Qanon and the mechanism of addiction

[Bill Ryan]

Hello, Everyone: a couple of points here to start.

1. This post (and the discussion which may ensue) is in a standalone new thread. That's because it doesn't belong among analysis of the Q material, or analysis of who might be behind Q and why.

2. It's about what happens with people who get hooked. Whether Q is Trump's personal aide, a CIA spook, a bunch of Russians, or a kid in his bedroom. It makes no difference.

So if you're a Q follower reading this, this post is about you. I mean, really you.

It started when I searched on the net half an hour ago for Qanon+ addiction+ dopamine. I was sure there'd be a ton of articles. But I found none.

So here's what seems evident to me is happening — again, regardless of who Q is, or whether any of the information is in any way valid.

The issue is the decoding of the Q drops — or images that are associated. What's as plain as day is that nothing is spelled out clearly. Everyone will agree on that.

So that leaves everyone playing a let's-solve-the-puzzle game. And we're not even going to ask WHY someone intending to release valuable information to a hungry audience might make it so cryptic that even the diehard Q followers often can't agree exactly what something means.

(What I will say, though, is something that everyone will ALSO agree on: that the originator of the material wants it to be obscure, and wants people to play a guessing game.)

So here's where addiction comes in.

It's well-accepted now that people get hooked on things like receiving e-mails or other messages, thanks and likes to comments, and so on. It's the dopamine hit thing. This has been extensively discussed, and by healthcare professionals too. It's why people sleep with their smartphones.

The addiction comes from the uncertainty. If you KNEW that you'd receive an e-mail, or a message, or a thanks, or a like, regularly on the hour every 2 hours, as if it were mechanical, and never at any other time, there'd be a far smaller addiction problem. You'd just check the time, having maybe set an alarm, and then take a look.

It'd not be a random thing that gets you excited and hoping.

That's because the addiction comes from not knowing whether you're going to 'win' or not. Sometimes you get the reward. Sometimes you don't.

It's the same with gambling. Gambling's addictive only because one sometimes wins.

With Qanon, it's similar. If the Q drops were spelled out clearly (as has been the case with every other 'whistleblower' in history apart from Nostradamus!), and the images actually meant something obvious and incontrovertible, then there'd be no dopamine hits, no excitement, no addiction, no hanging in there day and night wondering whether your guess would later prove to be right or not.

Folks, if you're stuck on Qanon every day, you're addicted. You really are.

If you're telling yourself you're not, and that I'm talking offensive nonsense (and some surely will) — then give Qanon a break for a week or two and see what it feels like. Keep a journal and report back to us here. You might help a lot of people.

I intend no disrespect, and I'm serious.

And the conflict that often arises between passionate Q followers and those who aren't interested and don't care is VERY similar to the conflict between an addict and their friends and family.

Those who aren't addicted despair, and can't understand, and get angry at their friend or loved one. To them, it's utterly clear what's happening.

And the person who is addicted defends themselves, and gets angry back, and justifies everything, and feels persecuted and maybe also discriminated against in some way.

And they hang out with their fellow-addict friends, who will agree with everything they're telling themselves. That just reinforces whatever habit it is.

Look at the patterns. Look at the similarities. If you can, step back from whatever your personal position is on all this, and see it all from a distance. There's a chance the whole thing may all come into view.

[Frank V]

An excellent and insightful post, Bill ─ thank you. :clapping:

Yes, the mysterious, cryptic nature of QAnon is definitely part of its attraction to some, and especially so because the messages are being posted out in the open on a public message board, which causes the followers of those QAnon messages to become intellectually and emotionally drawn into the mystery, as if they themselves are the intended recipients of secret messages from what appears to be a real-life "James Bond"-style secret agent.

This sense of involvement lifts the reader out of and above the mundaneness of their own daily life, and as such, taps into the reader's ego and desire to commit themselves to "the cause".

In addition to the above, this alleged "secret operation" also taps into the thesis-and-antithesis duality, sparking the tribal warrior aspect of the human psyche ─ "us versus them" ─ as opposed to stimulating the psyche into seeking the synthesis instead.

All of the above are indeed addictive to certain people, and most notably to people with a predisposition for political involvement and/or wild conspiracy theories. The rest of the energy comes from what appears to be a cosmic climate of strong polarization that's currently playing out here on Earth and that magnifies the effects of everything, on every side ─ a kind of quickening, if you will. :nod:

[edina]

While the Original Post presents this information relating to only Q, as if only people who read Q are addicts. This issue of social media, marketing and tech companies using our dopamine-pathway for their benefit is huge and much bigger than Q.

This is a problem across all forms of media. And it's used to manipulate media across all platforms.


Social Media Addiction – The Facts and Solutions (https://addictionresource.com/addiction/technology-addiction/social-media-addiction/)

What is Social Media Addiction?

A 2014 study shows that excessive use of technology (https://addictionresource.com/addiction/technology-addiction/) by teenagers has caused disruptions in their physical and mental health, sleeping patterns, their weight and levels of exercise and notably in their school work8.

40% of young adults and 21% of adults, admit to using social media even while in the bathroom. Why is it that we can’t seem to stay away from social media, even for a few minutes?

Well, research shows us that social media is addictive. Studies show that all the retweets and Facebook likes have affected our brain’s reward area. Social media interaction is like syringing dopamine straight into the system.

Forums are also social media. And people can become addicted to visiting their favorite forum.


Social Media Addiction

Social Media became part of our lives in the new millennium. As of August 2017, approximately 2 billion people are using Facebook around the world. Other popular platforms are Youtube, WhatsApp, Instagram, Linkedin, Google+ and Twitter with millions of active users.1
Social media creates a network of people around the world. Therefore, they are able to share information, career interests and other forms of interaction via virtual communities.1
How has Social Media Impacted our World?

There is still an ongoing discussion between experts about the benefits and disadvantages of social media. We already have examples that show social media’s power such as:

the Arab Spring in the 2010s changing the governments of many countries.
South Korean musician Psy setting a record in 2012 for the most watched video with “Gangnam Style” (surpassed only five years later by “See You Again”).
Barack Obama’s very successful presidential “social media campaign” back in 20082.
Anthony Weiner’s use of the social media platform Twitter to send inappropriate messages, leading to his resignation from U.S. Congress3.

Do we maybe spend too much time on social media?
What is Social Media Addiction?

A 2014 study shows that excessive use of technology by teenagers has caused disruptions in their physical and mental health, sleeping patterns, their weight and levels of exercise and notably in their school work8.

40% of young adults and 21% of adults, admit to using social media even while in the bathroom. Why is it that we can’t seem to stay away from social media, even for a few minutes?

Well, research shows us that social media is addictive. Studies show that all the retweets and Facebook likes have affected our brain’s reward area. Social media interaction is like syringing dopamine straight into the system.
The Mechanism of Addiction

Our reward area located in the mesencephalon (midbrain), and its pathways, affect our decisions and sensations. When we experience something rewarding (or use an addictive substance) neurons in the principal dopamine-producing areas in the brain (the VTA) are activated, causing dopamine levels to rise. Therefore, the brain receives a “reward” and associates the drug or activity with positive reinforcement. For this reason, activities which increase dopamine levels are the basis to the mechanism of addiction5.

From marketing to Facebook, to your smart phone setting up notifications, most, if not all technology uses this Dopamine mechansism to keep our attention engaged.

There are lots of ways that people can become aware of and address the ongoing issue of Tech and marketing companies targeting our dopamine pathways to keep us "hooked".

I don't have any notifications on my phone.
I have it on airplane mode most of the day.
I used the subscription system here at Avalon to ensure I can keep my focus where I want it.
I try to have my computer turned off at least 2 hours before bed, because of the negative affect that "blue light" has on hormone cycles.

To learn more:


Marketing's Ethical Line Between Social Media Habit and Addiction (https://www.ama.org/marketing-news/marketings-ethical-line-between-social-media-habit-and-addiction/)
Where is the ethical line in marketing between hooking a customer and getting them hooked?

Media is an open door to the public mind, Edward Bernays wrote in his landmark 1947 essay “The Engineering of Consent.” (https://web.archive.org/web/20120813014102/http://gromitinc.com/lego/Library/Engineering_of_consent.pdf)

“Any one of us through these media may influence the attitudes and actions of our fellow citizens,” he wrote. “The United States has become a small room in which a single whisper is magnified thousands of times.”


The Psychology of Social Media: Why We Like, Comment, and Share Online (https://buffer.com/resources/psychology-of-social-media)

Why We're All Addicted to Texts, Twitter and Google (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-wise/201209/why-were-all-addicted-texts-twitter-and-google)

Automatic notifications are touted as wonderful features of hardware, software, and apps. But they are actually causing you to be like a rat in a cage. If you want to get work done you need to turn off as many auditory and visual cues as possible. It's the best way to prevent and break the dopamine loops.



Has dopamine got us hooked on tech? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/04/has-dopamine-got-us-hooked-on-tech-facebook-apps-addiction)
Silicon Valley is keen to exploit the brain chemical credited with keeping us tapping on apps and social media

This dopamine addiction is most prevalent in video games.
However, is can be used to positive affect, too.



Neuroscience Insights from Video Game & Drug Addiction (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/radical-teaching/201110/neuroscience-insights-video-game-drug-addiction)
The Video Game Model Sustains Perseverance and Desire for Increasing Challenge in All Learning

The motivating video games place players at their individualized achievable challenge levels. When children have opportunities to participate in learning challenges at their individualized achievable challenge level, their brains invest more effort to the task and are more responsive to feedback and they reach levels of engagement much like the focus and perseverance we see when they play their video games


Khan Academy (https://www.khanacademy.org/) uses this model and is very effective.

To address the concern about Q posts "cryptic" nature. It's used to get around the algorithms.

[Jad]

Very good point Bill. But I can say the same thing about soccer too. For example in my friends WhatsApp group almost 90 percent of the narrative is about soccer and what’s the latest speculation about transfers and predictions about wins and whatnot ( I am a Liverpool fan btw! I was in the stadium in Istanbul in 2005 :Party:). Almost any topic out there will have a religious following. Q happens to cater to the ones who wants to look behind the curtain which I would guess describes most of the folks here on Avalon.

[Jayke]

I agree with Edina and Jad in that the Q material is no more addictive than Project Avalon, or Joseph Farrells news and views from the Nefarium, or any other interesting source of information. Should we tell Joseph Farrell to stop reading his emails for a week because his addiction to knowledge is bad for his health? (I’ve been a member of his website for 3 years now and I’ve always been worried about his constant smoking and apparent lack of exercise regimen).

The only difference with the Q material is that it’s more interactive, more collaborative, it requires more of a team effort to figure things out and put the puzzle pieces together. Hence why I’ve said that it operates more like an outsourced intelligence network. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107825-The-censorship-discussion&p=1304642&highlight=Outsourced+intelligence#post1304642)

I know the people who try and disparage the Q movement haven’t read my psychological analyses of the Q phenomenon over this past year, or if they do read them, they haven’t discerned the cognitive principles discussed. Based on my past two decades of studying hypnosis, psychology, NLP, esoteric systems etc, I’ve got a pretty good understanding of how psychological operations work (every technique in hypnotherapy is a psychological operation). I posted here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100318-The-Qanon-posts-and-a-Very-Bad-Day-Scenario-for-some-elite-swamp-critters&p=1300821&viewfull=1#post1300821) that the Q movement seems to operate on principles of Systems Theory (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory) and OODA loops (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop) (tote loops (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOnJt7iNltI) in psychology). No one has ever challenged or tried to debate against my understanding of the movement.

I recently found some verication for my analysis by none other than our very own intelligence operative and Avalon member Robert David Steele, who literally wrote the book on outsourced intelligence.


https://phibetaiota.net/2018/03/robert-steele-core-works-for-those-new-to-my-work/


========




Robert Steele: Core Works UPDATED with 21st Century University
#OSE Open Source Everything, Collective Intelligence, Cultural Intelligence, Earth Intelligence, Peace Intelligence

Short URL: http://tinyurl.com/Steele-Core

2017 was one of my most productive years, and it has led to two complaints:

01 What do you stand for? You seem scattered.

02 You are writing and speaking so much, it is hard for me to drill down to the bare bones reading that I can afford to spend time on.

Fair enough. Below are the answers to both those questions.

01 I stand for, and will always stand for, the US Constitution, the Republic, and the reform of the electoral process, the intelligence process, the governance process (including especially the citizen educational process), and the national security process which I now define as including the nationalization of the Federal Reserve and the elimination of the Deep State.

https://i0.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Slide6.jpg?ssl=1

02 I am troubled by the inability of most people to read with discernment. I am however, sympathetic to the question. There are three points of entry for recognizing that I have been right all along, since 1988, and that now is the time to pay attention and dismiss those that have been so successful in marginalizing me because they know I can reduce their budgets by 70% — including the Department of Defense Budget — because my ideas can cut the federal government in half, eliminate the 50% waste in the Western economy, take down the Deep State, and create a prosperous world at peace, a world that works for everyone. That is why I was recommended for the Nobel Peace Prize, which I neither expect nor deserve, but I believe President Trump can win it twice if not three times: Koreas, Middle East, and implementing my ideas.

I am focused on three projects:

01 Creating a new truth channel that integrates text messages, emails, videos, posts, and shared files that displaced #GoogleGestapo and cannot be censored or manipulated and will not tolerate digital assassination of both progressive and conservative voices against the Deep State.

02 #UNRIG Election Reform, a project I founded with the early support of Cynthia McKinney, a gracious elegant national leader we need to see more of.

03 Educating the world — America first — on the depth and breadth of both pedophilia and murderous pedophilia including Satanic Ritual Abuse, in my capacity as Chief Counsel (pro bono) for the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into Human Trafficking and Child Sex Abuse.

Dummies Guide to Robert’s Vision for the Future of Intelligence/IT

https://i0.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/EIN-Method-Logo-FINAL1.png?ssl=1

https://i0.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Slide18.jpg?ssl=1

https://i1.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Slide17.jpg?ssl=1

https://i2.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Steele-Figure-4-Immaturity-of-Craft-of-Intelligence.jpg?ssl=1

https://i1.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/steele-old-versus-new-intelligence-process.jpg?ssl=1

https://i2.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Applied-Collective-Intelligence-Wheels.jpg?ssl=1

https://i2.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Steele-Figure-12-OSEE-Nine-Domains.jpg?ssl=1

https://i1.wp.com/phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/CATALYST-New-30-Jan-10-JPEG.jpg?ssl=1

==========

Maybe Bill or other mods could interview Robert David Steele and get his take on what the Q phenomenon is?

If Robert David Steele says it’s a LARP, hoax, or damaging addictive game, then he’s someone with enough insights that I’d take seriously. As far as I can tell though, the Q movement is perfectly aligned to Robert Steeles outsourced intelligence methodology. To the point that it could even be his creation. Heck, he evens mentions his work with Cynthia McKinney and it was Cynthia McKinney who told us Q was Steve Piezcenik on her twitter last year. I guess if Steele is the originator of outsourced intelligence, his relationship with McKinney would put her in a perfect position to know who was behind it.

[Hervé]

It seems to me the "Q" phenomenon compounds a number of other phenomena on top of - or in support of - or providing a fertile ground for - the addiction one.

One, is the matter of "Cognitive Dissonance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)" phenomenon as described by Leon Festinger in his "When Prophecy Fails (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Festinger#When_Prophecy_Fails)" and which applies to any thwarted hope and expectation.

Then, there is the psy-op mechanisms which are designed to trigger and engage deep unconscious "hooks" common to the collective "unconscious" of most humans of this planet as described by Jon Rappoport (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?81885-Psy-Ops-The-Orchestration-Of.&p=956960&viewfull=1#post956960)):

The disaster of manufactured consent in the Matrix (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?81885-Psy-Ops-The-Orchestration-Of.&p=956960&viewfull=1#post956960)
by Jon Rappoport March 15, 2013
www.nomorefakenews.com (http://www.nomorefakenews.com/) [now defunct]

[...]

In the Matrix, there is pressure to have people connect their realities to each other. Why? Because groups can thus be created. Groups are easier to compromise than individuals.

We get the concept of hooked ideas. A hooked idea is one which will entice people to merge their realities into One. The hooked idea can be expressed as a slogan, a so-called meme, a principle. It is introduced by people who work psyops.

A psyop is a campaign to herd people into a place where their individual realities overlap.

For the propagandist, there is the eternal search for the good, better, and best hooking idea, the one that will collect the greatest possible number of people under one roof.

This has nothing to do with true progress or honest intent. It has everything to do with control.

[...]

This same retired propaganda operative, who goes by the pseudonym of Ellis Medavoy (I interview him 28 times in one section of my collection, THE MATRIX REVEALED (http://marketplace.mybigcommerce.com/the-matrix-revealed-vol-1-cd-by-jon-rappoport-mega-info/)), explained this “psyop calculation”:


“The target of a terrific psyop is yearning and longing. That’s what I looked for when I was working: what people long and yearn for. Something unformed and undefined but very powerful. That’s what I wanted to tap into.

“If I could tap into that, people would buy in and surrender a significant part of whatever their personal world looks like. Because they want to believe they’re coming together with like-minded others. They’ll also believe the path laid out for them is correct and proper and wonderful. This is really a fake religion we’re talking about.

“A fake religion. It’s really for children, and most people turn out to be children. Give them a group of high-minded ideas, and they’ll grab on and think everything they’ve done up to that moment is a prelude to THIS.

“We [operatives] are playing a symphony, you see, and once they listen to the prelude, they’re hooked. They stay. They long for the climax, which doesn’t exist; not the way they imagine it. To them it’s all about ‘arrival in the promised land,’ as if that’s some kind of gift that’s wrapped up under the tree, waiting to be opened.

“We give them a fake god, a dead-end god. If they were once burning with authentic faith, we derail that and take them to another place…” [...]

This has less and less to do with personal reality.

Manufactured consent in the Matrix is a bit of a misnomer. Manufactured consent IS the Matrix, at the most profound level.

[...]

A great deal of history of the human race, littered as it is with suffering and pain and war and hunger, was produced by competing psyops.

Each side was utterly convinced that its ideals were superior. What neither side realized was that everybody, on all sides, was accepting a psyop substitute of their own personal reality. That was the big switch.

[...]

You could accurately write, on many gravestones: “I died for a psyop.”

[...]

Freedom? Democracy? The will of the people? A better future for all? Equality? Justice? These are merely concepts in search of ways to run psyops.

Jon Rappoport

[emphases mine]
--------------------------------------------------
Then, somewhere, I wrote this:

Quite a test... someone must have found a way of triggering a real deep, collective unconscious programming to get it so widespread...When put together with how psy-ops are manufactured (above) and one may realize there is no need to "infiltrate" because the recruiting happens right on the spot wherever one gets "hooked" via those deep, deep longings and yearnings finally running into some potentially, materially realizable manifestations.

The two most powerful unconscious emotional juggernauts one can tap into with hooks are fear and hope.... even more powerful when the two are combined: the fear of hell and the promise of paradise... the hope of no more wars but the constantly maintained fear of nuclear conflicts... and Q, either accidentally or intentionally is playing the combination of both: the hope of a better world via the eradication of fear (the deep state/enslavers).

So, no need to send infiltrators on missions as members of alt-media communities... the infiltration is already inherent within the human emotional make up and the emotional grand divide occurs within families, never mind communities or nations.
Then, there is the "Gaming" hook: The resolving of a mystery which, in older times, prevented readers to put down a book before reaching "The End." Conan Doyle and Agatha Christie made fortunes with those...

[Ratszinger]

Addiction is funny business and profitable especially with alcohol. I met all the criteria for alcoholic when I drank. I would buy and drink more beer than any four people I knew with exception of my two best friends that kept up with me beer to beer easily. We'd each buy a 30 pack of beer and go to the farm on a weekend and by Sun. we'd be out of beer and buy more on the drive home! Everyone thought we were alcoholics. Even tried an intervention on my one friend but we only heard about it. One night way back when, I think like 2002 but my wife says it was 2000 we really don't remember but one day I just decided to quit. And I did right there and then without rehab, without some 12 step program. I did it without a babysitter to make sure I behaved and I did it overnight. I never had cravings, never had anything but the hangover the morning I quit. They say now I can't have been an alcoholic or I'd know the very day I quit as well as the month and year and I know none of that! I think it Feb/Mar but not even sure on that. I quit. I haven't had anything other than an occasional joint or bowl of some fine smoke since. Greg my other friend eventually quit the same way. Sam? Still drinks some but no where like the old days.

I think some people struggle with quitting but for some reason I see it as a habit or routine and it's easy to make up new habits or routines just the way I did the one I was used to. I think a lot of money is behind addiction to promote it as real because it's profitable to keep people from knowing their own power and necessary to make them give it away by telling them over and over "You can't do it alone" blah blah blah! It's all nonsense Bill. My thoughts!? You think too much! I thought I was bad.

[Bill Ryan]

Mod note from Bill:

I moved three posts here to the main Q thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100318-The-Qanon-posts-and-associated-US-political-debate) (now renamed The Qanon posts, and associated US political debate). The posts were interesting, connected with discussing Trump, and there was nothing at all wrong with them. But here the new topic is not to discuss Trump pro or con, but to discuss addiction. THX.

:thumbsup:

:focus:

[Jayke]

It seems to me the "Q" phenomenon compounds a number of other phenomena on top of - or in support of - or providing a fertile ground for - the addiction one.

One, is the matter of "Cognitive Dissonance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)" phenomenon as described by Leon Festinger in his "When Prophecy Fails (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Festinger#When_Prophecy_Fails)" and which applies to any thwarted hope and expectation.

Then, there is the psy-op mechanisms which are designed to trigger and engage deep unconscious "hooks" common to the collective "unconscious" of most humans of this planet as described by Jon Rappoport (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?81885-Psy-Ops-The-Orchestration-Of.&p=956960&viewfull=1#post956960)):

The disaster of manufactured consent in the Matrix (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?81885-Psy-Ops-The-Orchestration-Of.&p=956960&viewfull=1#post956960)
by Jon Rappoport March 15, 2013
www.nomorefakenews.com (http://www.nomorefakenews.com/) [now defunct]

[...]

In the Matrix, there is pressure to have people connect their realities to each other. Why? Because groups can thus be created. Groups are easier to compromise than individuals.

We get the concept of hooked ideas. A hooked idea is one which will entice people to merge their realities into One. The hooked idea can be expressed as a slogan, a so-called meme, a principle. It is introduced by people who work psyops.

A psyop is a campaign to herd people into a place where their individual realities overlap.

For the propagandist, there is the eternal search for the good, better, and best hooking idea, the one that will collect the greatest possible number of people under one roof.

This has nothing to do with true progress or honest intent. It has everything to do with control.

[...]

This same retired propaganda operative, who goes by the pseudonym of Ellis Medavoy (I interview him 28 times in one section of my collection, THE MATRIX REVEALED (http://marketplace.mybigcommerce.com/the-matrix-revealed-vol-1-cd-by-jon-rappoport-mega-info/)), explained this “psyop calculation”:


“The target of a terrific psyop is yearning and longing. That’s what I looked for when I was working: what people long and yearn for. Something unformed and undefined but very powerful. That’s what I wanted to tap into.

“If I could tap into that, people would buy in and surrender a significant part of whatever their personal world looks like. Because they want to believe they’re coming together with like-minded others. They’ll also believe the path laid out for them is correct and proper and wonderful. This is really a fake religion we’re talking about.

“A fake religion. It’s really for children, and most people turn out to be children. Give them a group of high-minded ideas, and they’ll grab on and think everything they’ve done up to that moment is a prelude to THIS.

“We [operatives] are playing a symphony, you see, and once they listen to the prelude, they’re hooked. They stay. They long for the climax, which doesn’t exist; not the way they imagine it. To them it’s all about ‘arrival in the promised land,’ as if that’s some kind of gift that’s wrapped up under the tree, waiting to be opened.

“We give them a fake god, a dead-end god. If they were once burning with authentic faith, we derail that and take them to another place…” [...]

This has less and less to do with personal reality.

Manufactured consent in the Matrix is a bit of a misnomer. Manufactured consent IS the Matrix, at the most profound level.

[...]

A great deal of history of the human race, littered as it is with suffering and pain and war and hunger, was produced by competing psyops.

Each side was utterly convinced that its ideals were superior. What neither side realized was that everybody, on all sides, was accepting a psyop substitute of their own personal reality. That was the big switch.

[...]

You could accurately write, on many gravestones: “I died for a psyop.”

[...]

Freedom? Democracy? The will of the people? A better future for all? Equality? Justice? These are merely concepts in search of ways to run psyops.

Jon Rappoport

[emphases mine]
--------------------------------------------------
Then, somewhere, I wrote this:

Quite a test... someone must have found a way of triggering a real deep, collective unconscious programming to get it so widespread...When put together with how psy-ops are manufactured (above) and one may realize there is no need to "infiltrate" because the recruiting happens right on the spot wherever one gets "hooked" via those deep, deep longings and yearnings finally running into some potentially, materially realizable manifestations.

The two most powerful unconscious emotional juggernauts one can tap into with hooks are fear and hope.... even more powerful when the two are combined: the fear of hell and the promise of paradise... the hope of no more wars but the constantly maintained fear of nuclear conflicts... and Q, either accidentally or intentionally is playing the combination of both: the hope of a better world via the eradication of fear (the deep state/enslavers).

So, no need to send infiltrators on missions as members of alt-media communities... the infiltration is already inherent within the human emotional make up and the emotional grand divide occurs within families, never mind communities or nations.
Then, there is the "Gaming" hook: The resolving of a mystery which, in older times, prevented readers to put down a book before reaching "The End." Conan Doyle and Agatha Christie made fortunes with those...

True. But the same can be said for any movement, religion, cult or secret society. The thing that separates the Q movement from any other organisational structure is its open source nature. The hive mind of secret societies are conducted behind closed doors, strange initiations and 33 degrees or more of hoop jumping ceremonies before being allowed into the inner sanctum of private discussions that shape the hierarchical structure of the organisation.

The Q phenomenon is open to anyone with a willingness to problem solve, the research is open to anyone to review, the logical connections made free to anyone to address or dismiss as they see fit. Might seem like subtle differences to some, but discernible differences nonetheless.

I actually ignored the Q thread for the first few months it was out, it was too cryptic for me. I only became interested after seeing how it was galvanising and creating a new organisational structure out of the level 7 archetype (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107656-A-Place-for-Dialogue&p=1301192&viewfull=1#post1301192). This is something that’s never happened in history before, only made available due to the Internet. As a systems theorist, it’s fascinating to witness theories written down 30 years ago, begin to crystallise and take shape in society. I don’t see anything sinister or malevolent, to me it’s just an organic, inevitable development that occurs within character archetype interactions.

The ideology wars that go on during mutable stages between character types is no different than the chemical waves of Belousov–Zhabotinsky reactions, or BZ reactions discussed by Paul Laviollete.

jRQAndvF4sM
The science of addiction is really the science of bonding. (Any mods know how to embed a TED talk?)
https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong#t-870439

How do old bonds break down and new bonds become established within the context of systems theory:

I actually wrote about the polarisation issue, in relation to mutable aspects of a complex system back in February last year. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?101748-The-Polarisation-issue-where-is-it-going&p=1208430&viewfull=1#post1208430)


I think it’s a natural phenomena more so than deliberately created by the elite. They certainly help fan the flames to steer things towards their own agenda; but even amongst the elite, they’re having their own internal disputes and taking sides, going through their own balkanisations.

Systems theory explains the situation pretty well imo.

The 3 primary drivers in systems theory are ‘Pattern’, ‘Process’ and ‘Structure’. Think of it in terms of classical music. ‘Pattern’ is the full and complete piece of sheet music that’s laid out on the piano waiting to be played. Pressing and holding just 1 key in that piece of music would create a tone, that tone held in cymatics form would create a structure. As you progress through the sheet music, different cymatic structures are created as each new tone is played. How the sand on the cymatics plate shifts from one structure to the next, as each new tone is played, is called the process.

‘Process’ itself is made up of 3 parts—and if you’re familiar with astrology you’ll already know them—‘Cardinal’, ‘Fixed’ and ‘Mutable’.

When we’re in a cardinal phase, lots of energy is introduced, production increases, stuff gets built, new structures are created.
Fixed phases see greater stability and cooperation, the strengthening of bonds to solidify the structure.
When entering the mutable phase however, that’s where most of the emotional turmoil; fear, doubt, worry, anger etc all starts to spill out. Old structures start to collapse as the cardinal energies for new structures create disharmony with conflicting tones.

This is where we get the classic dichotomy between those who lean to the left versus those who lean to the right. The roots of the terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ started during the opening stages of the French Revolution and were tied in with the concept of historical progress. The “left” were progressive and revolutionary forces that sought to march forward, while the right-wing were the “reactionaries” and “conservatives” who sought to preserve or restore the existing power.

These two groups tend to squabble, especially during mutable phases, because people experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance as they get caught between their attachment of how things were, versus the confusion of what’s to come and how things will be.

In today’s western society you’ve got the conservative, protectionist elite, who want to keep people subjugated to prevent them losing their established order; and you’ve got a progressive, liberal left, who are completely confused and disorientated, and feel as though progress should be made, except they’re all infighting as to what ‘progress’ means and in which direction to march, there’s no cohesion. In mutable phases, it’s typical to see the infighting get worse, until society grinds to a halt or old social structures collapse as cohesion dissipates.

Meanwhile, countries like China and Russia are already a step ahead of the West in terms of pattern. Russia and China are in the cardinal phase of building a multipolar world. They’re building new structures that are making the existing unipolar order obsolete. The fact that the rest of the world is already moving on from the old unipolar structure (China’s petroyuan futures trading goes live on 26th March), is only heaping pressure on the Western world—who are still dazed, confused and attached to a structure that’s losing cohesion day after day.

The more people cling to their subjective worldview—of how the world “should be” in their idealistic notions of utopia—the more blind they’ll be to how the organisational structures of the world are genuinely unfolding; and the more irate, upset and emotional they’ll become as the world continues to unfold in a way that’s different to how they envisioned it to be.

My conclusion then, it’s an unfortunate (albeit necessary) part of the process for the upscaling of humanity. It’s classic psychology, as described and made popular by Piaget in his models of cognitive development and applied to epistemology and chaos theory. Tumultuous and frustrating times for sure, the ending of empires and creating of new ones, but onwards the pattern plays as humanity enters a new and different sonata.

[Jad]

I’m glad you’re a member here Jayke! You always bring interesting content to the discussion. :handshake:

[Pam]

One of the important aspects of true full blown addiction is compulsion. An addict will frequently find that they are not relaxed or enjoying themselves unless they are engaging in or preparing to engage in the addictive substance/process. There will be a back ground of anxiety until they can engage the addiction again. Things they used to love doing are no longer interesting. They may arrange their life and choose friendships that will allow them to engage in their addiction. Frequently associating with people that they would never have befriended before becoming addicted. Those people may be further down the addiction cycle, which allows the addict to deny the level of their behavior. Frequently there will be denial that a problem exists and an inability or refusal to evaluate the consequences of the addiction. In some addicts there is a strange alteration in thinking processes that allows the addict to repeatedly end up using or engaging in the addiction and not consciously know how it all started again. This happens when there was no conscious decision to engage in the addiction. An addict will frequently engage in the activity far longer then they intended. They might say they'll spend an hour engaging and find themselves still doing it hours or days later.

The description above is based on my personal experience with addiction as well as what many other former addicts have shared.

[petra]

So that leaves everyone playing a let's-solve-the-puzzle game. And we're not even going to ask WHY someone intending to release valuable information to a hungry audience might make it so cryptic that even the diehard Q followers often can't agree exactly what something means.

I found this part particularly amusing!

Judging from Bill's observations, this seems very similar to the Nostradamus "puzzle", in that it is cryptic, and people have been getting obsessed with it.

At one point in time I recall reading that someone finally decoded the Nostradamus prophecy (the article I can no longer find), and that the answer was/is a circle. I didn't understand, and maybe it wasn't true, but I laughed at the implication. I think if I spent years figuring out a puzzle, and it ended up taking me in a circle, I'd be pretty mad.

If I had to take a guess between Q-Anon being brilliant puzzle, or a joke - I'd guess the joke (sorry Q-Anon fans)

EDIT: I think the addiction will pass eventually too, and we need to consider WHY people are attracted to this. I feel that personally it's an attraction of deprivation, and once these people have "gotten their fill" they'll move on.

[AutumnW]

Brilliant Bill and all respondents. Very interesting! There is only one cure for games that combine personal puzzle solving skill with group interaction and team spirit with hope for the future. And that is to hit yourself in the head with a hammer while you are participating! The only thing that would make Qanon more appealing is if it was covered in chocolate or dipped in melted mozzarella cheese.

I criticize it like crazy, but I totally get how people have gotten so hooked. It's beyond addiction. It is supplying people with family, friends, community that they may lack too.

[Jad]

I criticize it like crazy, but I totally get how people have gotten so hooked. It's beyond addiction. It is supplying people with family, friends, community that they may lack too.

I like your gentle passive aggressive remarks. It’s very amusing.

[AutumnW]

Jad,

I try not to bore the sh** out of people when I post, if that's what you mean. If a long serious well articulated post is necessary to make a point, that's fine. But I have no desire to create a 'masterpiece' of convoluted verbiage, that nobody will read. You are mistaking my efforts for "passive aggression." There's no veiled aggression here. I am being quite direct.

[Forest Denizen]

I criticize it like crazy, but I totally get how people have gotten so hooked. It's beyond addiction. It is supplying people with family, friends, community that they may lack too.

I like your gentle passive aggressive remarks. It’s very amusing.

Hey Jad,

You're a good man and I very much enjoyed meeting you in Laughlin - though, unfortunately, I could only be there for the first day of the Gathering.

So I know you'll understand when I ask that we try to maintain some sense of camaraderie in exploring the topic of this thread. Let's take the high road. We have all followed a long and circuitous path and now we meet here on Avalon, a place of learning and growth and the exchange of ideas. Let's try to keep it positive. There's more than enough negativity circling about right now.

With Love,

Ken

[Forest Denizen]

Q ramps up compulsion by dropping bread crumbs that adherents feverishly try to piece together to construct a coherent meaningful whole. What they are really doing, speaking of bread, is seeing the face of Jesus in a piece of toast. Though, in this case there is just enough that is verifiably true in the 'drops' that it helps keep the disinfo game going.

Nobody here engages anybody in games that people have to puzzle over to extract meaning. Farrel doesn't do this. Avalon doesn't do this.

This is the salient feature that distinguishes Q from other disinformation campaigns, advertising campaigns, etc. It's really quite brilliant and I applaud those who started it. They understand human nature very well.

Autumn,

I left a post after Jad's response to you and then I saw that you had left another couple of responses to Jad. This isn't really very helpful dialogue here and I think I we might move your post to a more appropriate thread. This thread is meant to be a place for discussing the mechanisms of addiction relative to Qanon. Your post verges on simply bashing Qanon.

Again, let's try to be constructive here.

With Love,

Ken

[Jad]

I criticize it like crazy, but I totally get how people have gotten so hooked. It's beyond addiction. It is supplying people with family, friends, community that they may lack too.

I like your gentle passive aggressive remarks. It’s very amusing.

Hey Jad,

You're a good man and I very much enjoyed meeting you in Laughlin - though, unfortunately, I could only be there for the first day of the Gathering.

So I know you'll understand when I ask that we try to maintain some sense of camaraderie in exploring the topic of this thread. Let's take the high road. We have all followed a long and circuitous path and now we meet here on Avalon, a place of learning and growth and the exchange of ideas. Let's try to keep it positive. There's more than enough negativity circling about right now.

With Love,

Ken

No problem Ken. Sorry Autumn for criticizing your response dear. Won’t happen again.

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Took a peek at this thread and had to laugh.

Speaking of addiction, what about the addition of the folks who are determined to convince the Q'ers that we've become addicted?

How many anti-Q, discuss Q, analysis Q, debate Q, Addiction Q threads have been started. All of which pretty much seem to be saying the same thing.

Perhaps it's time to look in the mirror.

We Q'ers are just fine and all intelligent folks, we hear what you are saying, just don't agree. We're moving along, but of course, we accept your right to do as you please.

[AutumnW]

Q ramps up compulsion by dropping bread crumbs that adherents feverishly try to piece together to construct a coherent meaningful whole. What they are really doing, speaking of bread, is seeing the face of Jesus in a piece of toast. Though, in this case there is just enough that is verifiably true in the 'drops' that it helps keep the disinfo game going.

Nobody here engages anybody in games that people have to puzzle over to extract meaning. Farrel doesn't do this. Avalon doesn't do this.

This is the salient feature that distinguishes Q from other disinformation campaigns, advertising campaigns, etc. It's really quite brilliant and I applaud those who started it. They understand human nature very well.

Autumn,

I left a post after Jad's response to you and then I saw that you had left another couple of responses to Jad. This isn't really very helpful dialogue here and I think I we might move your post to a more appropriate thread. This thread is meant to be a place for discussing the mechanisms of addiction relative to Qanon. Your post verges on simply bashing Qanon.

Again, let's try to be constructive here.

With Love,

Ken

Please point to where I have bashed Q followers. I stated in all sincerity that I totally GET why people are drawn to it.

[Bill Ryan]

Took a peek at this thread and had to laugh.

Speaking of addiction, what about the addition of the folks who are determined to convince the Q'ers that we've become addicted?

How many anti-Q, discuss Q, analysis Q, debate Q, Addiction Q threads have been started. All of which pretty much seem to be saying the same thing.

Perhaps it's time to look in the mirror.

Someone who maybe daily points out to an addict that they're an addict — isn't addicted to doing that. :)

[petra]

I know what addiction is like and I know what obsession is like.. I tend to think it's the latter.
Like... I was obsessed with painting my fingernails, not addicted to it. I don't think people can be addicted to painting fingernails. Addictions are more physical in my mind I guess.
I reserve the right to be wrong of course - that's just the feel I get never having read any of it.

[Bill Ryan]

I know what addiction is like and I know what obsession is like.. I tend to think it's the latter.
Well, it may be a spectrum.

Obsession is primarily a mental phenomenon. As an extreme, those with Aspergers can get utterly focused and obsessed on tiny things. It's just the way they're wired.

Addiction has a physiological component. People can be addicted to working out at the gym, or long distance running (or rock climbing!) because of the hits they get from endorphins and adrenaline. Some people get addicted to riding on roller coasters (switchback rides). Truly. They have to keep going back for more. Some travel all over the world doing that, on every vacation.

The whole social media thing is more than an obsession — many serious researchers have pointed out the dopamine connection. And because dopamine's a natural thing, it's always there with us as something that can be turned on. Like if we're on a first date, and we're not sure if our partner's going to give us a goodnight kiss or not. That's dopamine, too. :)

My hypothesis was that the compulsion (another word) to think almost exclusively about the Qanon issue starts to become unhealthy. And of course, those who are in that position will defend, and justify. But the indicators are also that many of those who are captivated by Qanon almost never post about anything else. That tells us something.

I do know there are others on the forum who are single-issue members (William Stanford is single-issue about bees! And snoop4truth is single-issue about Deborah Tavares)‚ but here we have a whole small phalanx of them, all kind of joined arm-in-arm like a defensive barricade.

It's so obvious to see. I'd be more reassured if they all contributed less one-dimensionally. But many of them just don't.

[Jayke]

Wasn’t solid research once the prime directive of Project Avalon’s intent? The thrill of hunting for the Truth is what brought me to the forum. The love of wisdom was well known to produce an esoteric kind of mania, Enthusiasmos to the Platonists.


http://rcientificas.uninorte.edu.co/index.php/eidos/article/viewArticle/1433





Eros, psyche and mania: The sources of philosophical inspiration according to Plato. [Spanish]
Carlos Julio Pájaro M.

Abstract

Eros in Phaedro is ethical and philosophical but it’s also Mania and irrationality. Its madness is given both by the god from whom one is possessed in the celestial never ending stream of souls and by its passionate strength originating from the beauty present in “this world” desire, along with the homesickness and desire of beauty the soul enjoyed in its previous mortal and transcendent life. Therefore, is Eros who pushes Psyqué to reacquire her wings when the beloved earthly beauty appears to her. In Phaedro, this is a constitutive stop of Plato’s self critic, who in other dialogs only gave desire and emotions to the body. Eros in Phaedro, the same through whose nature the philosopher rises to sublime ideas is also the cause of the important value passions, feelings and self love acquire now, concomitantly Plato introduces a new conception of madness (eroticism).

Keywords
Enthusiasmós, inspiration, irrationality.

Judgement inhibits the research process imo. My enthusiasm for research is perfectly well-tempered with skepticism and a desire for evidence-backed, ‘hardscience’ validation.

In that regard, I’ve been continuing my research and looking more closely into my last hypothesis...


Maybe Bill or other mods could interview Robert David Steele and get his take on what the Q phenomenon is?

Robert David Steele says it’s a LARP, hoax, or damaging addictive game, then he’s someone with enough insights that I’d take seriously. As far as I can tell though, the Q movement is perfectly aligned to Robert Steeles outsourced intelligence methodology. To the point that it could even be his creation. Heck, he evens mentions his work with Cynthia McKinney and it was Cynthia McKinney who told us Q was Steve Piezcenik on her twitter last year. I guess if Steele is the originator of outsourced intelligence, his relationship with McKinney would put her in a perfect position to know who was behind it.

Currently wading through Steeles book On Intelligence (https://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Spies-Secrecy-Open-World/dp/0916159280) and looking for interviews to see if Steele has commented his thoughts, based on his insights into open source intelligence systems, to see what conclusions his expertise draws around the topic.

Robert David Steele expresses his thoughts on Q at the 44:15 minute mark.

BOzt57yjDAU

I would say that Qanon is real. Qanon is between three and five people and Qanon was hijacked briefly on several false channels, and disinformation appeared. But what I remember in a most compelling way, if someone ask you and on to have Donald Trump used the phrase tip top in a speech and three or four days later he did right yeah there were a couple of couple of examples like that that that and a few others but I do feel that and I'd like your opinion that the people who are Q those people who are giving us these bread crumbs these messages in sometimes a riddle for more question form it seems to be top military brass my feeling those who are trying to win back our country for the first time in a very long time I feel that it's true patriots fighting behind the scenes that know that who understand on a deeper level than most how we the people and our country has been hijacked and they I understand that this is the time to save our country

Personally, I value expertise over novice judgements and aspersions. I’m definitely obsessed with quality and substance. Does that make me insane? I’ll happily wear that moniker if need be, because I know I follow platonic values, regardless of what judgements are cast by others. Although I will admit that following the Q thread has started to feel a lot like the Torment of St Anthony (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Torment_of_Saint_Anthony) at this point. :bigsmile:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Michelangelo_Buonarroti_-_The_Torment_of_Saint_Anthony_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/300px-Michelangelo_Buonarroti_-_The_Torment_of_Saint_Anthony_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
The Torment of Saint Anthony[2] (or The Temptation of Saint Anthony, c. 1487–88) is the earliest known painting by Michelangelo

[Pam]

Took a peek at this thread and had to laugh.

Speaking of addiction, what about the addition of the folks who are determined to convince the Q'ers that we've become addicted?

How many anti-Q, discuss Q, analysis Q, debate Q, Addiction Q threads have been started. All of which pretty much seem to be saying the same thing.

Perhaps it's time to look in the mirror.

Someone who maybe daily points out to an addict that they're an addict — isn't addicted to doing that. :)

Codependency, as in continually pointing out that someone is an addict is in fact a kind of addiction. In fact, it could have a negative impact on the addict, rather than helping. No one, not even an addict wants to be reminded on a regular basis of their shortcomings and this action would in no way help the addict recover. The real question would be what's the payoff for the person repeatedly reminding the person that they are an addict? A more neutral response would be expressing ones concerns regarding the addiction, setting boundaries and moving on.

[Gemma13]

What if . . . someone really clever came up with an idea to try and transition various internet addictions, like Facebook gossip, gaming, gambling, hostile forums, etc, into something more productive, like current affairs, the horror of what is happening in the physical world, etc.

My personal investment in the Avalon Q Thread has always been beneficial as a time saver. I skim and select and am rewarded with very important current affairs updates and/or topics that would not normally come on my radar; as well as prompts that inspire me to investigate things further and elsewhere. I am in awe of the investment the “Q Group/Anons” do in their research.

I also get updates and prompts from other Avalon threads that are updated on a regular basis but there doesn’t appear to be any addiction controversy in those threads.

Actually there is. I have noticed that many antagonists against Q are quite vocal about other topics on Avalon they deem are unsuitable according to their preferences. Which is why I feel at this point in time the “let’s save all these intelligent people from their addiction” is really just another weapon, (like the political one), in the arsenal of a movement that has been brewing for some time to create an “elitist” forum led by self appointed elitists.



Anyone familiar with gamers knows how much time they can spend trying to get to that next level. Many go days without sleep.

Exploiting gamer addiction into a tool for research is, in my book, genius. And I think an analysis of the rewards from both would be interesting, but common sense tells me that time invested in researching current affairs would be far more productive to society than reaching the next level in a virtual fantasy game.

No offense to gamers. I respect the industry, its creativity, and its purpose. It is used here as a point of reference. Having an equal dose of current affairs and virtual gaming would be necessary, lol :)

Time will eventually reveal if the Q “gaming program” has sinister intent or is a political campaign. But, as a tool to get people to “pay attention and wake up” it should not be ignored.

I hope there are other really clever people, with good intentions, learning from this prototype and creatively developing this idea.

If you want to get your kids to learn something, say, “let’s play a game”!

[Bill Ryan]

Took a peek at this thread and had to laugh.

Speaking of addiction, what about the addition of the folks who are determined to convince the Q'ers that we've become addicted?

How many anti-Q, discuss Q, analysis Q, debate Q, Addiction Q threads have been started. All of which pretty much seem to be saying the same thing.

Perhaps it's time to look in the mirror.

Someone who maybe daily points out to an addict that they're an addict — isn't addicted to doing that. :)

Codependency, as in continually pointing out that someone is an addict is in fact a kind of addiction. In fact, it could have a negative impact on the addict, rather than helping. No one, not even an addict wants to be reminded on a regular basis of their shortcomings and this action would in no way help the addict recover. The real question would be what's the payoff for the person repeatedly reminding the person that they are an addict? A more neutral response would be expressing ones concerns regarding the addiction, setting boundaries and moving on.

Yes, of course, 'someone who maybe daily points out to an addict that they're an addict' isn't being very smart (or pragmatically useful! :) ).

I was just making the rhetorical point about what's an addiction and what's not.

[Kryztian]

from
Why Being Right is So Addictive
Robert Solley

full article: https://medium.com/the-mission/why-being-right-is-so-addictive-127cd7a1054

Here are a few parts I think are relevant in the context of Q on Avalon.


The drive to be right is antithetical to relationship and emotional connection, as it elevates oneself at the expense of the other. But why is it so compelling?

From the long view, being right has evolutionary value. Like negativity bias (our brains’ tendency to privilege threat), knowing how to thrive in a complex environment is an adaptive value that has been genetically selected for. This includes things like protecting oneself and one’s family from various dangers and knowing how to access and use resources. Knowledge is power.

At the purely subjective level, being right just feels good. It goes along with all the good feelings of winning, being in control, and being “on top of things” (which relationship-wise is the problem!). I’ve long maintained that these good feelings are actually the product of a dopamine surge, the key reward hormone. Though I have yet to find any research evidence, there is anecdotal support for the idea — and possibly for adrenaline as well. It would also fit with the evolutionary hypothesis. After all, our brains have evolved to reward the thoughts, actions and feelings that help us survive.

This article is about the phenomena of “being right” in an interpersonal relationship, about how it feels for one person to “be right” and declare the other one wrong. However, an addiction can be intensified by other addictions, that act as multipliers. Here we get the addiction of “being right” combined with the addiction of social networking, only to get a more power substance, the addiction of being in a group that is right, the crack cocaine of social networking for the purpose of spreading an ideology .



The ultimate expression of being right is what we call self-righteousness, which gives you a clue as to why it’s so unpleasant on the receiving end. On the delivery end the self-righteous person feels pumped up and (at least superficially) powerful. However, this is precisely what feels so bad for the receiver if he or she is not in agreement. On that end it feels overpowering and diminishing.

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena. It’s been here for a few years and at first it was a presence that some welcomed or at least ignored, but now it has grown in to a nuisance and we are seeing a reaction against it. As with any addiction, there is denial, and there is a lot of blaming of people who point it out. Addictive behaviors are extremely destructive and it is my sincere hope that this phenomena does not continue to dumb down the serious research we are doing or damage the social fabric of this community that has been built up over so many years.

[Bill Ryan]

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena. It’s been here for a few years and at first it was a presence that some welcomed or at least ignored, but now it has grown in to a nuisance and we are seeing a reaction against it. As with any addiction, there is denial, and there is a lot of blaming of people who point it out. Addictive behaviors are extremely destructive and it is my sincere hope that this phenomena does not continue to dumb down the serious research we are doing or damage the social fabric of this community that has been built up over so many years.


That's a very, very good summary.

[Jayke]

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena. It’s been here for a few years and at first it was a presence that some welcomed or at least ignored, but now it has grown in to a nuisance and we are seeing a reaction against it. As with any addiction, there is denial, and there is a lot of blaming of people who point it out. Addictive behaviors are extremely destructive and it is my sincere hope that this phenomena does not continue to dumb down the serious research we are doing or damage the social fabric of this community that has been built up over so many years.


That's a very, very good summary.

Curious.

The difference between summary and analysis is that summaries speak in generalities. Whereas analysis dig into the specifics. Some specifics might be:


How specifically are people feeling “diminished” by the investigative research conducted on the Q thread?
Is there denial that Q people are researching?
Is the collaborative effort of investigation a nuisance? To whom specifically? And how specifically is such research irritating?
Where outside of the Q thread is serious research being conducted?
Who seems dumb to you? Whose getting dumber?
Can these questions be answered objectively? With fact based reason and evidence? Or are they being viewed reactively, through the filters of emotion?

In order to restore the social fabric and build integrity, features are required to be brought into context with the whole. The integration of left brain (detail focus) with right brain (general awareness).

The two hemispheres don’t always have to fight when they can work together collaboratively. Assuming the emotion can be taken out of the equation, which is where all the volatility comes from.

If Kryztian can show how his summary ties into the specifics, then maybe we can begin to have a conversation that heals the rifts, because at the moment it just seems like you guys are trying to diminish what the Q phenomenon—and those of us that look into it—are about. Which would be ironic if the claim is that you guys feel diminished by the Q phenomenon.

[KiwiElf]

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena. It’s been here for a few years and at first it was a presence that some welcomed or at least ignored, but now it has grown in to a nuisance and we are seeing a reaction against it. As with any addiction, there is denial, and there is a lot of blaming of people who point it out. Addictive behaviors are extremely destructive and it is my sincere hope that this phenomena does not continue to dumb down the serious research we are doing or damage the social fabric of this community that has been built up over so many years.


That's a very, very good summary.

How Many? WHO? Exactly?:sherlock:

[Jayke]

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena. It’s been here for a few years and at first it was a presence that some welcomed or at least ignored, but now it has grown in to a nuisance and we are seeing a reaction against it. As with any addiction, there is denial, and there is a lot of blaming of people who point it out. Addictive behaviors are extremely destructive and it is my sincere hope that this phenomena does not continue to dumb down the serious research we are doing or damage the social fabric of this community that has been built up over so many years.


That's a very, very good summary.

How Many? WHO? Exactly?:sherlock:

I’m actually more curious about where the strong aversion to people collaboratively sharing research on a thread stems from? (Which is essentially all the Q thread really is).

I’ve always been of the psychological bent that if something makes you feel diminished, then that something is a potential source of inspiration to help raise you to a new level of empowerment. Marianne Williamsons quote springs to mind in that regard:


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/df/8c/b7df8c0f1cc3aeb3e4de698d5dcf300c.png

I hear everyone’s concerns about Q and its potential damaging effects. I haven’t seen any thorough analysis (based on a comprehensive understanding of neuroscience) to show where or how those concerns are legitimate yet, not one that can’t be easily debunked at least.

I’m not concerned about being right. I seek truth. If evidence is provided to prove I’m wrong about something, for me, it’s an opportunity to update my map of the world (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107477-QTTU-Questions-to-the-Unknown&p=1300500&viewfull=1#post1300500). I don’t see counter-facts or counter-evidence as something to be be denied or swept under the rug, more to be reconciled with the facts that already support the position one stands on. Debate and discourse is win/win when ego can be put to one side to analyse/challenge/consider/refute or disprove facts.

As my heart wisdom tends to channel Ben Shapiro when my ego rears it’s voice, I often have to remind myself: “nature’s facts don’t care about your subjective feelings. Just stick to the evidence, reconcile anything that doesn’t fit, only then will the bigger picture emerge”.

I’ve always found tracking trends to be wiser than prematurely asserting conclusions before a thorough analysis can be concluded. Even when conclusions are made, contrary evidence should be continually sought to update any contradictions that might emerge. It’s a path of retroductive analysis (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327833657_The_Retroductive_Cycle_The_Research_Process_in_Poststructuralist_Discourse_Analysis) that keeps a persons Map of the World (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski) fresh, current and up-to-date.

[petra]

My hypothesis was that the compulsion (another word) to think almost exclusively about the Qanon issue starts to become unhealthy. And of course, those who are in that position will defend, and justify. But the indicators are also that many of those who are captivated by Qanon almost never post about anything else. That tells us something.


Seems I'm having a hard time with language again, sorry Bill, your response is helping me make sense of it though. Captivated is a much nicer way of describing the Qanon following, and I've considered it might not be unhealthy for everyone. Whoever's in charge of Qanon has a pretty impressive little outlet, and maybe it's doing THEM some good.

I compare this to when I had an online gaming addiction, which might have also been an obsession! There have been several games, and I remember thinking "I'm going to be playing this game forever" because I just could not imagine my life any other way. But then, the unimaginable happened! I got bored with the game and left. I enjoyed playing - I don't regret it - I just look back on it now like a huge waste of time.

I'd also like to point out I'm not accusing anyone of being obsessed - just curious, and maybe a bit concerned.
'Never post about anything else' sounds like obsession, and I'd say chances are a good deal of their thinking is regarding Qanon also. Maybe it's not all bad though, I mean, I enjoy puzzles and things that make me think too....



I do know there are others on the forum who are single-issue members (William Stanford is single-issue about bees! And snoop4truth is single-issue about Deborah Tavares)‚ but here we have a whole small phalanx of them, all kind of joined arm-in-arm like a defensive barricade.

It's so obvious to see. I'd be more reassured if they all contributed less one-dimensionally. But many of them just don't.

I started out this way, but things changed in my mind when I started to make connections. I recall thinking that my "train of thought" was "broken", and as foolish as that sounds, I'm pretty sure I'm onto something. It was like being stuck in some kind of loop.... I hate infinite loops :P

EDIT:


If you want to get your kids to learn something, say, “let’s play a game”!

HAHAHA <3
Brilliant, Gemma.

[DeDukshyn]

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena. It’s been here for a few years and at first it was a presence that some welcomed or at least ignored, but now it has grown in to a nuisance and we are seeing a reaction against it. As with any addiction, there is denial, and there is a lot of blaming of people who point it out. Addictive behaviors are extremely destructive and it is my sincere hope that this phenomena does not continue to dumb down the serious research we are doing or damage the social fabric of this community that has been built up over so many years.


That's a very, very good summary.

How Many? WHO? Exactly?:sherlock:

Who cares ... maybe do another poll if you really want to know "WHO" exactly, if that is important to you.

Avalon has provided myself so much great information over the years, the "Q" material has provided me absolutely nothing positive that I can say has advanced my learning, but has given me negative experiences and left a sour taste in my mouth for one. Many members gone, nothing good. Why all the praise and defense of such "hope chasing" and political alignments that has brought all this about is beyond me, but the mechanisms that allow dogmatic religion are sure beginning to show ...

My two cents.

[Kryztian]

And there are many of us on Avalon that feel diminished by this Q phenomena.

That's a very, very good summary.

How Many? WHO? Exactly?:sherlock:

Hmmm, that sounds a little bit like you are about to embark on a witch hunt KiwiElf except the Sherlock Holmes emoticon probably indicates a little bit of sarcasm in that comment. Maybe you are seriously interested in knowing what Q critics think? :confused:

Let me just say a lot of things were said in confidence to me (or at least without expectations that I would reveal names in this post) in PMs and in other places to the effect of:

- "There are certain threads you just don't want to go on. There are certain people you don't want to get in arguments with." The "swamp critters" was at the heart of it, and the people who were dogmatically and unpleasantly argumentative were active on the Q-threads. When people commented on some threads that were treated like outsiders. Fortunately, many of the worst offenders are gone (#1 being Voice from the Wilderness). I think that in the last week or so almost everyone is behaving more civilly on Avalon. That's just my perspective, and if it's true, I don't know if it is because we are all maturing or maybe we are just tired of bickering.

- As far as the "How Many" question goes, you might want to look at the numbers here. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107183-The-Q-poll) It's not an exact analysis, but the numbers do tell a story.

For the record, I've stated before the Project Avalon is a place where we look at mysterious and questionable documents and analyze them. For quite some time, when people told me they were interested in Q, I told them to check on the threads on Avalon. I really do think we owe it to the world to produce a good critical look on "Q" materials. Unfortunately, the "critical" part has been removed from the equation. With a few exceptions, the thread is guided and populated by a group of people who assume the good intentions of the authors of these documents (people in the intelligence documents - historically, has the public gotten much helpful information directly from the CIA, OSS, NSA, etc.?) and believe in future outcomes based on this. This is no longer critical thinking. This is religion (the opiate type) and it is being cultivated on this thread. I look forward to the day when critical thinking will be present on all threads on Avalon, when assumptions can be challenged, and where people will welcome contrary opinions and look at them as an opportunity to be challenged and think more deeply.

[AutumnW]

Accidentally placed this on wrong thread.

[Kryztian]

I’m actually more curious about where the strong aversion to people collaboratively sharing research on a thread stems from? (Which is essentially all the Q thread really is).


Where, oh where, has anyone on Avalon criticized the Q phenomena on the many thoughtful and constructively critical post that are here, merely on the basis that they are people sharing research??? Are you saying that those of us critical of Q don't like it when people get together and share research to cure a disease or solve or crime? Or are you saying that all people who share research are doing good work, including when they share research so that they can plan a terrorist attack or commit extortion???

If there is to be any meaningful dialogue here on Avalon, Jakye, you have to stop creating a portrait of the Q-group here as victims based on criticism that doesn't actually exist. Time for a little more honesty here.

[Pam]

I'm kind of wondering why a thread that is supposedly about addiction is devolving into a bickerfest? Oh the venom, I can almost taste it.

Back to topic!!!!!:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

[Jayke]

I’m actually more curious about where the strong aversion to people collaboratively sharing research on a thread stems from? (Which is essentially all the Q thread really is).


Where, oh where, has anyone on Avalon criticized the Q phenomena on the many thoughtful and constructively critical post that are here, merely on the basis that they are people sharing research??? Are you saying that those of us critical of Q don't like it when people get together and share research to cure a disease or solve or crime? Or are you saying that all people who share research are doing good work, including when they share research so that they can plan a terrorist attack or commit extortion???

If there is to be any meaningful dialogue here on Avalon, Jakye, you have to stop creating a portrait of the Q-group here as victims based on criticism that doesn't actually exist. Time for a little more honesty here.

Feel free to ask your questions on the ‘Q off topic’ thread Kryztian. If you sincerely care for honest dialogue, I’ll happily answer your questions over there. :bigsmile:

[Bill Ryan]

I'm kind of wondering why a thread that is supposedly about addiction is devolving into a bickerfest? Oh the venom, I can almost taste it.

Back to topic!!!!!:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

It's a symptom of a malaise that's not healing, whatever anyone does. It's unlikely to go away, until Qanon does (which will of course happen one day), or those supporting the meme choose to go elsewhere (if they do).

There are all the attributes of cult members defending criticism, when the cult leader ('Q') is held to be infallible, impossible to question or dialog with, and forever making promises and saying 'trust the plan'.

Those are all cult characteristics. People get addicted to being cult members, too, with a similar mechanism. Excitement, hope, never being quite certain, always hanging on promises, looking for tomorrow rather than today, and often badly seeking something better in their lives sourced externally rather than internally are all the commonalities.

[AutumnW]

Hopes of a promised land can be anywhere from harmless to silly to dangerous. It encourages people who would ordinarily take up arms to fight a military dictatorship to put DOWN their guns and quietly acquiese.

That is, if the Promised Land is framed by military propaganda operations (begun as Larps) as a place where pedophiles and terrorists are being rounded up by the military.

Boots on the ground, at that point will be welcomed. True fascists are often welcomed with open arms by a population who have been enticed with atrocity propaganda.

[Frank V]

I'm kind of wondering why a thread that is supposedly about addiction is devolving into a bickerfest? Oh the venom, I can almost taste it.

Back to topic!!!!!:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

It's a symptom of a malaise that's not healing, whatever anyone does. It's unlikely to go away, until Qanon does (which will of course happen one day), or those supporting the meme choose to go elsewhere (if they do).

There are all the attributes of cult members defending criticism, when the cult leader ('Q') is held to be infallible, impossible to question or dialog with, and forever making promises and saying 'trust the plan'.

Those are all cult characteristics. People get addicted to being cult members, too, with a similar mechanism. Excitement, hope, never being quite certain, always hanging on promises, looking for tomorrow rather than today, and often badly seeking something better in their lives sourced externally rather than internally are all the commonalities.



:bump::bump2:

[mountain_jim]

Lots of straw-men arguments being used here - some of us do not consider Q a cult leader, infallible, or any of that. I consider it a military intelligence operation to get info out that bypasses the MSM, and the coded info releases lead to real gained knowledge of some of the systemic corruption activities.

Whether the growing awareness of systemic corruption in part of the populace leads to good results remains to be seen.

What I don't understand is given the depths of this current ongoing systemic corruption, what the 'correct' response is to effect change in the status quo.

I see the Q process nay-sayers raising problems and issues, but I don't see the alternative solutions being proposed, given a near hopelessly contaminated leadership and news reportage stream over recent years.

Back to the subject of this thread, I admit to being an internet addict - while I work at my (home office) desk 10-12 hours a day, opportunities are available to keep up with my Q drops, conspiracy forums, music forums, sports forums and articles, etc.

I sometimes click often on a thread reporting baseball trade rumors prior to the deadline, for example.

However, that's surface level stuff - my spiritual core was not externally sourced and is not maintained by these surface events in our evolving consensus reality/realities.

Rather meditation, inner explorations, and a surprisingly 'accidental' Kundalini spinal energy nervous system sensitizing/purifying process being major sources.

This Q process will be a good test for my intuition accuracy level, I admit. (My hopes when Obama was elected certainly were dashed, a major learning lesson along the way.)

Using addiction as another way of diminishing and criticizing forum members who participate in Q research is 'weak sauce', in my view.

[Pam]

I'm kind of wondering why a thread that is supposedly about addiction is devolving into a bickerfest? Oh the venom, I can almost taste it.

Back to topic!!!!!:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

It's a symptom of a malaise that's not healing, whatever anyone does. It's unlikely to go away, until Qanon does (which will of course happen one day), or those supporting the meme choose to go elsewhere (if they do).

There are all the attributes of cult members defending criticism, when the cult leader ('Q') is held to be infallible, impossible to question or dialog with, and forever making promises and saying 'trust the plan'.

Those are all cult characteristics. People get addicted to being cult members, too, with a similar mechanism. Excitement, hope, never being quite certain, always hanging on promises, looking for tomorrow rather than today, and often badly seeking something better in their lives sourced externally rather than internally are all the commonalities.

Bill, I really do understand what you are saying. But there are some very wonderful people that are following Q. They are more than that. They are much, much more than that. Please, please remember this. I don't have personal buddies here but even I know that you have at least one person that has been extremely loyal to you for as long as I have been here and probably much longer. That person has been a great asset and friend of this forum. If you found that person lying in a gutter succumbing to drug addiction would you walk by? Please, ask yourself what is more important. Ask yourself, if this was the last day of your life, would you rather say you thwarted a thread , which would have passed as all things do, or would you rather.......... I say this with all sincerity. No need to respond if you don't want to.

With Respect, Pam

[Kryztian]

Bill, I really do understand what you are saying. But there are some very wonderful people that are following Q. They are more than that. They are much, much more than that. Please, please remember this.

Yes, many of us critical of the Q phenomena would agree that there are wonderful people here. But wonderful people do fall prey to addictions and bad ideas. If they weren't such wonderful people, it wouldn't be so upsetting for the rest of us.

In the last 1970's a group of community activists, civil rights and social justice crusaders, anti-war pacifists and other compassionate people banded together. Many of them went on a retreat together in Guyana, South America to a community they were creating called "Jonestown". There, they were forced at gun point to drink Kool-Aide laced with cyanide, and over 900 people died.

After the mass death occurred, it took more than 24 hours before a Guyanese government plan landed to discover the disaster and announce the news to the world. However, it was clear from messages broadcasted to U.S. naval submarines about this incident that day before , that many in the U.S. intelligence had advanced knowledge of this incident. The leader, Jim Jones, who was clearly mentally ill, even though he was also a charismatic speaker, had a strange associate name Dan Mittrione that popped in an out his life. Mittrione was probably an intelligence agency asset and had a MKULTRA like tendency to experiement with people, often picking up homeless people on the streets of Uruguay and torturing them. It's pretty clear that the path to Jonestown was cleared by forces within U.S. intelligence (for more, see Peter Levenda's, Sinister Forces, Vol. 2, pp 169 - 183).

So "Kool Aid" has become synonymous with bad ideas and bad beliefs. And whether we are talking about ideas, beliefs, or the actual sugar based powdered drink, Kool Aid can be quite addictive.

It is heart breaking to see so many wonderful people addictively drinking the Kool Aide that comes from the intelligence community.

[gini]

So i see that the Q 'followers' are becoming the scapegoats.

First shadowbanned(out of public side),then ridiculed,and now they are framed as silly junkies.. It looks to me that the most 'addicted' Avalon members projecting their frustrations ,and get a dopamine thrill from feeling superior. Next step is to identify the mentally weak members who could be potential 'cultfollowing suiciders'. Isnt it better to stimulate to stay focused on the research then to be distracted by this insulting generalizing pseudo analysis ? I assumed that Avalon is here as well to wake up & inspire the 'normal' people (;redpill the 'normies') ,to start their own search for the truth. But to me thats the essence of the Qmovement as well! How to learn to think for oneself!

A happy person has no interest in critizicing others,she just want to inspire and encourage each & everyone to trust their path. We are all divine beings:heart:

[Frank V]

Using addiction as another way of diminishing and criticizing forum members who participate in Q research is 'weak sauce', in my view.

Vehement denial is yet another ostensibly manifest sign of addiction. QED. :ranger:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrLu1DOc1lE


Breathe it in and breathe it out
And pass it on, it's almost out
We're so creative, so much more
We're high above but on the floor
It's not a habit, it's cool, I feel alive
If you don't have it you're on the other side
The deeper you stick it in your vein
The deeper the thoughts, there's no more pain
I'm in heaven, I'm a god
I'm everywhere, I feel so hot
It's not a habit, it's cool, I feel alive
If you don't have it you're on the other side
I'm not an addict, maybe that's a lie
It's over now, I'm cold, alone
I'm just a person on my own
Nothing means a thing to me
Oh, nothing means a thing to me
It's not a habit, it's cool, I feel alive
If you don't have it you're on the other side
I'm not an addict, maybe that's a lie
Free me, leave me
Watch me as I'm going down and
Free me, see me
Look at me, I'm falling and I'm falling
It is not a habit
It is cool, I feel alive, I feel
It is not a habit
It is cool, I feel alive
It's not a habit, it's cool, I feel alive
If you don't have it you're on the other side
I'm not an addict, maybe that's a lie
I'm not an addict
I'm not an addict
I'm not an addict

[Gemma13]

I think we would be hard pushed to find just a few people on the planet who are not drinking a belief system/Kool Aide from one intelligence community or another.

Hoping and praying for decent human beings within intelligence communities to devise a plan to try and unshackle people from harmful indoctrination; to get people to look at alternative media and to think and subsequently research for themselves; and to support players within the current system to expose and topple the system; is something I think we all want.

This is the intelligence I see from the Q supporters/researchers here and is why I don’t see them at any risk of walking into a Jonestown scenario.

I think perhaps the biggest problem for many Q detractors is the “Trump” issue which is unfortunate because there was no other alternative to Trump besides Hillary. There is so much about Trump not to like but I’m glad the public chose the “unknown” from the “known” as it opened up a crack in the wall and provided a window of opportunity. We have to watch over time to see if that crack in the wall can be leveraged to [hopefully] bring the wall down. And it isn’t Trump (or any POTUS) that can do this all on their lonesome. It will be those working behind the scenes.

I’m keeping an interest until elections. If Trump isn’t re-elected it will be interesting to see whether Q is POTUS specific. If Trump is re-elected then I’ll have to wait another 4 years :)

[Jayke]

If Q researchers drank cool aid, the Q threads on Avalon would be as lifeless as ‘The One Truth’ forum. Q researchers drink rocket fuel! That’s why we’ve been ahead of the curve over a year now. :ROFL: (jokes). But it’s also why fires have raged. Rocket fuel is volatile, especially when Q critics try and slap it away from stable hands.

Still reading Robert Steeles book ‘On Intelligence (https://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Spies-Secrecy-Open-World/dp/0916159280)’. It confirms much of my suspicions that the Q phenomenon fits within a model of ‘open source intelligence’. But Holy ****, the bibliography :idea: worth buying the book for the bibliography alone. 50 pages of annotated books, meaning each of the 150-200 books listed has a brief synopsis and summary of how the key idea in each book fits into the ‘open source’ philosophy. Most of the books point to research on open systems that were published in the 1990’s with some reaching back into the 70’s.

Just one example (from pg. 402):





Sense, Peter M. The Fifth Discipline (https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254/ref=sr_1_1?crid=6NOZ98GNHCDA&keywords=the+fifth+discipline+the+art+%26+practice+of+the+learning+organization&qid=1564223493&s=books&sprefix=The+fifth+disc%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C244&sr=1-1): The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization (Doubleday, 1990)

Without a shared vision there can be no shifting of minds, no team learning, no local initiatives consistent with shared vision, and so on. The U.S. Intelligence Community is confounded by its new circumstances, where commercial technology is better than spy technology, commercial sources are better (in the aggregate) than spy sources, and there is a real question as to whether anyone really cares whether the U.S. Intelligence Community exists or not. We need a vision for national intelligence that imparts two distinct values to each intelligence professional: first, a value member as a member of a larger global community of experts, each of whom is dedicated to protecting the people and improving their lot; and second, a value as a member of an exclusive elite group of intelligence professionals dedicated to the dangerous and difficult profession of espionage. These are not contradictory values. We need a Director-General for National Intelligence (DGNI) able to impart vision, not only to the employees across all agencies, but to the President and Congress as well as the public.


That’s just one book out of at least 150 similar books in the bibliography. The literature around open system intelligence is vast and thoroughly comprehensive. It goes way beyond anything I even considered or imagined.

If people think Q will go away once Trump leaves office...based on what I’m reading, they’re going to be seriously disappointed. Q is just the beginning. It’s the opening gambit in a long term plan that’s been thoroughly mapped, analysed, researched and studied. To a degree that even I find overwhelming.

One of the questions I’m left with is “if Steeles book was published in 2001, why has it taken 18 years for the first signs of an open source intelligence agency to manifest in society?”. That’s a long time to wait before implementing strategies that pioneer a paradigm shift that takes the global communications infrastructure closer to operating more like a World Brain (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Brain) or a noosphere (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere).

I will concede one point though. There is one definition of cult that fits the phenomenon...


cult
/kʌlt/
noun
1.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St Olaf"
2.
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.
"the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK"
synonyms: craze, fashion, fad, vogue; informalthing
"the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK"

The Q movement has definitely become a cult hit among popular sections of society. It’s a movement that’s only likely to grow over the next few years as well. And if it really does represent what Robert Steele suggests it does...then, well...you can move the Q threads in the cellar of the forum to contain the fires, but the signals only going to get stronger over time.

The paradigm shift of change and its resulting polarities of discord have been electrifying society for a while now. I’d say we’re past the most disruptive part of the process, things should mostly stabilise from here on out. The arbritary misnomers of positive and negative affects from the Q phenomenon, are just indicative of a deeper process that’s been subtly influencing the undercurrents of society.


https://i.ibb.co/bQSQ4Pj/171-AA0-AE-8-D7-D-42-E2-B541-5-FF873502391.png (https://ibb.co/HBWBcVL)

[Matthew]

I'm really sorry how Q followers are spotlighted like this. The opportunity for sanctimonious pot-shots is terrifying, I'm feeling for you all right now, like I'm with you too (best I can). It think the point is perceived...


...perceived as a...

Here's my interpretation of Bills words from here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107996-Qanon-and-the-mechanism-of-addiction&p=1306670&viewfull=1#post1306670)


There are all the attributes of cult members defending [Q infallibility, Q unfulfilled promises and 'trust the plan']

Those are all cult characteristics. People get addicted to being 'cult' members ...

So fair or unfair, but that is it; Bill's perception. Just because it is perceived, and share characteristics, doesn't mean all Q followers are cultists. And however compelling Q's correlation to the model of open source intelligence you mention Jake, I enjoyed that post above, but itself doesn't help the perception.

Find those things that make it perceived as a cult yourself, because it's best you take control of understanding why Bill thinks this, and I respect your sovereignty to align with Bill's perception, rather than be told it. I believe it's better that way round. Much respect - Matthew

[Jayke]

I'm really sorry how Q followers are spotlighted like this. The opportunity for sanctimonious pot-shots is terrifying, I'm feeling for you all right now, like I'm with you too (best I can). It think the point is perceived...


...perceived as a...

Here's my interpretation of Bills words from here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107996-Qanon-and-the-mechanism-of-addiction&p=1306670&viewfull=1#post1306670)


There are all the attributes of cult members defending [Q infallibility, Q unfulfilled promises and 'trust the plan']

Those are all cult characteristics. People get addicted to being 'cult' members ...

So fair or unfair, but that is it; Bill's perception. Just because it is perceived, and share characteristics, doesn't mean all Q followers are cultists. And however compelling Q's correlation to the model of open source intelligence you mention Jake, I enjoyed that post above, but itself doesn't help the perception.

Find those things that make it perceived as a cult yourself, because it's best you take control of understanding why Bill thinks this, and I respect your sovereignty to align with Bill's perception, rather than be told it. I believe it's better that way round. Much respect - Matthew

If everyone aligned with Bills perception the forum would become an echo chamber of Bill’s thoughts. Bill is free to think and perceive however he wishes, just as we have the sovereignty to do the same. My research and investigation is my own sovereign path, the information shared is there for others to dismiss or consider as anyone sees fit. I understand why Bill thinks the way he does. I would never want to take control of anyone else’s understanding though. I would much prefer to see other people’s research and logic chains to see how they arrive at conclusions, but alas, most people just summarise their personal projections and perceive those projections as unquestionable truth. I encourage people to try and pick apart my research strands, which is why I link as many references as possible, I’m not addicted to my conclusions and always consider alternative views for veracity, even when the evidence appears overwhelming.

Logic and analysis is the antithesis to group think and propoganda. You know who else, besides Q, encourages people to ‘Think Logically’... John Rappaport, he’s got a whole course on logic and analysis. No one has to blindly follow Q when they can cross reference Q drops with other hard hitting researchers to create an entirely unique synthesis of one’s own. Sovereignty is definitely the key word and ultimate goal, for me at least, and many others on the Q thread I believe.

===========

https://nomorefakenews.com/logiccourseoutline.html




* A follow-on course to the Logic And Analysis Course has been created entitled Analyzing Information in the Age of Disinformation. It is filled with specific examples of my past investigations. Based on 25 years of experience, it shows you how to take apart and put together data that lead to valid conclusions. It's an advanced approach to analysis that picks up from the Logic And Analysis Course. Establishing power outside The Matrix requires that a person be able to deal with today's flood of information, misinformation, and disinformation. I've left no stone unturned in bringing you a workable approach to analysis. Click here for more details.

There are several confusions about how logic relates to faith, and I’d like to clear those up.

Consider the amazing amount of information floating around in our culture. Books, articles, internet postings, television news, videos, lectures, seminars, political talk, sales pitches, public relations chatter, scientific claims, educational material, and so on. In this arena, there are HUGE numbers of logical errors. As a reporter and educator, I’ve been cataloguing the errors for 25 years.

If children approach this mountain range of information with no understanding of logic, they will accept some ideas and reject other ideas in unpredictable ways—almost on a random basis. They will walk unarmed into the future and have no basis for judgment.

Who in his right mind wants to encourage or condone a situation like this?

That’s why I created the LOGIC AND ANALYSIS course. It provides a very thorough grounding in a tradition that is all about rational thought. The student gains the ability to analyze information from many different fields and find the flaws. The student becomes very skilled at using the superb tools of logic.

On the other hand, there is faith. This is very personal and very profound. Logic doesn’t touch faith. It is a separate subject.

I have found, in fact, that people armed with logic become much clearer about their own faith. Why? Because they aren’t trying to put that faith under the magnifying glass of analysis. They understand that faith and logic are two different worlds.

However, when people try to attack faith with their own version of logic, those who really know logic can respond immediately and lucidly—and fend off those arguments with great ease.

When, many years ago, I studied the great Western philosophers—especially Plato, the father of rational thought—I was struck by how clearly he admitted his own faith.

These days, some scientists are finally coming to grips with these issues. They are climbing down off their high horses and saying there are matters beyond the scope of the physical sciences.

There is no contradiction here.

If I said the existence of a hammer somehow eliminated the need for a screwdriver, everyone would know I was off my rocker. If I said travel documentaries completely negated the idea of actually going somewhere and seeing life firsthand, people would know I needed a good brain-nutrition supplement. If I said music clearly eliminated the need for science, I’d be laughed out of court.

So it is with logic and faith. The existence of one doesn’t challenge the existence of the other.

They actually support each other.

Some people of faith are a bit nervous about logic. Here is the reason: They haven’t studied enough logic. If they had, they would know that logic eventually brings you to a place where you have to confess you are now navigating by other means. You are crossing over into a territory where different rules apply. Your deepest convictions are now your compass, and those convictions don’t require a foundation of proof. They only require the reward that comes from believing what you believe.
==========

Seems Rappaport actually thinks Logic and Faith go hand in hand. Curious how people disparage those notions with Q yet applaud it with Rappaport.

[Matthew]

I'm not saying anyone should start thinking like anyone. I bet a member of the forum could be involved with anyone of the many cults out there, and that might not be a problem, depending on their behaviour. Cult like behaviour gets called out by Bill, I'm rooting for Q followers to find whatever compromise might be good

[Jayke]

I'm not saying anyone should start thinking like anyone. I bet a member of the forum could be involved with anyone of the many cults out there, and that might not be a problem, depending on their behaviour. Cult like behaviour gets called out by Bill, I'm rooting for Q followers to find whatever compromise might be good

What kind of compromise would you like to see happen? Personally I feel keeping the Q thread in the members only is fine. Let the Q researchers do their thing without Q critics casting aspersions. The Q booth is working fine for political debate. This thread is fine for exploring the scientific mechanisms that underpin the psychology behind the Q movement. What other compromises do you feel need to be made?

[Matthew]

Yes, I see what you mean, compromise is completely the wrong word; bad choice of words, sorry about that. The result isn't compromise, it's .. I suppose um not to be perceived as a cult?

[Jayke]

Yes, I see what you mean, compromise is completely the wrong word; bad choice of words, sorry about that. The result isn't compromise, it's .. I suppose um not to be perceived as a cult?

You do realise there are other forums online where they have threads calling Bill a cult leader and that us Avalon denizens are Bill’s group think chattel? I know that’s not true. Why should we have to control other people’s misguided perceptions? How they perceive the world is their own responsibility.


“Perception is Projection” — Carl Jung


https://www.coachingwithnlp.co/perception-is-projection/


We can only perceive what is already in our consciousness. This comes from a guy called Carl Jung, who was a Swiss psychologist and one of the 3 fathers of psychology, along with Freud and Adler. He said what we perceive is who we are. What we perceive outside ourselves is who we are. That means we can’t perceive anything out side of ourselves that is not us.

You may say, yes, I can agree he is my projection, or he is, but that person certainly is not. What Carl Jung said, “We tend take our most unconscious material and project it on people and events around us. That which is unconscious must of need be projected on people and events that are around us.”

[Matthew]

Actually yes, and once while I was protesting scientology IRL with anonymous one time we joked it takes a cult to fight a cult. My point was about the sovereignty of the accused, and as always it was a delight talking with you - great ending quote btw

[Kryztian]

I think we would be hard pushed to find just a few people on the planet who are not drinking a belief system/Kool Aide from one intelligence community or another.

Quite true Gemma, but I think most of us are here at Project Avalon because we want to get the Kool Aide out of our systems, not ingest more of it. I think most threads here are doing that, getting us to face up to all the possibilities, even the ugly ones, and even the ones of the dont' have clear answers. They are red pills waking us up to all the possibilities of the truth. But "Q" is the blue pill topic, at least the way it is being discussed on the forum. It can only be seen on the forum as a valid and sincere expression of truth coming from a place of integrity. Every little breadcrumb of information that can support this thesis has to be emphasized. Every major news story that contradicts it has to ignored.



This is the intelligence I see from the Q supporters/researchers here and is why I don’t see them at any risk of walking into a Jonestown scenario.

No, I don't claim to be able to see in the future and know of a particular scenario. But the people who boarded the planes for Guyana would have laughed at you if you could have told them exactly what would happening to them. And they didn't have a way of knowing how connected to nefarious intelligence networks the Jonestown affair was, meanwhile, most Q supporters assume the drops come from the intelligence world assume they are wholesome and nutritious.


I’m keeping an interest until elections. If Trump isn’t re-elected it will be interesting to see whether Q is POTUS specific. If Trump is re-elected then I’ll have to wait another 4 years :)

Hmm, I've heard pledges like this from my new-lib friends on Facebook. They promised they would only rant about how Russia colluded with Trump to hack the election for two years if definitive proof didn't come out to prove their righteousness. Now they are deep into the Mueller report and seeing the the Jeffrey Epstein affair only relates to Trump and not the Clintons. They gave up regular cocaine for crack.

[Gemma13]

The problem I have with the Kool Aid/cult argument is the assumption that Q researchers are blinded by fanatical faith that will eventually lead them into a potential future of ?????

Q data is no different to me than any other mainstream, or alternative, news media outlet. They all have infused coordinates to navigate readers/viewers into waters of their choosing.

The reports I don’t agree with from, for example, Jon Rappoport are minimal to what I do agree with, so I continue to follow his work. The reports I don’t agree with from a mainstream news outlet are excessive so I don’t follow them closely, but make a point of looking into them to see what influence they are having.

Q is an interesting news feed because it often provides links to opposing media outlets to juxtapose the contradictions. In my opinion this is a good catalyst for readers to wake up to propaganda, logically analyse the propaganda, and then arrive at their own determinations.

The “Trust the Plan” catchcry is certainly an ambiguous marker for concern. I get that. And any number of for and against speculations can be made of it; from being a plan to lead people up the garden path to a plan for raising people’s awareness, and everything inbetween.

All media outlets have to rely on marketing of sorts to promote and entice their readers/viewers in a sea of information. Selling personalities, products, ideas, etc until reputation is strong enough to garner subscription and subsequent organic promotion from subscribers. Q’s game scenario and memes marketing doesn’t automatically default to being of nefarious intent.

[Bill Ryan]

Two interesting articles. I'll just link them, not copy them. They're very dismissive of many things, of course, and have a very mainstream view. They talk about 'conspiracy theories', which usually makes me stop reading immediately.

But the personal stories in there are probably true.

~~~


People Tell Us How QAnon Destroyed Their Relationships
https://vice.com/en_ca/article/xwnjx4/people-tell-us-how-qanon-destroyed-their-relationships



Christmas Is the Loneliest Time for Qanon Fans
The Daily Beast spoke to four Q believers who claim to have been isolated from loved ones, as well as a former Q believer who thinks the isolation helps reinforce QAnon support.
https://thedailybeast.com/christmas-is-the-loneliest-time-for-qanon-fans

This is indirectly connected with the thread topic. The same can be said of UFO nuts, of course, but almost everything else in the alternative community is rather less strident, obsessive and potentially divisive — maybe with the exception of the Corey Goode cult, and the Flat Earthers (also a kind of cult, though without a leader or any 'trust-the-plan' promises).

The commonality, of course, is that under heavy criticism, the believers form a self-justifying, mutually protective plalanx, and dialog becomes more and more impossible. That's what the articles are about.

[Frank V]

If Q researchers drank cool aid, the Q threads on Avalon would be as lifeless as ‘The One Truth’ forum.

There was absolutely no need for that provocation, and in addition to that, it is also nonsensical, non sequitur, and perfectly consistent with the behavior of a dopamine addict. The more you talk, the more you confirm your addiction.

The One Truth isn't quite lifeless, but not everyone on the internet revels in hatred and strife. First of all, our member base doesn't even encompass 10% of the number of members Project Avalon has, and secondly, at The One Truth, we look for a synthesis, instead of jerking our knees and cheering for either the thesis or the antithesis.

However, it takes a certain degree of enlightenment to realize that you're never going to get to the next floor without taking the stairs or the elevator, and as you yourself are once again so adequately illustrating, not everyone is that enlightened, and least of all those who like pretending that they are.


Q researchers drink rocket fuel!

Now that would indeed explain for a lot, because the consumption of rocket fuel is known to cause brain damage.



* * * * * * * * *


P.S. 1: Researchers conduct research. What you guys are doing isn't research but cheerleading. The actual researchers who've investigated the QAnon phenomenon have already long called it quits because they inevitably all came to the conclusion that it is bunk, just like the narratives from Corey Goode, Simon Parkes, Shane "The Ruiner" Bales, "Captain" Mark Richards, Randy "Captain Kaye" Cramer, Chris Thomas, et al.

P.S. 2: Welcome to my ignore list. With two forums to run even though I own neither of them, a very active membership at yet two other forums where I provide computer-related technical assistance, several dear friends who are going through hard times in their personal lives and who need my support, and the lamentable circumstances of my own life sprinkled on top ─ not to mention that it has been 41.8 °C for two days in a row over here where I live ─ I really don't need the extra aggravation from delusional and arrogantly immature individuals with no sense of discernment and the courtesy of a rattlesnake.

[Jayke]

Two interesting articles. I'll just link them, not copy them. They're very dismissive of many things, of course, and have a very mainstream view. They talk about 'conspiracy theories', which usually makes me stop reading immediately.

But the personal stories in there are probably true.

~~~


People Tell Us How QAnon Destroyed Their Relationships
https://vice.com/en_ca/article/xwnjx4/people-tell-us-how-qanon-destroyed-their-relationships



Christmas Is the Loneliest Time for Qanon Fans
The Daily Beast spoke to four Q believers who claim to have been isolated from loved ones, as well as a former Q believer who thinks the isolation helps reinforce QAnon support.
https://thedailybeast.com/christmas-is-the-loneliest-time-for-qanon-fans

This is indirectly connected with the thread topic. The same can be said of UFO nuts, of course, but almost everything else in the alternative community is rather less strident, obsessive and potentially divisive — maybe with the exception of the Corey Goode cult, and the Flat Earthers (also a kind of cult, though without a leader or any 'trust-the-plan' promises).

There was a person on twitter yesterday who was complaining that their 6 year relationship had just broken down because the girls boyfriend couldn’t understand her commitment to her Orthodox Christian Faith. I’m sure the phenomenon described in those articles isn’t limited to Q followers but to any value system people choose to engage in.

We’ve been saying for over a year that there are facets of different organisational structures (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107710-The-Q-threads-have-been-moved-to-a-members-only-section.&p=1302970&viewfull=1#post1302970) that belong to any movement. Groupthink, religious ferver, idol worship, mercentalism etc, which do obviously make some of the facets, but they don’t describe the whole movement. It’s the zeroing in on the negative aspects while ignoring the positive aspects that I find particularly dismissive and short sighted by the Q critics.

If the Q critics rephrased things more accurately “there are elements of Q that I vehemently disagree with”, then yeah fine, people are entitled to perceive things however they like. But when people take their particular facet of understanding and generalise it onto the entire movement, that’s when people start to feel discriminated against. Especially those of us, like Gemma above, who just see Q as 1 more source of information, a source who doesn’t replace the likes of Joseph Farrell, Jon Rappaport, Daniel Liszt, Catherine Austin Fitts, but whose data can sit alongside them and enrich the research that we already conduct. I still follow all of them—along with many other researchers—does that make me a cult member to all of them too? Of course not, it’s just another point of correlation in a wide spectrum of research avenues.


The commonality, of course, is that under heavy criticism, the believers form a self-justifying, mutually protective plalanx, and dialog becomes more and more impossible. That's what the articles are about.

The reverse is also true, the Q critics are just as organised in joining formation to hurl insults. The phalanx is primarily a defensive formation. Dialogue might be impossible if the only intent is to throw discriminatory slurs, like character assassination grenades, into the formation. Identity politics is just going to bounce right off the phalanx wall and be reflected back to the thrower. Kryztian mentioned earlier that I portray the Q followers as victims. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve never seen us as victims. I’ve said we’ve come under hostile assaults from people lobbing their projections onto the movement, trying to pigeon hole us into their personal label or definition of how they imagine things to be. But I agree with the phalanx analogy, because I see Q people as champions! Spartan warriors who come under perpetual attack but always holding their ground, unflinching and unmoving in the face of hostile tribes throwing stones over the phalanx wall. But we’ll put the shields down when a person can leave their slurs at the door and engage in dialogue that isn’t tainted with cynicism and judgement.

Dialogue isn’t impossible when people can agree to disagree, Gracy is a champion in her own right for engaging in mutually respectful dialogue in the Q Booth off topic thread. She’s a great example of how anti-q people can engage in dialogue with Q people without things coming to blows or things blowing up. A mutually interested understanding of how different people view the world without having to judge people for thinking differently.

PS Aragorn, your ignore list will be a most welcome retreat from your infantile mischaracterisations. Thankyou :)

PPS I’ve read your comments on the One Truth forum:

https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/11414-What-Motivates-Bill-Ryan-of-Project-Avalon-Community-Forum/page31

I find your remarks lack much integrity.

[KiwiElf]

PS Aragorn, your ignore list will be a most welcome retreat from your infantile mischaracterisations. Thankyou :)

PPS I’ve read your comments on the One Truth forum:

https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/11414-What-Motivates-Bill-Ryan-of-Project-Avalon-Community-Forum/page31

I find your remarks lack much integrity.

Fascinating! Especially the opening page of that thread - Post #6 in particular.

Bill & the Mods should read it too!

https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/11414-What-Motivates-Bill-Ryan-of-Project-Avalon-Community-Forum

[Astute]

Until now I have stayed out of the ongoing controversy regarding Q material. I have read a lot of what has been posted over recent weeks and I am aware of the division this material has caused. This division is not unique to Avalon. (I also don't post much!)

On an emotional level, one of the things I like about mathematics is the certainty it affords. It establishes a system, a framework, within which ideas can be tested and certainty can be determined.
Having taught it for over 20 years I am familiar with its use as a medium in training the mind 'how to think'. Maths is a closed system with a clearly defined framework (based on its axiomatic nature) and it is precisely because of this that there can be certainty.

Over the last few years, as I have begun to realise the world is not what I thought it was, I have had to change my mind many times about things I once held true. While it isn't an entirely pleasant experience at the time, it is worth the discomfort as the underlying desire of finding truth is too strong to be ignored.

David Icke was probably the first person I read who 'connected the dots' in a much more global way and he painted a better picture of the world around me, one that made more sense. I don't agree with all his conclusions nor do I see the world as he sees it but his version of the world is a lot more complete than anything I had seen before.

I chose David Icke as an example, of many, as he freely admits to connecting the dots. My own experience is one of trying to construct pictures, narratives, based on the information I have to hand in order to make 'sense' of things. I suspect we all do it. The reason why I don't always agree with him is because, like me, he is not working in a closed system where all the information is available.
His picture of the world, formed from the information he has is different to mine. One could argue that we are not working on exactly the same information but even it is was based on entirely the same data set of information I think we would have different pictures as neither of us has ALL the information.
The point I am trying to make here is that I suspect we all form 'narratives' or 'pictures' based on the information we have. My own experience is now one of having to regularly challenge such narratives.

I have linked to a webpage (https://www.artofplay.com/blogs/articles/fun-with-ambiguous-images) showing wonderful visual examples of what I am trying to say, which illustrates how our minds/ senses can interpret exactly the same thing in different ways.

So what does this have to do with the Q controversy? I have not gone off topic. The simple point is this: Q material is a collection of data points. The problem for me is not the data points themselves but rather what I do with them.
Q, to my mind, is not posting any narrative although many commentators on Q turn it into a narrative and this is where the problems arise. 'Q said this and therefore...' is the nub of the problem. For me any treatment of this information other than individual data points leads to problems.
This in no ways validates Q or diminishes Q. I have no way on knowing, nor care, what motivations there may be behind Q posting. If I find the information useful I stick it in a mental file of useful information. If I try to do anything further with it then I can see problems arising.

[Constance]

Hey everyone :waving:

Mod hat on here.

I'm really sensing the heat here in these dialogues and so I would like to kindly ask if we could please honour each other and lower the temperature of our conversations. Please be civil. Please be kind. Thank you. It is greatly appreciated.



:bowing:

:focus:

[Frank V]

PS Aragorn, your ignore list will be a most welcome retreat from your infantile mischaracterisations. Thankyou :)

PPS I’ve read your comments on the One Truth forum:

https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/11414-What-Motivates-Bill-Ryan-of-Project-Avalon-Community-Forum/page31

I find your remarks lack much integrity.

Fascinating! Especially the opening page of that thread - Post #6 in particular.

Maybe Bill & the Mods should read it too!

https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/11414-What-Motivates-Bill-Ryan-of-Project-Avalon-Community-Forum

Nice attempt at gaslighting, but that post dates back to 2017, and not only have my opinions of Bill radically changed in the meantime, but I have also already abundantly apologized to Bill (and also to several other staff members here) for not only having misunderstood Bill, but also for having spoken such ill about him.

I am still deeply ashamed of my own thoughts and words at the time, but my honor compels me to acknowledge my blunders, no matter how grave they are. I don't care whether you two would doubt or question my honor or my integrity, because you both obviously understand neither the word "honor" nor the word "integrity". For that matter, from having watched the two of you in action from the sidelines, I think you probably don't even understand the meaning of the word "shame".

In my defense, after I had been banned from Project Avalon ─ and by Bill himself ─ and arrived at The One Truth, where lots of former Project Avalon members were dwelling who had all either left Project Avalon voluntarily or had been banned, there was a wave of Bill-bashing going on there, and it was all too easy to allow oneself to get drawn into it and ride that wave.

But it was wrong, it was puerile, and I shouldn't have done that. Yet, I cannot go back and change history. I can also not start deleting those posts, because of two reasons. The first reason is that I want to own up to my mistakes, as bad as they were. I don't like sweeping something under the rug and then pretending that it never happened. I made mistakes, and I want to acknowledge the fact that I've made them. The second reason is more out of pragmatism, namely that deleting or voiding posts often breaks the continuity of a thread, unless the posts to be deleted were completely off-topic for the thread in question.

Like I said, I have apologized to Bill for my behavior back then ─ behavior that I am now genuinely ashamed of ─ and I'm pretty sure that Bill has forgiven me for those transgressions.

On the other hand, I'm not too blind to see what you're trying to do here, and once again this emphasizes the cultish truth behind you self-proclaimed QAnon "researchers". It's a phenomenon known as mobbing. One of you is being an arrogant ass and attacking me ─ or in this case, the forum I'm the administrator of, although he had already insulted me personally earlier on, the first time that I crossed his path ─ and given that I've got that person on my ignore list now, another one now chimes in. The one whom I put on my ignore lists knows that I won't be seeing what he wrote to me in reply behind my back ─ which is cowardice ─ and then his tag-team buddy quotes him as part of the effort to add injury to insult.

Typical cult behavior, and all because you're under the spell of The Precious. Like I said, with everything you guys say or do in your denial of the addiction, you're only confirming the analysis of the addiction more and more. Cultish, brainwashed, addicted, and hostile toward anyone who doesn't share your lust for The Precious.

In fact ─ and this is something I had already noticed the first time I crossed paths with you people ─ you are so combative that you don't even take out the time to contemplate my words. You're all full of adrenaline and ready to brutally pounce on anyone you even remotely perceive as not being on your side, within seconds, and without a shred of remorse. What's next? Lynch mobs in the streets?

Anyway, as you wish, KiwiElf, you may now join Jayke on the same ignore list. And anyone else who feels like gaslighthing or trolling me, or attempt to sway the staff members here against me, may join these two jokers on the same ignore list. I have had to endure too many bullies in my life to still have any tolerance left for them.

Sayonara.

[KiwiElf]

Your duplicity, agenda & hypocrisy is noted Aragorn.

"Sayonara"

[Jayke]

In my defense, after I had been banned from Project Avalon ─ and by Bill himself ─ and arrived at The One Truth, where lots of former Project Avalon members were dwelling who had all either left Project Avalon voluntarily or had been banned, there was a wave of Bill-bashing going on there, and it was all too easy to allow oneself to get drawn into it and ride that wave.

But it was wrong, it was puerile, and I shouldn't have done that. Yet, I cannot go back and change history. I can also not start deleting those posts, because of two reasons. The first reason is that I want to own up to my mistakes, as bad as they were. I don't like sweeping something under the rug and then pretending that it never happened. I made mistakes, and I want to acknowledge the fact that I've made them. The second reason is more out of pragmatism, namely that deleting or voiding posts often breaks the continuity of a thread, unless the posts to be deleted were completely off-topic for the thread in question.

Like I said, I have apologized to Bill for my behavior back then ─ behavior that I am now genuinely ashamed of ─ and I'm pretty sure that Bill has forgiven me for those transgressions.


I respect you taking ownership of your mischaracterisations Aragorn!

Another book summary from Robert Steeles bibliography in ‘On Intelligence’:




Kuhn, Thomas S., The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (University of Chicago, 1970).

...Two points are worthy of emphasis: 1) the paradigm shift is always forced and 2) until the paradigm shift occurs, always suddenly, the incumbents can comfortably explain everything with their existing paradigm.

You changed your paradigm about Bill once in the past. Maybe sometime in the future you’ll see your mischaracterisations of me are also operating from a prejudiced paradigm. I’m quite happy to be wrong if the Truth reveals your paradigm to be correct Aragorn. Until then, I’ll continue my research regardless of how much hypocritical gaslighting, mudslinging and namecalling I have to endure from those who complain about being bullied :facepalm:

[KiwiElf]

Be VERY careful, Aragorn.

My finger is hovering over "submit post" of two questionable infographics - perhaps quite defamatory - which appeared on a Q Research Board recently, manufactured by TOT members under your supervision, targeting Bill & Project Avalon.

Contrary to your deluded claims, we "Qultists" do our research.

Would you like me to post them along with the link?

[Gemma13]

Two interesting articles. I'll just link them, not copy them. They're very dismissive of many things, of course, and have a very mainstream view. They talk about 'conspiracy theories', which usually makes me stop reading immediately.

But the personal stories in there are probably true.

~~~


People Tell Us How QAnon Destroyed Their Relationships
https://vice.com/en_ca/article/xwnjx4/people-tell-us-how-qanon-destroyed-their-relationships



Christmas Is the Loneliest Time for Qanon Fans
The Daily Beast spoke to four Q believers who claim to have been isolated from loved ones, as well as a former Q believer who thinks the isolation helps reinforce QAnon support.
https://thedailybeast.com/christmas-is-the-loneliest-time-for-qanon-fans

This is indirectly connected with the thread topic. The same can be said of UFO nuts, of course, but almost everything else in the alternative community is rather less strident, obsessive and potentially divisive — maybe with the exception of the Corey Goode cult, and the Flat Earthers (also a kind of cult, though without a leader or any 'trust-the-plan' promises).

The commonality, of course, is that under heavy criticism, the believers form a self-justifying, mutually protective plalanx, and dialog becomes more and more impossible. That's what the articles are about.

Thanks for the links Bill. I feel sorry for those having to endure this fanatical extremism from their loved ones.

And of course, as you noted, this extreme fanaticism isn’t isolated to Q. We have and do witness it daily. From religion, to Ufology, to conspiracy theories, to safe spaces, to politics, to doomsayers, to immunisations, to global warming, to predictions, to ………

The links gave me a greater insight into the fear some members here have of Q followers.

But I’m just not seeing validation of those fears for Avalon members as they’re pretty much happy staying in their own corner while the jury is still out for conclusive statements re Q. They’re not running around on other thread topics saying “but Q said this and Q said that”.

[Constance]

Be VERY careful, Aragorn.

My finger is hovering over "submit post" of two questionable infographics - perhaps quite defamatory - which appeared on a Q Research Board recently, manufactured by TOT members under your supervision, targeting Bill & Project Avalon.

Contrary to your deluded claims, we "Qultists" do our research.

Would you like me to post them along with the link?

KiwiElf, Aragorn has said that he has blocked you in post # 65. He cannot see your posts.

[KiwiElf]

Possibly Constance, but it would be wise if Bill and the Mods paid heed to my post #62 (above).

"Things are not what they seem"

Best

Kiwi

[Frank V]

Be VERY careful, Aragorn.

My finger is hovering over "submit post" of two questionable infographics - perhaps quite defamatory - which appeared on a Q Research Board recently, manufactured by TOT members under your supervision, targeting Bill & Project Avalon.

Contrary to your deluded claims, we "Qultists" do our research.

Would you like me to post them along with the link?

KiwiElf, Aragorn has said that he has blocked you in post # 65. He cannot see your posts.

I will address the allegation, Constance. Here's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ─ and KiwiElf had better prepare himself for a shocker.

Over at The One Truth, we have a (now dysfunctional) community group called Watchdog Task Force. This community group was operational until our former super moderator bsbray ─ formerly known here at Project Avalon under the same name, but then after the 2016 US presidential elections under the name A Voice from the Mountains ─ stepped down from the mod room and then left the forum 48 hours later.

The group hasn't seen any traffic anymore since bsbray left The One Truth on the 3rd of November 2016, with the exception of one thread, comprised of only two posts, in which I announced to the other group members that bsbray had left the forum, and in what way. Unfortunate circumstances at the forum in the next couple of days necessitated that I would later on post the same explanation of how bsbray left ─ and the two threats he made on the night he left ─ on a members-only announcement thread, which was posted as a one-time force-read for all members upon login for a period of (I believe) two weeks.

Even though all staff members were members of that community group ─ mainly for administrative purposes ─ the group was also comprised of a couple of regular members, all of whom were invited by the staff, and the driving force behind the group was bsbray. The group's purpose was to examine the evidence (if any) behind the claims of alternative community personalities, such as Simon Parkes, Corey Goode, David Wilcock, Laura Eisenhower, and so on. And yes, Bill Ryan was also on the group's watch list, although Bill was the last subject to be added to that list.

But believe it or not, bsbray (A Voice from the Mountains) wanted to personally bring down Bill, but without jeopardizing his membership here at Project Avalon. Given that I was the administrator of a then still perceived "competing" forum to Project Avalon and that I was banned from here, I told bsbray that if push came to shove and he wanted to publish that stuff on the open forum, then all he had to do was pass that stuff onto me, write up the post, and I would post it on the forum under my own name, as if I had been the one who had written it all. In spite of his three earlier psychotic outbursts toward myself in the mod room, I was still willing to take the fall for him. And the use of infographs was also not only bsbray's idea, but he was also the one who drew them up. I didn't have anything to do with that, and neither did any of the other members of the group.

Either way, it never happened, because then bsbray suddenly became brainwashed with Trump mania, which then culminated in him stepping down as a staff member first and then leaving the forum two days later. I have just checked the Watchdog Task Force group, and there are no infographs about Bill Ryan in there, although there was a text version of a draft ─ completely typed up by bsbray himself ─ with what he called "Bill Ryan's track record", as well as a separate group thread about people whom Bill had interviewed over the years.

And that's all there is to it. I do believe to have seen a draft of an infograph on Bill and/or Project Avalon which bsbray either sent to me via email or that he had hosted at some venue on the web and that he shared the link with me to in a PM. But insofar as I remember, this was only a rough draft, and I repeat that bsbray was the one who had created it, and who intended to use it.

Furthermore, I will also reveal that bsbray had doctored a couple of photos of leprechaun statues for the garden with Bill's face (and hat) on them, and that he even sent them to Christine Anderson. But Christine distanced herself from bsbray as she found him two-faced. Which, indeed, he is. After all, he wanted to bring down Bill and Project Avalon, but without jeopardizing his membership here, and then after he left The One Truth ─ because we were "soooo liberal, ewwww!" ─ he started badmouthing us over here, and sending incredibly insulting private messages to one of our staff members whom he was still in contact with over Skype. I have seen those messages ─ the insults were primarily directed at myself, and in a lesser degree also at Malc, and they were all of a sexual nature ─ and that's when I decided to convert the status of his account at The One Truth from retired to banned.

So there's your hero A Voice from the Mountains for you QAnon fans: a two-faced psychotic guy who wanted to bring down Project Avalon and Bill, but without wanting to take the fall for it.

[Ratszinger]

None of this side show was known to me and had absolutely nothing with why I pay attention to Q. While I admit there is a likely obsession with the phenom it appears to me that it's mostly right leaning which can range from extreme right winger to just over the line. And then of course there the neutral crowds that just hate the current players on the left but not the left itself so much as the cartel they see involved in the last few elections. (okay more than a few) But the point is these crowds mentioned above all like the idea of the left criminal cartel getting it's a$$ handed to it. They either hate the democratic party as a general enemy or they see the current leadership as the enemy as stated. So seeing them struggle or even fantasizing about it can offer relief. It's no different than reading a good book that builds tension, has a protagonist and an antagonist, a plot or narrative, the entire suspense of it all with the over the top drama. It's a great thing to think that this pirate group of thugs including Obama will be defeated and shamed in public to these people.

Are they going to fall apart if none of it happens? No not likely. They'll move on like they have numerous other times because Bigfoot or UFO's or paranormal, or some other conspiracy involving any or all of that and more is right around the corner. Q is lumped in there with the rest of the obsessive stuff on the net that hooks people. My sisters are so hooked on FB games I can hardly have a chat with them you know? Lets talk about that addiction as it's far more prevalent than Q as these games have been around since facebook began.

[DeDukshyn]

Be VERY careful, Aragorn.

My finger is hovering over "submit post" of two questionable infographics - perhaps quite defamatory - which appeared on a Q Research Board recently, manufactured by TOT members under your supervision, targeting Bill & Project Avalon.

Contrary to your deluded claims, we "Qultists" do our research.

Would you like me to post them along with the link?

Was that a veiled threat? Oh wait ... that wasn't veiled at all (and for what motivation? What leverage did you hope to gain with that?) :) ... KiwiElf ... you're not Trump - stop acting like him - Trump's just an idiot and I don't want to have to think that way of you. :)

[Frank V]

[...] It's no different than reading a good book that builds tension, has a protagonist and an antagonist, a plot or narrative, the entire suspense of it all with the over the top drama. [...]

Exactly! And this is what I was referring to earlier as the thesis and the antithesis. The real Hegelian dialectic states that out of thesis and antithesis, synthesis will be born. And the idea, then, is that the synthesis will be bigger than the sum of its parts.

If we want to continue calling ourselves an alternative community, then we will have to first and foremost become alternative, and seek the synthesis, rather than align ourselves with either the thesis or the antithesis. And it all starts with us. Or as Mahatma Gandhi said, "You must become the change you wish to see in the world."

By the way, a political candidate representing this synthesis does exist in the USA, albeit that the mainstream media are not paying much attention to her, and it'll remain yet to be seen whether the Democratic Party will even allow her to run for the White House, given that she aims to do away with the status quo and the dog & pony show. Her name is Marianne Williamson, and she is a prolific author, as well as a very spiritually inclined person.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JA6gYXEdwY

[AutumnW]

Marianne Williamson won't capture the attention she deserves for many reasons. She will be ignored by mainstream media for obvious reasons. She will be ignored by the alt right as they are enthralled with Trump. She will be ignored by the alt left, because they have roots in humanism and atheism.

If we listen to that little voice inside of ourselves that yearns for the truly miraculous, we'll hear it whispering, "Marianne Williamson"

[edina]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the reason the Q material and the Q thread here at Avalon, continues to be so popular, even after it was removed from public view, is because people continue to find the information of value?

Occam's Razor.

Love Marianne Williamson by the way. Wish her all the best.

I've been through A Course in Miracles 3x. :)

[DeDukshyn]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the reason the Q material and the Q thread here at Avalon, continues to be so popular, even after it was removed from public view, is because people continue to find the information of value?

Occam's Razor.

Love Marianne Williamson by the way. Wish her all the best.

I've been through A Course in Miracles 3x. :)

Maybe ... but the poll somewhat suggested that the group isn't as large as it seems - its just a bit noisier.

What value are people finding, I wonder ... and I also wonder, if perhaps, "entertainment", "addiction", etc. might be often disguised as "value", similarly as we as humans very often disguise fear as "practicality".

I tried to understand a meaningful value in the Q material but I don't see it much ... perhaps someone could explain the value of Q. Does a larger, and more aligned audience make Q more efficient at fixing all the worlds issues?

[Matthew]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the reason the Q material and the Q thread here at Avalon, continues to be so popular, even after it was removed from public view, is because people continue to find the information of value?...

Yes, arguably the drops act as a way to spread awareness of topics like child abuse. At the same time, with that being true on one side there's also people who doubt Q's questionable origins, and then discount everything Q has said. It happened here on this forum very recently (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104156-QAnon-An-Opposing-Viewpoint-LARP-Psyop-Cult-or-Something-Even-More-Sinister&p=1306775&viewfull=1#post1306775) is a link to the my response to this, the post in question that demonstrates my point is the post before it). So the jury is out for me atm

[Gaia]

A lot of social psychologists have measured schizophrenia/schizotypal scores against other measurements of conspiratorial ideation and there's some correlation but not that strong. Conspiracism is sort of a trap though as it is self reinforcing for a number of reasons. Once you redpill yourself, it's very hard to pull yourself out. Many of researchers talk about how conspiracism is monological (as in no dialogue). Everything gets organized to fit within a non falsifiable conspiracy. Some researchers use the term degenerate research; meaning people start to actively look for sources to confirm their own biases.

I don't personally think it's fair to assume that these people have biological/chemical reasons for what we perceive as a mass hysteria. (Though I've had similar thoughts to yours about autoimmune issues/inflammation etc.) I think it's definitely a structural/systemic combination of complex factors, including the modern internet, social change, technological change and shifting political trends that are making people behave strangely/horribly from our perspective. Keep in mind too that a lot of these beliefs were probably OK back when a lot of these baby boomers were growing up. The rules have changed under their feet and they don't know what to do.

Conspiracy theories like QAnon are “self-sealing” meaning that evidence against them can become evidence of their validity in the minds of believers, according to Stephan Lewandowsky, a professor at the University of Bristol who studies conspiracy theories and conspiracists. Trying to disprove a conspiracy theory thus usually only serves to reinforce it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Lewandowsky

Even debunking QAnon makes it stronger. From this Vox piece a while ago: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/1/17253444/qanon-trump-conspiracy-theory-reddit

[Kryztian]

Jayke, I took a few days off from the Q threads and focused on the lighter stuff here on Avalon, like the "You must laugh at least once a day (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?74551-You-must-laugh-at-least-once-a-day)" thread (highly recommended). Only to discover this little pearl of irony:



Kryztian mentioned earlier that I portray the Q followers as victims. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve never seen us as victims. I’ve said we’ve come under hostile assaults from people lobbing their projections onto the movement, trying to pigeon hole us into their personal label or definition of how they imagine things to be.

Thanks, that was better than any laughing yoga session ever anywhere! :clapping:
Looking for more stand up comedy when you get back. :ROFL::rofl::rockon:

[ClearWater]

Jayke, I took a few days off from the Q threads and focused on the lighter stuff here on Avalon, like the "You must laugh at least once a day (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?74551-You-must-laugh-at-least-once-a-day)" thread (highly recommended). Only to discover this little pearl of irony:



Kryztian mentioned earlier that I portray the Q followers as victims. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve never seen us as victims. I’ve said we’ve come under hostile assaults from people lobbing their projections onto the movement, trying to pigeon hole us into their personal label or definition of how they imagine things to be.

Thanks, that was better than any laughing yoga session ever anywhere! :clapping:
Looking for more stand up comedy when you get back. :ROFL::rofl::rockon:

Yes, I quite enjoy that thread also. Laughter and the ability to not take things too seriously are fantastic. :bigsmile:

I typically don't speak on behalf of others, but seeing as Jayke is unable to respond temporarily, I'll just point out that it's very possible for a person to feel that they're being attacked, and simultaneously NOT feel like a victim.

[mountain_jim]

Jayke, I took a few days off from the Q threads and focused on the lighter stuff here on Avalon, like the "You must laugh at least once a day (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?74551-You-must-laugh-at-least-once-a-day)" thread (highly recommended). Only to discover this little pearl of irony:



Kryztian mentioned earlier that I portray the Q followers as victims. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve never seen us as victims. I’ve said we’ve come under hostile assaults from people lobbing their projections onto the movement, trying to pigeon hole us into their personal label or definition of how they imagine things to be.

Thanks, that was better than any laughing yoga session ever anywhere! :clapping:
Looking for more stand up comedy when you get back. :ROFL::rofl::rockon:

To me this looks like a craftily-presented put-down of a member (who provided much excellent pushback content to the thesis of this thread in my view) - and this while the member is unable to respond due to being under temporary suspension for letting other similar needles get under the skin.

[DeDukshyn]

Jayke, I took a few days off from the Q threads and focused on the lighter stuff here on Avalon, like the "You must laugh at least once a day (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?74551-You-must-laugh-at-least-once-a-day)" thread (highly recommended). Only to discover this little pearl of irony:



Kryztian mentioned earlier that I portray the Q followers as victims. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve never seen us as victims. I’ve said we’ve come under hostile assaults from people lobbing their projections onto the movement, trying to pigeon hole us into their personal label or definition of how they imagine things to be.

Thanks, that was better than any laughing yoga session ever anywhere! :clapping:
Looking for more stand up comedy when you get back. :ROFL::rofl::rockon:

To me this looks like a craftily-presented put-down of a member (who provided much excellent pushback content to the thesis of this thread in my view) - and this while the member is unable to respond due to being under temporary suspension for letting other similar needles get under the skin.

To me it appeared that Kyztian was just pointing out the humourous irony contained within that post - I noticed it too when I read Jayke's post and chuckled, but refrained from pointing it out.

95% of the problems in this realm are due to fallacies within communication ... quite often due to assumptions of intentions, rather than merely asking questions.


Kryztian, was that a craftily presented "put-down?" - because it could be taken that way, and while I don't think clarification was desired at all, perhaps you could voluntarily provide some clarity on your intent with that post??

[Kryztian]

Kryztian, was that a craftily presented "put-down?" - because it could be taken that way, and while I don't think clarification was desired at all, perhaps you could voluntarily provide some clarity on your intent with that post??

Perhaps I should have just said less in my post and let Jakye do all the talking. Just wanted to highlight how in a mere four sentences he completely contradicted himself. If he did so intentionally or not, it gave me a much need laugh. Glad to know you got a chuckle too DeDukshyn.

[Chester]

I don't know, Bill, what got into you?... sometime after I took almost two years off? Since my return, I have come upon all sorts of posts and quite often, new threads that you have authored that really dig in deep. This thread and your opening post are a perfect example. I will now shift my attention towards the writing of my post.

I once came up with a "solution" to addiction... one I applied for some years. "The solution to addiction is - Become addicted to everything! That way, you won't be as easily consumed by one of them because you are spreading yourself out. And that is how you can avoid the danger of addiction."

Eventually I abandoned the advice when it became clear it wasn't solving anything. "Duh."

OK, so then what? I eliminated activities that fed addictions that clearly harmed others and myself. This means the big ones, the obvious ones. A recent collapse of a two year project, though the impact is financially difficult (and will be for years, perhaps the rest of this life), has provided me the opportunity to step back from the arena within which my last 30 years of "work" has been involved - an industry disguised as entertainment (sports betting) but is parasitical and, of course, exploits the vulnerable and their capacity for addiction albeit "regulated" by government agencies whereby regulations are designed to mitigate that aspect... (or at least that's how "regulation" is advertised).

Due to my 'devolvement' I was faced with the reality that it isn't only the casino customer (in this case, the sports bettor) that faced the challenge of "gambling responsibly" (as it is sold), but when you are an owner of a sports book, you have a bet on all sorts of events albeit with much better odds than the customers. Still, though... you are gambling. My primary function, once the project opened, was as the odds maker / odds manager. When I withdrew from the project, the requirement I accept a significant financial loss was disturbing, yes. But what emerged far more difficult to deal with psychologically was, the loss of the "action" I had experienced 10 to 12 hours or so a day. Clearly, the physiological elements suggested in the OP as well as all the psychological elements were all present.

And so what did I do? I am 62... understand. Am I going to have a real chance at striving to rewire what I have built over the course of my life so easily? So what did I do?

I came out of retirement at The One Truth and started participating in that forum (I believe this was May, 2019). Within a few months, circumstances set the table for my return to this forum.

One thing I need to insert - Just after I went back to TOT, I somehow came upon a post by onawah... a post I have tried to find again but haven't succeeded so far. The post was about onawah describing why she was taking leave of the forum. Of all the posts I have ever read on this forum, for me, this post was (and still is) my own personal number one post. FOUND IT! (funny how that happens as I tried many times in the past to locate this post and in seconds I find it today) -

Here it is - http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107445-A-very-important-announcement&p=1297909&viewfull=1#post1297909

She says a lot - a lot that, for me, really hit home. And I bring it up because the things she wrote in this post so very much applied to me and so very much said what I had been avoiding (but knowing) with regards to myself. But the line that hit me right between the eyes was her final line - "I just feel that I need to move into another phase of my life now and try to break out of this addictive cycle."

And so here I am... reading a great post by the forum founder, recalling (re-reading) onawah's post and seeing how they both overlap. And then I recall my former "solution" to addiction and see that I didn't exactly abandon it, I modified it. No... don't be addicted to everything, just some things, but also, be honest as to what I am, today, addicted to and see if I can be involved "responsibly."

See, even on forums there's that "uncertainty" factor. In fact, for me, especially in my early days, its relevant and significant. How many "Thanks" might a post get? Not just mine... others. What sort of responses might follow? What about when there's no "Thanks" and no one responds!? Sometimes that's the worst but also... sometimes it is relief because maybe my next post, if someone responds, might be that post that crosses the line that gets me called out, suspended or banned. Or maybe, I start a thread that three years later still gets posted on... aren't I cool?

And then the friendships that emerged. Well, I always wanted them to be friendships just like friends that became loved ones in my daily life outside these forums and other social media worlds. But my experience has been the same as that which onawah reflected save for one who has moved on from forum life, still... one. So there can be exceptions.

Yes, my post is rambly too. Yes, as Bill has told me, I sometimes post for the purpose of processing.

So how does this relate to Q? This was, in fact, the reason I wrote this post... specifically Q. So many of the reasons I feel compelled to explore this Q thing are the same reasons I find myself interested in other subject areas featured in this very forum. I mean... look at the Horus-Ra thread. Uncertainty is completely interspersed throughout the broad subject area of that thread. Is it demons, is it aliens, is it a conspiracy of humans working as a cabal, is it a combination, is it all three? Are they going to get me? Is there really a Satan? Is Satan and Lucifer the same thing? Is it the Demiurge? Are they all three the same thing? Is the god of Christianity the Demiurge? Is there a good God somewhere? Is there no God? Is God just consciousness and thus "not out there?" Is religion "mind control?" Some, yes, some, no? All? Is Monsanto in on it? Is the "vax" cabal trying to kill us? Or at least make us a lesser human species to further the separation between type 1 humans and the rest of us type 2 humans (like me)? Of course, I can go on and on and on...

At the heart of all this is uncertainty. At the heart of my addictions... all of them is this uncertainty. When I get deep into the philosophy of life and ask the question, why life? Why live? What is the purpose? Is there any meaning to life?

My answers have become this -

Question - What is the purpose of life? Answer - To live.

Question - What is life? Answer - an unbroken, continuous observation of and participation in contrast as experienced by both 'self aware' and 'not self aware' individualized expressions of something... a something that appears to me to be fundamentally consciousness.

Question - Is there meaning to life? Answer - I cannot know from the point of view of consciousness itself, if it can even have a POV, but if so, I would hope so. And I cannot answer for another conscious agent. I can answer for myself but this answer is true only at this moment. My answer is, Yes. I seek meaning and the experience of meaning all the time.

Question - What do you think, Sam, is at the heart of your experience of meaningful moments? Answer - For me, the degree of profundity of that which I experience as meaningful seems to have everything to do with the uncertainty of its arising such that when it does, there is an experience of fulfillment that extends to the depths of my being and electrifies me to the core of my soul and, I hope... I sense, beyond.

So I ask, what would life be without uncertainty? Boring? That would be my answer. So what might be the fuel of the life force? A desire to experience that which we are never certain about? Seems so to me.

And so Q is (for me) a puzzle and the outcome of it all is a big mystery. I see that for some it is a fun one, an entertaining one, an addictive one - just like life itself. Betting on whether the #2 NFL defense of the 49ers can hold off that powerful offense of the Kansas City Chiefs and score enough to win in the upcoming Super Bowl is a mystery. Studying all the factors and coming up with a side to bet on is a puzzle. The outcome is uncertain. Life is uncertain. Are we addicted to life? If so, is that bad? Good? Necessary? At least necessary for its continuation?

What goes on in the heart and mind of the being in the midst of a dark night of the soul?

[Bill Ryan]

I don't know, Bill, what got into you?I think it's one fractal of a larger issue — that a LOT of stuff in the so-called alt media is addictive in one way or another.

That's not always damaging (like people following sporting teams: I'm 'addicted' to keeping up with cricket test match scores :bigsmile: ) — but it is damaging when friendships start becoming fractured.

That's what started to happen here on Avalon with the Qanon material. It cost quite a few genuine friendships. I lost friends, too, despite sitting firmly on my hands for a very great deal of the time while all this material was being discussed.

No way is the destruction of good friendships a price worth paying simply to keep up with bits and pieces of seductive information. (And often, if the truth be told, being entertained by and becoming passionate about what's being presented on stage, like members of an audience watching a drama.)

I've said this many times: the fractures that have taken place would and could NEVER have happened if we'd all been in the same room as one another, drinking coffee (or beer) in real time, and listening carefully to what we all had to say. There would have been a ton of hugs and humor and good feeling.

On the internet, behind the anonymity of usernames and avatars, polarization happens in the blink of an eye. It's dangerous.

[Chester]

Yes, and that was at the heart of onawah's post. I would add that in the environment of today, here in the US, it is extremely rare (unless there's a financial benefit at stake) that you find all being in the same room as one another, drinking coffee (or beer) in real time, and listening carefully to what all have to say. There are no hugs and there's no humor as no one gets together here (in the US) anymore. Not to discuss things that are truly important. I am seriously considering moving. But the picture you painted, Bill, isn't found these days in the US. It's more my opinion that this is why the Q threads became what they did. Spillover.

People who wished they could all be in the same room but no longer could so they tried to have the conversations on social media (Project Avalon being one form of such).

I live here. I am kind and I used to be sociable until it became impossible here. At least I recognized that surrounding myself with folks I think "think" like me isn't fulfilling in any way... so I am all but isolated. The good news (for me) is I am married to a woman from Medellin who doesn't give a flip about US politics and all the fallout from it. Her view is jaded anyways. Her opinion has been for years, "The government, the politicians, the business owners and the mafias are all the same thing."

But there's few 'happy get togethers' with coffee or beer between those who have sunk into polarizations and most have. And for the folks here who don't give a hoot either way, they are consumed by an addiction or two and/or watch Netflix, browse shopping websites or spend time on dating apps which, if "dates" are achieved, most often result in meaningless hookups where conversations of depth, if they occur, reveal differences used as excuses to move on... its far more attractive to avoid feelings than to experience confrontations.

My international friends tell me its much the same where they live too... most of mine being "westerners."

[Bill Ryan]

There are no hugs and there's no humor as no one gets together here anymore. Sammy, I truly understand. But actually, I really don't think that's true. It all depends what threads we visit and what stories we follow. Those can be habits, too.

See this, from Ernie late last night — and all the replies so far: :flower:


Please send healing and prayers to my wife, Veldean.

She is in the hospital on life support.

She collapsed this morning and was rushed to intensive care.

Although she has been sick for many months, with no prognosis after multiple tests and specialists, it is still a very big shock.

I do not know what I'd do without my Valdi girl.

:heart:

Also see the thread supporting Hervé, a friend of us all, who was seriously ill in hospital (now back at home with a nurse visiting him every day). A whole bunch of members swung into action to track him down and make personal contact when he went missing. There's a fund for his benefit which now tops $1100, way more than we'd ever dreamed.


Our friend Hervé is seriously ill in hospital (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109443-Our-friend-Herv---is-seriously-ill-in-hospital)

There are high quality threads on gardening, wildlife, remarkable spiritual experiences, meditation, classical music, beautiful imagery, every aspect of the wonderful and varied human condition. It's all right here.

No-one has to get into fights about Qanon, 9/11, gun control, Trump, Brexit, or anything else. It's a huge buffet of different choices. Anyone can pile their plate high with whatever they like. :)

[Chester]

There are no hugs and there's no humor as no one gets together here anymore. Sammy, I truly understand. But actually, I really don't think that's true. It all depends what threads we visit and what stories we follow. Those can be habits, too.


My failure in not being clearer... I was speaking of here in the US (I will edit the post).

[Bill Ryan]

There are no hugs and there's no humor as no one gets together here anymore. Sammy, I truly understand. But actually, I really don't think that's true. It all depends what threads we visit and what stories we follow. Those can be habits, too.


My failure in not being clearer... I was speaking of here in the US (I will edit the post).

Got it. :heart: :highfive:

Sammy has just made a very generous donation to Hervé's fund (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109450-Donations-for-a-tablet-for-Herv--). I truly appreciate that. Sammy, I'll be sending you an email today. There are some things I'd love to share with you.

:focus:

[Ratszinger]

The same mechanism of addiction was evident in shows like, "The Walking Dead" which my wife would watch and demand silence during because heaven forbid you make her miss something! Listen they know this! Movements can't start without this mechanism and they can't start a movement without the mass hypnosis tools like TV and mass media to guide and direct the conscious desires of joe public and so forth forth for society. Once they have them programmed to react to the things they use to stimulate them via those tools at their disposal then they can repeat it at will! At this point they have them and they have them hook line and sinker as they say!

[Chester]

So i see that the Q 'followers' are becoming the scapegoats.

First shadowbanned(out of public side),then ridiculed,and now they are framed as silly junkies.. It looks to me that the most 'addicted' Avalon members projecting their frustrations ,and get a dopamine thrill from feeling superior. Next step is to identify the mentally weak members who could be potential 'cultfollowing suiciders'. Isnt it better to stimulate to stay focused on the research then to be distracted by this insulting generalizing pseudo analysis ? I assumed that Avalon is here as well to wake up & inspire the 'normal' people (;redpill the 'normies') ,to start their own search for the truth. But to me thats the essence of the Qmovement as well! How to learn to think for oneself!

A happy person has no interest in critizicing others,she just want to inspire and encourage each & everyone to trust their path. We are all divine beings:heart:

Yes, I look at the Qthing critically. I have experienced the brunt of insinuation just because I do so.

After Simon Parkes, Corey Goode and Shane the Ruiner... and after chasing down rabbit holes (likely dead ends) just because of synchronicity experiences, I not only question everything... and continue to do so, but I more and more value when others allow me the ability to explore for myself what may be true, make up my own mind (and change it when new data suggests I should) without censorship.

Look at COVID-19 right now as a perfect example of when an authority censors information.

It is inarguable that China's original silence on the matter and barring external access to information (and the virus) by the world medical experts has created, by some estimates, a global problem 1000% greater (just saw 2000% mentioned) than if they had come clean, been transparent and allowed help from the US CDC and other expert organizations around the globe to get to the outbreak and do their thing.

Add to that their draconian actions related to outbreaks of the truth by brave individuals through social media in China who later died or disappeared and censorship is clearly a losing strategy at all levels of its implementation.

ADDED: January 3, 2020, China issued a "gag order" on all hospitals and medical personnel.

On January 14, 2020 China to the corrupt "W.H.O. organization" that the virus was not transmittable "human to human" yet we know it clearly is. It is impossible to think this information was "believed."

Read this article for some in depth understanding as to W.H.O., China and WHO's director.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/u-s-funds-world-health-organization-that-boot-licks-china-with-deadly-results/