Re: This might be Trump’s boldest lie yet [Archive] - The Project Avalon Community Forum

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chancy

24th October 2018, 14:58

Hello Everyone:

I noticed something that is not very surprising but much to my surprise happened.
When I post the thread "This might be Trump’s boldest lie yet" I was posting it honestly and sincerely to EVERYONE. No the people who love trump and not for the people that know he lies all the time. I was simply posting to bring "truth" to the table.
By the time the I checked there were people arguing over how many lies has trump told? IF you counted them up for yourself instead of trying to get everyone else doing your bidding you would be very surprised. The problem is trump supporters are willing to overlook the lies and the non trump supporters see the lies for what they are.
You have to remember that this forum might be from the us of a BUT it's has a global reach. I see from my point of view that the members from the usa have much different views than people from Canada or England or anywhere else.

I think it's the situation where people from the usa are trying to by pass the lies and people from around the world are just posting the lies. No one likes to admit they are being swindled. I know I sure don't like my politicians swindling me BUT it happens on a day to day basis.

To be fair Paul shutting down a thread because there is controversy about a subject and where it leads the thread seems like censorship. I certainly don't agree but you are the moderator and that is your perogative
From what I am seeing lately on project avalon is there is a huge divide when it comes to politics.
A suggestion may be to only let people post if they are from the usa and all the rest of us can only observe the madness.
All the years I have observed and posted my fair share I thought this was a truth forum BUT lately it seems like the truth is being put on the side burner so people can feel the warm and fuzzy feelings of ignorance.
Good Luck All. Time will show us who is right and who is wrong
chancy

Daozen

24th October 2018, 16:56

TargeT

24th October 2018, 16:58

The problem is trump supporters are willing to overlook the lies and the non trump supporters see the lies for what they are.

So, just like every politician ever?

Why do people treat this like this presidency is different, it's not... it's just "now".

A suggestion may be to only let people post if they are from the usa and all the rest of us can only observe the madness.

Might be a good point, the "madness" you see is all from a very one sided media, the truth is not going to come from TV or news outlets; especially not in this MSM environment.

The reality is far different from what the pundants read on tv.

waves

24th October 2018, 17:12

I only read the beginnings of the other thread, don't know what rhetoric got closed, but would have liked to add that I totally disagree that you 'only wanted to bring truth to the table.'

There is a crystal clear pattern in the air these days - glaringly obvious to non-Trump haters and totally oblivious to Trump haters. There appears to be an obsession among Trump detractors that looks like some maddening feeling of obligation to jump on any chance whatsoever to get in another dig and make sure they take some moral stand as a member of the hater side.

Here's the problem. The haters are oblivious to the glaring hypocrisy of their obsession in two ways.

1. Would you also jump on any chance to point out something great he did and post a big positive titled thread about it? EFF NO. Haters are completely devoid of fairmindedness and their stomach turns at the thought of saying anything positive about Trump's actions - especially in front of friends. But there are there are MOUNTAINS of positive things he's done to also talk about - that if the previous presidents had done EXACTLY THE SAME would be positively spun headlines in the MSM for days. That's hypocrisy.

2. This 'jump on every chance to criticize' behavior glaringly ignores that the sudden worldful of 'paying such close attention to every detail super-analysts' NEVER did this with Clinton, either Bush or Obama who all had mountains and mountains of JUST THE SAME amount of things to criticize and nitpick. Was there ever a dumber figurehead than George W? That's hypocrisy.

onawah

24th October 2018, 18:45

Perhaps it's precisely because enough people have become aware enough by now to realize that with politics now there are ALWAYS plenty of things to criticize and nitpick, and the promises for change are, for the most part, empty. They change only what they can no longer easily get away with.
The reason the thread was closed may have had much more to do, as usual, with the WAY in which views were being expressed (sarcastically, insultingly ) than with the subject matter. Though the latter has already been worked to death, on a forum that is much more interesting, imho, when it's focusing on things other than what the mainstream is focused on, such as ETs, UFOs, & other more alternative subjects.

2. This 'jump on every chance to criticize' behavior glaringly ignores that the sudden worldful of 'paying such close attention to every detail super-analysts' NEVER did this with Clinton, either Bush or Obama who all had mountains and mountains of JUST THE SAME amount of things to criticize and nitpick. Was there ever a dumber figurehead than George W? That's hypocrisy.

drgreig

24th October 2018, 19:22

Life is short. Make sure you spend as much time as possible on the internet arguing with strangers about politics. :facepalm:

ThePythonicCow

24th October 2018, 19:38

The reason the thread was closed may have had much more to do, as usual, with the WAY in which views were being expressed (sarcastically, insultingly ) than with the subject matter.
Yes - it may have :).

This thread, discussing my closing of chancy's earlier thread, seems to be going along just fine in my personal view. Various people are presenting their various and diverse views clearly and cogently.

Ba-ba-Ra

24th October 2018, 20:04

Life is short. Make sure you spend as much time as possible on the internet arguing with strangers about politics. :facepalm:

Great reality check . . and gave me a good laugh!

A Voice from the Mountains

24th October 2018, 21:16

I thought the lockdown was unfair as well. Especially the way it was carried out. However, there were some fair points made:

- Posts need to be well formatted. A bullet point list of provable lies might be better than a wall of type.
- A title can be creative but less inflammatory.

Trump says stuff that isn't wholly accurate intentionally just to bait the media into reporting what he wants. He even admits this in Art of the Deal, and yet, as many have remarked upon for two years now, leftists don't seem to have ever read his book.

Typical Trump "lie" goes like this:

Trump: "Did you see what happened in Sweden the other night? Oh man, it's terrible. Sweden used to be one of the safest places in the world, now look at what's happened to it."

Media: "There is nothing happening in Sweden. Trump's insinuation that something bad happened recently in Sweden is a lie. Nothing has happened there in months."

(A week later in Sweden, a dozen Swedish women are gang raped and Muslim gangs are hacking each other in the streets with machetes.)

Media: "Meanwhile in the Arctic, all of the ice is melting and we'll all be underwater by 2025..."

A long-running campaign of this kind of "lying" has only served to destroy the media's credibility, rather than Trump's, who is polling more strongly than ever. Perhaps this is an intentional ploy, as I am describing, eh? Well nevermind, don't worry about it. We still have 2020 to go before we let all of our "secrets" out. :P

ExomatrixTV

24th October 2018, 22:03

How would we perceive any heated opinions for or against Trump when Alien Disclosure is 100% on MSM and You (and everyone else) are invited to go certain locations to meet The Landed Aliens? lol :P Everything is just perception often mixed with incompetence to make sense of it or to deal with it.

We seem to find things "SO IMPORTANT" because others say so?

ExomatrixTV

24th October 2018, 23:05

In a world of memes ... you hope that people will not be hypnotized by it ... memes can be very powerful when they are able to summarize something to the core correctly ... but still people have to use & practice OWN discernment-skills to check how much of any assumption is correct or false! ... It seems like more and more people become mentally, emotionally & spiritually lazy and want to be spoon-fed with memes as a form of "education". To me it seems all an hilarious development.

(https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/johnkuhles?source=feed_text)

A Voice from the Mountains

24th October 2018, 23:28

It seems like more and more people become mentally, emotionally & spiritually lazy and want to be spoon-fed with memes as a form of "education". To me it seems all an hilarious development.

You can't really be surprised, though, given the warnings for decades that our education system is in trouble, ever since the Department of Education was created in the 1970's. The same department which dictated Bush Jr.'s "no child left behind" policy to all schools across the nation, whereas Reagan promised to abolish that department and never followed through.

Anyway, the situation is what it is now. Most people don't make a habit of reading anything other than the headlines of news articles, if they even read that much. To condense information into something they can quickly understand in only a few seconds is necessary. If it starts a greater conversation that goes into greater detail, even better.

T Smith

25th October 2018, 00:43

I'm confused. I opened this thread expecting to be enlightened on Trump's boldest lie yet. Which is? What am I missing?

A Voice from the Mountains

25th October 2018, 01:03

I'm confused. I opened this thread expecting to be enlightened on Trump's boldest lie yet. Which is? What am I missing?

The "lie" that he is going to introduce a new tax bill later.

Apparently it was a lie because, apparently unbeknownst to leftists, we have something called a Congress and its rules had to be explained to them. Trump's announcement was thus a lie, because they weren't up to understanding basic government.

The original thread was shut down by Paul for being ridiculous. Others have said it should have stayed open, and I would have left it open myself, but then again, I'm one of those wild and crazy right-wingers.

T Smith

25th October 2018, 01:11

I'm confused. I opened this thread expecting to be enlightened on Trump's boldest lie yet. Which is? What am I missing?

The "lie" that he is going to introduce a new tax bill later.

Apparently it was a lie because, apparently unbeknownst to leftists, we have something called a Congress and its ruled had to be explained to them. Trump's announcement was thus a lie, because they weren't up to understanding basic government.

The original thread was shut down by Paul for being ridiculous. Others have said it should have stayed open, and I would have left it open myself, but then again, I'm one of those wild and crazy right-wingers.

Alrighty then. Thank you for clarifying.

I'll revisit this thread if/when somebody points out something of substance that Trump has lied about.

Carry on.

Daozen

25th October 2018, 02:40

Fellow Aspirant

25th October 2018, 02:46

I'm confused. I opened this thread expecting to be enlightened on Trump's boldest lie yet. Which is? What am I missing?

From an article in "Vox" on October 22nd (link below, emphases mine)

"Speaking with reporters in Nevada on Saturday, (20 October) Trump said he was working on a “very major tax cut for middle-income people.” He said the White House and congressional leaders are “studying very deeply, round the clock” to create another tax cut “not for business at all” that will be announced on November 1 or sooner. Axios was first to flag the remarks.

Trump continued the line on Monday, telling reporters he would lower middle-class taxes by 10 percent before the election.

Many observers noted that what he’s promising is basically impossible: Congress isn’t in session and won’t be until after voters head to the polls on November 6.

link: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/21/18005468/trump-tax-cut-middle-class-2-0

B.

A Voice from the Mountains

25th October 2018, 02:54

Oh.. the ol' "He's playing 9th dimensional chess" gambit. Yeah, I've heard this one, hahaha.

It might seem like "9th dimensional chess" to some people, but considering that he wrote about this tactic in his own words back in the 1980's, I don't see a real need for dramatic hyperbole, as if we are talking about rocket science or teleportation to Pluto.

The US steel plant inaccuracies seemed to be an example of him saying things that are flat out wrong.

This is how I can tell when people don't actually know what tariffs are, or how trade or capitalism in general work.

I don't need someone from corporate media to tell me what effect tariffs will have on trade, because I actually took ECON 101, and these aren't difficult concepts. I also realize, however, that lack of basic education on economics is how various forms of Marxism have been able to take as much of a hold as they already have, because Marxism and understanding basic economics are like oil and water, they do not mix.

Explain to me where the problem with this is:

China makes cheap steel. Very cheap steel. In fact, it's garbage, and fails much more often/sooner than it's supposed to. But be that as it may, because it's cheap, people looking to cut costs buy the cheaper communist steel rather than the more expensive free market steel produced in the United States.

Still with me so far?

Because people buy less of the more expensive steel made in the US, demand for US steel goes down. When demand for US steel goes down, so does the supply, ie the manufacturing of it. When less steel is manufactured in the US, they need less people employed making it. When less people are employed making it, it means people have to be laid off from work. That means more unemployment. And more dependency upon China for our industrial needs (steel in this case).

Still with me? If not, please let me know what is troubling about any of this, and we can talk about it in greater detail.

In order to combat (a) unemployment, and (b) our loss of national steel plants, which happen to be critical military infrastructure too btw, we need to rebuild our steel industry. How do you do that? By making it more expensive to buy Chinese steel, making Chinese steel less competitive in the United States. How do you make Chinese steel more expensive so that it can't compete with US steel domestically? By introducing tariffs which act as a tax on Chinese steel, raising its prices within our borders and making it prohibitively expensive for companies to purchase it.

Before you think this must be some new kind of voodoo economics, remember that tariffs are how the United States government made almost all of its revenue before the income tax was unconstitutionally introduced.

So what part of using tariffs to restore domestic industry is hard to understand?

Fellow Aspirant

25th October 2018, 03:07

Correction:

The First Year of Trump’s Lies

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

Sources: Politifact; Factcheck.org; The Washington Post Fact Checker; The Toronto Star

Jan. 21 “I wasn't a fan of Iraq. I didn't want to go into Iraq.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.)

Jan. 21 “A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.” (Trump was on the cover 11 times and Nixon appeared 55 times.)

Jan. 23 “Between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused me to lose the popular vote.” (There's no evidence of illegal voting.)

Jan. 25 “Now, the audience was the biggest ever. But this crowd was massive. Look how far back it goes. This crowd was massive.” (Official aerial photos show Obama's 2009 inauguration was much more heavily attended.)

Jan. 25 “Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)” (The report never mentioned voter fraud.)

Jan. 25 “You had millions of people that now aren't insured anymore.” (The real number is less than 1 million, according to the Urban Institute.)

Jan. 25 “So, look, when President Obama was there two weeks ago making a speech, very nice speech. Two people were shot and killed during his speech. You can't have that.” (There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.)

Jan. 26 “We've taken in tens of thousands of people. We know nothing about them. They can say they vet them. They didn't vet them. They have no papers. How can you vet somebody when you don't know anything about them and you have no papers? How do you vet them? You can't.” (Vetting lasts up to two years.)

Jan. 26 “I cut off hundreds of millions of dollars off one particular plane, hundreds of millions of dollars in a short period of time. It wasn't like I spent, like, weeks, hours, less than hours, and many, many hundreds of millions of dollars. And the plane's going to be better.” (Most of the cuts were already planned.)

Jan. 28 “The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers.” (It never apologized.)

Jan. 29 “The Cuban-Americans, I got 84 percent of that vote.” (There is no support for this.)

Jan. 30 “Only 109 people out of 325,000 were detained and held for questioning. Big problems at airports were caused by Delta computer outage.” (At least 746 people were detained and processed, and the Delta outage happened two days later.)

Feb. 3 “Professional anarchists, thugs and paid protesters are proving the point of the millions of people who voted to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!” (There is no evidence of paid protesters.)

Feb. 4 “After being forced to apologize for its bad and inaccurate coverage of me after winning the election, the FAKE NEWS @nytimes is still lost!” (It never apologized.)

Feb. 5 “We had 109 people out of hundreds of thousands of travelers and all we did was vet those people very, very carefully.” (About 60,000 people were affected.)

Feb. 6 “I have already saved more than $700 million when I got involved in the negotiation on the F-35.” (Much of the price drop was projected before Trump took office.)

Feb. 6 “It's gotten to a point where it is not even being reported. And in many cases, the very, very dishonest press doesn't want to report it.” (Terrorism has been reported on, often in detail.)

Feb. 6 “The failing @nytimes was forced to apologize to its subscribers for the poor reporting it did on my election win. Now they are worse!” (It didn't apologize.)

Feb. 6 “And the previous administration allowed it to happen because we shouldn't have been in Iraq, but we shouldn't have gotten out the way we got out. It created a vacuum, ISIS was formed.” (The group’s origins date to 2004.)

Feb. 7 “And yet the murder rate in our country is the highest it’s been in 47 years, right? Did you know that? Forty-seven years.” (It was higher in the 1980s and '90s.)

Feb. 7 “I saved more than $600 million. I got involved in negotiation on a fighter jet, the F-35.” (The Defense Department projected this price drop before Trump took office.)

Feb. 9 “Chris Cuomo, in his interview with Sen. Blumenthal, never asked him about his long-term lie about his brave ‘service’ in Vietnam. FAKE NEWS!” (It was part of Cuomo's first question.)

Feb. 9 “Sen. Richard Blumenthal now misrepresents what Judge Gorsuch told him?” (The Gorsuch comments were later corroborated.)

Feb. 10 “I don’t know about it. I haven’t seen it. What report is that?” (Trump knew about Flynn's actions for weeks.)

Feb. 12 “Just leaving Florida. Big crowds of enthusiastic supporters lining the road that the FAKE NEWS media refuses to mention. Very dishonest!” (The media did cover it.)

Feb. 16 “We got 306 because people came out and voted like they've never seen before so that's the way it goes. I guess it was the biggest Electoral College win since Ronald Reagan.” (George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama all won bigger margins in the Electoral College.)
Feb. 16 “That’s the other thing that was wrong with the travel ban. You had Delta with a massive problem with their computer system at the airports.” (Delta's problems happened two days later.)

Feb. 16 “Walmart announced it will create 10,000 jobs in the United States just this year because of our various plans and initiatives.” (The jobs are a result of its investment plans announced in Oct. 2016.)

Feb. 16 “When WikiLeaks, which I had nothing to do with, comes out and happens to give, they’re not giving classified information.” (Not always. They have released classified information in the past.)

Feb. 16 “We had a very smooth rollout of the travel ban. But we had a bad court. Got a bad decision.” (The rollout was chaotic.)

Feb. 16 “They’re giving stuff — what was said at an office about Hillary cheating on the debates. Which, by the way, nobody mentions. Nobody mentions that Hillary received the questions to the debates.” (It was widely covered.)

Feb. 18 “And there was no way to vet those people. There was no documentation. There was no nothing.” (Refugees receive multiple background checks, taking up to two years.)

Feb. 18 “You look at what's happening in Germany, you look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this?” (Trump implied there was a terror attack in Sweden, but there was no such attack.)

Feb. 24 “By the way, you folks are in here — this place is packed, there are lines that go back six blocks.” (There was no evidence of long lines.)

Feb. 24 “ICE came and endorsed me.” (Only its union did.)

Feb. 24 “Obamacare covers very few people — and remember, deduct from the number all of the people that had great health care that they loved that was taken away from them — it was taken away from them.” (Obamacare increased coverage by a net of about 20 million.)

Feb. 27 “Since Obamacare went into effect, nearly half of the insurers are stopped and have stopped from participating in the Obamacare exchanges.” (Many fewer pulled out.)

Feb. 27 “On one plane, on a small order of one plane, I saved $725 million. And I would say I devoted about, if I added it up, all those calls, probably about an hour. So I think that might be my highest and best use.” (Much of the price cut was already projected.)

Feb. 28 “And now, based on our very strong and frank discussions, they are beginning to do just that.” (NATO countries agreed to meet defense spending requirements in 2014.)

Feb. 28 “The E.P.A.’s regulators were putting people out of jobs by the hundreds of thousands.” (There's no evidence that the Waters of the United States rule caused severe job losses.)

Feb. 28 “We have begun to drain the swamp of government corruption by imposing a five-year ban on lobbying by executive branch officials.” (They can't lobby their former agency but can still become lobbyists.)

March 3 “It is so pathetic that the Dems have still not approved my full Cabinet.” (Paperwork for the last two candidates was still not submitted to the Senate.)

March 4 “Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!” (There's no evidence of a wiretap.)

March 4 “How low has President Obama gone to tap my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!” (There's no evidence of a wiretap.)

March 7 “122 vicious prisoners, released by the Obama Administration from Gitmo, have returned to the battlefield. Just another terrible decision!” (113 of them were released by President George W. Bush.)

March 13 “I saved a lot of money on those jets, didn't I? Did I do a good job? More than $725 million on them.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)

March 13 “First of all, it covers very few people.” (About 20 million people gained insurance under Obamacare.)

March 15 “On the airplanes, I saved $725 million. Probably took me a half an hour if you added up all of the times.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)

March 17 “I was in Tennessee — I was just telling the folks — and half of the state has no insurance company, and the other half is going to lose the insurance company.” (There's at least one insurer in every Tennessee county.)

March 20 “With just one negotiation on one set of airplanes, I saved the taxpayers of our country over $700 million.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)

March 21 “To save taxpayer dollars, I’ve already begun negotiating better contracts for the federal government — saving over $700 million on just one set of airplanes of which there are many sets.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)

March 22 “I make the statement, everyone goes crazy. The next day they have a massive riot, and death, and problems.” (Riots in Sweden broke out two days later and there were no deaths.)

March 22 “NATO, obsolete, because it doesn’t cover terrorism. They fixed that.” (It has fought terrorism since the 1980s.)
March 22 “Well, now, if you take a look at the votes, when I say that, I mean mostly they register wrong — in other words, for the votes, they register incorrectly and/or illegally. And they then vote. You have tremendous numbers of people.” (There's no evidence of widespread voter fraud.)

March 29 “Remember when the failing @nytimes apologized to its subscribers, right after the election, because their coverage was so wrong. Now worse!” (It didn't apologize.)

March 31 “We have a lot of plants going up now in Michigan that were never going to be there if I — if I didn’t win this election, those plants would never even think about going back. They were gone.” (These investments were already planned.)

April 2 “And I was totally opposed to the war in the Middle East which I think finally has been proven, people tried very hard to say I wasn’t but you’ve seen that it is now improving.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.)

April 2 “Now, my last tweet — you know, the one that you are talking about, perhaps — was the one about being, in quotes, wiretapped, meaning surveilled. Guess what, it is turning out to be true.” (There is still no evidence.)

April 5 “You have many states coming up where they’re going to have no insurance company. O.K.? It’s already happened in Tennessee. It’s happening in Kentucky. Tennessee only has half coverage. Half the state is gone. They left.” (Every marketplace region in Tennessee had at least one insurer.)

April 6 “If you look at the kind of cost-cutting we’ve been able to achieve with the military and at the same time ordering vast amounts of equipment — saved hundreds of millions of dollars on airplanes, and really billions, because if you take that out over a period of years it’s many billions of dollars — I think we’ve had a tremendous success.” (Much of the price cuts were already projected.)

April 11 “I like Steve, but you have to remember he was not involved in my campaign until very late. I had already beaten all the senators and all the governors, and I didn’t know Steve.” (He knew Steve Bannon since 2011.)

April 12 “You can't do it faster, because they're obstructing. They're obstructionists. So I have people — hundreds of people that we're trying to get through. I mean you have — you see the backlog. We can't get them through.” (At this point, he had not nominated anyone for hundreds of positions.)

April 12 “The New York Times said the word wiretapped in the headline of the first edition. Then they took it out of there fast when they realized.” (There were separate headlines for print and web, but neither were altered.)

April 12 “The secretary general and I had a productive discussion about what more NATO can do in the fight against terrorism. I complained about that a long time ago and they made a change, and now they do fight terrorism.” (NATO has been engaged in counterterrorism efforts since the 1980s.)

April 12 “Mosul was supposed to last for a week and now they’ve been fighting it for many months and so many more people died.” (The campaign was expected to take months.)

April 16 “Someone should look into who paid for the small organized rallies yesterday. The election is over!” (There's no evidence of paid protesters.)

April 18 “The fake media goes, ‘Donald Trump changed his stance on China.’ I haven’t changed my stance.” (He did.)

April 21 “On 90 planes I saved $725 million. It's actually a little bit more than that, but it's $725 million.” (Much of the price cuts were already projected.)

April 21 “When WikiLeaks came out ... never heard of WikiLeaks, never heard of it.” (He criticized it as early as 2010.)

April 27 “I want to help our miners while the Democrats are blocking their healthcare.” (The bill to extend health benefits for certain coal miners was introduced by a Democrat and was co-sponsored by mostly Democrats.)

April 28 “The trade deficit with Mexico is close to $70 billion, even with Canada it’s $17 billion trade deficit with Canada.” (The U.S. had an $8.1 billion trade surplus, not deficit, with Canada in 2016.)

April 28 “She's running against someone who's going to raise your taxes to the sky, destroy your health care, and he's for open borders — lots of crime.” (Those are not Jon Ossoff's positions.)

April 28 “The F-35 fighter jet program — it was way over budget. I’ve saved $725 million plus, just by getting involved in the negotiation.” (Much of the price cuts were planned before Trump.)

April 29 “As you know, I've been a big critic of China, and I've been talking about currency manipulation for a long time. But I have to tell you that during the election, number one, they stopped.” (China stopped years ago.)

April 29 “I've already saved more than $725 million on a simple order of F-35 planes. I got involved in the negotiation.” (Much of the price cuts were planned before Trump.)

April 29 “We're also getting NATO countries to finally step up and contribute their fair share. They've begun to increase their contributions by billions of dollars, but we are not going to be satisfied until everyone pays what they owe.” (The deal was struck in 2014.)

April 29 “When they talk about currency manipulation, and I did say I would call China, if they were, a currency manipulator, early in my tenure. And then I get there. Number one, they — as soon as I got elected, they stopped.” (China stopped in 2014.)

April 29 “I was negotiating to reduce the price of the big fighter jet contract, the F-35, which was totally out of control. I will save billions and billions and billions of dollars.” (Most of the cuts were planned before Trump.)

April 29 “I think our side's been proven very strongly. And everybody's talking about it.” (There's still no evidence Trump's phones were tapped.)

May 1 “Well, we are protecting pre-existing conditions. And it'll be every good — bit as good on pre-existing conditions as Obamacare.” (The bill weakens protections for people with pre-existing conditions.)

May 1 “The F-35 fighter jet — I saved — I got involved in the negotiation. It's 2,500 jets. I negotiated for 90 planes, lot 10. I got $725 million off the price.” (Much of the price cuts were planned before Trump.)

May 1 “First of all, since I started running, they haven't increased their — you know, they have not manipulated their currency. I think that was out of respect to me and the campaign.” (China stopped years ago.)

May 2 “I love buying those planes at a reduced price. I have been really — I have cut billions — I have to tell you this, and they can check, right, Martha? I have cut billions and billions of dollars off plane contracts sitting here.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)

May 4 “Number two, they’re actually not a currency [manipulator]. You know, since I’ve been talking about currency manipulation with respect to them and other countries, they stopped.” (China stopped years ago.)

May 4 “We’re the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

May 4 “Nobody cares about my tax return except for the reporters.” (Polls show most Americans do care.)

May 8 “You know we’ve gotten billions of dollars more in NATO than we’re getting. All because of me.” (The deal was struck in 2014.)

May 8 “But when I did his show, which by the way was very highly rated. It was high — highest rating. The highest rating he’s ever had.” (Colbert's Late Show debut had nearly two million more viewers.)

May 8 “Director Clapper reiterated what everybody, including the fake media already knows — there is ‘no evidence’ of collusion w/ Russia and Trump.” (Clapper only said he wasn't aware of an investigation.)

May 12 “Again, the story that there was collusion between the Russians & Trump campaign was fabricated by Dems as an excuse for losing the election.” (The F.B.I. was investigating before the election.)

May 12 “When James Clapper himself, and virtually everyone else with knowledge of the witch hunt, says there is no collusion, when does it end?” (Clapper said he wouldn't have been told of an investigation into collusion.)

May 13 “I'm cutting the price of airplanes with Lockheed.” (The cost cuts were planned before he became president.)

May 26 “Just arrived in Italy for the G7. Trip has been very successful. We made and saved the USA many billions of dollars and millions of jobs.” (He's referencing an arms deal that's not enacted and other apparent deals that weren't announced on the trip.)

June 1 “China will be allowed to build hundreds of additional coal plants. So, we can’t build the plants, but they can, according to this agreement. India will be allowed to double its coal production by 2020.” (The agreement doesn’t allow or disallow building coal plants.)

June 1 “I’ve just returned from a trip overseas where we concluded nearly $350 billion of military and economic development for the United States, creating hundreds of thousands of jobs.” (Trump’s figures are inflated and premature.)

June 4 “At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and Mayor of London says there is ‘no reason to be alarmed!’” (The mayor was specifically talking about the enlarged police presence on the streets.)

June 5 “The Justice Dept. should have stayed with the original Travel Ban, not the watered down, politically correct version they submitted to S.C.” (Trump signed this version of the travel ban, not the Justice Department.)

June 20 “Well, the Special Elections are over and those that want to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN are 5 and O!” (Republicans have won four special elections this year, while a Democrat won one.)

June 21 “They all say it's 'nonbinding.' Like hell it's nonbinding.” (The Paris climate agreement is nonbinding — and Trump said so in his speech announcing the withdrawal.)

June 21 “Right now, we are one of the highest-taxed nations in the world.” (We're not.)

June 21 “You have a gang called MS-13. ... We are moving them out of the country by the thousands, by the thousands.” (The real number of gang members deported is smaller.)

June 21 “Your insurance companies have all fled the state of Iowa.” (They haven't.)
June 21 “If [farmers] have a puddle in the middle of their field ... it's considered a lake and you can't touch it. ... We got rid of that one, too, O.K.?” (The Obama environmental rule to limit pollution in the country’s waters explicitly excludes puddles.)

June 21 “Gary Cohn just paid $200 million in tax in order to take this job, by the way.” (Cohn sold Goldman Sachs stock worth $220 million.)

June 21 “We’re 5 and 0.” (Republicans have won four special elections this year, while a Democrat won one.)

June 21 “Last week a brand-new coal mine just opened in the state of Pennsylvania, first time in decades, decades.” (Another coal mine opened in 2014.)

June 22 “Former Homeland Security Advisor Jeh Johnson is latest top intelligence official to state there was no grand scheme between Trump & Russia.” (Johnson, who had a different title, didn't say that.)

June 23 “We are 5 and 0 ... in these special elections.” (Republicans have won four special elections this year, while a Democrat won one.)

June 27 “Ratings way down!” (CNN's ratings were at a five-year high at the time.)

June 28 “Democrats purposely misstated Medicaid under new Senate bill — actually goes up.” (Senate bill would have cut the program deeply.)

June 29 “General Kelly and his whole group — they’ve gotten rid of 6,000 so far.” (The real number of MS-13 gang members who have been deported is smaller.)

July 6 “As a result of this insistence, billions of dollars more have begun to pour into NATO.” (NATO countries agreed to meet defense spending requirements in 2014.)

July 17 “We’ve signed more bills — and I’m talking about through the legislature — than any president, ever.” (Clinton, Carter, Truman, and F.D.R. had signed more at the same point.)

July 19 “Um, the Russian investigation — it’s not an investigation, it’s not on me — you know, they’re looking at a lot of things.” (It is.)

July 19 “I heard that Harry Truman was first, and then we beat him. These are approved by Congress. These are not just executive orders.” (Presidents Clinton, Carter, Truman, and F.D.R. each had signed more legislation than Trump at the same point in their terms.)

July 19 “But the F.B.I. person really reports directly to the president of the United States, which is interesting.” (He reports directly to the attorney general.)

July 19 “She did the uranium deal, which is a horrible thing, while she was secretary of state, and got a lot of money.” (There's no evidence Hillary Clinton was actively involved or benefited from the deal.)

July 24 “It looks like about 45,000 people. You set a record today.” (Many fewer than 45,000 were there, and the attendance was not a record.)

July 25 “We have the highest taxes anywhere in the world, and this will really bring them down to one of the lowest.” (Tax rates in the United States are below average, overall and for an industrialized country.)

July 25 “We’re the highest-taxed nation in the world” (We're not.)

July 25 “We have nearly doubled the number of veterans given approvals to see the doctor of their choice.” (The increase was 26 percent.)

July 25 “Since I took office we have cut illegal immigration on our southern border by record numbers. 78 percent.” (The decline began before Trump's inauguration.)

July 28 “The previous administration enacted an open-door policy to illegal migrants from Central America. "Welcome in. Come in, please, please.” (Obama deported millions.)

July 28 “We have trade deficits with almost every country because we had a lot of really bad negotiators making deals with other countries.” (The U.S. has a trade surplus with more than 100 countries.)

July 31 “2.6 is a number that nobody thought they’d see for a long period of time.” (Many experts predicted economic growth at least this high.)

July 31 “And even the President of Mexico called me – they said their southern border, very few people are coming because they know they’re not going to get through our border, which is the ultimate compliment.” (Mexico's president says he didn't call Trump.)

Aug. 1 “And I think to me, maybe the biggest is that GDP for the quarter just released at 2.6 percent. So that's so much higher than anticipated.” (It wasn't.)

Aug. 3 “Economic growth has surged to 2.6% nationwide. You have to understand what that means. Nobody thought that number was going to happen.” (Many experts predicted that.)

Aug. 3 “The Russia story is a total fabrication.” (It's not.)

Aug. 3 “Or let them look at the uranium she sold that is now in the hands of very angry Russians.” (There's no evidence Hillary Clinton was actively involved in the sale.)

Aug. 15 “We want products made in the country. Now, I have to tell you, some of the folks that will leave, they're leaving out of embarrassment because they make their products outside.” (People resigned from Trump's business councils over his Charlottesville comments.)

Aug. 22 “Remember, everybody said you won’t bring it up to 1 percent. You won’t bring it up to 1.2 percent.” (Many experts predicted economic growth at least this high.)

Aug. 22 “I mean truly dishonest people in the media and the fake media, they make up stories. They have no sources in many cases. They say 'a source says' – there is no such thing.” (The media does not make up sources.)

Aug. 22 “As everybody here remembers, this was the scene of my first rally speech, right?” (Trump's first rally was in New Hampshire)

Aug. 22 “We have become an energy exporter for the first time ever just recently.” (The U.S. isn't projected to become a net energy exporter until 2026.)

Aug. 22 “Look back there, the live red lights. They're turning those suckers off fast out there. They're turning those lights off fast. Like CNN.” (CNN didn't turn off its cameras.)

Sept. 6 “The taxes are crazy – the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Sept. 6 “We are the highest taxed nation in the world - that will change.” (We're not.)

Sept. 8 “Our incredible U.S. Coast Guard saved more than 15,000 lives last week with Harvey.” (The real number is 11,022.)

Sept. 14 “Also with the fact that I know in the case of FEMA and the case of Coast Guard, the job you've done in saving people, saving lives. As an example, in Harvey in Texas, we talked – over 16,000 lives.” (The real number is smaller.)

Sept. 14 “And in Florida you got hit with the strongest winds ever recorded.” (They weren't the strongest ever recorded.)

Sept. 22 “We've been dealing with ICE, we've been dealing with the Border Patrol. They both endorsed me.” (Neither agency endorsed him; only their unions did.)

Sept. 22 “So he started off here, he was in third or fourth, he went to third, second, and now it's like almost pretty even.” (Strange consistently polled first or second in the Alabama Republican primary.)

Sept. 29 “With the F-35 fighter plane – me, myself – I've saved hundreds of millions of dollars in negotiating.” (The cost cuts were planned before he became president.)

Sept. 27 “I’m doing the right thing, and it’s not good for me.” (All available evidence suggests he would benefit.)
Sept. 27 “To protect millions of small businesses and the American farmer, we are finally ending the crushing, the horrible, the unfair estate tax.” (The real number of small businesses and farmers is vastly smaller.)

Sept. 27 “No, I don't benefit. I don't benefit. In fact, very very strongly, as you see, I think there's very little benefit for people of wealth.” (The tax plan would personally benefit Trump and other wealthy individuals.)

Sept. 27 “Facebook was always anti-Trump.The Networks were always anti-Trump hence,Fake News, @nytimes(apologized) & @WaPo were anti-Trump.” (The Times did not apologize for its Trump coverage.)

Sept. 28 “I mean right now, we're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 3 “But the Coast Guard itself saved in Texas 16,000 lives, and they went right through that hurricane.” (The real number is smaller.)

Oct. 3 “But that's an expensive plane that you can't see. And as you probably heard, we cut the price very substantially – something that other administrations would never have done, that I can tell you.” (The cost cuts were planned before he became president.)

Oct. 6 “I was able to reduce the price of the Lockheed by billions of dollars.” (The cost cuts were planned before he became president.)

Oct. 6 “We're the highest-taxed developed nation in the world, probably the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 6 “They also just said that there has been absolutely no collusion. They just said that. Yesterday. Two days ago. Senate. There has been no collusion.” (The Senate didn't say that.)

Oct. 6 “This tax cut and tax reform is going very well, and it's going to be a tremendous boost for our country, including the fact that we're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 7 “We're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 7 “The Coast Guard, in Texas, and all over, but with the job they did in Texas, I saw, they saved 16,000 lives.” (The real number is smaller.)

Oct. 7 “Obama should have never gotten out the way he got out. That's how ISIS formed.” (The group’s origins date to 2004.)

Oct. 10 “The Failing @nytimes set Liddle' Bob Corker up by recording his conversation. Was made to sound a fool, and that's what I am dealing with!” (Corker asked the Times reporter to record the call; his aides recorded it too.)

Oct. 10 “We're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 11 “We have missiles that can knock out a missile in the air. Ninety seven per cent of the time. If you send two of them, it's going to get knocked out.” (The effectiveness rate is about 60 percent.)

Oct. 16 “We're the highest-taxed country in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 16 “I hear that Ireland is going to be reducing their corporate rates down to 8 percent from 12.” (Ireland has no plans to cut its tax rate.)

Oct. 16 “If you look at President Obama and other presidents, most of them didn’t make calls.” (They did call families of soldiers killed in action.)

Oct. 16 “All I can say is it's totally fake news, just fake. It's fake. It's made-up stuff, and it's disgraceful what happens, but that happens in the world of politics.” (Trump himself has bragged about groping women.)

Oct. 17 “We're the highest taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “Right now, we are the highest-taxed nation anywhere in the world. You can even say developed or undeveloped.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “As far as I'm concerned, I think we're really essentially the highest. But if you'd like to add the developed nation, you can say that, too.” (Taxes in the U.S. are lower than in most developed countries.)

Oct. 17 “We're the highest-taxed nation in the world. We are taxed beyond belief.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “Well, we're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “I wish President Obama didn't get out the way he got out. Because that left a vacuum and ISIS was formed.” (The group’s origins date to 2004.)

Oct. 18 “Democrat Congresswoman totally fabricated what I said to the wife of a soldier who died in action (and I have proof).” (The wife confirmed Representative Frederica Wilson's account.)

Oct. 18 “The Coast Guard in Texas saved 16,000 lives.” (The real number was smaller.)

Oct. 18 “Nobody has ever heard of a five hitting land.” (Category 5 storms have hit land before.)

Oct. 24 “Under our plan, more than 30 million Americans who own small businesses will get a 40 per cent cut to their top marginal tax rate.” (The real number is estimated to be less than 1 million.)
Oct. 25 “We have trade deficits with almost everybody.” (We have trade surpluses with more than 100 countries.)

Oct. 27 “Wacky & totally unhinged Tom Steyer, who has been fighting me and my Make America Great Again agenda from beginning, never wins elections!” (Steyer has financially supported many winning candidates.)

Nov. 1 “Again, we're the highest-taxed nation, just about, in the world.” (We're not.)

Nov. 7 “When you look at the city with the strongest gun laws in our nation, it's Chicago.” (Several other cities, including New York and Los Angeles, have stronger gun laws.)

Nov. 11 “I'd rather have him – you know, work with him on the Ukraine than standing and arguing about whether or not – because that whole thing was set up by the Democrats.” (There is no evidence that Democrats "set up" Russian interference in the election.)

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 04:06

Correction:

The First Year of Trump’s Lies

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

Sources: Politifact; Factcheck.org; The Washington Post Fact Checker; The Toronto Star

May 4 “We’re the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

June 21 “Right now, we are one of the highest-taxed nations in the world.” (We're not.)

July 25 “We have the highest taxes anywhere in the world, and this will really bring them down to one of the lowest.” (Tax rates in the United States are below average, overall and for an industrialized country.)

July 25 “We’re the highest-taxed nation in the world” (We're not.)

Sept. 6 “The taxes are crazy – the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Sept. 6 “We are the highest taxed nation in the world - that will change.” (We're not.)

Sept. 28 “I mean right now, we're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 6 “We're the highest-taxed developed nation in the world, probably the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 6 “This tax cut and tax reform is going very well, and it's going to be a tremendous boost for our country, including the fact that we're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 7 “We're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 10 “We're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 16 “We're the highest-taxed country in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “We're the highest taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “Right now, we are the highest-taxed nation anywhere in the world. You can even say developed or undeveloped.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “As far as I'm concerned, I think we're really essentially the highest. But if you'd like to add the developed nation, you can say that, too.” (Taxes in the U.S. are lower than in most developed countries.)

Oct. 17 “We're the highest-taxed nation in the world. We are taxed beyond belief.” (We're not.)

Oct. 17 “Well, we're the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)

Nov. 1 “Again, we're the highest-taxed nation, just about, in the world.” (We're not.)
Well, I won't spend my time disputing all of your claims, but I can get the above eighteen of them in one shot. According to https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/current_revenue, some 6.3 Trillion US Dollars will be collected in taxes in the US, federal, state and local, for fiscal year 2019.

Unless you can show me some other nation collecting more, I will conclude that that is number one, world-wide.

My unchecked presumption is that many more of your so called documented Trump lies are actually main stream media misrepresentations of what Trump said, and/or of what is actually true.

In particular, the New York Times, Politifact, Factcheck.org, The Washington Post, Fact Checker, and The Toronto Star (inter alia) are not reliable news sources in my view, and if you think they are reliable news sources, I doubt that we can engage in a productive discussion on such matters.

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 04:47

The "lie" that he is going to introduce a new tax bill later.

[Note: I quote A Voice from the Mountains here because he seems to be the first to actually state the matter named in this thread's title, but my comments below are more in response to Fellow Aspirant and some other commentators above.]

Before knowing whether what Trump said was actually a lie, we'd have to know what he actually said.

What did Trump say, and when/where did he say it? The actual, literal, words.

Taking some main stream media's (or wherever this report comes from) say so on the matter, and then rebutting that say so with an explanation of the legal process that federal tax laws go through in the US, tells me essentially nothing as to whether or not "Trump lied."

Posting some 180 other claimed lies is a good example of Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon, from Arrowwind's 2013 thread How To Know a Shill and a Troll (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54798-How-To-Know-a-Shill-and-a-Troll) thread.

To post such a list without actually tracking down each one down to what he said and what's the truth is an example of a use of a rhetorical device to score debating points when the actual facts and logic don't support the claims at hand. Rather than track down the one claim made by the original poster of this thread and its similarly named predecessor thread, you dump another 180 such claims on us, copied and pasted from a summary list in the New York Times.

That would twist the opening claim of this thread, that here is Trump's latest lie, into claiming that such must be true because he lies so often that it's not surprising he lied again. It leaves the burden of proof on the reader to disprove (and have you accept and agree to that disproof) all 180 of these claims that Trump lied ... an impossible burden.

This is not research. This is not reasoned debate seeking to get to the facts of anything in particular.

This is a political food fight in the school cafeteria, and Fellow Aspirant claims a win because he threw some 180 custards into the fight.

Given however the click bait nature of this thread's title, I should not have expected much better.

(Oh ... and if you hold politicians, any politician, to the same standard of precision and accuracy in all their public statements to which I would hold the software controlling the next airplane I fly in, then I've got a bit of news for you: all politicians will fail your test.)

Daozen

25th October 2018, 04:50

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 05:04

If he was that strong, he would not need a small army of online pundits continually reminding us what a great guy he is.
Yes, there's a small army of online pundits reminding us how great Trump is.

There is also a small army of online pundits reminding us how bad Trump is.

We live in politically charged times. Divisions, controversies, confusions and conflicts are being stirred up, rather deliberately and rather successfully, from what I can tell, by the bastards in power.

Our jobs here as leaders in our families, amongst our friends, and in our local and online communities, are

to improve our understanding and awareness of what has been, what is, and what might be,
to understand what might be better and how, and what would be worse, to be avoided, and
to gather the energy and focus, individually and with others, to make the better happen.

Arguing red versus blue (or whatever political divisions energize one) is but an early step in this process.

Daozen

25th October 2018, 05:16

If he was that strong, he would not need a small army of online pundits continually reminding us what a great guy he is.
Yes, there's a small army of online pundits reminding us how great Trump is.

There is also a small army of online pundits reminding us how bad Trump is.

He's no worse than any other US President. I just find the fact that 5 or 6 people in this forum are continually enforcing a "Trump is good" narrative is unsettling to say the least. AMSTEC lied about Obama, and they are are most likely lying (or delusional) about Trump. Time will tell. I don't see the same level of organization on the part of people on this forum who dislike Trump. There's a near constant vigil kept by several posters, and anyone who steps out of line is forced back into the narrative. It doesn't make sense that people should spend their own time and money doing this.

I am not telling people that he is "bad"..., just that cheerleading him is a waste of time.

No real energy to continue this discussion. In short, it's hard to believe the Trump supporters here are sincere. Something's wrong.

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 05:22

Daozen

25th October 2018, 05:33

I am not telling people that he is "bad"..., just that cheerleading him is a waste of time.

No real energy to continue this discussion. In short, it's hard to believe the Trump supporters here are sincere. Something's wrong.
Ah - so you're not saying Trump is "bad" ... you're saying something's wrong with Trump supporters.

... something that you "don't see" "on the part of people on this forum who dislike Trump".

ok ...

I have no real interest in interacting with you to be honest Paul. I don't like the terse way you speak to people, and I think you stretch the limits of your moderator powers at times. I only talk to you when you respond to my posts and I'll probably just not respond in future.

Yes, my main point is not that Trump is so bad, just that his supporters are delusional.

Bye!

TargeT

25th October 2018, 05:36

. In short, it's hard to believe the Trump supporters here are sincere. Something's wrong.

Your in the UK... your information sources are well known to us from the US.

what basis do you think you have to judge what is happening thousands of miles away? NEWS? the BBC and the majority of your contries controlling structure support your narrative (trumps supporters are insane, trump is hitler, etc...)

Why do you think you have a valid data set to judge this situation?

When is the last time you have been in the US? When is the last time you have been to Washington DC? When is the last time you saw the localized economic impact of the current president?

I am really baffled by the vehemence of foreign commenters with absolutely zero unbiased data sources.

Why is critical thinking completely lost these days?

(does the Socratic method work?)

Yes, my main point is not that Trump is so bad, just that his supporters are delusional.

what data set makes you think that?

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 05:38

(does the Socratic method work?)
Is TargeT a hopeless optimist ?

:)

RunningDeer

25th October 2018, 07:09

Posting some 180 other claimed lies is a good example of Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon, from Arrowwind's 2013 thread How To Know a Shill and a Troll (Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon) thread.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/write.gif Link correction: How To Know a Shill and a Troll (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54798-How-To-Know-a-Shill-and-a-Troll)

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

meeradas

25th October 2018, 07:19

[...]Posting some 180 other claimed lies is a good example of Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon, from Arrowwind's 2013 thread How To Know a Shill and a Troll (Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION' The most prevelant technique used on Avalon) thread. [...]

tech interlude -

Paul's link wasn't a working link (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54798-How-To-Know-a-Shill-and-a-Troll&p=623257&viewfull=1#post623257) [well, now it is, here].

And, :focus:

A Voice from the Mountains

25th October 2018, 07:45

Well, I won't spend my time disputing all of your claims, but I can get the above eighteen of them in one shot.

The very first item on the list, about the Iraq War, was one of Hillary's talking points during the election campaign to deflect from her own support of the Iraq War. Their evidence for Trump "supporting" it was right after it was announced, and he was asked if he supported it, and his words were something non-committal, to the effect of "Yeah, I guess." This was the only time he even half-heartedly supported our invasion of Iraq, in any interview, the rest of the time criticizing it, and yet this was Hillary's defense against her own full-throated support of the unpopular war.

And this just being the first item listed, which you'd have to either be a foreigner or else totally out of the loop to not already know has been beaten to death during the campaign, it told me everything I needed to know about the quality of the rest of the list.

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 07:57

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/write.gif Link correction: How To Know a Shill and a Troll (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54798-How-To-Know-a-Shill-and-a-Troll)

Paul's link wasn't a working link (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54798-How-To-Know-a-Shill-and-a-Troll&p=623257&viewfull=1#post623257) [well, now it is, here].
Thanks - link fixed now (I hope).

A Voice from the Mountains

25th October 2018, 08:03

You misread my post Voice from the Mountains. I was referring to this:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/aug/02/donald-trump/us-steel-not-opening-six-new-mills-donald-trump/

Trump claimed that US steel were going to open 6 new mills. US steel said that wasn't true.

I don't particularly care, for the reasons about tariffs and steel that I just explained to you on the previous page.

This is exactly like my Sweden example. You focus on the particulars and get caught up in the details of a specific statement, when the overall message he is delivering is accurate, and you have just been baited into a conversation about tariffs and how they can help us rebuild our steel industry at home.

Whether or not the industrial jobs are returning is not a matter of disagreement, though the left is going to do everything they can to undermine the number of jobs created since he took office. Jobs, which, by the way, Obama said were never coming back, and that Trump would have to have a "magic wand" to return.

Even the anti-Trump Washington Post has to admit it:

Under Trump, the jobs boom has finally reached blue-collar workers. Will it last?

Growth in this sector is occurring at the fastest rate since 1984.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/09/under-trump-jobs-boom-has-finally-reached-blue-collar-workers-will-it-last/

1984 = Reagan's first tax cuts kicking in, btw.

Of course if Washington Post can admit it, then you know they're not alone:

The Trump Manufacturing Jobs Boom: 10 Times Obama's Over 21 Months

The Great Recession officially ended in June 2009, six months into former President Obama’s first term. The economy continued to shed jobs until the following March. Manufacturing was particularly hard hit, with almost 2.3 million manufacturing jobs—some 1 in 6—lost between January 2008 and March 2010.

As is the case during recoveries, jobs bounced back, with seasonally adjusted nonfarm employment expanding almost 12% from March 2010 until January 2017, when President Obama handed over the presidency to Donald Trump.

But during the same period, manufacturing employment grew only 7.7% with manufacturing payrolls virtually flat in the last 21 months of the Obama administration.

We were told it was the new normal.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/10/16/the-trump-manufacturing-jobs-boom-10-times-obamas-over-21-months/#174537665850

Manufacturing jobs are defying expectations

Should Donald Trump get the credit?

“NATION LONGS for one more day with dying manufacturing sector.” This headline, published in 2014 by the satirical website the Onion, anticipated both President Donald Trump’s fears and the retorts he gets from his critics. Mr Trump campaigned on a promise to bring back jobs in manufacturing after decades of decline. To those who see the future of the American economy in services, these promises seemed backward. When he was head of the National Economic Council, Gary Cohn reportedly asked the president which he would prefer: sitting in nice air-conditioned office, or standing on his feet all day.

In 2018 it looks as though the president is winning the day. Industrial output is on a tear, and the last few months have seen the best run for growth in manufacturing jobs since the late 1990s.

https://amp.economist.com/united-states/2018/10/20/manufacturing-jobs-are-defying-expectations

I think he's prone to running his mouth without checking the facts and that could easily be called a lie. Presidents should know better. He tweeted that US Steel were going to open 6 more plants. They weren't. Seems like a lie to me, or just plain delusion. I don't see how anyone can talk their way out of that.

And yet here you are, the little man in the big scheme of things as you are (as we all are here, compared to the macro-scale of what we are discussing), talking about what he should know and what he should say, when he has obviously baited you into a topic that will force you to either realize that he is actually delivering on the economy, or else make a fool of yourself for trying to trivialize that fact by parsing his words, as if that is supposed to be a bigger deal than tens of thousands of people put to work in manufacturing.

His overall message was that steel manufacturing is picking up in the US, which it very clearly is, both by the numbers and for the very obvious reasons stated in my previous post. For you to continue parsing the meaning of his words on this issue just shows that you neither understand his tactics of playing the media, nor do you care to even avoid the same trap yourself.

If he was that strong, he would not need a small army of online pundits continually reminding us what a great guy he is.

Turn on MSNBC or CNN one day and see how you like that instead.

Ah - so you're not saying Trump is "bad" ... you're saying something's wrong with Trump supporters.

... something that you "don't see" "on the part of people on this forum who dislike Trump".

ok ...

That was my interpretation too. It's not the "orange man bad" program kicking, but some other set of conditioning that makes something seem vaguely wrong with us for being satisfied with our elected leader. :P

If you want to know how I feel about it, just imagine a Scottish victory after hundreds of years of English oppression. Of course the Scots today are the most cowardly lot of all of Britain (no offense to any Scots here, you are my distant kin after all and I say it with love, to stir your loins), but you get the idea.

Pic for additional clarification:

https://yesandrew.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/braveheart_freedom.jpg

T Smith

25th October 2018, 11:46

Correction:

The First Year of Trump’s Lies

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

I will be blunt. If Trump tells me or the people a lie, I would like to be informed about it. So what does a reasonable person, who wants to be informed, do? Open the New York Times?

Wrong.

The old saying, "you had me at hello," applies in reverse here. The very first supposed "lie" on this list is a complete fabrication, which discredits the entire list as far as I'm concerned. Does that mean everything the New York Times is reporting here is untrue and fake news? Probably not. I'm sure there may be some facts here that are meritorious and accurate. But I sure as hell don't want to wade through this spin propaganda piece trying to vet and cross check what facts are accurate and what so-called facts are merely Trump-bashing spin. I want my news sources to be trustworthy so I don't have to do dissertation-level research to vet their claims every time I pick up the newspaper. I will do that, if necessary, but I would prefer to just get old-fashioned honest reporting instead.

But when the very first assertion on this list is blatant fake news, it doesn't bode well for me as far as the credibility of the entire piece.

To wit:

Donald Trump WAS NEVER FOR THE IRAQ WAR. Period. How do I know? Because I was blatantly anti-Iraq war from day one, when practically 91% of the American public swayed by anti-terrorism war-drum propaganda supported an Iraq invasion. So I was well informed on this particular topic at a time when it was popular to be for the Iraq war. Especially for politicians. It was also safe to be for the Iraq war. Especially for politicians. Read those last few sentences carefully. In other words, coming out against the war, at that time, was basically akin to stepping on a third rail. Donald Trump did so.

There were two -- count them -- two highly visible public figures who went against the tide. Ron Paul and Donald Trump. At the time I really didn't like Donald Trump too much. But I do remember his rants about being against the Iraq war.

Now -- if you want to claim he was "for" the Iraq War because of one interview he had on the Howard Stern show -- in which the topics of male genitalia and fellatio were the main focus of conversation, when Donald Trump was merely a celebrity and not even a political figure in the public eye yet, when Stern repeatedly cornered and goaded Trump on about supporting an Iraq invasion (among other things in-between aforementioned lewd topics) -- and recall, invasion of Iraq at the time was popular--in which Trump replied... "yeah, I guess, I dunno..." That doesn't count as being "for the war". In other words, this was not a serious conversation. And yes, he was being cornered into saying something Stern wanted him to say, in a very light, unserious conversation.

I'm sorry, reporting he was "for the war" based on this conversation is just dishonest reporting.

I remember the anti-Trump train claimed this supposed "flip-flop" during the 2016 election. I was shocked, because I was well aware of Donald Trump's stance on this issue when Trump discussed it in a political context. So I researched the claim and actually went back and listened to the entire interview with Stern, to see what I had missed and how I was so misinformed about where Donald Trump stood on his position on invading Iraq. After listening to the entire interview I was shocked. That is, shocked at the degree of fake news (now reported as the #1 lie on the OP's list).

C'mon. I'm all for calling out any lies. But they need to be from credible sources, and they need to be real. Not spin to serve the agenda to prove Donald Trump is really Evil Incarnate.

By the way, if I have to spend as much time proving or disproving every single assertion this list, as the time I spent to discover the very first assertion on this NY Times hit piece is blatant fake news, I'll get back to you sometime in the first quarter of 2019 to let you know what % of these claims actually stick.

Kind Regards,

T Smith

WhiteFeather

25th October 2018, 14:05

Life is short. Make sure you spend as much time as possible on the internet arguing with strangers about politics. :facepalm:

Now that is a classic post!
PS I'd rather have another Liar in office, than a lying perpatrator...

DeDukshyn

25th October 2018, 14:40

The problem is trump supporters are willing to overlook the lies and the non trump supporters see the lies for what they are.

So, just like every politician ever?

Why do people treat this like this presidency is different, it's not... it's just "now".
...

Very true, and also true from the other perspective - Trump seems to have garnered a far greater "savior" mentality in his supporters than I have seen in quite some time ... I find it a bit funny that many of those same people that would say not get caught into a "savior" mentality trap, seem to believe that Trump is our final savior.

a bit of distinctions I see ...
1) Strong political alignments are as useless and potentially destructive as ever - but the alignments are very strong right now.
2) We keep erroneously believing that some politician or a POTUS is going to save us from the universal "bad guys".

Valerie Villars

25th October 2018, 16:13

I like Trump and do not see him as a savior. I like that he says what he thinks, even if he sounds like an idiot sometimes. Most people are so afraid of sounding stupid or being politically incorrect, they don't say anything. Or worse, they pretend to be something they are not, out of fear.

I said I would quit smoking and I haven't yet. Does that make me a liar? Or just a normal flawed human?

T Smith

25th October 2018, 17:02

He's no worse than any other US President. I just find the fact that 5 or 6 people in this forum are continually enforcing a "Trump is good" narrative is unsettling to say the least....it's hard to believe the Trump supporters here are sincere. Something's wrong.

Here's the thing, and this is just my take, if it might provide any insight or value:

Something is wrong. There is a battle afoot, the outcome of which will affect us all.

But I don't think it's what you might suspect. I would bet the farm and everything else I own that there are no trolls here on this forum being paid to push a pro-Trump agenda. Most of the posters I know on the forum are open-minded and have demonstrated by the merits of their posts and ideas a very high degree of critical thought. Rarely do I see "talking" points reiterated to push an argument, unless--in the case of this topic in particular--it's an unthoughtful post aping MSM talking points that are patently Orwellian, e.g. Trump = Racist; Trump = Hitler; Trump = Misogynist; Trump = Bad. Yawn.

I want real criticism of Trump, and real discussion, not the above contrived conflations that in no way stand up to serious critical inquiry.

In contrast, your post is thoughtful and not the typical anti-Trump banter, so I feel it merits discussion.

So what is going on here? You seem to hit on an unnerving dynamic prevalent not only on the forum, but also in the geopolitical landscape at large. Anyway, this is how your post resonates with me, so here is my take. My hope is someone might add to my take, or enlighten me or point out something to me I haven't thought about yet, so I can evolve in my own understanding of what is going on. Which is just as you are trying to do, or so it seems to me. You are advancing an idea very unlike the unconscious army of detractors you often see bashing the current President, who do nothing but push the aforementioned talking points, which do nothing for me but to insult my intelligence.

So what, then, is going on?

As far as I can tell, I would say there is a war afoot, of which we are all actors, to rebalance power back to the people (in political terms this is called populism); and this battle is coming to a head. The process defines the whole political process from the beginning of time to some degree, but right now, circa 2018, it is especially pronounced, heated, and intense. In the United States, this movement took root with Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders and the alternative media, e.g. InfoWars, Zero Hedge, X22, etc., etc., all of which swelled in popularity and in some cases (InfoWars -- love or hate it) directly competed with the MSM in terms of audience size.

Something different is now going on, unlike what was going on in politics before. So this isn't so much a narrative of "Trump is Good," as you suggest, as it is "Trump is Different." Maybe different's good, maybe different's bad. That's a matter of debate, opinion, etc., and we should engage that discussion.

But up until 2016 there was no "different" in politics. Politicians were but public-relations managers for the corporation that hired and employed them -- render down all the fat and this was the primary job of any high-level politician. Call the corporation that hired and employed them the Cabal, TPTB, the NWO, Deep State, Corporate Oligarchy, whatever. The point is, all politicians were merely lap-dogs for the power structure, whatever or however you wish to understand it.

Now:

This is still a somewhat shrouded relationship to the general public, but the public, in general, is awakening and becoming aware of it, given a definite cultural movement afoot, even if the masses can't quite put their fingers on that to which they are becoming aware. So in this climate there is a direct correlation to the talent of any politician's ability at managing public relations, with the degree to which said politician can convince her/his constitutions to go back to sleep -- nothing to see here, nothing to see -- that he/she is independent of said hypothetical power-structure, which is really nothing but a vicious conspiracy theory anyway -- but instead he/she is peddling virtuous policy and agenda (which is really the corporation's policy and agenda) that is designed solely for and directly aligned with the public's interests, which it isn't. Ever. So... the politician, put a D or and R or an I (or whatever) next to his/her name, is nothing but a high-grade (and highly-paid) snake-oil salesman for TPTB. Period.

It's really not much more complicated than that. The legacy of NixonCarterReaganBushClintonBushObama -- the list goes on and on and well before this--has waged a public relations campaign while peddling its employer's policies and agenda, the corporation that hired him/her for the job. This is Public Relations 101. Propaganda 101. Gas Lighting 101. Slavery 101. All big corporate cabals do it--some invest a lot of $ at it, e.g Big Pharma, Banking Cartel, Military Industrial Complex, etc.--and it's not complicated.

Trump is different. We have a rogue actor, who by sheer will and obnoxious (I emphasis this word because I would say this is 80% of what most people take issue with) determination and a genius proclivity for succeeding at getting what he wants, has usurped this dynamic, supposedly in the name of the people. So let's talk about whether this is a good thing or bad thing and stop denying that it has happened. That should be our starting point. And if it is not apparent that this is what happened in November 2016, and if you believe Donald Trump is just another shill, I would posit you're not paying close enough attention. I have entertained the claim that he is just another puppet and "public relations" manager for TPTB, but after critical examination of this claim I would respond by saying that is a lazy argument aligned with a normalcy bias of the arguer (e.g., all politicians are corrupted, so it follows Trump is also corrupted, etc.,) and said argument would be patently false. Note, however, that I'm not saying what has happened is necessarily "good" (although I'm pretty damn excited at the prospect of it). I'm saying it only as it is, that we have a rogue actor, who by sheer will and obnoxious determination and a genius proclivity for succeeding at getting what he wants (read his books from the 80s, as A Voice From The Mountains points out, if you want to further understand his tactics), has usurped this dynamic, supposedly in the name of the people.

This apparently scares the bejesus out of some people. Apparently they take more comfort being oppressed and enslaved by the master they know, rather than take a chance at being freed (or who the hell knows what else or what other kind of Armageddon might ensue ???) by the master they don't know. I, too, would posit this is a lazy stance to take. Sit up and take notice, and put your two cents in. If racism, fascism, abuse of power, etc., is truly taking place, let it be known, in a constructive and thoughtful manner, instead of aping the old power-structure's propaganda designed to enlist the masses as an unwitting army of unconscious opposition.

So in short:

There is a war going on now, between the old power structure and a new power structure that is emerging. The outcome is far from clear. The new power structure is based on classical liberalism, individualism, and free market capitalism (which the old structure fights by claiming said structure is inherently racist, sexist, and designed for the 1%). Doesn't sound to much like populism, right? Anyway, that's the argument, and to some degree, the old power structure succeeds in pushing it. Their argument is a Marxist argument, e.g. victim vs. oppressor narrative (which exists in all hierarchies, btw, regardless of its structure, and which we must always try tweak and address) -- but without throwing the baby out with the bath water--my opinion emphasized. The old-power structure has upgraded the Marxist argument to a highly divisive brand of tribalism via the narrative of identity politics, where every group is victim and the enemy of every other group and ultimately, the enemy of the collective at large, which is inherently evil and oppressive and must be revamped and reconstructed to serve the interests of the oppressed, the interests of the people. The solution to the contrived divisions is called collectivism, in the name of the people, but which never succeeds at bridging divisions, but rather exacerbates the divisions until the entire collective is in flames, at war, and in poverty. 20th century history clearly elucidates this dynamic, both on the left and the right, and this dynamic always results in mass genocide on both sides of the political spectrum, e.g., Stalin and Mao on the left and Hitler and Pinochet on the right. The politics of collectivism (represented by the old-power structure) is a honeypot trap, in my view. The politics of classical liberalism, however, (represented by the emerging power structure) represents the greater good of the collective and is also the inherent view of the vast majority of people, whether they realize it or not, and whether they lean left or right. So people who grasp this power struggle understand Trump as a rogue actor who has taken reigns on the side of the vast majority of the people's interests, whether the people recognize it or not as they wade through all the kaleidoscopic propaganda and confusing images that instruct us all how to think.

I believe -- and again, this is just my take -- that this dynamic is manifest in culture, demonstrated by the viral reception to the Q posts--and whether you subscribe or not is beside the point--I'm merely outlining a cultural dynamic prevalent in the current political climate. I don't personally follow QAnon, so I can't say how I feel about it, but I do know the current that underlies its popularity very well. It is the awakening to an ensuing battle that is happening as we speak. So the war "against" Trump is fierce and wide. TPTW are not laying down to it. Their ministry of propaganda, the MSM and Hollywood, is not laying down to it. And they are enlisting you, your neighbor, and me in their army to fight. For the most part, we are unaware we are being enlisted. But we are nonetheless to tell everybody far and wide how racist and sexist and how much of an imbecile Trump is, orange skin and ridiculous vanity, short comings of personal endowment, and all. So I would suggest what we are seeing is a manifestation of the old order throwing everything they got into the battle, including the State's propaganda arm, the MSM, and a whole slew of unwitting foot soldiers programmed to go into forums and political discussions, only to Trump bash. So I would say to you, those four or five posters, whoever they are, are responding to this dynamic as it plays out in real time. They are responding to the TPTW (B?) as it attempts to jockey back its power from the usurper, the Orange One, the rogue actor who dared challenge the system and who dared rouse the sleeping giant, and who dared to inspire the peasants to pick up their pitch forks and butter knifes to storm the castle.

All said:

I would like to partake in a real discussion about this, about the inherent dangers of said dynamic and the risks vs. benefits of government organized by and for the people. Is such a thing even possible? Does absolute power corrupt absolutely? Perhaps Benjamin Franklin was correct in his skepticism when the Framers founded a Republic.

In sum, I ask you, am I somewhere out in left field searching for 2nd base here? Am I wildly off in my understanding of what is going on? Surely there are many who say, yes, 100% off base, including many on this forum. To which, I say, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise and shown the way back to home plate. But please bring something real, not arguments advanced by an army of automatons that know not what they say.

Kind Regards,

T Smith

TargeT

25th October 2018, 17:24

Valerie Villars

25th October 2018, 18:04

T Smith, I'm normally not a point by point kind of girl, but I couldn't let your assessment go unanswered. Rarely have I read such an astute and well thought out essay on things as they currently are.

Really, really nice post. Thank you. There's not a point I disagree with.

onawah

25th October 2018, 18:09

My feeling is that no one really knows the answers to these questions except a very few. The rest of us can only speculate, and the more we become convinced we are right at whatever conclusion we may arrive at, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, the more defensive and less reasonable we become.
Jon Rappaport (and he is no doubt much more informed than most of us here) thinks that Trump is the latest in a MSM (and I dare say the usual suspects who back the MSM) victory just as much as former movie star Ronald Reagan or Obama or Jerry Brown or Arnold Schwarzenegger were. And that's one more reason why I think Trump is simply a puppet of one faction of the controllers who currently have the upper hand simply because their biggest competing faction went too far and got their hands too dirty to pass muster even in the current mess that is US politics. And the outcome of that election was determined by the same usual suspects, whose ability and motivation to highjack voting results among all the other things they have highjacked should not be underestimated. IMHO
It's pretty apparent that Trump became what he is in large part due to the fortune, grooming and schooling he got from his father. His ties to the Vatican were discussed on the forum some time ago, and I think his backing of Israel have validated those concerns. That also helps explain who backs him and counters the argument that he is an independent maverick, though that cover has been working for him pretty well. The controllers knew that people are sick and tired of politicians, so they had to invent someone who didn't look like a politician, but could be manipulated just as easily.

How CNN boss Jeff Zucker helped elect a US president and a governor of California
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2018/10/25/cnn-jeff-zucker-helped-elect-a-us-president-and-a-governor-of-california/
by Jon Rappoport
October 25, 2018

"One thing you have to understand about Mr. Zucker. What he does, he does for show. For ratings. If he could get away with claiming Trump met with Putin on the dark side of the moon to concoct a way to beat Hillary Clinton, he would run with it. If he could get away with claiming Arnold Schwarzenegger was the love child of Joseph Stalin and Greta Garbo, he would lead the evening newscast with it. He keeps selling the CNN Trump-Russia "investigation" because he's (barely) getting away with it and he thinks it'll keep drawing an audience.

In April, CNN boss Jeff Zucker told the New York Times, "The idea that politics is sport is undeniable, and we understood that and approached it that way." The "it" was certainly the 2016 presidential campaign.

Zucker always has understood politics in this corrupt way---and in the process, he helped elect a US president and a California governor.

Who is Trump's most consistent media enemy now? CNN is right up there.

But Jeff Zucker, CNN's boss, was the man who launched The Apprentice, starring Donald Trump, at NBC, in 2004.

In other words, Zucker happened to play a major role in electing Donald Trump. There is no getting around it.

Washington Post, October 2, 2016: "Looking for someone specific to hold responsible for the improbable rise of Donald Trump?"

"Although there are many options, you could do worse than to take a hard look at Jeff Zucker, president of CNN Worldwide."

"It was Zucker, after all, who as the new head of NBC Entertainment gave Trump his start in reality TV with 'The Apprentice' and then milked the real estate developer's uncanny knack for success for all it was worth in ratings and profits."

"And it succeeded wildly - boosting the network's ratings, as well as Zucker's [and Trump's] meteoric career. In turn, under Zucker, the show gave rise to 'Celebrity Apprentice,' another Trump extravaganza. And, in turn, Zucker became the head of NBC overall."

"The show [The Apprentice] was built as a virtually nonstop advertisement for the Trump empire and lifestyle," according to the book 'Trump Revealed,' by Washington Post journalists Marc Fisher and Michael Kranish."

"The executive [Jeff Zucker] rode the Trump steed hard. When the reality-TV star was preparing to marry Melania Knauss in 2005, Zucker wanted to broadcast the wedding live. (Trump, uncharacteristically, declined.)"

"But make no mistake: There would be no Trump-the-politician without Trump-the-TV-star. One begot the other."

POLITICS IS TELEVISION, AND TELEVISION IS POLITICS.

If you're looking for a person who embodies that fake version of reality most purely, you need look no further than Jeff Zucker.

Despite his network's present hatred of Trump, Zucker would give Trump his own show right now if he wanted one.

For ratings and ad revenues.

Let's go back in time and consider another event, one which I've analyzed in great detail. It took place on NBC in 2004, when Zucker was the head of the network's entertainment division. Keep in mind that The Tonight Show, with Jeno Leno, was a prime piece of the entertainment division then. What Leno pulled off in 2004 had to have the OK from Zucker, because it was a highly unusual move, a distinctly unethical move.

What happened when an actor wanted to launch a political career and become a governor? The whole news division of a major network surrendered itself, for one ratings-busting night, to a talk show.

This is how Arnold Schwarzenegger won the California governor's race. It all came down to his famous appearance on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, where he announced that he was going to run.

I obtained a copy of show, watched it many times, transcribed the dialogue, and noted the audience reactions.

Breaking down the segments revealed what happens when news and entertainment and PR and political advocacy all blur together in a single wave.

The show had been hyped as the moment when Arnold would announce whether he was going to run in the recall election against California Governor Gray Davis.

The public anticipation was sky-high. No one seemed concerned that NBC was turning over its news division, for one night, to its entertainment division. Jeff Zucker, head of NBC entertainment, was all in.

Turning over network news to network entertainment was precisely the subject of the best movie ever made about television, Paddy Chayefsky's Network. That didn't register with the national media.

If Arnold decided to run for governor, he wouldn't be announcing it at a stale press conference at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, after a brief introduction from The Snoozer, LA Mayor Richard Riordan. No, Arnold would obtain a rocket boost from Jay Leno.

Keep in mind that talk shows warm up and prep their studio audiences to act and respond with amphetamine-like enthusiasm.

And then that audience transmits its glow and howling racket to the wider television audience, thereby blowing an artificially enhanced event across the landscape.

On the night of August 6, 2003, Tonight Show host Jay Leno devoted two six-minute segments to The Arnold.

Of course, it was more than an interview. Jay had been touting this night as the occasion for a key revelation in the comic play called The California Recall Election.

Arnold would say yes or Arnold would say no. He would run for governor or he would decline.

Bigger than conventional news, Arnold strode out on to Jay's stage. A Tonight Show camera picked him up from a grossly complimentary low angle, making him appear even larger and more physically imposing than he is. Jay was positioned standing behind him, applauding, lending an affirmative gloss to the entrance. Already, it looked and felt political.

This was not a beginning; the impression was of something already in motion, a train to catch up with.

As the man of the hour sat down next to Jay, he commented that there was a big audience in the house ("Can you believe all these people here?") and, capping his first gambit, he stated that every one of them was running for governor of California. Ha-ha. (At one point, there were 135 gubernatorial candidates.)

Quickly, Jay gets down to business. The business of making the evening extra-special: "Now, I don't think we've ever had this much press at The Tonight Show for any---[let's look at] our press room---normally [the press] sit in the audience."

Cut to a stark room, shot from above. About 40 reporters doing almost nothing at tables. Obviously, the room was set up for this event.

Jay cracks a couple of jokes about the press gaggle, lowers his voice and turns his full attention to Arnold: "...it's been weeks...and people going back and forth...taken you awhile, and you said you would come here tonight and tell us your decision. So what is your decision?"

Arnold replies, "Well, Jay, after thinking for a long time, my decision is..."

The sound cuts off, and the TV screen displays an old PLEASE STAND BY notice. Thick white letters against a background of an ancient station test pattern from the 1950s. A mechanical tone plays for several seconds.

The audience laughs. There is applause, too.

Cut back to Jay and Arnold. Arnold says, "That's why I decided that way." Big audience laughter.

Jay, going along---as if Arnold had spilled the beans during a momentary technical malfunction---shouts, "Right, good, right! I tell you I am shocked! I can't believe it! I can't believe it!"

Jay then starts out from the bottom again. "[Whether you're going to run has been] in my monologue...it's been good for, like, a thousand jokes over the last couple of weeks..."

Once more, he gently poses the question. "What are you going to do?" It's still too early for an answer, and Jay knows it.

Arnold wants another false start. He's planned it.

"Well, my decision obviously is a very difficult decision to make, you know...it was the [most] difficult decision that I've made in my entire life, except the one in 1978 when I decided to get a bikini wax."

Laughter, applause, whistles.

The studio audience warms to the fact that Arnold glimpses an absurdity about the whole proceeding.

"He's our Arnie, laughing the way we laugh. Hell, all we've got are laughs in this life, and our boy isn't going to go stuffed-shirt on us."

Arnold then gives his rehearsed political speech.

He reflects that California was a grand land of opportunity when he arrived in 1968. It was the greatest state in the greatest nation.

However, now the atmosphere in California is "disastrous," he says. There is a "disconnect" (thank you, pop psych 101) between the people and the politicians.

"The politicians are fiddling, fumbling, and failing."

Very big applause follows. The audience is doing its job.

Close by, off camera, we hear Jay thumping his own personal hand claps. The host is pumping his studio crowd and giving his seal of approval to a remark whose veracity is supposed to be tested by the recall election itself.

And there is a phalanx of teen-age girls screaming at a very high pitch in the studio. They're adding a major element of hysterical enthusiasm. Where did they come from? Are they a legitimate Arnold demographic? Were they pulled out of a Valley mall to paper the crowd? Do they migrate from talk show to talk show? From this point forward, they'll play a huge role in every audience outburst.

Arnold gathers steam. He tells one and all that the people of California are doing their job.

They're working hard.

Paying their taxes.

Raising their families.

But the politicians are not doing their job.

Now he executes a blend around the far turn: "And the man that is failing the people more than anyone is [Governor] Gray Davis!"

The crowd goes wild. The girls scream as if they're at a kiddie rock concert in the magic presence of four sixteen-year-old pretty boys. It's eerie.

And now the audience is suddenly on edge.

They can handle the juice. The longed-for result.

Arnold senses it.

He lets the audience-hysteria roller coaster die down and then, taking it up to heaven, announces that, he, Arnold is...

Yes...

GOING TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA.

Boom. Bang. Pow. Zow.

The studio audience cracks the ceiling. Wilder than wild. The girls are shrieking walls of sound way above high C. Undoubtedly, the show is flashing applause signs.

Jay shakes his head and grins like a pro hypster who's just witnessed a very, very good variation on bait and switch. As if Arnold was supposed to say no, but now he's saying yes.

The Tonight Show band lays down some heavy chords.

Jay shouts, "There you go! There you go! That woke 'em up! That woke 'em up!" We cut to the press room, and sure enough, the reporters are now on phones, typing at their keyboards. The story is live and good to go. A global event is underway.

Amid the roar and the music, Jay, smiling broadly and wisely, shakes his finger at Arnold and says to him, "You know something?"

It seems Jay's about to utter, "That's the best damn switcheroo I ever saw!" But he doesn't do it. Instead, as the noise abates, he says it's a good time to go to a break.

The band plows into a funk riff, under the applause, and the show cuts to commercial.

The sea has parted. The consecration has been performed.

The ax felled the tree in the forest, and everyone heard it.

Marshall McLuhan rolled over in his grave, sat up, grinned, lit a cigar, and sipped a little brandy.

After the commercials, in the next six-minute segment, Jay and Arnold attain a few more highs of audience madness.

High one: Arnold mentions that 1.6 million Californians have signed the recall petition and are saying, "We are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore!" Wowee.

No one notices or remembers this line was made massively famous in Network, the bitter satire on news as entertainment.

Is it remotely possible Arnold recalls the 1976 Paddy Chayefsky film and its newsman, Howard Beale, who survives a ratings dive by delivering a delirious populist message on air, and becomes, for a short time, the most revered man in America?

Is it possible Arnold knows the TV network portrayed in the film gave its news division to its entertainment division---exactly what's transpiring right there, for the moment, on The Tonight Show?

High two: Arnold clarifies his message to all politicians everywhere. "Do your job for the people and do it well, or otherwise you're out. Hasta la vista, baby!" Zowee.

High three: After telling the crowd they all know Gray Davis can run a dirty campaign "better than anyone"---and that Davis has been selling off pieces of California to special interests---Arnold says with conviction and confidence, "I do not have to bow to any special interests; I have plenty of money; no one can pay me off; trust me, no one." Audience hysteria. They love that he's rich.

High four: Arnold says of Davis, "Everyone knows this man has to go!" Huge roar.

High five: Arnold plays a final pun card. "I will pump up Sacramento!" Yet another roar.

The band takes it out with more funk. Jay stands up and goes over and hugs Arnold, in profile, near his desk, and follows him closely toward an exit at stage left. Jay starts to whisper something in Arnold's ear, but pulls back and smiles and, still on camera, applauds Arnold along with the audience.

It's show biz in a bottle. Jay, Arnold, the crowd, the band, bouncing off one another and yielding the effect of absolute (synthetic) thrill.

The Tonight Show provided the moment for a globally famous actor to decide to run for office in the same state where the show originates. In the entertainment capital of the world. In front of the clear prime-cut admiration of the host.

And the studio audience, that specialized creature from whose maw instant credibility can be coaxed and birthed in seconds---was very, very ready to go. All along.

Imagine an advance man pre-selling this kind of PR stunt:

"I know a guy who can introduce your message to the softest, wildest, water-cooler crowd this side of paradise."

"Oh yeah? How big a crowd?"

"Only a thousand or two. But they're instantly hooked up to, say, ten million people in the target area. It's as infectious as Ebola."

"Come on."

"And that's not all. I've got a host for that softest, wildest audience, and he has the whole world in the palm of his hand. When he exposes your message---for the first time anywhere---and when his audience goes nuts with glee, nothing will stand in your way. Your opponents will go down like bowling pins."

"Too good to be true."

"Wrong. And let me point out what I'm saving you from. If you tried to launch your message at a shopping center or a press club or a hotel ballroom or construction site or on a movie-studio sound stage, you could get laughed right out of town. Really. Because, let's face it, you do have a pretty vapid message when you boil it down. You need a unique venue, where the joke and the camp and the craziness are all folded into the event itself, and the shock and surprise and hoopla are integrated. You need an audience that celebrates bad and good jokes as all good, and the host has the ability to marry up every shred of this bizarre happening and take his crowd to orgasm."

"And the contagion factor?"

"The audience in the television studio and the viewing audience at home are One. My boy, what stuns and delights the former incorporates itself into the living cells of the latter. The home audience is terrified of being left out. The host and his in-studio crowd give instant universal legitimacy to the moment. Believe me, it's irresistible."

"Like that McLuhan thing. The audience becomes the actor."

"Precisely."

That is how it happened. That is how Arnold Schwarzenegger obtained his billion-dollar ad on Jay Leno, on August 6, 2003, and that was when he won the recall election. There was no counter-strategy for it.

Governor Gray Davis was left out in the cold.

The announcement of Arnold's candidacy was the end of the election.

In the aftermath, media pundits did not punch up this piece of mind control with any serious heat; nor did they immediately seek a heavy investigation of NBC's ethics in allowing the Leno-Arnold event to take place.

The Tonight Show was a perfect killing ground: Arnold, the earnest and powerful and Germanically jolly and occasionally self-deprecating soul, aware of the comic-book component of his success; Jay, the jokester, who can work as a homer and straight man at the drop of a hat; and Jay's audience, willingly propelled into the late-night nexus of "we'll laugh so hard at any old damn thing we'll make a cosmic celebration out of it."

Something out of nothing.

GE (then the owner of NBC): "We bring good things to life."

An election campaign message was passed, hand to hand, mind to mind, adrenal gland to adrenal gland, from a concocted, groomed, cultivated, prepackaged television studio audience to every voter-district in California, and out to the whole world.

When people show up in the studio to see Leno in person, they soon understand the game. They're not just there as happy onlookers. They're drawn into the process. They're offered a trade-off.

If they become active shills for the show right there in the studio, they'll become part of the story. They'll attain new status. Their laughs and squeals and shrieks and rebound guffaws, their revved-up salvational applause, at those moments when a guest segment or a joke is falling flat, will provide key segue and filler and affirmation and speed candy for the larger audience at home. It's a group collaboration.

Who cares---except when a fading movie action hero suddenly says he's going to take over the reins of California?

In the television studio, and in millions of homes, the audience roared and helped Arnold go for his coronation. They experienced a reasonable facsimile of emotional torque and busted a move that showered sparks around Arnold's head and pushed him through a porthole into an ozone that just might have been the closest thing they'd ever find to immortality.

On October 10, three days after Arnold scored number one in the recall vote count, The NY Times ran a piece by Bill Carter headlined, "NBC Supports the Politically Partisan Leno."

But Carter's story was merely about Jay, on the night of October 7, taking the stage in Los Angeles to introduce Arnold as the recall election winner.

THIS was the issue? This was the barrier that Leno had crossed? Carter mentioned nothing about those 12 minutes on August 6th, on The Tonight Show, when Arnold announced he was running and thereby sewed up the election.

Jeff Zucker, then the head of entertainment at NBC (NOW THE BOSS AT CNN), told Carter he was aware Jay was going to introduce Arnold at the victory celebration. "I did not and do not have a problem with it," he said.

Zucker noted that Jay was a private citizen with all the accruing rights of same.

Not a word from Zucker either, about the propriety of Leno hosting Arnold's campaign launch on August 6, on The Tonight Show.

The Studio Audience, on the night of August 6, 2003, fingered and chose and elected a governor of California.

Jay Leno has gone on to thousands of other jokes.

But he'll never forget that one.

And neither will Zucker.

He helped elect Arnold. And he made Trump a global star of the first magnitude on The Apprentice, and thereby helped him win the presidency.

If you like interesting coincidences, both the Leno Moment and launch of The Apprentice happened in 2004. And when Donald Trump left The Apprentice in 2015, who took over as the host?

Arnold Schwarzenegger, of course."

Dennis Leahy

25th October 2018, 18:50

T Smith, you have done a nice job of stating your argument. You open the door for dialogue, rather than presenting an emotion-driven opinion.

I think that democrats (it isn't "The Left") lost an election that appeared to be in the bag for hillary, and collectively flipped-out (see numerous emotional statements by rachel maddow and michael moore, pink hat marches, etc.) At the same time, hillary needed to cover-up her criminal exposure (thus the creation of 'Russiagate') and the democrat party was being internally shattered by hillary and the dnc cheating the bern out of his chance to be the other candidate in a race predefined to be 2-way. That was a lot of emotion to dissipate. Stupidly, yet predictably, the democrats have gone after trump's personality, ego, narcissism, bad make-up, bad hair. Why didn't they go after substance?

I believe that the biggest reason is that in terms of major policy, especially foreign policy, trump was not different than obama. g w bush's policies of making torture "legal" and of drone bombing, creating alQaeda, and sticking to the zionist plans for the Middle East were followed by obama covering-up but continuing torture, killed a US citizen simply declared as a terrorist, and far far exceeded bush's drone bombing, killed Ghadaffi and destroyed Libya, nurtured alQaeda, created ISIS and spin-off mercenary armies, attacked Syria, aided and abetted israel's genocide of Palestinians and theft of Palestine, outrageously increased military spending, etc.

So, now trump comes along and says he's pro-torture, increases the military budget, echoes the same anti-Iran and pro-zionist israel rhetoric as his predecessors, steps into the "greater israel" zionist agenda, attacks Syria, looks the other way as the israelis commit slow-motion genocide on Palestinians, declares undying love for zionist israel, moves the US embassy to Jerusalem, and arms saudi arabia and looks the other way as they destroy Yemen and kill tens of thousands of Yemeni citizens...

So, the democrats can't really say much about the horrific, terroristic, imperialistic US foreign policy when their guy just did the same for 8 years. The democrats can't say anything! So, they resort to identity-politics and attack trump's boorish demeanor, smarmy attitude, and cartoonish looks (the low-hanging fruit.)

You will not see the democrats attacking trump on the substance of foreign policy. When you see people that attack trump's (and obama's, and bush's, and clinton's, and bushes, ...) foreign policy, you will have found an actual member of "The Left."

The foreign policy of the USA, INC. has been on the exact same trajectory, the exact same agenda, for decades, through democrat and republican presidents. That alone should be enough for any discerning seeker of truth to see that these presidents step into this agenda, they don't create it. The agenda followed by the d and the r factions of the duopoly was written by the same group that committed 9/11: the Deep State. That is important to note.

trump is different, I'll grant you that, but not in terms of foreign policy.

If you want to get into domestic policy issues where trump also echoes his democrat and republican counterparts, look at the energy corporations that all presidents pander to, the increased military budget, the corporatist, ecocidal, and surreal dismantling of environmental safeguards, support for for-profit prisons, tacit support of monsanto/bayer and allowing the national food sector to be controlled by pro-GMO investors and the US food supply infested with GMO... and, if you've noticed, we are being sprayed aerially, daily, regardless who sits in the big chair, showing that that agenda was also written "by others" (deep state/shadow government.)

I know that q and trump supporters want to underscore how different trump is. If you take away the quirks, ego, personality, and style issues, and focus instead on actions, (especially on the zionist Middle East script), I don't see any significant difference.

onawah

25th October 2018, 19:25

On the subject of voter fraud, this message in Judicial Watch's email update today:
"We have all heard about voter fraud and attempts by liberal media organs like The New York Times and leftist politicians to dismiss it as a nonexistent problem.

But voter fraud is in fact real, widespread, and substantial to the point that it can and does decide elections. It also drives honest citizens out of the democratic process and breeds distrust in our government.

I, like most Americans, believe that voting is a highly valued right and serious responsibility of American citizenship. And clean, accurate voter registration rolls, as well as commonsense laws requiring voter ID help stop voter fraud and voting by individuals ineligible to vote.

That’s why Judicial Watch’s filed lawsuits against the states of Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky that resulted in those states agreeing to comply with that National Voter Registration Act (NVRA) by cleaning their voter rolls.

But there’s more to do. You see, there are many other states that have not been cleaning their voter rolls as required by law and we’ve issued notices to a dozen of them that they need to comply with the law – or perhaps face a lawsuit from Judicial Watch. "

My feeling is that no one really knows the answers to these questions except a very few. The rest of us can only speculate, and the more we become convinced we are right at whatever conclusion we may arrive at, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, the more defensive and less reasonable we become.
Jon Rappaport (and he is no doubt much more informed than most of us here) thinks that Trump is the latest in a MSM (and I dare say the usual suspects who back the MSM) victory just as much as former movie star Ronald Reagan or Obama or Jerry Brown or Arnold Schwarzenegger were. And that's one more reason why I think Trump is simply a puppet of one faction of the controllers who currently have the upper hand simply because their biggest competing faction went too far and got their hands too dirty to pass muster even in the current mess that is US politics. And the outcome of that election was determined by the same usual suspects, whose ability and motivation to highjack voting results among all the other things they have highjacked should not be underestimated. IMHO
It's pretty apparent that Trump became what he is in large part due to the fortune, grooming and schooling he got from his father. His ties to the Vatican were discussed on the forum some time ago, and I think his backing of Israel have validated those concerns. That also helps explain who backs him and counters the argument that he is an independent maverick, though that cover has been working for him pretty well. The controllers knew that people are sick and tired of politicians, so they had to invent someone who didn't look like a politician, but could be manipulated just as easily.

update: Generally the spin has been that the Left or Right may have been controlling the vote for one reason or the other, but it seems to me more likely that the controllers behind both would be the ones deciding the results.

Praxis

25th October 2018, 21:18

T Smith, you have done a nice job of stating your argument. You open the door for dialogue, rather than presenting an emotion-driven opinion. . . . .

I know that q and trump supporters want to underscore how different trump is. If you take away the quirks, ego, personality, and style issues, and focus instead on actions, (especially on the zionist Middle East script), I don't see any significant difference.

Preach it Brother Dennis!
As always, you are insightful and even mannered in your analysis.

Obama was to the the left what Trump is to the right. It scratches all the right itches without actually changing the direction we are heading in.

As a side note:

Why did Paul lock this thread? And then why and who did the unlocking of the thread?

ThePythonicCow

25th October 2018, 22:20

Why did Paul lock this thread? And then why and who did the unlocking of the thread?
I locked the original This might be Trump’s boldest lie yet for reasons explained in my closing post there (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104742-This-might-be-Trump--s-boldest-lie-yet&p=1255660&viewfull=1#post1255660). That thread remains closed.

A day later, chancy started this second thread, under the same tread title.

DeDukshyn

25th October 2018, 22:53

Trump seems to have garnered a far greater "savior" mentality in his supporters than I have seen in quite some time

Oh come now, even more than the God Emperor Obama?

I don't see this at all, Obama had far more "Savior" followers.

I really laughed about people who actually believed Obama would stop the wars and bring all the soldiers home, so I definitely saw that as well with Obama - no argument there.

From just before his election -- I do agree, Obama had more people believing that he was something that he wasn't. That seemed to fade quickly though.

With Trump there isn't any more in number, but by "greater" I actually meant that those who have it, have it in very high intensity (which is reflected in the current division we are seeing), which by looking back at my post, it does indicate that correctly, but I could have worded it more clearly ... :)

T Smith

25th October 2018, 23:29

I know that q and trump supporters want to underscore how different trump is. If you take away the quirks, ego, personality, and style issues, and focus instead on actions, (especially on the zionist Middle East script), I don't see any significant difference.

My hunch is -- and as onawah pointed out -- this is purely speculation, especially on this point, is that Trump actually agrees with and/or is ignorant of some those policies more that he's beholden to them. I could be wrong.

But yes, I agree. Take the left back, Dennis! Let's have this discussion instead of spoon-feeding us tomfoolery packaged as opposition.

DNA

25th October 2018, 23:58

bobme

26th October 2018, 00:52

With all due respect DNA, Trump has stated his Iran change in regime leadership change.

I heard him state it. And I am deaf. (leagally).

As Dennis said, to paraphase, the polititions,and presidents, are all of the same clothe.

chancy

26th October 2018, 01:55

There is no real president when the deep state is in control.

Trump is the first REAL President since maybe Jimmy Carter.

If you want to know if a President is being controlled by the deep state, look at how many countries they have either invaded or instigated regime change in.

Jimmy Carter didn't invade a country while he was President, so it is possible and probable in my opinion that he did not bow to the deep state and which is why he only served one term.

Trump has not invaded a country or instigated regime change in any country since he has been in office.

This screams that he has not been a proper puppet and is why the NPC culture as instructed by mainstream media is so up in arms over Trump.

All you little NPC liberals want to cry foul over the environment and perceived prejudiced over border policy but you guys certainly cheer Obama when he drone bombs the hell out of the third world while invading and causing regime change on multiple fronts.

All very deep state friendly practices.

Hello DNA:

How do you take over a country without shooting a bullet???
This is a very serious question so I don't need a smart ass reply. Thanks

The answer is: FREE TRADE

Trump took over Mexico and Canada with this new usmca deal that replaced nafta ( the original free trade deal)
In fact any FREE TRADE deal does the same thing.
I am sure you have never been to Canada BUT if you come to Canada it has most of the stores and businesses that the usa has.

Now if you go into the usa how many stores and businesses are there from Canada using this as an example??

No one can deny that we have been taken over by the usa decades ago.

So to answer your question YES trump has invaded a few countries already.
chancy

ThePythonicCow

26th October 2018, 03:01

With all due respect DNA, Trump has stated his Iran change in regime leadership change.
Trump states such yes.

But meanwhile, the regime change operation in Syria has failed, and Assad and the Syrian government is regaining control of Syria.

Syria has regained control of its portion of the Golan Heights from Israel, something I would not have imagined possible two years ago. Moreover, this happened without a major military conflict.

The armed standoff, ongoing since 1951, at the 38th parallel in Korea is winding down, with arms and landmines being removed.

No major new regime changes have occurred. Iran is not seriously threatened with major internal "terrorist" events, "no fly zones", or the other typical markers of impending regime change imposed by brutal foreign force.

If one goes by deeds, rather than words, perhaps one has a little more reason to be optimistic.

onawah

26th October 2018, 03:56

DNA has put me on his ignore list, which is fine with me, but since he will not be reading this (unless someone quotes me and he reads that, he may not know that I am calling him out on the following, which is fine too, but I hope it will not be ignored by other members and the Mods:

All you little NPC liberals want to cry foul over the environment and perceived prejudiced over border policy but you guys certainly cheer Obama when he drone bombs the hell out of the third world while invading and causing regime change on multiple fronts.

Just who are the "little NPC liberals" on Avalon that DNA thinks he is addressing, and what gives him the right to apply such demeaning, belittling terms to other Avalon members?
Comparing Avalon members with the wits to question issues which the public at large may simply accept as gospel from the MSM is insulting to the whole forum.
Complaints about having to listen to the MSM denounce Trump just doesn't ring true. The side of the MSM that is controlled by one faction of the controllers is always denouncing the POTUS, whoever it is, while the other defends. That's just how the game is played, and it's nothing new. In any case FOX news has been praising Trump to the skies and apparently they outstripped CNN quite some ago as far as viewership goes. And once the truth about some of the Trump Admin's unwise policies sink in, no doubt there will be a migration from FOX back to CNN, and once followers of CNN realize the truth about the Clintons, etc. there will be a migration from CNN to FOX. It won't change the game one whit.
Labeling those who question the whole game, rather than taking sides, as "little" is just obnoxious, and asserting that anyone here who questions Trump's Admin would "cheer Obama when he drone bombs the hell out of the third world while invading and causing regime change on multiple fronts" is just trying to pick a fight and doesn't care at all what kind of accusations he is flinging or who he is flinging them at.
If this kind of sociopath behavior is allowed to continue, I for one will no longer care to participate in this forum.
A lot of that kind of bad behavior has been stopped on Avalon, for which I am truly thankful, but clearly not enough as yet to send a clear message about name calling, about having respect and practicing simple good manners, all of which is stuff we should all have learned in kindergarten.
I hope others here who have been working toward having a grown up conversation will also speak out.

TargeT

26th October 2018, 04:29

Just who are the "little NPC liberals" on Avalon that DNA thinks he is addressing, and what gives him the right to apply such demeaning, belittling terms to other Avalon members?

Try re-reading his post with out taking things personally, certainly there are members on this forum that approximate his description.?(not many)

I think you took this too personally, and I dont even read that statement as particularly directed to Avalon members either...

Dont add words where they are not, viewing things objectively is far more productive

Daozen

26th October 2018, 05:30

Lots of people are quoting me in this thread.... I don't have time to reply to all of these posts quickly, as I have things to do...

BUT...

One of the weirdest rebuttals to Trump-skepticism is the accusation that anyone who dislikes the guy is a 'lefty','Marxist', MSM reader....whatever... I didn't support Obama either.

All we're saying is, don't worship the guy and put him on a pedestal. You guys are spending hours online defending him. Seems like a total waste of energy.

Second, talking down to someone cos they don't share your political views is the last way to get them onside...

"If you don't want to buy this ipad you're ignorant and gullible"

A salesman who talks to his customers like they're stupid will not sell much product. Trump is the product, you guys have got to sell him to us. The narrative goes something like this: "Trump, a Washington outsider, swept into power on the back of the public vote. He outwitted the Illuminati and stole into public office, where he's currently 'fighting the cabal'". The MSM are attacking him, but our simple boy from Queens is holding his ground.

OK,... I'm listening. Now sell us that line. Far be it from me to tell you guys how to accomplish your mission, but a good salesman creates rapport with the prospective customer.

How to Be a Good Salesperson

Identify and stick to your buyer personas.
Use a measurable, repeatable sales process.
Know your product.
Review your pipeline objectively.
Find shortcuts and hacks.
Practice active listening.
Manage your emotions.
Follow up.

ThePythonicCow

26th October 2018, 05:31

onawah

26th October 2018, 05:34

I disagree. Why would such a remark go in a post on Avalon if it wasn't meant for Avalon members? Your remark, Target, implies that DNA is using Avalon as his platform to berate anyone who might be reading Avalon. If that is the case, I think it's a misuse of the space here, and cowardly besides, since only members could reply to such posts.
If it was posted on a forum full of NPC liberals, the remark: "All you little NPC liberals" would be more in context, but would still be demeaning and condescending.
Calling someone "little" means the target is lesser than, immature, and so regardless of who is the target, it is rude and obnoxious.
It's possible a few such people who belong to this forum are "NPC liberals" but I sure don't remember seeing much input from them, if any.
The real point is, the remark is in keeping with the same mentality that has been creating so much disruption for too long here on Avalon, of categorizing anyone who has something to say that is less than flattering about the Trump Admin, however reasonable or well founded or documented, regardless of whether they are actually Left or not. As if someone who does not align to either side could only be Left leaning. As if no one could possibly be uninvested in taking a side or unbiased or neutral. As if there was no other reality than that of Left vs Right.
And I don't care what the subject is, name calling and belittling of others should not be tolerated.
It diverts from the subject at hand and adds nothing to truth seeking.
It's something that shills do constantly, and that fact alone speaks volumes.

Just who are the "little NPC liberals" on Avalon that DNA thinks he is addressing, and what gives him the right to apply such demeaning, belittling terms to other Avalon members?

Try re-reading his post with out taking things personally, certainly there are members on this forum that approximate his description.?(not many)

I think you took this too personally, and I dont even read that statement as particularly directed to Avalon members either...

Dont add words where they are not, viewing things objectively is far more productive

Daozen

26th October 2018, 06:14

ThePythonicCow

26th October 2018, 06:32

If there was a "thumbs down" button, I'd have pressed it for the previous post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104782-Re-This-might-be-Trump--s-boldest-lie-yet&p=1256024&viewfull=1#post1256024).

onawah

26th October 2018, 06:35

:bump:Great post, Joe. Please go into more detail, if you are so moved and have time, with some links for documentation of your many good points. Thanks!

I believe that Trump was brought in to pump the brakes on the luciferian NWO that simply took things too far too fast. However, he still represents a much nicer (non baby killing/trafficking, non-luciferian) faction. It is still the same NWO rollout of the space based - virtual computer based economy. This, in my opionion, is an improvement over the old luciferian way, but still far removed from our true human potential of a free and prosperous humanity.

Jayke

26th October 2018, 08:04

To the environmentalists, what are the implications of ‘The Water Infrastructure Act 2018’ Trump has recently signed?

roNkQP8pfq8
On the surface level, this looks like it’s going to be great for American infrastructure and agricultural development, which could bring a huge amount of greenery back to California, for instance. Has anyone had the time to read through this Act to discover if there’s any hidden or duplicitous content? What am I not seeing about this Water Infrastructure deal, because at the moment, it certainly appears to be MAGA by Trump, a man following through on his campaign promises.

T Smith

26th October 2018, 11:42

I still don't get why someone would spend hours and hours of their life angrily defending someone online, keeping a constant watch out for people who dislike Trump, and use the same strawman tactics again and again in threads. Some of the Trump defenders here must spend hours a week doing this....?

For why? For what purpose? Whence do they get their motives?

It is somewhat of a compliment that someone should have decided that Avalon is in need of such close attention.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Okay, how about this. I can't speak for the UK, but here in the US this is such a divisive powder keg, people are afraid to even discuss at the dinner table with extended family. In many cases it's brother against brother, husband against wife. People who are sensitive to the underlying political tensions are censoring their ideas and thoughts to avoid the risk of offending (or worse). Marriages of 40 years have ended over this issue. Literally. Life long friendships, terminated. There are some commentators who rightly observe we are on the verge of a civil war here in the US. That may be an overstatement, but you get the gist.

Bottom line, I would say some people would disagree with you and say it isn't a waste of time to try to bridge the divide, to try to persuade friends and loved ones who are drifting further and further away from their world view to at least understand it. In my experience, 9 times out of 10, arguments, or divorces, or the termination of lifelong friendships are more about generated misunderstandings than they are about genuine political differences. For all intents and purposes, we all want the same thing....

Perhaps some people feel conversation and dialog are valuable where such a vicious divide exists and has been sown ? (probably by design by social engineers who are experts at balkanizing populations to manage the masses and serve their agendas).

Just my two cents... (and five minutes)...

Kind Regards,

T Smith

DNA

26th October 2018, 12:46

All you little NPC liberals want to cry foul over the environment and perceived prejudiced over border policy but you guys certainly cheer Obama when he drone bombs the hell out of the third world while invading and causing regime change on multiple fronts.

All very deep state friendly practices.

Just who are the "little NPC liberals" on Avalon that DNA thinks he is addressing, and what gives him the right to apply such demeaning, belittling terms to other Avalon members?

Try re-reading his post with out taking things personally, certainly there are members on this forum that approximate his description.?(not many)

I think you took this too personally, and I dont even read that statement as particularly directed to Avalon members either...

Dont add words where they are not, viewing things objectively is far more productive

I read DNA's post differently than you do, TargeT.

DNA says "you little NPC liberals [who] want to cry foul over the environment".

The word "you" suggests DNA thinks he is speaking to some such people, meaning some the members and guests of this forum who might be expected to read his post.

The word "liberals" suggests that DNA is speaking to those who might expect to be labeled "liberals" (whether or not they would choose that label themselves.)

The reference to crying "foul over the environment" suggests that again that he is speaking to some of us, such as onawah, who are staunch defenders of the environment.

The words "little NPC" suggest, well more than that, state, derision of such people.

Such explicitly derisive and divisive commentary hinders the discussion here, and is abusive to some good members here.

Whether or not DNA had onawah explicitly in mind as he wrote the above, I have no idea. I don't read minds.

But ... DNA ... you should have known that such commentary was more incendiary than it was illuminating.

Yes, DNA, both "sides" of our "esteemed" leaders (appear to) stand over some very dark deeds. But don't attack any of those posting to this forum, in such a personally demeaning manner, on account of their calling out this, but not that, dark deed of the moment. Well, more generally, don't initiate such attacks on fellow members for much of any reason at all.

I will recommend to the Avalon Moderators that you, DNA, receive a brief "vacation" from posting here, so that you may have an opportunity to consider these concerns. What the moderators will do remains of course to be seen.

I thought NPC liberal was spot on. It is just pointing out the lack of ability in so far as it relates to critical thinking.

These folks are told on facebook or twitter that Trump is ruining the environment so they react as prescribed and repeat mantra "Trump Bad".

Facebook and Twitter with their recent purging of Trump voices and critical thinkers should have been an alarm that was not to be ignored that Trump represents the good guys.

I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible for those folks on our forum who were deprived critical thinking abilities.

You see folks, if a voice is silenced by those who are evil and really in control, then that voice is representing truth.

I want to ask a serious question to the liberals on this forum.

Do you really think the powers that be who are silencing everything from the Right have your best interests at heart?

Do you think the thought police who are controlling who can speak on Youtube, facebook and Twitter really have your best intentions at heart?

Who in history has controlled the media and the narrative to such a degree and turned out to be the good guy?

Daozen

26th October 2018, 14:20

Bottom line, I would say some people would disagree with you and say it isn't a waste of time to try to bridge the divide, to try to persuade friends and loved ones who are drifting further and further away from their world view to at least understand it. In my experience, 9 times out of 10, arguments, or divorces, or the termination of lifelong friendships are more about generated misunderstandings than they are about genuine political differences. For all intents and purposes, we all want the same thing....

I understand where you are coming from T, but the majority of the posts in the Trump threads (including this one) do not sound like friends persuading friends. The central argument seems to go "you are a brainwashed MSM viewer if you do not support Trump". That is in no way building bridges... neither in tone nor in content.

Something more collectivized it at work.

onawah

26th October 2018, 14:24

Conversation and dialog are always helpful.
Insults and condescension never are. DNA never stops pointing the finger, yet he forgets that those who are viewing this situation objectively see all those four fingers pointing right back at him.
As much as Trump lovers are being censored by MSM, to try to censor those who are trying to have a real conversation is just doing the same thing, and doing the puppet masters bidding; it becomes a Punch and Judy show.
If such repeated, shill like attacks on Avalon members is allowed to continue, I would like to know why DNA is being given so much more latitude than other members.
It matters not whether shill like attacks are directed toward what is perceived as being Left thinking or Right thinking.
There are shills targeting both sides without exception.
Which is the whole strategy of the controllers in a nutshell--divide and conquer. BTW, the reasoning behind Daozen's comment about so much shill-like attacking being directed at Avalon being a compliment is that the controllers must think Avalon is having a lot of influence, and so therefore we have become a target of their sabotage.
I don't know if that is true or not, but it certainly wasn't meant to be an attack on Avalon members.
Whereas DNA's comments obviously are, and fit the description of a shill to a "T". .

Perhaps some people feel conversation and dialog are valuable where such a vicious divide exists and has been sown ? (probably by design by social engineers who are experts at balkanizing populations to manage the masses and serve their agendas).

Just my two cents... (and five minutes)...

Kind Regards,

T Smith

onawah

26th October 2018, 14:31

Hervé

26th October 2018, 14:47

...

My satellite overview from across the pond:

The political emotional panorama within the population of the “States” is, in fact, fairly simple and divides rougly into 4 categories:

1) – the ones who consider the heiress of the Rockefeller/Bush criminal organization the best of all angels some god ever gifted the earth with;

2) – the ones who consider the billionaire opponent to # 1 the bestest of all angels some other god ever gifted humanity with;

3) – the ones who consider that # 2 is the lesser of two evils with respect to # 1 who is the evilest of all and,

4) – the ones constituting the silent majority and who are scratching their heads as to why the other three are at each others’ throats… However, since it is silent it’s never on the news and goes unnoticed by anyone including their own members… sigh.

To that, add the subversives fostered by all of the first 3 categories which, for each, range the whole spread of the grey spectrum from the darkest of black hats to the whitest shade of pale of the white hats… you know, deep state, hidden hands, puppeteers of all walks of life, secret societies, etc… and one gets the whole picture of the “Sanctions wielding USA.”

Of course, # 3 suffers the most in any debates because of being at the receiving end of # 1 and # 2 criticisms and attacks.

onawah

26th October 2018, 15:07

Also see this thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104808-Toronto-University-Fluoride-Study-Link-to-ADHD&p=1256087#post1256087

You could start here: http://stopthecrime.net/primewater.html and here: http://www.stopthecrime.net/2014%20water%20cylces.pdf
Deborah Tavares of StoptheCrime.net explains the difference between recycled sewer water and primary water, and why we are being denied the latter. Recycled water is not clean--it contains lots of chemicals including chlorine, fluoride and pharmaceutical drugs which treatment plants do not eliminate.

Similar to the strategy of riddling states with huge fault lines with hundreds of thousands of drilling and fracking and thermal tapping sites, polluting the water and increasing the dangers of catastrophic earthquakes and volcanic eruptions instead of investing in renewable energy and free energy technologies. Keeping the elite's depopulation agenda diverse and difficult to halt because it's being implemented on so many fronts.

Your typical environmentalist is not likely to be aware of this, but anyone who is a conspiracy theorist certainly should be, and puts conspiracy theorists into a much different, and much more knowledgeable category than standard Liberals. Just as being aware of agendas that originate from off-world and are directed at the entire population of planet Earth puts conspiracy theorists into a very different category than a typical Left or Right leaning person in any political discussion. There is a whole other dimension there that cannot be ignored without being very suspicious. It may be that some members of Avalon are not really conspiracy theorists and know nothing about such agendas, but if there are, at least there is hope that they will explore further, because a lot of evidence to that effect has been recorded here. Something the controllers and their shills would no doubt like to distract from.

To the environmentalists, what are the implications of ‘The Water Infrastructure Act 2018’ Trump has recently signed?

On the surface level, this looks like it’s going to be great for American infrastructure and agricultural development, which could bring a huge amount of greenery back to California, for instance. Has anyone had the time to read through this Act to discover if there’s any hidden or duplicitous content? What am I not seeing about this Water Infrastructure deal, because at the moment, it certainly appears to be MAGA by Trump, a man following through on his campaign promises.

onawah

26th October 2018, 15:15

And there is another category, which is quite small in number, but which deserves to have its' own slot: conspiracy theorists who are aware of what goes on behind the scenes, who understand the Illuminati have agendas the rest of the population cannot or will not acknowledge, and whose perspective therefore is (or should be) detached and removed from the less informed divisive debate, and much more realistic.
And that brings in the element of shills planted by TPTB to distract from the information and perspectives conspiracy theorists put out there for any to see who are willing to remove themselves from the ordinary fray and broaden their minds.

...

My satellite overview from across the pond:

The political emotional panorama within the population of the “States” is, in fact, fairly simple and divides rougly into 4 categories:

1) – the ones who consider the heiress of the Rockefeller/Bush criminal organization the best of all angels some god ever gifted the earth with;

2) – the ones who consider the billionaire opponent to # 1 the bestest of all angels some other god ever gifted humanity with;

3) – the ones who consider that # 2 is the lesser of two evils with respect to # 1 who is the evilest of all and,

4) – the ones constituting the silent majority and who are scratching their heads as to why the other three are at each others’ throats… However, since it is silent it’s never on the news and goes unnoticed by anyone including their own members… sigh.

To that, add the subversives fostered by all of the first 3 categories which, for each, range the whole spread of the grey spectrum from the darkest of black hats to the whitest shade of pale of the white hats… you know, deep state, hidden hands, puppeteers of all walks of life, secret societies, etc… and one gets the whole picture of the “Sanctions wielding USA.”

Of course, # 3 suffers the most in any debates because of being at the receiving end of # 1 and # 2 criticisms and attacks.

TargeT

26th October 2018, 16:14

:bowing:

And I don't care what the subject is, name calling and belittling of others should not be tolerated.

and cowardly besides

Uhmm, ok... so where is the line drawn?

Did you not just belittle, then a few words later say it shouldnt be done?

I'm not seeing anyone with clean hands here, give your energy where ever you will, I suppose.

Hervé

26th October 2018, 16:15

And there is another category, which is quite small in number...
[...]
From my point of view, these fall under:

To that, add the subversives fostered by all of the first 3 categories

onawah

26th October 2018, 16:17

Where did I belittle?

:bowing:

And I don't care what the subject is, name calling and belittling of others should not be tolerated.

and cowardly besides

Uhmm, ok... so where is the line drawn?

Did you not just belittle, then a few words later say it shouldnt be done?

I'm not seeing anyone with clean hands here, give your energy where ever you will, I suppose.

TargeT

26th October 2018, 16:18

onawah

26th October 2018, 16:28

This is the post you are referring to as follows, Target:
I disagree. Why would such a remark go in a post on Avalon if it wasn't meant for Avalon members? Your remark, Target, implies that DNA is using Avalon as his platform to berate anyone who might be reading Avalon. If that is the case, I think it's a misuse of the space here, and cowardly besides, since only members could reply to such posts.

So Target, your objection implies that you think that DNA is using Avalon as his platform to berate anyone who might be reading Avalon, anyone who is Left leaning. I did not state that that is what DNA is doing, but I suggested that if so, that it is a cowardly tactic, since that is a misuse of Avalon, and in any case, only members of Avalon have the recourse of answering such berating here. Do you really disagree with that?

ThePythonicCow

26th October 2018, 18:05

Did you not just belittle, then a few words later say it shouldnt be done?
The distinction, as I see it, which apparently 2nd amendment (right to "bear arms") supporters more frequently explicitly recognize than 1st amendment (right to free speech) supporters, is that one should not initiate violence, but may be called on to use it to stop further violence.

Still, one should exercise as much restraint as practical, even when properly defending.

I will tactfully avoid endeavoring to apply these general principles to the current situation :).

Hervé

26th October 2018, 18:25

After due consultation with the mods team, it's been decided to provide DNA with a ticket for a 3-day vacation in the hope this will help him rein in or discharge emotional residues due to sticking to only one side of some coin :)

Jayke

26th October 2018, 21:24

You could start here: http://stopthecrime.net/primewater.html and here: http://www.stopthecrime.net/2014%20water%20cylces.pdf
Deborah Tavares of StoptheCrime.net explains the difference between recycled sewer water and primary water, and why we are being denied the latter. Recycled water is not clean--it contains lots of chemicals including chlorine, fluoride and pharmaceutical drugs which treatment plants do not eliminate.

Similar to the strategy of riddling states with huge fault lines with hundreds of thousands of drilling and fracking and thermal tapping sites, polluting the water and increasing the dangers of catastrophic earthquakes and volcanic eruptions instead of investing in renewable energy and free energy technologies. Keeping the elite's depopulation agenda diverse and difficult to halt because it's being implemented on so many fronts.

Your typical environmentalist is not likely to be aware of this, but anyone who is a conspiracy theorist certainly should be, and puts conspiracy theorists into a much different, and much more knowledgeable category than standard Liberals. Just as being aware of agendas that originate from off-world and are directed at the entire population of planet Earth puts conspiracy theorists into a very different category than a typical Left or Right leaning person in any political discussion. There is a whole other dimension there that cannot be ignored without being very suspicious. It may be that some members of Avalon are not really conspiracy theorists and know nothing about such agendas, but if there are, at least there is hope that they will explore further, because a lot of evidence to that effect has been recorded here. Something the controllers and their shills would no doubt like to distract from.

To the environmentalists, what are the implications of ‘The Water Infrastructure Act 2018’ Trump has recently signed?

On the surface level, this looks like it’s going to be great for American infrastructure and agricultural development, which could bring a huge amount of greenery back to California, for instance. Has anyone had the time to read through this Act to discover if there’s any hidden or duplicitous content? What am I not seeing about this Water Infrastructure deal, because at the moment, it certainly appears to be MAGA by Trump, a man following through on his campaign promises.

I’m well aware of the environmentalist scam, Onawah. LaRouchePac did an excellent presentation on the ways the biosphere has been sabotaged by the oligarchs, with their global warming agenda, which is really just a de-population tool that enables slow genocide. LaRouche has been advocating, for decades, the release of fusion reactors, to end all energy shortages (the technology is there, it’s just been held back by the usual suspects).

zJ9bYClCzLU
You’ve helped diagnose the problem, Onawah i.e. the faux-water shortage and engineered drought conditions brought about by certain factions of the deep state. You didn’t address how any of that relates to ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ though.

By Trumps own declaration, ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ is billed as the exact solution required to StopTheCrime.

Apparantly, there’s an abundance of water that rolls down from the Californian mountains, but since 1979, all the water has been wasted by channeling it straight out into the ocean to create the illusion of a water shortage. Trump declared that ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ is going to take that water and allow it to flow where it really belongs, on the land and with the people, supporting agriculture and development.

Whether Trump can bloom the deserts will be a good indicator for discerning if Trump is telling ‘bold lies’ or being genuine. If the Californian sands begin to spring to life with lush greenery, then we know Trump is legit. If it continues to deteriorate, then we’ll know he’s just another deep state, genocidal, puppet. I’m comfortable letting time be the judge of Trumps character. I don’t need anyone’s self-righteousness or anti-Trump indignation telling me what I must or mustn’t believe about a person. (general statement, not directed at you in particular, Onawah)

Have any of the environmentalists read the ‘Save our Seas Act 2018’ Trump signed last week?

7IYru-hA3mM
For a president who’s following the deep states genocidal agenda of environmental destruction, he’s certainly signing a lot of environmentally friendly Acts lately. Cleaning up the ocean and bringing greenery back to the land. It could easily be interpreted that he genuinely is trying to Make America Great Again.

===========

On a different note, when it comes to personality types, the main conflict which I’ve noticed on this forum, is between those who FEAR versus those who HOPE. Those who FEAR are constantly telling us that we’re being conned or fooled, and that war and death is imminently around the corner.

Whereas those who HOPE, we still see the dangers, but we just don’t fear them anywhere near as much as the fearful group incessantly insist we should. There’s just too many awe-inspiring potentials emerging over the horizon, too many greater possibilities for us to forge and shape into existence, to get sucked into a fearful mindset.

The scaredy cats can keep sounding the alarm as much as they want, but, for me—HOPE is the fuel of heroes—it’s what lights the fire necassary to forge a better future. Only a fool would try and wrestle a persons hope away and replace it with fear, the end result would be hopeless.

We each have far too many resources at our disposal to ever be truly dragged down the hopeless route, imo.

onawah

26th October 2018, 23:23

That's good news Jayke, and I was not aware of it, so thanks for sharing.
I hope that the ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ IS the exact solution required, and that you will keep us updated. It would certainly be a great step forward, and we are going to be needing a lot of those with all the pollutants that are currently fouling our water.
I have hope too, and contrary to the way that attempts have been made to paint me and other members here who are, I think, just trying to be realistic, practical and unemotional, I am not a Leftist, and I am very much in favor of some of the things that Trump is doing (for example, I agree with his immigration policy wholeheartedly).
I just try not to place my hope in doubtful outcomes.
As the old definition of insanity tells us, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
There are lots of reasons to hope and lots of great things being done on the planet by lots of people, though such things don't attract nearly enough attention.
What bothers me is that I see what looks to me like too much investment in things that don't look likely to pan out, and not enough attention to things that are truly inspiring, that are solving problems NOW, and not making compromises because there is always some reason that has been deliberately created to delay real solutions.
The trick is always to get creative enough to get beyond those roadblocks.
There is a certain mentality in mainstream consciousness that sidelines such creative solutions as being too good to be true, and politics usually seems to reflect that same defeatist attitude.
If that changes, the sky is the limit.

You’ve helped diagnose the problem, Onawah i.e. the faux-water shortage and engineered drought conditions brought about by certain factions of the deep state. You didn’t address how any of that relates to ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ though.

By Trumps own declaration, ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ is billed as the exact solution required to StopTheCrime.

Apparantly, there’s an abundance of water that rolls down from the Californian mountains, but since 1979, all the water has been wasted by channeling it straight out into the ocean to create the illusion of a water shortage. Trump declared that ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ is going to take that water and allow it to flow where it really belongs, on the land and with the people, supporting agriculture and development.

Whether Trump can bloom the deserts will be a good indicator for discerning if Trump is telling ‘bold lies’ or being genuine. If the Californian sands begin to spring to life with lush greenery, then we know Trump is legit. If it continues to deteriorate, then we’ll know he’s just another deep state, genocidal, puppet. I’m comfortable letting time be the judge of Trumps character. I don’t need anyone’s self-righteousness or anti-Trump indignation telling me what I must or mustn’t believe about a person. (general statement, not directed at you in particular, Onawah)

Have any of the environmentalists read the ‘Save our Seas Act 2018’ Trump signed last week?

7IYru-hA3mM
For a president who’s following the deep states genocidal agenda of environmental destruction, he’s certainly signing a lot of environmentally friendly Acts lately. Cleaning up the ocean and bringing greenery back to the land. It could easily be interpreted that he genuinely is trying to Make America Great Again.

===========

On a different note, when it comes to personality types, the main conflict which I’ve noticed on this forum, is between those who FEAR versus those who HOPE. Those who FEAR are constantly telling us that we’re being conned or fooled, and that war and death is imminently around the corner.

Whereas those who HOPE, we still see the dangers, but we just don’t fear them anywhere near as much as the fearful group incessantly insist we should. There’s just too many awe-inspiring potentials emerging over the horizon, too many greater possibilities for us to forge and shape into existence, to get sucked into a fearful mindset.

The scaredy cats can keep sounding the alarm as much as they want, but, for me—HOPE is the fuel of heroes—it’s what lights the fire necassary to forge a better future. Only a fool would try and wrestle a persons hope away and replace it with fear, the end result would be hopeless.

We each have far too many resources at our disposal to ever be truly dragged down the hopeless route, imo.

Jayke

27th October 2018, 10:54

I have hope too, and contrary to the way that attempts have been made to paint me and other members here who are, I think, just trying to be realistic, practical and unemotional, I am not a Leftist, and I am very much in favor of some of the things that Trump is doing (for example, I agree with his immigration policy wholeheartedly).
I just try not to place my hope in doubtful outcomes.

Hope is a fire that’s kindled within, if you try and take hope outside yourself and place it in external situations and people, that’s not hope, that’s faith. Faith is a form of blind hope that leads to hopelessness. They might seem like subtle semantics but they actually have a big impact on a persons health and psyche.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e0/77/c3/e077c38a56d0e894dc408570e15a4235--mans-search-for-meaning-elie-wiesel.jpg

As the old definition of insanity tells us, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
There are lots of reasons to hope and lots of great things being done on the planet by lots of people, though such things don't attract nearly enough attention.

I genuinely look forward to the day those mired with their anti-Trump viewpoints begin to lift their gaze over the horizon, and apply their creative energy to building a better future, rather than wasting time trying to tear down people who have already taken steps to materialise that brighter future into fruition.

On that day, maybe the left and right can be united in making not just a greater nation together, but a greater world as well. After another 6 years in office, I trust Trump might even be the president who’s able to achieve that impossible dream, or at least get the ball rolling in the right direction.

onawah

27th October 2018, 17:58

I hope you are right, Jayke, but it really sounds like you are placing your hope in "external situations and people", contrary to your own precautionary warnings.
In answer to your quotation about hope, I will add that my mentor, the late Dr. Christopher Hills (a great visionary akin to Leonardo daVinci, the artist who created the image you posted) once said that spiritual naivety is the greatest danger facing humankind.
And contrary to your apparent impressions, my intention, and I think that of Dennis, Daozen and others, is much more about awakening people to the things that are still going very wrong, that no one POTUS is likely to be able to change very much, such as Big Pharma's nefarious doings, the dangers of fracking and drilling for oil and gas, the pollution in our air, water and food,the dangers that the solar minimum is already creating in the form of increasing earthquake and volcanic activity, the very nature of the power structure that has been controlling this planet for so long, which has led us to the brink of destruction.
Those things are not just going to go away because of one person's intervention, even a POTUS.
I too hope for the end of the terrible division the world is presently in, and I think it will come, but only if people are aware of the dangers and begin doing something about them.
I think there are cosmic cycles and energies that have much to do with how humanity is faring at any given time, and it may well be that we are heading into a favorable cycle now, which will help to counterbalance all the unfortunate trends.
But the human race has powerful enemies, predators from other dimensions and other planets, and we cannot be naive if we are going to survive all these challenges, and it's already very clear that many will not, and the already existing damage is going to take some time to heal.
I wonder if most Trump fans have really made the time to look at all the dangers we are facing.
But I can't really imagine that anyone is finding this kind of word wrangling to be beneficial.
I hope the forum can find better, more productive ways of spending our time. We've been over and over this.
Someone like Joe or Dennis may have more to add, as they have apparently done the kind of research that I don't have time to do into Trump's policies and how they are working, etc., so I hope that ardent Trump fans will direct their arguments and objections their way now, as I am really quite done with this topic.

waves

27th October 2018, 18:23

This might be the most petty Trump hate thread yet.

Jayke

27th October 2018, 18:57

I hope you are right, Jayke, but it really sounds like you are placing your hope in "external situations and people", contrary to your own precautionary warnings.
In answer to your quotation about hope, I will add that my mentor, the late Dr. Christopher Hills (a great visionary akin to Leonardo daVinci, the artist who created the image you posted) once said that spiritual naivety is the greatest danger facing humankind.
And contrary to your apparent impressions, my intention, and I think that of Dennis, Daozen and others, is much more about awakening people to the things that are still going very wrong, that no one POTUS is likely to be able to change very much, such as Big Pharma's nefarious doings, the dangers of fracking and drilling for oil and gas, the pollution in our air, water and food,the dangers that the solar minimum is already creating in the form of increasing earthquake and volcanic activity, the very nature of the power structure that has been controlling this planet for so long, which has led us to the brink of destruction.
Those things are not just going to go away because of one person's intervention, even a POTUS.
I too hope for the end of the terrible division the world is presently in, and I think it will come, but only if people are aware of the dangers and begin doing something about them.
I think there are cosmic cycles and energies that have much to do with how humanity is faring at any given time, and it may well be that we are heading into a favorable cycle now, which will help to counterbalance all the unfortunate trends.
But the human race has powerful enemies, predators from other dimensions and other planets, and we cannot be naive if we are going to survive all these challenges, and it's already very clear that many will not, and the already existing damage is going to take some time to heal.
I wonder if most Trump fans have really made the time to look at all the dangers we are facing.
But I can't really imagine that anyone is finding these kinds of word wrangling to be productive.
I hope the forum can find better, more productive ways of spending our time. We've been over and over this.
Someone like Joe or Dennis may have more to add, as they have apparently done the kind of research that I don't have time to do into Trump's policies and how they are working, etc., so I hope that ardent Trump fans will direct their arguments and objections their way now, as I am really quite done with this topic.

I quite specifically said I place TRUST in external things and people. Hope is something that’s kindled within. Hope, Trust, Faith—It’s difficult to understand the subtle distinctions between those values, I suppose—when one is afraid of all the threats they perceive about them. But your response does highlight my earlier statements about the conflicts arising on this forum between those who fear versus those who hope.

I followed up some research on ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’ and found one of the guys who had a hand in writing certain aspects of it. Did you know they plan on using waterflow for purposes of hydropower? I.e. clean, renewable energy.

GU6YfTVkA4Y
https://mobile.twitter.com/replarrybucshon?lang=en

There is space for people to highlight what is very wrong with society, which is why I invited people to comb through the Water Infrastructure Act and find out where the hidden dangers might be written into it. The question remains open to those with the time to investigate...

onawah

27th October 2018, 19:35

Different people assign different meanings to different words.
I apologize if I offended with what you consider to be incorrect word usage.

I just wanted to add some thoughts on fear versus hope.
In my younger days, I was so full of hope I didn't bother to examine a lot of things closely enough.
Consequently, Life dealt me a lot of rude awakenings, some via a Vietnam War veteran, a decorated Marine who I lived with for a few years, one a disabling near death experience when I was 25 that changed the course of my whole life.
But I also had a lot of wonderful, enlightening awakenings, some at a Zen Center in the mountains of Virginia where I lived for over a year.
Some awakenings that I am still working on integrating, for there is less information to go on with this type, such as encounters with ETs, UFOs, interdimensional beings, etc.
I've recorded a lot of those different experiences here on the forum over the years.
One of my great awakenings was on and after 911, which really pulled the rug out under my beliefs about what the future would hold.
I was very disillusioned, but not so much fearful as very angry, and determined to uncover the truth about what really happened.
That was when I became a conspiracy theorist, though for many years I had had a profound distrust in our so-called "leadership", and knew enough not to believe what the MSM was feeding us.
What I found as I jumped down all those rabbit holes that led to even more rabbit holes, was that I gained much more trust in my own discernment, and that the more I understood, the more any unconscious fears I had about things I had not previously known but suspected, were dissolved.
With knowledge comes power, though power itself can be an illusion.
Like Carlos Castaneda's mentor, Don Juan, who described himself as a "Man of Knowledge", I think that the more we know, the less we fear.
Fear is one of the formidable obstacles that a person on a road to awakening must face, and by grappling with it, we become stronger.
Knowledge is one of the great tools that we must cultivate to deal with fear.
My Zen master once gave me the name "Great Zen Practitioner".
I was very humbled and embarrassed by that, and wondered how I would ever live up to such a name.
I asked what it meant to be a great Zen Practitioner, and the answer was that, on the path of Zen, once must have great faith, great doubt and great perseverance.
Now, we could quibble over the meaning of "faith" in that adage, but "trust" could be substituted if you like--the point being that one believes and trusts in the path and the maps of those who have gone before.
It's the importance of the word "doubt" that I am speaking to here.
If we give ourselves permission to doubt, we are facing our Shadow side and dealing with it.
If we instead repress that side of ourselves in favor of "positive thinking", we devalue a very important part of our very being, and it is very difficult to truly evolve in a grounded, balanced way from there.
We have to deal with the dark side of ourselves and our world, not deny them or try to bury them.
Otherwise fear truly will defeat us.

Jayke

27th October 2018, 21:33

I’m not offended, Onawah. I have however been reading Marcus Aurelius ‘Meditations’ recently. It’s a great reminder to contemplate our values and really temper the meanings we assign to various labels, to get precise on what it is we truly stand for. Without precision, we argue over semantics, which isn’t productive.

The distinction between Faith and Trust, that I personally go by, is that, Faith is ‘belief without evidence’. Whereas, Trust is offered after a risk assessment of the evidence has been concluded. Banks would go bankrupt if they operated on faith alone. Banks go through rigorous background checks to ensure a person is trustworthy before offering the best loans.

I appreciate your personal story, Onawah, it’s interesting to hear the spiritual path others have followed.

I’d agree on the importance of shadow work. The reason politics can get so heated in debates is because—for me at least—politics is a combination of organisational psychology, systems theory, mass psychology and archetypal psychology. It represents an aspect of the dynamic ground of the deep psyche (which means politics even has a spiritual dimension).

If people don’t do the shadow work before assessing the outer world of politics, it often brings up people’s deepest fears, that then get projected onto the actors of the world stage. It can also stir up people’s greatest hopes as well, which are also projected out and can lead to disillusionment when the actors fail to live up to our inner ideals. I’m very much aware of those dynamics, which is why I always encourage people to operate from a position of healthy skepticism i.e. find evidence and proof for everything, before giving it your trust or getting hopeful over outcomes. My risk assessment says Trump is doing just fine, and the world is not going to implode or be taken over by aliens. You might consider my assessment to be naïve. I personally consider it to be grounded in reason and pragmatic logic.

On the same note though, I do see that Trump isn’t perfect. I have a realistic assessment of Trumps character, and the character of those that surround him. There’s definitely red flags and warning signs to pay attention to. I’m not denying they don’t exist. The overall trends do suggest there’s plenty to be thrilled about though. Whether people move towards Hope or Fear is just a factor of the data-sets they choose to pay attention to.

Finding the right balance between hope and doubt is definitely a good place for resolving conflict, which, is why I invited the environmentalists to read through ‘The Water Infrastructure Act’. I’ve not read through it. I don’t live in America, so, it doesn’t apply to me. From what I’ve heard about it however, there’s much to be hopeful over. Yet we do need people like Dennis who can comb through the linguistics of it and quote us the red flags that might be written within. Allow the good to be analysed along with the bad—in equal measure—without tilting the scales out of alignment with the reality of the situation presented to us, while simultaneously holding our politicans feet to the fire so they follow through on their promises.

That’s how the left and right can work together, if we really wish to, without getting into the food fights that become so prevalent on these forums.

onawah

28th October 2018, 00:16

Jayke

28th October 2018, 07:51

My assessment is that Trump is doing better than I expected, and surely is a heck of a lot better choice than Clinton would have been, so no argument there, and I agree the world is not going to implode or be taken over by aliens, though I don't doubt that they are trying. Bill Ryan has been privy to lots of info from genuine whistleblowers on such subjects, and some of the posts in his new thread apply such as: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104824-Bill-Ryan-s-personal-Question-and-Answer-thread.-Pile-it-on.--&p=1256336&viewfull=1#post1256336 and
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104824-Bill-Ryan-s-personal-Question-and-Answer-thread.-Pile-it-on.--&p=1256324&viewfull=1#post1256324
...which contain nothing I would disagree with; he doesn't turn a blind eye to the dangers, either.
I was not referring to you personally regarding spiritual naivety, but it is something that I see a lot of in the world at large, and unfortunately, sometimes here on the forum as well, particularly when Trump fans here paint anyone who is thinking critically and looking for real evidence regarding Trump with such a broad brush, as being a "libtard", which is not only naive, but patently absurd, and makes it very difficult to have a real discussion here, like this one.
update: I am listening to Dark Journalist here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxgNUde58zw and he says something important about John Bolton starting around 6 minutes in. It would certainly be a step in the right direction if Trump would disempower Bolton in whatever way he can.
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My risk assessment says Trump is doing just fine, and the world is not going to implode or be taken over by aliens. You might consider my assessment to be naïve. I personally consider it to be grounded in reason and pragmatic logic.

The libtards (or shills) do tend to paint Donald Trump with broad brush strokes when they take aim with their juvenile character assassinations. (Not that I believe we have any genuine shills on this forum), I do find it disheartening when supposedly aware and spiritually developed people accuse other forum members of being shills for supporting Trump however, which is patently absurd, like you say, since Trump is actually doing better than most people expected. It makes it difficult for pro-Trump supporters to engage in a real discussion when the anti-Trump people focus too heavily on what’s going wrong as oppose to what’s going right, especially when the criticisms levelled at Trump are generally things that are beyond Trumps control. Does anyone really think he has omnipotent control over the military-industrial-complex, for example? No way! Then why does he continuously get blamed for every nefarious move the pentagon perpetuates?

I’ve tried following along on your thread, Trump is not the Answer, and you do tend to do likewise, I do appreciate some of the posts on that thread, but some of the stories you share are blatantly beyond Trumps control, yet rather than point your ire at the real culprits, it’s Trump that gets tainted with the broad whipping brush. Greater discernment and greater distinction, when assessing what Trump genuinely has control over, versus what he hasn’t had chance to tackle in his 2 years of office, would go a long way in preventing people from calling you a libtard. Not that I believe I’ve ever levelled that accusation against you personally. But you certainly won’t earn pro-Trump supporters respect by hurling ad-hominins our way, then taking offence when ad-hominins are thrown back. Respect is a two-way street, as well we all know.

I do like Dark Journalists shows—when I get chance to watch them—Trump could be the next Kennedy by reigniting new space programs, so it’ll be interesting to see if DJ and Bosley bring any of that into their discussion. I’m not a fan of Pence either, but it’ll be interesting to see how well Trump can bring the Neocons to heel over the coming years.

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onawah

28th October 2018, 15:31

ramus

28th October 2018, 15:35

I think I'm going to stay away from the political front for awhile. When killing, bombing, and the hatred (even here on this forum) are the means we use to be heard, and I know it's a very small faction, I say that cost is too large ..... If we are the sum total of what we hate, what are we ?

... 3 things I've learned:... let your HEART rule your head.... your CONSCIENCE is your friend ....and all the material things we seek, there is a great word for TRAPPINGS.

onawah

28th October 2018, 15:44

Correction: I was thinking I was on Autumn's thread Trump is not the Answer when I wrote the post above, #87. Hard to believe this thread already has nearly 100 posts and 5 pages.

Jayke

28th October 2018, 16:02

For the most part what I share here is quoted information from other sources, which may blame Trump for things which are beyond his control. Their views are not necessarily my views, but as they are reporting about problems which people in the Trump Admin may be causing or not doing anything to alleviate, I think the information needs to be shared. I do not take responsibility for others' opinions of Trump, and this is not MY thread. Autumn started it and entitled it. I have no ire against Trump.
I am quite aware of your familiar complaints, Jayke. It's not like they haven't been voiced over and over and over again! I have no solution for you. There certainly are lots and lots of problems that Trump cannot address, also problems which he most likely will not address, and there are some very bad people in his Admin who do him no credit at all. I can't fix that, but I can and will continue to pay attention to that, and will continue to post information about that on this forum if I choose to. You always have the option of ignoring my posts if you choose to.

I actually agree with your sentiments, and I do respect your postings, even if I disagree with the information shared occasionally. I think our underlying goals are the same, which are to make the world a more spiritually aligned and wholesome place. Counterbalancing opinions are fine by me, it’s all part of the dialectical process.

I’ve still not had anyone get back to me on any hidden dangers in ‘The Water Infrastructure Act 2018’ yet.

The Irrigation Association (https://www.irrigation.org) seem to be the group who will benefit most from it...

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Might be worth following their social media channels if anyone’s interested in the progress of how this policy is benefiting America.