The Electric Car Scam

[bojancan]

I received the following in an email. If the math here is correct, this is a big eye opener. What do you think? I could not find a relevant thread, so I opened a new one. If it exists, moderators merge please.

>>ELECTRIC  CARS --🚗<<
 
In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car: Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I’ve ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they’re being shoved down our throats.  Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.
 
At a neighbourhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbour, a BC Hydro executive.  I asked him how that renewable thing was doing.  He laughed, then got serious.  If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities.  For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service.  The average house is equipped with 100 amp service.  On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each.  For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!  This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following.  Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway.  It’s enlightening.
 
Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.”  Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery.  So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph.  Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours.  In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity.  It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
 
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.  I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.  $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.  Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg.  $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.
 
So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
 
 


 

[Bubu]

that's an easy math to do if you have an electric car. A high school student can do it if desired. A multi meter..

Another example of believe by faith "the engineers did the math already..."

[TargeT]

$1.16 per kwh
 


Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....

So this whole article is kind of hilarious... especially this:


So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math,

He kinda failed at the math tho... eh?


The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each

And this guy has no clue how electricity works.... you can easily get higher amp service (for a co$t of course) and it won't take away from neighbors etc..

This whole thing is written poorly with no research it seems.

[Strat]

Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....


Isn't this due to the fact that we run primarily on coal (very cheap kwh)? Technically a coal powered car then.

And yeah I have a basic welder that's 140 amps that plugs into my wall no prob haha. Never tripped a breaker or anything. Also just had the electrician extend a 220v line out to my shop/area. No biggy.

[anandacate]

One main concern with electric or hybrid vehicles is the emission of electromagnetic radiation (https://www.saferemr.com/2014/07/shouldnt-hybrid-and-electric-cars-be-re.html).

[Joe Akulis]

I think we're going to see even more of a push, maybe not as soon in the US as elsewhere. All the news about various countries going up to the moon so they can harvest moon dust and bring it back...

What's the stuff they're after, Deuterium 3 or something like that?

The fusion reactor tech that is based on this fuel from the moon is starting to sound like something the global bosses might possibly be settling on as the next big energy production technology. (The next one that will be allowed, mind you. Can't have energy production that isn't controlled, of course.)

Oil and coal won't last forever, but we won't see much in the way of a big alternative until every last ounce of profit can be gained from them first. If the future plan is to roll into this new reactor tech using that stuff from the moon, then you will start to see economic transitions to move a lot of infrastructure over to even more electric/battery power than we have today.

Just a theory tho.

[TargeT]

Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....


Isn't this due to the fact that we run primarily on coal (very cheap kwh)? Technically a coal powered car then.

And yeah I have a basic welder that's 140 amps that plugs into my wall no prob haha. Never tripped a breaker or anything. Also just had the electrician extend a 220v line out to my shop/area. No biggy.


That coal line sounds like some "global warming" propaganda.... nuclear and hydro are by far the cheapest.

The US mainly gets it's power (https://www.uschamber.com/series/above-the-fold/these-10-power-plants-produce-the-most-electricity-america) from Nuclear (and has for a while) and a lot of it from Hydro electric... so extremely "green" (bull**** term IMO) power for the most part.


I think we're going to see even more of a push, maybe not as soon in the US as elsewhere. All the news about various countries going up to the moon so they can harvest moon dust and bring it back...

What's the stuff they're after, Deuterium 3 or something like that?

The fusion reactor tech that is based on this fuel from the moon is starting to sound like something the global bosses might possibly be settling on as the next big energy production technology.

It's helium3 (https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Preparing_for_the_Future/Space_for_Earth/Energy/Helium-3_mining_on_the_lunar_surface)

[DeDukshyn]

$1.16 per kwh
 


Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....

So this whole article is kind of hilarious... especially this:


So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math,

He kinda failed at the math tho... eh?


The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each

And this guy has no clue how electricity works.... you can easily get higher amp service (for a co$t of course) and it won't take away from neighbors etc..

This whole thing is written poorly with no research it seems.

Yup ... A volt should be getting at least 50 miles to a charge, not 25; charge sustaining mode should be roughly 42 MPG not 30, A volt uses 15 amps to charge the battery not 75 (conflation) -- your clothes dryer will use 30-40 amps. The current system can handle everyone drying their clothes right?

Also, do people charge their cars 24h/7?


I am sure there is a valid concern in there somewhere, but when the premise is rife with errors, thus so must be the conclusion ...

[Cardillac]

my stand point from here in Germany:

the buying cost of electric cars starts ca. 35k Euros; this is an enormous sum; according to gleaned reports there are only 16k loading stations at this time in Germany and my visual observations have observed that almost all of the loading places are constantly being occupied (how long does it take an electro car to fully 'tank'?) so if one needs to load up you may have to wait in line a long time; plus where do you park it while waiting your turn for your loading?

obviously the electro car is in its infancy stages (as if there aren't other more advanced technologies out there) but at this time I just don't think the price paid in all aspects is worth it-

Larry

[Ernie Nemeth]

Just to clear things up about the article and how charging a car battery that requires 75 amps @ 240 volts reduces the number of homes that can deliver that amount of power. I am not a lineman so this is mostly theoretical, but I can explain what they are talking about. In a residential neighborhood electricity along the poles is at 600 volts (it can be higher). On the pole or on the ground will be the step-down transformers that take this three-phase power (3 legs of 600 volts each) and reduce it to 240volts per phase.

The average transformer can feed six homes with between 100 and 200 amps each supplied by two of the three step-down phases. If one household takes an additional 75 amps and uses it steady for ten hours to charge a car that transformer can only provide three of the homes with the additional power.

However, this in fact is not simple math. The power consumption of the average household never reaches its capacity - not even close. So although the transformer rating may say it cannot deliver the power required to each home it services, the only time of the day it might trip out is at dinner time, and if every home uses the dryer and oven at the exact same time. Otherwise the services as designed can take the additional load.

What can't take the load is the power plant feeding those millions of homes - that can't take the additional strain.

[DeDukshyn]

...

However, this in fact is not simple math. The power consumption of the average household never reaches its capacity - not even close. So although the transformer rating may say it cannot deliver the power required to each home it services, the only time of the day it might trip out is at dinner time, and if every home uses the dryer and oven at the exact same time. Otherwise the services as designed can take the additional load.

What can't take the load is the power plant feeding those millions of homes - that can't take the additional strain.


And to add, most people will be charging at night when most other electrical uses are not active ...


I found this: https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/home-charging-installation -- it paints quite a different story (than the OP) on household charging amps required and time needed to charge (at least in regards to Teslas) ... according to this, a charge at 16 amps for 8 hours will yield at least 100km of driving in their least efficient car. Since 100kms will last the average person a good several days; charging is only going to happen maybe once or twice a week. Also the Tesla cars themselves won't accept more than 48 amps -- all that's a far cry from imagining 75 amps 24/7 on the power grid in each home.

[bojancan]

I am grateful to all of you who clarified, corrected and added valuable info to my original post. In spite of inaccuracies I believe the post was useful; at list it facilitated positive conversation. I posted it as I received it, without any scientific claims or references. The intention was to warn us about possible scam, ripoff etc.

There are so many areas where governments neglect or purposely ignore real research and blindly follow someones agendas - as well as their own agendas, (for example 5G, vaccines, causing harm with electromagnetic radiation, etc), so one could safely assume that also in this area we are far from transparency.

[spade]

7bIBs8GuUYY

[onevoice]

I would like to refute the OP with my firsthand knowledge with a 2017 Chevrolet Volt that I own. It's possible the OP's account of Volt is with a badly maintained first generation Volt.

In Atlanta, GA current gasoline price for regular grade costs $2.46/gallon.

So my car can average 43 mpg driving around Atlanta: $2.46 / 43 mpg = $0.057/ mile energy cost.

General Motors advertises 31Kwh energy consumed for 100 miles. A caveat is that this efficiency rate is dependent upon ambient outdoor temperature. If the average ambient outdoor temperature is above 70 Fahrenheit, then the Volt is most likely to get this rate. Otherwise if the ambient outdoor temperate is near freezing temperature, then the efficiency rate of driving on battery goes way down.

My local electric rate is $0.07 / Kwh. So 31 KWh X 0.07 = $1.12 for 100 miles range. $2.17/100 = $0.0217 / mile energy cost.

Gas cost to drive 100 miles:
100 miles X $0.057 = $5.70

Electricity cost to drive 100 miles:
100 miles X $0.0217 = $2.17

Monthly cost of 1000 miles on electricity = $21.70, while monthly cost on gasoline alone would be $57.

I like the fact that my Volt has both electric motors and gasoline engine that can drive the car. If I run out of battery, I can continue to drive another 382 miles. Refilling with gasoline as needed, I can continue to drive like any other ICE or a hybrid car without having to charge my battery for as long as I want to go continuously without any downtime. GM advertises 420 total range for full battery and full gasoline tank for the 2nd generation Volt, which I own. The fist generation Volt did not have as good range as the 2nd generation.

My Volt keeps track of ICE oil life. In the 2.5 years that I've owned my Volt, I only had to change the oil twice. Because my Volt uses the electric motors to slow down the car to about 5 mph, my brakes are expected to last at least 10 years or more before they need to be replaced.

Also I've been easier on the planet earth by not having emitted so much carbon dioxide and other by products of ICE.

With these real life first hand experiences, I've saved a lot of money and time by not having to visit gasoline stations as much as I would for an ICE car.

[bojancan]

Eventually governments will ‘wake up’ and realize that electric cars don’t contribute to maintaining roads which gasoline cars do by built-in extra tax into gasoline price. What will happen then? Bigger taxes on electricity, which brings down efficiency?...

[TomKat]

I am grateful to all of you who clarified, corrected and added valuable info to my original post. In spite of inaccuracies I believe the post was useful; at list it facilitated positive conversation. I posted it as I received it, without any scientific claims or references. The intention was to warn us about possible scam, ripoff etc.

There are so many areas where governments neglect or purposely ignore real research and blindly follow someones agendas - as well as their own agendas, (for example 5G, vaccines, causing harm with electromagnetic radiation, etc), so one could safely assume that also in this area we are far from transparency.

Apparently, if you drive 1,000 miles a week, it costs about $44 a month to charge a Chevy Volt:

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-chevy-volt

[onevoice]

I am grateful to all of you who clarified, corrected and added valuable info to my original post. In spite of inaccuracies I believe the post was useful; at list it facilitated positive conversation. I posted it as I received it, without any scientific claims or references. The intention was to warn us about possible scam, ripoff etc.

There are so many areas where governments neglect or purposely ignore real research and blindly follow someones agendas - as well as their own agendas, (for example 5G, vaccines, causing harm with electromagnetic radiation, etc), so one could safely assume that also in this area we are far from transparency.

Apparently, if you drive 1,000 miles a week, it costs about $44 a month to charge a Chevy Volt:

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-chevy-volt

Tomkat, the article gave an example of driving 1,000 miles per month (not 1,000 miles a week), which according to the article came out to $44 per month. This is the example the article used to calculate the energy cost for 1,000 miles of driving in a month:

Example 2 – Electricity: You drive 1,000 miles per month, your car (The Chevy Volt) gets 2.7 miles per kilowatt hour used (EPA estimated average), and you pay $0.12 per kilowatt-hour (national average) That means:
1000 miles / 2.7 miles per kilowatt-hour = 370 Kilowatt-Hours
And
370 Kilowatt-Hours * $0.12 Per Kilowatt Hour = $44.44 in Electricity per month.
I don't know where he got the 2.7 miles per kilowatt-hour rate, but is not accurate for 2017 Chevrolet Volt. According to the official government fuel economy site (https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37309&#tab1), it is 31 kilowatt hours per 100 miles (106 MPGe [miles per gallon equivalent]). 31 Kwh / 100 miles = 0.31 Kwh per mile. 0.31 Kwh per mile/ 1 = 3.2258 miles per kilowatt hours, not 2.7 miles per kilowatt-hour.

Also the author of the article you quoted used $0.12 cost per kilowatt-hour. So actual electric cost will vary depending on the electric rate charged at a given location. My utility charges $0.07 per kilowatt-hour, so I still stand by my calculations (Monthly cost of 1000 miles on electricity = $21.70) I posted (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?106383-Electric-Cars...&p=1281888&viewfull=1#post1281888) previously. At any rate, even the author you quoted showed that driving 1,000 miles on gasoline will be several times the cost of driving using electricity.

[Alan]

The US mainly gets it's power (https://www.uschamber.com/series/above-the-fold/these-10-power-plants-produce-the-most-electricity-america) from Nuclear (and has for a while) and a lot of it from Hydro electric... so extremely "green" (bull**** term IMO) power for the most part.


According to this source coal and natural gas account for higher percentages of electricity generation in the USA, versus nuclear and hydro:

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.php?page=electricity_in_the_united_states

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/electricity-generation-by-major-energy-source.png

[Builder]

The main argument against electric cars: if everybody switched tomorrow, it wouldn't work!

Duh, of course not. The same was true back when horse and buggies were replaced by cars. It happened over decades, not from one day to the other. But I am pretty sure there were enough people complaining about that inferior car technology, because if everyone switched things would break down.

The turnover time of the global car fleet is 20 years, so even if every single car sold today was electric, it would take 2 decades to completely switch. Currently we are at 2% of car sales being electric. Let that sink in and think how slowly it's coming and how much time we have to prepare - in the best case with renewable energy sources.

Also think how much better those cars will be 20 years from now. The internal combustion engine had more than 100 years to get perfected, electric car technology ist just at the beginning.

From an engineering perspective: the electric car is so simple, robust and cheap (once optimized and mass produced) that the hyper complex modern combustion engine doesn't stand a chance, except for special applications where there is no alternative to the high energy density of liquid fuels (aviation, military).

You may want to continue drowning the world in oil spills and oil wars because it's just so practical - nothing has to be changed for that. But in the long run there is no way around renewable energy. Either that or extinction.

[ExomatrixTV]

Electric Cars ...

3391832617745235


source (https://www.facebook.com/Togetherwebond/videos/3391832617745235/)

[ExomatrixTV]

1116146269727639


source (https://www.facebook.com/100079914591450/videos/1116146269727639)

[Denise/Dizi]

I heard once that they had to close down a major freeway in Los Angeles because one of these vehicles caught fire... It also doesn't take into account the toxic effects it has on the environment... The lithium mining is really sad... Really someone who has some time, should show what is happening in these mines...

I am sure there is a better way to get cheap and effecient, and clean energy for the world, but this isn't it... It is just another way to damage the world and give us the illusion we are helping our own cause, while someone else makes a killing in profits...

What ever happened to hydrogen vehicles, or free energy?

[Bill Ryan]

An excoriating article from Epoch Times, reposted on Zero Hedge. I'll copy the whole thing, as (if I dare say!) it's rather fun to read. :) It's about electric cars in general, not only about Hertz's terrible market decision.


https://zerohedge.com/political/hertz-meltdown-reveals-scale-ev-debacle

The Hertz Meltdown Reveals Scale of the EV Debacle

The Biden administration’s Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has revealed its ambition: to phase out gas-powered cars in favor of electric vehicles (EVs). Incredibly, this announcement comes as we are flooded with overwhelming evidence that EVs are a market loser.

Indeed, the artificial boom and then meltdown of the EV market is a modern industrial calamity. It was created by government, social media, wild disease frenzy, far-flung thinking, and the irrational chasing of utopia, followed by a rude awakening by facts and reality.

CEO of Hertz Stephen Scherr has been booted out due to a vast purchase of an EV fleet that consumers didn’t even want to rent. The company has now been forced to sell them at a deep discount and in a market where consumers are not particularly interested.

Looking back, however, Scherr’s decision to bet everything on an EV boom was a disaster that was highly praised at the time. Only last year, the company bragged: “This morning, [Hertz] was recognized by The White House for our efforts to expand access to electric vehicles across the country. Demand for EV rentals is growing and we’re here to help our customers electrify their travels.”

Pleasing the Biden administration is not the same as pleasing consumers. The demand turned south fast in a real-world test of drivers. But that’s not all. Hertz could not make their investment pay no matter what they did.

The key issues with EVs are as follows.


The cost upfront is much higher.
Financing charges are higher.
They depreciate at a higher rate than internal combustion cars.
The insurance is more expensive, by at least 25 percent.
Repairs are much more expensive, if you can get them done at all, and take longer.
Tires are more expensive and don’t last as long because the car is so heavy.
Refueling is not easy and missteps here can have nightmarish consequences.
They are more likely to catch fire.

Any motor vehicle accident that impacts the battery can lead to repairs higher than the value of the car, that is totaled with so much as a scratch.

To top it all over, there is no longer any financial advantage to the driver. It now costs slightly more to charge under many conditions than to refuel with gasoline.

The novelty of driving one for a day wears off after the first day. At first they seem like the greatest thing that ever happened, like an iPhone with wheels. That’s great but then the problems crop up and people start to realize that they are fine for urban commutes with home chargers and not much else.

They make truly terrible rentals. Obviously, under rental conditions, people have to use charging stations rather than a charger in the garage. That means spending part of your vacation figuring out where to find one.

Not all are superchargers, and if it is a regular charger, you are looking at an overnight wait. If you do find a station with fast chargers, you might have to wait in line. They might not work. You waste hours doing this. And you likely have to reroute your trip even to find a station without any certainty that you will get a spot with a functioning charger.

No one wants to do this. When you rent a car, all you want is a car that goes the distance. And typically car rentals are for going some distance else you would just take a taxi or a Lyft from the airport. You might need to drive several hours. And god forbid that this takes place in cold weather because that can reduce your mileage by half. Your whole trip will be ruined.

Why in the world would anyone want to rent one of these things rather than a gas-powered car? You might be better off with a horse and carriage.

Did Hertz think of any of this before they spent $250M on a fleet? Nope. They were just doing the fashionable thing.

Again, I’m not knocking some uses for EVs. If you think of them as enclosed and souped up golf carts, you get the idea. They can be wonderful for certain urban environments so long as you don’t overuse them and have to get them repaired. You also have to be in a financial position to afford the higher costs all around, from financing to insurance to repairs and tires. And you have to be prepared to take a big loss on resale, if you can even manage to find a buyer.

There is money to be made in this market, as there is with any niche good or service. But that is covered with normal market conditions, not massive subsidies, mandates, and frenzies. The Hertz case proves it. It is a perfect clinical trial of these machines. We now know the answer. They cannot work.

And thank goodness because if the United States truly switched over in a big way from gas to electric, we would face other disasters. The wear and tear on roads is much worse due to the sheer weight of the cars, which is 25 percent higher than gas cars on average. Many parking garages would have to be rebuilt with new reinforcements.

Then there is the strain on the grid. There is no way the industry could handle the demand. Brownouts and travel restrictions would be essential. All this would pave the way toward 15-minute cities.

Please remember how this craze began. It was lockdown time and automakers suspended orders for parts and chips. They stopped cranking out cars. When demand intensified, the chip makers had moved on to other things, so delays escalated. By the summer of 2021, there was a general panic about a growing car shortage.

At that point, consumers were willing to buy anything on the lot, among which EVs. The sales records were completely misinterpreted. The manufacturers made huge investments, and the car rental companies did too. But the product had not really been tested. That test is taking place now, and the EVs are completely failing.

We keep hearing that this is still too early, that development has a long way to go, that more charging stations are coming, that manufacturers are going to overcome all these problems in time. All of this sounds very similar to what the producers of mRNA shots say: this was just a trial run and they will get better the next time.

Maybe but doubtful. There is a huge problem in the investment market right now. EVs are massive losers. Consumers, manufacturers, car rental companies, and every other market in which these lemons are made available are running away from them as fast as possible. They had their day in the sun and got fried.

There is another problem: surveillance. The car can be tracked anywhere and shut off at a moment’s notice. This is obviously a great thing if the government desires a social-credit system of citizens control.

At this point, it is doubtful that the industry can recover. And yet, even now, the Biden administration is planning more subsidies, more mandates, more restrictions on gas cars, and digging themselves even deeper into this hole.

“The Biden administration on Wednesday issued one of the most significant climate regulations in the nation’s history, a rule designed to ensure that the majority of new passenger cars and light trucks sold in the United States are all-electric or hybrids by 2032,” reports (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/climate/biden-phase-out-gas-cars.html) the New York Times.

You simply cannot make up nuttier stuff. At some point, we could see manufacturers making the cars just to satisfy the central planners but otherwise preparing to chop them up and throw them out. They would likely be happy to dump them in the ocean but that isn’t allowed either.

[Bruce G Charlton]

The reason that such things happen, I believe, is because (under modern - management led - bureaucratic systems) the managers who "implemented" these changes that damaged Hertz have no interest in the long-term (or even medium term) thriving of the company they work for.

Those responsible will very likely have already moved on to other corporations - as experienced in managing sustainability, indeed almost certainly promoted for their successful role in transforming Hertz towards UN environmental goals etc.

I have seen closely analogous situations in medicine, science and academia. Individuals make big changes that save money or make revenue or attract favourable publicity in the short term; then they move up the ladder and away from the problems that emerge a few years later.

In one instance, such an individual went to the very top of the medical profession advancing every couple of years, big money, high status, knighthood etc - leaving behind a trail of consistent damage and chaos, everywhere he had worked and led. The same kind of thing happens all the way down.

[thepainterdoug]

John

great video. These types of people that are part of panels are such a joke. All dead, all already having a firm stance and position . None of them ever animated, responsive, have any interest or expression of surprise, of learning anything. None ever interacting . They are under orders as to how to be. they remind me of the obstacles on the beaches of normandy trying to hold back the forces.

[Johnnycomelately]

An excoriating article from Epoch Times, reposted on Zero Hedge. I'll copy the whole thing, as (if I dare say!) it's rather fun to read. :) It's about electric cars in general, not only about Hertz's terrible market decision.
.
.
.

You simply cannot make up nuttier stuff. At some point, we could see manufacturers making the cars just to satisfy the central planners but otherwise preparing to chop them up and throw them out. They would likely be happy to dump them in the ocean but that isn’t allowed either.

According to reports by C-Milk and Serpentza (American Matt and South African Winston, both of whom lived a decade in China and exited with Chinese wives) on their ‘tube chan The China Show (formerly ADVChina), there are huge parking fields in China filled with brand new EVs, registered (licence plates) but never sold. Another show was about electric bicycles, same scam deal where the companies get paid up front, showed drone vid of hills of tossed product (not sure if new or rental failure or what), some piles 20 ft /6+ m high.

Related, my city Edmonton Canada is suing the manufacturer of their failed trial fleet of EV transit buses. 60+ $m.

[happyuk]

The stream of updates from the business world are useful indicators of which way the winds are blowing.

It seems Berkshire Hathaway have seen the writing on the wall for some time, having sold 60% of their BYD stock, the Chinese electric battery company, with Charlie Munger once referring to BYD as one of his "best ever investments" and Warren Buffet once stating his favorite holding period as "forever."

They cite not wishing to compete with Elon Musk's Tesla company as a primary reason, which I don't believe for one second. I think it's because not being engineers, they didn't fully appreciate the problems with the batteries (fire protection, hugely expensive to replace/repair), and a whole swathe of other real-world issues as very ably described in the above Zero Hedge article.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/byd-stock-sales-warren-buffett-berkshire-hathaway-china-ev-munger-2023-11

[Operator]

I live close to a electricity distribution company. They had a solar powered EV charging station on their parking lot.
But they now changed it to charging EV's from the grid. The parking spaces meant for charging EV's are usually empty.

[Ewan]

https://www.treehugger.com/thmb/IfEtrMb6B-WHbF5CS04KZg25ANg=/750x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/Electrobat_Taxis_on_Manhattan_39th_Street_in_1898-1e95e7eed4704db198d2e89cf10b515b.jpg



When you hear the phrase “first electric cars,” you might think of a Tesla or a Nissan Leaf. But the first electric cars in the United States were built before 1900, lived on for another three decades, then ceased production in the 1920s. For electric vehicles to succeed today, it's important to consider why they caught on more than a century ago, and why they disappeared.
Early History

While battery-powered carriages were invented in 1830s, it took decades for a rechargeable electric battery to be mounted on a horseless carriage.1 In the early 1890s, the technology had reached a level of sophistication that individual inventors were building electric vehicles that were safer and cleaner than coal- or oil-fired steam-engine vehicles (which tended to explode), required less space on the roads than horse-drawn carriages, and left behind no manure.

America's first gasoline car, the Duryea Machine, was introduced at nearly the same time (1893), but electric vehicles were often judged to be a superior technology. Electric vehicles turned on instantly; gasoline cars required cranking. Electrics were easy to operate, with no need to shift gears; gasoline cars rumbled, stalled, backfired, and broke down more easily.

In an 1895 “motocycle” race, the Electrobat was awarded a gold medal for its “safety, ease of control, absence of noise, vibration, heat, and odor, cleanliness and general excellence of designs and workmanship”—even though a Duryea Machine won the race.

Electric vehicles were the first cars to give people a sense of personal autonomy, especially women, who could own and drive a car decades before they could vote.

Electric vehicles were “a symbol and vehicle of female emancipation,” the original freedom machines, and car manufacturers promoted vehicles like the Detroit Electric (pictured at the top of the page) “to the well-bred woman” as a car where “she can preserve her toilet immaculate, her coiffure intact.” Coiffure intact or not, suffragists drove electric vehicles to their rallies.

As the EV market grew, manufacturing companies took the place of individual inventors. Among the first were the Riker Electric Motor Company, formed in 1889, and the Electric Carriage & Wagon Company, which introduced a series of electric taxis in New York City in 1896.

By the end of the century, dozens of well-funded companies had been founded. Electric vehicles could even be purchased from Montgomery Ward catalogs. Companies were producing delivery wagons, taxis, phaetons, broughams, stanhopes, one-, two-, and four-seaters with ranges from 35 to 88 miles and speeds of up to 15 miles per hour.4 (The world record for any vehicle in 1898 was 39 mph.)5
Why Electric Vehicles Disappeared

By 1900, the electric vehicle industry was consolidating and growing as it improved the efficiency, power, and range of its vehicles. For some 20 years, the triumph of the gasoline car was by no means inevitable.

Still, challenges lay ahead, similar to those that have slowed the adoption of electric vehicles in the United States today. Here are some of the major roadblocks.

An Inadequate Charging Network

Electric vehicles were limited to places that had electricity: cities. Thomas Edison opened the first electric power plant in 1880's, but by 1932, only 10% of rural America was electrified—rural electrification efforts would not come until later in the 1930s.6 Electrification was a patchwork of competing systems, voltages, and frequencies, with direct current (DC) in cities and alternating current (AC) in the countryside (where it existed). It was developed by private companies, with little federal planning or oversight until the New Deal.

Advertising helped create a culture of gasoline cars. Car manufacturers “devised a kind of 'separate spheres' ideology about automobiles: gas cars were for men, electric cars were for women.”

Women were able to cross gender boundaries and adopt “men's cars,” like racer Dorothy Levitt, who drove a gas-powered De Dion at speeds up to 91 mph.9 But for men, driving an electric vehicle was a sign of weakness. The Argo company might have advertised its 1912 electric vehicle as “a woman's car that any man is proud to drive,” but most men did not want to drive “a woman's car," and the slow-to-die association of electric vehicles with weakness set in.

Henry Ford's Model T of 1908 may have cost a third less than an electric car, but people still needed to easily fuel it.1 John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company gave gas cars a “practically unlimited area of operation, as the gasoline with which it is operated may be bought at any country drug store,” as the New York Times opined in 1900.11

Once the gas car became more affordable, the electric vehicle was doomed. The nail in the coffin came when gasoline cars adopted the electric ignition in 1912, which made starting the vehicle easy.12 By the late-1920s, electric vehicle manufacturing was a dead industry.

https://www.treehugger.com/history-of-the-electric-car-trials-and-triumphs-5193009


1800: Italian physicist Alessandro Volta develops the voltaic pile, which is able to store electricity chemically. We now call the voltaic pile a battery.

1821: English chemist Michael Faraday invents an electric motor driven by a voltaic pile.

1832-39: Scotsman Robert Anderson develops a battery-powered horseless carriage with a non-rechargeable battery.

1835: Dutch chemist Sibrandus Stratingh develops an “electromagnetic carriage,” one of which is on display in Groningen, the Netherlands—the oldest electric vehicle still in existence.

1839: Scottish chemist man Robert Davidson creates an electric locomotive that could travel 4 mph, far slower than steam locomotives of the day.

1859: The lead-acid battery is invented by French physicist Gaston Planté

1881: French inventor Gustave Trouve exhibits a three-wheeled vehicle with a rechargeable battery at the International Exhibition of Electricity in Paris.

1882: English professor William Ayrton and Irish professor John Perry invent a three-wheeled electric vehicle that could travel up to 25 miles at 9 mph. In the same year, English financier Paul Bedford Elwell and engineer Thomas Parker begin manufacturing rechargeable batteries.

1887: Irishman John Boyd Dunlop's pneumatic tires make EVs more comfortable to ride.

1890: William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa, introduced a six-passenger electric wagon, capable of achieving a maximum speed of 14 mph, compared to 5 mph speeds by the standard stagecoach.

1897: The Morris and Salom Electric Carriage and Wagon Company runs a small fleet of electric cabs in New York City, driven by “lightning cabbies.” Electric cab companies also take off in Paris and London.

1898: Gaston de Chasseloup-Laubat sets the first electric vehicle record for fastest land vehicle in the world at 39.24 mph.

1899: The Baker Motor Vehicle Company is founded. Thomas Edison was an early customer.


In the early 20th century, it seemed that electric vehicles would dominate the market, as demand for them continued to rise. However, the mass-produced Model T undercut the price of EVs by more than half.

The energy density of gasoline was far greater than that of a chemical battery. Once gasoline became cheap and roads began to be paved, the internal combustion engine took over the roads.

By 1920, there were hardly any horses pulling carriages on roadways, and by 1935, there were no more electric vehicles either.

1900: Ferdinand Porsche introduces the Lohner-Porsche Mixte, the world's first petrol-electric hybrid vehicle, followed soon by imitators. At this point, a third of all vehicles on American roads were electric.1

1901: British Queen Alexandra purchases a Columbia Electric car for driving around the grounds of Sandringham House.

1902: The Studebaker Brothers Manufacturing Company launches a range of electric cars and trucks. Thomas Edison is his second customer.

1903: Thomas Edison creates a nickel-iron battery for his electric vehicles, which could be charged twice as fast as the lead-acid battery.

1906: The Belgian Auto-Mixte hybrid vehicle introduces regenerative braking.

1908: Henry Ford introduces the Model T. 15,000 orders are placed within the first year.

1912: Charles Kettering invents the electric starter, making gasoline-powered cars easier to start.

1913: Studebaker announces the end of its electric vehicle production.

1914: The Detroit Electric car is introduced, using Thomas Edison's nickel-iron battery, with a claimed range of 80 miles. The vehicle so impresses Henry Ford that he buys one for Thomas Edison and considers developing his own low-cost electric vehicles.

1920s: Gasoline prices plummet with the discovery of oil in Texas oil. Gasoline stations appear alongside a paved road system, and the development of electric or hybrid vehicles essentially stops.

https://www.treehugger.com/thmb/l33Id5WDxyOCuiVxuFVBn6U4OTA=/750x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/GettyImages-464493313-dea34df7ce7647b08bf885e2b42317bf.jpg

The 1901 Columbia Electric car

[Bill Ryan]

Bumping this thread by copying a very interesting post by Ravenlocke on the Breaking News thread.
(https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?113363-BREAKING-NEWS-Continuously-Updated&p=1647111&viewfull=1#post1647111)
~~~
https://x.com/ElectrekCo/status/1868742551479455836

1868742551479455836

https://electrek.co/2024/12/16/tesla-major-issue-self-driving-computer-inside-new-cars/

Tesla is having major issue with its self-driving computer inside new cars

Brand-new Tesla vehicles are experiencing self-driving computer failures, which are resulting in significant problems. Inside sources say that the problem is contributing to overwhelming Tesla’s service.

Over the last few weeks, Electrek has received several reports from new Tesla buyers claiming computer failures on brand-new cars.

We have been investigating the problem, and based on insider sources and documents that we obtained, we can now explain the issue in more detail.

The problem is linked to a new version of Tesla’s HW4 (sometimes called AI4) onboard self-driving computer. Internally, some refer to the new version as AI4.1. The computers are short-circuiting. The cause is still being investigated, but one source told Electrek that one of the possible causes is the low-voltage battery short-circuiting the computer during the camera calibration process.

Tesla drivers are reporting computer failures after driving off with their brand-new cars over just the first few tens to hundreds of miles. Wide-ranging features powered by the computer, like active safety features, cameras, and even GPS, navigation, and range estimations, fail to work.

Insider sources told Electrek that the problem is quite wide-ranging. It affects vehicles built over the last few months with the new computer.

Two sources said that Tesla is currently receiving a high number of complaints about this issue, and it has yet to release a service bulletin about it. One source said that Tesla service is being told to play down any safety concerns related to this problem to avoid people believing their brand-new cars are not drivable.

The issue arose at the end of the year when Tesla is trying to deliver a record number of vehicles to avoid its whole year down in deliveries – a first in a decade.

It’s unclear if Tesla reported the issue to NHTSA despite the fact that the broken rear-view camera goes against federal safety regulations, which should force a recall.

At the moment, the main remedy being discussed is a computer replacement, but Tesla is also looking to push a software patch to help temporarily.

Tesla service is currently being overwhelmed by the issue, and Tesla is pushing service appointments to next year.

Electrek’s Take

I am not hating here. This is a significant issue that customers should be aware of. It is significant enough that several inside sources decided to reach out about it, and many customers are complaining about the issue.

It is worrying that Tesla has not issued a service bulletin about it, and Tesla service is told to downplay the problem at the end of the quarter.

I would expect NHTSA to issue a recall here, and Tesla could be in trouble for downplaying an issue that has been going on for weeks, but I don’t think that’s going to happen considering what the Trump transition team, in which Tesla CEO Elon Musk is greatly involved, is signaling to the federal agency.

We are in for an interesting few years regarding auto safety in the US.