19 November is International Men's Day. But what does it mean to be a man?

[Bill Ryan]

From http://internationalmensday.com:

On November 19, International Men’s Day celebrates worldwide the positive value men bring to the world, their families and communities. We highlight positive role models and raise awareness of men’s well-being.

~~~

So, my question: in 2019 and beyond, what does it mean to be a man?

[Bill Ryan]

I'll kick off the thread here with some fairly firm views of my own. I'm not expecting everyone to agree! But this really is what I think and feel.


Men are physiologically and emotionally different from women, and always have been.



But many men are confused these days about their role. They sometimes feel cowed by strong feminists (and by a global agenda to promote feminism).



Many can even feel guilty for their feelings of strong male identity and sexuality, which they may be conflicted about and sometimes self-inhibit.



That doesn't mean they have to be cigar-chewing, gun-toting Neanderthals. :) But they can (and should!) still display courage, fight for what's right, defend and protect their families, and be proactive initiators of beneficial change.



Women can do all that, too, of course. And men can be sensitive, caring, nurturing, and supportive. There's significant overlap. But the primary roles are still distinct.

Discuss. :)

[DNA]

I think often times this question is asked with too broad of a stroke. Folks start looking at what the world wide implications of men and politics are.

I'm of the opinion the answer to this question is the answer to the question "what does it mean to be human?".
Folks need to care for those in their immediate sphere of influence.

Care for your family and if you are capable of extending that to friends then do so.

If you can do well to care for your family and friends then extend this to those of acquaintance.

The first and most important thing you can do though is to take care of your family.


EDIT-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Yesterday a friend of mine at work told me a story about her father while she was growing up. When she was fifteen her father began an affair with her neighbor who was a woman with children and a husband.

This affair went unnoticed until the two decided to run off together without telling anyone. They literally disappeared without sending word of their where about, a week goes by and the husband finally calls my work friend's mom and explains the situation.

The resulting fall out for the families who were left was catastrophic emotionally and financially. One family was left without a husband and father and the other family was left without a mother and wife. These tales are all too often and common in the USA and the West in general.

Movies and media constantly try to enable and validate the need to gratify one's own sexual and emotional needs over those of one's family and their needs.

When folks have taken on the role of father and mother they need to realize that this role should be upheld and maintained.

This new idea that the role of parent is interchangeable and only based on who the new sex partner is of the parent who has guardianship is utter nonsense.

[Did You See Them]

Not a lot - we just get on with it !
Ask anyone when "International Men's Day" is and they wont know ! - and likely not give a f*** !
Being a man and having to work means I haven't got to time to "Celebrate" and sing my own praises !
Bet there's a Hallmark card coming soon for it though !

[petra]

What a fantastic opportunity to give gifts to my favorite men! Thanks for the heads up :)

I don't have a lot to contribute at this time except that I feel men and women think differently, generally speaking.

The tech world (where I live) has much more men than women in it, and it's always been a bit skewed when it comes to stereotyping. I'm guilty of stereotyping as well, because I strongly feel that men are more "apt" to have computer programming skills and/or problem solving skills which are much better than women. That's not to say women can't be good at programming and problem solving, it's just not the norm. The sad thing is, if I had to hire an Admin right now - I'd prefer a male one.

I first noticed this when I was in school and I tried to teach people basic programming skills - all the ladies I tried to teach could not catch onto the simplest concepts.

[avid]

Depends from which culture one originates. The ‘West’ seems now to be compromising gender deliberately, even in education. Why?

Logically, and historically, situations ensured that men provided sustenance and safety, and women procreated and maintained, but this really depends on one’s geographical location.

As for ‘international men’s day’ - I bet the voraciously ‘PC’ gender-neutral community will be out in force decrying anything and everything which diverts from their social programming. End of.

[AriG]

Its a little disingenuous for me to make any presumption about masculinity (as a woman). I am very glad to be female. I would not want to be a man in today’s society. Men appear to be under so much pressure and are rightfully confused about their roles. Society is vilifying naturally male characteristics (or being brainwashed to) and glorifying transgenderism and homosexuality. This is probably a result of in vitro exposure to hormone and endocrine disrupters- or at least the rapid uptick in prevalence. A warning to the controllers creating this Brave New Nightmare and the # nuts promoting this - be very careful. What is this world going to look like in 50 years when real men have been marginalized into oblivion? Who will build your homes and protect you? AI? Not likely.

[Bill Ryan]

It’s a little disingenuous for me to make any presumption about masculinity (as a woman). I am very glad to be female.

But then, Ari, you're in a perfect position to have a view: what do women want (of a man)?

[AriG]

It’s a little disingenuous for me to make any presumption about masculinity (as a woman). I am very glad to be female.

But then, Ari, you're in a perfect position to have a view: what do women want (of a man)?

like men, we’re all individuals but I can tell you what I want and generally receive:

Kindness, Intelligence, sense of humor, possibility thinker, open mind, friend and partner.

I’m ok with household traditional gender roles because I think it works. I’m not ok with inequality in other venues such as a workplace.

The one thing that gets my husband and I into debate is that although he’s a good listener- when I tell him about a problem I am having. He always wants to fix it. That’s not what I want. I just want his ear. And that is traditionally a male response- the white horse syndrome. So I try to accept it because as I always expect him to read my mind and know what I want, lol,there may be a day when I need him to ride that horse.

[ramus]

What it means to be a man;
self reliant
self sufficient
individual responsibility (own it )

When you decide to bring another into this world, it is no longer about you it's about them. That means you endure what ever is dished out to see them thru.

I worked a large auto manufacturing plant (Toyota ) 7,000 people, being taken for granted was the norm,let alone the billies in control. Some around me would complain and hate their treatment by the company, they had families and would put themselves jeopardy of losing their jobs because could not get pass themselves, forgetting their families relied on them, for medical, food, and shelter.

I had a young person ask me right before I retired,(30 yrs) how did you make it thru all this, I said that i learned to endure and always keep my goal (duty ) in mind, and I didn't let it penetrate me .

Me not being a bible scholar he quoted me the following: From Romans 5:

Know that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, brings about character; and character brings about hope . I've never forgot that quote.

I think that's what it is to be a man .. others come first ...

[Valerie Villars]

AriG, you hit the nail on the head with the above post. My boyfriend/fiance/partner has a hard time when I begin to voice frustrations or explain how I feel about certain things. He hears me "complaining" when nothing could be further from the truth. I simply need to express what's going on so I can sort through it. He hears me demanding a solution when all I want is an ear, just as you said.

He is very masculine. Thank God. Why would I want to be with someone like me; feminine?

What does it mean to be a man? It means to love women because they are different, to be kind, generous, strong, caring, a good provider, steady, intelligent, have a sense of humor and above all to lay on the couch and watch football while dropping assorted snack foods all over himself, the couch and the floor.

[TargeT]

Competency
Responsibility
Confidence
Courageousness

NX2ep5fCJZ8

Pick up a load!


Movies and media constantly try to enable and validate the need to gratify one's own sexual and emotional needs over those of one's family and their needs.

There is a cultural undermining of Men and Women, aimed at destroying the family structure... Divide and conquer at all levels it seems.



The one thing that gets my husband and I into debate is that although he’s a good listener- when I tell him about a problem I am having. He always wants to fix it. That’s not what I want. I just want his ear. And that is traditionally a male response- the white horse syndrome. So I try to accept it because as I always expect him to read my mind and know what I want, lol,there may be a day when I need him to ride that horse.

I think you meant white knight?

I disagree, it's how our brains are wired... problems need solving, not necessarily due to some drive to be a savior.

[AriG]

and above all to lay on the couch and watch football while dropping assorted snack foods all over himself, the couch and the floor.

Absolutely hilarious!!! Luckily I don’t have that particular problem-more like runs the table saw and leaves piles of sawdust all over the barn!

[Strat]

What does it mean to be a man? This is open to interpretation.

In my experience being a man comes naturally. It's not something that has to be thought about or examined. A bird doesn't think about flying it just spreads its wings and flies. If someone has to think about their masculinity then I'd imagine they are a young teen or maybe they have sexuality issues (not saying that's a bad thing, is what it is and I respect you as long as you respect me).

My answer is standard in some ways: I can be an alpha, there are no such things as 'problems,' just an itemized list of goals to accomplish. Boarding up windows and evacuating for a hurricane isn't stressful, it weighs on my mind about as much as what I'm gonna cook for the Jags game (when they ultimately lose on Sunday grrrr). I am a leader and I shine when **** hits the fan. I wanna say I was raised old school, but I'm 33. I say this though because I was brought up in the days of 'sticks and stones,' 'walk it off,' 'you only got your bell rang,' etc. I was raised with grit. When life knocks you down, grit gets you back up and faith keeps you going.

My non typical answer is I also know my role, and I try to learn from other folks (males and females) who I consider are superior to me in something I show interest in. If you have knowledge I just listen, if I open my mouth it's to ask questions. I'm very much a renaissance man so I'm more often than not on the quiet side. It's cause I'm listening. I try to surround myself with smart people that bring something to the table.

I'm also into things that aren't 'billy badass' alpha male stuff. I do a bit of gardening, I think meditation is the answer to all of lifes problems, I like to read, I'm an animal lover to the nth degree and I give to charity.

Some of these things (as mentioned in another post) just come down to being a powerful human. However I do believe in the standard separation of men from women when it comes to physicality, aggression and (sometimes) drive. I think this is natural, healthy, and is expressed in 95% of other mammals as well. It's not to say men are superior, we're just different and have different traits.

[Satori]

Haven't you heard? There are no differences between men and women. We are all equal, not just in the eyes of the law but in every sense. To be a man means the same thing as to be a woman. A women wants to be a combat soldier. Sure thing, no worries. A man wants to stay home and raise the kids while the woman wants to go to work and bring home the bacon. Ok. Go for it. A girl wants to be a Boy Scout and a boy a Girl Scout. Have at it.

If a man wants to use the women's room or a woman the men's room, who is to say "no?" Thanks to modern science and medical procedures, a man can physically become a woman and vice versa. Heck, just identify as the other sex-- no problem.

To be a woman today means to keep your mouth shut, borrow money, pay usury and your taxes and don't make any waves. Same for a man.

Hell there are often times anymore when it's hard to tell if a person is a man or a woman. A boy or a girl. That was not an issue when I was growing up, unless it was a baby. That's where blue and pink came in. Not anymore.

A man (and a woman) should:

Bend, but not break.
Be understanding and tolerant, but not be easily trifled or messed with.
Abhor violence, but defend himself and his loved ones to the death.
Have an abundance mentality and share, not a scarcity mentality and horde.
Love not hate.
Respect all things, people and places.
Be peaceful and at peace as much as possible under all circumstances.
Think and learn.
Speak less and listen more.
Read and write.
Walk your talk and exercise integrity at all times in all things.
And so on.

I know what I am. What are you?

[Flash]

What a fantastic opportunity to give gifts to my favorite men! Thanks for the heads up :)

I don't have a lot to contribute at this time except that I feel men and women think differently, generally speaking.

The tech world (where I live) has much more men than women in it, and it's always been a bit skewed when it comes to stereotyping. I'm guilty of stereotyping as well, because I strongly feel that men are more "apt" to have computer programming skills and/or problem solving skills which are much better than women. That's not to say women can't be good at programming and problem solving, it's just not the norm. The sad thing is, if I had to hire an Admin right now - I'd prefer a male one.

I first noticed this when I was in school and I tried to teach people basic programming skills - all the ladies I tried to teach could not catch onto the simplest concepts.

This is not my experience at all, but hey, I respect yours. The women I have seen do get basic concepts, and they are as savvy about computer than their male counterpart, at least the young ones, and you are young Petra, how come you noticed what you did?

I have the taste to tease you - oh! Newfoundland!! just kidding,

with love

Flash - like all Montrealers, men and women, I cannot drive properly anyhow (our reputation, deserved I must say). And yes, we eat frog legs and escargots (snails).

[Flash]

Happy nice men day to all avalon male members. I love to have men around who can stand up to whom they are, like most of you here.

[Caliban]

Off the cuff --

Being a man means being whatever I am - you are -- as a man. Period.

There are no hard and fast rules. But being a man is not the same as being a woman. Things overlap of course, but we're not the same biologically and that should be honored.

Speaking of honoring -- I honor my father, who often struggled to support his family in the way he sought for them, with the opportunities he didn't experience. It wasn't easy for him, and I'm sure many, many men have felt similarly. As an adult, I wrote him a letter, telling him I finally understood, a little, of what he went through.

As women approach earning equality with men -- in some areas they're earning (and being hired) more than men -- let's not forget the strength of the male. It's not just about earning power or "providing." What a man provides is not and shouldn't be just money. The male energy might not be in favor lately but that's the energy that opened up mountains so the trains could pass through. And that's the energy that held you when you were frightened, also.

[lunaflare]

I didn't know this was a "day"!

These types of questions are important as they inspire thought and deeper inquiry. They are also rhetorical in that there is no fixed answer.
Compared to the last century, public, personal, work and home roles for men and women have changed. Due to the rise of major social movements like Feminism, Civil Rights, Gay Rights, Disability, there are more choices available for both sexes and thus more fluidity in terms of what it means to be a man.
The same question can be applied to women, of course.
"What does it mean to be a woman?"

I don't think there is a clear answer nor do I think there is a clear definition of feminism either--there are many varying ideologies within this movement also.
I subscribe to Germaine Greer's form of Feminism (liberation feminism not equality feminism). How can men and women be equal having physiological differences?
I wouldn't wish to take on the roles men play in the corporate sector nor the army, navy, airforce, financial institutions.

So, what does it mean to be a man?
I would say:
A ready willingness to love and respect yourself
A ready willingness to be strong, to be vulnerable, to be open to change
A ready willingness to respect those who are physiologically different to you

[meeradas]

I'll never find out.

[Richard S.]

But the primary roles are still distinct.


That is the most important part that is getting blurry these days...

[greybeard]

But the primary roles are still distinct.


That is the most important part that is getting blurry these days...

Which is why I started this thread

Chris
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?103734-When-men-were-men-women-were-feminine&p=1239437&viewfull=1#post1239437

[petra]

What a fantastic opportunity to give gifts to my favorite men! Thanks for the heads up :)

I don't have a lot to contribute at this time except that I feel men and women think differently, generally speaking.

The tech world (where I live) has much more men than women in it, and it's always been a bit skewed when it comes to stereotyping. I'm guilty of stereotyping as well, because I strongly feel that men are more "apt" to have computer programming skills and/or problem solving skills which are much better than women. That's not to say women can't be good at programming and problem solving, it's just not the norm. The sad thing is, if I had to hire an Admin right now - I'd prefer a male one.

I first noticed this when I was in school and I tried to teach people basic programming skills - all the ladies I tried to teach could not catch onto the simplest concepts.

This is not my experience at all, but hey, I respect yours. The women I have seen do get basic concepts, and they are as savvy about computer than their male counterpart, at least the young ones, and you are young Petra, how come you noticed what you did?

I have the taste to tease you - oh! Newfoundland!! just kidding,


We're an odd bunch alright!
I'm actually really sorry for explaining my views so offensively, it's really just my opinion and I'm just one person.
I thought about it later and what didn't seem offensive to me at the time, suddenly seemed a lot worse.
I did not mean to imply that ladies aren't capable! Sure they are. I just see some differences, and if I'm ever able to formulate my thoughts properly I'll make a separate posting about it.

[greybeard]

What a fantastic opportunity to give gifts to my favorite men! Thanks for the heads up :)

I don't have a lot to contribute at this time except that I feel men and women think differently, generally speaking.

The tech world (where I live) has much more men than women in it, and it's always been a bit skewed when it comes to stereotyping. I'm guilty of stereotyping as well, because I strongly feel that men are more "apt" to have computer programming skills and/or problem solving skills which are much better than women. That's not to say women can't be good at programming and problem solving, it's just not the norm. The sad thing is, if I had to hire an Admin right now - I'd prefer a male one.

I first noticed this when I was in school and I tried to teach people basic programming skills - all the ladies I tried to teach could not catch onto the simplest concepts.

I think your points are valid Petra.
What I have noticed is that people literally grow into what is expected of them--the new "norm" so to speak.
Body shape of both men and women seem to have changed over the years.
Abilities also have merged to a degree.
Women are much more computer savy and have enhanced ability to problem solve.
Men have perhaps become more nurturing, with better, more affectionate, relationships with their children.
It is as it is.
Im ok with me and that's being a Man.

Ch
Ps there is no need to "apologize" to strong women like Flash, whom I have the greatest regard and respect for.
There are not that many of her calibre yet but the numbers are growing rapidly.

Chris

[petra]

What a fantastic opportunity to give gifts to my favorite men! Thanks for the heads up :)

I don't have a lot to contribute at this time except that I feel men and women think differently, generally speaking.

The tech world (where I live) has much more men than women in it, and it's always been a bit skewed when it comes to stereotyping. I'm guilty of stereotyping as well, because I strongly feel that men are more "apt" to have computer programming skills and/or problem solving skills which are much better than women. That's not to say women can't be good at programming and problem solving, it's just not the norm. The sad thing is, if I had to hire an Admin right now - I'd prefer a male one.

I first noticed this when I was in school and I tried to teach people basic programming skills - all the ladies I tried to teach could not catch onto the simplest concepts.

I think your points are valid Petra.
What I have noticed is that people literally grow into what is expected of them--the new "norm" so to speak.
Body shape of both men and women seem to have changed over the years.
Abilities also have merged to a degree.
Women are much more computer savy and have enhanced ability to problem solve.
Men have perhaps become more nurturing, with better, more affectionate, relationships with their children.
It is as it is.
Im ok with me and that's being a Man.

Ch
Ps there is no need to "apologize" to strong women like Flash, whom I have the greatest regard and respect for.
There are not that many of her calibre yet but the numbers are growing rapidly.

Chris

Thanks for that Chris, I meant to write back yesterday, but got spooked and took off early. I legitimately am sorry for how I worded that!! And embarrassed too, which doesn't happen too often! I really do sound like an ass... :o

The point I'm really trying to make though, is about brain functionality. We already know testosterone affects the brain, and so does estrogen.

Women have monthly cycles which are very obvious, and men have cycles too, they're just faster cycles (ref link) (https://www.popsci.com/do-men-have-hormonal-cycles). Ever heard of IMS (https://www.thedailybeast.com/men-may-not-bleed-but-heres-why-they-have-periods)? Well me neither until today. It's kind of like PMS... (he he!)

Since men cycle faster, I think that would give men the capacity to think faster (or reason faster) than women.

That's not to say women are "slow thinkers" LOL, I'm sure we have our strong points too. For example "Women's Intuition" I do not think is a myth. Women really do have more potential there, I think so - mine is just not working at full capacity :)

[TargeT]

Since men cycle faster, I think that would give men the capacity to think faster (or reason faster) than women.

That's not to say women are "slow thinkers" LOL, I'm sure we have our strong points too. For example "Women's Intuition" I do not think is a myth. Women really do have more potential there, I think so - mine is just not working at full capacity :)

Men think in "boxes"

Women think in "wires"

It's often faster to sort and order boxes, but wires can lead to very interesting connections (intuition?)

not sure which is better, the styles do seem to work well together (when willing) however.

[petra]

Since men cycle faster, I think that would give men the capacity to think faster (or reason faster) than women.

That's not to say women are "slow thinkers" LOL, I'm sure we have our strong points too. For example "Women's Intuition" I do not think is a myth. Women really do have more potential there, I think so - mine is just not working at full capacity :)

Men think in "boxes"

Women think in "wires"

It's often faster to sort and order boxes, but wires can lead to very interesting connections (intuition?)

not sure which is better, the styles do seem to work well together (when willing) however.

I've heard the boxes idea before :) Not the wires though! Very cool... that makes sense to me. My "wiring" is related to my associations I imagine.

Additionally in regards to memory, I've heard it said men remember directions with street names better, whereas women remember better based off landmarks. That's certainly true for me - I prefer to use landmarks.

I didn't include the boxes because I thought I might offend someone with the "Nothing Box"....

One funny thing I recall hearing about is men's "Nothing Box". The example used was when a man is fishing. Generally speaking, when fishing men seem to prefer thinking about nothing. Must be nice!! I don't think I have a "Nothing Box" personally. I'm able to box my thoughts, but I have to do it selectively and on purpose.

[petra]

I was horrified to learn this stat just now - "Men are much more likely to commit suicide". I don't know what to say.... I'd have thought suicide rate would be equal in the sexes.
Any women reading this, let's take a moment to appreciate the huge sacrifice which our men are making.



But of the 5,981 deaths by suicide in the UK in 2012, more than three quarters (4,590) were males. In the US, of the 38,000 people who took their own lives in 2010, 79% were men.


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/21/suicide-gender-men-women-mental-health-nick-clegg
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-a.pdf

[TargeT]

I was horrified to learn this stat just now

Well, it does get worse....

https://pics.me.me/its-a-mans-world-male-prostate-cancer-vs-female-breast-34310733.png

[petra]

There's actually a percentage calculated for father's unknowingly raising a child that's not their own?!

Well GEE. Gotta hate it when the stats people know more about your child than you do. :facepalm:

[Vicus]

I'll kick off the thread here with some fairly firm views of my own. I'm not expecting everyone to agree! But this really is what I think and feel.


Men are physiologically and emotionally different from women, and always have been.



But many men are confused these days about their role. They sometimes feel cowed by strong feminists (and by a global agenda to promote feminism).



Many can even feel guilty for their feelings of strong male identity and sexuality, which they may be conflicted about and sometimes self-inhibit.



That doesn't mean they have to be cigar-chewing, gun-toting Neanderthals. :) But they can (and should!) still display courage, fight for what's right, defend and protect their families, and be proactive initiators of beneficial change.



Women can do all that, too, of course. And men can be sensitive, caring, nurturing, and supportive. There's significant overlap. But the primary roles are still distinct.

Discuss. :)

woman are power hungry, you now, Power corrupt and absolut Power corrupt absolutely. Absolutely powerful men are too world destroyers, but here comes the Beauty; men are the ONLY world (civilizations) builders. Not ONE civilization was ever made from woman. (source: official AND unofficial History and Archeology)... and when one was (not yet fund) don't` last long enough to tell the Tale. :cake:

[Mike]

Didn't know there was a men's day! I've never received a card or anything:)

I think the most important thing for a man is to be integrated. In other words, you don't repress or deny your aggressive or violent sides, you make friends with them. Integrate them. Because being aggressive and violent are often requirements for being a man. Men have always been providers and protecters. Like it or not, there will be times when violence and aggression are necessary. Doesn't take much imagination to think up some examples.

When you integrate those things, you rarely have to deploy them. Making friends with your violence and aggression makes it much less likely that you'll ever have to use them. Men that do this carry themselves with a certain grace. They're comfortable in their own skin and don't need to walk around puffing their chest out. You can pick these men out of a crowd. They exude self-assuredness. You intuitively know not to mess with them.

And these are the best of men - men that are fully capable of destruction and violence but actively choose not to engage it(unless necessary of course).

Men are asked to deny their nature these days. It's very dangerous. Deny or repress something long enough and it will surface with a vengeance..when you least expect it. So, teaching young men effective techniques for integration is the key, not raising them like little girls. If you make that mistake you get "toxic masculinity" , or distorted expressions of maleness (rape, domestic violence, etc) If you encourage and teach integration on the other hand, you get calm, assured, strong, competent, courageous, and responsible men. You get good providers and protectors, loyal and dedicated husbands, and confident and peaceful citizens

[TargeT]

I didn't include the boxes because I thought I might offend someone with the "Nothing Box"....

I usually refer to it as a "ball of wires" but I felt that was disparaging, so I left it out as well... haha


Didn't know there was a men's day! I've never received a card or anything:)

pretty sure white men need not apply.