Was god choosing Jesus just; or should the Father have chosen the cross for himself?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Was god choosing Jesus just; or should the Father have chosen the cross for himself?

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Chose here means Jesus being chosen to be the messiah and sacrifice to the Father. It also means the Father, --- and Judge in this case, --- deciding to demand and accept what is synonymous to a bribe.

That is an evil act to most people.

If you were the god you are to emulate, would you send your child to die or would you step up?

Should sons bury fathers or should fathers bury sons?

Regards
DL

[enigma3]

Who died? Jesus did not die. He shed his body, but HE did not die. No one buried Jesus.

[greybeard]

It was evil to state Jesus died that we might be saved.
Chris

[Gracy]

If you were the god you are to emulate, would you send your child to die or would you step up?

Neither. Why the need for a blood sacrifice in the first place?

[Bill Ryan]

If you were the god you are to emulate, would you send your child to die or would you step up?

Neither. Why the need for a blood sacrifice in the first place?

Well, hold on, everyone. :sun: Language is a real problem here. Jesus wasn't God's anthropomorphic 'child', and God wasn't his anthropomorphic 'father'. All that was mythology ultra-simplified for the easiest digestion and acceptance by regular (usually illiterate) people.

Then all the metaphors got set in concrete over the years (also by Papal degree), and much of the linguistic nonsense was believed and indoctrinated literally.

For much more detail on all this, see this major thread:


The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign)

And also Hervé's excellent thread on how the wording of the Bible has been assembled, mistranslated, selected, twisted, edited, censored, and manipulated over the years, until what really happened back then may bear little resemblance to current dogmatic teachings.


Here: The So-called "Word Of God" (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86384-Here-The-So-called-Word-Of-God)

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Who died? Jesus did not die. He shed his body, but HE did not die. No one buried Jesus.

Ok and good.

If Jesus did not die, then the sacrifice never happened.

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DL

¤=[Post Update]=¤


It was evil to state Jesus died that we might be saved.
Chris

I agree, as Jesus would have to break Jewish law, which he purportedly taught, to be what Christians want him to be.

Regards
DL

¤=[Post Update]=¤



If you were the god you are to emulate, would you send your child to die or would you step up?

Neither. Why the need for a blood sacrifice in the first place?

Exactly the right question.

There would be no need.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

[ All that was mythology ultra-simplified for the easiest digestion and acceptance by regular (usually illiterate) people.
]

Keeping people simple and gullible is a religious forte.
They are easier to fleece that way.

Your decent apologetics, especially to Gnostic Christian thinking, have prompted me to check your links.

Regards
DL

[greybeard]

Im afraid because I have had my own non-duality belief for so many years I, forget that many millions still believe that Jesus died on the cross for them.
Chris

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Im afraid because I have had my own non-duality belief for so many years I, forget that many millions still believe that Jesus died on the cross for them.
Chris

I have a thing I give them to remind them of the immorality of using a scapegoat.

It usually chases Christians away as they cannot do apologetics against it.

-----------

To Christians.

On Jesus dying for you to appease your swollen egos that wants you to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

---------

greybeard

You need not opine as I doubt you would disagree, but if you do, please opine.

I can always learn something new.

Like where I find the avatar function.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Im afraid because I have had my own non-duality belief for so many years

How does that work buddy?

The tree of knowledge is dualistic. Good and evil.

I see good at one end of a graph and evil at the other.

If you see good at one end and do not think dualistically, show how you gage good and evil.

Regards
DL

[greybeard]

There are threads in the spirituality section on non duality so im not going into detail here --but basically"God" is omnipresent--everywhere--(consciousness)
That consciousness is like a thermometer -a lot of --- down to absence of --but heat non-the -less
Or electricity
So the Creator is voltage beyond belief --everything "else" still electricity (divine energy) but less.
Jesus said in the Bible "The Father and I are one--of myself I do nothing-it is the Father within" Jesus said we were exactly the same as Him, we could do he he did and more."

So non-duality also in the Bible.
People are free to believe in duality or non duality.

Chris

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

There are threads in the spirituality section on non duality so im not going into detail here --but basically"God" is omnipresent--everywhere--(consciousness)
That consciousness is like a thermometer -a lot of --- down to absence of --but heat non-the -less
Or electricity
So the Creator is voltage beyond belief --everything "else" still electricity (divine energy) but less.
Jesus said in the Bible "The Father and I are one--of myself I do nothing-it is the Father within" Jesus said we were exactly the same as Him, we could do he he did and more."

So non-duality also in the Bible.
People are free to believe in duality or non duality.

Chris

We are a part of the all, all children of god, no argument.

To say that a supernatural god has consciousness would be a lie, unless one had proof.

Regards
DL

[Star Tsar]

My current position of understanding in this matter is that Jesus is Sol, Our star, God's Sun, light of this world.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

My current position of understanding in this matter is that Jesus is Sol, Our star, God's Sun, light of this world.

Jesus never said he was god. In fact, Jesus had a healthy disrespect for literalism and the traditions that led to idol worship.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Regards
DL

[Bill Ryan]

What's the purpose of this thread? That's an honest question.

[Joe Akulis]

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Savior? Hell?

Oh, you mean who will help guide me from this near-Earth plane of consciousness up past the lower astral realms should I ever have an out of body experience, or a near death experience, or eventually when I die. I get it.

Some people like Edgar Cayce had the experience to make this trip on his own, as he talked about when people asked him to describe how he performed readings for people. (The Akashic Library resides in the upper astral, and you can't get there without passing the lower areas.)

Other people like the Egyptians understood that the average citizen did not have enough experience and wisdom to attempt to navigate non-physical consciousness on their own, so they looked to their pharaohs to be there when they died. They understood their pharaohs to have this capability and to serve as their guides over and beyond the underworld.

A lot of people who have had near death experiences talk about beings of light or other forms of guides that are there to help with that situation. Some talk about being spiritually blindfolded until they have passed those lower realms.

The thing I've learned over my last two decades of study in the areas of NDE's, OBEs, reincarnation, Cayce material, and all the other cool stuff that comes up here on Avalon is, the next layer of consciousness--the non-physical stuff--is almost immediately responsive to your thoughts.

So if you're worried about anything at all that you encounter, or that you might encounter, just ask for help and it will be there.

Much love to all on this thread!

[Bill Ryan]

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DLThat's really quite a nasty question. Who was it addressed to, and why?

[greybeard]

There are threads in the spirituality section on non duality so im not going into detail here --but basically"God" is omnipresent--everywhere--(consciousness)
That consciousness is like a thermometer -a lot of --- down to absence of --but heat non-the -less
Or electricity
So the Creator is voltage beyond belief --everything "else" still electricity (divine energy) but less.
Jesus said in the Bible "The Father and I are one--of myself I do nothing-it is the Father within" Jesus said we were exactly the same as Him, we could do he he did and more."

So non-duality also in the Bible.
People are free to believe in duality or non duality.

Chris

We are a part of the all, all children of god, no argument.

To say that a supernatural god has consciousness would be a lie, unless one had proof.

Regards
DL

Respectfully Its not that God has consciousness--God is the consciousness (life force-awareness) that pervades all.
We would get into trouble because of language.
Anything I say is coming from an understanding of what the mystics have said since time began.
Only one Consciousness. One without a second.
Regarding needing duality to know the difference between good and evil.
Taking temperature again--one knows when its cold outside without having to compare to a hot day--one just knows its best to wrap up.
So God is unconditional love and then there are degrees of love down to an absence of love.
Chris

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

What's the purpose of this thread? That's an honest question.

To show the immorality of the Christian ideology.

I am not into Goth but like this guys thinking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Joe Akulis

Cayce blew it on Atlantis, so I would take all he said with a grain of doubt.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DLThat's really quite a nasty question. Who was it addressed to, and why?

enigma3 because of the indication of a belief in Jesus.

Why is it a nasty question?

It is designed to have fools know for a fact that they were never condemned and that that is a lie to loosen their purse strings.

I think the opposite view that the church lies about is really nasty. Lies usually are.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

There are threads in the spirituality section on non duality so im not going into detail here --but basically"God" is omnipresent--everywhere--(consciousness)
That consciousness is like a thermometer -a lot of --- down to absence of --but heat non-the -less
Or electricity
So the Creator is voltage beyond belief --everything "else" still electricity (divine energy) but less.
Jesus said in the Bible "The Father and I are one--of myself I do nothing-it is the Father within" Jesus said we were exactly the same as Him, we could do he he did and more."

So non-duality also in the Bible.
People are free to believe in duality or non duality.

Chris

We are a part of the all, all children of god, no argument.

To say that a supernatural god has consciousness would be a lie, unless one had proof.

Regards
DL

Respectfully Its not that God has consciousness--God is the consciousness (life force-awareness) that pervades all.
We would get into trouble because of language.
Anything I say is coming from an understanding of what the mystics have said since time began.
Only one Consciousness. One without a second.
Regarding needing duality to know the difference between good and evil.
Taking temperature again--one knows when its cold outside without having to compare to a hot day--one just knows its best to wrap up.
So God is unconditional love and then there are degrees of love down to an absence of love.
Chris

That is duality and a graph would be analogically labelled a graph of the duality of good and evil.

"Its not that God has consciousness--God is the consciousness (life force-awareness) that pervades all."

A consciousness, yours for an example, is aware of it's existence. I think therefore I am, type of thinking.

That is why I reject how you state your first point.

It is either poorly said, or it breaks the law of the excluded middle.

I do not see a point to having an argument on semantics though.

Arguing the definitions of words can be boring.

Regards
DL

[greybeard]

Try this for size --on the link.
This not secondhand or from any book.
It is also the same as any Mystic Self Realized --I have read and thats quite a few.
However each to their own.
Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

[Bill Ryan]

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DLThat's really quite a nasty question. Who was it addressed to, and why?

enigma3 because of the indication of a belief in Jesus.

Why is it a nasty question?

Maybe you meant well rhetorically, but it came over as barbed and unpleasant. You may or may not have intended that!

If I was the person addressed, I'd have been offended because


I don't have a savior
I don't need one
Nothing has "earned me hell", and
No-one is entitled to suggest any of the above to me. (Or, to anyone else.)

[greybeard]

Maybe Im being a bit hard but when a new member comes and immediately starts a thread and is non too polite on it, I dont think they have joined to interact with the forum as a whole.
This is a good place to learn.
Those with a single minded agenda dont last on the forum.
I may be wrong but that's first impression.

Chris

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DLThat's really quite a nasty question. Who was it addressed to, and why?

enigma3 because of the indication of a belief in Jesus.

Why is it a nasty question?

Maybe you meant well rhetorically, but it came over as barbed and unpleasant. You may or may not have intended that!

If I was the person addressed, I'd have been offended because


I don't have a savior
I don't need one
Nothing has "earned me hell", and
No-one is entitled to suggest any of the above to me. (Or, to anyone else.)


As I said, it was to who I saw as a believer and they always run from the truth of their believing a lie.

Regards
DL

[Bill Ryan]

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DLThat's really quite a nasty question. Who was it addressed to, and why?

enigma3 because of the indication of a belief in Jesus.

Why is it a nasty question?

Maybe you meant well rhetorically, but it came over as barbed and unpleasant. You may or may not have intended that!

If I was the person addressed, I'd have been offended because


I don't have a savior
I don't need one
Nothing has "earned me hell", and
No-one is entitled to suggest any of the above to me. (Or, to anyone else.)



As I said, it was to who I saw as a believer and they always run from the truth of their believing a lie.
~~~

That was your second post on your first thread, and your second post after your account was activated. You've been here just one day.

enigma3, who you don't know a single thing about, has posted 351 times over a period of more than 3 years. They're smart and respected, and were willing and game enough to engage with you having started what some might consider to be a provocative thread. (And you've still not responded to my question about its purpose.)

Some might label your challenge to him (or is it her? You don't know) arrogant, inappropriate, aggressive (as was your explanation above) and full of assumptions. I'd like to suggest you're not doing very well, so far.

If you believe yourself to be a teacher, and I'd guess you do, please go about this in a more effective and more pleasant way.

:focus: — whatever it is! :)

[RunningDeer]

For much more detail on all this, see this major thread:


The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign)

And also Hervé's excellent thread on how the wording of the Bible has been assembled, mistranslated, selected, twisted, edited, censored, and manipulated over the years, until what really happened back then may bear little resemblance to current dogmatic teachings.


Here: The So-called "Word Of God" (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86384-Here-The-So-called-Word-Of-God)

https://i.imgur.com/RfoQjVt.gifNo time for Gnostic Christian Bishop to check out other threads.

It appears Avalon is one of many forum stops. A few samples below and here (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Gnostic+Christian+Bishop&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).


https://i.imgur.com/9WFYoBR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Sw0n4TO.jpg

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

For much more detail on all this, see this major thread:


The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign)

And also Hervé's excellent thread on how the wording of the Bible has been assembled, mistranslated, selected, twisted, edited, censored, and manipulated over the years, until what really happened back then may bear little resemblance to current dogmatic teachings.


Here: The So-called "Word Of God" (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86384-Here-The-So-called-Word-Of-God)

https://i.imgur.com/RfoQjVt.gifNo time for Gnostic Christian Bishop to check out other threads.

It appears Avalon is one of many forum stops. A few samples below and here (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Gnostic+Christian+Bishop&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).


https://i.imgur.com/9WFYoBR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Sw0n4TO.jpg

I have a groupie list. Care to join?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing the size of your mind.

Regards
DL

[Franny]

Please take care GCB that you don't cross lines of courtesy, especially repeatedly as you are doing. Disagreement is expected and not problem but discourtesy certainly is.

You have been found to be posting the same subjects in other places by a loved and respected member of the forum who enjoys research. This is normal when a new member quickly shows they seem to be on a single subject crusade, we've seen this many times.

Please remember to be courteous when you post.


I have a groupie list. Care to join?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing the size of your mind.

DL
Regards

[RunningDeer]

I have a groupie list. Care to join?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing the size of your mind.

Regards
DL

No thanks. Your comments are reminiscent of being talked at. I was propagandized at a Catholic Academy, so I’m not big on bible speak, verse, psalm, New Testament, Old Testament…it all sounds the same.

[Innocent Warrior]

A Christian prayer that demonstrates the calibre of Jesus’ esoteric knowledge. See beneath the surface and enjoy!

The Lord’s Prayer

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

:blackwidow:

[Orph]

I have a groupie list. Care to join?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing the size of your mind.

Unfortunately for G.C.B., he's unable to see the size of RunningDeer's heart, which is a s big as the great outdoors. Quite a shame. really.

By the way, G.C.B. seems more than willing to demean and debase anyone who has a differing opinion or belief. That's hardly what I would call a "discussion".

[RogeRio]

let me try to change a few the course of conversation, absolutely on context of God and creation. One can say this a mere point of view, but facing at unanswered questions, everything its still possible.

Everyone knows (except the ignorant ones) that we have the ability today to make a virtual sphere ("a planet") of any size, put in it trillions of information, and generate "beings" who will learn the story we just created and believe that they live in a world that is millions of years old.

What if we were also here on Earth, a mere experience of God, newly created ?

So, To justify God's ways to the 21st century, What if God used Unix? :confused: (http://www.netzmafia.de/service/unixgod.html)

[greybeard]

It would seem that a lot of anger is promoted in this subject and similar ones.
Where is the Love?
Maybe the membership application form could be updated in a way that sorts out those with single minded agenda.
Or applicants checked to see what they post on other forums.
Just a suggestion.
Chris

[Strat]

It is designed to have fools know for a fact that they were never condemned and that that is a lie to loosen their purse strings.


You're not bringing anything new to the table and calling people fools wont help drive your point home.


Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Thanks for showing the size of your mind.


You need to kick rocks.

[pueblo]

Who died? Jesus did not die. He shed his body, but HE did not die. No one buried Jesus.

Ok and good.

If Jesus did not die, then the sacrifice never happened.

Who then is your savior and what did you do that was so bad that it earned you hell and the need for a savior?

Regards
DL

¤=[Post Update]=¤


It was evil to state Jesus died that we might be saved.
Chris

I agree, as Jesus would have to break Jewish law, which he purportedly taught, to be what Christians want him to be.

Regards
DL

¤=[Post Update]=¤



If you were the god you are to emulate, would you send your child to die or would you step up?

Neither. Why the need for a blood sacrifice in the first place?

Exactly the right question.

There would be no need.

Regards
DL

Hi, have you considered the idea that Christ made a Cosmic/Karmic sacrifice to the Demiurge which was only mirrored on earth in his "physical" death?

I have read an interesting view which I have to admit is very attractive to me, that Christ paid a 'Karmic' ransom to the Demiurge and company in lieu of the karmic debt owed by all the True Seeds of the Father trapped here (the Divine Sparks). This ransom fulfils the law, the Gods of Karma get what was coming to them, but Christ has essentially paid for our return ticket home.

The rub is that to avail of this karma contract busting deal you have to invoke it at the time of death demanding your release from the wheel and free passage back to the Hyper-Cosmoi of the Divine Father.

This idea I believe would be easy to support with Gnostic scripture, it does not contradict for example the Gnostic idea that Jesus came to dispel ignorance because unless one awakens to the illusion and has the strong desire for something that is missing that is BEYOND what we have and what we are here, then remaining ignorant of the ransom paid ensures the captors can detain the captives indefinitely, the prisoner must demand his freedom!

In this karmic ransom scenario, Jesus's death on the cross whether it was with a literal flesh body or in some illusory/etheric body which just appeared real is almost irrelevant as is whether he then truly died or not - all those arguments become somewhat pedantic- his crucifixion was just a symbolic expression of the true karmic/energy sacrifice, a mirror image in the great simulacrum.

[Bill Ryan]

Thanks for showing the size of your mind.


Unfortunately for G.C.B., he's unable to see the size of RunningDeer's heart, which is a s big as the great outdoors. Quite a shame. really.

Exactly. :heart::heart::heart: —> RunningDeer.

Gnostic Christian Bishop's account is now closed. But it seems he has plenty of other places on the net to share his barbed, arrogant, know-it-all posts. If we ever care to, we can observe from a safe distance.

To others reading this:


Avalon is a place to show friendliness and respect, almost always well-deserved and well-rewarded, for other members. The community here is noted for its intelligence, awareness, knowledge about all subjects (including Gnosticism!), and kindness. (Kindness is important. Jesus, whoever he was, might agree.)
New members are all genuinely most welcome here. But it's smart and wise to get to know the community just a little before standing on a soapbox and hurling rhetorical insults at fine people you don't even know.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Another intellectual elitist narcissist bites the dust, what a surprise.

My take away is just what type of people populate this forum. Everyone gets a chance - even if they don't deserve it. Some get 15 pages of chances some only two...but they are all given the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks Avalon. It's literally why I am still here.

[PurpleLama]

Another intellectual elitist narcissist bites the dust, what a surprise.

My take away is just what type of people populate this forum. Everyone gets a chance - even if they don't deserve it. Some get 15 pages of chances some only two...but they are all given the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks Avalon. It's literally why I am still here.

Well said, Ernie.

[petra]

Hi, have you considered the idea that Christ made a Cosmic/Karmic sacrifice to the Demiurge which was only mirrored on earth in his "physical" death?

I have read an interesting view which I have to admit is very attractive to me, that Christ paid a 'Karmic' ransom to the Demiurge and company in lieu of the karmic debt owed by all the True Seeds of the Father trapped here (the Divine Sparks). This ransom fulfils the law, the Gods of Karma get what was coming to them, but Christ has essentially paid for our return ticket home.

The rub is that to avail of this karma contract busting deal you have to invoke it at the time of death demanding your release from the wheel and free passage back to the Hyper-Cosmoi of the Divine Father.

This idea I believe would be easy to support with Gnostic scripture, it does not contradict for example the Gnostic idea that Jesus came to dispel ignorance because unless one awakens to the illusion and has the strong desire for something that is missing that is BEYOND what we have and what we are here, then remaining ignorant of the ransom paid ensures the captors can detain the captives indefinitely, the prisoner must demand his freedom!

In this karmic ransom scenario, Jesus's death on the cross whether it was with a literal flesh body or in some illusory/etheric body which just appeared real is almost irrelevant as is whether he then truly died or not - all those arguments become somewhat pedantic- his crucifixion was just a symbolic expression of the true karmic/energy sacrifice, a mirror image in the great simulacrum.

This is really really good... thanks for the summary pueblo. The word 'ransom' really hits a chord with me.

I'm seeing a common theme of "self sacrifice", and although it's certainly a noble thing to do as a human, I consider what if God were to "sacrifice" himself? By my definition of God, everything would cease to exist if God did that, and I imagine God would be too smart to fall for that one.

As for people's suffering (including Jesus) I feel as if God suffers with us. And as for Jesus, I think he's probably perfectly happy doing God's bidding.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Some say that god did just that with creation - gave everything including itself. Because by doing so, by creating with the divine will and spark suffused into creation itself, one day that creation would remember itself in totality - and become the new living god!

[AutumnW]

The myth of a God or his son dying for his flock, could have been rooted in pragmatism. Many pre Christian societies sacrificed humans, and so its possible the intent of the myth was to stem the tide of human sacrifice. As far as blood sacrifice of animals, the intent may have been to offer an animal to 'the Gods' before they mutilated your cattle, sheep, goats or whatever. A form of appeasement. Maybe animal mutilations were really frequent back then.

As far as the question is God really Satan? That's creating a straw man or straw entity of some kind to tear it down.

[ExomatrixTV]

I remember a Alien UFO Abduction Research Group on PalTalk (http://PalTalk.com) Chat Room called: I.C.A.R. (http://ufoabduction.com)

Where you can interact using the mic to speak and text chat to all who is in the room (http://icar1.homestead.com/FindChatRoom.html), average between 50 and 75 members were present (24/7) from all over the world in approx 2003 up to 2011 I was one of the admins back then ... speaking with like minded people from over 10+ Countries 24/7.

Then somebody from UK using the nickname "AtreidesUK" asking the question: "Was Jesus an Alien?"

Half of all members were "offended" by that question and demanded everybody to be banned if you repeat that question ever again lol ... I wonder why.


Back then I knew all colleague ICAR PalTalk Room admins (http://icar1.homestead.com/uforoomadmins.html)!

[Tintin]

Perhaps we should close this thread?

The premise - OP - is just wrong. (I'll report it to the team)

....which I duly did and was ensconced in a Heimlich manoeuvre - no, only kidding :) - but must consider rolling back on the roll-ups :)

[Chester]

Was god choosing Jesus just; or should the Father have chosen the cross for himself?

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Chose here means Jesus being chosen to be the messiah and sacrifice to the Father. It also means the Father, --- and Judge in this case, --- deciding to demand and accept what is synonymous to a bribe.

That is an evil act to most people.

If you were the god you are to emulate, would you send your child to die or would you step up?

Should sons bury fathers or should fathers bury sons?

Regards
DL

Is considering (and thus imposing) the paradigm suggested by this post just?

[EDIT ADDED] - good - unsubscribed in short order

[Cara]

The myth of a God or his son dying for his flock, could have been rooted in pragmatism. Many pre Christian societies sacrificed humans, and so its possible the intent of the myth was to stem the tide of human sacrifice. As far as blood sacrifice of animals, the intent may have been to offer an animal to 'the Gods' before they mutilated your cattle, sheep, goats or whatever. A form of appeasement. Maybe animal mutilations were really frequent back then. ...

This idea seems to be similar to the ideas of René Girard:


René Noël Théophile Girard (/ʒɪəˈrɑːrd/;[2] French: [ʒiʁaʁ]; 25 December 1923 – 4 November 2015) a French historian, literary critic, and philosopher of social science whose work belongs to the tradition of anthropological philosophy.
...

Girard believed that human development occurs initially through a process of observational mimicry, where the infant develops desire through a process of learning to copy adult behaviour, fundamentally linking acquisition of identity, knowledge and material wealth to the development of a desire to have something others possess.

All conflict, competition and rivalry therefore originate in mimetic desire (mimetic rivalry), which eventually reaches destructive stages of conflict both between individuals and social groups that requires them to blame someone or something in order to diffuse conflict through the scapegoat mechanism. Unable to assume responsibility or engage in self-reflection to recognize their own part in the conflict, humans individually and cross-tribaly unite, of diffuse conflict, by murdering the king or whoever appears to have the least support in the conflict, and then recognizing when the person died how much less stress they have, and the unification leads to them eventually thinking of the deposed dead king as god, ie. deification or sanctification. Or, guilt is ascribed to an innocent third-party, whose murder permits the creation of a common unifying mythological underlay necessary for the foundation of human culture.

For Girard, religion and mythology were therefore necessary steps in human evolution to control the violence that arises from mimetic rivalry and unequal distribution of desirable things. Religion directed the scapegoat impulse on imaginary concepts, such as Satan or demons, the absence of which would see an increase in human conflict, according to Girard. His ideas ran sharply contrary to the post-modernism in vogue through most of his life, and his views of human nature were pessimistic in contrast with the mainstream currents of his time. Girard saw religion as an essential instrument of cohesion, believing that the primary purpose of sacred texts was to end the practice of human sacrifice through ritualisticaly surrogating for the behaviour triggered by scapegoat mechanism, adopting and expanding many of Nietzsche's ideas.
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Girard

~~~

David Cayley interviewed Girard for a radio programme in Canada in a five part series called The Scapegoat: René Girard's Anthropology of Violence and Religion.

These are discussions more than interviews, and the first part is here: http://www.davidcayley.com/podcasts/2015/3/8/the-scapegoat-ren-girards-anthropology-of-violence-and-religion-2

Here is a full list of all the interviews David Cayley did on/with René Girard including the above series and two more:
http://www.davidcayley.com/podcasts/category/René+Girard

~~~

The ideas of René Girard seem to have attracted slightly more interest recently and there are several lectures on YouTube discussing his ideas. There’s also a website - https://www.imitatio.org/brief-intro/ - which is dedicated to his theories on mimicry.