Very Few People Can Actually Think

[Mike]

that was a quote i heard by a popular intellectual today: "very few people can actually think."

and i wondered what exactly the man had meant by it. but within seconds i was drifting, thinking about my dwindling bank account, my fantasy basketball draft, my ex girlfriend, the groceries i desperately need, the oil change i need to get, the receptionist's sexy skirt, etc.

i gave up on the quote. but then i came back to it. and the same thing happened, with my mind drifting off and so forth. i gave it up again. only later did i realize that i'd actually answered my question without even realizing it.

what the man had meant was this: very few people can hold a thread long enough in their mind to have anything productive come of it. only seasoned intellectuals are capable, really.

most people need to talk to sort out their thoughts. i write to sort mine out. but try just thinking next time - no talking and no writing. i bet you'll be shocked at just how much difficulty you have

[rgray222]

This is a fascinating topic. I have often thought that most people go through life like a ball bouncing around inside a pinball machine. They simply move in the direction they have been sent. They never take the time to stop and think that they actually have the ability to take control of their life. They don't connect their thoughts enough to take ownership of their destiny.

Right or wrong people are only thinking about themselves and the immediate things that matter most to them. That said if everyone would take a little time to think about constructive ways to make the world a better place we could change things in the blink of an eye.

I think a more accurate statement would be that everyone can think but few people actually take the time to do it. It takes effort to get deep into your thoughts. Most people won't make the effort so they never bring forth the potential that lies within.

It is my belief that the vast majority of people are looking for validation on a host of topics. What they fail to realize is that the answers to almost everything in life are within their own thoughts...

Really when you 'think' about it thought is the most powerful tool in our arsenal.

[Mashika]

It takes effort to get deep into your thoughts. Most people won't make the effort so they never bring forth the potential that lies within.


A lot of people spend their entires lives running away from the moment they have to face their inner thoughts, some people know 'their monster' is sleeping there and they don't want to face it

:)

[Patient]

Society is built to keep your mind busy with "stuff" so that we are slow to build up our perceptive and psychic mind.

[Cara]

Serendipitously, this week I listened to four episodes of an old Canadian radio series called "Ideas" which discussed ideas about thinking and thought. The four episodes were titled "Modes of Thought (http://www.davidcayley.com/podcasts/category/Modes+of+Thought)" and they were recorded and broadcast in 1995 by David Cayley (http://www.davidcayley.com/).

I'll link all four episodes below as well as the introduction given by David Cayley on his website.

Particularly relevant for this discussion is a segment of the programme interviewing Deanna Kuhn on a study on people's abilities in rational argument. This study was published in a book called "The Skills of Argument (https://www.amazon.com/Skills-Argument-Deanna-Kuhn/dp/0521404517/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Deanna+Kuhn+the+skills+of+argument&qid=1571213780&sr=8-1)":


The Skills of Argument presents a comprehensive, empirical study of informal reasoning as argument, involving subjects across the life span. Professor Kuhn asked her subjects questions that people have occasion to think and talk about in everyday life, such as "What causes prisoners to return to crime after they are released?" "What causes unemployment?" "What causes children to fail in school?" Subjects were asked to offer their own theories regarding the cause of the phenomenon and then asked to provide supporting evidence for their theories. This is the first major study of how people reason in everyday life, and it highlights the importance of argumentative reasoning in everyday thought.

The discussion with Deanna Kuhn is in the third part of "Modes of Thought" and starts at approximately 42:30 in the track: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/542c2af8e4b00b7cfca08972/t/5c3a232240ec9ab9b9e14662/1547314098023/01+Track+01.mp3/original/01+Track+01.mp3

~~~~

Here is more information about the four episodes:


Modes of Thought (http://www.davidcayley.com/podcasts/2019/1/12/modes-of-thought)

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/542c2af8e4b00b7cfca08972/1547315114590-CAU7X58Y4CGGL7OLHPMP/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kIJw_lrz-Ohc_IuJBt2y7b5Zw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWhcwhEtWJXoshNdA9f1qD7Xj1nVWs2aaTtWBneO2WM-vFmhxekCQNh149jY1RMjKZ4flNcFdIm4jxxG3GCCVl5A/modes.jpg?format=500w

In 1988 I broadcast a series of programs called “Literacy: The Medium and the Message”which I have already posted on this site. The series explored the latest scholarship on a theme first broached at the University of Toronto by Harold Innis: how the techniques by which we communicate shape the way we think about the world. It was recorded at a conference organized by two University of Toronto professors, David Olson and Derrick de Kerckhove, and held at the University of Toronto in 1987. Five years later David Olson organized a two-day workshop which posed the topic of modes of thought, or mentalities, in more general terms - looking not just at the cognitive implications of orality and literacy but at all the ways in which our styles and habits of thought are formed. He assembled psychologists, anthropologists, historians and philosopher interested in this question, and, knowing of my continuing interest in the subject, he again invited me to observe and report on the proceeedings. The result was a book called Modes of Thought, edited by David and Nancy Torrance, which was published by Cambridge in 1996, and a series of four radio programs, also called “Modes of Thought” which I broadcast in 1995. Their theme, to say the least, remains current. The participants are as follows:

Part One: David Olson, Brian Stock, and Myron Tuman
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/542c2af8e4b00b7cfca08972/t/5c3a25d64fa51afb62c15c4f/1547314790235/01+Track+01.mp3/original/01+Track+01.mp3

Part Two: Jerome Bruner, Carole Feldman, and Keith Oatley
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/542c2af8e4b00b7cfca08972/t/5c3a246a88251b8b3c5ece0c/1547314379346/01+Track+01.mp3/original/01+Track+01.mp3

Part Three: Geoffrey Lloyd, Paul Thagard, and Deanna Kuhn
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/542c2af8e4b00b7cfca08972/t/5c3a232240ec9ab9b9e14662/1547314098023/01+Track+01.mp3/original/01+Track+01.mp3

Part Four: Scott Attran and Ian Hacking
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/542c2af8e4b00b7cfca08972/t/5c3a216321c67c086c1d28d2/1547313655042/01+Track+01.mp3/original/01+Track+01.mp3

[Trisher]

Society is built to keep your mind busy with "stuff" so that we are slow to build up our perceptive and psychic mind.

This is maybe hinting at the "no mind" approach. We have no control over thinking in the usual way. Thoughts think us. Thoughts come and go and persist and can be a constant voice inside the head. Once "no mind" (meaning no thoughts whatsoever) is achieved then in the space where no thinking happens there is incredible focus and the choice to think or not. This is also called Being Now.
Trisher

[petra]

most people need to talk to sort out their thoughts. i write to sort mine out. but try just thinking next time - no talking and no writing. i bet you'll be shocked at just how much difficulty you have

Hi Mike,
I agree with this, even though it's insinuating most of us are idiots who can't even think properly ;-)
I've thought about this already. You know you're going down a weird path when you start thinking about your thoughts (ha ha)

I think in WORDS, and if I didn't know English, I doubt I'd be able to think of much at all!

There was one point where I believed my "train of thought" was broken, and the basis of that was pretty much all of the sensory input I was getting was distracting me. I joke that one of these days, "Hey look, it's a bird!" is going to kill me... ;-)

It's worth thinking about too, how MUCH of our actual memory we are able to 'keep at the forefront'. We have a LOT of memories over the course of our lifetime, but it's impossible to recollect it all at once - we can only do it a bit at a time.

[RunningDeer]

Mike, I’m not sure if this fits the OP. Here are some examples of how ideas and thought processes work for me:

I’m absorbed for hours and hours on the things I’m passionate about.

If I get something in my head, I stay with it until it’s finished. One example was I decided to sew a three piece suit, i.e. jacket, vest and skirt to wear it to work the next day.

It was time to begin a new life. The first place I called was exactly what I needed. In less than 24 hours, everything was moved in, unpacked, cupboards stacked and pictures and curtains hung.

I stay on a project until it’s done because my concern is if I stop, I won’t complete it. (There are upsides and downsides to it.)

One of my practices is not to think. My goal is to ask a question and the answer comes before I’ve finished asking. Pictures and ideas pop-in to fill out the rest.

♡

[greybeard]

I think --I think!!

thoughts just arrive--I haven't instigated them,
Some are useful some not.
I think I can sort the helpful from the not so helpful.
I don't own them.
They are not mine until I think I authored them
They are just tools.
I don't have to listen to them.
If I instigate a thought process, that's different--I think.
Just having a little fun
Chris

[Satori]

RunningDeer said: "My goal is to ask a question and the answer comes before I’ve finished asking." Bingo.

I do the same thing and it works every time.

You will always get an answer to any question you ask yourself. To get the answer you want or need, the trick is to ask yourself empowering and useful questions, not dis-empowering and harmful questions.

For instance if you ask yourself "Why am I such a loser and why do I fail?" you will get an answer. But the answer will not empower you. It will in fact support your loser/failure attitude and state of mind. If on the other hand, you ask yourself "What tools and information do I need to be successful and happy?, you will get an answer that will empower you and be useful. Then from the answer you get, you develop more empowering questions to ask yourself one after the other as you move along towards acting on what your mind is telling you with the answers it gives you.

We should always strive to keep our minds on the things we do or should want and need, and off the things we should not or do not want and need.

The mind/brain does not distinguish between truth and falsity. To know the difference between truth and falsity does, at a minimum, require thinking and discernment.

And, finally, it is not what we know (or think) that matters, it is what we do with what we know (or think) that matters.

PS I had to think to write this post.

[AutumnW]

My thoughts are heavily skewed towards survival mode and anxieties associated with that. These are fairly well travelled neural pathways, my mind is worn down to the rim on them.
I seem to be able to think by articulating through the written word alone. If I am speaking to someone about something fairly complex I often have to look away from them, so I can concentrate on what I want to say. It's hard to put together otherwise. If it's something that requires a very difficult verbal feat, I type it out in my head, using my fingers, (if that makes any sense) and then read it once its typed. As it fades from view fairly quickly, I have to speak/read it really fast!

I cannot use voice recognition technology, for the reasons many people find it difficult. I find that communication for anything the least bit complicated, everything gets processed through my hands and fingers from my brain. Speech is secondary.

Another thing I find is if someone tells me to write a short story about just...anything...I can't. If they ask me to write about something specific with all kinds of boundaries and parameters, I find it much easier.

[AutumnW]

This is a fascinating topic. I have often thought that most people go through life like a ball bouncing around inside a pinball machine. They simply move in the direction they have been sent. They never take the time to stop and think that they actually have the ability to take control of their life. They don't connect their thoughts enough to take ownership of their destiny.

Right or wrong people are only thinking about themselves and the immediate things that matter most to them. That said if everyone would take a little time to think about constructive ways to make the world a better place we could change things in the blink of an eye.

I think a more accurate statement would be that everyone can think but few people actually take the time to do it. It takes effort to get deep into your thoughts. Most people won't make the effort so they never bring forth the potential that lies within.

It is my belief that the vast majority of people are looking for validation on a host of topics. What they fail to realize is that the answers to almost everything in life are within their own thoughts...

Really when you 'think' about it thought is the most powerful tool in our arsenal.


Many people who don't write and can't articulate well verbally, might have access to a richer realm of thought if they tried to write towards their intellectual potential.

There's a lot of emphasis placed on journelling and writing out your feelings, nowadays. It might be more helpful if they were encouraged to write more within the realm of thought as opposed to pure emotion? If someone can't access that realm, they are unlikely to be able to form coherent and compelling strategies to make he world a better place.

[RunningDeer]

9 Kinds of Smarts




#7. Linguistic Intelligence (“Word Smart”)
 
Linguistic intelligence is the ability to think in words and to use language to express and appreciate complex meanings.  Linguistic intelligence allows us to understand the order and meaning of words and to apply meta-linguistic skills to reflect on our use of language.  Linguistic intelligence is the most widely shared human competence and is evident in poets, novelists, journalists, and effective public speakers.  Young adults with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.



https://i.imgur.com/MlvqE5T.jpg

Resources:

Howard Gardener, The 9 Types of Intelligence (https://blog.adioma.com/9-types-of-intelligence-infographic/)
Howard Gardner’s Theory of Multiple Intelligences (pdf) (https://www.niu.edu/facdev/_pdf/guide/learning/howard_gardner_theory_multiple_intelligences.pdf)
“7 (Seven) Kinds of Smart (https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Kinds-Smart-Identifying-Intelligences/dp/0452281377/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495991688&sr=8-1&keywords=7+Kinds+of+Smart): Identifying and Developing Your Multiple Intelligences,” by: Thomas Armstrong
“Emotional Intelligence (https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intelligence-Matter-More-Than-ebook/dp/B000JMKVCG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495991790&sr=8-1&keywords=emotional+intelligence+daniel+goleman): Why It Can Matter More Than IQ,” by: Daniel Goleman.





1. Naturalist Intelligence (“Nature Smart”)
 
Designates the human ability to discriminate among living things (plants, animals) as well as sensitivity to other features of the natural world (clouds, rock configurations).  This ability was clearly of value in our evolutionary past as hunters, gatherers, and farmers; it continues to be central in such roles as botanist or chef.  It is also speculated that much of our consumer society exploits the naturalist intelligences, which can be mobilized in the discrimination among cars, sneakers, kinds of makeup, and the like. 
 
2. Musical Intelligence (“Musical Smart”)
 
Musical intelligence is the capacity to discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone.  This intelligence enables us to recognize, create, reproduce, and reflect on music, as demonstrated by composers, conductors, musicians, vocalist, and sensitive listeners.  Interestingly, there is often an affective connection between music and the emotions; and mathematical and musical intelligences may share common thinking processes.  Young adults with this kind of intelligence are usually singing or drumming to themselves.  They are usually quite aware of sounds others may miss.

3. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence (“Number/Reasoning Smart”)
 
Logical-mathematical intelligence is the ability to calculate, quantify, consider propositions and hypotheses, and carry out complete mathematical operations.  It enables us to perceive relationships and connections and to use abstract, symbolic thought; sequential reasoning skills; and inductive and deductive thinking patterns.  Logical intelligence is usually well developed in mathematicians, scientists, and detectives.  Young adults with lots of logical intelligence are interested in patterns, categories, and relationships.  They are drawn to arithmetic problems, strategy games and experiments.
 
4. Existential Intelligence ("Life Smart")
 
Sensitivity and capacity to tackle deep questions about human existence, such as the meaning of life, why do we die, and how did we get here.
 
5. Interpersonal Intelligence (“People Smart”)
 
Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand and interact effectively with others.  It involves effective verbal and nonverbal communication, the ability to note distinctions among others, sensitivity to the moods and temperaments of others, and the ability to entertain multiple perspectives.  Teachers, social workers, actors, and politicians all exhibit interpersonal intelligence.  Young adults with this kind of intelligence are leaders among their peers, are good at communicating, and seem to understand others’ feelings and motives.
 
6. Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (“Body Smart”)
 
Bodily kinesthetic intelligence is the capacity to manipulate objects and use a variety of physical skills.  This intelligence also involves a sense of timing and the perfection of skills through mind–body union.  Athletes, dancers, surgeons, and craftspeople exhibit well-developed bodily kinesthetic intelligence.
 
7. Linguistic Intelligence (“Word Smart”)
 
Linguistic intelligence is the ability to think in words and to use language to express and appreciate complex meanings.  Linguistic intelligence allows us to understand the order and meaning of words and to apply meta-linguistic skills to reflect on our use of language.  Linguistic intelligence is the most widely shared human competence and is evident in poets, novelists, journalists, and effective public speakers.  Young adults with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.
 
8. Intra-personal Intelligence (“Self Smart”)
 
Intra-personal intelligence is the capacity to understand oneself and one’s thoughts and feelings, and to use such knowledge in planning and directioning one’s life.  Intra-personal intelligence involves not only an appreciation of the self, but also of the human condition.  It is evident in psychologist, spiritual leaders, and philosophers.  These young adults may be shy.  They are very aware of their own feelings and are self-motivated.
 
9. Spatial Intelligence (“Picture Smart”)
 
Spatial intelligence is the ability to think in three dimensions.  Core capacities include mental imagery, spatial reasoning, image manipulation, graphic and artistic skills, and an active imagination.  Sailors, pilots, sculptors, painters, and architects all exhibit spatial intelligence.  Young adults with this kind of intelligence may be fascinated with mazes or jigsaw puzzles, or spend free time drawing or daydreaming.

 
* From: Overview of the Multiple Intelligences Theory.  Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development and Thomas Armstrong.com

[Strat]

Society is built to keep your mind busy with "stuff" so that we are slow to build up our perceptive and psychic mind.

This is maybe hinting at the "no mind" approach. We have no control over thinking in the usual way. Thoughts think us. Thoughts come and go and persist and can be a constant voice inside the head. Once "no mind" (meaning no thoughts whatsoever) is achieved then in the space where no thinking happens there is incredible focus and the choice to think or not. This is also called Being Now.
Trisher

Fantastic post! This is often why folks get stuck in emotional issues. The mental back and forth is actually normal and will not change unless something is done about it. Once mindfulness is achieved it is unbelievably liberating.

[greybeard]

Some people think too much.
Without realizing the consequence of their thoughts.
EXample
A conspiracy theorist who claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre did not happen, has been ordered to pay $450,000 (£351,000) to the father of one of the victims.
Leonard Pozner, whose six-year-old son Noah was one of 26 killed in the massacre, was awarded the money by a jury in Wisconsin after successfully suing James Fetzer for defamation.
The retired professor, who co-wrote the book Nobody Died at Sandy Hook with Mike Palacek, who agreed a settlement deal with Mr Pozner last month. Its terms have not been disclosed.

[Mike Gorman]

Epistemology has always been my favorite branch of philosophy, I know this sounds a little pretentious, so I will call on your generosity and ask that you suspend your tendency to instantly judge people for a few moments.
This branch of thought actually addresses the 'Meta' of knowledge itself.
How do we know, what we know?
What are the processes by which we can be certain of our understandings?
When so much that is about knowledge is truly uncertain, and always shifting, changing from one era to the next, from one decade to the next-how can we invest so much surety and confidence in our knowledge?
Science offers us a method of inquiry, but of course the political groups in our society have always sought to hijack the findings of science to support their intentions, to offer them a source of unquestioned authority!

True scientists are never as certain as their funding sources are about the world.
Critical thinking is I think what this fellow was referring to, much of how we think is determined by our social and economic status, but if we possess the means to question, and to defer our tendencies towards being Dogmatic, we can find ways to truly determine truth.
So, in my view at least, Critical Thinking skills are the most valuable skills to build, we can overcome the deception of Ego, Politics and other biases if we can think critically.

[TomKat]

I think --I think!!

thoughts just arrive--I haven't instigated them,
Some are useful some not.
I think I can sort the helpful from the not so helpful.
I don't own them.
They are not mine until I think I authored them
They are just tools.
I don't have to listen to them.
If I instigate a thought process, that's different--I think.
Just having a little fun
Chris

"If you're thinking you're stinking". "I think, therefore I am not."
Actually, I believe this mostly applies to thinking in words. Real thought is too fast for words. In the 2nd grade I noticed I was thinking in words and thought there was something wrong with me until I learned everybody does. I believe people think as a buffer against their own feelings and intuition. If you stay in thinking, you don't have to feel, perceive, be. It's a form of disassociation.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I use a rubber band around my wrist to remind me not to get lost in wrong-thinking. It seems to work quite well...

[aoibhghaire]

I remember attending a 10 week workshop called 'Lessons on Non Thinking' back in 1994.
The workshop had a book to accompany the workshop. I had initiated to have this workshop because a friend of mine wrote the book but had never planned such a course/workshop. I organised to have about 10 participants in attendance during the whole period.
The workshop required a substantial amount of non thinking exercises between lessons.

The outcome for participants was very challenging and at times was bringing up arguments for both some participants and the facilitator.
Some participants left in the second half of the workshop duration never to come back again.

I personally was going through a transformation in my life so this workshop was timely in accelerating the process in a positive way.
I was becoming more aware to my dormant psychic abilities and later I was developing inner empowerment.
All this resulted in applying these new found abilities with evidence that I could substantiate.
This later provided confidence in clearly applying a partnership with nature intelligence to progress my life in magical ways.

[greybeard]

Do I Own My Idea? The Nature of Creative Manifestation



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjTlDc_UYCE

[Ernie Nemeth]

If I talk to myself it's a sign I am likely drifting into wrong-think.

I can just as easily think without words, in pictures I can manipulate in my mind or ideas I hold as feelings that I can then compare to other ideas. And I have files in my mind. Some I can access in real time and some need time to percolate to the surface. But I can find things by category and relatedness as well to speed up the search - and feelings I remember are related to the topic at hand can also target the needed data.

I can stay on topic for very long periods...

But, my inductive reasoning is flawed because of my strong personal bias, and that has lead to incorrect deductions and conclusions. I am working on that. Who knew?

Sometimes when I get stuck on a problem I will switch my thinking to Hungarian, that sometimes helps get past the impasse because then I can only think as simply as I can talk the language (no formal education in Hungarian so no words for advanced concepts).

My mind is always working overtime...

[Mike]

thanks for all the great replies. lots of good stuff.

re "no mind": a spiritually desirable place for sages and yogis (and layman lucky enough to achieve it)...but i think that's more a state of being...which may be in some way superior, spiritually speaking, than mere thinking..but quite different actually.

the "no thinking" seminar cracked me up a little. not in a condescending way! it's just that the comic in me was flooded with bad jokes at the thought of it. for starters, setting up the seminar, and all the logistics, most likely took quite a bit of thinking!:sun:

re 'thoughts think us': thoughts are like dreams, in a way..so i can see why a statement like this resonates. however, thoughts can be reeled in, organized, and controlled with great effort..as dreams can. it's crucial when engaging in critical thinking, for example. or if you're planning and plotting a course for your life (or even your day!)

strategizing your days, and ultimately your life, requires some detailed thinking. it's also true that, when stuck, letting the effort go and waiting for the thoughts to arrive on their own time can be invaluable...especially in creative pursuits. john lennon describes this happening to him when writing songs (it's how "nowhere man" came to be, for example)

and, as mashika said, most people are scared to be alone with their thoughts to begin with, so the desire is lacking. the "monster" referred to there might also be called the "shadow", and we've all run from that from time to time

if you can read and write and articulate, you're virtually unstoppable. it doesn't matter what you're engaging in. i need to write to truly think things out. and i'd never discourage anyone from using the tools of talking and writing to think...i just thought it would be an interesting exercise to try to think without those tools. it shocked me at just how difficult it was.

much more i'd like to say about all this, but pressed for time atm. thanks for all the excellent replies

p.s. paula thanks for that chart detailing all the various forms of intelligence. very helpful!

[RunningDeer]

p.s. paula thanks for that chart detailing all the various forms of intelligence. very helpful!
Many of us can relate to several categories. In the early 1990’s, I purchased “7 (Seven) Kinds of Smart (https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Kinds-Smart-Identifying-Intelligences/dp/0452281377/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495991688&sr=8-1&keywords=7+Kinds+of+Smart). It's a valuable tool to learn how we take in the world and process it, and helps us to better understand the processes of others.

* Graphic chart and post here. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?108919-Very-Few-People-Can-Actually-Think&p=1319128&viewfull=1#post1319128)

[Ratszinger]

"Hey Google" doesn't help the matter at all but I do believe most every being with awareness thinks. I just think what we as a species have lost is the ability to stay focused and hold a singular line or focus of thought. With the computer age who has a tendency to speculate on the ultimate questions? They just ask Google! Instead of going within one goes outside of self to find the answers today. Also the days of not finding what you want and just making your own are all but gone except for rare few exceptions. Imagine though for a moment, someone with more than the usual powers of concentration! Why is mediation important? For one in meditation everyone experiences difficulty keeping their mind on one thought! The mind can be a restless beast jumping from distracting noises to an itch and numerous anxieties. Indeed for much of our existence the average among us discovers that when meditating trying to hold one thought or image or intention or solution in mind for even one minute causes one to begin to suspect we are not really the master of our own mind's at all but at best frusrated casual part time observers of a mind and a body off on it's own destiny and an experience taking us places we never saw coming in a million years. How else do we end up in places years later asking ourselves how in the world we ended up here? Was it by lack of focus or was there really anything I could have ever done to change a thing at all?

Sometimes life really makes it clear that resistance is futile!

[Caliban]

Some people think too much.
Without realizing the consequence of their thoughts.
EXample
A conspiracy theorist who claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre did not happen, has been ordered to pay $450,000 (£351,000) to the father of one of the victims.
Leonard Pozner, whose six-year-old son Noah was one of 26 killed in the massacre, was awarded the money by a jury in Wisconsin after successfully suing James Fetzer for defamation.
The retired professor, who co-wrote the book Nobody Died at Sandy Hook with Mike Palacek, who agreed a settlement deal with Mr Pozner last month. Its terms have not been disclosed.

Mike, I don’t mean to hijack your thread but felt I had to respond to this.

Greybeard, with all due respect, how do you presume to know what Fetzer had in his mind regarding the consequences of publishing his book on Sandy Hook? Perhaps he thought “Gee, someone needs to manifest some courage regarding this event and what happened (or didn’t happen) there and I guess it will be me.”

This case is far from over -- see article below on this absurd “trial” by Kevin Barrett and Robert David Steele’s response below that article.

I think this whole matter and his legal issues does deserve some thought.

https://phibetaiota.net/2019/10/special-the-legal-lynching-stalinst-show-trial-of-dr-james-fetzer-usmc-by-a-crooked-judge-in-wisconsin/

[Gracy]

One of my practices is not to think. My goal is to ask a question and the answer comes before I’ve finished asking. Pictures and ideas pop-in to fill out the rest.

Same here Paula, except the anticipated new thoughts, insights and ideas, usually takes a little bit more time to percolate up in the old noggin for me.

Kind of like when I turn the coffee on in the morning, it's useful to walk away, get some other things done in the meantime, and then come back when it's done.

[RunningDeer]

One of my practices is not to think. My goal is to ask a question and the answer comes before I’ve finished asking. Pictures and ideas pop-in to fill out the rest.

Same here Paula, except the anticipated new thoughts, insights and ideas, usually takes a little bit more time to percolate up in the old noggin for me.

Kind of like when I turn the coffee on in the morning, it's useful to walk away, get some other things done in the meantime, and then come back when it's done.

Me too, Gracy May. The practice is a work in progress. The hardest part for me was to not slip back so deep into analytical mind that I miss the natural phenomenon going on all around. And some of it says, "Come join in… Pay attention. This one’s for you."

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/dielaughing.gifhttp://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/haha.gif



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[AutumnW]

Caliban, Interesting thoughts. Fetzer did something really amazing in his Sandy Hook conspiracy thinking. First, he categorized too widely by connecting dots that should remain unconnected. Then he took those dots, and together with the gristle of intrigue, threw them into a mental sausage casing. When he was done he tied both ends of the sausage together with string, creating a closed loop of thought.

We all do this and have to guard against it. Because our minds will go round and round and round and not let any countering info in. The ability to change one's mind is hugely important.

[Mike]

autumn you wrote something really interesting i meant to respond to earlier..about having to have limitation in creative pursuits.

it sounds counterintuitive but it's quite reasonable. there's an old jewish idea that revolves around the notion that the only thing god lacks is limitation. since he is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, there is no distinction between this and that and therefore nothing to experience.

the creation of the universe and all it's inhabitants represents his attempt at creating limitation. and it, ironically, created loads of possibilities and options and opportunities to create.

like you, i need guidelines and limitations/boundaries to create/think. i'm lost otherwise

[greybeard]

Some people think too much.
Without realizing the consequence of their thoughts.
EXample
A conspiracy theorist who claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre did not happen, has been ordered to pay $450,000 (£351,000) to the father of one of the victims.
Leonard Pozner, whose six-year-old son Noah was one of 26 killed in the massacre, was awarded the money by a jury in Wisconsin after successfully suing James Fetzer for defamation.
The retired professor, who co-wrote the book Nobody Died at Sandy Hook with Mike Palacek, who agreed a settlement deal with Mr Pozner last month. Its terms have not been disclosed.

Mike, I don’t mean to hijack your thread but felt I had to respond to this.

Greybeard, with all due respect, how do you presume to know what Fetzer had in his mind regarding the consequences of publishing his book on Sandy Hook? Perhaps he thought “Gee, someone needs to manifest some courage regarding this event and what happened (or didn’t happen) there and I guess it will be me.”

This case is far from over -- see article below on this absurd “trial” by Kevin Barrett and Robert David Steele’s response below that article.

I think this whole matter and his legal issues does deserve some thought.

https://phibetaiota.net/2019/10/special-the-legal-lynching-stalinst-show-trial-of-dr-james-fetzer-usmc-by-a-crooked-judge-in-wisconsin/

My post was a generalization.
My point really is one of compassion.
If I had a child murdered in similar to the alleged situation then I would be very upset to find "conspiracy theorists" who weren't there, exercising their minds, joining dots to come up with a plausible alternative.
For Sandyhook not to have happened would have required the duplicity of a whole town--too many people would have had to been involved--thats my thought--may be wrong.

Similar happened with recent storms that caused havoc--the destruction was horrendous and fair enough the Media do hype things but down playing what was happening might impact on efforts to mitigate the situation.

Conspiracy theorists are pone to find an alternative that blames --whoever they want to blame--sometimes they get it right.

Chris

[Strat]

As a sort of heads up, I'm not trying to convert/convince anyone into anything so much as explain my line of thinking. Nothing is for everyone, do as you wish, it's none of my business anyway.



re "no mind": a spiritually desirable place for sages and yogis (and layman lucky enough to achieve it)...but i think that's more a state of being...which may be in some way superior, spiritually speaking, than mere thinking..but quite different actually.
I'd say you're 50/50 on target. It's a state that one attempts to achieve in moments at a time when sitting in quiet meditation, but it's inherently understood that it cannot be 100% maintained during daily life. From what I understand it's not even encouraged to try. Monks often work, blue collar style laying bricks, pulling weeds, etc. The mind is needed but one tries to focus it on the work alone and not the fact that the goddamn mosquitoes are biting or it's so hot. Make sense?


the "no thinking" seminar cracked me up a little. not in a condescending way! it's just that the comic in me was flooded with bad jokes at the thought of it. for starters, setting up the seminar, and all the logistics, most likely took quite a bit of thinking!:sun:
This is sorta what I meant by I think you're like 50% off target. One's ability to focus and handle daily life is significantly enhanced when one can maintain focus on singular tasks. This is a skill that can be exercised, like working out to lift heavier weights. During mindfulness meditation one notices the constant torrent of thoughts that are across the board. In the process of meditation one slowly attempts to rid themselves of these random off the wall thoughts. What you're left with is quietude. It's sorta like clearing your office desk. Then when you need to handle something you have a laser like focus.

It's like a PC running multiple programs at once: If you stop all the bs background programs your PC will run like it's brand new. There wont be any blue screens or lock ups.



re 'thoughts think us': thoughts are like dreams, in a way..so i can see why a statement like this resonates. however, thoughts can be reeled in, organized, and controlled with great effort..as dreams can. it's crucial when engaging in critical thinking, for example. or if you're planning and plotting a course for your life (or even your day!)
Meh, I 50/50 agree on your analogy (or is it metaphor? Me still too dumb to figure out difference).
Thoughts can be reeled in but not all are alike. Some are very very loud and overrun all other thoughts, which spills out into one's ability to focus. The only way I am aware of how to mitigate these issues is mindfulness or drug use. I don't mean to sound dramatic I'm serious.


strategizing your days, and ultimately your life, requires some detailed thinking. it's also true that, when stuck, letting the effort go and waiting for the thoughts to arrive on their own time can be invaluable...especially in creative pursuits. john lennon describes this happening to him when writing songs (it's how "nowhere man" came to be, for example)
I may face a banning for saying this but.... Lennon is overrated. Along with Dylan. Why do so many girls like him? He sounds like he's crying in half his songs. Bleh. He's okay I guess.
For a serious note, see above.


and, as mashika said, most people are scared to be alone with their thoughts to begin with, so the desire is lacking. the "monster" referred to there might also be called the "shadow", and we've all run from that from time to time
Not all monsters are created equal. Some crush souls. You can't run. See Hotel California. Again, joking aside, this goes back to what I was saying about facing the issue or drug use. Some people hate life cause mrs. yoga pants broke up with them and is talking smack and some people hate life cause their house got bombed and family killed. Those monsters are drastically different. One can be ignored for a period of time but the other not so much. Some demons must be faced or you end up laying in bed for the rest of your life.


if you can read and write and articulate, you're virtually unstoppable. it doesn't matter what you're engaging in. i need to write to truly think things out. and i'd never discourage anyone from using the tools of talking and writing to think...i just thought it would be an interesting exercise to try to think without those tools. it shocked me at just how difficult it was.
I wouldn't discourage anyone from these things either. And I agree, 'Pen is mightier than the sword' and all.



much more i'd like to say about all this, but pressed for time atm. thanks for all the excellent replies
Perhaps if your mind was more clear you could have debated more efficiently!! (jk much love bud)
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