Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ? [Archive]

Clear Light

31st July 2019, 13:52

https://www.lionsroar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LR_logo.jpg

New study suggests meditating on emptiness might be better than mindfulness (https://www.lionsroar.com/new-study-suggests-meditating-on-emptiness-might-be-better-than-mindfulness/)

by Haleigh Atwood (https://www.lionsroar.com/author/haleigh-atwood/) | March 29, 2019

In a recent study, meditating on emptiness led to a 24 percent decrease in negative emotions.

https://www.lionsroar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/22590361652_a9715533cc_o.jpg

Emptiness meditation may be more effective at improving wellbeing than mindfulness meditation, according to psychologists at the University of Derby, UK.

Led by psychologist and lecturer William Van Gordon, an international research team conducted the first-ever study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550830718302623) to investigate the impact of Buddhist emptiness meditation. A central Buddhist insight, emptiness (https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-emptiness/) is the understanding that neither we nor any phenomenon in the universe — sentient or otherwise — has a permanent, separate, and independent core, or soul.

“Mindfulness and other contemplative techniques are very useful for creating mental calm and space in which to explore the mind,” Van Gordon said. “But one has to go a step further and undermine the emptiness of self and the emptiness of all phenomena — that’s very consistent with the Buddhist teachings across most traditions.

“In the last few decades, we’ve seen a significant increase of scientific interest in investigating contemplative Buddhist approaches. This really started with a first phase of investigations concerning mindfulness about 20 or 30 years ago. About 10 or 15 years ago there was a second phase concerning compassion and loving kindness. What we’re seeing now is a third phase of investigation focusing on wisdom, emptiness, and non-attachment.”

In order to have a complete understanding of Buddhist techniques, Van Gordon believes science must cover all three phases: mindfulness, compassion, and emptiness. He wants to see an increasing focus on the relationship between emptiness and wellbeing.

The University of Derby study compared emptiness meditation to mindfulness meditation in a controlled condition with 25 participants, including Buddhist lay practitioners and monastics. To be considered for the study, participants were required to have a daily meditation practice that spanned an average of 25 years. Furthermore, Van Gordon and his team interviewed each potential candidate to explore their understanding of emptiness before inviting them to participate.

Participants engaged in a practice of emptiness meditation on their own time. The emptiness meditation consisted of an initial phase of concentrative meditation, followed by a phase of investigative meditation. This two-stage process involved searching for an existing self and examining the underlying nature of experience, and then transcending conceptual boundaries—such as space and time—in order to obtain a universal, farsighted outlook rooted in compassion. While experiencing emptiness, participants retained control over the duration and content of the meditation and awareness of their physical body and environment.

Within the same month, they also practiced a mindfulness meditation that didn’t involve any emptiness components. Before and after each meditation, participants filled in a series of psychometric tests, which were analyzed by the research team to compare the effectiveness of each meditation approach.

The results showed that—even though participants already demonstrated high levels of wellbeing and spiritual insight—meditating on emptiness led to a 24 percent reduction of negative emotions, 16 percent increase in compassionate feelings, and 10 percent reduction in attachment to themselves and their external experiences.

Findings also showed that participants experienced emptiness as an underlying fabric of the mind and reality. In other words, they felt that the nature of reality is not as concrete as people generally think.

While emptiness meditation was shown to be more effective than mindfulness for improving wisdom and wellbeing for these participants, Van Gordon says this needs to be tested on relatively inexperienced lay meditation practitioners. Van Gordon plans to conduct further studies on emptiness meditation to explore its impact on new meditators.

If further studies suggest that emptiness is a scientific truth of existence, says Van Gordon, then it may be necessary for scientists to reexamine how they interpret psychological and physical phenomena.

Clear Light

31st July 2019, 14:09

“Mindfulness and other contemplative techniques are very useful for creating mental calm and space in which to explore the mind,” Van Gordon said. “But one has to go a step further and undermine the emptiness of self and the emptiness of all phenomena — that’s very consistent with the Buddhist teachings across most traditions.

Well, I'm going to rephrase the highlighted text in two slightly different ways :

But one has to go a step further and ...

undermine the concreteness of self and the concreteness of all phenomena
reveal the emptiness of self and the emptiness of all phenomena

Because if this second step isn't taken I'd suggest you're still going to be (apparently) stuck at a superficial understanding of Buddhism and will have *not* penetrated deeper into its Actual Meaning eh ? ;)

onevoice

31st July 2019, 14:38

Well, I'm going to rephrase the highlighted text in two slightly different ways :

But one has to go a step further and ...

undermine the concreteness of self and the concreteness of all phenomena
reveal the emptiness of self and the emptiness of all phenomena

Because otherwise I'd suggest you're still apparently stuck at a superficial understanding of Buddhism and have *not* penetrated deeper into its Actual Meaning eh ? ;)

Excellent correction, Clear Light!

The "Mindfulness" style of meditation is useful to understand self better and to maintain balance/being grounded. This is because one is being mindful of oneself and is still attached to the concept of a self, which is actually an illusion created by each one of us.

However, if one's goal using meditation towards enlightenment to discover one's true nature (Buddha Nature in Buddhist lingo), then one needs a method that has the fewest reliance on one's conscious mind. My late master (Sheng Yen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheng-yen)), whose Dharma lineage can be traced directly back to the historical Buddha taught that the highest method of meditation is actually a method of no method. He calls this method "Silent Illumination." Using this method, one first gets to the point of having no scattered thoughts occurring in one's mind (the silent aspect of this method). Then one allows the awareness to grow. Whenever any scattered thought or sensation is perceived, one just let it go. One continues to just let all thoughts go until one's pure awareness grows and at some point one's true nature is revealed. This method is described in detail in his book, "The Method of No-Method: The Chan Practice of Silent Illumination (https://smile.amazon.com/Method-No-Method-Practice-Silent-Illumination/dp/1590305752/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=silent+illumination&qid=1564583657&s=books&sr=1-1)."

DeDukshyn

31st July 2019, 15:10

While mindful meditation, mantras, affirmations, etc have a specific place, the real gold of meditation is learning how to empty the mind of thoughts altogether, this clears unwanted static and fear from the subconscious. The subconscious mind is fed everything the conscious mind "perceives" and "judges" and "thinks" - the more clarity you can bring to your conscious mind, the better the 'food" you are feeding the subconscious mind.

So my own personal experiences have always seen distinct place for each style of meditation - each for different purposes and results.

Clear Light

31st July 2019, 16:03

Oh, not that I want to take any-thing away from the Profound Implications of Emptiness, nor to "make light" of it, but neverthless, for your Enjoyment ... ;)

https://www.lionsroar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/sipress-marcie-wide.jpg

Because, if in Reality, there is no such "thing" as a "self", then who / what is "it" that is seeking Enlightenment or Liberation eh ?

I'd say it sounds like a presently-arising-Delusion chasing after a non-existent-Illusion eh ? LOL :bigsmile:

Ron Mauer Sr

31st July 2019, 17:17

It may be best to not try to empty the mind. Let it happen naturally.
And spend focus time on things that are fun, things that feel good, past present and future.

Clear Light

31st July 2019, 18:55

Oh, I'd say it's just the way-of-the-world nowadays with so much seeming Distraction to keep us all Entertained not really having to confront any Existential Issues (which may bring up uncomfortable feelings / emotions / memories etc) that spending your Time and Energy looking INWARDLY probably seems so Pointless eh ?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/4a/b2/284ab2f6d1773c5daca85269a5b01df9.jpg

The Buddha always told his disciples not to waste their time
and energy in metaphysical speculation. Whenever he was
asked a metaphysical question, he remained silent. Instead,
he directed his disciples toward practical efforts. Questioned
one day about the problem of the infinity of the world, the
Buddha said, "Whether the world is finite or infinite, limited
or unlimited, the problem of your liberation remains the same."

Another time he said, "Suppose a man is struck by a poisoned
arrow and the doctor wishes to take out the arrow immediately.
Suppose the man does not want the arrow removed until he
knows who shot it, his age, his parents, and why he shot it.
What would happen? If he were to wait until all these questions
have been answered, the man might die first." Life is so short.
It must not be spent in endless metaphysical speculation that
does not bring us any closer to the truth.

Thich Nhat Hanh

greybeard

31st July 2019, 20:40

I think its a question of who is doing the meditation

For myself I just do three ohms then the Gayatri Mantra then get me out of the way.
No directing of the meditation--it goes where it wants--though most times there is just silence.
If thought creeps in I be aware of the breath--or do Self Inquiry for a moment or two.

Kundalini energy comes in after about fifteen minutes and the body does what it wants
It vibrates/moves in a way that I could not make happen.
The energy moves up the spine through the neck and into the head.

Meditation is a very personal thing but best not to do it to get any end result
That's my thought on it.
Whatever works---the side effect is "The peace that passes all understanding"

Chris

shaberon

31st July 2019, 21:11

I would say yes, since Emptiness is the only condition from which one could even begin to perceive Buddha's Wisdom.

I am a bit schismatic since the common teaching is H. H. Dalai Lama's school which says, empty of all natures. However, the Shentong philosophy of Dolpopa says, empty of all natures other than its own. So by eliminating chattering mind and disturbing emotion, one is not exactly reduced to nothingness and non-existence, but instead begins to perceive reality. Most of the awkwardness about the term "emptiness" could perhaps be better understood as No Ego.

Correspondingly, Mindfulness also changes its nature. The beginning phase is called Sati, which has to do with environmental awareness, behavior, and thoughts that arise. However, as one cultivates Emptiness, or Sunyata, there is a different type of perception called Smrti. This, I suppose, is mindful of what the Void actually does. If you toss egotistical components into it, you will receive monsters and nightmares. If you stop that and approach it wisely, it will replace "you" with reality.

Clear Light

1st August 2019, 08:55

If further studies suggest that emptiness is a scientific truth of existence, says Van Gordon, then it may be necessary for scientists to reexamine how they interpret psychological and physical phenomena.

41289

Ah, paradigmatically speaking, not to sound all pompous and self-righteous about it, but clearly this is where "the rubber meets the road" eh ?

Now, imagine telling a hardened-matter-of-fact "Scientist" that ALL of their Models and Theories are based upon the Faulty starting premise of the apparent Universe being OBJECTIVELY "out there" PRIOR to their various ways of MEASURING it ... and furthermore that, actually, their SUBJECTIVE point-of-view is itself not as "water tight" as they would like to BELIEVE !!! LOL :bigsmile:

what is a name?

1st August 2019, 09:56

DUALITY
Masculine - Feminine
Positive - Negative
Thought - Silence (awaiting the 'thought')

All the above ingredients are required for

BALANCE
NEUTRALITY
ANDROGYNY

41290

Although I wouldn't necessarily say the image gives the 'polarities' correctly.

Sunny-side-up

1st August 2019, 10:05

Great post Clear Light and I love that image you posted :)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/4a/b2/284ab2f6d1773c5daca85269a5b01df9.jpg

Now I haven't thought this thru properly, posting quick.

I see the self as our: lost, over complicated, contaminated, unrefined INTERFACE.

The basic self/interface is the tool to interact and communicate with the material world.
It's a communication tool which we let control our interaction.

It should be other way around, us just using it and not living through it uncontrolled.

Ego is the ill, overindulged, over important, the junkie self controlled by emotions.

We project a 'self' into the material world as the interface, but
we get buried in the projected self, and end up using it as a 'Shield' which we become weak and lost behind..

In my younger years I did a lot of experimenting with altered states and meditation/s.
I would try a technique for some time then find out it was a well established form.
Time and again I did that, find it first then read upon it.
I am now very lucky and can just go into/out to a zen spot, clear, just me hanging there.

I say out to a zen spot because it sounds healthier then hiding within.
IN, OUT, I.
We are the space

I haven't got all day "TIME"
Now that's another illusion ha

Ratszinger

1st August 2019, 15:13

I plow a field! No matter what stray thoughts or images come to me I go back to the plow pulled by my horse and the image of the plow moving the dirt as I walk with my horse in my bare feet. Give me a few minutes doing that in a chair relaxed and you can do a filling replacement in one of my teeth without anesthetic.

Clear Light

1st August 2019, 16:17

betoobig

1st August 2019, 17:09

whatever makes you feel better in the concrete moment is best for that specific moment.... so there´s nothing truly better than other... that type of approach is ego based, competition.... all are defferent paths to the same no-thing-ness.
Much love

Deux Corbeaux

1st August 2019, 17:54

Oh well .... ;)

Best Buddhist meditation....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u2FP7pm_fY

shaberon

1st August 2019, 21:57

41290

Although I wouldn't necessarily say the image gives the 'polarities' correctly.

That image is Ardhanarishvar or Shiva and Uma combined as one. I am not sure how they came up with it. To a greater extent, it appears that the Hindu Aryans actually received feminized or androgynized teachings from the Buddhists, i. e. one finds the Sahaja cult of Krishna and Radha appearing in the 1600s, which is very, very long after Sahaja had been publicized, which was probably a long time since it was practiced secretly, in Buddhism.

The picture is roughly correct at least as far as the two main nerves, solar and lunar, where the human being invests their life-force without it ever reaching the center. Perhaps rather strangely, moon is considered male, you can see it there on Shiva's head. That is because the female is inner heat. There are a lot of other ways to philosophize it, but this is aimed at how the body could work if it were not in such an ignorant, defiled state.

Meditation on Emptiness alone is insufficient, since the Androgyne is defined as Prajna--Upaya, which is Wisdom of Emptiness plus Skillful Means. You have to display the wisdom and do things that benefit others, characterized by generosity and patience and so forth. This is closer to the meaning of "Bhagavad", which is not lord or god, but means possessing transcendental wisdom while manifesting enlightened perfection, or being endowed with virtues.

If Meditation on Emptiness is powerful, Mantra on Emptiness is exponentially more powerful, and Tantra on Emptiness is exponentially more powerful than that. But we have to start from Mindfulness. We have an open door to anybody, no matter how stupid, unskilled, criminal, or whoever. So there are piles of material intended for children and illiterates and other beginners or just people who have a hard time following it. This runs from "grade school" to "post-doctoral", everyone fits in somewhere.

I believe most modern educated people can start somewhere beyond the "utter beginning" provided for the unwise. Look at it this way: Tibet was pierced by Jesuit and Capucin missions in the 1700s. At the time, the Jesuit was given much information and managed to intellectually learn most of the basics of Buddhism, but his mind could not even approach Emptiness. He was unable to "get it". So he had a pile of information that didn't work because it lacked an engine. Carl Jung was almost the same or thought it was another tool to stuff in his bag while science remained correct and supreme, so, he got a little farther but still didn't "get it".

The "authorities" have failed miserably every time they were given a chance, and this really is for the "little people" who do much better. Our modern converts en masse are the Indian Dalits or the untouchable, unwashed poor. They and everyone else who sincerely tries, are going to yank the rug out from under the "ruling class" or at least its mental autocracy.

Clear Light

1st August 2019, 22:55

Agape

2nd August 2019, 06:43

I think that “meditation on emptiness” is in fact, exercise of your finest logical reasoning, turning to logician ( rather than theologician :)) and mind scientist for a while. Using our “front lobe” ability of deciphering reality of environment surrounding us, as it reflects in our mind, introspectively.
Observing relationship between causes and consequences, rooting your thinking in logic firmly is important.

Theological approach to everything happens in our brain trying to make best sense of its holistic, intuitive assumptions. Whatever theories or worldviews we have learned, evolved or adopted but not researched thoroughly they all are lingering in the vast unexplored space of intuitive brain.

In Buddhist context, one of the best explanations of the doctrine of aka “emptiness” can be found in the Diamond Sutra ( more accurately: Diamond-cutter Sutra, Vajracchedika Prajnaparamita).

It reveals the fierce quality of Buddhist thought is right about “connecting the dots”.

It could be well called “mathematical approach to mind functions” without losing a point. It’s not something mysterious only Buddha can do or something to dwell on doing for lifetime. It’s something to get right in our mind and keep doing it:)

It’s a method against so called “brain fog” and whatever people label as ignorance. Of course “ignorance” may apply to “ignorance of facts” and so also, in some cases out of the usual spectrum of experience, ignorance of consequences.

We should not deny ourselves the privilege of understanding the subtle logic of causes and consequences available to us already, it’s how we learn to think efficiently.

I’ve heard people saying “thinking hurts” or “too much thinking hurts”.

But: if you are thinker then meditation is a must and vice versa, to meditate with sense your thinking process is either rich and logical
or...you fall to difficulty of boredom, ignorance or various “dream realms” of consciousnesses and imaginations.

Yogic approach to emptiness is more like using strong detergent on ourselves dissolving whatever comes in a way. Not many people can do it right nowadays.

Dissolving “self” in the middle of society is ultimately risky. Anything bearing the name of “ultimate” is ultimately:), socially risky.

People who have done that correctly in the past have been guided and shielded by other people and specific protective environments like temples and monasteries.

People use many strong “detergents” on themselves like drugs and various cult methods before developing themselves fully while there’s seldom any appropriate guidance.

What happens as result is they bleach themselves, hurt each other but miss the “clear light” within.

It seems to me that in human future there will be the notion of “Buddhist thought” and logical reasoning will turn even more important but there won’t be any “Buddhas” because we ( in terms of human society) don’t have the time and facilities to evolve them.

Even these days and I’ve witnessed this personally and in many cases of very advanced thinkers, most are at huge risk of extermination from one or another government, held or punished for “freedom of thought, speech etc.”

There’s an old Buddhist Koan of Rinzai tradition :” If you meet Buddha on the way kill him”.

It’s not an instruction to kill or hurt people, it’s a riddle for students seeking the Buddha “out there” at all times.

But you may have observed how many old fashioned people and systems can not tolerate progressive thinkers and peaceful evolution of thought.
If you walk ahead too far ....

well try look for Buddhas

But that’s a koan :)

Deux Corbeaux

2nd August 2019, 12:08

Ah, hopefully, for those interested, when talking about "emptiness", the idea, I'd suggest, is *not* to make it into a Concept (by reifying it) ... it's the exact reverse you're aiming for, that is, an un-doing, an un-binding, a loosening up, a releasing of solidity and tension eh ? :wink:

“Thirty spokes converge on a hub
but it’s the emptiness
that makes a wheel work
pots are fashioned from clay
but it’s the hollow
that makes a pot work
windows and doors are carved for a house
but it’s the spaces
that make a house work
existence makes a thing useful
but nonexistence makes it work”

-Lao-tzu-

Thank you Clear Light.

This reminds me of Dilgo Khyentse who said "Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it"

"The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way.
Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it."

Deux Corbeaux

2nd August 2019, 12:32

In Raja Yoga training, as well as Buddhist/Shambala meditation training, I have learned and experienced that mindfulness (concentration of thought) comes before reaching emptiness - the Silence between the Thoughts.

I see Mindfulness as a step towards Emptiness. Or what Petanjali calls in his "Yoga Sutras": .... citta-vr̥tti-nirodhaḥ - stopping the ripples of the mind (free translation).

Concentration, as in the 6th limb of Raja Yoga (Dharana), or during concentration on your breath, the Shambala Meditation way, is a beneficial tool to eventually reach Emptiness (Dhyana), or Complete Realisation(Samadhi/acquiring truth), or whatever you want to call it.

First learn to concentrate on one thing, and one alone, like a mantra, an object, your own breath, or even your feet in Walking Meditation (meditation in motion). Then let that thought go and experience the silence between the thoughts.

When the moment of total silence or absence of thoughts gets longer and longer, one can even experience the "sound of silence", or the high pitch/tone of awareness.

Don't worry, thoughts will come, sooner than you want, but you will become more compassionate towards your thoughts and you will learn to watch them from a distance, like visitors coming to your house. Welcome them at the frontdoor, and show them the rooms where they can meet the other equal thoughts (worries, irritations, shopping lists, bills to pay....), .... close the doors and walk away.
Then wait for the next visitors. And they will come. Busses full of them ;)

Clear Light

2nd August 2019, 13:28

Deux Corbeaux

2nd August 2019, 17:19

This reminds me of Dilgo Khyentse who said "Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it"

"The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way.
Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it."

Oh, yes, and perhaps in the same vein, there's this one from another Nyingma lama :

The purpose of meditation is to awaken in us the skylike nature of mind, and to introduce us to that which we really are, our unchanging pure awareness that underlies the whole of life and death.

In the stillness and silence of meditation, we glimpse and return to that deep inner nature that we so long ago lost sight of amid the busyness and distraction of our minds.

Now, I can't speak to Sogyal Rinpoche's recent "fall from grace" (so-to-say) but the above quote certainly "rings true" with regards to the Role our Mind's play and ultimately the (apparent) realization of the "Nature of Mind" (aka our "Natural State") eh ? ;)

:heart:

I followed some of Sogyal Rinpoche's "crazy wisdom" teachings at the Rigpa centre in Amsterdam and I must say, very refreshing. Lots of laughter as well. He's Buddhism’s bad boy ;)

My Yoga teacher used to say: "The enlightened yogi will one night sit in a pub, wearing a fur coat, drinking beers and enjoying women, and the other night he will sit in a cave wearing rags and drink just water..... and he is content both ways, as he's not attached to either lifestyle.

Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa) (1939-1987) who established the Shambala training method, was famous for his fondness for beer and women. His son Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakyong_Mipham) is not currently teaching whilst allegations of misconduct are investigated at this moment .......
:faint:

shaberon

3rd August 2019, 04:53

Chogyam Trungpa was a co-opt or takeover of the Vajradhatu organization of the 1970s, which was a similar concept of getting Dharma centers opened in the west--without anything "crazy".

Most of the Kagyu are shocked, embarrassed, and apologetic about it turning into Shamballah and how it went.

Many of his close associates testify "his mind was so pure/pristine" and so forth, but the question most of us ask ourselves is, how does drug abuse or sex abuse display Bodhi or intense compassion for the wellness of all beings?

There has to be responsibility since Prajna or Wisdom of Emptiness is a Buddhist subterfuge for Shakti or Power, and so if I develop this, it carries the equivalent of a Mulla Kurumb to kill at a glance. It holds all the lesser powers such as subjugation. So for example it would not be much of a barrier to replace peoples' wills and personalities with something else.

A modern equivalent which I am not going to link is True Buddha School. This has 5-6 million followers, and the head guy holds zero lineages. However his people speak of him as they did Trungpa--it doesn't matter because he is so pristine he really is a Living Buddha. I have read a few of the sexual allegations against him and they are not really that bad, as in nothing violent, but I do get a sense of dominance or using his celebrity to overwhelm a female's disinterest in having sex with him.

Most of the Nepali Vajracharyas are not monks and lead an ordinary married life, and many of the Sakya are the same way. Most of the leadership has integrity. It is not exactly the sex or a beer that is the issue, it is a moral ground. Concealing abuse would make me think of you as a criminal. Messing around on a vow drags you to hell.

Now if we say there is a moral ground due to responsibility with power, and the Ming Empire used Buddhist advisors, Altan Khan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altan_Khan) was subjugated. He passed the Great Wall and attacked Beijing. So what they call "Alliance with the Gelug" came later and they mention some funny business about only a disciple being sent to meet the Khan. But the tradition within Gelug says they cast subjugation spells all over him; and then we see a peace treaty resulted.

This eventually had internal repercussions to Tibet, in terms of the Gelug becoming a bit too Mongol-authoritative. It is really the case that the schools are made of imperfect human beings that do better or worse jobs. The moral imperative is at least as important as any other aspect, perhaps more. We are not omniscient but we must try our best.

Emptiness is never alone, but is half of an Androgyne, Prajna--Upaya. When done on a strong moral ground, Upaya or Skillful Means produces Great Bliss. The Prajna or Wisdom of Emptiness, which without Bliss is as cold as death, is a certain way of handling Shakti or Power. So then to say the Union of Bliss and Emptiness is more or less to say the Union of Bliss and Power. This is rather heavily veiled since, on the face of it, that sounds like the worst possible temptation and could be interpreted as drugs and sex captives. The criterion of truth in it remains the morality. The "certain way" lies in that the Buddhist method does not use Patanjali's Eight Limb Yoga, it may appear similar, but it is something else.

Aside from the problems, if you did Shamballah even a little bit, then you are initiated into Prajnaparamita. That part is real.

Clear Light

3rd August 2019, 10:08

Oh, with regards to the past apparent mis-conduct of certain "realized ones" as somehow being some kind of Crazy-Wisdom-like "skilful means" meant to shatter the illusions of, I'm presuming, ONLY their Female disciples, well, that seems indicative of their not having fully integrated / transmuted the Divine Feminine Energies eh ?

But whatever the case is, or rather was, as far as I can concerned (putting all of the various lineage affiliations and "battles" to one side) : it's our Natural State that is of prime importance, because once you are clearly knowledgeable about it, remaining as that in ALL the circumstances of Conventional Life is more than enough, I feel, to be "getting on with" (so-to-say) ... LOL :bigsmile:

But then again, on the other hand, given its Dynamic Spontaneous moment-to-moment Energetic Manifestations, there is simply no room left for some-one, like a WHO, a little-self, to make the claim of being a Master of all that eh ?

In any event, I'd say Buddha simply means being Awake, divorced from ALL Conceptualisations, nakedly Aware eh ? ;)

:heart:

Agape

3rd August 2019, 10:26

Regarding Buddhist and other religious ethics ...reminds me of my younger days before the start of this Millennium.

I saw the emergence of new religion that will unite the most important, fundamental principles of all major human religions but surpass them in its spiritual elevation,
embracing the differences of various groups and kinds of humans ..

I saw it will necessarily emerge spontaneously through declarations and consciousness of many. From where I see it now it won’t happen any soon or fast,
it may have to evolve over next thousand years at least:)

Current religious systems including the Buddhist Sangha rooted deeply in the mentality of past 4000 years resonate with different stages of human evolution as they seem to preserve those various timelines indefinitely,
the Big Time is ticking for the planet and human beings.

Buddha or even Jesus did not teach a lot about human evolution but they did make prophecies about possible timelines to emerge.
It’s all that a prognostic can do in either case. There are many possibilities and to be honest to the truth, reality is much more surprising, faster and stranger than fiction.

Humanity is not a “status quod”. Its biological make up and intelligence structure and functioning evolve rapidly depending on relationship with environment, nature and nurture.

Future “religion” of mankind will be more less “Universal” in my opinion, based in equal respect and love of Life and all its manifestations, surpassing differences - polar zones and extremes- and there won’t be any forced or even recommended practices or rituals involved, any “secret rituals” either, perhaps no secret rituals especially.

It will be just set of Universal Principles at the end I feel that we all can respect.

And out of the ethical principles such “Universal Religion” won’t target human free will, personal appearance or wellbeing in any manner, it won’t be a controller of human society.

In its current form most religious groups who claim their origin in deep past are strongly biased to one or another side, in my best observation.
Whether it is “matriarchy”, “patriarchy”, “holy Children” hence also pedophilia cults, the way of polarity- duality is still a way of strong egos, master-slave hierarchies,
secret passage of many aspiring worldly powers,
it’s still a way of the beast that does not want to let go off the aspiring noble man so it invents new finicky ways to keep us in the duality game.

I see our existence further will be more free ..

not the other way around.

It would have happened already...but there’s so much underlying emotions and instinctive urges preventing many of these human bodies from rising beyond who “they always were”.

The past of humanity on this planet can’t be called quite purified quite yet ...

and opening our eyes to the reality of 21st century AD, it’s kind of suffocating by its own fumes.

Speaking of “emptiness”, the “awakening” of 21st AD automatically surpasses the awakenings of Buddha Shakyamuni. Awakenings of tomorrow again will surpass the
current ones.

It’s because we define ourselves foremost as living, changing, evolving and mostly conscious entity. We don’t exist as “statues” or some kind of steady state idioms,
and even if we prefer steady state from evolution times to times we can’t prevent or stop ourselves from happening.

Wish, may all the good teachers and yogis who walk far ahead developing clear insight to reality be a beacon of hope regardless, mirror to Space and image to no one ,
helping us navigate from the chaos to clarity
from myriads of deceptions to the truth

in the Empty Space

Mysteries of the Local Void: Scientists map a Vast Void surrounding Milky Way (https://www.space.com/local-void-map-around-milky-way.html)

🌟🌟🌟

Deux Corbeaux

3rd August 2019, 10:30

....... The "certain way" lies in that the Buddhist method does not use Patanjali's Eight Limb Yoga, it may appear similar, but it is something else.

Aside from the problems, if you did Shamballah even a little bit, then you are initiated into Prajnaparamita. That part is real.

You are right shaberon. They are not the same and I experienced that all too well.

After years of study and practicing Raja Yoga (Eight Limb Yoga), which is based on the Yoga Sutra's of Petanjali, I felt I really missed something, as it is mainly a mental development. It's about self-knowledge and self-control. I started to feel cold and empty. An undesired emptiness in this case.

The Dharma brought me the Heart, the third H of Head, Hand and Heart. It made me feel more complete. The circle became round.

shaberon

4th August 2019, 01:42

After years of study and practicing Raja Yoga (Eight Limb Yoga), which is based on the Yoga Sutra's of Petanjali, I felt I really missed something, as it is mainly a mental development. It's about self-knowledge and self-control. I started to feel cold and empty. An undesired emptiness in this case.

The Dharma brought me the Heart, the third H of Head, Hand and Heart. It made me feel more complete. The circle became round.

Awesome, that is good to find when someone holds the knowledge "for themself". Otherwise, it would be a belief. It may seem abstruse to many people but Dharma is the law of love, although usually you see the word "compassion" attached to Upaya or Skillful Means, in which case it is called Karuna. The use of "compassion", I think, is to distinguish it from a wistful or helpless love, it is active and makes results. And again, the English word, mind, is difficult, because mainly the way we use mind is meaning Bodhi Mind of the heart, not the psyche.

This does not mean Patanjali is incorrect or doesn't work, again, it is a sort of moral judgement, to say Buddha Dharma is a superior guide, by teaching the heart not as an emotion but as a living power. I have also tried other Yogas and Ekankar and so forth, but, in the long run, this is home, and this realization is a large part of why.

Agape

4th August 2019, 09:27

There’s much that could be said( from my perspective at least) about the misuse of mind-energy “free transmissions” and the teachings of various Higher Yoga Tantras and empowerments since they left their original homeland.
But as a matter of fact: there’s no historical date when it all started, long before Buddha Shakyamuni.
Whenever Oneness (of individuality) is conditioned and interpreted in dualistic manner, it falls to the duality ruling this world.

Pure Being is Vajrasattva( or Ardhanishvara) because we all contain both gender qualities in ourselves, that is in each of us.
They are indivisible, no matter whether they manifest as Yin or Yang on outside, the other is always latently( or manifestly) present.

Most of the genuine instructions concerning sexuality were originally given in secret( but call it privacy) to wealthy students who were actually married or, well the lowest classes of students we commonly know only as prostitutes by volition.

So called “Vajra caste” in India were of the lowest castes in India- blacksmiths caste, hard nuts in short. People who worked with iron and fire and dirt so did not have prejudice and so many “cultivated habits” of the more educated classes.

Later Vajrayana ( Vajra is a name for diamond, thunderbolt, penis and many other related items , did I say penis 😆 , Yana is the “Way of going” aka transport means) turned to powerful trend and widespread group mostly because it opened the direct way of instructions to people of all castes and creed and genders.

It’s especially associated with generating “tummo” or psychic heat. If you understand this in the right context of respective environments and have an idea of diversity of human biological makeup here on this planet, it will give you better sense.

In India for example( but true also for many other “hot climatic zones” inhabited for thousands of years by humans) people lived and worked in the hot climate long enough to adapt to it. Their metabolic rate is generally faster than of people from cold North.
Their body temperature oscillates around 37C unless they’re cold or ill, their organism turned them to heat processing engine. With fast heart and metabolic rate everything in the body happens faster, birth and death, digestion, temper changes and energy transformations, of course.
There seems to be a common misconception about feats of psychic heat practiced and developed for cold “Himalayan caves”. It can be generated by anybody, true ...but still, the best of Himalayan yogis usually came from the South and there’s important feature to melting energies in accomplished way that only happens in hot climates.

If you are born in far North or even not so far but generally colder climatic zones there are features of yogic practice you won’t experience, at least not in the same spontaneous manner.

The Nordics have built saunas but compared to overall climatic heat lasting for days and months it’s like building AC rooms in the South.
It is certainly helpful and takes some pressure off but it’s not the same.

Back to Vajrayana, an accomplished master can guide anybody through personal instruction, true, provided the conditions for practice are accomplished.
Masters without accomplishments keep giving empowerments and instructions to groups( sometimes crowds) of disciples who are sometimes completely different in their nature, very often in language they barely understand, is not Vajrayana.

It is a puppet show for spoiled n rich, mostly.

I’ve not been party to disseminating the teachings in the West in such manner. Intuitively avoided it. It may be fun and blessing but if you want to get any closer to the source you’d have to come to India , actually and be able to practice here under guidance.
Not to mention that qualified guidance is very difficult to find and most of the true yogis accept their path as their guide, for lifetime.

The rest of what’s happening with higher yogic teachings and techniques worldwide falls to vow breaking category, in my perspective.
You get guilty by stepping in ( tongue in cheek):)

Guilty by prostrating in front of someone you don’t know really well( but everyone does it there). Even if you totally mean it, the master won’t get off to pick you up more than anyone else.
I’m against prostrating people on the ground without it would make a good heart sense. Among adults this happens rarely.
Other than that, making bows or beating people with sticks because someone else does that is spiritually, gross mistake.

The rest of what happens in the room is an avalanche of “noble errors”.

Good theater and nothing more except for two or three highly evolved students who have done the meditation, remember the past lives and simply, keep continuing their practice perhaps.

Jump 60 years back to realize none of these masters wished to be where they are at the first place. They did not want to do this at all.
Giving secret instructions to unprepared students constitutes breakage of the sacred vows.
They were pushed out of their monasteries, turned refugees, escaping the brute force of Chinese “liberation army”. Their wealth was spent in couple of years before they became dependent on Western patrons to maintain their status and living as teachers.

Most of them refused to go anywhere for long as they could. Firstly in Tibet, then in the spiritual homeland of India.
Secular people are more likely to run somewhere for better life, monks and nuns not so.
Giving some of these empowerments and teachings to Europeans say, 100 years ago would be mostly a no go, with couple exceptions. They’ve practiced and preserved the tradition for generations of unbroken lineages.
Their true masters seldom spoke a lot or had many students.

Just by talking a lot everyday( as common in secular society) much of your yogic and meditation practice loses its chance of accomplishment.
People use it as a “supplement” to their life style, then turn it to entertainment.

Yogis practiced in silence for years. There’s no accomplishment waiting for those who take meditation practice for “supplement” only. You can become supple for sure, get better wits, sense of humor and so on, by supplementing thus 😀

From what I’m aware of, many of the yogic masters who went or were sent to teach to foreign countries did so after much inner struggle and to say it straight, out of despair and empathy for their own people.
It’s when you see MANY people dying, being punished despite they’ve been the humblest and most benevolent creatures on Earth you know, you will do about anything that may help.

At least I wish those prospective students made some sentient effort towards the knowing the unknown.
For example, every effort should be made to explain the matter in language appropriate to people of today so they can actually follow the protocol/method.

I suspect most of the teachings were given in traditional manner so that students could make just about half sense of it. It completely depends on the teacher and “how much” do they want to teach and give out, actually.
Yogic techniques are pretty much a science rather than some mysterious faith and should be practiced with full awareness.

Even the most simple teachings and meditation techniques can be conveyed individually if there’s true and sincere interest, followed by practicing them they bear unmistaken results.

There’s something wrong that happened to all this being converted to public doctrine.

One fairly ancient lama I won’t name, out of respect shared on occasion that (he thinks) the whole Chinese takeover of Tibet happened because too many sacred vows were broken( back then already).
It happened again and again in history, people engaging in wrong way of practice, even with good faith brought the society down to their knees.

Apologies to Clear Light, if this post proves to be very :offtopic: I will delete it or move it.

My editing abilities are miserable yet, working from phone.

Thanks if the above makes some sense to any of you, anyway

With free smiles and blessings

🙏🙏🙏

greybeard

4th August 2019, 09:41

Yes Agape very articulate and makes sense to me.
My path got narrower and thus simpler Advaita Vedanta----only Brahman is and I am That.
That Thou Art.

Chris

greybeard

4th August 2019, 09:51

This video goes deeply into what awareness is, and where it is located
It may be a long talk but there is a helpful process in there.
Awareness is an essential part of any meditation--you could say.

Chris

Swami Sarvapriyananda - "Astavakra The Heart of Awareness"
This was the second lecture given by Swami Sarvapriyananda at RKVSNC on August 19, 2017. This lecture was a discourse on chapter 1, verse 12 from the Astavakra Gita/Astavakra Samhita:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqZ1z16yyP4

Clear Light

4th August 2019, 12:25

shaberon

4th August 2019, 20:11

Back to Vajrayana, an accomplished master can guide anybody through personal instruction, true, provided the conditions for practice are accomplished.
Masters without accomplishments keep giving empowerments and instructions to groups( sometimes crowds) of disciples who are sometimes completely different in their nature, very often in language they barely understand, is not Vajrayana.

It is a puppet show for spoiled n rich, mostly.

You must be summing up a lot of things here.

The thing that puzzled me is why H. H. Dalai Lama went around the world giving something like 200 Kalachakra empowerments to crowds.

Kalachakra is too big, too intense. To do it requires dedicating all day, every day to it. You have to do things like bathe in dirt and brush your teeth with kusha grass. It is an extremely complicated system with over 700 deities which for the most part are in a very different presentation than in the majority of other tantras.

It probably is the most advanced teaching there is, but, the only way I know that it may be different is that it claims to produce Emptiness Body as well as Sahaja or Bliss Body available in the older and simpler tantras. I am not convinced, because, if you synthesize the commentaries, it seems more like an alternate way of doing the same thing.

Its chief goddess is Viswamata, but, this is simply their name for Prajnaparamita.

So if, like me, instead, you were at a Shamballah or other Kagyu center, they initiated you into Prajnaparamita. They didn't say that, there was no tantric procedure or any kind of "yoga technique", it just happened. How? Because they recite Heart Sutra, which contains Prajnaparamita's mantra, and is the main preliminary of deity yoga in any of the schools.

They gave you the universal key. Nalanda Translation Committee Heart Sutra (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjWkNbv9OnjAhXPg-AKHfsYCd0QFjAAegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nalandatranslation.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F09%2Fheart-sutra.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0ILqlezXAzFmozcam6xBgB) in pdf.

Her full sadhana is one of few whose instructions are to study her text, Prajnaparamita (https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra), Perfection of Wisdom. She may also be used as a deity who, for instance, would employ the entire Kagyu Merit Field.

The main approach of course is the rather literal Gelug philosophy called Prasangika, something like Emptiness is Emptiness. This is probably a better presentation to the public, since Emptiness is usually a difficult thing to understand. Dolpopa's "fringe" philosophy called Shentong is allowed in Sakya, Kagyu, and Jonang schools, and while I find it to be more accurate or complete, there is a greater danger to re-ify it, which has been mentioned before as a terrible sin, meaning "to make a thing of it", or to try to give it an objective existence like science would require. But it is still similar to the other teachings, in that you are given a series of concepts which have been found useful to help you enter a concept-free state.

But in this case, the simple dharma center revelation of Prajnaparamita, although it came with little else, is vastly superior to receiving empowerment on a deity that you are not going to follow properly.

If you mention Emptiness, at all, philosophically, it is Prajnaparamita. If you find it to be real in a yogic or meditative state, it is Prajnaparamita. If you follow Buddhism more throroughly, she remains in place, infinitely, there is not really progress except through her, Mother of All Buddhas. In other words, once you have the introduction, it is a permanent condition.

The number of possible deities and mandalas is endless, but, in this world, we have been given a certain number that change us from deluded worldlings into Bodhisattvas. There is a general scheme it follows, with, I suppose, certain side branches that address individual strengths and weaknesses. People are broken and filled with varying degrees of fear, anger, and so forth, so if you are more neurotic, you would probably be given Eight Fears meditations, and if not, it would not be required. With enough of these outer, stabilizing processes, eventually one challenges death itself. This is not the end of the Path, but in all schools, there is an intermediate stage to uproot or eradicate death in the normal sense of the word.

In order to do that, in all the schools, we use Prajnaparamita--even if taught as a book or philosophy rather than a deity--then Vajrasattva, which is Purification, although he has more abilities--and Guru. Most of us are never going to have any close bond to a living teacher, who would normally be placed as Guru. So we have to take what we are connected to--if Gelug makes more sense to you, then you would use H. H. Dalai Lama or Tson kha pa, if you can connect to Nyingma then it would be Padmasambhava, but for someone like me who has only a tenuous connection to Kagyu, it is the deity Vajradhara.

Why do we have this? It is said that by Sutra-based meditation alone, accomplishment takes 300 eons. That is if you study Prajnaparamita and do the basic no-self meditations. The pattern of increasingly deep mantra meditation evokes power, which accelerates the process to only a few, one more, or even in this lifetime. The blessing is its danger. Mahayana is occult acceleration. It will force all of your rotten karma out of the subconscious, and hit you with it, very hard, on the objective plane. That should persuade you to quit making garbage.

That is why the majority of mantra is slated towards protection and purification. The inner aspect is always just the unfolding and development of Prajnaparamita. She is also one of the few that the Tibetans class as a wisdom-giving or Sherab deity, meaning she enhances one's faculties. Two of the other Sherabs are Sarasvati and Manjushri. It could be reasoned that Prajnaparamita absorbs the Hindu Sarasvati, and both can be found to be the female aspect that unites with male Manjushri.

These are Tathagata or Buddha Family deities, which means they can either constitute one's entire practice, or, they evoke the other Families, which simultaneously gives the possibility to train in another if more appropriate, or, makes all families operable. One would eventually settle into a main family that gives Enlightenment in meditation, while it is also the case that in the body and in manifestation, one must become able to use all families equally.

I think there is a total difference between a puppet show for the rich versus the real Prajnaparamita given freely to people like the Dalits and me. The deity is no different than the Sutra philosophy but is much more powerful. She is the real esoteric or occult path. She was Aphrodite or Venus mysteriously arising from the sea, but we would have to say those schools are demolished. In Mahayana, she has been either the philosophy, or the main deity, continuously, since ca. year 200.

Agape

4th August 2019, 20:16

Clear Light

5th August 2019, 12:01

Ah, here's a quote I feel is relevant to this thread :

The nature of the mind has never changed ~ Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

Thoughts manifest themselves within emptiness and are reabsorbed into it like a face appears and disappears in a mirror; the face has never been in the mirror, and when it ceases to be reflected in it, it has not really ceased to exist. The mirror itself has never changed. So, before departing on the spiritual path, we remain in the so-called “impure” state of samsara, which is, in appearance, governed by ignorance. When we commit ourselves to that path, we cross a state where ignorance and wisdom are mixed. At the end, at the moment of Enlightenment, only pure wisdom exists. But all the way along this spiritual journey, although there is an appearance of transformation, the nature of the mind has never changed: it was not corrupted on entry onto the path, and it was not improved at the time of realization.

And :

The mistaken dualistic mind ~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy’s validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as ‘enlightenment’, ‘the nature of the mind’, and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.

Now it may seem too Radical to assert BUT the "self" is a mere appearance, like an hallucination and our insistence on the fact of its "realness" is, I'd say, probably the "biggest of all the elephants in the room" eh ?

https://www.childcareexpo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/The-elephant-in-the-room-by-Andrea-Turner.jpg

Agape

6th August 2019, 10:36

I think of the cocoon of Life floating in the great Void, how frail it is bathing in the Empty Space. The Void has been surrounding us from ever devouring every living thing.
We have to strive to survive. Being devoured by emptiness is what happens to most of people if you don’t care.

The emptiness so empty. Ask why does Japan being one of the most advanced societies on the planet, at the moment have one of the highest suicidal rates per capita with all the taught love for empty.

I’ve seen some very sad people attending these Zen seshins whatever you prefer to call it and they’re chronically sad. The only jokes many are capable of there are about how empty all is and how to hurt egos to the best degree.
Some seem to be very sadistic and masochistic in their approach.
The “hatred for self” turns to “hatred of life” and undiagnosed chronic depression easier than you count to 5. It’s so sad you’d cry of it.

To get out of the great Void itself requires lots and lots of live effort.

Find meaningful connection to others again and again, find the true vector and meaning of our existence here, it all requires effort.

Once the “great empty” takes over people’s lives, sooner or later they’re done, their minds do not work anymore as they did, their willpower and intents, all the blessing and ability to be happy ceases.
No roar, no drama, their aspiration of quiet disappearance slowly seeps to other people’s lives.
Starting as sensitive humanitarians long ago, they turn hateful to every kind of life because it’s so frail, so transient, so empty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5QTdC7hOo

Emptiness is everywhere around us, make a little step to the side and you’re caught in it’s sweet sounding tune of Orpheus lyre, illusory but ever present call of the great sea of emptiness. The deep pathetic call bringing us to tears.

Only the strong and courages can cross the great empty.

Emptiness itself is empty and the religion of it, fairly everlasting :)
It should not be followed unless you give your willing consent to something like depopulation of the planet.
Not any soon but remember that every faith requires sacrifices to it, to declare itself full.

Being a meditator doing nothing is not a real solution for depression, really.

From life perspective Zen cults are just one polar extreme to the misgivings of human society.

If you ever did couple years of meditation retreat you are meant to understand that “supreme accomplishment” would be shedding this piece of human coat,
leaving it behind ,
or ...perhaps ..starting a new life.

The discovery of Life in the Universe beyond ourselves is going to be ultimately more important than just killing us mercifully for a dogma.

Monk(or nun) symbolize impure ego. If you “want to be monk” or claim to be one, you are asking to be seen as such by this world.

Life takes on all robes and appearances, Life is foremost about Being beyond self and great love and work to accomplish.

🦢

Clear Light

6th August 2019, 10:49

greybeard

6th August 2019, 11:01

Who is aware of emptiness?
Emptiness is not what it seems.
It is empty of "things"
Chris

Rich

6th August 2019, 11:05

Clear Light

6th August 2019, 11:11

Agape

6th August 2019, 11:51

Oh, yes, if taken to an Extreme then yeah, sure, you'd probably seemingly "fall" into a type of Nihilistic-Emptiness, as in there literally is Nothing ... but that's not the Middle Way is it ?

I'd say it's supposed to be like a Union of Emptiness and Compassion (energy), or Emptiness and Clarity, or some such togetherness depending upon the Path eh ?

True Emptiness, I'd suggest, is like having the felt connection with the Base, the Ground of Being ?

To understand anything properly you have to meet its true ends:)

Look there’s a shortcut to the “true emptiness” and “true compassion”, likewise so easy to do, here in India especially. And yes you will “touch the basement” and feel fully for who n how do we exist.
Give your last money( and what else) to the beggar in the street. Own nothing, be no one, just be.
The warmth of the Sun will feel more comforting and every piece of food you later receive will be precious.
You’ll produce very little waste and no CO2 emissions.

You(or I) will live the “natural life” we were meant to live here before all the disputes started. Get reconciled and die natural death without all the modern inventions !!!

JUST TEASING 😀

A Middle Way too is just a smart term for smarties.

That’s why I do not give a credit to any form of organized “religion” and their mantras about how smart they are.
They’re monotonous repetition of terms and idioms favorited by them.

Go beyond in your thought and they’re lost with you. They plug their ears from the rest of what’s going on ..heard of brain plasticity ?
Phew, totally foreign to most people trapped in one of these programs.

Each group have specific terminology and way of convincing people that their programming is ..shortly the best. Proof ?

“The teacher is so beautiful and happy all the time. He’s but compassion and peace embodied”.

It’s not difficult for the “beautiful boys” especially to become cherished icons.

The amount of obstacles anyone in “real life” have to overcome is tremendous compared to life within cult, for the teacher and good students too, perhaps.

So ..the lull is great. Many of todays famous monks and nuns are wealthy people who drive expensive cars. One of their robes cost as much as tailor made suits.

Anyone can be sweet if they had it easy.

Compassion is exposing things for what they are in my best opinion. Emptiness is just one word out of ten thousand we use actively that should not be overused.

It’s when the Snake of Time eats its own head you will believe none. The world starts anew each time,
I’ll be a ladybird and Chris will be a caterpillar
and we shall chat about the flower buds on olive tree:)

😀

greybeard

6th August 2019, 12:18

Ladybird & caterpillar that a nice though Agape--both have the potential to fly and more.
Love Chris

Clear Light

6th August 2019, 12:19

Ah, indeed perhaps the "true ends" of ALL paths really are the SAME ... whether coming from the Buddhist perspective or from an Advaita-Vedantist perspective, and I am inclined to accept that as such (for now) BUT the multitude of Paths (to apparently choose from) clearly are Distinct in certain aspects if one attempts to Compare them eh ?

Thus, I have no "axe to grind" with Chris, it's certainly *not* personal, LOL, but all the same, it's important, I'd say (especially in an online Forum) to be as precise as one can be when using all these words we have at our disposal to ensure the correct meaning is not lost in conversation !!!

:heart:

greybeard

6th August 2019, 12:44

Who is aware of emptiness?
Emptiness is not what it seems.
It is empty of "things"
Chris

Well, respectfully Chris, I'd say "you" can't be Aware of Emptiness like you can be Aware of the sense of Depression, or of Hopelessness ... but interestingly it's the SAME Awareness present in ALL states of Mind because our True Nature is beyond all the machinations of the Mind ... The Emptiness teachings, per se, are meant like a Tool to unpick the Concrete-sense of "self" ... thus there is no "who" !!! LOL ;)

What is aware? is probably more accurate.
The challenge is that words no matter how precise are not it. or "That" to be more correct.
Only one awareness--or only consciousness if that word is preferred.
Nasargadatta--said its beyond definition--so any description --concept is not it.
We understand as best we can, then describe our interpretation of what is.
Love Chris

Clear Light

6th August 2019, 12:50

greybeard

6th August 2019, 13:16

Yes agreed--"me" is not permanent.
No individual self in reality.
Awareness is ever present. (Eternal)
Its also down to definition.
Love Chris

Clear Light

6th August 2019, 14:55

The emptiness so empty. Ask why does Japan being one of the most advanced societies on the planet, at the moment have one of the highest suicidal rates per capita with all the taught love for empty.

I’ve seen some very sad people attending these Zen seshins whatever you prefer to call it and they’re chronically sad. The only jokes many are capable of there are about how empty all is and how to hurt egos to the best degree.
Some seem to be very sadistic and masochistic in their approach.
The “hatred for self” turns to “hatred of life” and undiagnosed chronic depression easier than you count to 5. It’s so sad you’d cry of it.

Oh, yes, truly, I'd say you'd have to be a "dry" practitioner not to have Compassion express itself (through you) with the "Tears of the Dharma" in / as a Heartfelt Response to such Samsaric "wandering" eh ?

:heart:

Now, truth-be-told, it’s not that you are a neutral “personal self” to whom negative mental and negative emotional states visit from time to time eh ?

Indeed, that which is Aware of such Depression (or Sadness) is itself "untouched" by such relative states-of-mind ... and this is the Good News ... because it is always available, right here and now, "you" just have to kind of gently "look back" ... like asking "Am I Aware" ?

Then see what happens to the mind ... it should vanish ... poof ... gone !!!

edina

6th August 2019, 15:07

I remember having difficulty understanding what going into "emptiness" meant.

I asked a QiGong Master I knew. He was certified as an International QiGong Master in China.

That certification process is interesting in and of itself, and when I learned that one of the things an International QiGong Master must demonstrate is to turn water into wine, it made me think....

Anyway, to answer my question he said, "The emptiness is like the space between the candle and the flame."

I've thought about that quite often over the years.

It's not empty.

I often used the phrase, "the fullness of emptiness".

Another way to consider it is like the aui'a of "Ender's Game."

I've just read a Chinese sci-fi trilogy by Cixin Lui.

Repeated through out this trilogy is a phrase.

"The universe is grand. But life is grander."

This demonstrates an understanding of the "emptiness", as I understand it.

Some people experience the "vastness" of the universe and are terrified. Others are comforted.

The "emptiness" is even vaster than the universe.

I think "emptiness" and "mindfulness" compliment each other.

And when we add the Western system of thought, our science along with it, it becomes even more enlightening and liberating.

Truly, fulfilling a stated purpose of this forum, chronicling where "science and spirituality" meet.

https://rs913.pbsrc.com/albums/ac340/bmacroxursox/candle_flame_2.jpg~c200

shaberon

6th August 2019, 17:45

I would actually also recommend studying the Patanjali Yoga Sutras to every aspiring Yogi, meditation practitioner, consciousness explorer and so forth, for starters,
assimilating the precepts, stages and fruits of the Path since the formate of the message is most succinct, one of the oldest yoga instruction books known and passed through ages often as guarded secret.

6 Yogas of Naropa practised in common within all systems of higher yogic teachings are specific offshoot of more ancient yogic system based in the understanding that everything is Light.

Before Patanjali was Samkhya, which is probably the most ancient and basic "nuts and bolts" teaching from which most of the rest developed.

The second part is closer to what I was getting at, since the term itself is loosely used.

If "Six Yogas of Naro" means the Dream Yoga and such practices, which are considered very advanced in Buddhism, the more appropriate term is Six Doctrines or Dharmas. These are only done at the end or completion of all preliminary meditation and purification.

Six Yogas is a definitive term that is not attached to Naro. It is our equivalent way of saying Six Branch Yoga in distinction to the Eight Branch.

Beginning Buddhist meditation can perhaps be said to be a little different than Patanjali by emphasizing Bodhi Mind, which is not really the brain but the heart. This is not really the Yoga, but Shamatha, or tranquility. This phase may last for years, or, may be all a person ever does.

If we were to do Yoga, two markers of the difference are firstly, there is no asana, or posture. As a monk, one might use a cushion or some kind of posture, but in general you can just do a non- or zero posture just naturally in a chair. You might want to eventually learn Seven Point posture or something like that, but, it simply isn't the same kind of requirement or teaching block and not at all a series of exercises.

Similarly, there are not really any kind of breathing exercises which Patanjali calls Pranayama. This is something that is completely occulted and means something fairly specific in an almost medical sense.

So if I took the general Yoga books, they will mostly suggest me to do those exercises and special breathing techniques and then go on with the rest, a more physical method.

The Buddhist method started mentally or with an impulse in consciousness, and what happens is we are going to take Pranayama from a kind of warm-up and move it to the middle as something, realistically, that may take us years to understand what it means, let alone be able to do it. So, instead, almost all the meditation I could come up with, is a warm-up for Pranayama. So this is backwards, or reversed, from other ways.

Instead, in Buddhism, the first Yoga is Pratyahara, which literally means something like "control of food", and mainly concerns sense withdrawal. And so there is a type of Gradual Meditation with Images, mostly concerning our senses, mind, and emotions, purifying and transmuting them. Along with this, there is meditation on Voidness. Both of these are vital, neither should be done at the expense of other.

The most approximate way I could describe it would be those two ingredients, Images and Voidness, are eventually blended into the Pranayama, properly performed, to do Meditation without Images.

Or we could say Om self-arises but from it proceeds the alphabet, and back to it returns to alphabet. Like Om, each of those letters is a magic power or shakti, except they are inherently void and without meaning and they work by Yoga. And so the "Image", is more or less each letter as a sense, psychological factor, or perceived object. We are mastering a cycle or circle of their arising and dissolution.

So as outer students or lay disciples or working people, the majority of our efforts are simultaneously directed towards Emptiness as well as something that appears far more intricate, something like a working catalog of the human aura in minute detail. In my strong opinion it is best to do this and just study what the Pranayama may be. In Buddhism, these auric components are all very carefully handled, much as if one were quietly arranging a temple. In other words, we could perhaps say we are doing Pratyahara, and if we make a contact to Voidness that may be ecstatic, that is Dhyana. Those are at most the first two Yogas.

This is basically the same in all the schools, and contains all the philosophy and Guru Yoga. That probably represents years of spiritual practice before engaging what the Buddhists call Pranayama. So it is all very important.

Agape

6th August 2019, 19:58

Hi Shaberon,

not everything written in scholastic previews, speeches or scriptures even makes perfect sense unless you find practical point to it( then it always does)
and history books older than 1000 years
are not more reliable than today’s media
So finding who was there first, the hen or the egg
turns absurdly impossible in some cases.

Yoga system did not originate with Patanjali !

He just summed its principles very well so that they’ve been preserved in written form. Which isn’t new.

Statuettes of yogis have been found in archeological excavations of the Harappa civilization that arrived in Hindus valley 4000 years ago.

Even though Buddha Shakyamuni is said to have lived around 500 BC,
from many excursions I did to various sacred places
in India and around the globe, video documentaries from all around the globe I suspect that “real” Buddha lived earlier than they calculated it.

It does not really matter so to say, it is a story of the hen and the egg.

That’s why it’s called “never ending story” and cyclic existence of Hindu and later,
Buddhist mythology.

But not everything that’s been recorded somewhere makes good practical sense.

Starting with Guru Yoga,
there used to be very strong personal relationship
between Guru and Disciple in all ancient traditions
while Guru Yoga would actually
imply following your guru and his instructions meticulously
and serving him in every manner.

Guru Naropa himself practiced very hard under Tilipa
so did his own students.

They did not “do Guru Yoga”.

They did what Guru told them to do and succeeded in their accomplishments.

They would not receive ( or read in book) about higher stages and lots of philosophy etc. When Naropa who was a learned and renown scholar already visited Tilopa the master of yogis, considered Mahasiddha by both Hindu and Buddhist traditions respectively, Tilopa told him to throw his books out of window.

He gave him the most impossible and crazy tasks to fulfill until Naropa finally lost the grip of his intellectual ego so holding him together.

He would not receive any “higher instructions” before “he lost it” completely.

So Guru Yoga is meant to be real
and its aim is complete purification
of body, speech and mind.

So called “mandala offering” practice too
was being real once upon the time
and faithful student would have to offer
all they ever had,
sometimes with their wives, children
and the rest to show their aspiration
is genuine
and no “backstops” being left behind.

It wasn’t an empty gesture of surrender
rather than manifestation of pure intent

Then only would according to every genuine
guru parampara (lineage succession)
a student be properly received or not
( yes some were rejected)
receive higher initiations of respective order etc

Crowd initiations were not performed the way they come today but Gurus in India are part of the society to this day, they teach when they appear

The beauty of true spiritual tradition
is that it exists beyond words.

Many practical aspects of the path
are transferred through metaphors
and mental images

yet

the resultant state of any practice
is live knowledge of past, presence and future.

Trying to emulate someone’s else’s practice ritually does not lead automatically to the same results.

That’s how “talking of emptiness is empty” and image of Buddha is not Buddha.

Even no “illusory body” is a Buddha

Most certainly tho when you wake up you are Buddha

which is no self at all

🙏😀🙏

Sorry for late hours here

Deux Corbeaux

7th August 2019, 14:42

......
If we were to do Yoga, two markers of the difference are firstly, there is no asana, or posture.

....... there are not really any kind of breathing exercises which Patanjali calls Pranayama. This is something that is completely occulted and means something fairly specific in an almost medical sense.

So if I took the general Yoga books, they will mostly suggest me to do those exercises and special breathing techniques and then go on with the rest, a more physical method.

You are right. It's our western way of understanding Yoga . It´s Breathing and Exercise....... another form of gymnastics and relaxation.

In Raja Yoga, Asana and Pranayama are only nr 3 and 4 of the 8 limbs and shouldn´t be practiced without first laying down a strong moral and ethical foundation through the limbs 1 and 2, Yama and Niyama (https://kripalu.org/resources/yoga-s-ethical-guide-living-yamas-and-niyamas).

Asana is more a complementary tool, to clean the nadis and balance the chakra system, as each particular asana benefits its corresponding chakra.
However, Yama and Niyama (moral and ethical behaviour) do the same, as they are beneficial to the chakra system as well.

As for Pranayama, that is misunderstood indeed. As you said, `There are not really any kind of breathing exercises ......` . Pranayama is a mental exercise in directing Prana and not physical by breathing.

One has to learn how to practice these mental energy manipulations very carefully and with the help of a skilful teacher to avoid damage. One can´t find this in a book, at least I´ve never been able to find a book in which it was mentioned. Not on Internet either.
It´s drawing Shiva and Shakti energy into the nadis, directing it and let it go out again, through a mental process, using the numbers 16, 32, 64 or a following number in the series, as a `counting handle` during the process, which depends on the benefit of the particular Pranayama.

shaberon

8th August 2019, 22:31

Yoga system did not originate with Patanjali !

He just summed its principles very well so that they’ve been preserved in written form. Which isn’t new.

Yes you are largely correct about the general historical evolution of Yoga. As "pre-Buddhist" yoga lineages, we trace it, mainly, to Manjushri at Wu Tai Shan in China during the last Ice Age, to Kubjika and Dattatreya of South India at almost the same age, and via Yajnawalkya to the "great north country" Uttara Kuru somewhere near Lake Baikal. Whether or not it was really "pre-Buddhist" would be a question to the Historical Buddhas, Kasyapa and others.

There is a Hindu argument calling Buddha the ninth avatar of Vishnu, in order to place him 500 b. c. and conceal that he was a thousand years previous. I am not sure. We would deny Buddha is an avatar and would say a human who became perfect in Yoga.

Mahayana is criticized for "not being written at the time of the Buddha", to which the reply is "this was oral teaching directly to the disciples."

So what we have or what we call schools is more like a gradual public revelation of what the disciples did secretly in caves.

Naro and other siddhas have many different stories, some of which involve being closely brought up in a school, but most were Brahmans who experienced some kind of catharsis. Or in the extreme, a black magician like Milarepa. These were people who would travel months to go somewhere with minimal guarantee of survival, and spend equally vast amounts of time inhabiting caves and cemeteries. Most of us don't have that kind of karma, we are just working people who go home, and so it is the inner meaning of Naro and the others which is, so to speak, compressed into standardized spiritual exercises.

Outer practices of mandalas, Agni Homa, cemetery rites, and so forth, are internalized into meditation.

Currently, if you are not seen as a good candidate, you would still be given mostly outer practices. It is generally those who delight in samadhi that would be seen as ideal for initiation.

Purification by Vajrasattva and Guru Yoga means to attain non-duality in Body, Speech, and Mind. So if one has the samadhi and purification, one would be prepared for higher training such as Pranayama.

The older terms "Yama and Niyama" are not used in Buddhism and would just be called Preliminaries, not Yoga. Yama itself is thought to mean death, but it means restraint, and so what Buddhism is talking about is Prana-Ayama, which is unrestrained prana, because dualized and pouring out the doors of the senses. Restraint, or Yama of Prana, would be developed by Fivefold sense and skandha based purification. Only after that would it become relevant of 8/16/24/32 branchings of prana, etc. This is not a preliminary. This is not anything I suggest anyone try on their own or even talk about it online very much at all.

Everything up to that point you can.

And so the main change or difference between a Sutra-based, philosophical, or no self type of meditation is the addition of Mantra. If Pranayama is a door which is self-secret to begin with, and we're not really going to try to do it, but just know about it, then the most advanced thing we might try to deal with is Mantra.

Here, it has the short combining form of manas or mind, with the syllable, tra, "to protect". Mantra is said to be the most effective method to protect the mind from adventitious defilements and discursive meandering. One would frequently encounter expressions like "initiation is possible after 100 million Vajrasattva mantras". I personally am trying to nest in those 100 million while studying how "system of Vajrasattva" works.

It does not unless your personal Vajrasattva really is Prajna-Upaya, non-dual union of emptiness and skillful methods.

More elaborately, we call them Prajnaparamita and Avalokiteshvara, who would be familiar to anyone who has done Heart Sutra. That is only one piece of Prajnaparamita Sutra (8,000 verses) and Avatamsaka Sutra (much larger). And in this milieu may be found different opportunities for people who are too intellectual, those who have upset emotions, or have a low drive, and so forth, it is something like a repair center. One is doing a sort of transitional Yoga with the intent of samadhi before being given the Pranayama.

In all the schools, this process is summed up as Guru Yoga, although it would not have been possible for Buddha himself to have done it. Ideally, it would involve an incarnate teacher, but without one, one may use Vajradhara which is the same as Samantabhadra from the First Transmission, or Avalokiteshvara, or even in Hinduism, Adi Shankara allows something similar by using Sri Daksinamurti or a title of Shiva designating him as the right-hand path. Such things are reflected in the phrase "blessed is he whose own soul is his guru".

It is not something anyone has to do, but is a designated safe house for those seeking more intensity than an outer rite or simple relaxation.

Clear Light

9th August 2019, 14:36

Ah, perhaps of interest to some of us, there is a little-known-about Tibetan ZEN tradition :

Sam van Schaik - Tibetan Zen "Discovering a Lost Tradition" (2015, Snow Lion) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tibetan-Zen-Discovering-Tradition-2015-08-25/dp/B01N8XI5UH/) [1]

And as I presume, "you" the readers of this thread are probably already aware, "Emptiness" and ZEN have an intimate relationship eh ? :)

Chapter 5. Encounter and Emptiness

EMPTINESS AND ZEN

Though the Laṅkāvatāra sūtra was an important scriptural source in the early development of Zen, as we saw in the previous chapter, it gradually lost this role as lineages began to make more use of the Perfection of Wisdom literature, especially the Vajracchedikā sūtra. Nowhere is this more clear than in the Platform Sutra composed (or compiled) by Shenhui in the eighth century, which extols the virtues of the Vajracchedikā. The Platform Sūtra begins with a narrative account of the enlightenment of the monk Huineng, whose lineage Shenhui adopted. According to the story, when Huineng was a boy he worked in a marketplace selling wood. One day he heard a customer reciting the Vajracchedikā and experienced a sudden clarity of mind. He asked the man where he had learned the sūtra. The man replied that he had been to see the fifth patriarch of the Zen school, Hongren, who had told an audience of monks and laypeople that by merely memorizing the Vajracchedikā they would see their true natures and become buddhas. So Huineng went to find Hongren, joined his monastery, and ultimately became the sixth patriarch of the Zen school.

In the Zen initiation ceremony that forms the center of the Platform Sutra, Huineng uses the Vajracchedikā extensively; this pattern is also found in Pelliot tibétain 116, which as we have seen, contains a complete copy of the Vajracchedikā. So why this particular sūtra? Essentially, the Vajracchedikā is a dialogue between the Buddha and his disciple Subhuti. Out of this conversation, two main topics emerge. The first is the doctrine of emptiness. This is characteristic of all Perfection of Wisdom literature, but the Vajracchedikā takes a particular approach to it, eschewing argument and analysis and not even using the term “emptiness.” Instead the Buddha repeatedly makes contradictory statements, celebrating the virtuous path of a bodhisattva and the qualities of a buddha at the same time as denying that that they exist. This approach is a challenge to dualistic concepts, and particularly to the conceptualization of Buddhist practice as a prescribed path followed by a result.

The rhetorical negations of the Perfection of Wisdom literature were complemented in the Indian Buddhist tradition by the philosophical treatises of the Madhyamaka or “Middle Way” approach. Beginning with Nāgārjuna in the second century ad, Madhyamaka texts attempted to refute current religio-philosophical views on the existence of entities (dharma) found in the Buddhist Abhidharma literature and in various other Indian traditions. According to Madhyamaka, all dharmas are empty (śūnya) of independent existence. Nāgārjuna and his followers often used the negative approach of trying to show the inconsistency in the philosophical positions of others, but also taught that dependent arising (pratītyasamutpāda), the dependence of all things upon other things for their existence, offers a middle way between the extreme views of eternalism and nihilism. Thus the emptiness of entities is the same thing as their being dependently originated.

While the influence of Madhyamaka on Chinese Zen has been discussed, this influence is even more apparent among the Tibetan Zen manuscripts. For example, a brief text called A Teaching on the Essence of Contemplation by Master Haklenayaśas presents Zen as “the instantaneous approach to the Madhyamaka”:

There are many gates to meditation in the greater vehicle. The ultimate among them is the instantaneous approach to the Madhyamaka. The instantaneous approach has no method. One just cultivates the nature of reality in this way: phenomena are mind, and mind is uncreated. In that it is uncreated, it is emptiness. Since it is like the sky, it is not a subject for the six sense faculties. This emptiness is what we call experience. Yet within that experience, there is no such thing as experience. Therefore without remaining in the insights gained from studying, cultivate the essential sameness of all phenomena.

This short text—attributed to the Indian master who came to be counted as the twenty-third in the Indian lineage of Zen patriarchs—offers a practice-based Madhyamaka, where emptiness is understood through two stages, first understanding that all phenomena are mental, and second that the mind is “uncreated”—does not exist in and of itself. This approach to the Madhyamaka was also very popular in the later Tibetan Sakya and Kagyü traditions.

[1] It's a book I bought when it first got published but I figured it is relevant to this thread and might help to illumine what "emptiness" is pointing to but from a different perspective ! ;)

Ron Mauer Sr

9th August 2019, 15:04

Meditating on anything, including emptiness, seems like an effort to me.

Meditation using TM is supposed to be an effortless process. Let the mind relax as the meditator gently thinks the mantra then lets it go.

If memory serves me (Transcendental Mediation, 1977) when the mind is sufficiently quiet, the meditator dips down into the "field of all possibilities". The trick is, after years of meditation, to develop the ability to think at that level while remaining there.

Sometimes my meditations are deep, as I rise up to the surface, I am not sure where I am and I am not aware of anything. Those are great. More often the sessions are filled with thoughts without going deep.

Wish I had made more progress but I am not the ideal student. The motivation for me to start TM was to get experience of being quiet enough to receive intuitive information and guidance. A few times I have amazed myself but usually there is nothing. TM teachers used to say "Pay no attention to your experience." I should check to see if that instruction has changed.

greybeard

9th August 2019, 15:56

Seems to me there are several types of meditation.
One where you are thinking about something specific---focusing one pointed.

The other, where after some kind of starting procedure, whatever comes up is a happening in awareness.
Clouds in the sky--they come and go but the sky is the one where any focus is upon.

Chris

shaberon

9th August 2019, 18:45

One where you are thinking about something specific---focusing one pointed.

The other, where after some kind of starting procedure, whatever comes up is a happening in awareness.
Clouds in the sky--they come and go but the sky is the one where any focus is upon.

Yes, One Pointed is Eka Gata, that consciousness which can remain on the tip of a needle indefinitely. This may be cultivated to Vispassa or With Seed or With Images, which is visualization, which becomes samadhi.

Second kind is Shamatha or Tranquility having partly at least, the intent to tranquilize discursive and disturbing uprisings.

Sky as the focus may be the best pan-Indian Raja Yoga metaphor, it is like this in Buddhism, and to this point is a very close parallel to Shiva and Shakti.

Its letter is Kha. And this letter is the root of "Khecari" or Sky Goer which is still basically the same in any Raja Yoga. However that is telling us something about flight, not just the surroundings of the sky itself. That marks some kind of transition, which is very close to Pranayama. And then in Buddhism, when the energy of flight arises, this is more commonly called Dakini. So as lay practitioners it is best to keep our training and practice on the "near side" of Pranayama--Khecari--Dakini.

Past that point you run into multiple traditions or strands of practice, and mentioning Lankavatara Sutra is the correct source, as there become a few different interpretations of its subject, Alaya, within Buddhism. Similarly, around the same stage of development, Shiva, Shakti, and Vishnu at least, drift apart into different standards and practices.

The fireball to the whole thing, if you will, is Jagganatha at Orissa, in the sense that there is a magical Sandhabhasya or Twilight Language which is understood in common by adepts of these various sects. Jagganatha is in a somewhat unique position of being understood or accepted by everybody. This appears to be most completely replicated in Nepal, where several cities are based on mandalas, some are Buddhist, and some are Shakti or Sri Kula, and people mix in both with no sense of schism. The national deity is Shiva as Pasupati. So those three, at least, are highly mutually intelligible, while it is also possible to maintain that the basket of Indian Buddhism may have moved largely to Tibet, but is completely in Nepal.

Within Buddhism, or, validly according to metaphysics or Abhidharma, there is a philosophy which was once called Nirakara Vijnana Vada or Yogacara Madhyamika around the time of the First Transmission or building of Samye' monastery in Tibet, has not been accepted by the mainstream, and in later times was called Shentong by Dolpopa and followed by Jonang Taranatha. On close analysis, it is the same thing as Parabrahm as expounded by Adi Shankara of Hinduism, with the main thing making it Buddhist being Bodhi Mind, the Sky.

The trouble with it is that after all the no self discussions, in Buddhism, there is Atma or self or what everybody thinks Buddha was attacking or trying to get rid of. So after all this training and philosophy, there apparently is a blatant contradiction. So this is like a personal equivalent of Naro throwing away his library or Milarepa moving a mountain stone by stone. That's kind of why we got kicked out for giving everybody "scrambled brains".

If it was called the self of no self, perhaps that is a better approach.

The only way Shentong can even be seen is to have Prasangika Madhyamika on one side and Yogacara on the other, to get what can be gotten from these and some of the other schools, and then it is like a central super-position, all and none of them.

Even if the majority of Buddhists are unaware of its existence, in all cases, the Sky--Bodhi Mind is Vajrasattva, a rite or practice is not real unless he is involved. What is done could be considered the use, development, progress, achievement of Vajrasattva. He could be called the way to safely summon and harness Dakini. On this, we would say all Buddhists are performing the same Path, whether they follow Nyingma or Shingon or whatever, but it is unclear whether other Yogas have the same Bodhi Mind motivation or express it so strongly. One of the main things that sways me to Buddhism is not really whether there is an Atma or what it is, but again it is a moral statement about the importance of Bodhi Mind. Wisdom of Emptiness mixed with intense concern for the world of Form. That could perhaps be called a contradiction to start with, which is fine, since we are going to the center of duality, not either side.

Clear Light

9th August 2019, 20:25

Oh, but with regard to the Emptiness of Emptiness [1], and thus what if anything can be even Provisionally Posited about such Profound Negation, I would put it like this (for now at least) :

Our ultimate nature whilst being "unconditioned" (free from all reference points) is yet endowed with the Spontaneity of all the Buddha qualities such as Wisdom, Joy, Creativity (tsal) and Compassion

:heart:

[1] Rangtong-Shentong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangtong-Shentong)

Chester

11th August 2019, 09:08

Clear Light

11th August 2019, 10:42

For what its worth... in my own experience, I have come upon "something" that I cannot describe but once 'apprehended,' I found myself never the same. It happened in meditation and it seemed to occur when I was in that state one might say was of this emptiness.

Ever after I had this sense that I "knew" something... that I was something that actually cannot be when considered from the relative world. The Absolute?

Its like I had some sort of direct experience that stuck, changed me... and I don't mean I became some sort of "new, improved, morally driven, walk on water type enlightened being"... but its like, I could see, once apprehended, I couldn't undo it. Attempts to try seemed to bring experiences that always led me back. And sometimes these experiences are not so fun but always after they occur there's that knowing of having been foolish again.

Ah, FWIW Sammy, and to tell a story, LOL, *before* I had even heard of Spirituality (let alone Meditation / Paths / Enlightenment etc), totally out-of-the-blue and quite unexpectedly, some kind of "experience" seemed to happen and it was only *afterwards* (when the conceptual mind kicked back in) that there was an attempt to "explain" it, as in to rationalise it, because at that time I had no frame-of-reference for it ... but "something" had changed within ... thus to get to the chase (so-to-say) : The "search" began !!!

Now, of course, to each their own (so-to-say) but for whatever reasons, the terminology of Dzogchen (or the Great Perfection / Completeness) appealed the most because it describes such things as the "Natural State", the Nature of Mind, Rigpa, self-knowing-awareness ... and I felt as if what I was reading was pointing to the same (or similar) type of experience !

Indeed, as I am sure you're already aware, it is advised *not* to try and repeat certain *experiences* as it potentially interrupts the natural-flow-of-the-mind and can even become an obstacle eh ? ;)

From : A Spacious Path to Freedom (Snow Lion publications 1998)

The mind-itself is certainly empty and unestablished. Your mind is intangible like empty space. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

Empty and void, but without a nihilistic view, self-arisen, primordial wisdom is original, clear consciousness. Self-arisen and self-illuminating, it is like the essence of the sun. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

The primordial wisdom of awareness is certainly unceasing. Uninterrupted awareness is like the current of a river. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

The dispersing discursive thoughts are certainly not being grasped. This intangible dispersion is like a hazy sky. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

Recognize all appearances as self-appearing. Self-appearing phenomena are like reflections in a mirror. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

All signs are certainly released in their own state. Self-arising and self-releasing, they are like clouds in the sky. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

Best Wishes :heart:

Clear Light

11th August 2019, 15:19

From : A Spacious Path to Freedom (Snow Lion publications 1998)

The mind-itself is certainly empty and unestablished. Your mind is intangible like empty space. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

Empty and void, but without a nihilistic view, self-arisen, primordial wisdom is original, clear consciousness. Self-arisen and self-illuminating, it is like the essence of the sun. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

The primordial wisdom of awareness is certainly unceasing. Uninterrupted awareness is like the current of a river. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

The dispersing discursive thoughts are certainly not being grasped. This intangible dispersion is like a hazy sky. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

Recognize all appearances as self-appearing. Self-appearing phenomena are like reflections in a mirror. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

All signs are certainly released in their own state. Self-arising and self-releasing, they are like clouds in the sky. Is it like that or not? Observe your own mind!

Oh, but to avoid any confusion with other Paths and their own Terminology (or to at least to minimize it as much as possible) I've highlighted where the word "self" appears above because :

From : The Crystal and the Way of Light (Copyright © 2000)

The particular method of Dzogchen is called the Path of Self-Liberation, and to apply it nothing need be renounced, purified, or transformed. Whatever arises as one's karmic vision is used as the path. The great master Pha Tampa Sangye once said:

It's not the circumstances which arise as one's karmic vision that condition a person into the dualistic state; it's a person's own attachment that enables what arises to condition him.

If this attachment is to be cut through in the most rapid and effective way, the capacity for self-liberation inherent in the primordial state must be brought into play. The term self liberation should not, however, be taken as implying that there is some 'self or 'ego' there to be liberated. It is a fundamental assumption, as we have already said, at the Dzogchen level, that all phenomenon are devoid of self-nature and it is understood that no phenomena has inherent existence. Self-Liberation, in the Dzogchen sense, means that whatever manifests in the field of the practitioner's experience is allowed to arise just as it is, without judgment of it as good or bad, beautiful or ugly. And in that same moment, if there is no clinging, or attachment, without effort, or even volition, whatever it is that arises, whether as a thought or as a conceptualization of a seemingly external event, automatically liberates itself, by itself, and of itself. Practicing in this way, the seeds of the poison tree of dualistic vision never even get a chance to sprout, much less to take root and grow.

So the practitioner lives his or her life in an ordinary way, without needing any rules other than one's own awareness, always remaining in the primordial state through integrating that state with whatever arises as part of experience—with absolutely nothing to be seen outwardly to show that one is practicing. This is what is meant by self-liberation, this is what is meant by the name Dzogchen—which means Great Perfection—and this is what is meant by non-dual contemplation, or simply contemplation.

:sherlock:

Angels1981

11th August 2019, 15:28

Out of emptiness you create. It most likely meaning for that purpose alone. It helps to keep your mind free to distress you or to gain rest from overthinking but on the other side if you go into trance there are new age entities and demons that can teach you this without knowing and that is how they get inside of your head. I have done both ends.
The main reason I quieten my mind is to hear the voice of my heart and soul and yes it can be done. That is a way and a means to follow it. The heart and soul is pure love and apparently defends against the negative thinking anyway. So to have emptiness is to create loving things and clarity and a chance to receive messages from spirit that are beneficial for you in loving spiritual growth.
After you do this then you can use visualisation towards creating and that's why they say you are "still" in love.

greybeard

11th August 2019, 15:42

That is a very clear description of what is to be done or rather not done.
Who is doing anything anyway!!
Thanks Chris

Clear Light

11th August 2019, 21:28

That is a very clear description of what is to be done or rather not done.
Who is doing anything anyway!!
Thanks Chris

Oh, LOL, "Many A True Word Is Spoken In Jest" eh ? ;)

https://www.actualized.org/forum/uploads/monthly_2016_03/82a634c753f0c6872e98d717f93cb3e9.jpg.f47cef24b43b06c5942b71ef6fb8b056.jpg

shaberon

11th August 2019, 23:27

Ever after I had this sense that I "knew" something... that I was something that actually cannot be when considered from the relative world. The Absolute?

Yes, here again, despite many levels and interpretations, Buddhism will alloy you to the Absolute.

The early meditations develop Emptiness as well as meditation "With Images", or Sadguna Brahman. If progress is good, one eventually combines these and develops the final stage "Without Images" or Nirguna Brahman. These are the two forms of Brahman, the Absolute, With Time, and No Time.

In China, some of the very first Buddhist Transmissions was done by Fa Hsiang, who included the tenets of Nirakara meditation, or that which relates to Nirguna Brahman. His system was found to be too elaborate and too confusing, nobody could understand him, even after they wound up building a mansion like a Hall of Mirrors to try to explain it. This did not take root and I do not think this "component" of the Path entered China again. Much like why esoterism was "ear whispered" instead of published, no one to understand it.

Most of the phiiosophies and teachings are "Provisional" and it is something like they are internalized and practiced, until one is ready for another step. This might be something like learning how to make a shot in billiards or golf or something: if you are a beginner, you are going to try to memorize three or four verbal instructions and try to coordinate it with your hands and body. If you do it right, eventually you will quit thinking about the instructions, and the process has a natural flow.

Here, Buddhist practice has a fairly specific scheme about Yoga. It presumes experience with meditation which, at the simplest, may have been based on outer objects and ritual acts, or, may have taught these as symbolic for inner conditions. Some beings are incapable of doing anything else or going much deeper in the mind. However, some will be found who experience samadhi. Then, Yoga as such is aimed at those who enjoy samadhi and would be motivated to accomplish Nispanna or Completion Stage, or the equivalent of becoming a Bodhisattva. By this, I mean Accomplishment, not just someone who has been given permission on a Completion practice.

Buddha displays all of the Paramitas or Perfections of Prajnaparamita. They are all aspects of the Bodhisattva Path, however it is "reversible" until reaching the eighth stage. During this period of cultivation, one can still fail, or work under some kind of error, or make little progress. So we are talking about the difference between us and a Bodhisattva. And so most of the training will involve fusing the first six or seven Paramitas at once.

Union {yoga, nal jor ) means union with the dharmadhatu, the interior objects of the mind {manas), according to Buddhist Abhidharma theory; the ‘source of natures’ ( dharmodaya ) and the Absolute ‘Object’ (paramartha ) in Buddhist Tantra by means of Knowledge {jnana--gnosis--Vajrasattva).

So the Yoga is built on at least some prior knowledge and experience of gnosis.

The source of continuity is none other than the body and mind as they are. Although there is much more to the Dharmadhatu, the main mental objects in question are four skandhas, the basis or grounds for transformation. Dharmodaya and Paramartha pertain to Completion.

The fifth skandha, Vijnana or Awareness, is described as a neutral observer who really just collates information, by observing the other skandhas.

The first or Form Skandha is described as all sensory inputs joined together at a point inside the soft palate, called Brahma or Shanpa, the Entrance to Nirvana, related to Khecari or the sky and sky-goer. This is considered a "mental object".

The three skandhas are what would generally be interpreted as mind or personality, such as Feelings or Sentience (good/bad/neutral reaction to the inputs), Perception (memories, associations, "chair is a chair"), and Samsara, which is volition or the manner in which we project mental assemblies back through our mind into the environment.

So to do Yoga means I am not satisfied by philosophy or low power rites, I have some success with gnosis, mantra, an interest in samadhi and would want to prepare myself to do the real Pranayama and Completion Stage of full Bodhisattva nature.

Again, regardless of school, there is no method which is not fusing the Skandhas and six or seven Paramitas. That is why I find this "layer" of information to be the most important. I say this from the basis of having done a crude parallel of Completion Stage, since it is possible to try something similar by Hatha Yoga and "other methods", if one were to strip it down to perhaps a more shamanic Ego Death with Ecstasy, I have done thousands of those, at will, but with at most a kind of flimsy "copy/paste" of Buddhist patterns onto it. Without the actual "working gears", you do not get the protection or develop the wisdoms that real Buddhism requires.

If I had been able to get ahold of the explanations back then that I can, now, it would have been incredibly more useful. That is the strength on internet, it works great as a Dharma treasure chest, if properly sifted. That is also why I am trying to say this is not exactly a belief system, or something I copied out of a book, it actually is what it says it is, and is simply the linguistic attempt to describe something that is much more real and powerful and has the nature of a dance around the inexpressible. Safe and reliable is the pledge made to it.

And so to say it legitimately begins with Vajrasattva as Purification (non-duality) with respect to the Dharmadhatu (mental objects), then, what happens is, there is an adventure of Vajrasattva doing various activities and moods, and the meditator's mental objects are the basis of continuity for Buddha Families and other deities. That is why, in addition to the Five Skandhas, Vajrasattva is considered a Sixth Family. And so the primary Yoga teaching is Six Families.

It is accepted in an Uncommon way by Buston, Tson kha pa and others that you may consider Seven Families, which is roughly to say that the outcome or result of this training will be Completion Stage. In this case Vajradhara may be allowed as the Seventh, which is inherently the same as Kagyu Guru Yoga.

If I collate the most saturated explanation possible of the Bodhisattva Path for disciples, it will, even in the words of Rangtong Prasangika devotees, return the same format of Kagyu Guru Yoga, using Vajrasattva Purification, Guru Vajradhara, and Prajnaparamita as a deity. If I have that as a core, it also gives a taste of the four tantric empowerments that would be done in a real initiation. I would say this format of mediation can be developed gradually according to understanding, and, when pursued, directly uses one of the most general or universal standards which expands to incorporate any aspect of the teaching. When we go through the scriptures, one of the main speakers or performers will often be Vajradhara, but another one of the main scriptures is Prajnaparamita, who brings in Manjushri and the rest.

Here is a very good example. This is an image commissioned by a donor, who is at the bottom center, beside White Vajrasattva. At the top is Vajradhara between Tilo and Naro. Vajradhara is repeated as the larger central deity, having, over his head, the goddess Prajnaparamita having four arms and a Prajnaparamita Sutra in her hand. She is in a position called Pride of the Deity which is a powerful way to use them in Yoga. This is from the Drikung Kagyu and it is not hard to tell the person sees themself in a conversation with Vajrasattva, while Vajradhara is like a teacher of several other deity systems (or Completions), all of which have expanded from the overhead root of Prajnaparamita:

https://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/7/8/1/781.jpg

This style of Yoga is clear and concise because it stays with the same terminology as Prajnaparamita and the old Indian sadhanas. So for instance if I study Tara, she shares the language and meanings, but if I look at other branches like Nyingma or Shingon, things start looking different. If I look at this presentation in Sanskrit, it soon becomes evident that it does draw from the Vedas, Upanishads, Epics, and so forth, and Buddhist Yoga becomes sort of a giftwrap on an overall Indian package.

Vajradhara is usually Dark Blue or Twilight Sky or cloudless mind beginning to perceive Dharmakaya or reality-as-it-is.

The Dharmakaya itself does not teach, but uses Vajradhara, who is able to manifest paths of enlightenment or the different kinds of deity yoga.

So the "system of Vajradhara" is by definition that of universal, inner guru. It can be found in some way in almost all lineages, but is prominent and uncluttered in Kagyu. In order to have an understanding of the basic daily exercise as shown in the thangka, one must first understand Vajrasattva is Androgyne, Prajnaparamita and Avalokitehsvara, who does Purification certainly by any normal means like confess, confess, but on the subtle plane indicates non-duality. His purpose is a state of Gnosis. Furthermore, the Prajnaparamita herself is Mother of All Buddhas, which are in the body. Vajradhara is simply Adi Buddha, or, Swayambhu Adi Buddha of Nepal.

The Yoga figures are like a skeleton onto each part of which hangs an extremely profuse class of literature and practice, some of which is within the realm of what we can do, and some is more like information to be used by initiates. It works either at a basic level, or, takes any additional material one adds such as Elements, Families, Paramitas, etc., those are all intended to co-exist.

From experience, I do not want to cause my body to undergo untrained, raw, shamanical Revelations by "other methods" again, but to use this Yoga which is slower, methodical, and controlled. The way I am trying to explain it mostly resides in Nepal, Kagyu, and Sakya Ngor, along with what could be called the genocidally-exterminated part, which was a different cult of Tara than now seen in Tibet. This all stays very close to the same vocabulary, coherent to a Vikramasila and Ratnagiri style, those being some of the main esoteric colleges that were destroyed along with the larger ones like Nalanda and Taxila.

In terms of Adi Buddha or the Absolute itself, it is known as self-arising but our view to it is the center of Catuskoti:

It is

It isn't

It is and isn't

It neither is nor isn't

Nagarjuna calls these Four Extremes to Be Avoided and defines Madhyamika as the center between them. What Shentong says is this center has no natures other than its own. Therefor, any nature I try to give it conceptually, must be discarded, "neti, neti" it is not this or that, the four extreme views become falsified. The mind cannot conceive it.

greybeard

12th August 2019, 09:01

This reminds me of the quote.
"Form-formless-both- and Neither"
The head cant get that but it points well.

Thanks for your full knowledgeable posts shaberon
Chris

Clear Light

12th August 2019, 09:32

So the practitioner lives his or her life in an ordinary way, without needing any rules other than one's own awareness, always remaining in the primordial state through integrating that state with whatever arises as part of experience—with absolutely nothing to be seen outwardly to show that one is practicing. This is what is meant by self-liberation, this is what is meant by the name Dzogchen—which means Great Perfection—and this is what is meant by non-dual contemplation, or simply contemplation.

Now, as it happens my place-of-work has re-opened today after its annual "summer shutdown" and so I won't be participating or interacting with as much of what goes on here at Avalon except perhaps at the weekends ... some of the threads I do follow post-by-post but my offerings will likely be much reduced however I will be here "in Spirit" (so-to-say) ... :heart:

https://musicbus.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/back-to-work.png

Luxlucis

12th August 2019, 13:41

Agape

12th August 2019, 17:28

Found somewhat contemporary art work on the topic of Prajnaparamita

Stunnigly cracked light sculpture (https://mymodernmet.com/paige-bradley-expansion-sculpture-now-available/)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPKBDPWOtGk

....it’s through the cracks that Light shines through ...

shaberon

12th August 2019, 18:33

I have been meditating for a long time. Maybe to some meditators the 'emptiness' idea is useful, but I doubt that many would know how to sctually achieve it. I usually meditate on the present moment. The idea of meditating on emptiness is one of expectation, and that would be futile when meditating.

Yes, many have difficulty with Emptiness, that is why there are many "Provisional" or "Gradual" stages. So for example, if you go in a Kagyu Dharma Center, they just read Heart Sutra. They won't say anything about Avalokiteshvara and Prajnaparamita. Neither Emptiness nor deities are described, you just start doing it; and so if you are curious, you have to start digging.

I am not sure what is meant by expectation? I haven't really picked that up from anything.

Prajnaparamita is Sherab which is a Tibetan class of deities that increase one's faculties. There are very few of these.

Emptiness is Prajnaparamita at Sutra and Tantra levels. She is Mother of All Buddhas. The motivation is to make Complete Manifest Buddha. This means to perform Samadhi at par with the Tathagatas which means equal to All Buddhas. It manifests the Absolute (http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Seven_riches_of_the_absolute):

enlightened body
enlightened speech
enlightened mind
enlightened qualities
enlightened activity
dharmadhatu
primordial wisdom

So we are well off to think of Seven Families, this pattern basically underlies all of the systems. Yoga is aimed at those to whom Dharmadhatu means something or who "get" Emptiness or Gnosis. Empty is a non-dual, no ego state, half of an Androgyne which is like a fuel used to manifest a Sevenfold Absolute. By Absolute here means Final Enlightenment, whereas the Path is those things that produce Enlightenment, Seven Jewels (http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Seven_elements_for_enlightenment). The Grounds for continuity on this path are body and mind as-they-are.

Since the Seven are Five Buddhas of the Skandhas, plus Vajrasattva and Vajradhara, that is the elegance of Vajradhara Guru Yoga. It easily works as a guide to all the Higher Yogas and the Absolute state of Buddhahood in the original language. They do the same thing in Nyingma but it is very Tibetan. I like Emptiness but I find Tibetan very difficult.

If one understands Prajnaparamita and this Sevenfold pattern, it is like a fractal seed for everything else.

Clear Light

12th August 2019, 23:50

I have been meditating for a long time. Maybe to some meditators the 'emptiness' idea is useful, but I doubt that many would know how to sctually achieve it. I usually meditate on the present moment. The idea of meditating on emptiness is one of expectation, and that would be futile when meditating.

Ah, well I guess it really depends upon whether or not you're coming from a Dharmic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma) framework eh ?

For a consideration of what might be involved with regards to "Emptiness", there's a useful PDF called the Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness (http://promienie.net/images/dharma/books/tsultrim-gyamtso_meditation-on-emptiness.pdf) by Ven. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rimpoche (If there's an interest in Tibetan Buddhism [1]) :

Stage 1 : The Sravaka Meditation on Not-Self
Stage 2 : The Cittamatra Approach
Stage 3 : The Svatantrika Approach
Stage 4 : The Prasangika Approach
Stage 5 : The Emptiness of Other (Shentong) Approach

The idea of a series of meditation practices on a particular aspect of the Buddha's teachings is that by beginning with one's first rather coarse common sense understanding, one progresses through increasingly subtle and more refined stages until one arrives at complete and perfect understanding. Each stage in the process prepares the mind for the next in so far as each step is fully integrated into one's understanding through the meditation process.

What I will say is that "Emptiness" certainly does not mean Nothingness, as in a complete Void, because that is the extreme of Nihilism ... but again this actually needs to be contemplated from within a Dharmic context if its Meaning is to be realized eh ? ;)

Seeing that everything is self-perfected from the very beginning,
the disease of striving for any achievement comes to an end of its own accord,
and just remaining in the natural state as it is,
the presence of non-dual contemplation continuously, spontaneously arises.

[Excerpt from The Six Vajra Verses]

. : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : .

[1] Furthermore in the Nyingma tradition there are the Nine yanas (https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas) which are essential to appreciate alongside the subject of Emptiness !

shaberon

14th August 2019, 05:28

Stage 1 : The Sravaka Meditation on Not-Self
Stage 2 : The Cittamatra Approach
Stage 3 : The Svatantrika Approach
Stage 4 : The Prasangika Approach
Stage 5 : The Emptiness of Other (Shentong) Approach

Yes, this is quite fundamental, and is why although Shentong "clicks" with me personally, it is not necessarily the best way to present or lead in to the subject, and following the stages in basically that order is the real approach. That is the way I got it.

This is a very succinct quote from Mipham Rinpoche from the 19th century Rime' or non-sectarian movement:

"The prayer in seven lines is root of all these sadhanas.

Within the Ground, these lines denote
The seven kinds of consciousness;

Upon the Path, they represent
The seven branches of enlightenment;

And when the Fruit is won, they are perfected
As the seven sacred riches of the ultimate."

Firstly he is saying this with respect to a simple Nyingma verse that has no Buddha names or mantric content, which to me makes it difficult to learn an additional verse to represent the meaning he describes.

Instead, since the Catuskoti is known as Jewel of the Doctrine, then, the explanation is Ratna Gotra Vibhaga, which is something like Jewel Seed and Lineage, and it gives Seven Mysteries or Vajra Pada. Fortunately, this is not something unrelated, because it has the Three Jewels of Refuge, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But then it contains elements that mean the same as Five Buddha Families, which, in expanded tables, are also for Refuge. And then it adds more elements similar to Vajrasattva--Vajradhara. So I can just say it in seven lines like a mnemonic, or, it could be an extended Refuge, and, even better, it directly attaches to Mipham's explanation:

Buddha
Dharma
Sangha
Dhatu
Bodhi
Guna
Karma

And so we notice he has said the grounds are "seven kinds of consciousness", which would seem to fly in the face of Asta Vijnana or Eight Consciousnesses, however in this case, our argument is that the eighth or Alaya consciousness is not really in man.

This means five senses, plus the Mano-vijnana which is more or less the same as Vijnana Skandha, plus Klista-manas which is Defiled Mind. Although this is from Lankavatara Sutra and may seem new, abstract, or technical, those two minds will be found the same as the first two of the Four Noble Truths.

Note also what the sevenfold pattern is the root of: all sadhanas.

The worst possible thing about the RGV words is they could be slightly out of order compared to a normal list of 1-7 Families, but, if you just follow the meaning, it is the same. So then if I understand by "Path", he does not mean the stages or degrees of the Path, but, just as the senses and minds are simultaneously present and continuous, the Seven Jewels are simultaneously present and continuous, and they are what increases on those stages. Here, we might say the same for Seven Paramitas, even if Mipham does not explicitly state this, the meaning is intended to be adjunct.

The Fruit is the Seven Buddhas, Seven Families, or Seven Wisdoms.

If one starts putting together the Seven Mysteries, Perfections, Ground, Path, and Fruit, then you know the basis upon which any spiritual practice is done. It really is the "container". I don't know if it can be emphasized enough how accurate and thorough this is. Extremely useful for even considering trying anything.

Agape

15th August 2019, 05:41

Clear Light

15th August 2019, 11:19

Whether our Way ( or Fate) are predestined or whether we are choosing them consciously and only thus; you say; “I have a plan for my Way”,

truly the Way has been described well only by those who walked it
sages of all ages walked different Ways
to meet -roughly- at the same point

Who cares it was on Mt Kailash, Mt Shashta or Mt Zion

“the local centre of the Universe”

The Way of One who walks on his own will
out of the taught concepts and dogmas
is the only Way
to experience “Pure Mind” or “Empty Mind”
free of languages and programming
Walking alone for long enough
the trouble of “self” or “many selves” dissolves
so do doubts, disputes, arguments

even the very idea of duality loses its meaning

Perhaps the Way can be taught to ready individuals
but eventually the willingness and courage to walk
has to be found from within.

So called “scholars” will always argue about
the Plan of the Way
after someone has walked it

🌟😀🌟

Ah, or perhaps in other words, LOL, so you can "talk the talk" but can you "walk the walk" ? ;)

"When words and thoughts are silenced,
the universe blossoms forth -- real and whole and one -- and words
become what they were always meant to be: the score, not the
music; the menu, not the food; the signpost, not the journey's end."

Anthony de Mello, S.J.

Because in our culture we overvalue the intellect, we imagine
that to become enlightened demands extraordinary intelligence.
In fact, many kinds of cleverness are just further obscurations.
There is a Tibetan saying: “If you are too clever, you could
miss the point entirely.”

Patrul Rinpoche said: “The logical mind seems interesting,
but it is the seed of delusion.” People can become obsessed
with their own theories and miss the point of everything. In
Tibet we say: “Theories are like patches on a coat, one day they
just wear off.”

Glimpse After Glimpse : Sogyal Rinpoche

:heart:

greybeard

15th August 2019, 13:06

What is a challenge for me is the sheer number of "ways".
I can not help but think this is a making complicated something quite simple.
Im not saying this assumption is correct or even needing to be addressed.

Taking what Jesus was believed to have said to the point where the learned disagreed on what he actually meant.
" The Father and I are one" is simple enough yet-- screeds--volumes of explanation as to what he meant.
And we need clergy to keep us right on these interpretations.--oh Yeah!!!
How many christian churches all claiming they got it right!!

Whilst I know little of other faiths I suspect the same applies.
The person loves to learn all about.

"Be still and know that I am God"---seems to suggest meditating to me.
What else is required?
I accept that knowledge gives a firm base to ones belief, just the thought as progress is made in uncovering Truth--the pathless path get narrower and narrower till all concepts, dogma, knowledge, even belief system, is let go of and then what remains?
"That Thou Art"
Just having a little rant--smiling
Chris

shaberon

15th August 2019, 23:01

What is a challenge for me is the sheer number of "ways".
I can not help but think this is a making complicated something quite simple.
Im not saying this assumption is correct or even needing to be addressed.

What else is required?

"That Thou Art"

Yes, that is what I found, when I became utterly bogged down in trying to do something that would somehow unify Mayan and Persian ideas with the Egyptians, and so on. Intellectually interesting, but not worthwhile as a practice.

The mantra "That Thou Art" is a translation of Tat Tvam Asi.

This is abbreviated as the term "Tattva", meaning an element or aspect of reality.

Besides meditation, there are essentially two requirements:

Manas + Tra = Mantra, protection of the mind

Tattva + Mantra = Tantra, continuity

These are the underlying definitions required to accomplish the goal in our school, Complete Manifest Buddha. That is why this is not a religion, it is a practice, a method with a defined goal which can be, and has been, achieved.

It does not matter that much whether one is a Cittamatra, Prasangika, etc., or what kind of sect one may be linked to, they are all working towards that same goal, this is the meaning of Mahayana.

Internally, this consists of so many thousands of things that it is very complex, all used to increase an intensity called Mahamudra, beyond word, thought, and concept. This is what "actually matters" and is very palpable. I'm about as Nyingma as a stump. I have a hard time with Tibetan, they have hundreds of their own scriptures and their own particular way of administering rites. I have only ever met one Nyingma adherent that I know of, however, this was a Dzogchen master who spent half his life in caves.

In terms of Mahamudra, the other disciples in the hall are like people I could "talk to" about it, many of them can probably get the concept and maybe even feel a little bit of it, but the master was one who as soon as I walked in, is the one you can "know with" about it. Having nothing to do with sensory input or any words used. There is nothing I can say to this man that he doesn't know since he is "already there". That is the only way I can try to explain having "tasted a stage of Mahamudra" that the ordinary human never will, but you can always sense its presence.

Therefor there is only one way to do what we are trying to talk about, but it is the Bodhisattvas who are actually doing it, not us. And so we are running 84,000 algorithms that re-program "person" to "Bodhisattva". It is something like I may be intercepted somewhere weird like 51,480 and then if I pay attention, I can fairly easily settle into the main thirty-seven where training takes place, from stabilizing at least some of the mental chatter and also interpreting it as nerves.

The Absolute is defined and so it is really a matter of Vajrasattva. Or even with a non-deity approach, Vishuddhimagga is a very old system of Tattva Purification, which will do something similar, starting with a linear approach of six or eight elements and then spinning or mixing them into a massive blend of combinations. I cannot remember if it has any type of mantra, it may be an exercise you just do.

Vajrasattva is like that, but more intense, the mind of the meditator beginning to experience Voidness, which is Prajnaparamita, which is then accurate to say she grows in stages and acquires other names. So instead of thirty-seven elements of the environment or surroundings, it is like Vishuddhimagga but using thirty-seven elements or Tattva of bodhi mind.

If I use the same basic mantra, Tat Tvam Asi, I get something like a wormhole with planetary systems spewing out, because of training "With Form" in conjunction with Emptiness.

Other "ways" in the world at large are viewed by us as seeking rebirth in a higher world, or seeking Moksha or permanently-still Nirvana, which would be different purposes.

Agape

16th August 2019, 17:57

The easiest yet deeply profound understanding of the Universe that occurred to me spontaneously many years ago but it’s worthy to mind self of times to times is that from phenomenological perspective which is very close to the essence of Buddhist logicians (...anyway..) was that the Universe is A Happening,
one time Event you may say

Or as the Vedas say, one without a second.

Time evolution progressing from ..
another Time, one Universe transponding itself
to another perhaps

from the Time 0

Resonant fields, strong and weak
reflecting from the super fast stream of minutest particles of time
like giant mirrors of space form what we call dimensions or space time fields.
We are capable of predicting only small number of those surrounding us anyway since their parameters may differ from ours beyond our concepts of understanding.

Sorry I drifted off.

In either case it helps to understand that no matter how many repetitions of planetary cycles we have been here calling this another loop of cyclic existence

or should we have spent the time in any other samsara anyway

we are really living in one Happening
of this particular Universe,
time always moves forth on a Spiral

from all that can be also deduced that
we can not logically predict so called “everything”

but we can atune ourselves to different
resonant fields so also different speed
of our own transpondence ..

to another Universe

Hope I’ve explained it well

🙏😀🙏

shaberon

18th August 2019, 20:55

but we can atune ourselves to different
resonant fields so also different speed
of our own transpondence ..

to another Universe

This seems pretty close to why there are different mantras and deities.

What this means, or, why it is at least somewhat scientific, is that Void, or Akash, responds to certain sounds in repeatable and sustainable ways. Therefor, with the right interaction, it reveals the true transcendent forms of deities, which, compared to our plane at least, are permanent and indestructible, and give various boons.

The main worlds involved in training are not really other manifested universes, but are called Form, Desire, and Formless.

Form contains this or any other cosmos, and I guess what we do is "wrap it up". Aside from agreeing that manifestation is perhaps a looping cycle, and that any world system is inhabited, there is not much to do with trying to track down the ultimate origin or future of Form.

The operative agent is really Desire, which can send us to a Form world, or heaven or hell, on purpose or otherwise.

Our best bet is to Purify it, which means any ordinary modes of cleanliness, confession, etc., but on a closer look, it specifically means non-duality in each realm of consciousness. To Purify it is to release it from the usual samsaric bonds and place it in a condition of Divine Desire.

The real inner teachings take place in Akanistha, which is the highest part of Desire. This is often translated as Pure Lands. That makes sense, because it is invisible without Purification. Otherwise, if by discipline alone, one made the mind sharp enough to perceive this state of mental matter, it would enter a world of pleasure slaves.

When preliminary meditation speaks of going to the Dharmadhatu (realm of only mental objects), it intends to do so in Akanistha (purity). So we have to learn how to get there and stabilize it. That is the only way to get Buddha's wisdom which is taught to the Bodhisattvas. This is really so vital that a great deal of practitioners see rebirth in a Pure Land as the overall goal for their whole life, which is not wrong, only slightly incomplete when compared to the entire Path.

The same thing is shown in Lankavatara Sutra and many other places, there is the summoning of Dharmadhatu as a Treasure Tower, and then teachings are given to Bodhisattvas.

The Pure Lands themselves are mostly organized according to the Buddha Families. These Families are always a type of wisdom resulting from purification of a given skandha, or mental defilement and disturbing emotion. All are necessary, but it is entirely likely that a person would have an affinity for one of the particular spheres. "Resonant field" is perhaps a decent way of describing these, since each one will be heavily themed with a certain color and style of objects.

From that point, one faces the Void and melts the Buddhas to use the Formless world. Along with removing the illusion of time, it removes the illusion of space, which becomes a zero or non-dimension. Nothing to measure. Nowhere to set a border on what fills all space and perceives no "other" to measure a distance to.

This involves the removal of color, which comes from a root word meaning "to conceal". And so if we look carefully, the sadhanas include the method of addressing the compound color, Green, and splitting it into its primary components. One slowly "peels" physical light and increases perception of self-existent light. If one had Akanistha consciousness and decided to look at physical light, it appears black. In its true form, self-existent luminosity is the Absolute Object, which Tibetans call Clear Light. Here, the term used in the original teachings is Prabhasvara, which does not say clear. It is light which has Purity, and also has the connotation of Royalty. However it does need to be distinguished from White. So it is not really wrong to call it clear, but the Sanskrit makes a different emphasis.

In most aspects, then, the purification of desire to enter the Formless is a negative, inversion, reversal, inside-out, removal of any other experience.

I am forced to testify this is a fact in Nature, more useful to me than facts as statistics and piles of objective information. Sadly, I decided to abort the process in order to be a normal working person. All that did was try to kill me, so, not a very satisfying decision. I am trying to make the right opportunity to "re-launch" it, and so that is why all the heavy emphasis on what we might call provisional teachings or training stages. I am sure that right now I could walk out in the woods and become one of the Hindu "forest hermits" who lives in a transcendental state. Instead, I am trying to get to the "workhorse" of the Path; there is a major gap between "basic information" and the fact that you can easily find some of the highest practices. There is a huge middle part, which is extremely relevant, since myself and many people are in a position to go beyond the most basic parts, and the highest parts either won't work, or will be very dangerous, without good training.

In the main, this refers to Vajrasattva and Prajnaparamita. They intercept all the philosophical definitions and fuse them to mantra practice. There are not that many mantras one should really do without the transmission. But there are some, as long as one follows closely in accord to the teachings to the best of one's ability. The door to this is open, so is Manjushri, and so is the system of Tara--Avalokiteshvara. And so for instance if I know Vajrasattva, he is able to "take the form of" Manjushri, which makes Orange Manjuvajra. Or, if I make him a real "union of wisdom and skillful means", then by definition, Prajnaparamita and Avalokiteshvara are his two halves. Fortunately for us, Avalokiteshvara emanates Tara, whose chief characteristic is to arrive swiftly. There are a lot of Taras in Akanistha and so forth that I might not be able to meet today, but, if I am interested in repairing my subtle body, this is what by definition she does, and so as long as I am doing it right, there is definitely a way she will come to me, as a much more powerful assistant than plain or mantra-less meditation.

So if one seeks to enhance meditation, then, in Mahayana, one is best off by going to those deities. If one has a fairly knowledgeable background in Hinduism, then there is a good idea of many more of them, since all of them have been made Buddhist converts. But you see how even our basic ones are highly-interlocking, so if we say Tara is Prajna or Female Buddha who attained realization in a prior universe, then Prajnaparamita is also Tara. Yes, but she has different names and forms when acting in various capacities. The Prajnaparamita applies to a type of central element or our perception of Emptiness itself, to which she eventually surrenders her personal name into the stages called:

Dharma Dhatu Ishvari

Akasha Dhatu Ishvari (Dakini)

Vajra Dhatu Ishvari

Kama Dhatu Ishvari

That is why teaching Dakini as something we can casually pick up seems extremely premature. If we contain some kind of impure energy, she will just cut out our heart and mind and laugh at us. She is going to do whatever we are "serious" about. It seems much more important, then, to look at the Dharmadhatvishvari who provides all the definitions of the Families and so forth so we will have proper protection when we are ready for Dakini. So again by definition, Dharmadhatvishvari refers to Mental Objects and the process of summoning and stabilizing the Dharmadhatu itself. This is what is meant by Yoga, it is, so to speak, the somewhat missing middle engine that conveys us from outer or non-mantric meditation up to Dakini.

Yoga has no other definition in Buddhism. It requires knowledge and ability based in the preliminary teachings and covers many years' worth of practice to insure capability for the Highest Yoga or strictly initiatic practices that use Dakini.