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Bob
5th January 2019, 18:30
I was contemplating the level of posts made by me over the years, and noticed that my birth age (66) plus the posts now put me at 66 and 6,666 posts. I had just finished posting about India's efforts to mine Helium-3 on the moon. I looked over and saw the ominous number pattern..

A belief in 666 flashed by briefly ..

I looked at my feet, took off my sandals and checked... No cloven hooves were evident. (deep sigh of relief)..

Then I had an itch, was it a tail? Checking again alas and found no tail present.

Going over to a mirror I looked for any signs of horns. Nope, nothing there either..

So having a number pattern of all 6's just didn't seem to matter, no matter what beliefs may be present that such holds an ominous bearing... status quo was maintained, nothing changed..


http://chanlo.com/images/6666-PA.jpg

But the issue of BELIEF verses actuality is a very strong subject, laced with landmines, woven with assumptions that have been turned into a perceived reality, and whole institutions may have been built up, on flawed foundations...

Here is a great article about the blind men who found themselves in a forest and encountered an "Elephant" - it's another view expressing with much more detail how observations not built on complete solid foundations, but using anecdotes, or hearsay, or biases can distort real progress in understanding..


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is called "Elephant's Wings"


Once upon a time, four blind men were walking in the forest, and they bumped into an elephant.

Moe was in front, and found himself holding the trunk. "It has a tentacle," he said. "I think we have found a giant squid!"

Larry bumped into the side of the elephant. "It's a wall," he said, "A big, bristly wall."

Curly, at the back, touched the tail. "It's nothing to worry about, nothing but a piece of rope dangling in the trail."

Eagletosh saw the interruption as an opportunity to sit in the shade beneath a tree and relax. "It is my considered opinion," he said, "that whatever it is has feathers. Beautiful iridescent feathers of many hues."

The first three, being of a scientifical bent, quickly collaborated and changed places, and confirmed each other's observations; they agreed that each had been correct in the results of their investigations, except that there wasn't a hint of feathers anywhere about, but clearly their interpretations required correction and more data.

So they explored further, reporting to each other what they were finding, in order to establish a more complete picture of the obstacle in the path.

"Tracing the tentacle back, I find that it is attached to a large head with eyes, fan-shaped ears, and a mouth bearing tusks. It is not a squid, alas, but seems to be a large mammal of some sort," said Moe.

"Quite right, Moe — I have found four thick limbs. Definitely a large tetrapod," said Larry.

Curly seems distressed. "It's a bit complicated and delicate back here, guys, but I have probed an interesting orifice. Since this is a children's story, I will defer on reporting the details."

Eagletosh yawns and stretches in the shade of a tree. "It has wings, large wings, that it may ascend into the heavens and inspire humanity. There could be no purpose to such an animal without an ability to loft a metaphor and give us something to which we might aspire."

The other three ignore the idling philosopher, because exciting things are happening with their elephant!

"I can feel its trunk grasping the vegetation, uprooting it, and stuffing it into its mouth! It's prehensile! Amazing!", said Moe.

Larry presses his ear against the animal's flank. "I can hear rumbling noises as its digestive system processes the food! It's very loud and large."

There is a squishy plop from the back end. "Oh, no," says Curly, "I can smell that, and I think I should go take a bath."

"You are all completely missing the beauty of its unfurled wings," sneers Eagletosh, "While you tinker with pedestrian trivialities and muck about in earthy debasement, I contemplate the transcendant qualities of this noble creature. 'Tis an angel made manifest, a symbol of the deeper meaning of life."

"No wings, knucklehead, and no feathers, either," says Moe.

"Philistine," says Eagletosh. "Perhaps they are invisible, or tucked inside clever hidden pockets on the flank of the elephant, or better yet, I suspect they are quantum. You can't prove they aren't quantum."

The investigations continue, in meticulous detail by the three, and in ever broader strokes of metaphorical speculation by the one. Many years later, they have accomplished much.

Moe has studied the elephant and its behavior for years, figuring out how to communicate with it and other members of the herd, working out their diet, their diseases and health, and how to get them to work alongside people.

He has profited, using elephants as heavy labor in construction work, and he has also used them, unfortunately, in war. He has not figured out how to use them as an air force, however…but he is a master of elephant biology and industry.

Larry studied the elephant, but has also used his knowledge of the animal to study the other beasts in the region: giraffes and hippos and lions and even people. He is an expert in comparative anatomy and physiology, and also has come up with an interesting theory to explain the similarities and differences between these animals. He is a famous scholar of the living world.

Curly's experiences lead him to explore the environment of the elephant, from the dung beetles that scurry after them to the leafy branches they strip from the trees. He learns how the elephant is dependent on its surroundings, and how its actions change the forest and the plains. He becomes an ecologist and conservationist, and works to protect the herds and the other elements of the biome.

Eagletosh writes books. Very influential books. Soon, many of the people who have never encountered an elephant are convinced that they all have wings. Those who have seen photos are at least persuaded that elephants have quantum wings, which just happened to be vibrating invisibly when the picture was snapped.

He convinces many people that the true virtue of the elephant lies in its splendid wings — to the point that anyone who disagrees and claims that they are only terrestrial animals is betraying the beauty of the elephant.

Exasperated, Larry takes a break from writing technical treatises about mammalian anatomy, and writes a book for the lay public, The Elephant Has No Wings.

While quite popular, the Eagletoshians are outraged. How dare he denigrate the volant proboscidian? Does he think it a mere mechanical mammal, mired in mud, never soaring among the stars?

Has he no appreciation for the scholarship of the experts in elephant wings?

Doesn't he realize that he can't possibly disprove the existence of wings on elephants, especially when they can be tucked so neatly into the quantum? (The question of how the original prophets of wingedness came by their information never seems to come up, or is never considered very deeply.) It was offensive to cripple the poor elephants, rendering them earthbound.

When that book was quickly followed by Moe's The Elephant Walks and Curly's Land of the Elephant, the elephant wing scholars were in a panic — they were being attacked by experts in elephants, who seemed to know far more about elephants than they did! Fortunately, the scientists knew little about elephant's wings — surprising, that — and the public was steeped in favorable certainty that elephants, far away, were flapping gallantly through the sky.

They also had the benefit of vast sums of money.

Wealth was rarely associated with competence in matters elephantine, and tycoons were pouring cash into efforts to reconcile the virtuous wingedness of elephants with the uncomfortable reality of anatomy.

Even a few scientists who ought to know better were swayed over to the side of the winged; to their credit, it was rarely because of profit, but more because they were sentimentally attached to the idea of wings.

They couldn't deny the evidence, however, and were usually observed to squirm as they invoked the mystic power of the quantum, or of fleeting, invisible wings that only appeared when no one was looking.

And there the battle stands, an ongoing argument between the blind who struggle to explore the world as it is around them, and the blind who prefer to conjure phantoms in the spaces within their skulls. I have to disappoint you, because I have no ending and no resolution, only a question.

Where do you find meaning and joy and richness and beauty, O Reader? In elephants, or elephants' wings?

It's not hard to see in the story above, how often we see emotional fervor being expressed across oh so many topics in social media, in our day to day lives, encountering those who are absolutely so certain in "Elephant Wings" that they will gladly be rude and unkind to those who strive for objectivity, and "good signal to noise" in communications.

And I looked again just to be sure right before posting this thread, no tail, no horns, no hooves are present. And the posts have turned over to 6667.

The 666 is still there but I am slowly getting past it :)

article reprinted from: https://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/05/10/elephants-wings

DeDukshyn
5th January 2019, 19:31
 
It was a good story but I think it missed something or over simplified something.

Let's examine the philosopher's role in this story a bit. The other three blind men all had some feedback of some sort to form their analyses, while the philospher had none - he just made outrageous claims based on absolutely nothing.

Is this trying to indicate that "philosophers" give no consideration to anything before forming an idea? Because this is never the case. a Philosopher's point of view is more broad and holistic and sometimes a generalization, but it never forms out of nothing, or no feedback, in fact it is often based around what is actually known, but just a different perspective on it. Which would be almost the opposite of the picture this story portrays.



On a bit of a separate topic, I was thinking about atheism vs believer the other day and a few thoughts arose ...

The idea that there is no higher power out there requires belief in that. I'm willing to bet that there are trillions of things about our existence and universe that we do not know. The things we know compared to the things we don't know we don't know is infinitesimally small, so we must admit that the entire construct of our universe, and that which is beyond what we can perceive (perhaps "yet") is far beyond our ability to know or apply scientific reasoning to. Then you run into issues where different levels of scale behave entirely differently and follow all new sets of rules ... are there more of these "laws of physics bending" frequency scales that we have not yet encountered? Could well be.

So it takes an awful lot of faith to have such a firm belief that there isn't an intelligent order and even intelligent guidance to our universe or at least to Life itself. There is no evidence that it doesn't exist and us, only knowing a tiny fraction of what there is to know and likely only able to observe a tiny fraction of what there is to observe (on all levels including far beyond our sensory input), really don't know anywhere near enough to be able to have any form of confidence in such a stance. It would require a great amount "belief" and "faith" to maintain a strong atheistic stance.

On the opposite end, a person who has a belief in "god" because their religion that their parents forced on them told them to, but provided them no way to understand or be able to determine that themselves, requires also, a very strong "belief" or "faith" if they are even trying to believe.

It take more than either of those stances to become enveloped enough fully in life that you became aware and experience subtler things, odd things, impossible things, to understand that the world we live in is still just as magical, exciting and wonderful, as we saw it as children, we merely have become blinded to that by our arrogance of thinking we "already know everything" and that there is nothing more to explore and discover in even the simple life we have around us.

It is for certain that issues and beliefs, and trapped emotions, and subtle whisperings of doubt and fear, or ambitions of love and confidence, eagerness and expectation come out to view in our very own perceptions of our experiences personally ... is this the bias or is this the reality? How much of what we observe is a projection from within? A few would argue all of it; some of it is there in each of us - that is for certain. This throws a wrench into the gears of "science" itself and the famous (or infamous?) double slit experiment argues that that which we project as opposed to observe through our "scientific" methods could still well be 100%. Hard to believe as it is ...

Bob
5th January 2019, 19:43
It is perfect for starting such a discussion - excellent post DeDukshyn for opening up the belief verses reality/actuality discussion.

DeDukshyn
5th January 2019, 21:13
It is perfect for starting such a discussion - excellent post DeDukshyn for opening up the belief verses reality/actuality discussion.

This is one of my favourite topics to contemplate, and as you know, while I am firmly grounded in in science, maths and physics, and the scientific methods, I'll often throw that into the wind just to explore other perspectives or possibilities that potentially lie outside the possibility of the scientific method or observation to even have the ability to apply.

I personally believe that exploring things from both perspectives - a scientific one and a sheerly intuitive / philosophical one that begs to view the situation from an entirely different perspective, potentially provides a greater view than either on its own. However, it requires constant suspension of existing "belief" to explore further effectively - not something everyone is capable of or comfortable with.

Belief can be either a powerful tool or a powerful handicap, depending on how it is used.

I'l add to my thoughts later, I just would like a chance for any others interested in the topic a chance to share their musings.

Valerie Villars
5th January 2019, 21:18
Well Bob, based on my beliefs, unless I see a photo of you sans horns, cloven feet and tail, you just may be the devil after all. After all, most people believe he is the father of lies and you could be lying........

I know exactly what you mean about certain superstitions. They're had to get past.

Bob
5th January 2019, 21:23
Well Bob, based on my beliefs, unless I see a photo of you sans horns, cloven feet and tail, you just may be the devil after all. After all, most people believe he is the father of lies and you could be lying........

I know exactly what you mean about certain superstitions. They're had to get past.

I'd have to fake the photo and my adobe-photo-shoppe skills are highly lacking.. I have been told tho by a Bohemian Grover (seriously) that I am a handsome devil - they still tho didn't invite me to join, just visit for parties.. :( PS - I call them owlies instead of grovers cause of their Cremation of Care ceremony, can't say Kissinger tho will be around much more - wanted to lox and bagels with him and shoot the u know what before he passes..

PS - I "believe" that they find me either a buffoon for thinking that there is hope (Luke says to Darth vader, his daddy, I know there is good in you ! ) or I am more of the comic relief mascot 'pet' - they do admire good music and most certainly am into that belief that music can indeed calm the savage beastie..