Why are we lying ?

[Iyakum]

Why are we lying?
I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?

We lie in fear, afraid of what others might learn about us. We are lying because we do not want to hurt someone we love. We lie to protect others, also we lie out of greed, envy, jealousy.

But every time we lie this fear grows bigger, we lie to ourselves, sometimes so often and over a long time, so that we someday even convinced that the lie was the truth. The more we lie, the more we have to remember the lies, but as everyone knows, the truth comes out at some point.

Only then what, then we invent a new lie or break everything together? ...

[Bill Ryan]

Everyone tries to solve problems, every day. It's at the very core of human existence, and always has been.

But sometimes, a person might not think things through very well. A poor solution can very often become the next problem, and maybe an even bigger one.

So someone who's broke might commit a robbery, or embezzle their company. Someone who's depressed hits the bottle, or hard drugs, and might become addicted. Enraged having discovered their partner's having an affair, someone might turn to violence. None of these solutions are very good ideas.

And that's why people sometimes lie. It might seem the easiest way to solve a problem in real time: maybe a tiny one, maybe a significant one. But the rules remain the same: after that, they have another problem, and it could be a major one.

:flower:

[Peter UK]

Why are we lying?
I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?



There are lies that enter the moral domains which might be considered white lies. These are lies you tell someone in order to prevent further suffering and pain through which no further purpose would be served by them knowing differently. I would say these are judged by the intent behind them but it's a risky strategy and could backfire so the motives have to be of the highest order.

[Iyakum]

I agree with Bill. Lies to solve problems no matter how big or small they are. Although it should work it is only an interim solution. I think the more time we spend, the more difficult it will be for us to lie.
Only as Bill said, none is a solution, it could degenerate even more than help, even if the lie is still so small or was.

[Iyakum]

Why are we lying?
I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?



There are lies that enter the moral domains which might be considered white lies. These are lies you tell someone in order to prevent further suffering and pain through which no further purpose would be served by them knowing differently. I would say these are judged by the intent behind them but it's a risky strategy and could backfire so the motives have to be of the highest order.

Thats the question. How will it end, if someone use the solution of liyng, of course it´s a risky strategy and as Peter UK wrote the backfire will show how it´s end.

[RogeRio]

This may seem like a bold subject, but it's of fundamental importance.

First, should be remembered that (plants and animals) nature is competitive as we know it, and both, to escape from predator or fool a prey, nature provides a means for (prey and predator) to deceive one another in a nature context where humans it's half vegetable, half animal, half human, half ET, etc. (just a way of saying)

Second, in advanced stages of consciousness, mistakes are no longer possible to happen. Since the intention, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and the consequent actions are (naturally) seen as a single block, and thus, any Distortion is soon perceived, so that, it's no useful lying, disguising, concealing or omitting anything at all, because everything became clear from the beginning to the end.

In this case, I refer to those who are already experiencing the process of "Desperticity", that is, if it's not yet fully awake, it's awakening up, and one of the fundamentals of this process is to solve all problems of self-corruption.

----

Ethically speaking, the thread have well portrayed the issue of self-corruption in the following phrases, where we could (ethically) criticize that there is some lack of sincerity, or authenticity, but could be caused by a good intention.



We lie in fear, afraid of what others might learn about us. We are lying because we do not want to hurt someone we love. We lie to protect others, also we lie out of greed, envy, jealousy.


Often, this intention of sparing the other is necessary, because not everyone is prepared to look at certain things as they really are, and no showing a truth to whom is not ready to assimilate it could be a wise thing, if the true can generate misunderstanding or even a unnecessary trauma.

Anyway, if the truth is always relative, the lie is also relative ..

[Deux Corbeaux]

The tricky thing with lying, for the good or the evil, is that one has to remember the lie (why and when).
If you think you have to lie “for the better”, I think It’s wiser to be silent.

If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything. (Mark Twain?)

Sadly enough it’s true that when you mess-up your present, you will be the slave of your future.

[Iyakum]

Deux Corbeaux
wise words you write. I asked the question to learn what exactly the meaning lies that we lie. It is also important for me to learn from others and their experiences. Sometimes, I have thoughts that are perfectly normal for other users. Only before I publicly give in a conversation something of me that testifies to ignorance, I prefer to ask in the forum. I have been carrying the question "why we are lying" for a very long time, today I remembered it and that's why I asked the question. I send a temporary thank you to all those who have so far made the effort to answer me.

[Chester]

When I was almost six years old, my mother was stopped by a policeman. While speaking with him, she told the policeman that we had only been living in Dallas for a few weeks (when I knew it was more like a few months). I was shocked. As she drove off, I asked her why she told the policeman what we both knew was untrue. She told me that what she did was called a "white lie."

That was the day I learned that white lies were "OK." Over the course of the next several decades, my decision as to what should be considered a white lie expanded. Simultaneously I also ended up dealing with addictions that, of themselves, created great difficulties for others and myself.

At one point I sought help and found it via what is known as a "12 step program." That program emphasized how important self honesty would be with regards to my recovery (and my ability to remain sober). I learned the phrase, "rigorous honesty." I had to adopt this specific operational protocol to become (and remain) sober. Sadly, there's a bad side to it. I can be "too open" and I can be "too honest." I also have trouble dealing with folks who aren't fully honest (which means most folks). I still find myself (at times) not being fully honest with myself and still, in the smallest of ways, with others. I then berate myself for failing.

In every single case I find one, single common denominator. That which we call "ego." And to be clearer, I would point to that "lower self" that's all wrapped up in everything I can't take with me when this physical body passes and all the things I think are important that other people perceive about me. This is why I find myself lying to others and/or myself.

[Victoria]

Thank you so much for posting this, Iyakum! I think about this a lot and keep returning to wonder if the spirit or mind would have any reason to lie, were it not confined by the material.

Having been a very shy and private person most of my life, I think I have lied since early childhood to preserve or widen the barrier between myself and others.
Fear, I think is a big part of it, especially when I was young, but the feeling of not wanting to be controlled and resenting infringement in my own personhood and choices was the usual reason as I got older.
...until I realized it was self-defeating, uncaring and pointless as a young adult...then when confronted with questions I did not want to answer, like Deux Corbeaux pointed out, silence seemed better. I thought, well there's
a good solution!

Finally, I dated someone very unusual who told me very early on in knowing him that lies by omission were still lies. :o It began an 'unraveling' for me of trying harder to be truthful being cognizant in the moments I feel compelled to hide... accepting myself and others as they are... being willing to share without fear...because in the end, that is really all I have to offer in this world... a sharing of experiences, viewpoints and a growing appreciation for everything and everyone around me.

As I have gotten older, I feel more and more that one can choose to serve self or serve others, but one cannot pursue their mission to help others and pursue truth in the world, if it doesn't begin with truth at the self level.

One of the last interactions I had with a family member who may be possessed (referenced in another thread), was to hear her say about me to the rest of the family and anyone else who would listen, "She is a liar. She has always been a liar."
It hit me in my soul.

[Bill Ryan]

"She is a liar. She has always been a liar."
It hit me in my soul.

Oooooof! I really felt that.

:heart:

So sorry that happened. That's the kind of thing that's kind of hard to 'unhear' — once someone's been so crass and insensitive as to actually say it.

[Michi]

Iyakum you covered most "reasons" why people are lying.
Lies can indeed become a very loooong curved road.

One additional big problem arises when one fights vehemently for lies of others.
These can develop into witch-hunts.

The road to freeing oneself from lies such as to be true to one self includes not acting on rumours and doing one's own diligent research.

One interesting thing I recall, we were advised during my military service, to wait 24 hours before writing a report on a fellow comrade in order to filter out exaggerated additions.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

To add - it all comes down to Intent for me. What is the intention behind the lie (or behind anything)? The energy behind intention is what gets registered by the soul, and what we ultimately judge about ourselves (when the time comes). If when telling a lie the intent behind it is benevolent, in service to another, to defend them or protect them from harm, then that matters. If the intention is malicious, selfish, or ego-driven, then that's something else, and the difference matters very much.

[RogueEllis]

One interesting thing I recall, we were advised during my military service, to wait 24 hours before writing a report on a fellow comrade in order to filter out exaggerated additions.

That should be protocol for most institutions.

I lie to protect. And yet, I remember the lies told to protect me and I am resentful. So who am I really protecting?

I struggle with lies by memory loss. I don't mean to lie, I just can't remember. I've had ECT done. I believe that's played a huge part in my mental capabilities.

[Chester]

To add - it all comes down to Intent for me. What is the intention behind the lie (or behind anything)? The energy behind intention is what gets registered by the soul, and what we ultimately judge about ourselves (when the time comes). If when telling a lie the intent behind it is benevolent, in service to another, to defend them or protect them from harm, then that matters. If the intention is malicious, selfish, or ego-driven, then that's something else, and the difference matters very much.

I wonder what it matters when parents tell their children there's a Santa Clause... I was told that and when I found out, I recall not being very happy with my mother who was the one who played this Santa Clause game. I don't think she did that to be malicious, selfish, or ego-driven and I don't think she thought about her intent. It was a "cultural thing" that parents did when and where I was raised.

And this is the question I have about "intent." How would any one person ever really know how wise, ethical and/or moral their intent really is? Its really only subjectively determined, yes?

Here's a great example of how this can backfire. My father had a child with my step-mother when I was 20 years old. A year later she was dead because of pancreatic cancer and 3 months later, my father committed suicide. My half brother was adopted by my step-mother's mother who lived many states away. Years went by and I was, for the first time since ours Dad's death, able to see my half brother in the flesh when he was 12 years old. Then five years later he came to visit me and my family (as I had a wife and two sons at that point).

We were driving in my car when the conversation went towards our father. And somewhere along the way I asked him how he was doing... how he had reconciled as to the tragedy of how he died.

I heard silence and then glanced in the rear view mirror and saw shock on my half-brother's face. I pulled over and we talked. It was at that moment I learned, because he told me, that he had always been told Dad died of a heart attack. I saw my half-brother have to suddenly come to grips with the fact he had been lied to by the people he trusted the most.

And worse, a few days later after he returned home, I was confronted by his mother's side of the family as to why I had to tell him the truth. Not only did they fail to acknowledge their own fault in not coordinating the lie with me but worse (and the actual point), they lied. Perhaps they realized I probably would not have gone along with it and worse, I might have made sure my half-brother knew the truth from as early as he would ever ask. But what surprised me the most was that when I spoke with their family representative, I was told this - [paraphrased] - "How could you possibly have told him the truth? We just assumed you had enough sense to know this."

Amazing.

And of course, this was the last time I spoke with any of them from that side of the family except when his grandmother (and the one who originally adopted him), at age 95, and clearly no longer remembering all this, spoke with me in the kindest way just before she passed on.

Back to my father's death. If my half-brother ever obtained a death certificate for our father (as I have done), he would have seen "cause of death = suicide."

Lies, when the truth actually comes out, always causes more harm than if the truth had always been made available. Always

But think about all the above. As complicated as it all was and as justified (from certain pints of view it may have been), imagine if we all grew up in a world that simply and only always spoke the truth? Imagine how a world like that might also be populated with folks who were honest with themselves? Just imagine.

[East Sun]

Sometimes it's better to not tell someone that their Father or Mother committed suicide
to prevent pain.

[thepainterdoug]

East sun/ i do understand and appreciate you assessment. however, to prevent pain is to prevent what actually is. And so why stop there? as hard as it seems, the pain straight on could be less harmful than the truth withheld. why not continue to spare pain in all other aspects of their life ?.
i think the problem is how we name things, bring meaning to good or bad. we are a slave to thoughts

[Caliban]

Major lies as discussed above are ultimately damaging. Children deserve to know the truth, even if, at a young age they're told a disorted version to protect their growing minds. Later, they should be given the dignity of the full truth.

But you have to lie now and then in this world. How about dealing with the irrationality of a huge company and a nameless faceless customer service rep on the phone, trying to win some results? Or--do you want to tell the "whole truth" to every cop that stops you, often for no good reason? To your boss, in some instances? No, I don't think many of us do want to give persons in positions of authority the whole truth about our intentions or our actions. This is where "lying" becomes protecting yourself and your loved ones.

And even with friends sometimes--do we tell them the "whole" truth? Or do we sometimes leave out details, for whatever reason, things we don't want them to know. They call that dissimulation.

The basis of a deep lasting relationship, with your lover, your closest friends and family is about openness. That doesn't mean you have to tell them everything but without truth it's a waste of time. With others, out there in the world, why should we tell them the truth--if they can use it against us?

[O Donna]

All art forms to one degree or another have the element of lying/ deception at it's root. And in a mutual way, life intimates art and art intimates life.

As above, so below.

https://in5d.com/images/ouroboros.jpg

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Lies, when the truth actually comes out, always causes more harm than if the truth had always been made available. Always

As with everything it depends on the situation, because there's always going to be exceptions, but in general, I tend to agree. That was really tough on you and your family Sammy. It's a difficult one to call. But even when things do come out badly, it still comes down to intention.

Let's say you have two people who each tell the same identical white lie, resulting in the exact same effect - the person goes along with it. But with one the lie was told innocently, to shield that person from harm. The other was told with secret cunning, with manipulation in mind down the road. These are the same on the surface, but very different underneath. And it's what's underneath that counts, the intent that matters – ethically speaking. Intention behind one's words and actions leaves indelible marks on the soul.

Of course, good intentions don't always equal good outcomes, as you have seen. If it all goes wrong, has unforeseen negative effects, as it did with your father's secret, there's no bad karma on the soul, let's say, because the suicide lie (I'm assuming) was told with integrity, with protection in mind. But someone got hurt. What lessons did that teach your mother's side of the family? Perhaps prudence, perhaps forethought, perhaps the virtues of just pure honesty? Perhaps to open the heart and entrust another by sharing hard truths? Your half-brother on the other hand, who probably felt deeply betrayed by the lie, had his own lessons to grapple with. Perhaps how to trust, or just how to forgive.

Everything in life is lessons, in receiving them and handing them out to others, even when we don't realise it's happening.

[RogeRio]

The basis of a deep lasting relationship, with your lover, your closest friends and family is about openness. That doesn't mean you have to tell them everything but without truth it's a waste of time. With others, out there in the world, why should we tell them the truth--if they can use it against us?

the final question it's what I said (post # 6) about "nature competition" (they can use it against us)
the (openness) counterpart of nature competition, it's the (inteligent) idea about "nature cooperation".

many competitions, as a matter of fact, can be part of evolutionary cooperations, if you could see the whole process involved

but I think the point of this thread, it's about the (Start) Intention cause, as it a malicious (lie) or a kind of ingenuity surrounded by doubts.

ethically, it's very different a naive and well intentioned perception of reality (here and now), rather than a expert bad intentioned perception of the (temporary) ingenuity of others (that I would like reinforce here also using the term Ignorance).

For further thought pourposes, I leave a tip:
- the competition always have a finished with one winner, but the cooperations always goes ahead with everyone winnering (or at least with nobody losing) !

[Bill Ryan]

Sometimes it's better to not tell someone that their Father or Mother committed suicide to prevent pain.

Actually — although I've never been close to any kind of dreadful situation like that — I'm not quite so sure. I mentioned above that all lies lead to another problem... whatever the lie is.

Imagine the possible sense of hurt and betrayal when the person eventually funds out the truth... as they very probably might.

The same applies to other deeply sensitive issues, like whether someone's been adopted or not. Or (maybe) even something like finding that the child you thought you'd fathered wasn't actually yours.

The truth does set you free, though it can certainly be tough and difficult when crawling through that razor fence in the mud. I'd suggest — though these clumsy words might not show the sensitivity I appreciate is always there — that denying someone the truth may sometimes be a little demeaning, condescending, distrusting, and even arrogantly controlling.

I don't think we've really ever got the right to manipulate another person like that — even if we convince ourselves we're trying to be 'kind'.

It can be one's OWN fear that one's trying to self-medicate. Not real, genuine concern for the person one's told the 'white lie' to.

[thepainterdoug]

O donna, do you mean in the sense that art at its root inception is an unnatural occurrence and or creation? only existing by intent by we humans?

[O Donna]

That is one way to put it, thepainterdoug.

Art has intent beyond its inception. A tree is not just a tree.

[Deux Corbeaux]

Most people will lie in order to get something they want, without believing in their own lies.

But there are persons who belong to the group pathological liars. Unlike telling the occasional white lie to avoid hurting someone’s feelings or getting in trouble, they seem to lie for no apparent reason. They will lie consistently and continually in large fantastical ways that can make it obvious to others that they are lying. Yet the pathological liar will believe his own lies and recreate his own reality.

And then you have those suffering from narcissistic personality disorders and borderline personality disorders who also believe in their own lies, but on a more unconscious level. They do not want to be honest with themselves, so they change the way that they think to fit with their lies. They often tell themselves and others that everybody loves them even though they do not. They want to believe it, so they say it.

I actually don’t know exactly where the first one (pathological liar) ends and the other one (narcissist) begins.

[RogueEllis]

Sometimes it's better to not tell someone that their Father or Mother committed suicide to prevent pain.

Actually — although I've never been close to any kind of dreadful situation like that — I'm not quite so sure. I mentioned above that all lies lead to another problem... whatever the lie is.

Imagine the possible sense of hurt and betrayal when the person eventually funds out the truth... as they very probably might.

The same applies to other deeply sensitive issues, like whether someone's been adopted or not. Or (maybe) even something like finding that the child you thought you'd fathered wasn't actually yours.

The truth does set you free, though it can certainly be tough and difficult when crawling through that razor fence in the mud. I'd suggest — though these clumsy words might not show the sensitivity I appreciate is always there — that denying someone the truth may sometimes be a little demeaning, condescending, distrusting, and even arrogantly controlling.

I don't think we've really ever got the right to manipulate another person like that — even if we convince ourselves we're trying to be 'kind'.

It can be one's OWN fear that one's trying to self-medicate. Not real, genuine concern for the person one's told the 'white lie' to.

When I was in second grade, I found out the woman I called "mom" was my step-mother and that my birth-mom had died when I was two years old. I am still resentful to this fact and especially the way I found out, today. What you said is 100% true as I now do it with my own daughter, who knows but keeps up the charade to spare my feelings.

[Caliban]

This is a fascinating topic. What Deux Corbeaux brought up really gets into murky waters. One group knows they're lying but does it because that's their game--that's their MO, they get off on creating these webs of lies, it's a power thing and an obsession, a conscious one. The Iago phenomenon. I wonder though, how "conscious" it is for them. Or has it simply become the warp (no pun intended) and woof of their lives?

Others perhaps, the borderline and narcissistic types, do it from an unconscious basis. I'm trying to imagine what that's like. It seems like it's an absence of conscience, even an absence of awareness of that absence. That's a very strange state to be in.

Most people lie to protect themselves or loved ones. But the cases above paint a totally difference picture of reality. One wonders about the events we call hoaxes or false flags. Those who participate, who plan these--what category do they go in?

Funny, because I'm in the middle of watching a very long Japanese movie, translated as "Happy Hour." One of the main themes seems to be lying and the omission of facts. For example, in a group of four women friends, one woman expresses hurt a few times because another women in the group told one of them about an important issue in her life, but not all of them. She took it as a lie, but another women, who also wasn't told, accepted it as her decision to tell only one of them, particularly since those two were longer term friends.

There are many shades and variations to lying and dissimulating. Some therapists, I believe I've read this, say it's not always beneficial to a marriage to confess an affair that happened and is over. So does the truth always set one free?

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Habitual lying can escalate, and escalate, but eventually it can come full-circle - and bite you in the @ss!

A short tale to illustrate an example. This was before cell phones and facebook, when you had to talk to your friends to find out what was happening in their lives rather than knowing instantly and automatically with the press of a button.

When I was a younger bloke, I dated a real beauty. I loved her to bits. We'll call her Mel. For a time we were very happy (for me it was the happiest I ever was). Sadly, it didn't last. Let's just say Mel came to be...'liberal' with her sleeping arrangements. Lies were told (by her) to cover those betrayals, but the truth was eventually disclosed (by a third party), and hearts were broken (mine), etc, etc. It ended in tears (again mine), and that was the end of that. Lesson learned.

A while later, I came to befriend a guy who happened to now be dating Mel. We'll call him Jim. No problem, for me it was in the past. I'd moved on. Jim knew I had dated Mel for a while, but I didn't tell him much about my time with her, because I, after all, was still friends with Mel (platonically), and I wasn't about to bad-mouth her to him. So in a sense, I lied for her. Which may sound strange to some people. Why would I protect the girl who treated me so badly? Well for one, her love life was not my business anymore. Secondly, and call me a sap, I didn't think it was the right thing to do. It would've torpedoed her new relationship before it had even got going.

Anyway, a short while later again, a few weeks I think, I heard from Mel in passing that she was now dating a guy called Rob, and he was awesome, she was really into him, and it was going well. When I next encountered Jim, a few days later, I immediately consoled him, mentioned Rob in an off-handed way, her new boyfriend, and asked him what had happened, although I guessed easily enough. He looked at me aghast. "Rob? Who the f**k is Rob?"

Jim and Mel were still together, they'd never broken up at all. To Jim everything was going great, and he had no knowledge of Rob.

When I got home, I received the phonecall I knew was coming. A distraught and absolutely furious Mel. Her relationship with Jim was now in tatters, he'd dumped her, and all because I had opened my big mouth! My response was simple. How was I to know Rob was a secret fling, how was I supposed to keep track of all her lies? She stopped sobbing and swearing at me at that point, and over the next 10 minutes came to a frightening conclusion, one she hadn't at all considered. It wasn't my fault, or Jim's fault, or Rob's fault, or the world's fault. It was all her fault. She lied her way through life, and through men, and because of it she'd lost Jim, who, according to her (and I had no reason to disbelieve her this time), was the love of her life.

They never got back together, and Rob, 'the fling', soon faded away. But I'm still friends with her to this day, but don't ask me about her love life, because funnily enough, it's complicated!

[RogeRio]

There are many shades and variations to lying and dissimulating. Some therapists, I believe I've read this, say it's not always beneficial to a marriage to confess an affair that happened and is over. So does the truth always set one free?

good question -- I bet 2 cents, a good answer is -- The affair that happened "Don't Matters", TO the affair that is happening (here and now)

If don't matters, needless to say, or even if it does, it shouldn't makes difference to the marrieds, ie, not set one free, by principle.

BUT, if it makes a difference, it is because the marriage has problems, and the lie here is ...
-- the use of an irrelevant reason to solve another psychosomatic relevant problem.

here, in my country, there is a popular saying -- God writes right by crooked lines !

on my previous post (#21) I told about competition versus cooperation, but I miss to mention that some Cooperative Techs can include a kind of lie, when others don't correspond a pure cooperative stimuli, So, you can deceive them with a little competition, to provoke some (unconscious) cooperation.

so please, be aware of that .. take in mind that Truth is Relative (and the lies too)

[amor]

By the time you arrive at 80 years old, you have passed through just about everything mentioned above and more, either on the giving or the receiving end. Both have life destroying potential. At 80, you have learned either to keep your mouth shut or Sock It To Them Baby!

[Peter UK]

By the time you arrive at 80 years old, you have passed through just about everything mentioned above and more, either on the giving or the receiving end. Both have life destroying potential. At 80, you have learned either to keep your mouth shut or Sock It To Them Baby!

Or sit back quietly grinning.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

:)

[Victoria]

"She is a liar. She has always been a liar."
It hit me in my soul.

Oooooof! I really felt that.

:heart:

So sorry that happened. That's the kind of thing that's kind of hard to 'unhear' — once someone's been so crass and insensitive as to actually say it.

Bill, Thank you. :-) Ironically, she (or it) could see me well. I guess it's as they say, sometimes the truth hurts.

[Words of Joy]

Berate... I didn't know this word, which I read earlier in this thread. Though looked it up and I can relate. I strive not to lie, though still catch myself doing it. It disappoints me every time. What I notice mostly in myself is I lie mostly to protect my feelings. I recognize I anticipate the knowledge and expectation of others and when I think it could turn into disapproval by the other, or a disappointment or a confrontation, then I sometimes choose to avoid friction and turn what I say into something that I think will be accepted by the other person.

I'm convinced lying is wrong, in all circumstances. Not lying requires strong communication skills I feel. I need to be able to switch my emotion off, not be afraid of impact and be willing to face there are parts in my life that can be improved, and I should be able to communicate that in honesty.

That said. I also notice that with some people I don't feel the need to lie, because I know these people are not going to be triggered painfully by what I say, and friction is not anticipated. For me that shows me something important, which I try to give to others: acceptance of circumstances and to not get triggered to react with negativity in any way of form. Though also here strong communication skills are very important, because does it mean you have to approve or condone everything, or be on the same line. No. I feel I have the responsibility to be able to communicate whatever is on my mind in a way that is reasonable and caring from both angles.

One can ponder about what type of behavior grows this kind of behavior, like lying. If a parent is verbally abusive when a child makes a mistake, what will that result to? The child is learning to communicate, but might not be skilled sufficiently to reply adequately. This could lead to the child wanting to avoid the abuse, and turning to lies as an easy, though crooked, fix. Can you blame the child? I think not. Is it right? I think not. When people in their teens or early twenties have children, are they always skilled in constructive communication? I think not. Can you blame them? I think not. Is it good? I think not. Behavior like lying will jump from generation to generation. To my opinion every person needs to take responsibility for their part and be a good example for the ones around them whether initiator or receiver.

Do I find it easy? No. Long way to go. I find it's a struggle, but imma keep on working on this, praying to get it right one day.

[edit: typo strife=strive and removed duplicate]

[Agape]

I think that most lies occur out of fear -as a form of self defence I’d say,
starting in childhood, we may feel or be in inadequate situation towards authority,
parents, teachers ,much later of course it can be any sort of authority
and while we are gullible for breaking “their rules and protocols” number
of times in soft manner, punishment for doing so can be either way inadequate in that manner, giving them reason to exercise their ego, arrogance or anger
and we choose not to share either our reasoning( if repeatedly misunderstood) and our errors “with them”.
Lying in self defence is probably more common, in my opinion than “proactive lying” of people who would qualify as pathological liars,
strangely enough those people too often start in childhood and they’re sometimes amongst the most charming, adorable and praised people in collective or families, well till they grow up and they still can’t stop telling stories.

I don’t think that anyone likes to lie as a default or being lied to, is base line.


There are situations where lying becomes indispensable defence against what we think we can’t conquer at that time.

Personally, I treasure honesty and truthfulness as kind of golden means, sword that cuts through every ignorance but mastering “the sword of truth” is not easy.

To teenagers and all kinds of beginners of the “truth process” it can take years
to learn how not to harm themselves and others with some kind of truth.
For after all, most of the truth of this world is relative and transient.


I think that sometimes in life, even the very definition of truth and lie is solely
an internal conviction of the witness, such as “truths” related to relationships
in general.
Some people go very far to get somebody else assessed the way they want them
to be or the way they see them because of their strong sense of personal aims
and individuality, for example.

Reality -the reality- we so call for in higher philosophical sense rarely calls
us for assessment in fact unless we have or we are ignoring its principles.

On the other hand we are natural processors of what we call the reality surrounding us . We modify the environment just by being present.

Whether we modify it a little or a lots it gets registered and the pure fact of our beingness which isn’t a state of status quod but state of processing therefor modifying other living beings reality can be interpreted as a form of “lie” to them

because we do not all function the same way, have differing chemical and neurological-reactions, different metabolisms etc etc.

To the other entity in the room( of life) burning flame of a candle( or a soul) may be “white lie” because they got deceived by burning candles and souls in their lives, previously.
Pretty cloth may be a “white lie” to me seeing many people with outwardly success but out of character.
Similar is the “white lie” of uniforms, lab coats, monastery robes etc.

There’s probably nothing in the history of the Universe that did not fall to plagiarism at some point and deceptive symbol of its original meaning.

So in turn today’s people rarely realise how much lies are surrounding them.


Personally again, I consider myself truth fighter against all kinds of human deception but to see through all takes much longer than one individual lifetime



🙏🌟🙏

[Chester]

By the time you arrive at 80 years old, you have passed through just about everything mentioned above and more, either on the giving or the receiving end. Both have life destroying potential. At 80, you have learned either to keep your mouth shut or Sock It To Them Baby!

Incredible... I just spent a good hour or so thinking about all this and came to the same conclusion. I then open this thread and go to the last post I read and BAM - there's your post, amor. Its good not to feel alone. In fact, this is the number one reason I am glad I found this forum and glad I haven't caused myself not to be welcome and glad I came back (after two "retirements")... not to feel so alone. Apologies for the personal note.

There's one thing more I have concluded. To think that I have the good judgment and right to actually decide which of the instances of lying of others are either 'completely wrong' or 'perfectly right' at any moment in time in our world as it is today would likely be the real wrong, especially if I did so in a way that I imposed my view on another. The posts I made earlier in this thread may have done just that even though I sued personal experiences to support my judgment. I won't go back and edit them though.

I (now) simply wish to state that I was expressing frustration as to how things played out in a few specific instances.

I am 61 and the wisdom of keeping my mouth shut has not yet sunk fully in but I am more and more doing so, so there's hope. When I do actually remain silent, I am usually forcing myself not to Sock It To Them Baby, but I so often want to and even more so, find myself cheering on those who actually do.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

The Invention of Lying. Mark lives in a world where lies simply do not exist. Then one day, he has a brainwave. Fun, with an intriguing concept, a highly recommended film.

RhRnmyBjOLs

[rgray222]

"
Lies, when the truth actually comes out, always causes more harm than if the truth had always been made available. Always


I could not agree more, lies always cause more harm then truth ever will. About three years ago I vowed to myself never to lie about anything again, no matter how minor or major. I did not feel I particularly lied a lot it was just that I saw the ramifications of others lying and I did not like what I saw. That said, over the course of the first year I was astonished how much I caught myself lying. It was never anything major. I even caught myself lying about lying. For instance.........I was running late for a meeting. I finally arrived and announced that I was caught in traffic instead (of the truth) saying I got a late start. To me it wasn't really a lie it was simply "an excuse." Now I have come to realize that no excuse/lie is actually necessary. The right way to handle it is................I apologize for being late, I appreciate your patience.

I was bewildered at how much I actually lied, particularly when no lie was necessary. For instance, someone would call and say that they wanted to stop by. If I didn't want to see them or spend time with them I would almost automatically say I am not going to be home or I have plans for Saturday.
Now I automatically tell them the truth, I don't feel like seeing anyone today.

Of course, there have been instances when the truth is much harder to "speak." My daughter (28yo) became very ill, she was in and out of the hospital 4 times before they admitted her for a 16-day stretch. They ran every test under the sun and could not figure out what was wrong. After about 10 days she was asking me what I thought and did I think they would get to the bottom of her illness. She was at a first rate medical facility that I had a very high degree of confidence in but the doctors were absolutely stumped on what was causing her such a grave illness. Before I put myself on the truth road I would have been more optimistic and probably told her that everything was going to be just fine. I found myself choosing my words very carefully and staying honest and upbeat. I did not want to give her false hope when we had no idea how bad or good the outcome was going to be. Fortunately, she is fine now. It turned out she has a very rare stomach bacteria that was almost impossible to detect.

I have been in other situations where I would not have been as honest as I am now. Such as a friend leaving his wife for a much younger woman after many years of marriage. He asked my opinion and I told him that he should only ask if he was prepared to hear the truth from my perspective. When he said yes I unloaded on him. He was taken back and hurt that I did not support him. The bottom line is that he ended up making a horrible mistake which he now regrets and there is no chance of repairing the damage to his broken marriage. We have remained close friends and I believe he now appreciates the painful truth that I delivered to him. His regret is not that he was told the truth it is that he never really listened to the truth.

My point is I believe that most of us are not even aware of how often we lie. Most of us think that "white lies" are OK. Our inclination seems to be that it is OK to lie to save someone from being hurt or embarrassed. The truth is.........when we lie no matter the reason and no matter the size of the lie we end up hurting others and ultimately ourselves. Taking an inventory of my 'lies' was one of the best decisions I ever made.

What we put out in the universe we ultimately get back.

[Iyakum]

My post is dedicated to @Slobbe, @Arborealis, @NancyV and @Petra.
Likewise to all who participated in my thread. Who gave me their experiences. With a respectful thanks to all concerned.

My personal experience, tells me that even the most honest person on earth will not get along without lies or will get along. Lies are part of our existence. It is an unwritten law, all of us without exception are all subject to it. Lying can cause very severe pain, some have grown up with pain and some have not. Some who suffer or endure such pain try to live with it. But what about those who are not up to such pain? We all know that most of the physical pain can be cured. Except for the pain that is incurable. For those who have to endure such pains of incurability, for those I pray. I myself have suffered severe pain. Through physical torture, when I had to endure the torture, I was still young and with time I have replaced the memory of the pain. Due to my inexperience, childlike mindset, I thought there would be no greater pain than physical torture. But I was taught a much worse. It was followed by the torture of the most extreme pain after the physical torture. I sat in a cell which was estimated 1.50 x 80 cm. When the physical torture did not work, the torture of the soul came. Only I wondered, why do not you believe me? I told them the truth, I'm innocent. Do you want me to lie? Do you want to reach with psychic Follter that I lie? Yes, they wanted that. The mental torture can not endure as much as the physical one. I spoke to God, Jesus, Mary, the Holy Spirit to all who could hear me. I asked what did I do wrong that I have to suffer that? The country I was in was a fundamentalist Islamic country. However, I did not believe in Islam, I am a Christian.


When I realized that those who interrogated me did not know how to reach them, I was lying. They wanted to hear a lie from me. I sat in my cell and was about to break up. Names were engraved in the wall in front of me. I scratched a cross in the wall, I wrote. I believe in God, in Jesus, in the holy Mary Mother of God and in the Holy Spirit. All this I wrote in German, it was very important to me that I do not lose faith. When I finished my work, I looked at the cross and the inscriptions. I felt an incredibly strong presence that formed around the cross. Only around the cross and the names. A thought, an enlightenment came to my mind. So at first I only drew four lines that ran from the cross in the middle until they were about a meter long. At the ends of the lines I wrote God, Jesus, Mary and the Holy Spirit in the wall. I can not say for sure. But my feeling was sharpened by the torture. Nevertheless, I felt that presence was stronger. My faith became stronger I started praying, I asked questions. Everything will be fine, it was not an answer, it was a feeling, maybe an inspiration. Not only the wall with the cross, the names, the lines, also I started to radiate. I felt a power that is indescribable. Whenever I speak, I receive the same answer. Everything will be fine, you should not lie, the truth comes by itself. Two days later I was taken to the interrogation rooms Despite the permanent blindfold, I knew where I am. One of the guards took me to a slightly larger room. He told me there is a blanket and a pillow, you can sleep. That night I prayed again. I prayed to God to accept me and I do not want to experience the next day. It seemed like the presence gave me a smile. I thanked the presence for the hope. But I decided that God would answer my prayer. I did not want to see the next day. I asked for death. There were words in my head that I could not interpret right away. I lacked experience, but I succeeded. The result was, "you have so much to do here, stop lying to yourself". The next morning, I was released. I did not lie, no lies, only the truth.

[petra]

Why are we lying?
I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?

We lie in fear, afraid of what others might learn about us. We are lying because we do not want to hurt someone we love. We lie to protect others, also we lie out of greed, envy, jealousy.

But every time we lie this fear grows bigger, we lie to ourselves, sometimes so often and over a long time, so that we someday even convinced that the lie was the truth. The more we lie, the more we have to remember the lies, but as everyone knows, the truth comes out at some point.

Only then what, then we invent a new lie or break everything together? ...

Cool thread Iyakum! I expect this will be very interesting, because you're talking about something which I expect might not exist any more (far in the future). Lying is something that the human race should not need, as far as I'm concerned.

Like you said, one reason why people lie is to protect (aka a white lie), and I think lying is a part of humanity for just this reason.

I imagine it's possible to live without lies, but that would put us at substantial risk!

Bottom line in my mind is, "We need to be able to lie" - but at some point in the future, this won't be true anymore (wishful thinking, perhaps)

As for lying to oneself though, there's NEVER good reason for that. People who lie to themselves are just setting themselves up to look like an idiot later on.

[Caliban]

Let's not forget that "lies" are built into this system. Our very existence in a body is a kind of illusion, a lie, or if you prefer, a temporary reality, not the True reality of who we are.

Much of what we call wisdom is knowing when to tell the Full truth, shades of the truth, bits and pieces of truth, a total lie -- or just to keep our mouths shut and walk away.

[petra]

Major lies as discussed above are ultimately damaging. Children deserve to know the truth, even if, at a young age they're told a disorted version to protect their growing minds. Later, they should be given the dignity of the full truth.


I totally 100% agree with this, and that's why the "rent-a-friend" thing in Japan is making me so mad (ref link) (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2017/11/paying-for-fake-friends-and-family/545060/)

People are developing a business based off of lying. It's not just rent-a-friend, you can rent-a-parent too. Sure you can call it acting.... but it's ALSO LYING, because the ones being lied to are not actors. I can't even begin to imagine how pissed the kids are going to be if they eventually find out their family hired an actor to be their parent.

[Strat]

The country I was in was a fundamentalist Islamic country. However, I did not believe in Islam, I am a Christian.


Where did this take place and why? You don't have to answer I'm just curious. Sorry to hear about your experience, that cell sounds horrible.

[Peter UK]

As for lying to oneself though, there's NEVER good reason for that. People who lie to themselves are just setting themselves up to look like an idiot later on.

And yet people still do it and not on an infrequent basis.

I'm referring to denial and what a big part that plays in the psychology of many individuals. Yes, it follows that they may look like an idiot but maybe not half as much as feeling an idiot when the recognition of the game that's been played out is staring them in the face and is no longer capable of being looped for a rerun.

:)

[petra]

As for lying to oneself though, there's NEVER good reason for that. People who lie to themselves are just setting themselves up to look like an idiot later on.

And yet people still do it and not on an infrequent basis.

I'm referring to denial and what a big part that plays in the psychology of many individuals. Yes, it follows that they may look like an idiot but maybe not half as much as feeling an idiot when the recognition of the game that's been played out is staring them in the face and is no longer capable of being looped for a rerun.

:)

Thanks for that perspective, I feel kind of blinded because I no longer have the ability to lie to myself (at least, I don't think so...)

Denial is a very important factor since we do it without even realizing. As far as I'm concerned though, denial should be unnecessary! We should not have to lie to ourselves, in order to keep from killing ourselves (worst case scenario)

[Caliban]

Major lies as discussed above are ultimately damaging. Children deserve to know the truth, even if, at a young age they're told a disorted version to protect their growing minds. Later, they should be given the dignity of the full truth.


I totally 100% agree with this, and that's why the "rent-a-friend" thing in Japan is making me so mad (ref link) (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2017/11/paying-for-fake-friends-and-family/545060/)

People are developing a business based off of lying. It's not just rent-a-friend, you can rent-a-parent too. Sure you can call it acting.... but it's ALSO LYING, because the ones being lied to are not actors. I can't even begin to imagine how pissed the kids are going to be if they eventually find out their family hired an actor to be their parent.

I'm really shocked by this Petra, I just read the whole interview. I can't believe that's what things have come to. Would that work here in the States? I don't think it would but who knows? People want to believe their fantasies. What's also incredible to me about this is, I read a short story recently, I can't recall the author's name, but it was describing just this: a corporation that plays family members, "for real," often for years at a time. But it was a story, it was a satire!!

The Japanese owner of that business describes "being" the father of a 12 year old daughter. And she loves him like any daughter would. Her mother allows this to go on. And it could go on indefinitely. I pity the mother when, not if, the daughter finds out the truth.

[East Sun]

Sometimes it's better to not tell someone that their Father or Mother committed suicide to prevent pain.

Actually — although I've never been close to any kind of dreadful situation like that — I'm not quite so sure. I mentioned above that all lies lead to another problem... whatever the lie is.

Imagine the possible sense of hurt and betrayal when the person eventually funds out the truth... as they very probably might.

The same applies to other deeply sensitive issues, like whether someone's been adopted or not. Or (maybe) even something like finding that the child you thought you'd fathered wasn't actually yours.

The truth does set you free, though it can certainly be tough and difficult when crawling through that razor fence in the mud. I'd suggest — though these clumsy words might not show the sensitivity I appreciate is always there — that denying someone the truth may sometimes be a little demeaning, condescending, distrusting, and even arrogantly controlling.

I don't think we've really ever got the right to manipulate another person like that — even if we convince ourselves we're trying to be 'kind'.

It can be one's OWN fear that one's trying to self-medicate. Not real, genuine concern for the person one's told the 'white lie' to.

I agree, Bill, except in what I stated initially. This was not in my immediate family, but my wife's. The person concerned died recently and never knew that her father had committed suicide. I think in this particular case the right decision was made.
I'm glad I did not have to make any part of that decision.

[thepainterdoug]

its possible the only reason we lie, is society

[Iyakum]

The country I was in was a fundamentalist Islamic country. However, I did not believe in Islam, I am a Christian.


Where did this take place and why? You don't have to answer I'm just curious. Sorry to hear about your experience, that cell sounds horrible.

This take place in one of the most horrible country in the world.

It was in the middle east, where the "first Gulf War" took place. I do not mean the Iraq Gulf War against Kuwait, that was not the first Gulf War. The prison I was in is the "Evin". It is laid out like a maze, some of the cells are under the mountain. When they arrested me, I was on my way via Kurdistan to Turkey. First I was in normal pre-trial detention. After more than three months, I was transferred to Evin Prison. The real reason was not the attempt of an illegal departure, the more I am Eurpäer. So they assumed that I was actively working against the government in Europe. But that was not true, but who believed me? Nobody? I spare the torture methods of describing what people are capable of doing out of sheer malice and envy. Just to blackmail a lie, ...

After my release, I learned that my family lied. They told the authorities I was a left Mujahedin. This can happen if one lies out of envy, malice and malice. You can destroy life with it. The strange thing is that they enjoy lying, ... I did not enjoy it.

[Frank V]

its possible the only reason we lie, is society

Well, animals have also already been observed exhibiting deceptive behavior. In fact, many animals deceive their prey in order to catch it, or deceive a predator in order to save their own life. Think of animals capable of changing color, for instance.

But then again, apes ─ and most notably, bonobos ─ have also already been observed deceiving members of their own group, e.g. in committing "adultery" and then trying to hide it from their designated mate, or in hiding food from the others.

So my personal take on it is that deceit is just part of life, and that it has developed as a mechanism for self-preservation. And the more intelligent a species, the more it will use the tactics it has learned or inherited, to the point where deception doesn't necessarily have anything to do with self-preservation anymore, but becomes a tool for manipulation ─ as it is among humans.