes almost a dream phenomenon. For those who have not arrived the
journey is real, the goal is just a dream. They are living in two different worlds. When you are talking
to a madman you have to consider him; if you don’t consider him you cannot help him.

Once a madman was brought to me. He had this crazy idea that one afternoon when he was
sleeping, a fly has entered his mouth. And because he used to sleep with open mouth, nobody can
deny the possibility. And since then he was very much disturbed because the fly was roaming inside
him, jumping inside him, moving in his belly, going to his bladder, circulating in his bloodstream,
sometimes in his head, sometimes in his feet. And of course he could not do anything because he
was continuously occupied, obsessed with the fly.

He was taken to the psychoanalysts and they said, ”This is just in your mind – there is no fly! And
no fly can move in your bloodstream, there is no possibility. Even if a fly has entered it must have
died! And now six months have passed; it cannot be alive inside you.”

He listened, but he could not believe it because his experience was far more solid. He was taken
to the doctors and everybody examined him and they did everything, but finally they will say, ”It is
just a mental thing. You are imagining.” He will listen what they were saying, but he could not trust
because his experience was far more certain than their words.

His family brought him to me as a last resort. The man was looking very tired because he was being
taken to one person, then to another, then all kinds of physicians – allopaths and homeopaths and
naturopaths – and he was really tired. In the first place the fly was tiring him, and now all these
”pathies”, medicines. And everybody was insulting him – that was his feeling, that they were saying
that he was just imagining. Is he a fool or he is mad, that he will imagine such a thing? They were
all humiliating him – that was his feeling.

I looked at the man and I said, ”It is so clear that the fly is inside!”

For a moment he was puzzled. He could not believe me, because nobody has said that to him –
because nobody has considered him. And they ALL were right and I was wrong – there was no fly,
but the madman has to be considered.

And I said, ”All those fools are just wasting your time; you should have come first here. It is such a
simple thing to bring the fly out; there is no need to bother. Medicines won’t help – you are not ill.
Psycholanalysis will not help – you are not crazy.”

And immediately he was a changed man! He looked at his wife and said, ”Now what do you say?
This is the right man,” he said, ”who really knows. And all those fools were trying to convince me
that there is no fly. It is there!”

I said to him that, ”It is simple – we will take it out. You lie down.”
I covered him with a blanket and told him to keep his eyes closed and ”I will do some mantra, some
magic, and we will bring the fly out. You just keep quiet so that the fly sits somewhere. Otherwise
the fly is continuously running – where to catch it?”
He said, ”That looks logical. I will keep absolutely still!”
And I said, ”Don’t open your eyes. Just remain silent, breathe slowly, so the fly settles somewhere,
so we can catch hold of it!
”
Then I rushed into the house to find a fly. It was a little bit difficult because for the first time I was
trying that, but finally I succeeded – I could get a fly in a bottle. And I came to the man, I moved my
hand on his body, and I asked him, ”Where the fly is?” And he said, ”In the belly.” And I touched the
belly and I said, ”Of course it is there!” And I convinced him that I perfectly believe in him and then I
uncovered his blanket and showed him the fly.

And he said to the wife, ”Now see! And give this bottle to me; I will go all to those fools and take all
the fees that they have taken from me! I have wasted thousands of rupees, and all that they did was
they told me I am mad! And now I don’t feel the fly anywhere, because it is in the bottle!”
He took the bottle, he went to the doctors.

One of the doctors who knew me, he came to see me. He said, ”How you managed? Six months
a fly can live in the body? And that man has taken his fee back from me, because he was making
such a fuss that I said, ’Better give it back to him!’ And he proved that he was right!”
I said, ”It is not the point who is right.”

Gautam the Buddha defines truth as ”that which works”. This is the ancientmost pragmatic definition
of truth: ”that which works”! All the devices are truth in this sense: they work; they are only devices.
The Buddha’s work is UPAYA; UPAYA exactly means device.

Meditation is an UPAYA, a device. It simply helps you to get rid of that which you have not got in the
first place – the fly: the ego, the misery, the anguish! It helps you to get free of it, but in fact it is not
there. But it is not to be told...

- I am That - Osho p99-101


So when you are ready to sacrifice everything to "remove the fly" find your nearest Egoholics Anonymous Meeting,
sit quietly and let the grass grow by itself. Relative knowledge may ripen a mango
but ultimately, when the time is right, it falls from the tree in silence (man go),

With Love/ In La'kech
tim

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