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Cara
24th October 2019, 16:29
This is a thread to consider and think about language.

Language has many different aspects, it might be considered as:
* a tool of thought,
* a means of communication,
* a way to express oneself,
* a system of logic,
* a method of representation,
* a set of symbols,
* the expression of a culture,
* a device to store ideas,
* a way to capture experience and feelings,
* a technique to persuade,
* a pattern of interaction,
... and many more things.

As someone who loves to read and who writes quite a bit (jottings, notes, journals, poems, ...), I find language entrancing, rich, complex and fascinating. It has incedidle power and at the same time it can be incredibly limiting, confining, and restricting. It can objectify and distance or bring something unknown alive in a mind.

It’s a remarkable thing.

Language can also embody history. Searching for the history of a word or an expression can reveal the migration and changes of ideas, cultures and people over time and place. The origin of a word can reveal a treasure chest of meanings both accumulated and carved away over time.

Bill Ryan
24th October 2019, 16:32
Excellent! :thumbsup: So to kick off, here's maybe an aphorism to consider. (Think about it, or maybe talk about it!)

We don't talk the way we think. We think the way we talk.

Jayke
24th October 2019, 19:04
Love these sentiments by Percy Shelley (1792-1822), in his work ‘a defence of poetry’, they seem very pertinent to our current age...





...the present state of the cultivation of poetry, and a defence of the attempt to idealize the modern forms of manners and opinions, and compel them into a subordination to the imaginative and creative faculty. For the literature of England, an energetic development of which has ever preceded or accompanied a great and free development of the national will, has arisen as it were from a new birth.

In spite of the low - thoughted envy which would undervalue contemporary merit, our own will be a memorable age in intellectual achievements, and we live among such philosophers and poets as surpass beyond comparison any who have appeared since the last national struggle for civil and religious liberty. The most unfailing herald, companion, and follower of the awakening of a great people to work a beneficial change in opinion or institution, is poetry. At such periods there is an accumulation of the power of communicating and receiving intense and impassioned conceptions respecting man and nature.

The person in whom this power resides, may often, as far as regards many portions of their nature, have little apparent correspondence with that spirit of good of which they are the ministers. But even whilst they deny and abjure, they are yet compelled to serve, that power which is seated on the throne of their own soul. It is impossible to read the compositions of the most celebrated writers of the present day without being startled with the electric life which burns within their words. They measure the circumference and sound the depths of human nature with a comprehensive and all penetrating spirit, and they are themselves perhaps the most sincerely astonished at its manifestations; for it is less their spirit than the spirit of the age. Poets are the hierophants of an unapprehended inspiration; the mirrors of the gigantic shadows which futurity casts upon the present; the words which express what they understand not; the trumpets which sing to battle, and feel not what they inspire; the influence which is moved not, but moves. Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world.

This last section highlighted in red always gives me goosebumps. :flower:

Valerie Villars
24th October 2019, 21:43
Jayke, that reminds me of a quote by Lenore Kandel.

"When a society becomes afraid of its poets, it is afraid of itself."

I love poetry by the way.

Ernie Nemeth
24th October 2019, 22:12
'hierophant': from French - hieros + phainein = to show, A Greek priest of Eleusinian mysteries, advocate, expositor

unknown by spellcheck

noted

While we are on this plane, words are what unite us. It is important to be precise, sometimes it is impossible to be accurate...

Peter UK
24th October 2019, 23:06
I love poetry by the way.

Any particular favourite poets?

shaberon
25th October 2019, 04:35
With regards to poetry, I have come across a view of Proto-Indo European which suggests this language was not a "refinement of caveman grunts", but, itself, was either poetry, or meant to be sung.

Of course, that cannot really be proved one way or the other, but it's kind of how I would like to see "all" language used. If we think the way we talk, if the things we said were all cheers and invocations of something superb, we would be in a different state than most of us are now.

This is the opposite of Big Boss who walks into a room and everyone's throat feels like they're being choked.

I really have an issue about this, I feel as if any type of harmful speech is a moral crime, and the problem is, since it's not an actual crime, the people who do it cannot be stopped.

Almost any type of beneficial speech is really a blessing. Although speech is not the only form of language, I would say there is something about it that is incredibly more powerful than, for instance, this page.

I haven't personally seen the results, but Brown University has done a Neurolinguistic study on members of Maitreya Gompa in Upper Mustang near the Nepal-Tibet border. Part of what is used in mantra is really just the alphabet, breaking down speech into its basic components, and taking a really close look at how words are formed, how speech affects consciousness.

There are a few kinds of animals here and I find no problem telling them words that would, say, get one fired from work, but, because I say it in a nice way, they schmooze on me. I also give them mantra to give them life avoiding rebirth in a lower state, and so this makes it a specific piece of language used in a way that I can observe affecting consciousness, and, there is definitely something to it depending on skill.

The mouth is like the brain, it has basically two choices, heaven or hell. But it seems to me if you don't declare a heavenly choice with some kind of sacred speech, invocation, verse, etc., then it is only lukewarm and will get erased. I suppose most people feel awkward about singing and are not very good at it, and why places with traditional village folk music have something very valuable and I hope they do not all get whitewashed.

Speech as sound blends into music, and, as a musical type, I am unable to understand non-musical personalities. I don't get it. I find that I am able to remove the inner, automatic mental voice and replace it with either sound, or, I guess, geometry. One's head does tend to repeat what it perceives as one's own voice. The actual one, and the subliminal one, are linked, and I suppose it is a matter of control. Most of the readership here probably has a fair amount of clarity, but it seems to me that many ordinary people have hundreds if not thousands of mental shells placing serious pressure on the actual and subliminal voices, and since I, at least, relatively have few, there is some kind of palpable difference like between fog and dew.

Ernie Nemeth
25th October 2019, 16:16
If I did not know who you are, in terms of your posting, I would not understand what you are saying.

But I do, so I do.

I often sing my words. I sing to my lover and I sing to my cat. Every day, too. I just sing my words instead of talking.

"Pussy cat, pussy cat, I love you. Yes I do. I really do." That one works for both of my main significant others...

Peter UK
25th October 2019, 21:19
I often sing my words. I sing to my lover and I sing to my cat. Every day, too. I just sing my words instead of talking.

"Pussy cat, pussy cat, I love you. Yes I do. I really do." That one works for both of my main significant others...

Very nice and very apt.

:)

Valerie Villars
25th October 2019, 21:50
And on that note Peter, my favorite poets are musicians, Shakespeare and Walt Whitman. :)

Peter UK
25th October 2019, 22:13
my favorite poets are musicians, Shakespeare and Walt Whitman. :)

Okay we will continue to make merry here.

:)

Cara
26th October 2019, 08:21
Excellent! :thumbsup: So to kick off, here's maybe an aphorism to consider. (Think about it, or maybe talk about it!)

We don't talk the way we think. We think the way we talk.


Bill asked an interesting question about the intertwining of language and thought.

Here's Wilhelm von Humboldt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_von_Humboldt) (a Prussian philosopher, linguist, government functionary, diplomat, and founder of the Humboldt University of Berlin)


"Man lives with his objects chiefly - in fact, since he is feeling and acting depends on his perceptions, one may say exclusively - as language presents them to him. By the same process whereby he spins language out of his own being, he ensnares himself in it; and each language draws a magic circle round the people to which it belongs, a circle from which there is no escape save by stepping out of it into another."
Quoted in "Language and Myth", Ernst Cassirer (here: https://archive.org/details/ErnstCassirerLanguageAndMyth)

~~~~


With regards to poetry, I have come across a view of Proto-Indo European which suggests this language was not a "refinement of caveman grunts", but, itself, was either poetry, or meant to be sung.

Of course, that cannot really be proved one way or the other, but it's kind of how I would like to see "all" language used. If we think the way we talk, if the things we said were all cheers and invocations of something superb, we would be in a different state than most of us are now.

This is the opposite of Big Boss who walks into a room and everyone's throat feels like they're being choked.

I really have an issue about this, I feel as if any type of harmful speech is a moral crime, and the problem is, since it's not an actual crime, the people who do it cannot be stopped.

Almost any type of beneficial speech is really a blessing. Although speech is not the only form of language, I would say there is something about it that is incredibly more powerful than, for instance, this page.

I haven't personally seen the results, but Brown University has done a Neurolinguistic study on members of Maitreya Gompa in Upper Mustang near the Nepal-Tibet border. Part of what is used in mantra is really just the alphabet, breaking down speech into its basic components, and taking a really close look at how words are formed, how speech affects consciousness.

There are a few kinds of animals here and I find no problem telling them words that would, say, get one fired from work, but, because I say it in a nice way, they schmooze on me. I also give them mantra to give them life avoiding rebirth in a lower state, and so this makes it a specific piece of language used in a way that I can observe affecting consciousness, and, there is definitely something to it depending on skill.

The mouth is like the brain, it has basically two choices, heaven or hell. But it seems to me if you don't declare a heavenly choice with some kind of sacred speech, invocation, verse, etc., then it is only lukewarm and will get erased. I suppose most people feel awkward about singing and are not very good at it, and why places with traditional village folk music have something very valuable and I hope they do not all get whitewashed.

Speech as sound blends into music, and, as a musical type, I am unable to understand non-musical personalities. I don't get it. I find that I am able to remove the inner, automatic mental voice and replace it with either sound, or, I guess, geometry. One's head does tend to repeat what it perceives as one's own voice. The actual one, and the subliminal one, are linked, and I suppose it is a matter of control. Most of the readership here probably has a fair amount of clarity, but it seems to me that many ordinary people have hundreds if not thousands of mental shells placing serious pressure on the actual and subliminal voices, and since I, at least, relatively have few, there is some kind of palpable difference like between fog and dew.

I heard on a podcast (apologies, I can't remember which one) that there are some who propose that communication was originally sung, not spoken.

Up until I was in my 30s, I had a really difficult time with singing - although I can sing, when I tried to do it under any kind of attention, my voice would simply disappear. When I "found my singing voice" - I also found I was able to say things more directly and clearly, and give a more forthright opinion.

~~~~

In Leonard Bernstein's Harvard Lectures, The Unanswered Question, he explores some ideas about language and music. Lecture number two looks at a grammar of language (he's using Chomsky's theories here) and suggests a similar grammar for music.

Here is lecture 2 (the whole set of lectures is very interesting):
r_fxB6yrDVo

Ernie Nemeth
26th October 2019, 17:52
Back in the day, Catholics used to sing all the words to the ceremony. There was no spoken word, everyone sang. Only the sermon from the bible was spoken - in latin...

That's all gone now.

shaberon
27th October 2019, 00:16
When I "found my singing voice" - I also found I was able to say things more directly and clearly, and give a more forthright opinion.


That's pretty much what I mean by "power". You generate a skill which has a direct impact on others in terms of consciousness. It is hard to say exactly what it is, but "singing voice" is not "bicycle", for some reason it is in its own category.

Once you know how it works, then, you also understand the opposite, how it fails, or how a lack of application on your part makes it weak or ineffective.


von Humboldt has somewhat paraphrased mantra practice:

"Man lives with his objects chiefly - in fact, since he is feeling and acting depends on his perceptions, one may say exclusively - as language presents them to him. By the same process whereby he spins language out of his own being, he ensnares himself in it; and each language draws a magic circle round the people to which it belongs, a circle from which there is no escape save by stepping out of it into another."

What he is saying figuratively or perhaps allusively seems pretty close to the conscious fact of leaving the mundane or "worldly circle" to produce another residence. The snare spinning does not operate there. Otherwise you would be moving to an apparently different worldly circle.

It seems like the snare is often an addiction. Dependency on ego or something like that. We call it craving an established "I". And then from the view of clarity, the thing is really a sin.

If we could find a deaf from birth person, they perhaps may not have developed the same kind of linguistic snare, but they could still grasp for an ego. So the two are not necessarily identical, but in a normal person, probably functionally inseparable.

Without the sound component of language, there could be the planet of tree people that take a hundred years to wave hello. Here, though, I think we are in a kind of magnetic tug between snares and non-snares particularly made of language.

Mike Gorman
27th October 2019, 08:40
This is a thread to consider and think about language.

Language has many different aspects, it might be considered as:
* a tool of thought,
* a means of communication,
* a way to express oneself,
* a system of logic,
* a method of representation,
* a set of symbols,
* the expression of a culture,
* a device to store ideas,
* a way to capture experience and feelings,
* a technique to persuade,
* a pattern of interaction,
... and many more things.

As someone who loves to read and who writes quite a bit (jottings, notes, journals, poems, ...), I find language entrancing, rich, complex and fascinating. It has incedidle power and at the same time it can be incredibly limiting, confining, and restricting. It can objectify and distance or bring something unknown alive in a mind.

It’s a remarkable thing.

Language can also embody history. Searching for the history of a word or an expression can reveal the migration and changes of ideas, cultures and people over time and place. The origin of a word can reveal a treasure chest of meanings both accumulated and carved away over time.

This is interesting to me, because I am always working towards inviting literate people to consider the WWW as a vast publishing medium, which might sound a little obvious, but everywhere I look the Web is being trivialised and denigrated, being made out to be something harmful and uncomfortable, toxic even.
We must first understand that language, being the formal expression of human communication is THE means for our species to differentiate itself from the purely 'animal' dimension.
We take our languages and our communications very much for granted.
However, just stopping ourselves for one minute to consider it: Nothing that has taken place, and will take place in our human world, across our different societies would be even possible unless we can communicate.
This is rather like one of those obvious truths which seems so obvious to us, that we dismiss it as being 'common sense'.
Always, it is this region of 'common sense' that reveals the most interesting aspects of our human nature.
Because certain things are completely accepted, they are the strongest indicators as to how we think.
Now, the WWW is not just a clever invention, it is the most significant invention since the Printing Press in terms of amplifying our intelligence, and enabling vast new forms of our human social intentions to be made tangible.
The World Wide Web is language enhanced into almost God-like power.
First there was the 'Word', and the Word was made flesh, then we took the word and built entirely new worlds.
I think we need to slow down, just a little, and consider just what this WWW is all about, and this I see as being one of my intentions, to clarify and enable some people to fully understand the true scope, and scale of this WWW. If you are interested with language, and how 'the limits of my language are the limits of my world' (Thank you Wittgenstein) then you are able to see just how much further out our world has been pushed by the original work of Tim Berners-Lee.
For me, the world has been utterly changed via the emergence of the Web since 1990, we see this all around us, but many people are still not understanding the full implications.

Ernie Nemeth
27th October 2019, 17:49
I was thinking about nomenclature recently.

I thought that in many circumstances the only difference between a lay person and a professional is the job-related nomenclature. I can keep up with scientific jargon to a point but I have to ask what is meant by this and that concatenated word. This slows down the conversation. I believe this is what students pay the big money to universities for - to learn the nomenclature of the respective disciplines. The ideas, in most cases, are simple enough for anyone to grasp. But the related words, studies and advances make discussion with a non-trained individual problematic. It is as if professions speak a very specific dialect that others do not know.

Language is a social construct. It relies on agreement and shared values.

Take for example the use of language by the youth of today. They can hardly string a proper sentence together on a piece of paper with plenty of lead time, let alone try and communicate in real time (ie. have a real conversation). Their language is truncated, spoken in phrases not sentences. And their vocabulary is atrocious.

Language requires intelligence. It requires a broad base of knowledge. The broader the base the wider the understanding and the more comprehensive the command of the language.

Proper communication involves other than spoken words. It is these hints and clues that make true communication possible. To understand a sentence uttered by a person, the entire context of the situation must be considered because clues to the non-verbal aspect of communication often comes from the actual situation or event where the communication takes place.

The exact same sentence can have an entirely different meaning depending on context.

Language needs structure. It needs a framework of common experience upon which to draw equivalents and determine meaning. Nomenclature is this 'common experience' that includes topic specific language, previously accepted facts, and indecipherable communication privy to only the indictrinated.

Cara
29th October 2019, 09:11
Thank you Mike and Ernie, some very interesting musings. A few snippets that particularly struck me:


... We take our languages and our communications very much for granted.
However, just stopping ourselves for one minute to consider it: Nothing that has taken place, and will take place in our human world, across our different societies would be even possible unless we can communicate.
...

The World Wide Web is language enhanced into almost God-like power.
...
I think we need to slow down, just a little, and consider just what this WWW is all about...

That's an interesting way of looking at the web - a kind of supercharged language. I agree: I don't think we realise how significantly it may shape - and has already shaped - who and what we are.



...I thought that in many circumstances the only difference between a lay person and a professional is the job-related nomenclature. ... I believe this is what students pay the big money to universities for - to learn the nomenclature of the respective disciplines. ...

Language is a social construct. It relies on agreement and shared values.

Take for example the use of language by the youth of today. ... Their language is truncated, spoken in phrases not sentences. And their vocabulary is atrocious.

...

Language ... needs a framework of common experience upon which to draw equivalents and determine meaning. Nomenclature is this 'common experience' that includes topic specific language, previously accepted facts, and indecipherable communication privy to only the indoctrinated.

This prompts me to think about how eagerly some people quickly adopt and use the latest technology jargon words without knowing what the meaning is. It's an interesting type of social signalling, almost as if they're saying: "I am up to date, I know all about the latest and best".

Maybe a similar mechanism underlies the virtue-signalling tweets and Facebook posts each time there is some kind of tragedy or unhappy event?

Cara
29th October 2019, 09:14
This is an interesting article written by Paul Kingsnorth about language and its power and influence. His description of the current use of language in the political environment is rather perceptive.

Here he is narrating the article:
https://emergencemagazine.org/app/uploads/2019/05/Paul_Kingsnorth_The_Language_of_the_Master_Narration_2019-05-08_WEB.mp3

And here is the text:

The Language of the Master
by Paul Kingsnorth

What defines a human? What is the essence of what we are?

Perhaps it is the ability, and the desire, to ask questions like that.

At some level, the “culture” inhabited by people like us—people who read, who write, who think, who worry, who accept these questions as valid—is a culture of separation; an orthodoxy of subject and object. Something separates “us” from “them,” where “us” is Homo sapiens, a species of upright hominid, and “them” is every other living being that inhabits this living Earth. What is the source of this separation? Is it God? Were we created to be different, to be masters, or stewards? Did we “evolve” our differences? Why do we think we are different, anyway? Is it because we are the only species that writes essays?

These are circular questions. Like Earth and its seasons, they never stop turning.

What is the dividing line between us and them? Is there one at all? In one sense, no. We are a primate species, virtually genetically identical to our closest hominid relative, the chimpanzee. We share many of their behavioral characteristics, and have much in common with other mammals, with all life. We are born, we die, we compete, we cooperate, we reproduce, and the patterns in which we do all of these things are clearly predictable from our evolutionary history.

Yet we are, at the same time, kidding ourselves with this sort of talk. We are not just another species of ape, and even those, like myself, who would like to think so—who would like to believe that some return might be possible—know that it is not. We are apart. The very fact of that apartness is what has, amongst other things, reduced the numbers of other apes to critical levels and changed the biosphere of the planet itself. Something makes humans different: makes us so all-dominating, so all-consuming, that in the eyeblink of time in which our species has been around—a mere 300,000 years, out of the 4.6 billion that Earth has existed—we have engineered a planetary shift bigger than anything seen in eons, we have done so knowingly, and we still, despite all we know, refuse to stop.

What is it that gives us this power? Fire? Tools? Weapons? Or the thing that is each of these, and all of them at once: language?

Language is both our most effective tool and our most powerful weapon. If you want to see how powerful this weapon is, look around. A simple conversation can be a skirmish: setting out positions, pushing back and forth, testing the ground. Most obviously, the way we use language when we disagree is often militarized; and when the issues under discussion are existential, the linguistic warfare can break out into the open.

In his essay “Politics and the English Language,” written in 1946, George Orwell explains how language is “an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.” Writing soon after the defeat of fascism, but with communism now aggressively on the ascendant and clashing with the liberal-capitalist West, Orwell had plenty of opportunities to study how language was used dishonestly to fight political and cultural wars, and how the winners would use the opportunity to rewrite the speech patterns—and thus the ways of seeing—of the losers. Since the words we use reflect our worldview, controlling language helps control the picture that we see of the world.

Nothing much changes. In the riven political and cultural atmosphere of today’s Anglophone West, we don’t have to look far to see the use of language tied up in cultural and political battles. Most obviously, it is seen in the daily struggle to use words to pin down an opponent. Define the terms that others must use, and you already have the upper hand. If you want to caricature the arguments of those who speak out against the current liberal-capitalist consensus, for example, you call them “populists.” What does this mean? Nobody agrees. But it is an effective way of diminishing the worldview of your opponents, or simply miring them in argument or denial.

Similarly, and usually from another perspective, accusing your opponents of being “politically correct”—another label that few people ever consciously apply to themselves—has a similar effect. If you’re feeling more aggressive—or simply losing the argument—you might get out the big guns. Your opponent may become a “snowflake” or a “social justice warrior,” a “hater” or a “fascist.” By this point, war has broken out into the open. Now, people are not arguing about issues—about ideas, proposals, feelings, approaches—they are trading in which insult is most likely to stick. In the age of easy-click social media outrage, these kinds of linguistic skirmishes have a depressing, routine familiarity.

Dishonest use of language is one way of using words as a weapon. Another is designing, and enforcing, linguistic—and thus, cultural—orthodoxy. This kind of language policing was an open feature of state communism, in which the incorrect use of, or resistance to, officially-approved terminologies could lead to a show trial and even death—a situation memorialized by Orwell through his invention of “Newspeak” for his novel 1984.

But while language—and thus, thought—policing is most obvious in totalitarian regimes, some form of it goes on in every culture. Language policing is a timeless method by which a cultural or political elite establishes and holds on to power. The ideology of that elite may vary—communist or fascist, progressive or conservative—but their enthusiasm for telling the masses how to use language is never dimmed.

In Britain a century ago, for example, there were clear linguistic boundaries which writers could not cross if they did not want to see their books banned or their reputations damaged, and the markers for what was “decent” public language were clear and enforced. What today would be regarded as garden-variety swearing was then regarded as career-ending obscenity. In Britain today, as across much of the Western world, these conservative boundaries have dissolved with the culture that birthed them, but expression is not free. They have simply been replaced by a new form of linguistic correctness, maintained by a new elite, which is now not traditionalist or conservative but leftist and liberal.

Today there exists an unofficial political and cultural line, a heavily-policed linguistic orthodoxy which all of us know we cannot challenge without a penalty. The punishments for crossing this line—for expressing an unorthodox opinion, using incorrect vocabulary, or challenging those who police the orthodoxy—can range from public abuse on social media all the way to losing jobs, livelihoods, and reputations. The chances are that if you pop over to your Twitter feed right now, you will see somebody getting this treatment.

These are the swamps into which our linguistic weapons have sunk us. Language is used dishonestly across shifting political and cultural spectrums to disguise intentions and to make excuses for tyranny of both mind and body. What ought to be our most glorious tool—symbolic thought, abstracted and represented in words—has become a crude weapon of warfare. Why?

I AM A WRITER, but it has taken me a long time to circle around, in my life and work, to this question. What is language? What is written language, especially? For it is writing that defines our use of language in the modern age. We see writing and reading—“literacy,” as we call it—as one of the basic necessities of life. Few people throughout history have been able to read or write, but across the world now, literacy is promoted as an unquestionable good. We measure its progress obsessively and work to extend its reach.

But the ability to read and write is also the ability to abstract. You are running your eyes right now across some marks on a screen. Why? Because they convey meaning, and that meaning is conveyed through a shared agreement about abstraction. You and I agree on what meaning a conceptual term like “abstraction,” or indeed, “conceptual,” conveys. I use a word, these marks convey that word to you, and you hopefully understand me. It should be clear already how much scope for confusion this causes. How do I know that my “abstraction” is the same as yours? I don’t. I can only do what I have trained myself to do over my long years as a writer: use these symbols in the best combination I can and hope for the best. In doing so, I struggle to convey the depth and meaning of my real, embodied human experience in terms which, at best, are weirdly abstracted from actual life.

Most humans throughout history would barely have understood the purpose of staring immobile at some marks on paper or glowing screen. The notion that they could help anyone to understand the complexity of lived reality would have seemed absurd; as it still does to many. Sometimes writers can forget how pointless, or just baffling, writing for a living seems to many people. We can forget how much we deal in abstraction. We can confuse these words for the reality they are intended to convey. This confusion—of the signifier and the signified, the original reality and its distilled essence—is one of the reasons we end up with language wars. We think, at some level, that if we can control the signifier, then that control will bleed out into reality. We think that using our symbols to define reality will change the nature of reality itself.

Words are not real. I think we have forgotten this. In a culture that increasingly deals with abstracts, it is a dangerous form of forgetting.

The cultural ecologist David Abram, in his book The Spell of the Sensuous, claims to have identified the moment when written language jumped the boundary from rootedness to abstraction. The building blocks of Semitic written language—the aleph-beth—he explains, were a series of characters each based on a consonant in spoken language. There were twenty-two of them, and with their advent “a new distance opens between human culture and the rest of nature.” Why? Because, unlike every written language before it (Egyptian hieroglyphics perhaps being the best-known example), the aleph-beth—which later became, via the Greeks, our own alphabet—was made up of written characters which no longer directly represented an actual thing out in the real world.

The original letter A, writes Abram, may once have represented the shape of an ox’s head; O may have been an eye; Q the back end and tail of a monkey. But once the Semites got hold of them, turned them into abstract symbols, and wrote them down—with the Greeks later finishing the job—the link between culture and nature was finally lost. Written language was no longer visually tied to the world of physical, real, naturally-occurring things. Letters were now only marks, signifying nothing but their own internal meaning. Humans could speak to other humans in a code understood by, and inspired by, only themselves. Language had become internalized. It no longer represented the forms of the world around them. It represented only what they saw in their minds.

The question then became: what kind of minds?
From: https://emergencemagazine.org/story/the-language-of-the-master/

petra
29th October 2019, 18:14
Excellent! :thumbsup: So to kick off, here's maybe an aphorism to consider. (Think about it, or maybe talk about it!)

We don't talk the way we think. We think the way we talk.


Interesting to ponder....
I tend to disagree, but not because I feel like I am talking the way I think.
I just think I definitely absolutely most certainly do NOT think the way I talk :)

EDIT: It's certainly confusing, really makes me wonder what I'd think like if I never had any words

AutumnW
30th October 2019, 00:39
Like a bird on the wire
Like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free

Leonard Cohen

This is how I feel about beautiful lyrics. They free me. Words, used with precision, grace and flourish and set to music give me permission to feel the depths of emotion. Otherwise I am too distanced, too trapped in thought alone.

Sue (Ayt)
30th October 2019, 01:43
I was thinking about nomenclature recently.

I thought that in many circumstances the only difference between a lay person and a professional is the job-related nomenclature. I can keep up with scientific jargon to a point but I have to ask what is meant by this and that concatenated word. This slows down the conversation. I believe this is what students pay the big money to universities for - to learn the nomenclature of the respective disciplines. The ideas, in most cases, are simple enough for anyone to grasp. But the related words, studies and advances make discussion with a non-trained individual problematic. It is as if professions speak a very specific dialect that others do not know.



I agree with this idea of nomenclature. But sometimes I do admittedly think of it snidely, as "buzzwords". Just knowing those buzzwords can put one in the "expert" club, whether or not it is deserved. Just a little scratch below the surface can sometimes make it apparent that that emperor has no clothes! Perhaps some of the more elite professions are even designed that way intentionally?

One thing I have noticed as I get older, is that it is when I don't try so hard, but just let my thoughts flow out of my mouth (or fingers), that people actually seem to "grok" more. It is almost like a "work without effort" type of thing. This realization greatly surprised me!

Ernie Nemeth
30th October 2019, 18:17
when you "don't try so hard" you allow your authentic self to do what it does naturally - communicate without a vested interest

Peter UK
31st October 2019, 02:24
when you "don't try so hard" you allow your authentic self to do what it does naturally - communicate without a vested interest

Very nice and hard to think other than it being absolutely true.

So I'll stop trying.

:)

EFO
4th November 2019, 21:48
Considering language...and telling the truth...
1-Harald Haarmann
Danube Script from Old Europe 5000 - 3500 BC
"Harald Haarmann (world's leading expert on scripts and languages) states that the Danube script is the oldest known writing in the world. Much older than Mesopotamian writing. The Danube culture was an egalitarian civilization which existed 8000 years ago in Eastern Europe (Romania, Bulgaria, Moldavia .....) and is indeed the cradle of civilization, not the Middle East."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyEcUR_wnsU
2-Micheál Ledwith
"Not Romanian language is a Latin language,but Latin language is a Romanian language"
The statement start from 12 sec. mark.It's only a segment of a longest interviews as I remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duxk_EJAwo0
3-Carme Huerta
No translation.For Spanish and Romanian speakers
"We don't came from latin"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a62k4iAPzjM
4-Marija Gimbutas
The Old Europe Lost Civilization Documentary Marija Gimbutas En Ita

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8IZ6t40Lf0
and not to mention that the island of Achilles,Homer's hero from Iliad,Leuce,is localized by Pausania,Pindar,Euripide,Maximus of Tyr,Ptolemeu,Filostrat and others at the mouth of Danube which is proved recently by LiDAR satellite scans.

And these are only some examples of how worldwide the history is still twisted today...

rgray222
5th November 2019, 02:00
Thoughts are singularly the most powerful force available to humanity. We can choose to use this force constructively or destructively. Thoughts turn into words which have abundant and at times endless energy and power. Critical thought leads to precise words which can cause and end war. Precise words can cause pain and even death but that is not how most cultures want to move through the human experience. We desire to find love, search for joy, achieve satisfaction, mollify confusion and alleviate our fears. Communication makes the human experience worth living. Of course, communication can also be achieved without words.


"Words have magical power. They can bring either the greatest happiness or deepest despair. They can transfer knowledge from teacher to pupil; words enable the orator to sway his audience and dictate its decision. Words are capable of arousing the strongest emotions and prompting all men's actions."  Sigmund Freud

I love this quote by Freud but to make the words more precise................I would have said;

Thoughts lead to words which have magical power.

Now you have my thoughts on the subject.
R

Cara
5th November 2019, 06:33
Thoughts are singularly the most powerful force available to humanity. We can choose to use this force constructively or destructively. Thoughts turn into words which have abundant and at times endless energy and power. Critical thought leads to precise words which can cause and end war. Precise words can cause pain and even death but that is not how most cultures want to move through the human experience. We desire to find love, search for joy, achieve satisfaction, mollify confusion and alleviate our fears. Communication makes the human experience worth living. Of course, communication can also be achieved without words.


"Words have magical power. They can bring either the greatest happiness or deepest despair. They can transfer knowledge from teacher to pupil; words enable the orator to sway his audience and dictate its decision. Words are capable of arousing the strongest emotions and prompting all men's actions."  Sigmund Freud

I love this quote by Freud but to make the words more precise................I would have said;

Thoughts lead to words which have magical power.

Now you have my thoughts on the subject.
R

Thank you rgray222. It's interesting that you bring up the magic of language.

Yesterday, EFO shared a fascinating video about John Dee and the magic Enochian language :star:. It's really quite a tale involving Shakespeare, medieval spies, and the creation of a new hermetic world:


Fermat's last theorem story sound like John Dee's alchemy formula story.

Angel Alphabets-John Dee and Shakespeare by Vincent Bridges, Stars and Stones
(1:20:23 hrs.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef0OKbT70bY&t=4065s

shaberon
6th November 2019, 06:39
The Danube culture was an egalitarian civilization which existed 8000 years ago in Eastern Europe (Romania, Bulgaria, Moldavia .....) and is indeed the cradle of civilization, not the Middle East."


I believe there is something to this, i. e. Bosnian Pyramid.

However it seems to me we are better off saying "a" cradle of civilization instead of "the" cradle.

Baalbek, Lebanon, and Dwarka, India, are somewhere in that age.

The oldest carbon-datable sign I would say is wine and beer from around the Yellow River in China around 12,000 years old. That shows surplus agriculture, jugs in houses, and a bit of knowledge.

The Romanian words I remember are galben and albastru. I learned some at one point in time and it seemed similar to Italian with more "u" than "i", but some of it seemed non-related or not like Italian.

However if it is correct that zero is called zero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_numbers#Numbers_from_1_to_10), this comes from Arabic sefr, or cipher. Therefor even if Latin derives from Romanian, the concept or writing or word for zero has come from the same source as anywhere else in Europe. It is likely that India (https://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/the-origin-of-the-word-zero/) was the first to write or use the numeral zero, but it is called sunya or bindu, which is plainly the Yoga doctrine. If cipher is also a code and Sephirah is counting which "pluralizes" to Sephiroth, that would be Kabbala.

Here are what I find of Romanian numbers, and will add Sanskrit and we can see how close these are to other Latin or Greek languages:

1 unu.............eka
2 doi...............dvi
3 trei...............tri
4 patru........chatur
5 cinci.........panca
6 șase...........shad
7 șapte........sapta
8 opt............asta
9 nouă..........nava
10 zece............das

Greek seems a little closer at five, penta, but not at six.

English then has two unique words, eleven and twelve, before it starts saying thirteen or three-ten. Romanian and Sanskrit both appear to go one-ten, two-ten, etc., like Greek, whereas French has several unique words and then does it backwards at ten-seven. Although there is variance, Indian numbers are mostly intelligible to western languages, except for the Arabic zero.

silvanelf
7th November 2019, 18:29
I would recommend the thin book:



LANGUAGE, THOUGHT, and REALITY
Selected writings of Benjamin Lee Whorf
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6197196M/LANGUAGE_THOUGHT_and_REALITY

An excerpt from the foreword:


As a writer, I have long been interested in semantics, sometimes defined as "the systematic study of meaning." It does a writer no harm, I hold, to know what he is talking about. Whorf, using linguistics as a tool for the analysis of meaning, has made an important contribution to semantics. No careful student of communication and meaning can afford to neglect him. One might add that no philosophical scientist or scientific philosopher can afford to neglect him. Linguistics, he boldly proclaims, "is fundamental to the theory of thinking, and in the last analysis to all human sciences." He is probably right. Every considerable advance in science, such as quantum theory, involves a crisis in communication. The discoverers have to explain first to themselves, and then to the scientific world, what has been found.

Whorf as I read him makes two cardinal hypothesis:
First, that all higher levels of thinking are dependent of language.
Second, that the structure of the language one habitually uses influences the manner in which one understands his environment. The picture of the universe shifts from tongue to tongue.

see link above

silvanelf
8th November 2019, 15:38
About the difference between random text and meaningful language

Just wait, it will get much more interesting ... even frightening. At first we will take a look at random text, thereafter we will introduce a few concepts which can improve the signal to noise ratio tremendously.

Step 1: random text -- the infinite monkey theorem


The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare. In fact, the monkey would almost surely type every possible finite text an infinite number of times. However, the probability that monkeys filling the observable universe would type a complete work such as Shakespeare's Hamlet is so tiny that the chance of it occurring during a period of time hundreds of thousands of orders of magnitude longer than the age of the universe is extremely low (but technically not zero).

In this context, "almost surely" is a mathematical term with a precise meaning, and the "monkey" is not an actual monkey, but a metaphor for an abstract device that produces an endless random sequence of letters and symbols. One of the earliest instances of the use of the "monkey metaphor" is that of French mathematician Émile Borel in 1913,[1] but the first instance may have been even earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem#Random_document_generation


Step 2: random text -- but restricted by a vocabulary and grammar rules

"... even human readers might be taken in by the effective use of jargon ... a reliable gibberish filter requires a careful holistic review by several peer domain experts"



More sophisticated methods are used in practice for natural language generation. If instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans (at least on a cursory reading) as shown in the experiments with SCIgen, snarXiv, and the Postmodernism Generator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem#Random_document_generation

SCIgen




One useful purpose for such a program is to auto-generate submissions to conferences that you suspect might have very low submission standards. A prime example, which you may recognize from spam in your inbox, is SCI/IIIS and its dozens of co-located conferences (check out the very broad conference description on the WMSCI 2005 website).
— About SCIgen[3]

Computing writer Stan Kelly-Bootle noted in ACM Queue that many sentences in the "Rooter" paper were individually plausible, which he regarded as posing a problem for automated detection of hoax articles. He suggested that even human readers might be taken in by the effective use of jargon ("The pun on root/router is par for MIT-graduate humor, and at least one occurrence of methodology is mandatory") and attribute the paper's apparent incoherence to their own limited knowledge. His conclusion was that "a reliable gibberish filter requires a careful holistic review by several peer domain experts".[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIgen

The Postmodernism Generator

Beware the note at the bottom of the text: "The essay you have just seen is completely meaningless and was randomly generated by the Postmodernism Generator."




2. Discourses of futility

The primary theme of the works of Tarantino is the role of the poet as
reader. However, Finnis[6] implies that we have to choose
between rationalism and the postmaterial paradigm of expression. Lacan promotes
the use of capitalist deappropriation to analyse and read language.

“Society is intrinsically impossible,” says Sontag. But many discourses
concerning the fatal flaw, and subsequent futility, of neomodern class may be
discovered. The main theme of Drucker’s[7] essay on
Foucaultist power relations is the difference between class and society.

In the works of Stone, a predominant concept is the concept of capitalist
art. However, an abundance of theories concerning rationalism exist. Bataille’s
analysis of subsemioticist nihilism states that sexual identity, perhaps
paradoxically, has intrinsic meaning.

http://www.elsewhere.org/journal/pomo/


Step 3: AI which is able to produce a fully plausible news article given a two sentence input from a human hand

Some kind of human input is necessary as a "seed."


In February 2019, the OpenAI group published the Generative Pre-trained Transformer 2 (GPT-2) artificial intelligence to GitHub, which is able to produce a fully plausible news article given a two sentence input from a human hand. The AI was so effective that instead of publishing the full code, the group chose to publish a scaled-back version and released a statement regarding "concerns about large language models being used to generate deceptive, biased, or abusive language at scale."[28]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem#Random_document_generation



Researchers, scared by their own work, hold back “deepfakes for text” AI

-- snip --

Given present-day concerns about how fake content has been used to both generate money for "fake news" publishers and potentially spread misinformation and undermine public debate, GPT-2's output certainly qualifies as concerning. Unlike other text generation "bot" models, such as those based on Markov chain algorithms, the GPT-2 "bot" did not lose track of what it was writing about as it generated output, keeping everything in context.

For example: given a two-sentence entry, GPT-2 generated a fake science story (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample1) on the discovery of unicorns in the Andes, a story about the economic impact of Brexit, a report about a theft of nuclear materials (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample2) near Cincinnati, a story about Miley Cyrus being caught shoplifting (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample3), and a student's report on the causes of the US Civil War (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample6).

Each matched the style of the genre from the writing prompt, including manufacturing quotes from sources. In other samples, GPT-2 generated a rant about why recycling is bad (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample8), a speech written by John F. Kennedy's brain transplanted into a robot (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample7) (complete with footnotes about the feat itself), and a rewrite of a scene from The Lord of the Rings (https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/#sample5).

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/researchers-scared-by-their-own-work-hold-back-deepfakes-for-text-ai/

Anka
23rd November 2019, 19:26
I don't know if that would help thinking about Language ...

I think language is the fundamental imprint in the broad evocation of freedom, intransigence, conviction, philosophy, courage and love, experiencing feelings beyond any imagination, if not least our way of being at the base of the Source Soul in the essence code of a single word.

I have written over 500 poems only about spirituality, ether, civilizations from the Great Universe, the evolution of the Universe and the transformation of human consciousness and in my case, the sensation, the intuition, the nourishment, the emotion, cut off the meaning of the language I wrote in the first reality most of the time and gives me different skills in the second reality in a subordination of simple separable capacity naturally and
proportional to the moment of production, to actually experience an interaction with other cultures from other worlds.

I am the human being, who saw the power of living words in the light through what I experienced in writing and asked for mercy in understanding that language, I asked for and received only the meaning in exchange for the words ... what a translation ..., for
I shouted the meaning without a word, I shout and now hears me the Mother of the Earth Spirit who knows me and maybe an entire Universe through that language. Is it the language of my heart or something else?

I am human, however, and through the experiences that the human word cannot effectively pronounce, I suffer that I cannot reveal, I cannot tell a word or an expression exactly as they are, for the two are actually the Universe in a single experience that I can only experience.

It is not that I did not see them with my eyes, it is not because I did not feel them with my heart, it is not because they are preambles or unknowns, it is simply the mismatch of living under the human meaning to this ability to be able to transfer the visions that I see hearing them, in a language appropriate to our meaning.

The language is my absolute support in a silence that speaks and authenticates me in writing, my solar construction, my spiritual awakening and I will serve it in his conclusion meant to sink further into the depths of my soul from his own place of codified behavior, forever for any kind of language that can decode any good meaning.

Ernie Nemeth
24th November 2019, 14:55
In comparison, the numbers in Hungarian are unlike any other language:

egy keto harom negy ott hat het nyolsz kilensz tiz (pardon the spelling, and missing squiggles)

zero - shemi

There are no special words for eleven and twelve.

Hope this fits alright with Shaberon's and EFO's posts about The Romanian culture and the Bosnian language. Hungary, of course, is in that same region...

Ernie Nemeth
25th November 2019, 12:06
I forgot, there is one special word for numbers - husz - twenty. Why twenty? No idea.

So huszonegy, huszonketo...

then back to normal harminsz - thirty, negyven - forty, etc.

Anka
25th November 2019, 17:25
Contrary to the claim that the most beautiful conversational art is said to be silence, given the circumstances or values of knowing humanity and in a society in which we wake up and fall asleep talking through the huge offer of digital and non-digital intercommunications available and finally we are still alone, we are waiting for those words that have been shouting their names for too long to come out of us, and then we have reached the edge of our own consciousness, where we have long been enveloped in the individual language of our soul.

I lay here in the light of my soul the joy of rediscovering myself with you, the passion of traveling through the written lines to join you.

I hope you will be with me on this road, all lovers of light and development of good and beautiful and urge together to love everything around us for language really binds us all.

Allow me to give you all the gift of my language below, at the will of my Source, and to wish you all the good of the World with all my soul!

The word of life alive in the earthly soul I write
I transfer from the outside to fill the inside void
From inside to outside I look for the next wave
I transfer from writings that flow into eternity
The word in living matter becomes too difficult for me here
The value in the letter to a clean future soul who speaks
I accept the refrain in an accumulated truth of communication
In writing after writing you write them with your value
You leave pledge of living life in another form of living consciousness
There is nothing more useful than a word or thought that has gone
And the words flow quietly through me in radiation as from where in code language
And they come to reinforce meanings by far and nowhere
I live in the living exaltation in which energy take me when
The words make me a coat heavier than light
Against the background armed with expressions, I light up in peace
In dreamy sleep in old pleasure through resonance of a voice
I dream of oscillating transmissions in the balance of this translation
The earthquake in me that shook slightly from you
I plunge into the mountains that rise above me
I rise higher in the drop above the plane after the slightly interposed plane
I gather in drops I ease into an ephemeral flight of falls
With the clothing of the nature of language the power of being light, earth and water
My soul is too thirsty to speak for a way too short in such a long time.

(It is a poem without a rhyme because it is translated from my native language but the meaning has kept it and I send it to you with the greatest love,for the sake of any language communication tip that is different from what we know!):heart:

wnlight
25th November 2019, 22:19
@AutumnW - Thank you about bringing in Leonard Cohen. He came to my mind while reading this thread. I simply had not yet found the right words. :-)

Bill Ryan
19th December 2019, 01:24
I stumbled on this just now, and it truly delighted me. :)

Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvelous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.

Terry Pratchett

Sue (Ayt)
19th December 2019, 07:16
I stumbled on this just now, and it truly delighted me. :)


I've remember pondering on that word actually, de-light, when I read this quote:

"You have delighted us long enough."― Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Not sure I want to be de-lighted.
:ROFL:

Mike
19th December 2019, 08:09
I stumbled on this just now, and it truly delighted me. :)

Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvelous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.

Terry Pratchett




huh? what am i missing?:)

Bill Ryan
19th December 2019, 12:05
I stumbled on this just now, and it truly delighted me. :)
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvelous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.

Terry Pratchett



huh? what am i missing?:)Ha! (Made me laugh. :P )

Well, all those words (marvelous, fantastic, glamorous, enchanting, terrific) have changed their meaning. (A few years later, Pratchett might have added 'awesome'. :) )

I even looked up 'terrific' myself, in case Pratchett had that wrong. But he hadn't. We regard something that's 'terrific' as being extremely positive. But it originally meant 'causing terror'.

I have my own version of this with Lagunas Encantadas, the Spanish name for the mountain lakes where I had a weird experience (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?93672-Another-vicarious-adventure-and-another-Avalon-Cairn--for-the-Wawa-Grande-this-time-&p=1251841&viewfull=1#post1251841), my dog Mara was shaking with fear at something totally invisible, and was the area in which Ecuadorian mountaineer Wilson Serrano totally disappeared (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?93672-Another-vicarious-adventure-and-another-Avalon-Cairn--for-the-Wawa-Grande-this-time-&p=1242950&viewfull=1#post1242950) last year.

It translates as "Enchanted Lakes", which sounds like a very lovely place to be. But it really means "Haunted Lakes", because of the history of spooky, paranormal events there.

So, elves are (literally) "marvelous, fantastic, glamorous, enchanting, and terrific". But they're still not very nice. :)

Anka
2nd August 2020, 00:24
The language of all living beings has a multitude of methods of expression developed over the centuries, a kind of soundless communication in a multitude of transmission of this close and over culture, over centuries, is simply too broad, and very handy.
For example, the dance of bees announcing a source of nectar or the beautiful behavior of whales and dolphins in the splendor of communication, is an edifying form.

The development of the alphabet, long-distance communication, printing or writing on a material medium, telegraph, telephone, radio and now image communication, can be a whole study treatise on origin, essentiality or techniques, maybe.

Maybe the language of some emotions, or the body language is just as important, or maybe just a new language behavior can easily lead to the innocent play of the authenticity of human nature.
Communicating in a kind of honest paraverbal language, in simple and good intentions, focused in the moment of action, brings me the certainty of something new all the time as if the behavior gained, deserves the presence of both interlocutors or interlocutors deserve the conclusion further.

I had a discussion some time ago with a friend. In short, I said: "Here is my new address in case the internet and telephony" fall "globally" .. it was fun that I did not take into account the hypothesis of malfunction of the post either, and at the friend's suggestion: "I think we will have to manage to communicate telepathically then ?! I smiled, but I felt the importance in this difference ... it was wonderful, I will not forget that :):flower:

We feel like we are mandated to communicate, but we always manage to do this in fragments, maybe we need to understand the tactics of an entire process of encouraging the one in front of us first of all.

Maybe language should also be a stimulating event and not necessarily a technique, but a form of empathic intermediate natural reflex which is within itself much more, and maybe the coordinates are related to scaling into components of just giving, not in the form of programming, but in the form of a preconception in the conclusive hypothesis of having care and respect for the one to whom we offering the language.

The language in syntax often used, becomes a kind of objectively accessible hybrid, but the word can become very important if used in the most constructive positive sense, to help mankind.:heart:

For me, the universe of the "word" has brought fabulous "lexical awakenings" in terms of feeling, a fund of endless interpretability essential in diction and tonality of what we might call consciousness, but for anyone, language can also be an exercise in particular aptitude in the perfect sincere hypostasis of just being himself.

There can be no mistakes in the enthusiasm to express something sincere, this can be, at least for me, an uninterrupted communion of pure essential dialogue.:flower:

DeDukshyn
24th August 2020, 16:46
 
Language is a tool, and a rather limiting one - which is what it seems Bill has been alluding to in this thread. It is highly subjective and far more like an art, where your artistic tools are but simple and coarse.

I believe that language is an attempt to conceptualize understanding in a mutual way, but it seems a crude echo of real understanding that actually cannot be conveyed fully in any language, but perhaps can be mutually felt through a different type of communication system - namely one that relies on instinct, knowing, trusting -- one that utilizes our emotional centers. I suppose one would call this "telepathy", but without the limitations of language and linguistically structured thought.

I recall as a small child becoming upset about the vast limitations of my language. I remember being quite often misunderstood, trying to convey concepts, ideas, emotions, etc, that just could not be conveyed easily in linguistic terms, let alone the small amount I had learned up to that point. "Its not supposed to be like this!" I recall breaking down crying front of my mom, "Were supposed to be able to understand each other with our minds! Then we would understand!" I shouted at her.

I have learned and contemplated enough on the mechanics of language and its ability to limit the human mind to know that I had already known it well, intrinsically, as a child.





I present an excerpt from one of the books in my collection, that more eloquently describes the historical (ab)uses and limitations of language ...

"The term spelling is used to describe the mechanics of language. And spelling, in the sense of casting or projecting forth a binding illusion, has been the chief activity of historical languages.

Language is the mechanism of matter's spell, the means through which the spell is maintained from one generation to the next. Those who slumber beneath linguistic illusions limit themselves to the deficiencies, blind spots, and biases of a particular method of symbolism, which even at its best can convey no more than the consciousness of those who invented it. They imagine that without verbal, conceptual understanding there can be no understanding.

Understanding can be symbolized and to some extent conveyed through words, but understanding itself requires language no more than a bird requires a cage. Understanding comes only through experience. And for experience, there has been -- and never will be -- a substitute.

Instead of serving as a tool of your creative expression to help you sculpt and mold sound and light into forms of beauty and grace, your Babylonian primate tongues have defined you, limited you, and kept you in the narrow definition prisons of the cultures that gave them birth.

Belief systems are illusions of linguistically structured thought. They have been the means through which these guttural languages have limited your perception. They are cages created by words, imprisoning their makers. Even insights that accurately reflect reality cannot be preserved effectively by a belief system.

The very attempt to hold onto the Truth destroys its living nature. The same fruit cannot be both growing on the tree and preserved in a jar; it must be one, or the other. The garden of living information that surrounds those who open their hearts in love is so prolific, its fruits so abundant, that there is no need for individual, organizational, or cultural preservation."

Mark (Star Mariner)
24th August 2020, 19:29
I even looked up 'terrific' myself, in case Pratchett had that wrong. But he hadn't. We regard something that's 'terrific' as being extremely positive. But it originally meant 'causing terror'.


I've always been very interested in words and the meanings of words, especially how they change over time. Another good example, like terrific, is Awful. Derived from the word Awe, it seems much like the word Awesome, i.e. a thing that induces awe. It actually means something negative, the exact opposite of Awesome. But it wasn't Awful that changed over the years, rather it was Awesome that changed to mean something wonderful. The original meaning of Awe in Old English was fear, terror, or dread. Thus Awful is technically unchanged.

Another funny (ironic) example of changed meanings is the word silly. As far back as medieval times, 'silly' was reserved for men of the cloth, meaning 'holy' and 'pious'. But by 1500 that had changed to mean 'someone feeble of mind and lacking reason.' :lol:

If you like words and their curious and often double meanings here's a fun pic:

44129

EFO
15th April 2021, 17:48
Here are what I find of Romanian numbers, and will add Sanskrit and we can see how close these are to other Latin or Greek languages:
1 unu.............eka
2 doi...............dvi
3 trei...............tri
4 patru........chatur
5 cinci.........panca
6 șase...........shad
7 șapte........sapta
8 opt............asta
9 nouă..........nava
10 zece............das

Greek seems a little closer at five, penta, but not at six.

English then has two unique words, eleven and twelve, before it starts saying thirteen or three-ten. Romanian and Sanskrit both appear to go one-ten, two-ten, etc., like Greek, whereas French has several unique words and then does it backwards at ten-seven. Although there is variance, Indian numbers are mostly intelligible to western languages, except for the Arabic zero.

Shaberon,only now I'm able to partially reply to your post.

In my attempt to find more Getian/Dacian words,beside those already used in modern Romanian like varza=cabbage,oaie=sheep or branza=cheese,I found out that proto Indo European language have many words which in time and by transformation/s became old Getian/Dacian language hence old Romanian and later the Romanian language that we're speaking now.Sanskrit also have somehow similar words with what today is Romanian.

Perhaps the Indo-German Etymological Dictionary (https://marciorenato.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/pokorny-julius-proto-indo-european-etymological-dictionary.pdf) (3441 pages of pdf file) will also help you in finding the roots of some words or on this web site:https://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/whnjs.htm

On the other hand,I;m waiting to receive three books:
1-Romanian Language born and historic fakes (854 pages) by Lucian G. Costi
https://image.isu.pub/161110075355-00a7f377db8f34330684d08e4fbc3653/jpg/page_1.jpg

2-Getian Books (360 pages) by Nicolo Zeno
https://cdn.dc5.ro/img-prod/1981477-0.jpeg

and
3-Arguments for rewriting European history (584 pages) by Carlo Troya
https://www.librariaeminescu.ro/upload/produse/Carlo-Troya__Argumente-pentru-rescrierea-istoriei-europene-Despre-istoria-si-arhitectura-geto-gotilor__606-699-012-7-785334293637.jpg

I'm fascinating and intrigued of how the languages are became from ancestral one/s.For example this old French song

Chevalier, Mult Estes Guariz - French Crusade Song
(6:50 min.)
Original lyrics...English translation is in the video
"Chevalier, mult estes guariz
quant Deu a vus fait sa clamur
des Turs e des Amoraviz
ki li unt fait tels deshenors,
cher a tort unt cez fieuz saisiz!
Bien en devums aveir dolur,
cher la fud Deu primes servi
e reconuu pur segnuur.

Ki ore irat od Loovis
ja mar d’Enfern n’avarat pouur,
char s’alme en iert en Pareďs
od les angles nostre Segnor.

Pris est Rohais, ben le savez,
dunt Chrestďens sunt esmaďz,
les mustiers ars e desertez,
Deus n’i est mais sacrifďez.
Chivalers, cher vus purpensez?
Vus, ki d’armes estes preisez,
a Celui voz cors presentez
ki pur vus fut en cruiz drecez!

Ki ore irat od Loovis
ja mar d’Enfern n’avarat pouur,
char s’alme en iert en Pareďs
od les angles nostre Segnor.

Pernez essample a Lodevis
ki plus ad que vus n’avez:
riches reis e poëstiz,
sur tuz altres est curunez.
Deguerpit ad e vair e gris,
chastels e viles e citez,
il est turnez a Icelui
ki pur nus fut en croiz penet.

Ki ore irat od Loovis
ja mar d’Enfern n’avarat pouur,
char s’alme en iert en Pareďs
od les angles nostre Segnor.

Deus livrat sun cors a Judeus
pur metre nus fors de prisun,
plaies li firent en cinc lieus
que mort suffrit e passďun.
Ore vus mande que Chaneleus
e la gent Sanguin, li felun,
mult li unt fait des vilains jeus.
Ore lur rendez lur guerredum!

Ki ore irat od Loovis
ja mar d’Enfern n’avarat pouur,
char s’alme en iert en Pareďs
od les angles nostre Segnor.

Le Filz Deus al Creatur
a Rohais estre ad mis un jorn.
La serunt salf li pecceür!
Ki bien ferrunt pur s’amur,
irunt en cel besoin servir
pur la vengance Deu furnir.

Ki ore irat od Loovis
ja mar d’Enfern n’avarat pouur,
char s’alme en iert en Pareďs
od les angles nostre Segnor.

Alum conquere Moďses
ki gist el munt de Sinaď!
A Saragins ne·l laisum mais,
ne la verge dunt il partid
la Roge Mer tut ad un fais,
quant le grant Pople le seguit,
e Pharaon revint aprof"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxCiIXRaWY

or this one

Hymn of the Cathars "Lo boičr" (Le bouvier - The cattle herder)
(5:23 min.)
"The text of this Cathar hymn contains an encoded message, Joana being the medieval cathar church, which has been weakened and finally eliminated in Southern France (Occitanie) through the horrible Albigensian crusade. The spiritual essence of the cathars is still vibrating in caves and waters.
Texte occitan:
1. Can lou bouyč ben de laoura, Planto soun agulhado, A.E.I.O.U. Planto soun agulhado.
2. Troubo sa femno al pč del foc, Touto déscounsoulado.
3. "Se 'n es malaouto digas oc, Te faren un poutadzé.
4. Amb uno rabo un caoulét, Uno laouzéto magro."
5. "Quan séraď morto rébound mé, Al pus pirou de la cabo.
6. Méttras mous pčs ŕ la parét, Lou cap jous la cančlo.
7. E lous roumious que passaran, Prendran d'aďgo ségnado."
8. E diran: "Cal es mort aďci, Es la paouro Joana.
9. Que 'n es anado al paradis, Al cčl ambé sas cabros."

Traduction française: Quand le bouvier vient de labourer, plante son aiguillon, trouve sa femme au pied du feu, toute déconfite. "Si tu es malade dis-oui! Nous te ferons un potage avec une rave, un chou, une alouette maigre." "Quand je serai morte, enterre-moi au plus profond de la cave. Tu mettras mes pieds contre la muraille et la tęte sous la cannelle. Et les pčlerins qui passeront prendront de l'eau bénite et diront: 'Qui est mort ici? C'est la pauvre Joana, qui s'est en allée en paradis, au ciel, avec ses chčvres.' "

Engl. translation: When the herdsman comes back from work, plants his fork, finds his wife at the foot of fire, all discomfited. "If you're ill say yes! We will make a soup with kohlrabi, a cabbage, a lark thin." "When I die, bury me deep in the cellar. Put my feet against the wall, the head in the tap. And the pilgrims will take the holy water and say, 'Who died here? It is the poor Joana, who went to paradise, to heaven with his goats. '"
Deutsche Übersetzung:
1. Wenn der Ochsenhirt vom Pflügen kommt, seinen Treibstab abstellt, A.E.I.O.U. seinen Treibstab abstellt.
2. Findet seine Frau am Herd ganz zermürbt.
3. "Wenn du krank bist, sag es, wir machen dir eine Suppe.
4. Mit einer Rübe, einem Kohl, einer mageren Lerche."
5. "Wenn ich tot bin, begrabe mich im Keller an tiefster Stelle.
6. Setze meine Füße gegen die Mauern und mein Haupt unter den Faßhahn
7. Und die Pilger die vorbei kommen nehmen geweihtes Wasser.
8. Und werden sagen: 'Wer ist hier gestorben? Es ist die arme Joana!
9. Die fortgegangen ist ins Paradies, in den Himmel, mit ihren Schafen.' " "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlGO9IRJeqg

From both songs I understand and I'm familiar with some words which are closely related with Romanian words for example in the second song Occitan words foc,cap and mort we have them as they are in current talking meaning fire,head and (here) dead.Also the word "paret" we have in form of "perete"=wall or used in country side in form of "părete" (ă as in English "a ..." whatever word).

On the other hand translation of paouro Joana translated in French as pauvre Joana and in English poor Joana,I would translate it as powerful Joana,because in South-Western Romania rich peasants were named "paori for plural or paore for singular" -accent on "p" which give a different sense to the message.

EFO
16th April 2021, 08:11
Mihai Vinereanu former professor City University of New York
https://forza.ro/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Vinereanu2.jpg

"INTRODUCTION TO THE ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE ROMANIAN LANGUAGE
The origin of the Romanian language, and its structure as well, have been poorly understood from the very beginning. There are many reasons for this: (1) The Thraco-Dacian language is almost unknown directly, although Romanian inherited almost two-thirds of its lexicon from Thraco-Dacian. (2) A number of Thraco-Dacian inscriptions and glosses have been uncovered, but they are either too short or they have been given different interpretations over the years. (3) The Romanian language is considered a Romance language, but over 86% of its lexicon cannot be explained through Latin.

The first author of a Romanian etymological dictionary, Alexandru Cihac considers that the Romanian lexicon is composed of the following elements: 20% are of Latin origin, 40% are Slavic, another 20% are Turkish, and the remaining 20% are of other origins. The dictionary was written in French and published in two volumes between 1870-1879. Meanwhile, several other incomplete etymological dictionaries of Romanian were published, but they ignored the so-called non-Latin elements, which represent the bulk of the lexicon. Another etymological dictionary from A to Z was written in Spanish and published in Madrid, in 1958, by Alexandru Cioranescu. Although Cioranescu published his dictionary almost a century after Cihac’s, he transfered almost entirely the non-Latin etymologies given by Cihac. In other words, we do not see any real progress in 140 years. Therefore, the origin of a large number of Romanian words remains either unknown or uncertain, since the comparison was done mostly with Latin or Slavic and, even in these cases, many etymologies are wrongly attributed. For exemple, Cihac based his ‘Slavic’ etymologies on the work of the Slovene linguist Fr. Miklosich (Die Slawischen Elemente in Rumänischen, 1862). Miklosich’s etymologies are extemely flawed, but his mistakes are due to insufficient data. Recently, a couple of complete dictionaries of Old Church Slavonic were published (Blagova et al, 1994, and Djačenenko, 1998), where more than half of the Slavic ’etymons’ of Romanian words found in Cihac’s dictionary and other etymological dictionaries of Romanian are non-existant, to give one simple example. Thus, due to this situation, I realized that the true structure and origin of Romanian language were misunderstood. The Romanian version of my dictionary has about 6600 entries including about 1200 modern loanwords, most of them from French or Latin, found in most modern languages as well, including English, but they will be left out in the English version.

In elaborating my etymological dictionary, in order to solve the multitude of uncertain and unknown etymologies, I used a new method, namely, comparison with Indo-European languages other than Latin, Romance, or the Slavic languages. As a result, the statistics of my dictionary look quite different. Out 5400 entries about 14% of the lexical items are of Latin origin or have close cognates in Latin, 8% of Slavic origin, 3.5% of Turkish origin, 3% Greek, 1% Hungarian, and 1% German. Unlike all other etymological dictionaries, I have found about 15-20 Gothic loanwords borrowed into Dacian (or Proto-Romanian) in the first half of the the first millenium AD. A percentage of 6% (around 280 words) are of imitative nature and about 300 words (6.5%) still remain of uncertain origin. The rest of about 58% are of Thraco-Dacian origin, plus the 6% of imitative origin, will be a total of 64%. The dictionary demonstrates that these lexical items are to be derived from Proto-Indo-European roots through Thraco-Dacian. This breakdown sheds a new light on the structure of the Romanian lexicon, and, at the same time, it solves the etymology of thousands of words which, for a long time, remained of unknown or uncertain origin.

One may imagine three different hypotheses regarding the origin of Romanian language:

Latin origin, with 14% of its lexical elements of Latin origin and 86% of loanwords
Latin origin, with many Thraco-Dacian words, some lexicval items of Slavic or other origin.
Thraco-Dacian origin affected by a beginning of Romanization which was abruptly interrupted and some other later influences.
The first hypothesis is the traditional one and has been the official doctrine in Romanian culture for over 200 years. However, this hypothesis fails to explain how the so-called ‘Vulgar Latin’ spoken in the Roman Province of Dacia, lost most of its lexicon, to be replaced with words of other origins, most of them Thraco-Dacian, the original language of the region. In this case, the Romanian language would have borrowed many syntactic and morphological aspects as well, and it would have involved a creolization of the language in which most of its morphology was lost. On the contrary, Romanian language has a rich morphology in the declesion of noun, and especially in verb conjugation which would have disapeared almost entirely in case of creolization.

The second hypothesis derives from the first one, but it more closely follows the structure of the Romanian lexicon. According to this theory, the Latin origin of the Romanian language cannot be denied, since a part of its core lexicon seems to be of Latin origin. However, most of this core lexicon have many cognates in other Indo-European languages and can be explained easily through Thraco-Dacian as well. In fact, Romanian shares only about 700 of lexical items with Latin and other Romance languages. Out of this number, only around 200 words are really of Latin origin, the other cca 500 are those which have cognates in many Indo-European languages, including Latin.

The third hypothesis considers that the Romanian language is of Thraco-Dacian origin which, over a period of 2000 years was influenced by Latin, Slavic, or other languages. In this context, I have to mention that Thraco-Illyrian dialects were closely related to the Italic languages (dialects), since most Italic tribes migrated from either the Balkan Peninsula, the Middle Danube Valley (today’s Hungary or Pannonia as it was called in ancient times), or from Upper Danube Valley (today’s southern Germany). In other words, many of so-called ‘Latin’ words are not, in fact, of Latin origin, but they belong to a common Thraco-Illyro-Italic heritage. The hypothesis of the Thraco-Dacian origin of the Romanian language was proposed by the Romanian historian Nicolae Densuşianu over 100 years ago and before him by Felix Colson, a French diplomat and writer who wrote a number of books on the history of the Romanian people and its language in the middle of 19th century. In fact, this hypothesis should be refined, saying that there was a beginning of Romanization which was abruptly interrupted in 271 AD, after Roman authorities withdrew all officials, Roman military, and citizens from the province of Dacia, abandoning it entirely, even destroying the bridge over the Danube River to stop further invasions of the barbarians into the provinces situated south of the Danube River.

In a previous book (Vinereanu, 2002), I had shown that the situation in Dacia differed considerably from other Roman provinces. Romans remained in Dacia about 160 years, occupying only a fifth of the Dacian kingdom. On the other hand, it is very interesting that the territory of the the Dacian kingdom coincides roughly with the territory of today’s Romania and Republic of Moldova. In other words, most of Dacians lived outside of the Roman province of Dacia, which was the last European province added to the empire and the first to be abandoned. Furthermore, the military and political situation in Dacia was always unstable, during the 160 years of Roman control. Therefore, Romanization could really not take place in such conditions. There are a few details regarding the political situation in Dacia after the Roman conquest which should be mentioned for a better understanding of the social and political background. In 107 AD, only about 1/5 of the Dacian kingdom was transformed into a Roman province, namely, the territory where there were located the salt and gold mines of the Dacian kingdom, more specifically, the south-western regions (today’s Oltenia and Banat) and the south-western part of today’s Transylvania. In northern Oltenia and southern Transylvania, there were huge salt deposits, while in western Transylvania, there were the largest deposits of gold ore in Europe. Even today, there are still considerable deposits of salt and gold in these regions.

After the death of Trajan, the conqueror of Dacia, in 117 AD, after only 10 years of Roman rule, his successor Hadrian faced a double invasion in Dacia by barbarian tribes, and he was about to abandone the province of Dacia, but he was advised not to do so. Although he could not control the situation and abandoned three other provinces: Armenia, Mesopotamia, and Assyria. To protect the Roman province of Dacia, he built the limes alutanus, hundreds of miles of fortifications along Alutus river (today’s Olt river). He did the same thing in Brittania to stop the invasions of the Picts. During the reign of emperor Antoninus (138-161 AD), a rebellion of the Dacians from inside the province took place, coupled with an invasion of Dacians found outside the border of the Roman province. About 20 years later, during the reign of emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180 AD), several revolts took place: revolts of Dacians inside the province, coupled with invasions of those outside the province. In about the same period, the Goths started to attack repeatedly, not only the provinces found north of the Danube river, but also those situated south of this river. After 230 AD, tribes of Goths and Dacians together or separatedly attacked the Dacian province more and more often. During the reign of emperor Galienus (260-268 AD), the Romans could no longer control the situation, loosing control of the province as most ancient historians maintain (cf. Iordanes (18); Ammianus Marcelinus (31. 5-13); Zosimus (1, 13); Aurelius Victor (29)), and the official withdrawal took place several years later in 271 AD. In other words, real language contact could not have taken place only 20-30 years after the conquest of Dacia and after a number of colonists may have settled in the province, but the situation was still very unstable until 160-180 AD, due to numerous invasion and internal revolts. There was relative stability with less invasions and revolts, only between 180 to 230 AD, about 50 years. In other words, just two generations. I should say that the colonists settled only in the cities not in the contryside, let alone in the mountainous regions of Dacia. After 271 AD, the province was abandoned, and the urban life was completely destroyed due to the invasions of Goths and other barbarian tribes.

Although some theories place the so called formation of Romanian language somewhere south of Danube river, there is a lot of archaeological evidence regarding the presence of Dacians north of the Danube River between the 2nd and 12th centuries. Starting in the 50’s and 60’s of the 20th century, many archaeological artifacts were uncovered, indicating the presence of Dacians in this region. The two cemeteries of Bratei, Sibiu county (Southern Transylvania), are Dacian cemeteries (cf. L. Bârzu, 1973). To this one may add the names of all major river-names from Romania which were preserved form the ancient times to present day. These river-names would have been lost if the entire population would have abanoned these territories as these senseless theories maintain. Cemetery #1 is from 4th-5th centuries, the period right after the Roman withdrawal from Dacia. At this time, the population practiced cremation only, unlike the Romans, who practiced both cremation and inhumation. Cemetery #2 of Bratei (6th-7th centuries) represents an early period of Dridu culture, which could be found on a large territory that includes today’s Romania, Republic of Moldova, Bulgaria, and most of Ukraine. During this time, inhumation rituals appeared, but cremation is still predominant even during 11th and 12th centuries. These are just some of the most important details regarding the situation in Dacia during and after Roman occupation, which gives a picture of the conditions of the so-called ‘Romanization’ in Dacia and explains why the Romanian language has a rather small percentage of Latin words, while about 2/3 of its lexicon is of Thraco-Dacian origin.

Linguists consider that Thraco-Dacian was a satem language, but in fact, it was closely related to the Celtic and Italic languages. The Thraco-Dacian language shares some phonological features with Osco-Umbrian and Continental Celtic. The phonogical features of Romanian words of Thraco-Dacian origin show clear centum evolution. In other words, Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian were centum languages as I will show later. Looking at linguistic and historical data, we may assume that, towards the end of second millenium BC, all these languages emerged as separate dialects. At the beginning of the Iron Age, the Thraco-Dacians, Illyrians, and Celts occupied most of Europe, from Meotic Lake (today’s Azov Sea) to the Pyrenees Mountains. In other words, originally, the Celts emerged as an individual group west of the Thraco-Illyrians. O. Schrader (1890) shows that Pytheas the Massiliotte, a Greek navigator who traveled into the North Sea, mentioned the Celts who were situated west of the Rhine River, while Scythians were situated to the east of it. By Scythians, he meant Dacians. The French historian Arbois de Jubainville (1889-1894), citing the Roman writer Eusebius Pamphilius, shows that Osco-Umbrians migrated from the Upper Danube River into the Italian Penninsula, around 1200-1300 BC. We may assume that at that time the Thraco-Dacian, Illyrian, Italic, and Celtic tribes were speaking similar dialects, judging by some historical and linguistic data. About the same time, the Dorians (a Thraco-Illyrian tribe) migrated into Greece. They became Greek speakers, but kept some phonological features of their original language. The Dorian dialect and other Western and Northern Greek dialects have labialized the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars (as did Thraco-Illyrian, Osco-Umbrian, and Continental Celtic), unlike the Ionian dialect which did not. Thus, PIE *kwetwor ‘four’ > Dorian Greek péttares, Lesbian péttures, as well as Homeric Greek písures, are forms influenced by Thraco-Illyrian, but Ionian Greek téttares. Furthermore, the Roman writer Marcus Antonius, a Celt from Gaul, says that Gaulish and Osco-Umbrian have a common origin (cf. A. de Jubainville, 1894), in other words, Oscans and Umbrians were offshoots of the Celts. He lived in 1st century BC, and he was a native speaker of Gaulish, being able to see similarities between Gaulish and Osco-Umbrian which share some common features that make them different from Latin. Regarding the Latino-Faliscans, archaeological evidence shows that they migrated from the Middle Danube Valley, as the bearers of the Villanovan culture of Italy. Velleius Paterculus (11.100), an officer in the Roman army during the Roman-Pannonian war at the beginning of 1st century AD and Roman historian, tells us that “omnibus autem Pannonis non disciplinae tantum modo, sed linguae quoqoue notitia Romanae” (“all Pannonians have not only Roman (military) discipline, but they have also knowledge of Roman language”). The explanation of this apparently bizarre statement can be simply explained by the fact that the Romans’ ancestors migrated from this region about 1,500 years before.

Returning to the previous discussion regarding the linguistic and historical context towards the end of the 2nd millennium BC, in what follows, I will discuss the relations between Thraco-Dacian and neighboring languages. It is well known that Proto-Indo-European had a series of aspirated stops: voiced aspirated *bh, *dh, *gh, and most probably voiceless aspirated *kh (see infra). In Thraco-Dacian and in other neighboring languages such as Celtic, Baltic, and Slavic, these aspirated consonants collapsed with their non-aspirated counterparts. Furthermore, in Continental Celtic as well as in Osco-Umbrian, the Proto-Indo-European all labiovelars *kw, *gw turned into p and b, respectively. In Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian, the labiovelars turned also into bilabials except for the cases when these sounds were followed by a front vowel such as e or i.

Thraco-Dacian as a centum language. Thraco-Dacian has been considered a satem language, but the Romanian words of Thraco-Dacian origin have centum features. This wrong interpretation can be explained by the fact that some of these words or even some Thraco-Dacian glosses have a sibilant (s, ś) where in Proto-Indo-European is a plain or palatal velar, but this is a later development which affected all velars when followed by a front vowel as I will show below. It is well-known that the Indo-Europeanists divide the Indo-European languages by the way they were treating the Proto-Indo-European voiceless palatal velar *k’, precisely by the way this sound evolved in the two groups of languages. In the centum group this sound was de-palatalized becoming a plain voiceless velar (k), while in the satem it turned into a sibilant (s, ś).

In order to demonstrate this, one should show that the Proto-Indo-European voiceless palatal velar *k’ turned into a plain voiceless velar (k) in Thraco-Dacian

The Indo-Europeanists reconstructed three types of Indo-European velar stops.

Simple velars: *k, *g, *gʰ

Palatal velars: *k’, *g’, *g’ʰ

Labiovelars: kʷ, *gʷ, *gʷʰ

Different linguists may have reconstructed different versions, but for what I need to demonstrate, these differences do not matter.

Therefore, what is important is the fact that the voiceless palatal velar collapsed with its plain counterpart. In other words, this detail includes Thraco-Dacian into the centum group. Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula) (see ultra).

In the eastern vicinity of this group there was the Thraco-Illyrian group which did the same thing, but only to the labiovelars followed by back vowels (*a, *o), while the labiovelars followed by a front vowel (e, i) were palatalized along with regular velar sounds. One may conclude that in Thraco-Illyrian the phenomenon of palatalization before a front vowel took place in about the same time as the one of the bi-labialization of the labiovelars. I should emphasize that bi-labialization of labiovelars did not reach the peripheral dialects such as Insular Celtic, Latino-Faliscan and Epirote dialect (from which Proto-Albanian evolved) (see ultra). I should also mention that the palatalization of velars followed by a front vowel affects all velars (and dentals) and it has nothing to do with the distinction centum/satem.



The PIE velar *k’ turned in Thraco-Dacian into its non-palatal counterpart (and inherited as such in Romanian).

Thus, the noun cârd ‘herd, flock’ is derived from PIE *k’erdho, *k’erdha-. Therefore, in this Romanian noun (*k’) was de-labialized turning into a simple velar as in any centum language.

Cognates in the centum group: Greek κόρθυς ‘heap’, Old Irish crod ‘wealth, cattle’, Welsh cordd ‘group, crowd’, Gothic hairda ‘herd, flock’, Old Scandinavian hjord ‘id’, OHG heord ‘id’, as well as Lithuanian kerdžius ‘shepherd’ from a *kerda ‘herd’.

Cognates in the satem group: Sanskrit śardha ‘herd’, Avestan sarəda ‘tribe, kind’, OCS čreda ‘herd, flock’.

On the other hand, there are in Romanian two more nouns which are derived from the same root: ciurdă and cireadă with close meanings, each of them used in different dialects of Romanian. Older etymological dictionaries consider these last two forms to be of Slavic origin, namely from OCS čreda, but ciurdă does not show the metathesis of the liquid (r) as in Old Church Slavonic. In other words, it is derived rather from a Thraco-Dacian *kerda > *cirda, while cireadă may be or may not be influenced by the Old Church Slavonic form. Thus, cârd is derived from a little different form *kerd > *kǝrd, where the PIE *e turned into a schwa which stopped the further palatalization of the velar k.

Another example is the noun coasă found in some Slavic languages as well, but this lexical item has a centum evolution, not a satem one; cf. Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Russian kosá, Serbian kosa, as well as Albanian kosë and MoGreek κόσσα.

The form is derived from PIE *k’es– ‘to cut’ (IEW, 586).

Cognates in the satem group: Sanskrit sasti, sasasti ‘to cut, to kill’, çastram ‘knife’.

Cognates in the centum group: Greek κεάζω ‘to cut, to split open’, Latin castro, castrare ‘to cut, to castrate’, Middle Irish cess ‘sword’, Old Norse he, as well as Lithuanian kasů, kŕsit ‘to dig’ and Albanian korre ‘harvest’, korr ‘to harvest’. One may see that Lithuanian and Albanian forms exhibit a centum evolution as well. Pokorny is asking why PIE *k’ did not turn into a sibilant in the Slavic languages: “k statt s durch Dissimilation gegen das folgende s?” (k instead of s, by dissimilation from the following s?), but he leaves the question unanswered. On the other hand, Albanian and the Baltic languages need more investigation to establish their centum or satem status.

There are, in Romanian, a couple of more words which are derived from these Proto-Indo-European root as coasă where PIE *k’ turned into its simple counterpart k: namely cosor ‘hook, pruning knife’ and custură ‘the blade of a knife or other cutting instrument, knife’.

They are derived from the nominal form *kestrom ‘knife, cutting instrument’ (IEW, 586) of the same verbal form. While cosor has correspondents in the Slavic languages, custură does not. A number of Slavicists have shown that the Slavic languages have a series of words of centum type along with words of the satem type deriving from the same Proto-Indo-European root (see ultra).

From the same PIE root *k’es– ‘to cut’ is derived the Romanian verb cresta ‘to notch, to make an incision on’ which has a cognate in the Latin castro ‘to castrate, to thin out (plants)’.

This verb is derived from the nominal form *k’estrom where the liquid r underwent metathesis over the consonantal group st.

The noun colibă ‘hut’ is derived from PIE *k’el– ‘to hide, to cover’ with the nominal forms *k’oliā, *k’eliā-, *k’ēlā (fem.), *k’elos– (neut.) (IEW, 553). This noun seems to be derived from the nominal form k’oliā. The form is attested at Pausanias, in northern Greece (4th century, AD) as Καλύβη a form similar to present Romanian Colibe. The form is not Greek, since Greek has the form καλιά ‘hut, nest’ (see colibă). From the same root is derived the noun cuib (Aromnaian cul’bu, Megleno-Romanian, Istro-Romanian cul’b) ‘nest’, namely from the nominal form k’elos. One may notice that both these Romanian nouns have the bi-labial b added to the Proto-Indo-European root, meaning that they have a similar origin.

Finally, the noun crai (crăiasă) ‘king (queen)’ is derived from PIE *k’rei– ‘to be in front, to excel’ (IEW, 618) or PIE *k’reiH– ‘splendor’ ((EDG, Beekes, 1, 774), with cognates in Sanskrit, Avestan and Greek: Sanskrit śri, Avestan sri ‘sovereignty, wealth, splendor’, Greek κρείων ‘king, prince’, found in Homer, a few times referring to Agamemnon, as well as κρείουσα ‘queen’, also, in Homer, referring to one of Priam’s wives (Iliad, 22, 48: cf. Lidell). Beekes shows that the term is inherited from Indo-European poetic language. As we have seen the term in seldom used by Homer and it refers only to some individuals.

There is not any secret to the native speakers of Romanian that the form crai and crăiasă, belong to the poetic language of the Romanian fairy tales and folklore in general. Also the greatest Romanian poet, Mihai Eminescu used them with great success.

The list may continue, but I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Thraco-Dacian was a centum language.

As I mentioned above, later on, in Thraco-Dacian language all the velars turned into affricates or sibilants when were followed by a front vowel.

According to Reichenkron, Romanian țep is derived from PIE *k’oipo-, *k’eipo– ‘stake, sharp wooden or stone object’, with a multitude of derivatives: țepuș, teapă, țepușă, a înțepa, înțepătură, Țepeș. Albanian thep is a cognate. Romanian linguists Poghirc and Brâncuș consider it to be a substrate element, but they did not identify the Proto-Indo-European root mentioned above.

In what follows, I will discuss some words where the Proto-Indo-European simple velars remain unchanged when followed by a back vowel or turn into an affricate when followed by a front vowel.

The noun cârlig ‘hook’ is derived from PIE *(s)ker– ‘to bend’ (IEW, 935), kept the original Proto-Indo-European vowel, since the vowel *e turned into a schwa and later into the central mid-vowel â, cârd, while ceaţă ‘fog’ is derived form an older *ketia, itself form PIE *ked– ‘to smoke, to steam’ (IEW, 537). In this case, the Proto-Indo-European *k was palatalized, since the front vowel *e remained unchanged. In other words, the transformation of the velars into affricates or sibilants is a later Thraco-Dacian phenomenon.



The Relationship between the Thraco-Illyrian, Italic, and Celtic Language. Indo-Europeanists divide the Celtic and Italic languages into two major groups: the Q-dialects and P-dialects. The Q-Celtic dialects were those which were separated earlier from the main group such as Proto-Irish and Proto-Celtiberian, according to the treatment of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars in these languages. The P-dialects turned the labiovelars into bilabials, while Q-dialects turned the labiovelars into simple velars. Instead, east of the Pyrenees, the Celtic dialects have turned the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars into labials, like in Osco-Umbrian.

As I mentioned above, Thraco-Dacian (and Illyrian) treated the labiovelars differently, according to the phonological environment. Thus, those followed by front vowels (a, o, u) lost their velar feature, turning into a labial (p or b), while those followed by e or i turned first into simple velars, which later, perhaps in Late Thraco-Dacian (preserved as such in Romanian), turned into affricates or sibilants (see infra). This second phonological aspects brings Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian closer to the Balto-Slavic group. Regarding the treatment of labiovelars in the Italic languages, the situation is identical to the Celtic group, namely, Latin and Faliscan, which migrated earlier into the Italian Peninsula, kept the labiovelars, unlike Oscan and Umbrian, which have the same treatment of labiovelars as Continental Celtic. The relationship between Latin on one hand, and Osco-Umbrian on the other hand, was discussed by a number of linguists such as G. Devoto, R. S. Conway, M. S. Beeler, and others. Thus, Devoto states: “The separation of Latin from Osco-Umbrian is not an Italic fact, but an Indo-European dialectical one, since the Indo-Europeans came to Italy in two different waves” (cf. Tagliavini, Le Origine…, 2, p. 67), while Beeler comes closer to the historical and linguistic facts: “I don’t think that any of the innovations found in Latin and Osco-Umbrian is strong enough to be a irrefutable argument for an “Italic phase” conceived as a distinct linguistic community, separated in time and space since Indo-European. I would suggest Proto-Latin and Proto-Osco-Umbrian may have occupied neighboring areas in a still undivided Western Indo-European community” (Language, 28, p. 443).

In other words, the ancestors of the Osco-Umbrians migrated to the Italian Peninsula from the Upper Danube Valley around 1200-1300 BC, while those of the Latino-Faliscans came to Italy around 1500 BC, 200-300 years before. Latin and Faliscan kept the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars, unlike Osco-Umbrian.

The Relationship between Thraco-Dacian, Illyrian, and Albanian. As I mentioned already, Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian were dialects of the same language, although most linguists believe that they are different languages. On the other hand, Ancient and Medieval historians consider Illyrian as Thraco-Dacian (Strabo), while Suidas Lexicon (10th century AD) states that “Illyrians [are] Barbarian Thracians” (illírioi barbároi thrákoi). Today, there is a general confusion regarding the relationship between these languages. Some linguists believe that they are related languages, while others believe that they are different since Illyrian was a centum language, while Thraco-Dacian was a satem language. However, a comparison between Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian glosses indicates that they were dialects of the same language or very close related languages. Although Albanian has a series of common phonological and syntactic features with Romanian, there are some important differences as well. The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today. Thucydides shows that the Epirotes were Illyrians, and they were speaking two different dialects. Strabo (7, 7) also shows that they lived south of river Shkumb and Illyrians to the north. The Romans used to make a clear distinction between Illyrians proprie dicti (proper) and Illyrians in general. In their understanding, Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias. In modern Albanian, there is no labialization of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars as in Thraco-Dacian, Illyrian, Osco-Umbrian, and Continental Celtic. Thus, PIE *kwetwor ‘four’ > Albanian katër ‘id’ or PIE *wl̥kwos ‘wolf’ < Albanian ulk ‘id’ since it was peripheral as it was the case with the Q-dialects of the Italic and Celtic groups.

The Relationship between Thraco–Dacian and the Balto–Slavic Group. It is very important to know the real relationship between Thraco-Dacian and Proto-Slavic in order to understand properly the Slavic segment of the Romanian lexicon. Thraco-Dacian and Proto-Slavic were considered to be satem languages and, according to this theory, it was difficult to see the differences, although, as I mentioned above, Thraco-Dacian was a centum, not a satem language. In what follows, I will discuss some of the specific features of these languages. It is not an easy task to distinguish what it is original in these languages and what may be attributed to reciprocal borrowings and influences, since speakers of the two languages were in contact long before the arrival of Slavic tribes to the Danube and in the Balkan region. On the other hand, all kinds of assumptions were made already regarding the relationship of the two languages and, therefore, it is difficult to get people to break their preconceived ideas.

B. Bernstein (1964) shows that most Slavicists believe Common Slavic lasted for more than 2000 years, although he thinks that this period was much longer. During this long period of time, important changes took place, thus, the Common Slavic of the last stages of all period of time was a lot different than the one of the initial stages. He shows that the most important phenomenon was “the law of open syllable”, and it marks the beginning of other phonological transformations. The earliest borrowings from the Germanic languages are from the first centuries of the Christian era. He divides Common Slavic into two large periods:
Archaic period: up to the open syllable
Late period: after the open syllable.
The law of open syllable of Common Slavic led to the metathesis of liquids (l and r) from the end of the syllable over the vowel. This phenomenon is almost unknown in the original lexicon of Romanian and Albanian. Another feature of late Common Slavic is the elision of the nasals from the final position of the syllable, coloring the vowel in front of it, also unknown in Romanian and Albanian. In this language, the Proto-Indo-European velars and labiovelars had the same evolution. As I have shown above, Thraco-Dacian had a different treatment, not only between velars and labiovelars, but even inside the labiovelar group depending on the phonological environment. I may say that before (or during) the open syllable transformation in Common Slavic, the only important change in Thraco-Dacian was the labialization of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars (see supra), while in Common Slavic and Proto-Baltic, the labiovelars turned into regular velars, and later they were palatalized under some conditions. Furthermore, the Slavicists found out that in Slavic and Baltic languages there are borrowings from some Indo-European centum language. Thus, they concluded that the speakers of Common Slavic and Proto-Baltic were in contact with speakers of this unknown centum language in the first millennium BC.

Bernstein argues that before 4th-2nd centuries BC, the territory westward of the Vistula River was “occupied by tribes of Luzacian culture” and “the bearers of this culture were the Veneti tribes (p. 58)”, but he gives no indication of whom this people might have been or about the nature of their language. This culture spread up to the Baltic Sea, coming in contact with the Baltic tribes as well. According to the Polish archaeologist Moszynski (cf. Bernstein), the original homeland of the Slavs was on the Upper Dnieper River. They both agree that, later on, the Slavic tribes migrated south of the Pripet River, which was “the territory of Venete language”. According to Bernstein, the speakers of the Venete language spread from the Dnieper to the Vistula River and beyond to the west. In all these territories, the Slavic tribes found a ‘Venete’ population which they had assimilated (p. 60). Afterwards, the Slavs moved westward up to the Vistula River and the Oder River between the 3rd-2nd centuries BC and 3rd-4th centuries AD. When Germanic tribes met the Slavs, they called them Wenedi, but Slavs never called themselves Veneti or Wenedi (cf. Bernstein). The Slavicists never really identified the so-called Venete population or its language, but they all agree that they were speaking an Indo-European centum language, and they call it also ‘Illyro-Venete’. This language cannot be other than the one spoken by northern Dacian tribes which occupied large territories in Central and Eastern Europe, since the Illyrians (and Italic tribes of Veneti) never reach Vistula River or the Baltic shore. Furthermore, Herodotus (Histories) states that Traco-Dacians were the most numerous people in the entire in the world after the Indians.

In what follows, I will discuss a few centum elements in Slavic and Baltic languages which have correspondents in Romanian found in Golab (1972) such as OCS gleznŭ ‘ankle, knuckle’, Russian glezna ‘tibia’, Polish glozna, Slov. glezeny ‘ankle’, Lithuanian žlezan ‘ankle’ from PIE *gel-, *gleg– ‘to be or become round; something round’ (IEW, 357-58): cf. Romanian gleznă ‘ankle’. According to Walde-Pokorny the Slavic forms are derived from this Proto-Indo-European root. From PIE *ak’mo– ‘stone’ (IEW, 18), Baltic languages have pairs of centum/satem forms: Lithuanian akmus ‘stone’, ašmenys ‘edge’, Latvian asmenas ‘edge, precipice’, while Slavic languages have only the centum type forms: cf. OCS kamy, Russian kamai ‘stone’. Cognates in centum languages include: Greek ákmon ‘anvil’, the Phrygian place-name Akmonia, and perhaps Romanian ocnă ‘salt mine’. Satem cognates include: Sanskrit aśman ‘stone’, Avestan asman ‘stone’.

In several other cases, both Slavic and Baltic languages have centum/satem pairs. From PIE *g’herdh-, gherdh– ‘to enclose’, *ghordh–os ‘fence, enclosure’ (IEW, 444), we have the following forms:

satem type: Lithuanian žardas ‘a wooden construction’, Latvian zards ‘horse enclosure’, Old Prussian sards ‘id’, OCS žrŭdŭ ‘hen coop’, Russian žerd ‘id’.
centum type: Lithuanian gardas ‘enclosure for animals, fortress’, OCS gorditi ‘to enclosure, to build’, graditi ‘to build’, gradŭ ‘city’, Russian gorod ‘city’, Polish grad ‘city’, etc.
Furthermore, Golab shows that pre-Slavic place-names in Poland have centum forms, while other have the root *ap– ‘water, river’; cf. Romanian apă ‘water, river’. The root is quite frequent in place-names in the Balkan region, as well as in some Celtic regions. Thus, in Gaul, we have: Geld-apa, Arn-apa, Len-apa, Ol-epa, Man-apia, Appa (cf. Holder, Alt-celtischer…), Gaulish Apa-va almost identical to Pannonian Ape-va (cf. Holder, vol. 1), in Greece: Apia, In-ōpos (river names), Api-don, Api-danos (place-names). An-apos is a river-name attested in Greece (Thucydides, 2, 82) and in Sicily as well (Titus Livius, 24, 36, 2; Thucydides, 6, 96, 3: 7, 8, 3; Dyodorus of Sicily, 15, 13, 5), Ap-sus, river in Southern Pannonia (Krahe, ZONF, 20, 1931), Sald-apa, in Dacia and many others. Therefore, there is no doubt that all these place-names, mentioned by Golab, are of Thraco-Dacian origin. It is quite obvious that they come from northern Thraco-Dacians who brought a great contribution to the old Slavic civilization. Regarding other (perhaps more recent) Old Slavic loan-words from other Indo-European languages, Bernstein (p. 87) thinks that OCS sluga ‘servant’, braga ‘a kind of ale’, ljutŭ ‘sour, cruel’ are loanwords from Old Irish slog, sluag ‘crowd, army’, Irish braich ‘malt’, Welsh llid ‘malice’ (< Proto-Celtic *lūdu). For sluga, there is a cognate in Lithuanian slauga ‘helper, servant’. I should say that, in Old Church Slavonic and Romanian, the forms are absolutely identical: Romanian slugă ‘servant’, bragă ‘kind of ale, malt’ and iute ‘1. quick, energetic; 2. spicy’ from an older *liute. Bernstein continues saying that these words are etymologized well in the Celtic languages, but we may say the same thing about Romanian, where both slugă and iute have many derivatives. We have similar situations in the case of other loanwords in Old Church Slavonic: vino ‘wine’, which he thinks is of Gothic origin, while popŭ ‘priest’, pila ‘saw’ vitez’iu ‘brave’ considers them as loanwords from western Germanic dialects, but he does not specify which those Germanic dialects might be. Regarding popŭ ‘priest’, it has a correspondent in Latin popa ‘a priest in charge of sacrifices in old Roman religion’. There are also Latin loanwords into Old Church Slavonic. Most of them are Christian Church terms: oltarŭ ‘altar’, koleda ‘Christmas carol’, poganŭ ‘pagan’, as well as kanopl’a < Latin *canapis ‘hemp’ (Classical Latin cannabis, itself borrowed from Greek). All these loanwords have their correspondents in Romanian with the same meaning as in Slavic. There are reasons to believe that all these are loanwords from Old Romanian of 7-8 centuries into Old Church Slavonic after the Slavic tribes settled in the Balkan region during this period (see vin, popă, pilă, viteaz, as well as altar, colindă, păgân and cânepă), since there were not any Latin speakers in the Balkan area (or anywhere else) at that time.

Some of loanwords into Common Slavic are considered of Iranian origin, but many of

them are, in fact, borrowed from Thraco-Dacian (or Proto-Romanian): rajŭ ‘heaven’ toporŭ ‘ax’, mogyla ‘hillop’, vatra ‘hearth’, while bogŭ ‘god’ and kurŭ ‘rooster’ have no correspondents in Romanian and may be of Iranian origin. Bernstein never mentions the Romanian (or Albanian) correspondents, even when the relationship between Slavic and Romanian forms is more than obvious. Thus, he associates Old Slavic vatra ‘hearth’ with Avestan athaurvan ‘sacred fire’ and Sanskrit atharvan ‘priest of the fire cult’, but he ignores the fact that there are identical forms with the same meaning in Romanian and Albanian: cf. Romanian vatră ‘hearth, fire’ Albanian vatrë ‘id’. Regarding Old Slavic sъto ‘hundred’, Vasmer and other Slavicists believe that it is of Celtic origin, namely, from Old Irish, but Common Slavic speakers were never in any contact with any Irish people. Even phonologically speaking, Old Irish cét ‘hundred’ cannot be the etymon for Old Slavic sъto. It is a well-known fact that PIE *ŭ turned into ъ, ь in Common Slavic. In other words, Common Slavic borrowed the form *sŭta when it still had the short Proto-Indo-European vowel *ŭ. Therefore, Romanian sută ‘hundred’ cannot be a loanword from Old Church Slavonic sъto as all linguists believe. Instead, it seems that Slavic sъto was borrowed from Thraco-Dacian at an earlier time, sometime before the first millennium AD (see sută).





The Relationship between Thraco-Dacian and Romanian. It was necessary to show the position of Thraco-Dacian in relation to other Indo-European languages, since a series of linguistic, historical and archaeological details are unknown or little known by most researchers. Thus, I have shown that Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian were related to Italic (especially Oscan and Umbrian) and Celtic (especially Continental Celtic). To the east, they had to have been in contact with the Balto-Slavic group which has many loanwords from Thraco-Dacian. As I mentioned above, this language had some important phonological features in common with Italic and Celtic languages and, to a lesser extent, it shared some (other) features with the Balto-Slavic group.

To reconstruct the phonological features of the Thraco-Dacian language, the real ancestor of Romanian, I have compared the Romanian lexicon and Thraco-Dacian names and glosses with cognates from other Indo-European languages in connection with Proto-Indo-European roots as in Walde (LEW) and Walde-Pokorny (IEW) and other more recent works. Although the German linguists did not use Romanian for their reconstructed roots, Romanian words match them very well. In the beginning, I paid special attention to the Romanian lexical items considered already to be of Thraco-Dacian origin. Later on, those of uncertain or unknown origin were taken into consideration, in order to find common phonological features. In the ’60s of the last century, the German Romanist Günter Reichenkron in his Das Dakische (rekonstruiert aus dem Rumänishen), (1966) tried a new method in Romanian historical linguistics. He discussed 130 Romanian words of Thraco-Dacian origin, by comparison with other Indo-European languages, using the Walde-Pokorny dictionary as well. Unfortunately, this new method was rejected by Romanian linguists. However, several years later, the Romanian linguist I. I. Russu tried the same method, but it seems that he was insufficiently familiar with the field, and his unsuccessful attempt was perceived by other Romanian linguists as proof of “inadequacy” of the method itself. In fact, this is the only method in Romanian etymology, since there are thousands of words of uncertain or unknown origin or wrongly attributed origin by those using a simple comparison with Latin, Slavic, or with other neighboring languages.

The Phonological Features of the Thraco-Dacian Language. Partial reconstruction of the phonological features of Thraco-Dacian was done by G. Reichenkron, I. I. Russu, V. Georgiev, C. Poghirc, and Gr. Brâncuş, but all of them are far from being complete. Most of these authors used only Thraco-Dacian glosses and names and very few Romanian words. Unlike them, I have used a large number of Romanian words. On the other hand, the phonological configuration of Proto-Indo-European is well-known today. Therefore, to reconstruct Thraco-Dacian phonology, I have started from the Proto-Indo-European sounds and followed their evolution to the sounds of modern Romanian, along with Thraco-Dacian glosses, compared with other Indo-European languages. The discovery of phonological principles governing the evolution of the sounds from Proto-Indo-European to Thraco-Dacian and to Romanian was done in its entirety for the first time by the author along these lines.

Diphthongs: A general phonological characteristic of Thraco-Dacian was that Proto-Indo-European diphthongs turned into vowels. It seems that they usually turned into long vowels, as in Latin. However, in some monosyllabic words, some diphthongs were preserved. Proto-Indo-European had six diphthongs which are a combination of a non-high (*e, *o, *a) vowel with a high vowels (*i or *u) : *ei, *ai, *oi, *eu *au, *ou. The diphthongs *ei and *eu were much more frequent than the others.

In some Romanian short words, the diphthong *au was preserved. It seems that originally in Thraco-Dacian, these words were bi-syllabic with the stress on the first syllable which preserved the sequence. In Romanian, this sequence was preserved as well (with the two vowels separated in hiatus) in words with uncertain or controversial origin such as auş ‘old man, grandfather’ from PE *au̯eo-, *au̯o– ‘grandfather’ (Lehmann, A242), auşel ‘a little insectivore bird’ (Regulus regulus), from PIE *au̯ei– ‘bird’ (IEW, 86) as well as aur ‘gold’ considered to be of Latin origin from PIE *aus-os ‘to be bright, gold, dawn’ (IEW, 86): Sabin ausom ‘gold’, Irish or ‘id’, Welsh aur ‘id’, Albanian ar ‘id’, Old Prussian ausis ‘id’, Old Lithuanian ausas ‘id’, Armenian oski ‘id’, Tocharian A wäs ‘id’. The other two also have a considerable number of cognates in various Indo-European languages (see auş, auşel, aur). In other cases (longer words), PIE *au turned into /u/, perhaps a long */ū/ in Thraco-Dacian. The verb a (se) gudura ‘1. to fawn (upon); 2. to be happy (about dogs)’ was associated with Albanian gudulis ‘to tickle’ which is in fact cognate with Romanian a gâdila ‘to tickle’. Romanian a (se) gudura is cognate with Latin gaudeo, gaudere ‘to enjoy, to be happy’, but it cannot come from Latin *gaudulare, which is not attested anywhere or has no any correspondent in any of the Romance languages. Both come from PIE *gāu– ‘to enjoy, to be happy’ (IEW, 353): Greek gedéō ‘I enjoy, I am happy’, Dorian Greek gadéō ‘id’.

The other diphthongs have a similar evolution. The diphthong *ai: it was preserved in shorter words such as coică ‘forested hill’: cf. Albanian kojkë ‘id’, Old Welsh coit ‘forest’, Welsh coed ‘id’, Old Cornish cuit ‘id’, Breton coed ‘id’, all from PIE *kaito ‘forest, untilled land’ (IEW, 521). In this case, the vowel *a > o. In late Thraco-Dacian, there was a general tendency of a > o and o > u (cf. river names Mureş < Maris, Olt < Alutus, Dunăre ‘Danube’ < Donaris).

In other cases, PIE *ai > e (or i) in Thraco-Dacian and it was preserved as such in Romanian. The noun petec ‘patch, a piece of fabric’ derives from PIE *baita, *paita ‘goatskin’ (IEW, 93): cf. Albanian petk ‘patch, a piece of fabric’.

The diphthong *ou: It turned into a simple vowel: o or u as in Romanian cocoaşă ‘hump’, coacăză ‘cranberry’ (o > oa by umlaut), cocon ‘child, baby’, all from PIE *kouko-s ‘round’ < *keu– ‘to bend’ (IEW, 588): Albanian koqë ‘berry, any berry’.

The diphthong *ei: Romanian ţep ‘thorn, spike’, as well as ţeapă ‘1. stake, point of a stake; 2. splinter’ ţepos ‘thorny, spiky, prickly’, a înţepa ‘to prick, to sting; 2. to bite (about insects)’ are considered of Thraco-Dacian origin (Reichenkron, 166: Poghirc, ILR, 2, 352: Brâncuş, VALR, 124). Reichenkron shows that they come from PIE *k̂eipo-, *k̂oipo– ‘pale, stick, a sharp stone or wood’ (IEW, 542) where PIE *ei > e in Thraco-Illyrian: cf. Albanian thep ‘sharp stone’.

In most cases, after the lateral l, the vowel e (from PIE *ei) did not underwent iotacism and did not affect the liquid l. Romanian words considered to be either Thraco-Dacian, Latin or Slavic, show the same evolution of Proto-Indo-European diphthong *ei. Thus, Romanian a leşina ‘to faint (away), to swoon’, leş ‘corpse, carcass’, a lihni ‘to starve’, all have the same origin Thraco-Dacian origin, although etymologists gave them different etymologies (see a leşina, leş, a lihni). All originate from PIE *leik-, *leigh– ‘1. weak, miserable; 2. death’. In all these examples, PIE *ei > e in the Thraco-Dacian language and is preserved as such in Romanian. There is the same situation in the verb a legăna ‘to rock, to swing, to balance’ from PIE *leig-, *loig– ‘to jump, to tremble, to swing’ (IEW, 677) and many others. Other words considered to be of Latin origin, such a lega ‘to tie, to bind, to attach’ < Latin līgāre ‘to tie, to bind’ < PIE *leig– ‘to tie, to bind’ (IEW, 668). Finally, words considered to be of Slavic origin have the same evolution. Thus, the verb a lipi ‘to glue, to stick’ is considered to be of Slavic origin, although there is no appropriate Slavic etymon, but there are close cognate in the Baltic languages: Lithuanian limpu, lipti ‘to stick, to glue’, Latvian lipu, lipt ‘id’ from PIE *leip– ‘to grease, to glue’ (IEW, 670). In these cases, as one may see, the vowel i (< PIE *ei) did not undergo iotacism as in the other Romanian words deriving from Indo-European roots containing diphthong *ei, no matter what origin the previous etymological dictionaries gave to them. In other words they have the same phonological evolution. One may conclude that perhaps the iotacism did not take place because the long vowel (from a diphthong) remained as such for a longer time and did not undergo iotacism as in the case of regular vowel. However, there are some exceptions to this possible rule such as the noun lespede ‘slab’ from PIE *lep– ‘stone, rock’ (IEW, 678), where a regular PIE *e did not undergo iotacism and the lateral l was not affected. In other cases, PIE *ei turned into i, as in Romanian mic ‘small’ from PIE *mei–ko-s ‘small’ (IEW, 711). We encounter the same evolution, in words considered to be of Latin origin, as in Romanian a zice ‘to say, to tell’. In most cases, in Latin, the Proto-Indo-European vowel sequences turned into long vowels. Thus, Latin dīcō, dīcere ‘to show, to say’ < PIE *deik̂– ‘to show, to indicate’ (IEW, 188).

The diphthong *eu was the most frequent in Proto-Indo-European. In Romanian, it appears as o (or u), a transformation inherited from Thraco-Dacian. In some cases, in short words, it was preserved as a slightly different sequence, as in lăun (pronounced lă-un) ‘a plant that grows in stagnant water’ and lăunos ‘dirty’ from PIE *leu-, *lū– ‘dirt, to make dirty’ (IEW, 681): Greek λΰμα ‘1. dirt; 2. insult, outrage’, Albanian (Tosk dialect) lum ‘swamp, pond’, (Gheg dialect) ljum ‘id’, Lithuanian liūnas ‘swamp’.

Instead, in most cases (in longer words), PIE *eu turned into o (u). Thus, Romanian broască ‘frog’, (where o > oa by umlaut), originates from PIE nominal from *preu-sko of *preu– ‘to jump, to hop’ (IEW, 845-46) with cognates in Albanian, Italian (dialectal), and Germanic languages: Albanian breskë ‘frog’, Italian (dial.) brosca ‘id’, Old English frosc ‘frog’, Old Icelandic froskr ‘id’. In other cases, it turned into u, as in Romanian ciucă (variant cucă) ‘ridge, peak’ which was borrowed into all Balkan languages. It is frequently found in place names and personal names. It originates in PIE *keu-, *keuk– ‘to bend, to wind, curvature’ (IEW, 589) (see ciucă). The same rule applies to words considered to be of Latin origin, such as a luci ‘to shine, to gleam’ considered to be a derivative of Latin lucio, lucire ‘to shine, to gleam’ (see a luci).

Vowels: Although Proto-Indo-European had short and long vowels, the vowel quantity disappeared most probably in Late Thraco-Dacian, a phonological trait transmitted to Romanian. At a certain moment in history, the quantity stopped playing a role and, short and long vowels developed in the same way.

Proto-Indo-European short and long *a: The short Proto-Indo-European vowel *a, at initial or in stressed syllable, remained unchanged in Thraco-Dacian and Romanian. Romanian argea ‘subterranean room’ has been considered Thraco-Dacian since Hasdeu (Col. lui Traian, 232, 1873) from a Dacian *argilla and later in Etymologicum… is associated with Greek άργιλλα ‘subterranean house’, Old Macedonian árgella ‘id’ and Cimmerian argill ‘id’. This hypothesis was adopted also by Gr. Brâncuş (VALR, 30) and I .I. Russu (Elemente, 133). All these forms are derived from PIE *areg– ‘to enclose’ (IEW, 64) (see argea).

Instead, in unstressed position or at the end of the word (which is generally unstressed), PIE *a turned into ă (ə), as Hasdeu has shown more than 100 years ago. For Romanian măgură ‘hill’, he identified a PIE *mag– (Cuvente…, 288), similar to PIE *mak-, mək– (IEW, 699); cf. Greek maketa ‘hill’ > Makedones ‘the ones who live on hills and mountains’ (cf. IEW), Albanian magullë ‘id’, Neo-Greek mágoula ‘id’ (a loanword), as well as Sardinian moγoro and Italian (Campidan dialect) moγoro ‘hill’. Common Slavic borrowed it from Thraco-Dacian as *magula ‘mount, hill’ > Slavic mogyla ‘id’ (see supra). Romanian noun vatră ‘hearth’ (Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian vatră ‘id’) < PIE *(u̯)āt(e)r- ‘fire, hearth’ (IEW, 69): Albanian vatrë ‘hearth’, where (long) vowel *a was preserved in a stressed syllable, also. Romanian vatră was borrowed into Slavic (see supra).

The Proto-Indo-European short and long vowel *e may have a different evolution depending on the phonological environment. Sometimes, in stressed position PIE *e > je in Thraco-Dacian. The iota palatalized the consonant in front of it, such as t, d, k, g. The phenomenon can be seen in Thraco-Dacian names. In these names, there is an alternation in spelling between a stop and a sibilant: Sabadios/Sabazios, Dierna/Tsierna, Germizara/Zermizara. This evolution of Proto-Indo-European stops was transmitted to Romanian, not only in words of Thraco-Dacian origin, but also in those considered to be of Latin origin. Thus, Romanian miere ‘honey’ is considered to derive from Latin mel ‘honey’, from PIE *mel–it (IEW, 723): Hittite milit ‘honey’, Greek melě ‘id’, Gothic meilith ‘id’, Armenian melr ‘id’, Old Irish mil ‘id.’, Welsh, Cornish, Breton mel ‘id’. In fact, Albanian mjal, mjaltë ‘honey’ the vowel e underwent iotacism as in Romanian. As we saw, this phonological change, along with other such changes, took place long time ago as in the god-name Sabazios or place-names such as Tsierna or Zermizara.

According to Al. Cihac (2, 47) and Gustav Weigand (BA, 2, 108), Romanian ceaţă ‘fog’ is of Slavic origin: cf. OCS kaditi ‘to smoke’, Russian/Ukrainian čad ‘smoke, steam’, but most Romanian linguists believe that it is derived from Latin *caecia < caecus ‘blind’, a hypothesis that should be rejected. Indeed, Romanian ceaţă is a cognate of the Slavic forms, but it is not of Slavic origin, since we do not have a Slavic form from which it may have derived. In fact, all these forms are derived from PIE *ked– ‘to smoke, to make smoke’ (IEW, 103). In other words, ceaţă is derived from an older *ketia, where the e which underwent iotacism turned *k into a č.

The Proto-Indo-European short and long vowel *u remained unchanged. The noun buză ‘lip, edge’ < PIE *bŭ–s ‘lip, to kiss’ (IEW, 103): Albanian buzë ‘lip’, Old Irish bus, pus ‘lip’, busóc, pusóc ‘kiss’. The root is attested in Thraco-Dacian personal names such as Byzas, Bysos, Beuzos, as well as Illyrian Buzos, Buzetius. We have the same evolution in the noun vătui ‘one year-old goat’ from an older *vituliu, considered to be of Thraco-Dacian origin, because that it has cognates in Albanian ftuj, vëtulë ‘id’. From the same Proto-Indo-European root are derived viţel ‘calf’, vită ‘cow or other domestic animal’; viţel is considered to be of Latin origin because it has a correspondent in Latin vitulus, while vită has no cognate in either of these languages. All these words derive from PIE *u̯et– ‘year’, *u̯etelo ‘one year-old animal’ (IEW, 1175).

Proto-Indo-European short and long vowel *o: In stressed position, *o remained unchanged, as in the noun boare ‘breath of wind, breeze; 2. aroma’ (Aromanian boră, Megleno-Romanian boari) from PIE *bholo– ‘steam, fog’ (IEW, 162), where o > oa, by umlaut. From the same root is derived the noun abur ‘steam’, where Proto-Indo-European *o turned into u in unstressed position. In some cases, it may turn into an a. For a long time, Romanian gard (Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian gard) ‘fence’ was considered to be of Slavic origin, namely from OCS gradŭ ‘city’. Later on, Poghirc (ILR, 2, 341), I. I. Russu (Thraco-Dac…, 109; Elemente…, 159) considered it to be of Thraco-Dacian origin. Furthermore, Brâncuş (VALR, 76-77) shows that Albanian sound dh of gardh ‘fence’ does not reflect the features of a Slavic loanword. At the same time, Romanian and Albanian forms do not exhibit the metathesis of the lateral sound (r) as in the Slavic, but it remained in the same position as in Proto-Indo-European. It is quite obvious that OCS gradŭ is a loanword from one of the Thraco-Dacian dialects (see supra). All these forms originate from PIE *ghordho–s ‘fence’ (IEW, 444). This root is wide-spread in Indo-European languages (see gard). The same phonological change can be found in Romanian mal ‘bank, shore’. It was considered Thraco-Dacian because it is found in Ancient glosses: Malua, Dacia Maluensis, alternating with Dacia Ripensis, from Latin ripa ‘bank’, which makes clear the meaning of Maluensis. The Romanian noun mal originates from PIE *molā ‘shore’ (IEW, 721): Albanian mal ‘hill, mountain’, Latvian mala ‘bank, shore’, Gaullish –melos (in place names). Cognates are found in other Nostratic language families as well, such as Dravidian languages: cf. Tamil malai ‘hill, mountain’, Malayalam mala ‘mountain, hill-land’, Kannaḍa male ‘mountain, forrest’ (Bomhard & Kerns, 550, 1994).

Proto-Indo-European short and long vowel *i had a development similar to Proto-Indo-European *e, namely, it underwent iotacism affecting the consonant in front of it. The noun in ‘flax’ is considered to be of Latin origin from linum ‘flax’, but the term is found in most Indo-European languages and most probably in Thraco-Dacian as well: Greek λίνον ‘flax’, Albanian (Tosk liri, Gheg lini), Old Irish lin ‘id’, Welsh llin ‘id’, Breton lien, Gothic lein, OHG lin, Lithuanian linai (pl.), Latvian lini (pl.), Old Prussian linno, all from PIE *līno ‘flax’ (IEW, 691).

Consonants: The Proto-Indo-European consonantal system underwent a few major changes. Two of them took place apparently a long time ago in Proto-Thraco-Illyrian, namely, the loss of aspiration of the aspirated stops, which merged with their non-aspirated counterparts. As I mentioned already, this phonological change is shared with the Celtic and Balto-Slavic languages. Another major change is that the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars *gw and *kw turned into labials (b, p) when followed by a back vowel (a, o, u) (see supra). This phenomenon took place most probably in the second half of the last millennium BC. It is attested in Thraco-Illyrian glosses, and it will be discussed below.

The Sibilants: The Proto-Indo-European sibilant *s turned into a š (ş), most probably in Thraco-Dacian (sometime in the 1st millennium BC) before a Proto-Indo-European front vowel (i, e) or a diphthong turned into a high vowel, which underwent iotacism later. The same change is consistently found in Latin lexical elements. Its voiced counterpart did not exist in Proto-Indo-European. Romanian şase ‘six’ was derived from Latin *sess < sex ‘six’ by Tiktin (ZRPh. 12, 456), which was accepted by all other linguists, although the presumptive Latin etymon would yield *şes or *şas in Romanian. In some other Indo-European languages, the form for ‘six’ sounds similar; cf. Lithuanian šeše, Latvian šesi or even Sanskrit ṣaṣ, all from PIE *seks, *su̯eks, *kseks (IEW, 1044). Any of these forms would give *šes or *šas in Romanian. The final vowel –e was added by association with şapte ‘seven’.

Romanian şopârlă ‘lizard’ was associated with Albanian shapë, sheperillë ‘lizard’ and, therefore, at first, it was considered of Albanian origin (Cihac, Meyer). But for Cioranescu, it is of imitative origin. Instead, Reichenkron (1966) considers it of Thraco-Dacian origin, from PIE *sk̂eu– ‘to gush (out), to spring out’, since for Reichenkron, PIE *sk̂ > š in Thraco-Dacian; a hypothesis accepted by Romanian linguists, although he is wrong about it, since PIE *sk did not turn into a š in Thraco-Dacian. In this case, Romanian š is the result of a following iota. Thus, Romanian şopârlă is derived from PIE *serp– ‘to crawl’ (IEW, 912). Also, Romanian şarpe (variant şerpe) ‘snake’ is considered to be of Latin origin, although ş (š) has a phonological evolution similar to şopârlă, and it is derived from the same Proto-Indo-European root. Needless to say that, in Albanian shapë, shepirellë, š (sh) is the result of the same phonological environment. Conversely, when followed by a back vowel or a consonant, PIE *s remains unchanged. Thus, Romanian samă (variant seamă) ‘1. reckoning; 2. number, amount; 3. care, interest; 4. like, equal; 5. report’ is derived from PIE *som(o) ‘one, together, same’ (IEW, 903), with cognates in many Indo-European languages and it is of Thraco-Dacian origin as well (see samă).

When followed by a consonant, it has remained unchanged as in the noun sterp ‘sterile, unfruitful’, considered to be of Thraco-Dacian origin, since it does not have a correspondent in Latin, but has a close cognate in Albanian shterpë ‘sterile, unfruitful’ and even in some southern Italian dialects stirpa and the Venetian dialect sterpa ‘id’. There is also no change of PIE *s in the same phonological environment (in front of a back vowel or a consonant) in the lexical items considered to be of Latin origin as in sare ‘salt’ from PIE *sal-, *sald-, *sal-i, *sal–u ‘salt, sea salt’ (IEW, 878). The root is found in many Indo-European languages including Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian place-names: Thraco-Dacian Sald-apa, meaning ‘salty water’ or Salmo-rude, a lake adjacent to the Black Sea (today’s Lake Razelm) or Sal-entinai (in Dacia) (Walde, 2, 466), Illyrian Saldae (in Pannonia), or Sal-s-ovia (in Thracia). Also, Romanian a sta ‘to stay, to stand, to live’ is considered to derive from Latin stare < PIE *sta-, *stə– ‘to stay, to stand’ (IEW, 1004).

The bilabial stops (p, b): In most cases, the Proto-Indo-European voiced and voiceless bilabial stops did not change in Thraco-Dacian and Romanian. Thus, Romanian pânză ‘fabric’ was given various “etymologies”, by different linguists. Most of them, opted for a Latin origin, either from Latin pandere ‘to stretch, to expand, to spread’ (Puşcariu, 1373; Tiktin; REW, 6190) or Latin *pandea ‘fabric’ (Cioranescu, 6400), which is not attested neither in Latin, nor in any of the Romance languages. Needless to say, neither of these hypotheses can be accepted. On the other hand, Pascu (1, 191) and I. I. Russu (Elemente, 101) considered it to be of Thraco-Dacian origin. Pascu associates it with Greek πένε ‘fabric’. In fact, Romanian pânză is derived from PIE *pand– ‘fabric (Gewebe)’ (IEW, 788). The Thraco-Dacian form must have been *pandia > *panza, with cognates in many other Indo-European languages, besides Greek: Latin pannus ‘fabric, rag’, Gothic fana ‘fabric’, OHG fano ‘id’. Indeed, the Romanian noun pânză has a cognate in Latin pannus, but it cannot be the etymon of the Romanian noun for obvious phonological reasons. Proto-Indo-European non-aspirated voiced bilabial *b was not so frequent. It was preserved as such in Thraco-Dacian and Romanian, as in buză ‘lip’ from PIE *bu– ‘lip, kiss’. On the other hand, the voiced aspirated *bh was much more frequent. Romanian brânză ‘(aged) cheese’ has been considered Thraco-Dacian since late 19th century (Hasdeu, Cuvente, 1, 190), but no linguist could identify the Proto-Indo-European root it originates from. It is derived from PIE *bhrendh– ‘to swell, to ferment, to ripe’, with cognates in Albanian and Lithuanian; cf. Albanian brenza-t (pl.) ‘interius, viscera’, brendësat ‘rennet’, Lithuanian brestu, brendau ‘to swell, to ripen’. From Romanian, it was borrowed into all neighboring languages.

The dental stops (t, d, dh): The Proto-Indo-European voiceless dental stop turned into apical ts (ţ) when followed by a front vowel (see supra). Otherwise, it was preserved in Thraco-Dacian and Romanian. The noun ţarc ‘enclosure’ was originally considered to be a loanword from Albanian cark ‘id’ (Treimer, 38, 391, ZRPH.; Pascu, 2, 222): Philippide, 2, 738; Rosetti, 2, 123). On the other hand, Reichenkron (165) considers it to be Thraco-Dacian from PIE *serk– ‘enclosure, to enclose’ (IEW, 912), but in this case PIE *s would yield a š, not ts (ţ). Instead, I. I. Russu (An. Muz. de E.T., 1958, 146) correctly connected it to the PIE *tu̯er– ‘to enclose’, *terko ‘enclosure’, with cognates in a number of Indo-European languages: Lithuanian tveriů, tvérti ‘to enclose’, tvártas ‘fence, enclosure’, Latvian tvāre ‘fence’, Old Prusian toaris ‘barn, granary’, OCS zatvoriti ‘to lock, to enclose’. From Romanian, it was borrowed in some neighboring languages: Neo-Greek tsarkos and Ukrainian carok, carka, cerkati ‘to milk’. When followed by a back vowel or a consonant, it remained unchanged, as in Romanian tare ‘1. strong, hard, tough; 2. very’ from PIE *(s)ter-, *(s)tero– ‘tough, rigid, to be rigid’ (IEW, 1022). Although Walde-Pokorny reconstructs a Proto-Indo-European root with the vowel *e, all forms of the Indo-European languages are with a, as in Romanian: Sanskrit taras ‘rapidity, strength, energy’, Hittite tarḫuiti ‘tough, strong’, Germanic *stara ‘tough, strong, powerful’, except for Greek stereós ‘tough, strong’. In any case, if we consider the Proto-Indo-European form given by Walde-Pokorny as correct, it means that the PIE *e turned into *a before iotacism.

The non-aspirated Proto-Indo-European voiced stop *d had an evolution similar to its voiceless counterpart. Originally, most linguists considered Romanian mânz ‘colt’ to be Illyrian (not Thraco-Dacian) loanword, namely, from an Illyrian *mandus or *manzus. However, in the last 50 years, some linguists have thought it to be of Thraco-Dacian origin (I. I. Russu, Elemente…, 180; Poghirc, ILR, 2, 332; Brâncuş, VALR, 97). The root is attested in Celtic place-names as well: Gaulish Epo-manduo-dunum and Brittanic Mandu-essedum (cf. Walde) and in the Messapic (Illyrian) god-name Jupiter Menzana ‘Jupiter of the horses’, to whom young horses were sacrificed. Besides these ancient languages and Albanian, the root is also present in some modern languages or dialects: Sardinian mandzu ‘calf’, Italian (dial.) manzo ‘calf’. De Mauro-Mancini (1176) considers Italian manzu to be of pre-Roman origin as well. In Romanian, the root has a few other derivatives: mânzat ‘one year-old calf’, mânzare ‘milking sheep’, cognates to Albanian mënd ‘to suck, to feed’, mëndëshë ‘wet-nurse’, mëz ‘colt’. The same phonological changes are found in a series of Thraco-Dacian personal names such as Zia or in god-names such as Saba-zios or Gebelei-zis, where the second component is a cognate of Latin deus ‘god’. In some ancient works, Saba-zios is also spelled as Saba-dios (see zeu ‘god’).

The aspirated Proto-Indo-European voiced dental stop *dh collapsed with its non-aspirated counterpart. Romanian gard ‘fence’ is derived from PIE *ghordho–s (IEW, 444), where PIE *dh turned into d.



The velar consonants: The Proto-Indo-European velar stop *k followed by a back vowel remained unchanged. Romanian caună ‘mine, salt mine’ (reg.) was considered to come from Latin *cavina < cavus ‘hollow’ (Puşcariu, 324; DAR). The Latin form is not attested, and there are no similar forms in any of the Romance languages. On the other hand, in Romanian, there is a multitude of forms derived from the same root as caună: cavă ‘depression’, căuc (variant căuş) ‘laddle, dipper, scoop’, caval ‘(little) ditch’, gaură (dial. gavră) ‘hole, opening, gap, cavity, crack’, găunos ‘hollow’. All these forms were given, over the years, various etymologies by different authors. There are too many of them to mention here, but all these words are derived form the same PIE *k’ew-, *k’ow-, *k’u– (Bomhard & Kerns) (traditional *geu-, *gǝu-, *gū-, IEW, 393ff), itself from a Proto-Nostratic *k’au-, *k’əu– (Bomhard & Kerns, 281). Romanian lexical forms are derived from an Thraco-Dacian root *kau-, *kou-: Albanian gavër, (gavr)ë ‘hole, crack, opening’, Breton keo ‘cave’, kougon ‘hole’, Middle Irish cua ‘hollow’, cuas ‘hole’, Greek kōos ‘hole’.

Like all other stops, Proto-Indo-European *k, followed by *e or *i was altered, turning into affricate č. Thus, the Romanian river-name Cerna (found in different regions of Romania) originates in PIE *kers-, *kr̥sno– ‘black’ (IEW, 583). The Dacian place-name spelled Tsierna in Greek documents and Dierna in Latin documents was a Dacian city situated at the mouth of the river Cerna, on the northern bank of Danube River. The verb a cerni ‘to color in black’ and cerneală ‘ink’ are derived from the same root.

The Proto-Indo-European voiced non-aspirated velar stop *g had a similar development. The verb a zâmbi ‘to smile’ seems to be derived from PIE *g’embh– ‘to show teeth, to bite’ (IEW, 369).

There is some evidence from Romanian for the existence of a voiceless aspirated velar *kh in Proto-Indo-European, although, it was not as frequent as its voiced counterpart, which turned into voiceless laryngeal h in Romanian. The Neo-grammarians correctly considered that Proto-Indo-European had the voiceless aspirated velar stop *kh, using a small number of data from Indo-Iranian, Armenian, and Greek. In most Indo-European languages, there is no difference between the reflexes of the voiceless aspirated velar stop *kh and its non-aspirated counterpart *k, since the aspirated one lost its aspiration at an early stage in most Indo-European dialects, just before the disintegration of Indo-European (cf. Bomhard & Kerns, 1994). Beside these languages, the laryngeal h is also present in Slavic (x), which could derive only from a Proto-Indo-European *kh. In Romanian, the laryngeal h derives mostly from either an Indo-European voiceless aspirated velar stop *kh or the laryngeal *h. I have to mention also that, in a few cases, the laryngeal h in Romanian may have been derived sometimes from Indo-European *gh where the aspirated sound turned into a laryngeal /h/, as in horn ‘chimney’ (see horn). A number of linguists disagree with the Neo-grammarian hypothesis regarding the presence of voiceless aspirated stops in Indo-European. Nevertheless, as Bomhard maintains, voiceless laryngeal *h, which is present in a number of Indo-European languages, should have an explanation.

On the other hand, according to the Neo-grammarians, the laryngeals did not exist in Proto-Indo-European. However, today, the Laryngeal Theory is accepted by most linguists, although their opinions are divided regarding the number and the nature of these laryngeals. Furthermore, the elimination of Indo-European *kh creates major typological problems as well. Also, the fact that some Indo-European languages, including Romanian inherited it as a laryngeal, indicates the presence of voiceless aspirated velar stop *kh in Proto-Indo-European. Furthermore, A. Martinet (1970:115) shows that, from a typological point of view, the data from a great number of languages, clearly indicate that the voiced aspirated can be added to the non-aspirated voice/voiceless pair only if the voiceless aspirated is present in the language as well. In other words, we cannot have in Indo-European only the pair *k/*g and *gh, without *kh. R. Jakobson (1971:528) takes the same position, and Szemerényi shows also that, since Proto-Indo-European had voiced aspirated, it should have voiceless aspirated as well. For him, there is just one laryngeal, namely, the voiceless glottal fricative *h. He reconstructed the phonetic system of Proto-Indo-European to which he adds *h and eliminated some sounds from the Neogrammarian one (as in Brugmann, 1904:52). Furthermore, Bomhard (1994:62) shows that in some cases a laryngeal explanation is not possible. In some cases, the voiceless aspirated velar *kh seems to be of imitative nature. In Romanian, the verb a hohoti ‘to guffaw’ is considered to be of Slavic origin, although it does not seem to be, as well as the verb a pufăi ‘to puff, to blow, to pant’ from an older a puhăi ‘id’, and the adjective puhav ‘swollen, puffy’, which is derived from the same root as a puhăi from a PIE *p(h)ukh– ‘to puff, to blow, to exhale’. There is a number of cognates of a hohoti: Sanskrit kákhati ‘to laugh’, Latin cachino ‘id’, Armenian xaxank ‘laughter’, OHG kachazzen ‘id.’ and OCS chochotati ‘id’, all from PIE *kha–kha ‘interjection expressing a laughter’ (IEW, 634). Another example where the Nostratic, as well as Indo-European *kh yielded h in Romanian is the noun hoţ ‘1. thief; 2. crook, charlatan’, which cannot be considered in any way of imitative nature. Its etymology has remained controversial to this day. It is quite obvious that Romanian hoţ derives from PN *k[h]aly-/ *k[h]əly– ‘to rob, to steal, to hide’ through the PIE *k[h]elp[h]-/*k[h]olp[h]- ‘to rob, to steal, to hide’ (Bomhard & Kerns, 266): Greek κλέπτω ‘I steal’, Latin clepō ‘I steal’, Gothic hlifan ‘to steal’, hliftus ‘thief’. In Walde-Pokorny (601) the velar is not aspirated, but palatal *k̂lep– ‘to hide, to steal’, thus, one cannot deduce the origin of Romanian hoţ from this root, unless one looks at the Nostratic form. On the other hand, in Dravidian we have: Tamil kaḷ (kaṭp-, kaṭṭ-) ‘to rob, to steal, to cheat’, kaḷavāṇi, kaḷavāḷi, kaḷvan ‘thief’, Malayalam kaḷkkuka, kakkuka ‘to steal’. Forms with the dental /t/: we have Gothic hliftus ‘thief’ and in Tamil. Therefore, we may suppose the existence of an older Thraco-Dacian *holtiu, with a later elision of the lateral /l/. Furthermore, Reichenkron (1966:132) thinks that Romanian hoţ is derived from the PIE (s)keud(h)/*(s)keut– ‘to cover, to hide’: Sankrit kuhaka ‘crook, charlatan’. The German linguist shows that the change of meaning from ‘to cover, to hide’ to the one of ‘to cheat’ is found in Greek and Latin as well. In the case of Romanian language, we may suppose that the two meanings overlapped, leading to the overlapping of the two forms, or we should think of there being in this case just one Indo-European root, instead of two.

The Proto-Indo-European voiced aspirated velar (*gh) lost its aspiration (see supra). The verbs a găsi ‘to find’, a gândi ‘to think’, a ghici ‘to guess, to predict, to divine’ derive from PIE *ghed-, *ghend– ‘to apprehend, to understand’ (IEW, 437). In all these examples, Thraco-Dacian *g followed by *e was not palatalized, because e > ə, before iotacism, since we have the older forms a găndi ‘to think’ and a găci (or gâci) ‘to guess, to predict, to divine’ Cognates of these three verbs are found in Latin, Albanian, Germanic, and Slavic: Latin apre-haendo, compre-haendo ‘to grasp, to understand’, Gothic bi-gitan ‘to find’, Old English be-getan ‘to be given, to receive’, Albanian gjej ‘to find’, OCS gadati ‘to suppose, to guess, to think’.

The Proto-Indo-European labiovelars: As I have shown above, the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars turned into bilabials (p, b) before a back vowel (a, o, u), but turned into a simple velar in other cases. The verb a lepăda ‘1.to drop, to relinquish; 2. to abort’ is considered by most linguists to be derived of Latin lapidare ‘to cover with stones, to kill by stoning’, but this etymology should be rejected. Instead, I. I. Russu thinks it is of Thraco-Dacian origin, but he gives no other details. This verb is derived from PIE *leikw– ‘to leave behind, to drop, to relinquish’ (IEW, 669), with cognates in several Indo-European languages: Greek λείπω ‘to leave behind, to abandon’, Latin linquo ‘to leave behind, to abandon’, Armenian likanem ‘id’, Lithuanian lieků ‘1. to leave behind, to abandon; 2. to remain, to stay’. The conjunction şi ‘and’ is derived from PIE *kwe ‘and’ (enclitic) > *ke. The velar turned into an affricate in front of a front vowel: *-ke > şi ‘and’: Sanskrit ca ‘and’, Avestan, Old Persian ča ‘id’ (enclitic), Latin –que ‘id’ (enclitic), OCS če ‘and’, Lithuanian –ke ‘and’ (enclitic).

The Proto-Indo-European voiced labiovelar *gw turned into b. The noun bou ‘ox’ is considered to be of Latin origin, but it is attested in Illyrian glosses (see supra), in Dacian bou-dathla ‘a plant’ (in Dioscorides), as well as the Illyrian place-name Bou-dorgis translated as ‘oxen-tower’ by Chantraine (1147), but, I think, a better translation should be ‘oxen-fair’. The second component should be connected to the Illyrian place-name Tergeste (today’s Triest) as well as Romanian târg ‘fair, market’ and the city-name Târgovişte, former capital of Wallachia till around the end of 15th century. Romanian bou < PIE *gwou-s ‘cow, ox’ (IEW, 482), where the Proto-Indo-European voiced labiovelar *gw turned into b, a widespread transformation found in Thraco-Illyrian, Osco-Umbrian, Continental Celtic, as well as in some Greek dialects (see supra): Latin bos, bovis ‘ox’ (a loan-word), Greek bous ‘id’, Umbrian bum, Welsh buwch, Breton buch, as well as Sankrit gauḥ ‘cow’, Avestan gauš ‘id’, Armenian kov ‘id’, Latvian guovs, OCS govedo, Tocharian A ko ‘id’, Albanian ka ‘cow’. One can see clearly that the Albanian form is not descended from Illyrian. As I mention above, the ancestors of Albanian are the Epirotic dialects (see supra). On the other hand, Latin bos was borrowed from Osco-Umbrian or a Continental Celtic or an Illyrian dialect, since in Latin, PIE *gw and *kw never turned into b, p, respectively (cf. Latin aqua). In a closed stressed syllable, PIE *o turned into a in Thraco-Dacian and was preserved as such in Romanian. Beyond the Indo-European languages, the root is found in other Nostratic families such as in Afro-asiatic (Orel, 905) and Dravidian as well as in Sumerian (Bomhard & Kerns, 346). When it was followed by a front vowel, it was palatalized. The noun jar ‘embers’ < PIE *gwher-, gwhermo– (IEW, 498): Albanian zjar, zjarm ‘id’.

The nasals: Both Proto-Indo-European nasals (m, n) were preserved in Thraco-Dacian and Romanian. The noun mire ‘bridegroom’ has been given various etymologies over the years, but Poghirc (ILR, 2, 345) and Brâncuş (VALR, 142) consider it to be of Thraco-Dacian origin. Indeed, Romanian mire is derived from PIE *meri̯o– ‘young man’ (IEW, 738): Sanskrit marya- ‘young man, lover, fiancé’, Old Prussian martin ‘bride’, Lithuanian marti ‘bride’. Romanian mireasă ‘bride’ is a derivative of the masculine form, while the verb a (se) mărita ‘to marry (about women)’ is considered to be of Latin origin, but in fact, it seems to originate from the same Proto-Indo-European root. The root is found in some other Nostratic families such as Afro-asiatic and Dravidian (Bomhard & Kerns, 522).

The verb a necheza (Aromanian necl’eazare) ‘to neigh’ was considered by traditional linguistics to be a variant of a râncheza ‘id’ which was considered of either Greek or Latin origin. In fact, a râncheza is a phonetic variant of a necheza, not the other way around as it was believed. The verb a necheza has cognates with the same meaning in the Germanic languages or similar meanings in other Indo-European languages. It is derived from PIE *kneug– ‘imitative formation’ (IEW, 608): Greek κνιξάν ‘to snarl’, Lithuanian kniaukti ‘to meow’, Old English knaegan ‘to neigh’, MHG nēgen ‘id’.

All non-round vowels (a, e, i) turned into î (spelled also â), which is a mid-central vowel, in front of both nasals (m, n), in all lexical items of both Thraco-Dacian or Latin origin; cf. a spânzura ‘to hang’ < PIE *(s)pend– ‘to draw, to stretch’, of Thraco-Dacian origin, or împărat ‘emperor’ < Latin imperator ‘emperor’.

The liquids: The Proto-Indo-European liquids (r, l) did not undergo major changes. The Proto-Indo-European vibrant lateral *r did not change in Thraco-Dacian and Romanian. The noun beregată ‘throat, esophagus’ was considered to be derived from Latin *verrucata < verruca ‘protuberance on the skin’ (Puscariu, Dacor., 9, 440; Cioranescu, 776), but this etymology cannot be taken seriously. It is derived from PIE *bherug-, *bhrug-, *bhorg– ‘1. throat, trachea; 2. pharynx’ (IEW, 145): cf. Greek pharynx, Armenian beran ‘mouth’, Lithuanian burna ‘mouth’. Unlike *r, the liquid *l underwent some changes. In intervocalic position, in most cases, it turned into r (rhotacism). However, there are some exceptions which are difficult to explain. On the other hand, it was palatalized before a front vowel which underwent iotacism and eventually disappeared. Both these conditions apply to lexical items of Thraco-Dacian or Latin origin as well. The noun iepure ‘hare, rabbit’ is considered to derive from Latin leporem < lepus ‘id’: Italian lebre, Italian Calabrian dialect liepuru, Albanian lepur, Old Sicilian leporine, Ancient Greek (dialect of Massilia, today’s Marseille) leberís ‘id’ (most probably a Celtic loanword). Romanian iepure (Aromanian l’epur(e)) comes much closer to the Calabrian and Albanian forms. The Italian Calabrian dialect inherits some Oscan phonological features. Instead, the noun femeie ‘woman’ (Aromanian femeal’e, fumeale ‘family’) is certainly of Latin origin. It is derived from Latin familia ‘family’, undergoing the same phonological transformation. In intervocalic position, it underwent rhotacism, in words of both Latin and Thraco-Dacian origin. The noun sare ‘salt’ is considered to be of Latin origin, from Latin sal, sal-is, but we saw that the root is attested in Thraco-Dacian place-names, as well, all from PIE *sal-, *sald-, *sali-, *sal–u ‘salt, sea water’ (IEW, 878) (see supra). On the other hand, the adjective fericit ‘happy’ is of Latin origin, namely, form Latin fēlix ‘happy’. Furthermore, the verb a feri ‘to protect, to cover, to avoid’ was given several different “etymologies” not worthy of discussion. Instead, Reichenkron (120) derives it from PIE *pel-, *pelǝ-, *plē– ‘to cover, to hide, to protect’ (IEW, 803) where p > f, due to a e which underwent iotacism and with intervocalic l turning into r, a general rule in Romanian.

Laryngeals: The presence of Proto-Indo-European laryngeal(s) in Romanian has never been discussed before. The laryngeal h is quite frequent in Romanian, but it has different origins, a fact that led to the confusion about its source(s). It is well known that Late Latin lost all its laryngeals. Therefore, Romanian could not inherit the laryngeal from Latin. However, it is found in some Slavic loanwords such as odihnă ‘rest’ and duh ‘spirit’ , Turkish loanwords like hal ‘bad condition or situation’, halva ‘halva(h)’ or Greek origin hartă ‘map’, hârtie ‘paper’, hamsie ‘small fish’. There are also several Gothic words in Romanian which have the laryngeal h: haită ‘1. pack of wolfs or dogs; 2. bitch’, haldău ‘cowboy’ (reg. Transylvania), haiduc ‘outlaw’. Although in most cases, laryngeal h is found in words of Thraco-Dacian origin. Grigore Brâncuş (VALR, 1983) was the first Romanian linguist who understood that there are Romanian words of Thraco-Dacian origin that have the laryngeal h and, therefore, this sound was inherited from this language.

Bomhard (1994) and other Nostraticists consider that Proto-Nostratic had four laryngeals: */ʔ/, */h/, */ħ/ and */ʕ/, which were preserved in early Proto-Indo-European. Bomhard shows that before the breaking up of the Proto-Indo-European parent language, these laryngeals started to come closer to each other and to overlap. The new sounds were pronounced with an open glottis, thus, they turned into so-called ‘an a-coloring’ laryngeal. At this moment, the Anatolian languages separated from the other Indo-European languages. Bomhard drew his conclusion based on the fact that the Anatolian languages have a laryngeal, while most of the other Indo-European languages lost it. A better hypothesis would be that most of non-Anatolian Indo-European dialects begun to lose the laryngeals, but not all these dialects did, since the original Indo-European laryngeal still can be found in a few daughter languages, including Romanian, as I have shown above. He shows that in the late post-Anatolian Indo-European (the period when this language begun to disintegrate), all laryngeals turned into *h which, later on, disappeared from most Indo-European dialects. Based on the evidence from Armenian language, Bomhard thinks that the only laryngeal of this period was the voiceless fricative laryngeal *h which seems to be correct. However, beside Armenian, it can be found in Romanian and Albanian as well.

The laryngeal /h/ is quite frequent in Romanian. Thus, the laryngeals in the verb a hămesi ‘to starve, to be hungry’, as well as in Albanian hamës ‘insatiable, glutton’ represent the Proto-Indo-European laryngeal */h/. Forms with laryngeal having similar meanings are found in the Afro-asiatic languages. Thus, one may reconstruct a Proto-Nostratic *ham-/*həm– ‘to eat, to be hungry, to be insatiable’: Semitic *nVham ‘to be insatiable’; Arabic nhm, West Chadic *hVm ‘to eat, to chew’, East Chadic *ham (cf. Orel, 1995:1157). Furthermore, we have Romanian verb hăcui ‘to cut into, to cut into pieces’ which derives from the Proto-Nostratic *ħak’-/*ħək’- ‘to cut into’ (Bomhard & Kerns, 401) > Proto-Indo-European *ħhek’-w(e)siH ‘ax’: Greek άκξινη ‘ax’, Latin ascia < *acsia ‘ax for carpenters and masons’, Gothic akizi, Old English ćx, ćsc ‘ax’, as well as Proto-Afro-asiatic *ħak’- ‘to cut into’: Semitic *xak’- > Arabic ḫaḳḳ ‘crevice in the ground’, Hebrew ḥāḳaḳ ‘to cut in, to engrave’. Another example is the verb a hurui ‘to destroy, to demolish’, used mostly in Transylvania, which is derived from Proto-Nostratic *ħul-/*ħol– ‘to destroy, to lay waste, to cause to perish’ (Bomhard & Kerns, 412) having cognates in Indo-European and Dravidian languages: Hittite ḫu-ul-la-a-i ‘to smite, to destroy’, Greek ὄλλῡμι ‘to destroy, to make an end of’, Latin ab-oleō ‘to destroy’, Tamil ula ‘to become diminished, to be wasted, to die, to terminate’, ulakkai ‘end, ruin, death’, Malayalam ulayuka ‘to be impoverished, ruined’ and Sumerian hul ‘to destroy’. In the case of this last example, from all the derivatives in the daughter languages, only Sumerian, Hittite, and Romanian kept the Proto-Nostratic laryngeal */ħ/ as h.

To sum up, the data from Romanian language shows that Proto-Indo-European had the aspirated voiceless velar stop */kh/, as well as the laryngeal */h/. In Romanian, these two Indo-European sounds collapsed into the voiceless laryngeal /h/. In most Indo-European languages, the laryngeals have disappeared, and the voiceless aspirated velar */kh/ has turned into its non-aspirated counterpart. In other words, it is difficult to reconstruct PIE */kh/, taking into consideration most of the Indo-European daughter languages. Instead, the data from the Romanian language indicate the presence in Proto-Indo-European of both: the voiceless aspirated velar */kh/ and at least of one laryngeal */h/. Therefore, one may say that the evidence from Romanian shows that post-Anatolian Indo-European had at least one laryngeal, which disappeared from most, but not all, Indo-European dialects. Although, until now, the scarcity of data led to controversial positions in Indo-European studies, these two phonological aspects found in Romanian represent a turning point in the understanding of these two sounds of Proto-Indo-European."

Mark (Star Mariner)
2nd September 2023, 15:37
quoted from here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?121817-Do-you-follow-any-Religion&p=1575088&viewfull=1#post1575088)






Even learn how to question literary everything

The word "literary" makes no sense here. Even if it's supposed to be "literally", I think that word is unnecessary.

Anyway, I appreciate all of the essays but I'll restrict my answer to this: I don't have a religion but my "bible" is "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin. He explains everything far better than I could and, although he's probably a long way from being 100% correct, I think he's closer to the truth than most.


Sorry if am not always 100% correct ... English is not my native language! ... Thanks for the heads-up ... I edited it and corrected it! :smash: <<< me correcting things ...

'Literally', used as an intensifier, is one of the English language's most redundant, over-used, and annoying words. We're all guilty of using it at one time or another, but what's interesting to me is that it's beginning to creep into the vocabulary of non-native speakers, like you John.

That's not a criticism at all, just a casual, but curious, observation ;)

But John Hilton is correct. It's a bad habit word. Young people are prone to using it in particular. They can scarcely utter a sentence without it these days! 'Literally' shares a close lineage to the word 'really', another over-used word, whose informal context has shifted to a general intensifier from the original adverb, meaning 'what is real'.

Dictionary buffs have much to say on the topic of 'literally'. For its pure and correct usage I like this interpretation:

literally
adv.
in a literal manner; word for word: literally translated; actually; without exaggeration or inaccuracy: The platoon was literally wiped out in the explosion.

So, best used sparingly, and only with context in mind. It can be added to this list of similar, commonly-used modifiers best avoided if at all possible.

totally
completely
absolutely
definitely
certainly
basically
virtually

Paul D.
2nd September 2023, 16:08
quoted from here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?121817-Do-you-follow-any-Religion&p=1575088&viewfull=1#post1575088)






Even learn how to question literary everything

The word "literary" makes no sense here. Even if it's supposed to be "literally", I think that word is unnecessary.

Anyway, I appreciate all of the essays but I'll restrict my answer to this: I don't have a religion but my "bible" is "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin. He explains everything far better than I could and, although he's probably a long way from being 100% correct, I think he's closer to the truth than most.


Sorry if am not always 100% correct ... English is not my native language! ... Thanks for the heads-up ... I edited it and corrected it! :smash: <<< me correcting things ...

'Literally', used as an intensifier, is one of the English language's most redundant, over-used, and annoying words. We're all guilty of using it at one time or another, but what's interesting to me is that it's beginning to creep into the vocabulary of non-native speakers, like you John.

That's not a criticism at all, just a casual, but curious, observation ;)

But John Hilton is correct. It's a bad habit word. Young people are prone to using it in particular. They can scarcely utter a sentence without it these days! 'Literally' shares a close lineage to the word 'really', another over-used word, whose informal context has shifted to a general intensifier from the original adverb, meaning 'what is real'.

Dictionary buffs have much to say on the topic of 'literally'. For its pure and correct usage I like this interpretation:

literally
adv.
in a literal manner; word for word: literally translated; actually; without exaggeration or inaccuracy: The platoon was literally wiped out in the explosion.

So, best used sparingly, and only with context in mind. It can be added to this list of similar, commonly-used modifiers best avoided if at all possible.

totally
completely
absolutely
definitely
certainly
basically
virtually

Does it matter .This is a international forum with members with a variety of first languages & with various levels of formal 'education '. It's not a English forum .I know what people mean when they use any of the words in your closing list , they work as 'intensifiers ' as far as I'm concerned.
I use plenty of them & I will continue to do so , definitely ...absolutely.

ExomatrixTV
2nd September 2023, 18:50
quoted from here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?121817-Do-you-follow-any-Religion&p=1575088&viewfull=1#post1575088)






Even learn how to question literary everything

The word "literary" makes no sense here. Even if it's supposed to be "literally", I think that word is unnecessary.

Anyway, I appreciate all of the essays but I'll restrict my answer to this: I don't have a religion but my "bible" is "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin. He explains everything far better than I could and, although he's probably a long way from being 100% correct, I think he's closer to the truth than most.

Sorry if am not always 100% correct ... English is not my native language! ... Thanks for the heads-up ... I edited it and corrected it! :smash: <<< me correcting things ...

'Literally', used as an intensifier, is one of the English language's most redundant, over-used, and annoying words. We're all guilty of using it at one time or another, but what's interesting to me is that it's beginning to creep into the vocabulary of non-native speakers, like you John.

That's not a criticism at all, just a casual, but curious, observation ;)

But John Hilton is correct. It's a bad habit word. Young people are prone to using it in particular. They can scarcely utter a sentence without it these days! 'Literally' shares a close lineage to the word 'really', another over-used word, whose informal context has shifted to a general intensifier from the original adverb, meaning 'what is real'.

Dictionary buffs have much to say on the topic of 'literally'. For its pure and correct usage I like this interpretation:

literally
adv.
in a literal manner; word for word: literally translated; actually; without exaggeration or inaccuracy: The platoon was literally wiped out in the explosion.

So, best used sparingly, and only with context in mind. It can be added to this list of similar, commonly-used modifiers best avoided if at all possible.

totally
completely
absolutely
definitely
certainly
basically
virtually

Does it matter .This is a international forum with members with a variety of first languages & with various levels of formal 'education '. It's not a English forum .I know what people mean when they use any of the words in your closing list , they work as 'intensifiers ' as far as I'm concerned.
I use plenty of them & I will continue to do so , definitely ...absolutely.

In the Netherlands 🇳🇱 we have people who are extreme obsessed with "correct language" ... so much so, it was used multiple times in parodies & spoofs ... here in Holland we use a name for that and The Dutch 🇳🇱 do not mean it in a literary sense of the word but more as a metaphor: "Taalnazi (https://www.google.com/search?q=taalnazi&tbm=isch)" translated: "Grammer Nazi" which sounds not as good if you hear it from a Dutch Perspective ... When Dutch 🇳🇱 talk to each other, most are blunt & super direct 24/7 (https://www.google.com/search?q=dutch+directness+blunt+examples&tbm=vid) and after a while you "get used to it" ... but if you are born in to it and raised that way ... you do not know better ... It is just how most of us are.

There is a Dutch 🇳🇱 saying: "de soep wordt niet zo heet gegeten als hij wordt opgediend" (the soup is not eaten as hot as it is served) ... we are well aware that sometimes people like to exaggerate things and when all is settled and the anger is allowed to be spoken people tend to become more grounded after all is in the open. This psychological mechanism may NOT work for other cultures, as they interpreted it way too serious! ...

The better you become at something, the less "tolerant/patient" you may be towards those who are "not on your level" ... This behavior of perfectionism almost always goes hand in hand with projected expectations unfulfilled ... especially when you sacrificed so much to be where you're at ... hoping others will do the same (or better).

All the psychological mechanisms I just described can be part of what & who we are, depending on the situation and with whom you are with ... When you are in a "good mood" all of my shared "insights" are totally redundant, as almost everything in life is super relative https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/wink_animated.gif

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

Bill Ryan
2nd September 2023, 19:07
A very interesting 10 minute video recommended to me by our own Carolyn Morgan (Heart to Heart (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?47730-Heart-to-heart)). It's all about the power of language.

Words are spells - be careful!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhW2I9CrAQo

Heart to heart
5th September 2023, 09:03
Since Richard posted this video on UTube there have been no more words from him.
He usually posts every day so am wondering if he has upset someone?
Apparently he has been banned before for his humorous banter!

Bill Ryan
5th September 2023, 12:16
Since Richard posted this video on UTube there have been no more words from him.
He usually posts every day so am wondering if he has upset someone?
Apparently he has been banned before for his humorous banter!Yes, 3 hours ago he posted this update, after being banned by YouTube for a week. :facepalm:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW4j2fL306U