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View Full Version : WE FALL IN LOVE WITH BODIES, not people



thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 01:09
I was prompted to post this after seeing the movie Vanilla Sky tonight.
Has anyone seen the movie "Open your Eyes" ? or its remake, Vanilla Sky?

This is a fascinating and harshly real exploration into how it is , with rare exception.
That we fall in love with bodies. Bodies that we up front know are fragile and perish.

Demonstrated in these films is the love of beauty and symmetry. We convince ourselves we are passionately in love with each other , until the exterior changes.

The jokes, the cuteness, coyness ,cleverness and charm we have as members of the adorable, is so sadly seen as embarrassing, uncool and a complete turnoff when the package has changed..

The person who looses their looks, looses confidence and now becomes desperate and thus compoundedly ugly , all while equally in need of more acceptance , love and comfort.

Theres simply no arguing it. Its as it is , and only wishful thinking says its different.

And when Tom Cruise puts on a mask, even though fake, it seems to make it better, more acceptable, no different than face lifts and botox.

And what does this say about us, the beings we are ? Is this how it is and how it should be,
Should we just embrace it? Or rise above and see the illusion?

I love these films and how they remind me of how it truly is, and the battle to see thru it.

I am perplexed as to why it is this way, and how in spite of how obvious it is, most seem to play a wishful game of denial of this simple reality.

judge no one, we are all each other in this strange game.
I have been on both sides , and don't enjoy either.

Rosemarie
16th September 2019, 01:45
I have a story to tell to prove your point wrong. At least in this case. But it is too personal. Will think If I want to share. There was no body to fall in love , just very intelligent conversation for a long period of time by phone or internet. Never talked about looks , everything but that. No facetime , no photos. After many months.... hop on a plane to meet this person you know as much or more than anybody you have ever known personally. Body was not the ideal of “ beauty “ society want to impose on us ..... but by that time that was not important. We had seen with our souls.

TomKat
16th September 2019, 01:59
The comments from painterdoug and Rosemarie reflect the age-old wisdom that men trade love for sex and women trade sex for love.

And it brings to mind the old joke:
Adam: God, why did you make Eve so beautiful?
God: So you would love her.
Adam: But why did you make her so stupid?
God: So she would love YOU.

thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 02:36
Rosemarie/ that is why is said this; This is a fascinating and harshly real exploration into how it is , with rare exception.

Im happy for you and this experience. but its not the norm by any means, and not what we see being played out in the world we live. for if it were the norm, supermodels would pare up with average fellows, waiters and such ,and male Adonis's would be with non attractive gals. I don't see this.

is it this way it is ? if you can honestly tell me this is what you observe, then Im all ears to be awakened.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

TOM KAT / That quote is a prize.

This is not the way I see or decided the world to be. This is what it is ,as the movie so apply displayed.

amor
16th September 2019, 02:47
Dear Tom Kat: Thanks for the belly laugh.

greybeard
16th September 2019, 07:17
For me the eyes have it.
Regardless attraction is an energy thing.
Something subconscious attracts one to the other.
Or we would all pick the same person.
Chris

thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 08:31
graybeard , we must all remember , its not like we can pick anyone we want . we have to also be picked, or shall i say, accepted.

greybeard
16th September 2019, 09:57
graybeard , we must all remember , its not like we can pick anyone we want . we have to also be picked, or shall i say, accepted.

Thats why I said its an energy thing.
You could say its mutual attraction but its the same energy--- consciousness.
Words dont really convey.
Chris

Deux Corbeaux
16th September 2019, 11:59
Super models, for whom the body is a big part of their lives, will most likely fall for a handsome man. They want to be the best looking couple as well.

There is a group of women that fall for power. Same with money. Those men will pick the Beautiful.

But there is also a group of women who choose different, for another reason .............


An answer to the "Beautiful but Stupid" bias:

GO ON GIRLS, CLAP YOUR HANDS!!!! ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IaXVfPoTZ4


Now waiting for the song "God's gift to Men".

~

Hope I didn't offend too many of you. Although that would mean there are quite some handsome guys around here. ;)

Valerie Villars
16th September 2019, 12:26
Doug, I've seen that movie many times. One of the most painful things to watch was not that Tom Cruise's character became disfigured on the outside, but that he was crippled on the inside and when he lost his looks, he lost a superficial facade and he became bitter, with a huge chip on his shoulder. That is what made him ugly.

Ratszinger
16th September 2019, 12:52
I was prompted to post this after seeing the movie Vanilla Sky tonight.
Has anyone seen the movie "Open your Eyes" ? or its remake, Vanilla Sky?

This is a fascinating and harshly real exploration into how it is , with rare exception.
That we fall in love with bodies. Bodies that we up front know are fragile and perish.

Demonstrated in these films is the love of beauty and symmetry. We convince ourselves we are passionately in love with each other , until the exterior changes.

The jokes, the cuteness, coyness ,cleverness and charm we have as members of the adorable, is so sadly seen as embarrassing, uncool and a complete turnoff when the package has changed..

The person who looses their looks, looses confidence and now becomes desperate and thus compoundedly ugly , all while equally in need of more acceptance , love and comfort.

Theres simply no arguing it. Its as it is , and only wishful thinking says its different.

And when Tom Cruise puts on a mask, even though fake, it seems to make it better, more acceptable, no different than face lifts and botox.

And what does this say about us, the beings we are ? Is this how it is and how it should be,
Should we just embrace it? Or rise above and see the illusion?

I love these films and how they remind me of how it truly is, and the battle to see thru it.

I am perplexed as to why it is this way, and how in spite of how obvious it is, most seem to play a wishful game of denial of this simple reality.

judge no one, we are all each other in this strange game.
I have been on both sides , and don't enjoy either.

All my life I dated pretty girls. Really pretty even by Cosmo standards and I must have looked good too because I attracted them. They were all built perfectly, had beautiful faces, and hair, great nails and so on. When I met my wife I knew right away something was different. She wasn't the body style I went for at all. She wasn't the hair color. She had the intellect to keep up with me though and we both worked in dentistry so she had great teeth! As time went by we became friends. She helped me get dates at times. One day we dropped something in her car in the parking lot of the ER at the hospital and went for it at the same time. We kissed for the first time. At first I was conflicted. She was everything I wanted but nothing I wanted or went for physically. She knew this of course but had long accepted that she was a bigger girl or one that would 'survive a hard winter' unlike the ones I usually dated lets just say that.
When I did try to leave her I felt physically ill. When I finally realized she was the one it wasn't because of her body or her face, or her hair, or her teeth it was something else, something in the eyes? No, something whatever it was that I simply didn't want to live without and that was when I knew period end of story. Nothing else, none of that mattered to me anymore. All that mattered from then on to each of us was commitment to what we build together and that was nearly 40 years ago. I was never head over heels in love and she wasn't either. All the things I looked for were wrong. The one I couldn't live without without feeling sick was the one what can I say it was that simple and quite honestly I really don't think it would have mattered to me at this awakening if April had been a man or not the feeling of wanting to share the life together committed to that even when we didn't love each other at all was all that we worked on and all we keep. No matter what we both can count on that even when we want to kill each other.

Anyway, just saying.

greybeard
16th September 2019, 13:09
Yes I really get that Ratszinger.
Ive been married three times plus one long relationship.
The attraction had a life of its own--ive even turned down women who loved me--were special in their own way, to be with someone who was perhaps a challenge--I knew what I was getting into the moment I met them--avoidance was futile. not a sexual attraction--just something inevitable.
Each relationship grew me--painfully at times.
Still friendly with all of them.
We just out grew the relationship.

Chris

thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 15:11
Valerie/ yes 100% ! and was so painful to watch.

Mike
16th September 2019, 15:36
I think I've really and truly been deeply in love only once.

The woman I was in love with was not conventionally pretty. She was by no means ugly, but she would not have made any magazine covers..lets just put it that way.

She was not conventionally pretty, but she was attractive in ways that were mysterious to my friends and I back then. Looking back, it's not so mysterious - while not beautiful by any stretch, she was cute, and hada wonderful personality..which is what we were really attracted to the most. She liked to laugh, had a very sharp sense of humor herself, and could more than hold her own in a crowd of caustic drunken dudes. She was just different.

Not to blow my own horn or anything, but like Ratzinger I was accustomed to being with beauties mostly. But I got past that real quick. I was hopelessly smitten. This woman was so unique; at the time I knew I'd never meet anyone like her again, and I haven't. And I think that's why I grieved so deeply when it all ended. See, it was her mind that hooked me.

To Doug's point though, and I'll just admit this right here: had she been sloppy and unattractive, I would not have been with her. She was cute in her own way, and was also fit and so forth.

Being attracted to attractive people isn't merely a superficial thing. Being attractive suggests many things: firstly, that someone takes the time and energy to care for themselves; it means they respect themselves; it means their life is in order. Being fit and healthy means you're honoring the opportunity you've been given on this earth.

You're attracted to the result, but subconsciously attracted to the intention behind the result.

I think, especially if you're coupled up, you have a responsibility to stay fit and attractive for your partner. To not do so is disrespectful. Sloppiness is contagious; your partner will likely let himself or herself go as well...quid pro quo. That's why you see those huge whales walking shopping malls, with the long faces and the wailing children tagging along that they don't have the energy to discipline...it's a silent contract between 2 people: if you're going to be fat and miserable, I am too.

thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 17:25
Mike/ love your last paragraph and summation . And we do see this, a laziness set in among couples where its all too hard to hold up the facade anymore.

but aren't we all talking about natural selection? genetics? . the best seek out the best.

speaking as a male, a physically stunning woman holds a power over a mans thinking when being presented it. I've seen it played out a thousand times . beauty is powerful. its intoxicating and desirable. it holds a value , like money in a sense.

symmetry , proportion etc, be it in humans or art, holds a power in it. as an artist I have studied it all my life , reading books like"the evolution of desire" and "shadows of forgotten ancestors"
I have raised the topic in my series of paintings " State of Grace ", portraits of burn survivors. People who survive facial burns are the best example of this. Their faces are no longer seen as beautiful or attractive, yet the real person is the same person before the accident. the packaging changed and we intellectually know this, but still have a hard time working around it. look at the cosmetic and plastic surgery industries , would they thrive if our exteriors didn't matter ?

As Valerie Villars noted regarding the movie, if the Tom Cruise character , only had some self love , and acted from it, yes he still would of been physically unattractive to the woman, but very possibly been able to have her love regardless.

my burn survivor series can be seen at www.dougauld.com scroll down to State of Grace .

shaberon
16th September 2019, 18:56
There is a point to this. In a lot of cases, I get a better handle on something by looking at the opposite.

Why are we repelled by ugliness?

I have only been to Europe one time, but I went several places, and spent every day going through crowds and speaking to whoever. For the most part--80 or 90 per cent--they were all reasonably fit, decent looking, intelligent, and polite.

Here, I can't really do it. Lots of them are unreasonably overweight, to outright gargantuan. But many of the normal-sized ones look like they are made of leather and have the voice of a crow. If you talk to them, they get stupider as they get louder and more excited. It is as if they are celebrating a cult of ugliness and ignorance. So I spend most of my life "dodging the crowd". Once in a while it may stop, and those are moments of great relief.

What I experience is just one love that reaches out to anyone, but if they repel it, I leave quickly. If not, they get whatever I can offer. I have heard this expressed as "being clean", inside and out, the cleaner you are, the more beings you can touch. I think most of the repellent people are made of poor diet, no real education, and cherish stupid experiences. Why is it if I go out in my society, I need to continuously stifle a vomit? I should be able to walk out and be stunned by how great everyone is.

In any case, I don't think that is "no love" which may get lucky in one instance to become "in love". The love is just an endless power that does what it does. When it finds better targets, it does more. "Better" has a lot more to do with good treatment than it does appearance, but if more things are good, usually the appearance is better. Beauty through and through could perhaps simply be called health. I dwell in a sick area.

thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 19:13
Shaberon/ some good comments and observations. I find a flaunting of ugliness in my town. Not ugly faces, beautiful faces turned ugly by no light, no love in their eyes. I see fear, fear of the facade falling or being found out. i have relegated myself to being alone, not only by choice in lifestyle, but by the time and town I live.
Ive been told by others theres no worse town to be in for soul and culture than here. but I own my place and will not let the dead souls drive me out.

i have a thing I do almost everyday while weather warm. I sit outside my place on the side of the building w cup of coffee. People need walk right past me. i have a welcoming smile for everyone. there are many a pretty young gal that pass me. I would say maybe 5% , yoga matt and all will make eye contact or smile. Its an unimaginative and scared demographic here, pretending to be liberal and open as they're are all tattoo'd up . However I get great and enjoyable interaction with children and dogs while parents drag them past !

Mike
16th September 2019, 19:21
Hi Doug, yes, well said...and I can't argue with any of that.

That first thing we notice about someone is their appearance. And then, if there is an energetic connection, romance may follow.

It seems certain criteria must be met when selecting a mate. For better or worse, it begins with appearances. At a very basic level, we're biologically programmed to not only procreate and keep the species going, but to also weed out various undesirable variables, both physical and mental...and perhaps even spiritual. I think we all subconsciously approach romance this way.

The topic of burn victims is gutting. I just read something on Yahoo about a woman burn victim whose husband left her shortly after the accident. She begged him to come back...and there was something about her begging him to return that completely broke my heart. I think it's because she still had hope for the relationship, despite her tragedy. She was still holding onto a precious ideal, one that perhaps you're espousing here, that burns or disfigurement shouldn't alter the love 2 people feel for one another.

Or maybe she was just in shock and denial about it all, and was desperate for her old life back. Either way, it's just as heartbreaking.

Had that happened to me, i think i would encourage my mate to leave...with shame and insecurity being the main reasons. Also, I'd want to free her of any sort of moral obligation she might feel to stay with me, and any judgement she might fear from friends and family. I don't think that approach is especially virtuous - it comes from a place of fear mainly. Unlike the woman who begged her husband to return, who, at best, was courageously prepared for those burdens, and was willing to deal with them. Its a very unique person who is, and an equally unique mate that stays

Rosemarie
16th September 2019, 21:01
Yes , My mistake thepainterdoug, I am the exception maybe. I cannot explain it well. I have always looked beyond the physical body. Off course I am not saying somebody that is dirty or does not take care of its body. They have to be clean. But the ugly part I can deal. In fact I think that when I was young a handsome guy , an Adonis type did not have a chance on me. I do not want to be “ presumida “. That is a show off in english, but I was an attractive/beautiful woman I was told when I was young ( now I am just whatever and I am fine with it ) and a handsome guy had a serious disadvantage with me. He had to prove himself to me he was more than a nice face/body. Sometimes I did not even care to give him that chance.

In my personal case and not going into detail. When I met this guy after not knowing anything about his physical appearance, I encounter a guy 11 years older ( to my 40’s ) with a serious limp from a bicycle accident ages ago. With premature white hair , who literally did not know how to smile ( had a weird crooked smile ? ) with a face like a road map of wrinkles from living in Oahu and being in the sun. And he was perfect because I had gotten to know his soul before his outer Body.

But yes , we do live in a shallow world in general. Very superficial. I have been lucky to find my tribe of like minded people that surround me and i am not letting it go. So that is the world I live in.

East Sun
16th September 2019, 21:17
I believe I fell in love with youth and personality that included genuineness. And although change is inevitable we expect it
and should not take it as anything but change. We change, others change, its all part of life.

Ratszinger
16th September 2019, 21:42
I grew up like everyone seeing the ads of the pretty young gals on the hoods of convertibles selling cars and they were thin, and the girls selling cigs they were thin. All of them were the model by which I lived by. The programming from those early life skinny girls led me to date girls just like that, tall, athletic, some curves but mostly tall and linear, Taylor Swift build girls. That is what my eyes grew up seeing and my brain thought I wanted. No offense to the girls reading that are skinny but I found out something dating them all my life and making love to many of them and then switching to a different body style more 'voluptuous' and larger later was this. I really don't like seeing ribs. I really don't like bony hips and bony elbows and shoulders! I found out dating April that you don't just see a woman with your eyes you have to see her with your hands too! The hands as it turns out are today on a different page with most men than they were with our fathers. For people my age I mean. My father grew up with the standard that my wife is the standard for beauty not some skinny girl. My wife is built more like Jane Mansfield or Rita Hayworth when heavier and you know what? The hands like it? I've discovered at least in myself that men were programmed to think skinny was the model ideal all men wanted when in fact the skinny models were chosen simply because it cost less to cloth them! The first bid was apparently too high to advertise so some smart sales guy said, "what if we use smaller models?" and so they ran the numbers. As it turns out it was significant and apparently the skinny gals worked for less money at first so they saved that way too.

Programming via ad on TV, magazine and movies taught us all to go for the trophy skinny gal! The hands say "BORING!" and that is what I learned. Now I can't imagine going back because my hands have now reset my eyes to the proper programming before it was corrupted by cheap clothing manufacturers. Just my take, again. Not saying you have to agree but it is my education in the matter.

thepainterdoug
16th September 2019, 21:55
East Sun change is what we are guaranteed. our shared change is aging. its the great equalizer. my son and I were discussing clint eastwood at 90. he's pretty old and age showing very deeply but still going strong.
I believe we need to age. If we stayed beautiful, wed stay superficial. so we are forced to learn and let go.

now think how handsome and strong clint eastwood once was, and how he looks now. then consider our average selves and say, holy crow, what will i look like at 90 !! lol

graybeard is looking pretty sharp he's my role model !

RoseMarie / I hear you and God bless!! a few insightful will rise above . I think I'm still to superficial!! lol

Strat
16th September 2019, 22:16
I want to disagree with you doug but I think you're right. I'm in the 'exception' category as well. I think the reason for this is I've basically got some mental scarring. I've had an abnormal life so I'm attracted to similar folks. Like you other (evidently) sexy bastards I relatively easily can get the hottest girl in the bar and I don't try. I honestly don't put in any work it just always happens that way. However there was a gal I was attracted to more than all the others and she was very much average. The thing was she had mental scarring as well, so when talking to her and looking her in the eyes, she'd ring a gong in my soul that no other gal ever did.

Personalities for sure have an effect on attraction, but again, I admit I may be the minority due to my weirdness. Not too long ago I was tabbing out at a local bar when a gorgeous gal walked in. I decided to stay to talk to her. She was easy to talk to and all was going well till she began talking about how she screwed a male friend of hers over. Basically gained his trust, he admitted humiliating stuff to her, then she sent all that to the guys mother on facebook. She laughed and thought it was funny. I tabbed out and left then and there. That's just a massive turn off. I know I'm in the minority here, my friends wouldn't care about that either, but I'm just throwing it out there that the bodies thing isn't 100% accurate.

I get that when I'm out I definitely hone in on the pretty gal, but if garbage comes out of her mouth then I'm out.

thepainterdoug
17th September 2019, 03:25
STRAT thanks for your comments . I didn't create this reality, its not mine, it just is, on a big picture reality. not on individual exceptions. If it wasn't true, the world would look very different . so were not talking personal exceptions, were talking broad brush. natural selection etc and it works on all sexes both ways. women have eyes too and have their physical attractions and beautiful women seem to find their way to strong handsome men, or financially sound men as beauties has it rewards .
and Im certainly not in the (can get the hottest girl in the bar) category . i simply no longer care.

TomKat
17th September 2019, 12:52
Super models, for whom the body is a big part of their lives, will most likely fall for a handsome man. They want to be the best looking couple as well.

There is a group of women that fall for power. Same with money. Those men will pick the Beautiful.

But there is also a group of women who choose different, for another reason .............


An answer to the "Beautiful but Stupid" bias:

GO ON GIRLS, CLAP YOUR HANDS!!!! ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IaXVfPoTZ4


Now waiting for the song "God's gift to Men".

~

Hope I didn't offend too many of you. Although that would mean there are quite some handsome guys around here. ;)

The supermodel might fall for a handsome guy, but only after she marries a rich one. I used to do art shows and saw a lot of couples. I decided to see what the common denominator was for beautiful women, what kind of men were they with? They were overwhelmingly with wealthy men.

thepainterdoug
17th September 2019, 13:17
TOMKAT Beauty is a commodity . It has great value. It says you arrived and are on top when you possess it, like a beautiful car. its also a trap and has a price as well.

greybeard
17th September 2019, 13:25
The reality is that sex sells.
There many adverts with that "come and get me look" either subtle or blatant--at the least its sensual--appealing to the senses.
We all sell our selves one way or another--its in the genes.
A survival skill.
And thats ok.
We may initially fall in love with the attractiveness but to form a long term relationship there has to be something much deeper going on.

Chris

Ratszinger
17th September 2019, 13:46
Beauty is fleeting! I've seen stunning women when out in town and later seen the same women and night and day. Somehow the second time they weren't quite as stunning. I note that a lot. Some days I feel I look better than others in the mirror also. I believe it's a tie in with the hair styles, clothing, you know? The masks we wear to make ourselves presentable for the public.
With young men in particular, my son for example, the hair is the big calling card, the attention getter. The women with stunning hair often fool men into thinking they are stunning beauties but the hair distracts and takes focus off the other areas. Again programming also. What is beautiful? To me it's probably not what someone else sees when I see someone I think is pretty and often I'll say I like this actress or that and my wife will be like making faces because to her that face isn't attractive at all. I do this trick often when I think I see a woman that is stunning and visually try to see just the face without the hair. More often than not you start to see the power of a good mane and how it turns men's heads. Some short hair cuts do this too of course but it seems to me that men instantly pick up a women with big hair. They have to look. They can't help it.

Deux Corbeaux
17th September 2019, 14:17
Super models, for whom the body is a big part of their lives, will most likely fall for a handsome man. They want to be the best looking couple as well.

There is a group of women that fall for power. Same with money. Those men will pick the Beautiful.
.........


The supermodel might fall for a handsome guy, but only after she marries a rich one. I used to do art shows and saw a lot of couples. I decided to see what the common denominator was for beautiful women, what kind of men were they with? They were overwhelmingly with wealthy men.

Not so strange. They are supermodels, aren't they ?
Do you know what designer clothes-shoes -makeup cost? Not to mention a private trainer and plastic surgery. And that is only the beginning... :becky: :faint:

thepainterdoug
17th September 2019, 14:43
hey all great comments. graybeard, yes spot on.

The ability to see things as they actually are is what prompted my original post. We have a way of fooling ourselves into thinking its different, or we are different, when its all the same. I do give credit to awareness,insight, true honesty about things as they are, and everything in my opinion is a matter of degree.

Even the burn survivors I worked with on my project were spending hundreds of hours on surgeries to make themselves look better. Society will just not accept them, as I often think they are viewed as modern days lepers.

A study of sparrows was once done where they put little plastic rings on the birds legs. a black and white one on each side. As long as they matched, ie black top of white on both sides etc the birds did fine in relating and mating. But when they were switched, black over white and while over black on the other leg, the birds stayed clear of that one. Lack of symmetry may mean poor breeding and survival skills.

petra
17th September 2019, 14:46
Can blind people fall in love? Sure they can, and I doubt it has much to do with looks.

Can people fall in love with a cartoon? Yes, it's happening all over the place. Happened to me. Still don't care if he has a body or not :) EDIT: Ok fine, the cartoon is good looking :blushing:

Personally, I think it's an idea which we fall in love with. Not the body, or the 'soul', but an idea - which comprises a bit of both, and maybe a bit more too.

thepainterdoug
17th September 2019, 16:26
Petra great points an quite an irony. Perhaps we see better without eyes. Ever see the movie Blindness?? or read the book by Jose Saramago? it explores this point exactly

but again, these are the exceptions from the broad brush.

our bodies are not who we are, but a really convincing illusion.

TomKat
17th September 2019, 22:56
Super models, for whom the body is a big part of their lives, will most likely fall for a handsome man. They want to be the best looking couple as well.

There is a group of women that fall for power. Same with money. Those men will pick the Beautiful.
.........


The supermodel might fall for a handsome guy, but only after she marries a rich one. I used to do art shows and saw a lot of couples. I decided to see what the common denominator was for beautiful women, what kind of men were they with? They were overwhelmingly with wealthy men.

Not so strange. They are supermodels, aren't they ?
Do you know what designer clothes-shoes -makeup cost? Not to mention a private trainer and plastic surgery. And that is only the beginning... :becky: :faint:

It's Jaggernomics: You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime... :-)

greybeard
18th September 2019, 10:25
thepainterdoug
You sure start some interesting threads.
I await your next one.
Thanks Chris