Avalon "Grammar Police" and new comers...

[Denise/Dizi]

As a newer member, I found it difficult to adjust to some of the things I have experienced here. Not that anything was BAD, but some members have been here so long, everything is "old hat", and they're comfortable, and I think they forget that new comers aren't in the same "groove" just yet, so they're reading things entirely differently, I SURE DID...

Eventually I will settle in, and no longer notice those subtle things, but while I AM noticing, One came to my attention today, and it hit close to an experience I had here as a newbie on Avalon. And it was something that really hurt my feelings as a new member and I almost left as quickly as I had joined..

(I of course see it entirely differently now, but some new members aren't going to wait around to try to do such, and I think as a result Avalon MAY lose potential members as a result.. AND THAT is what prompted this post...)

As a new member, I came across a lot of threads, where someone would be writing something, and the next reply would appear to me as public shaming about their writing skills.. There would be comments about extra spaces, punctuation, etc.. You name it, it was there.. And it was complete with jokes about the "Grammar Police".. Yet there was NEVER any context to such things, it was like some quiet little "Grammar Group" was popping up to state the obvious, and the person receiving the replies were stupid for not knowing WHY they were saying such things.. As I NEVER saw any replies about WHY they were making these statements..

I had a run in with this type of experience shortly after I joined.. I had been writing about some experiences I had, and I use a macbook. On MY screen everything comes up, it has PLENTY of screen space, and it doesn't look particularly long winded at all. But one day Bill made a comment about how many words that I wrote, and went so far as to point out that he had even COUNTED THEM.. I was mortified to be called out that way. Not only was I called out? But THE BIG GUY DID IT... It hurt my feelings.. As I was looking at other posts and they appeared just as long, I literally began bashing my own writing skills, because I thought if I didn't joke about it, surely someone else would try to shame me because I didn't know the rules.... As a new member, and new to a forum in general, I had NO IDEA that people were accessing Avalon on smaller devices, and that perhaps another way would be better. I almost left that minute, and never looked back. I was embarrassed, hurt, and felt publicly shamed. The tread still exists, although I WISH someone would remove it... It is NOT a pleasant memory ...

What was worse was NO ONE came up and said WHY the word count MATTERED... Bill did give me advice on how to fix it, but never told me why it ever needed fixing to begin with.. I felt like I better "Write his way" or walk away... It wasn't until I saw on another thread, someone else being given advice for WHY this was important, that I even understood why Bill would even care how many words I wrote at all!.. OF COURSE THEN I took it as ADVICE... He wanted me to be more successful on Avalon.. And I sent him a message THANKING HIM for helping me.. And he DID offer me MORE ADVICE.. And again I was very thankful...

To be honest with you, I almost left Avalon after I saw the reply from Bill.. I didn't know his mannerisms, I didn't know it was advice, I took it to be shaming and PUBLIC at that. I was Humiliated.. Embarrassed... That he would be so blunt, and OPENLY.. I didn't know HOW to read that..

But here is the thing. The "Old Timer's" KNOW that Bill is blunt with his words, and that he uses few to express his opinions.. A new member doesn't know this.. He was giving me GREAT ADVICE, It was because I was new, that I took it to heart. And it really really DID hurt my feelings.. I didn't even know at that point if I even LIKED BILL anymore to be honest with you.. But I preservered.. I STOPPED posting however.. I started to look for other posts that Bill had made, and I began to realize this was just his way. He says what he means, and that's that. AND I saw he was trying to give me advice.. Not insult me at all... I was just too new to know his mannerisms.. But everyone else DOES.

So when I come across a new member I am very careful on how I approach my communications with them. I make sure they know the INTENT of my communications. Perhaps I am overly sensitive, but that is just my nature.. I ADORE BILL NOW.. And I think he knows it, BUT I DOUBT he ever KNEW that he hurt my feelings in such a way, nor would I ever believe that was his INTENTIONS.. And BILL isn't the only one on the forum that does this..

Someone recently asked how Avalon could be better.. and I will use Bill's advice here... (Not his exact words)..

Be specific... Get your point across clearly... And keep it simple...

and I would add to that.. remember that many people STILL need some hand holding when they get here.. They're NOT familiar with personalities, subtleties... personal mannerisms.. If you're going to point out something that could use some "fixing"... Explain WHY... So they don't feel singled out and embarrassed for not knowing.. If you don't want to, let someone else do it.. But don't pick apart their mistakes if you're not willing to provide viable options that are PLEASING to the site overall.. If I didn't have the time to stay and spend the time getting to know people, Avalon would be a distant memory for me already.. But now I consider it my home, and I ADORE the people here... Now that I am getting a better feel for who they are, and how they express themselves.

I saw someone get singled out in such a way, for not "making sense." In THAT case, you guys have a LOT more experience here than I do.. So I had to question if that person was deliberately being rude to get under everyone's skin.. I HOPE that was the case, because they're GONE now. And THAT sparked a debate all on it's own.. It reminded me of the situation I had.. And I thought "OH NO..." They're response to it was HIGHLY CONFRONTATIONAL however, so I doubt they were hurt, and perhaps it WAS deliberate. (Or could it be that they were hurt, and merely lashing out? We will never know)...

I just want the OLD TIMER'S TO REMEMBER us "new comers? " are just that... new... And we could use some guidance.. And for the newcomers.. Avalon is a wonderful place.. If you ever have something like this happen to you, know that it came from a place of caring.. And ask WHY it is important.. Rather than lashing back.

For FLASH who gracefully taught a new member something new today, in a very kind way KUDOS... That was very very kind of you to express WHY they should consider how they present information.. Even I learned something new.

[Kryztian]

I just want to say how I appreciate all those who come to this forum for whom English is not their first language. Those of us from English speaking nations have taken it for granted that English has become the lingua franca of this planet in the last century. It is a major life project to be able to learn to read and write in another language, especially a language like English which is so filled with irregularities. I just want to urge all of you to keep on writing and for those us who are native English speaks to continue to show understanding.

[Bill Ryan]

NO ONE came up and said WHY the word count MATTERED... Bill did give me advice on how to fix it, but never told me why it ever needed fixing to begin with.. I felt like I better "Write his way" or walk away... It wasn't until I saw on another thread, someone else being given advice for WHY this was important, that I even understood why Bill would even care how many words I wrote at all!.. OF COURSE THEN I took it as ADVICE... He wanted me to be more successful on Avalon.. And I sent him a message THANKING HIM for helping me.. And he DID offer me MORE ADVICE.. And again I was very thankful...

It was never about 'grammar'! The advice was simple and practical:

On a forum, very long personal posts (and long paragraphs) tend to be skipped by people who just won't read them.

Like a stone skipping over water, many people won't dive deep. They'll bounce off, and go to the post that follows. Or to a different thread.

That's also why short sentences, like this one — and the previous three! — tend to work better.

And short paragraphs, too. :)

[Spellbound]

Admittedly, Kevin Moore's grammar, spelling, and little nuances therein....kinda bugged me. But I agree with Bill that short and sweet tends to keep people's attention.

Edit - Gotta love a good "groove".

Dave - Toronto

[Bubu]

The OP should be an sticky on the welcome new members thread.

I think the message here belongs to the "Dont take anything personal" mantra.

welcome to avalon home schooling:)

[Mike]

I just want to say how I appreciate all those who come to this forum for whom English is not their first language. Those of us from English speaking nations have taken it for granted that English has become the lingua franca of this planet in the last century. It is a major life project to be able to learn to read and write in another language, especially a language like English which is so filled with irregularities. I just want to urge all of you to keep on writing and for those us who are native English speaks to continue to show understanding.



Yes!(to all of this) And thanks for this Kryztian. It's something we all need to be reminded of from time to time.

Dizi, I'm sorry you felt embarrassed there. There has been a slight emphasis on grammar in the last year or so, but I can't say I've ever seen anyone get attacked or shamed over it. I haven't read the post in question, but I'm sure Bill was just giving you a little humorous poke. Most of the time he is going out of his way to be exceedingly polite. I don't point this out to marginalize your experience, just to suggest that the intent behind a post and the way it is received are sometimes two entirely different things.

I'll be honest with you: a post as long as your first one here will generally scare me off . That may very well be more of an indictment on me than you! Maybe I'm just lazy. It's not a criticism, it's just some honest input, for what it's worth. Word count matters because it might be the difference between someone reading your post or not. So in that sense, it may be just as important as grammar.

I do very much appreciate you separating your post into manageable paragraphs. That's crucial. I wish all members would do it. I do think we're getting collectively better as a group, so that's good!

We do occasionally get members who write pretty incoherent posts, and usually it's not because they're unintelligent - they're just not putting any effort into making legible, articulate sentences. When we see that, we will ask that person for a better effort (politely). The way the forum is presented to the world is an important thing, for all sorts of reasons.

p.s. this post is likely too long!

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/reading.gif
I use to copy and paste the novelette posts into a word document. It got to be time consuming to break them up into readable paragraphs. Now, I skim, speed read, or like Bill pointed out jumped to the next post (or next thread).

Nothing personal. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/noidea.gif 24 hour days are now 18-20 hours. (some days even less)

♡

[Denise/Dizi]

NO ONE came up and said WHY the word count MATTERED... Bill did give me advice on how to fix it, but never told me why it ever needed fixing to begin with.. I felt like I better "Write his way" or walk away... It wasn't until I saw on another thread, someone else being given advice for WHY this was important, that I even understood why Bill would even care how many words I wrote at all!.. OF COURSE THEN I took it as ADVICE... He wanted me to be more successful on Avalon.. And I sent him a message THANKING HIM for helping me.. And he DID offer me MORE ADVICE.. And again I was very thankful...

It was never about 'grammar'! The advice was simple and practical:

On a forum, very long personal posts (and long paragraphs) tend to be skipped by people who just won't read them.

Like a stone skipping over water, many people won't dive deep. They'll bounce off, and go to the post that follows. Or to a different thread.

That's also why short sentences, like this one — and the previous three! — tend to work better.

And short paragraphs, too. :)

I am so glad you saw this Bill.

I don't think people know just how wonderful you were to me when I first came here, and ever since.. and how I completely misread it. I wanted to share the STORY.. (And yes it was very long. Sorry I didn't put your advice to good practical use..)

I do have a question .. and it may help others in their posts as well...

I don't use a small device. I have always used email for exchanges, so writing things in short sentences is a challenge for me.. So for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?

[Webz Libri]

As a newer member, I found it difficult to adjust to some of the things I have experienced here..

Diziblueyez >>> Don't change a thing!:thumbsup:

[Bill Ryan]

I am so glad you saw this Bill.

I don't think people know just how wonderful you were to me when I first came here, and ever since.. and how I completely misread it. I wanted to share the STORY.. (And yes it was very long. Sorry I didn't put your advice to good practical use..)

I do have a question .. and it may help others in their posts as well...

I don't use a small device. I have always used email for exchanges, so writing things in short sentences is a challenge for me.. So for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?

Well, your post here that I've quoted ^^ I'd say is perfect — in the way you've broken it up to make it super-simple to read at a glance.

:flower: :)

[norman]

So for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?



Think of a page of one of those fast moving dialog novels where the author takes short stabs at the page, or perhaps the script of one of those being made into a stage play.

I don't read much but I've seen pages like that and they are more inviting, fun to read, and quicker.

[RunningDeer]

for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?
My cell phone is 15+ years old, so no internet. This may give you a visual sample of your original post on a larger phone screen.

https://i.imgur.com/t2FHB50.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tVx7230.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wEfafPP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RuDPhVM.jpg

♡

[Debra]

So for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?

This is a screen grab from my iPhone 6, Diziblueyez, which is a little larger than most mobile screens.

40025

[Denise/Dizi]

I haven't read the post in question, but I'm sure Bill was just giving you a little humorous poke. Most of the time he is going out of his way to be exceedingly polite. I don't point this out to marginalize your experience, just to suggest that the intent behind a post and the way it is received are sometimes two entirely different things.

Thank you..

I want to clarify some things..

The takeaway from this was that Bill NEVER WAS in ANY WAY, anything other than kind, patient and very considerate of my new membership, in fact he went OUT OF HIS WAY to be kind and helpful.. . He didn't know that some of the things that he was telling me, made no sense at all. Because he wasn't sitting in my living room seeing what I was working with..

The intent of the post was to remind old members that new members may not know a few things. So their helpful advice may come off as something else entirely. For example.. I have NEVER used an iphone until late 2018 .. NO JOKE. So I had NO IDEA that you could even ACCESS Avalon on such a small device, so when people started saying use smaller sentences for "Space"? I would look at my laptop screen and think.. "Looks fine to me", Boy they're PICKY HAHAHAHA

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW UNTIL TODAY that people actually DO THAT!

It was all CONTEXT...

The story was to remind people that we are all in a different place.. So when he was counting words.. I thought WOW.. WHY? Of course that MAKES SENSE NOW.. I took it as a poke at my writing skills... I didn't know there could be any other reason for why he would suggest such things. I feel very foolish now. I hope Bill was LAUGHING when he saw that..

That post was more to be a "feel good" post about how there are some gaps between those FAMILIAR with Avalon, their devices, the ways they can access it, and such.. Versus those of us that are NEW. And when you're new and you don't even know that they're USING small screens... Those words of advice make absolutely NO SENSE. So I was more LAUGHING at my lack of experience with Bill. Poking fun at the fact that I got my little feelings hurt.. When he was nothing but kind and sweet.. And how possible others could avoid getting theirs hurt too, if we are all just aware that the new comers may not KNOW everything that the old timers do.. and that perhaps they could stand back and realize, there are some people in the world who are just getting internet for the very first time. And to have a little patience with them.. Like Bill had with me, and Flash did in another post for another member today.

That was what the post was SUPPOSED to be about. Tomorrow is Bill's birthday.. I wanted to share a post that reflected what a heck of a guy I thought he was.. And hopefully add some insight between the old members and the new, that's all.. (I will likely edit it down as well)

I come from the EMAIL era, and my friends tend to write me novels, old habits are hard to break... I am trying however.. I am still new

[Denise/Dizi]

for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?

♡

THANK YOU! That's what I wanted to know.. WOW.. OK.. That makes MUCH MORE SENSE NOW..

I never use my phone for such things so I had no idea.

(I didn't even know you could get to Avalon on a smart phone).. So when Bill told me to write short sentences and such, I still didn't fully grasp WHY.. Until I saw someone today writ something about Avalon and their PHONE..

[Denise/Dizi]

I am so glad you saw this Bill.

I don't think people know just how wonderful you were to me when I first came here, and ever since.. and how I completely misread it. I wanted to share the STORY.. (And yes it was very long. Sorry I didn't put your advice to good practical use..)

I do have a question .. and it may help others in their posts as well...

I don't use a small device. I have always used email for exchanges, so writing things in short sentences is a challenge for me.. So for reference sake, how long of a paragraph would be appropriate, and effective, when taking into consideration a smaller screen?

Well, your post here that I've quoted ^^ I'd say is perfect — in the way you've broken it up to make it super-simple to read at a glance.

:flower: :)

Thank You bill. You have been so wonderful helping me. Now that I see how they APPEAR, I fully understand the advice..

I had NO CLUE... I hope that you have a Happy Birthday...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Anyone got any advice on how to edit my original post? hahahahahaa oh boy...

[Innocent Warrior]

I too was ready to leave this forum when I first joined, after my first week. Also a very sensitive person myself and not having had much social contact for a few years at the time, I experienced quite the culture shock when I arrived here on Avalon. A different issue for me but I hear you, I was utterly overwhelmed by it and appreciate the reminder.

It takes time to get to know fellow members, each individual personality, who we’ll communicate with productively and effectively and who we won’t so much, hence where to post, what, and to whom. Also things like comprehending what they’re communicating and the intent etc.

It takes time to learn forum etiquette too, what’s effective and what’s not, and that varies from forum to forum. For some this is a natural flow, while others find themselves feeling like they need to adjust the way they communicate quite a lot.

It’s not simple, especially for people who haven’t written online much, and tend to dive into things head first, like myself at the time.

I appreciate the caring and honesty and especially the open and direct manner in which you have chosen to offer insights into what it’s like to be a new member. Thank you, Diziblueyez. We endeavour to strike a balance of quality and being warm and welcoming and this thread is very helpful, I hope other newer members contribute to it too.

:yo:

[Flash]

Thank you for mentioning that I did fine for mentioning spacing and paragraphs to a new member - while reading I thought up to the end that I had made a bubu (no Bubu, it is not you here here lol), that I was the cause of discomfort.

Writing this on my Iphone truly;)

[RunningDeer]

Anyone got any advice on how to edit my original post? hahahahahaa oh boy...
Diziblueyez, I'm in a literal mind set at the moment. I'm unsure if you've asked for a suggestion or if you're joking.

What may help is if you read aloud the first two paragraphs. I was taught there’s a slight pause between sentences. It’s a challenge to read through and stay focused because I’m waiting for that natural pause.

Notice there are two sentences in both paragraphs. Each has a really long sentence.




As a newer member, I found it difficult to adjust to some of the things I have experienced here. Not that anything was BAD, but some members have been here so long, everything is "old hat", and they're comfortable, and I think they forget that new comers aren't in the same "groove" just yet, so they're reading things entirely differently, I SURE DID...

Eventually I will settle in, and no longer notice those subtle things, but while I AM noticing, One came to my attention today, and it hit close to an experience I had here as a newbie on Avalon. And it was something that really hurt my feelings as a new member and I almost left as quickly as I had joined..


♡

[RunningDeer]

Thank you for mentioning that I did fine for mentioning spacing and paragraphs to a new member - while reading I thought up to the end that I had made a bubu (no Bubu, it is not you here here lol), that I was the cause of discomfort.

Writing this on my Iphone truly;)

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/kiss.gif.....https://i.imgur.com/CmhIveh.gif

https://i.imgur.com/ytPXBBn.jpg

♡

[Denise/Dizi]

Thank you for mentioning that I did fine for mentioning spacing and paragraphs to a new member - while reading I thought up to the end that I had made a bubu (no Bubu, it is not you here here lol), that I was the cause of discomfort.

Writing this on my Iphone truly;)

Ok flash, you DID NOT AT ALL MAKE A BOO BOO, wanna laugh? I ride a motorcycle. A BIG motorcycle, and as such, I was always afraid to buy an expensive smart phone.. Thought I may break the screen if I dropped it.

If you had not written that out my friend? I NEVER would have known that people were even viewing posts on their phones at all! I seriously did not know! I RARELY use my iphone to even call people, much less to web surf.. I have a laptop for that.

So when I saw your post.. It was like the clouds parted and Jesus himself was singing to me. EVERYTHING MADE SENSE.. It just took the right post to make everything CLICK... For MONTHS Bill has been trying to give me proper advice, and I truly appreciated it, but I didn't "Get it" HAHAHA.. So I never USED IT.

I felt people would like to know how patient he has been and how difficult that was for me. I APPLAUD the advice you gave, that was why I wrote this post! And I wanted to remind people that indeed new comers MAY HAVE DIFFICULTIES lol. For reasons we couldn't imagine .. No one would ever guess I don't use a smart phone like that ..

[Flash]

Thanks.

As for the grammar, lolll, I never had any problems here from members. They are very patient with me. Or else they don’t read, who knows.

Thanks for correcting my ‘boo boo instead of bubu’. English is sometimes French to me (laughing out loud here, hope my play of words is funny -I can rarely do that in English -condemned to seriousness)

[Denise/Dizi]

Anyone got any advice on how to edit my original post? hahahahahaa oh boy...
Diziblueyez, I'm in a literal mind set at the moment. I'm unsure if you've asked for a suggestion or if you're joking.

What may help is if you read aloud the first two paragraphs. I was taught there’s a slight pause between sentences. It’s a challenge to read through and stay focused because I’m waiting for that natural pause.

Notice there are two sentences in both paragraphs. Each has a really long sentence.




As a newer member, I found it difficult to adjust to some of the things I have experienced here. Not that anything was BAD, but some members have been here so long, everything is "old hat", and they're comfortable, and I think they forget that new comers aren't in the same "groove" just yet, so they're reading things entirely differently, I SURE DID...

Eventually I will settle in, and no longer notice those subtle things, but while I AM noticing, One came to my attention today, and it hit close to an experience I had here as a newbie on Avalon. And it was something that really hurt my feelings as a new member and I almost left as quickly as I had joined..


♡

Running Deer..

It was BOTH.. serious AND a joke...

I am very new to a forum or sites like this at all, especially when they can be used on an iphone. facebook was really one of the only sites I regularly used, and it was family, so I could write all day if I wanted to.

Now that i SEE how it appears.. I can't do that. Yet the post is already there.

I am not good at getting complex ideas across in short sentences, as you have already noticed... I drag emotions into everything..

I can say this..

I wanted people to know the story of how I came to know Bill, trust him, are really respect him, and all he does, and has done for me personally.. Tomorrow is his birthday, and I wanted him to know how he impacted me here. (It was meant to leave people with a feel good feeling, and I had hoped that Bill would walk away knowing that I felt he truly was a STAND UP kind of guy...)

secondly.. I wanted to remind people that while THEY may know all the subtle nuances of both forum etiquette, and online options, new people may not, and how they approach the new people DOES make a difference.

third. I wanted the new people, if they ever felt as I had.. To hang in there. It does get better, and from what I have found, NONE of those hurt feelings ever should have happened to begin with.. And if we all recognize we're using different tools, and coming from different places.. Perhaps that will not happen to someone else, while they try to get up to speed. I truly love the family I have at Avalon.. And I almost left, because I didn't think people had the patience to work with me. BILL DID. But I didn't "Get it" for lack of my own knowledge of what he was suggesting.

I DO want people to read it.. So I feel I should somehow shorten it. But I don't want to lose that emotional element to it, as short posts can do.. So I DO need help. And I may as well ask while I have the thread open and people reading it, who truly care right?..

[Bubu]

Thank you for mentioning that I did fine for mentioning spacing and paragraphs to a new member - while reading I thought up to the end that I had made a bubu (no Bubu, it is not you here here lol), that I was the cause of discomfort.

Writing this on my Iphone truly;)

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/kiss.gif.....https://i.imgur.com/CmhIveh.gif

https://i.imgur.com/ytPXBBn.jpg

♡

Oh well I guees my father dont know what bubu means globally. but I am fortunate not to need that band-aid thanks anyway:)

[Justplain]

Diz, what I found a bit daunting when I first joined Avalon was something I find no fault in, which actually I support wholeheartedly, was being asked to substantiate facts or opinions that I expressed. I didn't find any grammar policing, and haven't noticed that. I also strongly support the 'short but sweet' approach to posts, for instance, I stopped reading the OP halfway, thought it was just sort of embellishing points already made.

BTW, Diz, I appreciate that you have stuck around after initially exposing some potentially sensitive experiences.
The fact that you have stuck around speaks large about how good Avalon is.

Thanks for sharing.

[Strat]

As a new member, I came across a lot of threads, where someone would be writing something, and the next reply would appear to me as public shaming about their writing skills.. There would be comments about extra spaces, punctuation, etc.. You name it, it was there.. And it was complete with jokes about the "Grammar Police".. Yet there was NEVER any context to such things, it was like some quiet little "Grammar Group" was popping up to state the obvious, and the person receiving the replies were stupid for not knowing WHY they were saying such things.. As I NEVER saw any replies about WHY they were making these statements..

I may be guilty of this, not sure. The only time I complain is if there's like a 600 word post that has zero spacing. It's very difficult to read at that point, I'd have to paste it somewhere and space it out to make sense of it. Anyway, if I did contribute to this then I'm sorry. Duly noted and wont happen again. That being said I always do say I don't give a **** where you put your comma so long as you have something to bring to the table.

Oh and maybe this will give ya a good laugh, kinda dumb but I think its funny:
8Gv0H-vPoDc

[Flash]

As a new member, I came across a lot of threads, where someone would be writing something, and the next reply would appear to me as public shaming about their writing skills.. There would be comments about extra spaces, punctuation, etc.. You name it, it was there.. And it was complete with jokes about the "Grammar Police".. Yet there was NEVER any context to such things, it was like some quiet little "Grammar Group" was popping up to state the obvious, and the person receiving the replies were stupid for not knowing WHY they were saying such things.. As I NEVER saw any replies about WHY they were making these statements..

I may be guilty of this, not sure. The only time I complain is if there's like a 600 word post that has zero spacing. It's very difficult to read at that point, I'd have to paste it somewhere and space it out to make sense of it. Anyway, if I did contribute to this then I'm sorry. Duly noted and wont happen again. That being said I always do say I don't give a **** where you put your comma so long as you have something to bring to the table.

Oh and maybe this will give ya a good laugh, kinda dumb but I think its funny:
8Gv0H-vPoDc

What I like the most in your video is 'get out of the gene pool' rhyme for having bad grammar lollllllll.

I have never been in the Anglo-Saxon gene pool anyhow, so I am safe. I can misspell in the English language.

[Bill Ryan]

I have never been in the Anglo-Saxon gene pool anyhow, so I am safe. I can misspell in the English language.

You may remember this, from almost a year ago:



I wish to express my deep admiration and appreciation of all those here who are not native English speakers.

Yes, truly. :star:

In fact — and I do hope everyone understands this quip! — I REALLY REALLY enjoy reading Flash's posts. (For newer members: Flash lives in Montreal, and French is her first language.) They're thoughtful and beautifully crafted, and sometimes very slightly quirky. :heart: Her heart and meaning invariably shine through brightly.

It's like listening to a lovely accent. If they suddenly became flawlessly perfect... I'd feel something was lost in translation.

:)

If I remember right, you had to go look up what 'quirky' meant. :P

Don't change a thing!! :heart:

[Denise/Dizi]

You guys are so awesome...

By the way. The title "Grammar Police" was something I stole from someone else's post .. It was a blanket term I used when trying to define others pointing out "presentation" issues in general.

I am looking at posts that exemplify the points that Bill was trying to make. But I have to admit, I am still seeing everything on a large screen, so it is challenging at best. And my writing skills with putting complex ideas into short sentences, well. I need a LOT of work.

I am still struggling with "Short and Sweet , or "One liner" replies..

I feel that writing "Short and sweet", can sometimes lead to misunderstandings of the intentions behind the words, and as such, people can read into things too easily. Or misunderstand the feel of the post entirely. And that leads to conflict or hurt feelings if something is taken the wrong way.

I have noticed that when most people bicker on Avalon, it is over a "short and sweet" reply that comes off as confrontational, rather than helpful. (Even when it never was intended to be).. And for the next 5 posts we see people "back pedaling" trying to express they didn't MEAN to sound disrespectful..

Am I wrong here? I notice this, surely others have as well? So having recognized this, I do not wish to DO THAT when cutting my posts to short ones. So I was DELIBERATELY AVOIDING short and sweet replies. As I said, I am trying to better get my ideas across, while avoiding pitfalls of misunderstandings. Being aware that other do get their feelings hurt, I do not wish to be the one to hurt someone else's feelings..

So when I write, I battle with this as well, and THAT is why I add my emotions. So people do not take my words for something they're not. I am trying to find a way to still do that, without writing novels HAHAHA.. Thank you for being patient with me.. And thank you for all of the advice I am receiving in messages, you guys are wonderful!

I just feel that friendships are something to be nurtured, and as such, I am looking at the things that cause conflict here, and trying to eliminate those elements from my experience here...

These are new friendships for me, Avalon is not just a sounding board that I intend to "Hit and Run", and as such, I just wish to make sure that others know the KIND of person I am. And the intents behind my words.

In many ways I am SAD that we have the internet, as effective and thoughtful communications have been replaced with tag lines and meme's. I guess I am old school..

[Strat]

I am still struggling with "Short and Sweet , or "One liner" replies..

I feel that writing "Short and sweet", can sometimes lead to misunderstandings of the intentions behind the words, and as such, people can read into things too easily. Or misunderstand the feel of the post entirely. And that leads to conflict or hurt feelings if something is taken the wrong way.

I have noticed that when most people bicker on Avalon, it is over a "short and sweet" reply that comes off as confrontational, rather than helpful. (Even when it never was intended to be).. And for the next 5 posts we see people "back pedaling" trying to express they didn't MEAN to sound disrespectful..

Am I wrong here?

You're not wrong, you hit the nail on the head. This is in part why I don't post much, I'm very mentally tired 24/7 and my thoughts do require a text wall. 1 liners don't cut it and like you said are quickly misinterpreted. Hell, my last post where I said i don't care about commas so long as you 'bring something to the table', I got thinking that THAT could be misconstrued.

I hesitate giving you advice regarding your posts cause frankly there's nothing wrong with them IMO. If you were writing an article or something maybe I'd change it up a bit but for a rapid fire forum I like your posts. They're like a giant middle finger to twitter and the culture it breeds.

[Flash]

I am still struggling with "Short and Sweet , or "One liner" replies..

I feel that writing "Short and sweet", can sometimes lead to misunderstandings of the intentions behind the words, and as such, people can read into things too easily. Or misunderstand the feel of the post entirely. And that leads to conflict or hurt feelings if something is taken the wrong way.

I have noticed that when most people bicker on Avalon, it is over a "short and sweet" reply that comes off as confrontational, rather than helpful. (Even when it never was intended to be).. And for the next 5 posts we see people "back pedaling" trying to express they didn't MEAN to sound disrespectful..

Am I wrong here?

You're not wrong, you hit the nail on the head. This is in part why I don't post much, I'm very mentally tired 24/7 and my thoughts do require a text wall. 1 liners don't cut it and like you said are quickly misinterpreted. Hell, my last post where I said i don't care about commas so long as you 'bring something to the table', I got thinking that THAT could be misconstrued.

I hesitate giving you advice regarding your posts cause frankly there's nothing wrong with them IMO. If you were writing an article or something maybe I'd change it up a bit but for a rapid fire forum I like your posts. They're like a giant middle finger to twitter and the culture it breeds.

Right, Dizzy, now you put some paragraph spacing, much better. I do speed reading, so your long posts are not too bad if spaced into paragraphs often. However, for most readers, probably that the same idea being pursued in many different posts is better - while at the same time answering to some posters who came in between. My ideas about it anyhow, do as you like and be relax about it.

Same for you Strat - I do remember some problems of interpretation happening around you in the past. I am sorry it led to you writing less. You are an interesting member.

[Mike]

Dizi, my advice to you (for what it's worth!) is this: while writing a post, try to think like a reader and not like a writer.

The writer in me totally understands your desire to write long, detailed posts. Sometimes I just never feel like I've sufficiently hammered the point home enough, and want to go on and on with it. The writer in me has to fight that desire. The reader in me is pleased when I succeed in that.

If I've written a long'ish post, I'll often go back and slowly start trimming off the fat. Quite often, there is quite a bit I can erase or maybe shorten.

Short, power-packed sentences go a long way. And presentation helps too, like using the bold emphasis, or the underline effect, etc (the B, I and the U underneath the font options)

[Flash]

I have never been in the Anglo-Saxon gene pool anyhow, so I am safe. I can misspell in the English language.

You may remember this, from almost a year ago:



I wish to express my deep admiration and appreciation of all those here who are not native English speakers.

Yes, truly. :star:

In fact — and I do hope everyone understands this quip! — I REALLY REALLY enjoy reading Flash's posts. (For newer members: Flash lives in Montreal, and French is her first language.) They're thoughtful and beautifully crafted, and sometimes very slightly quirky. :heart: Her heart and meaning invariably shine through brightly.

It's like listening to a lovely accent. If they suddenly became flawlessly perfect... I'd feel something was lost in translation.

:)

If I remember right, you had to go look up what 'quirky' meant. :P

Don't change a thing!! :heart:

Well, in a few days, you will be listening to the accent as well - haven't spoken English only for a while, I am rusted, and a bit nervous. And I have a strong accent, so you will all know right away who is that lady. FLASH!!!

[Bill Ryan]

Well, in a few days, you will be listening to the accent as well - haven't spoken English only for a while, I am rusted, and a bit nervous. And I have a strong accent, so you will all know right away who is that lady. FLASH!!!

We may need to get you one of these. :)

http://projectavalon.net/Flash_costume.jpg

:focus:

[Strat]

Same for you Strat - I do remember some problems of interpretation happening around you in the past. I am sorry it led to you writing less. You are an interesting member.

Much love, no worries.

FWIW I take responsibility for misinterpretation of my posts. This wouldn't happen if I text walled, again just too tired. But then again this is why I don't post so much, and I don't think it's a bad thing: If I disagree with folks (which I often do) I don't wanna be the guy that just pops in, says everyone is wrong, then leaves. Those are the most annoying 1 liners ever. I did it in the 5g thread (sorry!).

Anyway, Avalon group hug time!

[AriG]

I don’t read long winded posts. My personal POV is that if the poster cannot be precise and succinct then I am not wasting precious life time ascertaining their point. That said, don’t fall for the social conditioning that arises with group think. Be your own person and dont seek the approval of those that you might perceive as authority figures. To do so is cult worship. Don’t get tied in knots trying to cow toe to the echo chamber. The point of this forum is supposed to be about truth seeking- not approval seeking. IMHO of course.

[Constance]

Dizi, my advice to you (for what it's worth!) is this: while writing a post, try to think like a reader and not like a writer.

The writer in me totally understands your desire to write long, detailed posts. Sometimes I just never feel like I've sufficiently hammered the point home enough, and want to go on and on with it. The writer in me has to fight that desire. The reader in me is pleased when I succeed in that.

If I've written a long'ish post, I'll often go back and slowly start trimming off the fat. Quite often, there is quite a bit I can erase or maybe shorten.

Short, power-packed sentences go a long way. And presentation helps too, like using the bold emphasis, or the underline effect, etc (the B, I and the U underneath the font options)

Brilliantly said Mike. :clapping:

[Flash]

Well, in a few days, you will be listening to the accent as well - haven't spoken English only for a while, I am rusted, and a bit nervous. And I have a strong accent, so you will all know right away who is that lady. FLASH!!!

We may need to get you one of these. :)

http://projectavalon.net/Flash_costume.jpg

:focus:

Hilarious Oh la la! I am ROLF here.

I just wish I had the same shape!!! And leaving the fastest man alive in the dust!! lollll that is for sure if he is that fast (Oh my god, you make me say stupid things ... and on a forum!!!)

I am chubby and not that women age.... you will be disillusioned.

God, for the conference, I was generously and genuinely offered to share a room with two younger men, in order to help me with the money, which I refused, I am probably not French enough. My girl friends will think I am crazy to have refused.

and now this.....

still rolfing, those 5 days over there look... well, it will be joyful. lollllllllllllllllllll

[AriG]

Well, in a few days, you will be listening to the accent as well - haven't spoken English only for a while, I am rusted, and a bit nervous. And I have a strong accent, so you will all know right away who is that lady. FLASH!!!

We may need to get you one of these. :)

http://projectavalon.net/Flash_costume.jpg

:focus:

Hilarious Oh la la! I am ROLF here.

I just wish I had the same shape!!! And leaving the fastest man alive in the dust!! lollll that is for sure if he is that fast (Oh my god, you make me say stupid things ... and on a forum!!!)

I am chubby and not that women age.... you will be disillusioned.

God, for the conference, I was generously and genuinely offered to share a room with two younger men, in order to help me with the money, which I refused, I am probably not French enough. My girl friends will think I am crazy to have refused.

and now this.....

still rolfing, those 5 days over there look... well, it will be joyful. lollllllllllllllllllll

Flash,

You need not make any apologies for who you are as a conscious being or whatever space suit you choose to wear in this incarnation. My very favorite outfit is a very old pair of jeans that have been washed so many times that they have the texture of silk.

Masochism sucks. And it’s a control mechanism. Never apologize for the beautiful being that you are!

[Flash]

loil that would not be that suit for sure, I would not fit in.

It is soooo not me lolllllllllll

I am not judging my being at all. I found the idea absolutely funny, laughing to tears.

I do have a good sense of humour as long as it is genuine.

I will be myself, no worries, I have learned.

[Denise/Dizi]

Right, Dizzy, now you put some paragraph spacing, much better. I do speed reading, so your long posts are not too bad if spaced into paragraphs often. However, for most readers, probably that the same idea being pursued in many different posts is better - while at the same time answering to some posters who came in between. My ideas about it anyhow, do as you like and be relax about it.

Same for you Strat - I do remember some problems of interpretation happening around you in the past. I am sorry it led to you writing less. You are an interesting member.

Thanks Flash.. It is very helpful!

Mike, Thank You for the advice as well, I will take that into consideration.. It actually should help me as well..

And for Arig, I appreciate the words of encouragement to remain who I am, and not "conform". I am not trying to "Conform" at all, I am merely trying to structure my posts in an effective way, that doesn't add to confusion over intentions or what I was trying to post. I asked for the help as a new member.

These kind people have been showing me some things I was not aware of, and I realized I may be limiting my interactions with some wonderful members by using the format improperly, that's all.