Marijuana - a most complicated matter

[Chester]

Nothing you will read from this post or any other post I write in this thread will ever change as to the following.

I view marijuana as a plant that has grown freely on the face of this planet for eons. It could be regarded as a medicinal plant. It can also be regarded as a plant that, depending on how compounds contained within the plant are ingested, could induce shamanic journeys.

If I had to be labeled anything politically, it would be strong libertarian. Thus, with regards to all drugs, my firm opinion is that they should not be illegal, including marijuana. Having said that, if I could wave a magic wand at this very moment whereby suddenly all drugs in all lands would be legal, I would have no doubt the short and intermediate term results would be dramatic and not in such a good way.

But I created this thread to focus on marijuana. The thread will be a mix of anecdotal and factual information. But it is critical the reader understands that whatever I write here, none of it is meant to demonize marijuana. I am sure that despite my words here, some readers will do what so, so, so many people who, for whatever reasons, feel any information that could be considered in any way “negative” with regards to marijuana is to be automatically and vehemently argued against, denied, called lies, etc. Those who do may better benefit from looking within as to why they feel the need to respond this way.

And so here goes with the content of my first post on the subject – Marijuana Induced Psychosis.

What is marijuana induced psychosis? It is when a psychosis has emerged where there has been usage of marijuana shortly preceding the psychosis and/or prolonged usage of marijuana preceding and/or continuing through the psychosis emergence stages. And so, the question is, how could the circumstances I described above be conclusive that the psychosis was induced by marijuana usage? Studies. That’s how. And there has been more and more studies that are increasingly conclusive that people who have a predisposition to developing psychosis significantly increase the risk psychosis develops by usage of marijuana. That risk increases even further proportional to the strength, dosage and frequency of use. That risk increases when first usage begins in the teenage years. That risk is significantly higher for males than females by the way.

So again, to pro marijuana folks, don’t get defensive based on what I wrote above. It's simply facts. But I have more facts that may be appreciated more.

The percentage of the population that have this proclivity is at most, about 5%. In addition, not all people that have this proclivity, ever discover and use marijuana, though there is a higher percentage of users in this group than users without the proclivity.

So, because of my strong political position as a libertarian combined with the fact that such a small percentage of humanity appears vulnerable to this proclivity, I am not against marijuana. Perhaps those who know anything about my own personal story might be surprised regardless of the two points I just made. And that is because I have suffered through ten marijuana induced psychosis episodes. Yes, ten. I emerged from the last one in January of 2012.

If I am able, because it’s difficult to talk about, I will share more. But my “war stories” are not why I created this thread. The reason for creating this thread is to explore the likelihood (only my opinion) that what may lie at the heart of “mental illnesses” like schizophrenia and extreme bipolar situations, both which often lead to full blown psychosis events, is not just some “chemical imbalance” situation… no, no – its [I]demonic attention, demonic intrusion.

Understand, I don’t “do” religion. So, my usage of the term ‘demonics’ is not meant within any sort of religious framework or paradigm. Be there entities that either reside in or manifest from some section of reality beyond our material, five sense realm… entities that either appear in some individualized expression of form or which act as if they do, or if there simply be a dark energetic force that can’t be traced back to an entity but is clearly intrusive, if the result of the intrusion is, in any way, anti-life (evil) then, for me, that is an example of demonics.

Now to connect the dots a bit here. If an individual happens to have the proclivity towards a vulnerability to schizophrenia or bipolar illness, and thus psychosis, and marijuana clearly increases that risk, then what users with this risk are actually exposing themselves to is an increase in the probability of success of demonic activity and the negative impacts that activity has on themselves and their loved ones.

That psychosis opens the door to demonic intrusion, of this, I have no doubt. I have experienced this first hand almost a dozen times (as stated above). That more and more research suggests this proclivity is, at least in part, genetic, I have experienced first hand as well… my father, after his suicide, was diagnosed posthumously as schizophrenic (1979 when they knew far less about it)… my oldest son has had four psychotic episodes (which so happened to include long term, heavy marijuana use in each case) and he is only 28 years old.

I have a lot more to say about the subject of marijuana, the good, the medical benefits, the reasonably benign recreational usage for most, the business of marijuana (both legal and illegal) and more.

[ZenBaller]

Working at a psychiatrist office for some years, I can confirm that we have plenty of patients with psychosis induced by marijuana. The sad thing is that most of them are teenagers. My humble opinion through experience from friends and patients, is that the use of marijuana tends to make individuals lose the ability of being conscious in the spiritual sense. As Eckhart Tolle would put, it puts them in a euphoric state which is below the mind and not above it. It might make you feel much calmer or even provide lower astral experiences. However not because of a raised awareness but from its dip in a lower state of consciousness.
It's the bliss of ignorance effect which also seems to create energetic "holes" because of the lowering of consciousness.

[enfoldedblue]

Hi Sam, Thanks for sharing...I hear what a struggle this was for you. I understand how out of this world intense this state is...and experiencing it 10x is massive. I'd be curious to know your thoughts as to whether this would be different if we didn't live in such a harsh, unsupportive, and medicalized society. As I wrote about in Jump in the Blue, I was hospitalized with what the doctors labeled psychosis. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that if I had had wise people around me who understood the cosmic elements as well as the process, who could have held safe space for me and allowed me to go through the journey... i may have come out the otherside without need for medical intervention. I do not know because I was forceable strapped down and medicated...and when i awoke was back in normal reality.
What are your thoughs on Paul Levi's work?

[Richard S.]

After forty years of daily use, I have stopped completely for 6 months now. Cold turkey!

I can't start to express the benefits I am experiencing.
No one can now promote this in front of me and tell me that marijuana smoke inhalation is good for you, I have the experience first hand, and plenty of it

This just to mention, the dreams I am getting are like the floodgates have not been opened, they have been removed...

[Ratszinger]

I did it a lot when I was younger. I started later than all my friends though and by some number of years actually. They were all doing it around me all the time for a couple years but once I started I liked it. However, the idea of ever getting hooked on it was a joke. Finding it was you know, hit or miss. Alcohol was readily available and that was the true gateway drug if there ever was one. Only now with legal pot and the frequent use of it is it coming into a field of focus where people will do studies like this or similar. I personally don't trust the motives of someone doing a controversial study such as this with a preset predisposition for how they feel about it already established. Going in objectively seems to be the only honest way.

Psychosis to me is to 'severe' a word to apply here also. I don't see that severity of separation from reality in any of the people I have known that smoked. I myself smoked heavily for a long time and drank. It had nothing to do with my success or my job and never once showed any signs of hurting me at all even with heavy use. I quit for many years like fifteen years later after that fact of just cold turkey quitting everything back in what was it, 02.? Yeah it was cold so it must been that first quarter of the year maybe. Anyway I gave it all up. Then I got cancer. I still dont' drink but I got the marijuana license and had my prostate removed, only to have the the PSA still be climbing after the surg. so I have to get radiation treatments to which are ongoing. I honestly don't know how I could get through it without the marijuana. Even the oncologist who is from London by the way, suggested it over anything he could prescribe me! So I do it and it works.

Effects? Oh yeah but no surprises. Did you know they sell marijuana that doesn't have a psychoactive effect? They do! I smoke some of it but only for the benefit of not getting sick at my stomach. The other thing people ignore about legal pot is that these studies focus on recreational use and it's unfair to the people like myself using it for medical purposes because it totally ignores what it's needed for and how well it works! I have a small amount of pot in my bowl in the morning and I smoke it maybe three tokes to get rid of it all. Then I do that maybe again around noon, and then before bed. I don't even notice the smoke or effect of it in my lungs, & just had a full body scan two days ago showing clear lungs after nearly 30 years of heavy pot smoking when I did do it for recreation. Now I don't even buy the heavy THC stuff. I get the high CBD and cancer and pain fighting effects when I need it and it's nice to know it's available but for instant relief nothing beats the stuff they provide for the burning and general feeling of depression you get from just dealing with it daily as they light you up more and more each day.

Anyway I don't care that you want to do studies but they should be fair and balanced and always point out the true benefits medically that the plant does provide to people that really need it. Not every one is doing it to get wasted.

Lastly this study ignores the other effects of psychosis, like environment and trauma from abuse and so on. Other factors can influence this so to focus on just pot seems a bit, well like someone just wants to single out this plant for some reason.

As I use it I may develop a need to go off into some altered state of awareness if this reality gets too painful I suppose but if it's just the sunburn and not being able to wear a belt or sit in a high back chair and the little burn I get when I go to the rest room and marijuana can relieve that then so be it. Psychosis or not I'd smoke the pot and be comfortable! Lower astral plane or not!

[Ratszinger]

Oh, the lower like bottom grade THC content plants that have the highest CBD that I like both the flavor and true relief from are Painkiller XL strain, and Fast Eddie strain. Both of these were bought local and have 6% THC which is basically not going to be even noticed by an old stoner from the 50's in two or three hits in the morning. The pain relief and nausea relief is truly remarkable. I also use the CBD drops which control upset stomach quite a bit and highly recommend them. Just in case anyone was wondering. You can add that to your study I guess. There are probably other strains I could try but that is the two local varieties they offered me based on my treatment plan which was mapped out by like five different specialists and none of them objected to the pot, most highly suggested I have it on hand and one flat out admitted they could not provide anything better.

[Sunny-side-up]

It also depends on the Marijuana you are taking:

Is it good old natural weed or hi potency Skunk line?
Skunk is a very, very strong drug and can be damaging to some straight off the bat.

Plus how many users have also miked other substances to become ill?

Marijuana is something to be used wisely as a mind opener as if given by a Shaman and not for fun or long term.
Been there done that.

[ExomatrixTV]

Here in Holland Marijuana is by most Dutch citizens perceived as "no big deal" , less fear mongering, less misrepresentations, less fast judgemental "conclusions" parroted (confirmation bias syndrome) etc. ... I used it for years and eventually decided to stop ... not because some one told me so, nor was I "fearful" whatsoever ... Almost all chemical "anti-depressants" pushed & sold by Big Pharma Mafia are much worse than Marijuana ... same for Alcohol use, the hypocrisy is harrowing.

If SOME people have traumas or other severe psychological problems it would and will come to the surface anyway with or without marijuana use ... you can not blame alcohol for psychological problems you already had when you started to use alcohol ... same for Marijuana.

Everyone is unique how you cope with it and what kind of effect it has. To blame the plant is what most like to do ... so that you do NOT have to think further. People who appear 100% 'normal', healthy & balanced may well be "unbalanced" after Marijuana use ... not because the plant is bad but we all live in an totally insane society that if they call me "normal" I really have to worry. I rather be called "crazy" in a world of totally insane "norms" & mass bad conditioning. The moment you break free from this madness OF COURSE you appear "unbalanced" ;) So do not blame the plant for that.

Btw, you CAN have a "bad trip" if you start way too strong or if the quality is poor, or worse they add some other stuff in it depending if you buy "pre-rolled joints" = ±3 Euros (3 for ±7,50).

cheers,
John Kuhles 8 November 2019

[Matt P]

Everyone is different and thank goodness! Not everyone can drink milk or eat peanuts. Marijuana is the same. It can cause issues with some and is God’s magic cure for others. I would be in prison or dead without it, and I have a very happy and loving life with a beautiful wife and children, great business, etc. I don’t believe I’d have any of it without.

Matt

[Pam]

I have a long term friend that started smoking on a very regular basis once it was legalized. It absolutely created psychosis in him, with extreme paranoid delusions. At first it only seemed to happen while under the influence but eventually it became his reality construct all the time. The strange thing is he still kept smoking it. It's interesting, there was a time when he became very angry. It was the weirdest thing. The guys voice and speech pattern changed and his appearance looked so different. I swear it was like a totally different person. I do have to sat he seemed to be possessed.

I can't imagine what the attraction was to something that makes one so paranoid. I guess the same thing could be asked to meth users. Maybe it goes back to the attraction of the original feelings one got with the substance. That was true of my relationship with alcohol.

Personally, I never found any relaxation with marijuana, only an intense awareness and an uneasiness being on this planet that was overwhelming to me. I do see that it could be very wonderful if used wisely for some.

[petra]

...
That psychosis opens the door to demonic intrusion, of this, I have no doubt. I have experienced this first hand almost a dozen times (as stated above). That more and more research suggests this proclivity is, at least in part, genetic, I have experienced first hand as well… my father, after his suicide, was diagnosed posthumously as schizophrenic (1979 when they knew far less about it)… my oldest son has had four psychotic episodes (which so happened to include long term, heavy marijuana use in each case) and he is only 28 years old.

Thank you for this thread - I have no doubt you are correct.

I've smoked marijuana for about 20 years, and for most of those years had 0 concerns about it. I'm also a Christian who has always been aware of the demonic problem. I'd just never witnessed anything I might consider demonic until I began researching into psychopathy. That's when pieces began to fall together, and I began to feel a 'larger scale manipulation' was taking place.

I still smoke, and in light of this thread I've considered stopping. When I do though, I can feel a part of me is saying "HI EVIL HERE I AM COME AND GET ME HA HA HA". I'm just not afraid of the darned demons (excuse me), but I suppose that could change...

The possibility of schizophrenia is written on the marijuana packages where I live, so I can't help but find it concerning that even though it is a known fact that marijuana can cause psychosis, it got legalized anyway. I mean, isn't that kind of like promoting schizophrenia? (pardon my cynicism)

[sunwings]

I have learned to respect Marijuana a lot more, after years of abuse.

If I smoke marijuana (maybe once a month) I make sure I am in a positive frame of mind. I have been able to clear so many blockages whilst being high. I become my own psychologist and it has really helped me to evolve spiritually.

[Blacklight43]

I have known since my 30s that I had allergies to prescription meds and it seems the older I got the worse the allergies got. When I was 72 I injured my back and had to have surgery and the drugs they had me on were pure torture! My dear neighbor knowing my situation came to my rescue with some medicated cookies he made! I was in so much pain I was only able to sleep 1 or 2 hours at a time. I ate only part of that cookie and in about 90 minutes I realized I was NOT in any pain and was able to sleep for 8 straight hours.

I immediately got my medical use card and changed from prescription meds to home grown. I grow it myself so I know exactly what is in it. I must say my first time made me a bit anxious and if I ingest a bit too much I feel it again. I know a breeder who is working with me to get a strain that is high CBD and low THC. That combo works best for my chronic pain.

I tried smoking once or twice but I find for me ingesting either edibles or tinctures works best. I'm sure I'll get it figured out by the time I reach the end of this road. I did get a late start but I am a quick learner. I have learned lots and still have a lot to learn about the Sacred Plant. Cultivating it is one of my passions these days.

I was brainwashed at an early age about the evilness of the weed and now in my late 70s I am undoing all that and learning of the many benefits of this magnificent plant.

[Caliban]

The thing is, the stuff you get now is much stronger than thirty years ago. One or two hits and whamo!!

There needs to be more education for young people now when it's getting legalized in many places. It's not a toy, it's not a crutch, it's not a thing you do to be part of the crowd. It's an ally and a friend and it can show you things about your unconscious and your emotions that you've been missing. That doesn't mean you should use it whenever you feel "down" or "lost" or inadequate. That's when it starts to bite you in the ass because you're not using it wisely.

People need to be taught these things and more--for instance take it easy--take one hit and see how you feel. The edibles are much stronger, so try a tiny piece of something. But I don't see this education going on. It can become like any other addiction and ANY addiction can lead to serious mental illness. We need elders and experiencers talking more widely about these things.

[Praxis]

Oh, the lower like bottom grade THC content plants that have the highest CBD that I like both the flavor and true relief from are Painkiller XL strain, and Fast Eddie strain. Both of these were bought local and have 6% THC which is basically not going to be even noticed by an old stoner from the 50's in two or three hits in the morning. The pain relief and nausea relief is truly remarkable. I also use the CBD drops which control upset stomach quite a bit and highly recommend them. Just in case anyone was wondering. You can add that to your study I guess. There are probably other strains I could try but that is the two local varieties they offered me based on my treatment plan which was mapped out by like five different specialists and none of them objected to the pot, most highly suggested I have it on hand and one flat out admitted they could not provide anything better.

So there are legally two distinct plants in the United States: Cannabis and Hemp. (and it is a vegetable!)

Hemp is legally defined(and is currently undergoing a comment period as they are probably gonna change the rules again) as having less than,I believe, .3% THC.

Cannabis is anything that is over that limit.

The thing is, all hemp becomes cannabis given enough time on the plant. So to get a plant that doesnt have too THC one must cut it down before it gets hot, which reduces yield sizes.

Why .3%? No reason. Just arbitrary. Also they are talking of making that 0% THC in the future which will give certain actors in the market a monopoly on the genetics of those plants which have 0% THC and it will reduce the value of the medicine as there is interplay between THC and CBD.

The hemp does really help alot people with a variety of ailments. BTW. Ratzinger( and anybody else in the US sorry to the people outside of the US) if you need a source for certified organic smokable CBD flower send me a PM and we can discuss.

Source: I am a Organic Farmer and we grow smokable hemp.

[ExomatrixTV]

12 of the Biggest Myths (https://www.alternet.org/2014/05/12-biggest-myths-about-marijuana-debunked/) About Marijuana Debunked

Weed is not more dangerous than alcohol
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US Rep. at Pot Hearing: 'People Don't Smoke Marijuana and Beat Up Their Wives'
wOU_3wsc35s
Marijuana Myths go up in Smoke!
Ji3ZoAVtrkQ

[Chester]

Working at a psychiatrist office for some years, I can confirm that we have plenty of patients with psychosis induced by marijuana. The sad thing is that most of them are teenagers. My humble opinion through experience from friends and patients, is that the use of marijuana tends to make individuals lose the ability of being conscious in the spiritual sense. As Eckhart Tolle would put, it puts them in a euphoric state which is below the mind and not above it. It might make you feel much calmer or even provide lower astral experiences. However not because of a raised awareness but from its dip in a lower state of consciousness.
It's the bliss of ignorance effect which also seems to create energetic "holes" because of the lowering of consciousness.

When I woke up this morning and, after a cup of coffee, decided to look at PA and the thread I started last night, I saw all these responses, many questions and am compelled to try and respond back. To save on time I will simply address all I can.

Here goes -

Again, I want to emphasize, I am not only not against marijuana, I am pro-marijuana but with a major caveat I will address in another post.

Also, I want to make clear, my views and opinions are not solely driven by my experiences. After I had the last episode (the one where I was convinced it was marijuana induced – which I will also explain in a later post), I have put in hundreds of hours of research into the possibility there might be a connection between marijuana and psychosis. I was amazed when I found there’s a great deal of research that led to the conclusion there is this connection and that the research dates back over a century.

I will strive to make a post or two citing many of the easily verifiable sources for all of this soon, but I also want to state again and will continue to emphasize something I am strongly against… and that is the demonization of marijuana. I am of the firm opinion you are not ever going to be able to put the cork back in the bottle with regards to marijuana such that we somehow eradicate it and/or make it so illegal and so culturally unacceptable, that the world will one day find itself without marijuana. If we add the increasing evidence of positive medical uses of marijuana (especially the non-psychoactive compound, CBD) and we remember that hemp has been in high use for millennia and in all sorts of practical ways, cannabis is here to stay.

The few who have experienced a dangerously negative experience with marijuana (and we are actually talking about THC and also talking about high percentages of THC and/or large consumption of THC), are truly a very tiny percentage of the population. Yet also, and this is well documented in numerous studies, those who smoke marijuana and to the extent they do so, especially if they begin in their teenage years, experience lower IQs. Some studies suggest the impact of heavy usage starting from an early age decreases IQ permanently. In addition, studies show a marked negative impact in relation to emotional development… again, more so if the user begins in their teens and to a greater degree the earlier they start using. Again, this is well documented. And though I am just one person, all of that seems to have happened to me.

I didn’t like being informed of this information. Not because it seemed true for myself, but because all three of my sons are “wake and bakers” and each struggle with their lives in ways I am certain that without marijuana ever entering their lives, each would not have the struggles they face today. My guilt as to my own example, though I had large stretches of sobriety once they were born, is something I always have to live with.

In post #2 – ZenBaller, your experience supports the claim that the younger folks are much more vulnerable to the psychosis possibility. That’s proven in studies. In addition, and with regard to my own experience of ten bona-fide psychosis episodes, by the time I was 32 years old, I had emerged grounded again from seven of these dark episodes. The first was when I was 19. So I had seven in 13 years and only 3 in the next twenty two years. My research found this same pattern widespread.

I began in my teens having used marijuana for the first time when I was 15. And within a month of trying marijuana, I became a daily user that started in the morning. We are called “wake and bakers” and make up about 20% of the group that have used marijuana once or more and that group hovers around 50% in the US. So my own experience places me in an ever shrinking sub group within sub groups.

I would like to comment about this particular statement within your post – “…the use of marijuana tends to make individuals lose the ability of being conscious in the spiritual sense.” It seems that the vast majority of users could appear this way. Yet, my experience with others suggests otherwise. This may be a result of the type of folks I would socialize with and so I emphasize my opinion here is based on personal experience only and is not meant to suggest broad based fact. But regarding Tolle's statement, studies do not address this as sadly, science places no value on spirituality. Just like my experiences inform my opinion, what Tolle stated is also just opinion. In my experience, I found that marijuana smokers were far more open minded and exploratory with regards to spiritual possibilities. Far more of my friends and associates who used marijuana (and many of these moved on in their lives and eventually left marijuana behind) were noticeably more spiritually open to the folks I encountered that never touched substances with the exception of those who were religious. But in most of the cases where folks appear religious, most of them remained in the realm of exoteric, dogmatically driven religion where few ventured into the esoteric, mystical explorations found in the heart of all traditions/religions. Note my experience is rooted in the West and at a time where western culture was moving away from dogmatic religion (an ongoing trend).

So in summary, with regards to Eckhart Tolle’s comment I understand to his mind this appears true, but what he seems not to consider is that there are masses of humanity who are stuck in a state way below ‘the mind’ with regards to higher mind exploration (consciousness). Perhaps the current structure and dynamic of our world is experienced as a prison to some and thus their attempt to escape that prison can be experienced via drugs. Within the vast smorgasbord of drug options are those that can lead to shamanic type experiences and my opinion is that marijuana is not only one of them, but the most prevalent one.

Marijuana does not exist in a vacuum. And often you find that folks who experiment with (and in some cases become heavy users of) marijuana, also experiment with other substances, some of the hallucinogenic variety and again I point to shamanic journeying. So, if we separate out the vulnerable with regards to psychosis from the rest, there’s a small portion of those who experiment with things like mushrooms, DMT, LSD, etc. who, if they are fortunate to limit their experimentation to this grouping (meaning successfully avoid heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, and abusive alcohol consumption), they sometimes find themselves in a position to do battle with ‘the darker regions’ often explored from that type of experimentation and emerge grounded enough, whole enough to reach into that higher level of spiritual exploration (often leaving behind the no longer needed 'accelerant' - mind expanding plants, mushrooms, etc.)

My opinion is this is a route fraught with risk. Yet, in my own case, I sense I may never have accessed spiritual exploration if it had not been for my usage of marijuana. Please, do not interpret that last statement to suggest others should touch any of this stuff. My opinion about the risks stands. There appears to be far more negative results, often permanently negative by taking this route in that the “spiritual reality” encountered is of the negative variety, sometimes never fully escaped if escaped at all.

It seems to me far too many people are satisfied with their lives without ever opening to any real higher states of consciousness. In cases where those who, for whatever reasons, take the risks by trying something like marijuana and then open themselves up to things which, if they are able to stay above the regions of darkness or, as is more often the case, dip down into the regions of darkness and then, in a reasonable percentage of cases where this has occurred, emerge from that darkness into a place of greater awareness and open mindedness to realms of consciousness… they, at the end of the day, find themselves having attained a relationship with spirituality far beyond otherwise.

My gut tells me that those who do are a small percentage of the larger group of experimenters. And so, what of that larger portion? Well again, my libertarian views inform my opinion… life is filled with risks but our freedom to take such risks should be protected. But then there’s the small portion of this larger sub-group who end up in such a bad state they harm others or themselves. And it is this small portion the “against legalization” forces use as the reason for their stance. I have much more to share with regards to the whole thing – “legalization.”

[RogeRio]

I think we could approach the issue by thinking about drug control, and the money involved in it, because so many drugs were developed based on substances produced by plants.

Many substances considered harmful are used in medicine through controlled doses, based on the idea that the difference between poison and medicine is the dosage used, so even excess water can harm the body, also too much food.

Some time ago, I saw a study that concluded that the only part affected by continued use of THC is memory loss, which only happens when you use it a lot, but even so, when the effect of THC pass, the memory functions goes back to normal. This was measured by brain tomography in several people, and this memory loss was considered only as a transient side effect.

Particularly, what I experienced and also saw happen with several others, was a crisis of laughter.

Specifically, what is known here in my country is as follows:


In the early decades of the twentieth century, marijuana was released, although many people viewed it with bad eyes. In the US, the smokers were the increasingly numerous mexicans. In much of the West, smoking weed was relegated to marginalized classes and viewed with dislike for the middle class.

Few people knew, however, that the same plant that supplied the lower classes with smoke had enormous economic importance. Dozens of medicines - from cough syrups to sleeping pills - contained cannabis. Almost all paper production used hemp fiber from the stem of the cannabis as its raw material. The cloth industry also relied on cannabis - hemp cloth was widespread, especially for making ropes, sails, fishing nets and other products that required a very tough material. Ford was developing fuels and plastics made from cannabis seed oil. Hemp plantations took over huge areas in Europe and the United States.

In 1920, under pressure from protestant religious groups, the US enacted a ban on the production and marketing of alcoholic beverages. It was Prohibition, which lasted until 1933. That's when Henry Anslinger came into American public life - suppressing the Bahamas rum traffic. It was there, too, that weed came into the lives of many people.

Anslinger was promoted to head of the Foreign Control Division of the Prohibition Committee and his task was to handle beverage smuggling. It was at this time that he realized the antipathy against marijuana that was taking over the nation, which worsened greatly with the 1929 stock market crash. In the south of the country, it was rumored that the drug gave mexicans superhuman strength, which would be an unfair advantage in the scramble for scarce jobs. Added to this were hints that the drug induced promiscuous sex. Based on these rumors, several states began banning the substance, and by that time marijuana became the drug of choice for jazz musicians, who claimed to be more creative after smoking.

Anslinger clung tightly to the prohibitionist flag, struggled to spread the anti-marijuana myths, and in 1930, when the government, concerned about cocaine and opium, created the Federal Bureau of Narcotics office to deal with drugs, he articulated to head it. But the crusade was unlikely to be motivated solely by the thirst for power, as Anslinger was married to the niece of Andrew Mellon, owner of the oil giant Gulf Oil and a major investor of the equally giant DuPont.

"Du Pont was largely responsible for orchestrating the destruction of the hemp industry" says writer Jack Herer in his book "The Emperor Wears No Clothes". In the 1920, the company was developing various petroleum products: fuel additives, plastics, synthetic fibers such as nylon, and chemical processes for making paper made from wood. These products had one thing in common: they competed in the market with hemp.

It would be a considerable boost to the burgeoning synthetic industry if the huge cannabis crops were destroyed, removing hemp fiber and seed oil from the market. "Marijuana has been banned by economic interests, especially to open the natural fiber market to nylon," said lawyer Wálter Maierovitch, a drug trafficking expert and former national drug secretary.

Anslinger had a powerful ally in the marijuana war: William Randolph Hearst, owner of a huge newspaper network. Hearst was the most influential person in the US. Millionaire ran his companies from a monumental castle in California, where he entertained Hollywood performers for a walk around the private zoo or laps in the indoor pool adorned with Greek statues. It was in it that Orson Welles was inspired to create the protagonist of the movie Citizen Kane. Hearst knowingly hated mexicans. Part of this hatred may have been due to the fact that during the 1910 mexican revolution, Pancho Villa's troops (who, incidentally, made frequent use of marijuana) expropriated their enormous property. Yes, Hearst owned land and used it to plant eucalyptus and other trees to produce paper. That is, he was also interested in the destruction of american marijuana - taking with it the hemp paper industry.

Hearst began an intense campaign against marijuana in the 1930. Their newspapers went on to publish repeated drug stories, sometimes stating that marijuana caused mexicans to rape white women, others reporting that 60 percent of crimes were committed under the influence of drugs (a figure taken from nowhere). At that time, the story emerged that smoking kills neurons, a myth repeated to this day. It was Hearst who, if not invented, at least popularized the name marijuana (he wanted a word that sounded very hispanic, to allow direct association between the drug and the mexicans). Anslinger was a constant presence in Hearst's newspapers, where he told his horror stories. Public opinion was terrified. In 1937, Anslinger went to Congress to say that under the influence of marijuana, "some people embark on delirious rage and commit violent crimes."

The congressmen voted to ban the cultivation, sale and use of cannabis, disregarding polls that the substance was safe. Not only the drug, but the plant was forbidden. Man simply disallowed the right of the Cannabis sativa species to exist.

Anslinger has also acted internationally. He set up a network of spies and attended meetings of the UN predecessor League of Nations, proposing increasingly harsh treaties to curb international trafficking. It also began to find leaders from various countries and bring to them the same terrifying arguments that worked with the americans. It was not difficult to convince governments adopted federal anti-marijuana laws.

"Drug prohibition serves governments because it is a form of social control of minorities". It works like this: marijuana is mexican stuff, mexicans are a nagging class. “Because you can't ban someone from being mexican, you prohibit something that is typical of that ethnicity”. This way you can keep all mexicans under control - they will always be threatened with jail. That's why the marijuana ban was so successful in the world.

The ban became a form of international control by the US, especially after 1961, when a UN convention ruled that drugs were bad for the health and well-being of humanity, and therefore coordinated action was needed. to curb their use. "This made room for US military interventions. It has become an opportune pretext for americans to enter other countries and pursue their economic interests."

A worldwide structure was set up to keep drugs illegal, marijuana among them. A year later, in 1962, President John Kennedy fired Anslinger - no less than 32 years ahead of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics office. But prohibitions and economic interests have remained.

[Gemma13]

I know loads of people that have smoked pot for years and are okay with it. Sadly I’ve witnessed a family member in full blown drug induced schizophrenia from smoking marijuana. It’s horrific. You have my deepest compassion Sammy for having experienced the negative side effects as well as witnessing others and having to struggle with support and coping mechanisms.

I agree with the possibility of “demonic” entry/experience. Descriptions of what my stepson was experiencing and “fighting off” fit the criteria and when I was present during episodes a parasitic presence was visceral.

It was also like there was a rip in the fabric of this reality and he was conscious of another reality simultaneously ~ couldn’t understand why we couldn’t see what he was seeing. All of it led to overwhelming confusion and frustration and then violent rage from the entrapment.

[Frankie Pancakes]

Some article headlines from Sott.net

Is schizophrenia an autoimmune disease?
https://www.sott.net/article/259719-Is-schizophrenia-an-autoimmune-disease

How Marijuana May Drive the Brain into Psychosis
https://www.sott.net/article/239812-How-Marijuana-May-Drive-the-Brain-into-Psychosis

Cannabis CBD extract helps reset brain function in psychosis
https://www.sott.net/article/394701-Cannabis-CBD-extract-helps-reset-brain-function-in-psychosis

Psychosis in teens may be linked to an unlikely culprit: air pollution
https://www.sott.net/article/410046-Psychosis-in-teens-may-be-linked-to-an-unlikely-culprit-air-pollution

Schizophrenia and Gluten Sensitivity - Is There a Connection?
https://www.sott.net/article/244953-Schizophrenia-and-Gluten-Sensitivity-Is-There-a-Connection

Sleep deprivation leads to schizophrenia symptoms
https://www.sott.net/article/281535-Sleep-deprivation-leads-to-schizophrenia-symptoms

Harvard researchers say certain ADHD medications may increase risk of psychosis
https://www.sott.net/article/414437-Harvard-researchers-say-certain-ADHD-medications-may-increase-risk-of-psychosis

Celiac psychosis: Can wheat make you crazy?
https://www.sott.net/article/321649-Celiac-psychosis-Can-wheat-make-you-crazy

So it may be possible there are many contributing factors for psychosis and schizophrenia. Imagine if you are a teen on ADD drugs, living in a highly polluted city, working at night, eating wheat bread, tired, high on pot with a compromised autoimmune system.

[shaberon]

If I am able, because it’s difficult to talk about, I will share more. But my “war stories” are not why I created this thread. The reason for creating this thread is to explore the likelihood (only my opinion) that what may lie at the heart of “mental illnesses” like schizophrenia and extreme bipolar situations, both which often lead to full blown psychosis events, is not just some “chemical imbalance” situation… no, no – its demonic attention, demonic intrusion.



If "you" are not in control of your mind or body, who is?

I would say there is a power in man which when increased, can only lead to illumination or to demons. Most people are not usually powerful enough for it to really do anything. But if it works, the same thing will cause "single eye illumination", which is certainly a good feeling, or, it will burst into thousand of fragments throughout the body and feels bad and nightmares come to life. Really, the same power is either bliss or schizophrenia, depending on how the electricity flows.

It is likely to fail if for any reason you fail to safeguard it.

So I think we wind up with a lot of people who are partially possessed.

You can't really blame the demon, in fact I have a healthy degree of respect for them. It's a matter of control. Those are the options, control them, or suffer the consequences.

I guess there is a normal degree of disturbed emotion or mental imbalance that is an understandable response to certain stimuli. It's got a pressure point like a balloon that eventually bursts. In those situations you can "see" demons stalking people, but they are just the energy of it, and mostly it is human free will that beckons them. My life consists of trying to make this work right, and it is not easy, since demonic influence is welcome nearly everywhere. Not trying to say I'm not heavily damaged. Just interested in making the control factor work.

Full possession is relatively rare, but I would agree that obsession and partial possession are common.

[Chester]

Hi Sam, Thanks for sharing...I hear what a struggle this was for you. I understand how out of this world intense this state is...and experiencing it 10x is massive. I'd be curious to know your thoughts as to whether this would be different if we didn't live in such a harsh, unsupportive, and medicalized society. As I wrote about in Jump in the Blue, I was hospitalized with what the doctors labeled psychosis. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that if I had had wise people around me who understood the cosmic elements as well as the process, who could have held safe space for me and allowed me to go through the journey... i may have come out the otherside without need for medical intervention. I do not know because I was forceable strapped down and medicated...and when i awoke was back in normal reality.
What are your thoughts on Paul Levi's work?

Item by item… “I'd be curious to know your thoughts as to whether this would be different if we didn't live in such a harsh, unsupportive, and medicalized society.”
I could write pages and pages on this very question. The short answer though is, “Of course.” But having said that, in my own experience, the emergence of the psychosis still would have happened. I am jumping ahead here a bit, but I am increasingly coming to the theoretical idea that long term heavy use of potent (high THC percentage) marijuana causes metabolic reactions that exacerbate and/or accelerate what eventually becomes a psychosis. Let me further clarify, I do not conclude THC causes this. I conclude that my form of ingestion (smoking it in a bong) and how that smoke and all the smoke brought into my system, eventually ignited the psychosis. The THC is the psychoactive compound that induced the shamanic journey experience. By combining the effects of “the high” with the reality of my life (a challenging one), it was easy for me to become addicted.

So to all readers, please, see the points I am making with regards to my own (and only my own) personal experience combined with my extensive research and some of the theories I have tied into the whole matter. What if (and this is my current view) I presented a unique combination of psychological vulnerability and physiological vulnerability whereby when I tried marijuana and then became immediately addicted, my form of ingestion and that which I ingested through that form set of a series of physiological/psychological/psychospiritual changes whereby that doorway to the dark forces flew wide open. Each psychosis always began with a change where I started having psychic experiences. In time, paranoia would emerge.

When I would begin to experience an increase in the two, that’s when the psychosis experience would begin. The time it took for the first psychic experiences to become full blown psychosis was short in my youngest days – maybe a month or two. But as I got older, the time frame expanded. By the time I had my 8th experience (1989) it took several months and in fact, was one of the only two times I did not end up in a psychiatric facility).

My tenth (and last experience) was the most important experience of them all. For one, I had not used marijuana in the form of wake and bake for eleven years. In addition, for the full two years prior I had not touched any other substance including alcohol. In fact, for five months prior to my re-entry into the use of marijuana, I was completely without any substance of any kind. Yet when I found myself once again trying marijuana (August of 2010 and one month short of my 53rd birthday), I started daily use which, within a few weeks became the daily, all day routine. Why did I do this? Because that mid-August day when I tried marijuana again, I went into an amazing state of what I call hyper-quantum synchronicity (psychic). That type of experience is so incredible and so beyond mundane, boring, waking state five sense reality, that I instantly went back to daily use. It took 15 months for the paranoia to begin. Once that began, it took less than two months for a full-blown psychosis to emerge.

What is vitally important to me and why I created this thread must be re-emphasized. IMO we best not lose sight of how I have characterized the psychosis experience – essentially that it opens the door (or pushes the already open door even more open) to demonic intrusion. THAT is the reason I created this thread.

“As I wrote about in Jump in the Blue, I was hospitalized with what the doctors labeled psychosis. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that if I had had wise people around me who understood the cosmic elements as well as the process, who could have held safe space for me and allowed me to go through the journey... i may have come out the otherside without need for medical intervention.”

I agree 100%. Psychosis, however it comes about… whatever might be the underlying factors and/or causes, if understood to be what (at least to me) it seems to be… an opening of a doorway to higher zones within the Grand Reality - all maya, all illusion to some yet to those like myself who have experienced psychosis, especially dark psychosis, as much as I want to see it as maya, the fact of my experience suggests it as all too ‘real’ at the experiential levels of our being. Psychosis all too often leads to self harm and/or the harm of others. Yet there are those who experience states that seem much the same as the states where dark psychosis emerges whereby these states produce incredibly positive experiences.

And so, my question has been, is it the state that is at fault? Or is it the state of affairs of one’s current reality experience and the state of affairs of one’s spiritual, mental, emotional well being at the time they enter these states that informs the experience? I would put my money on, “Yes.”

Our world appears to me to be almost completely insane. My individual state was screwed up from my earliest memories and though I could point to circumstances that some would consider as the reason, but in all honesty, from the age of six years old onwards, I was a very disturbed kid. So by the time I had my first real psychotic break (age 19), I was ripe for the experience to be a dark one. And the treatment I found myself having to endure (the psyche facilities) had no clue how to deal with me. Interestingly, I was diagnosed bi-polar. But after I came down from the raging psychosis, the drug they used to bring me down was discontinued. And no other medication was used. I returned to the five-sense world but never forgot the details of the psychic experiences that filled the episode. As of that experience, I was convinced there was more to reality than the mundane, material, five-sense world, despite what mainstream science was so strongly pushing.

“I do not know because I was forceably strapped down and medicated...and when i awoke was back in normal reality.”

That’s sad to read. I was fortunate as they withdrew the “anti-psychosis” medication quickly and so I emerged slowly and thus had continued to experience psi. And the good thing for me was that I felt safe and so the paranoia went away. But also, as the days marched on, that psychic stuff all diminished and indeed I found myself once again in the five-sense world. But also, it felt like a prison and I never forgot the experience of an expanded reality. In fact, that was what always enticed me back into use.

Lastly, What are your thoughts on Paul Levi's work? I understand the views he holds and why he holds them.

This quote attributed to Levy seems to some his view and concerns up –

“Wetiko psychosis is at the very root of humanity's inhumanity to itself in all its various forms. As a species, we need to step into and participate in our own spiritual and psychological evolution, which means that we must focus our attention on and contemplate this most important topic before this virulent madness destroys us.”

He combines two words – Wetiko and psychosis. From my understanding, Wetiko (described here (https://exploringyourmind.com/wetiko-virus-selfishness-native-americans/)) - suggests a grander, collective psychosis albeit that it manifests within individuals. If ever something like this may actually be “truth” this may very well be it. This virus is a "mind virus" and the infection stems from "evil spirits" (demonic entities in my vernacular). When I consider the plethora of reported individual experiences of demonic intrusion while considering how many have gone unreported combined with my view as to the state of affairs on Earth today, it would be no surprise to me there’s accuracy in suggesting this is a virus of the mind in the whole planet is infected. And that what we are facing is a mass psychosis. And that this is a mass demonic invasion.

From the article –

“According to Native Americans, Wetiko is an evil spirit that invades human minds. It’s a “virus” of selfishness.”

And

“…we live in an era where most psycho-social phenomena proves the existence of a “virus” of selfishness.”

Levy offers a solution, shadow work, a clearly effective path to take. It is one of the tools in my own arsenal. Emphasis, one of many. And I have a long, long way to go in this regard.

My opinion with regards to solution is that it all must emanate from the individual yet, practitioners of "evil spirit removal" can certainly play a vital role, what is most greatly needed is a complete opening of the mind of the masses of humanity that what we are dealing with is an invasion of that which is not easily reconcilable to our five sense, material realm but ever so powerful as to its influence, its impact. And that we need to move away from argument between us as to whether or not demonic intrusion is "real" and for those who are open to the idea it is indeed "real" need to avoid argument as to whose religious paradigm is most right about the matter as this is an exact result of the very demonic intrusion.

[rgray222]

the use of marijuana tends to make individuals lose the ability of being conscious in the spiritual sense. As Eckhart Tolle would put, it puts them in a euphoric state which is below the mind and not above it.

What a profound and accurate statement. Almost always overlooked in the discussion about 'any' mind-altering substances. The politics (as it always does) misdirects people from searching the information that is true and beneficial.

[Chester]

One of the great mistakes people make whether they are pro or con marijuana, is what is called “confirmation bias.” I have already read some posts in this thread that appear to be heavily influenced by confirmation bias.

The fact is that there are dozens of studies that have been conducted without having any pre-determined outcome desire. Because the various things studied and the results obtained are so wide ranging, there’s all sorts of results which can suggest one or more positives about all aspects of marijuana and studies that suggest negative results pointing to one or more aspects of marijuana but there are also studies that point to both positive and negative aspects of marijuana.

As I warned in the OP, if a reader has already picked a side (much like the dynamic we find with regards to the political situation in the US today), the reader risks missing information they might otherwise benefit from opening their mind to or worse, waste their time in presenting a one sided opinion that borders imposition of truth using third party generated information sources that have cherry picked their information (much of it uncorroborated) to defend their view – doing so in a way that degrades this discussion into an argument. Despite my warning, this has emerged on this thread, a thread I placed into the forum where my own recover from my own addictions would never have occurred without.

So again, I do not view marijuana as “bad.” I believe marijuana has all sorts of benefits for different folks in specific circumstances. I also believe (and know from personal experience and concerted research efforts) that marijuana can be unacceptably risky for a small portion of the human population, risks that can result in psychosis, significant demonically generated thoughts that lead to actions taken by the afflicted that all too often result in self harm and harm to others.


Oh, the lower like bottom grade THC content plants that have the highest CBD that I like both the flavor and true relief from are Painkiller XL strain, and Fast Eddie strain. Both of these were bought local and have 6% THC which is basically not going to be even noticed by an old stoner from the 50's in two or three hits in the morning. The pain relief and nausea relief is truly remarkable. I also use the CBD drops which control upset stomach quite a bit and highly recommend them. Just in case anyone was wondering. You can add that to your study I guess. There are probably other strains I could try but that is the two local varieties they offered me based on my treatment plan which was mapped out by like five different specialists and none of them objected to the pot, most highly suggested I have it on hand and one flat out admitted they could not provide anything better.

This is why so much additional research should continue regarding marijuana. And just because my opinion is that additional research should be done does not mean my opinion holds that until this research is done, medical marijuana and recreational marijuana should be illegal. Again I am a strong libertarian on this matter.

[Caliban]

Sammy, I have a lot of respect and sympathy for your experiences, you've been through a lot and I think, I know now, that you see marijuana as being central to your difficulties. What I think (humbly said) and I think what you're pointing to, is that the ganja served to aggrandize already existing cracks in your relationship to your reality and your self.

You mention the MJ experience after you'd stopped for a while being unbelievable, synchronistic and life changing. Then you went into an every day/all day routine of use. You see, I would stop right there: that's not use anymore, that's simply Abuse. Then that eventually led you to what you call "full-blown psychosis" and perhaps some kind of demonic encounter.

As I said in my post above, MJ is not something to take lightly. It demands respect and willingness to learn from its lessons. Was it the MJ by itself that opened you to mental maladies? Or the anxiety, paranoia, etc., that you exposed yourself to by abusing the plant? Let's say you fasted for 30 days or you only ate mushrooms (non-drug) or you exercised six hours a day. Those excessive actions too might open you to frightening altered states of mind, perhaps leading one to question one's sanity.

MJ addiction is real. It feels so good (sometimes) we want to do it today, tomorrow and the next day. Without a spiritual practice using MJ or any other entheogen (of which MJ is def one) you are on a treacherous path.

One more thing: I think people sometimes get scared when the MJ is very strong and it opens them to thoughts and intuitions they're not prepared for. I've seen it in myself. I once had a horrible feeling of being sliced away from all of creation, a speck of being in an endless universe. It was terrifying. But because I had some other understandings and inclinations, I could process it and see it as my innate existential anxiety at coming into this world again, seemingly alone. Ganja is a teacher. A healer. But we need to listen.

[Chester]

It also depends on the Marijuana you are taking:

Is it good old natural weed or hi potency Skunk line?
Skunk is a very, very strong drug and can be damaging to some straight off the bat.

Plus how many users have also miked other substances to become ill?

Marijuana is something to be used wisely as a mind opener as if given by a Shaman and not for fun or long term.
Been there done that.

Very well said.

[Mike]

thanks for the thread Sammy! as usual, i can feel you striving for complete honesty in every sentence. i really appreciate your thoughtfulness, and i'm thrilled to see you posting here again.

i consider your journey to be the hero's journey, in the sense that you've traveled to extremely dangerous areas most of us haven't been to and you've returned in one piece to articulate it for the rest of us. thank you for that.

i have close friends who are heavy weed smokers. they always try to get me to smoke with them, which i've always found odd. i'm a beer drinker, and it's never mattered to me either way whether the people around me are drinking or not; plus, that's just less beer for me if i'm sharing it.

anyway, i've never been able to take more than one hit off a blunt. this brings my friend mike - my weed smoking buddy - great amusement...and till this day he still calls me "Uno":). hasn't called me mike in ages. not once. it's Uno.

any more than one hit, and i'll likely fall asleep. weed makes me lethargic mostly. and even though it has a reputation for causing relaxation, it tends to make my heart thump thump in my chest.

very quickly, there's an example of weed affecting 2 people in very different ways. for my friend mike, who is very high strung, it relaxes him. for me, a pretty laid back individual, it makes me lethargic and sleepy.

for our mutual friend, jeff, it has more of a sammy effect. i recall mike and jeff and i going to a movie once, and jeff suddenly disappearing. retracing our steps, we found him sitting on a bench in front of the theatre, white as a ghost, on a cell phone, begging his mother to come and pick him up. he'd smoked weed, something he almost never does, and it messed with him in a major way. he was hospitalized that night. but it must be said that jeff has a history of depression and anxiety and was taking various medications at the time.

i think it's likely that sammy and jeff are outliers. most people that smoke weed will either have a pleasant high, a giddiness, a sense of relaxation and mild euphoria, or like me...merely tiredness and lethargy.

in general, i don't think it's a dangerous substance. probably less harmful than beer. however, here's the thing: anyone who is casually using alcohol or weed on a daily or weekly basis - i'm including myself here - is doing some sort of psychic damage to themselves..which,while maybe unclear now, will certainly reveal itself later. i've discovered this the hard way. it sounds cliche, but this type of substance intake is merely masking symptoms..emotional and mental and maybe even spiritual that one just can't muster the courage to face. so the weed is just kicking the can down the road really. you'll have to face that fear or emotional wound (or whatever you're trying to hide from yourself) at some point, so you might as well do it now. the longer you wait, the harder and more traumatic it will be. take it from Uno.

[Mark]

I've been an on and off user of THC for 30 years. There have been years between uses sometimes. Marijuana, Hashish and, more recently and in interactions with Millennials, I've tried dabs a couple of times, which is a THC concentrate.

Potentially crazy-making. Not a fan, will never use that form of THC ingestion again.

One curious side effect of not using THC for long periods of time is that when you do, it is as you do indeed become another version of yourself. I find myself looking around at the world when the "high" sets in and my perception is one of, 'Oh, I'm back now. Finally. Why in the hell did I stop smoking for so long?'

In these instances, I can look back at the memories of when I was NOT smoking and the decisions I made and, without fail, my mental response is 'Omg, what a bad decision this was, that was, what was I thinking,' with the invariable thought arising, 'I am back now and everything is going to be alright.'

Does this mean that I am potentially schizophrenic? Quite possibly. I have had many psychic experiences in my life, from hearing voices to out of body experiences. Those of us who straddle that line or who have passed fully into an alternative state of being, being continuously immersed in the experiential reality of multidimensional perception, are perhaps liminal beings in a world where not everybody is that way or necessarily has that potential.

Plant teachers are spirits and marijuana is feminine. The way that it allows you to concentrate upon the ephemeral and the nuanced experience of the moment and the thought process can open the way to some very profound realizations, while also encouraging the kind of torpor commonly associated with weed. This passage, from Who is Cannibis (https://chacruna.net/who-is-cannabis/), captures the feeling associated with her arrival/return well:


I smoke very slowly: first set up my tray (which acts as an easily moveable, tiny altar), then a silent or spoken greeting in anticipation, a smoky breathe indrawn when I light up, a warm hello to the feeling that gently floods me, a big sigh, a lifting off of something from my physical frame. A large, gentle, lighter-than-air arm lightly embraces these weary shoulders; an opening happens. I may take a second toke. Then I feel her along my side, I feel her arm as she sits beside me. Little me, who feels as diminutive as a small girl next to her. The window in my mind opens to my beloved Big Sister. Here she is, I can count on her. She always shows up when I ask, she knows me; we are old companions. We chuckle from the joy of getting together again. I am so very grateful to have this beautiful, wise Big Sister in my life, she who helps me know what to take seriously and what to let go of. I feel so fully alive, in every cell. She is a gift from nature to us, a gift from the mystery itself.

[Chester]

So it may be possible there are many contributing factors for psychosis and schizophrenia. Imagine if you are a teen on ADD drugs, living in a highly polluted city, working at night, eating wheat bread, tired, high on pot with a compromised autoimmune system.

My opinion is that this is indeed the case. That is why I emphasized in so many posts that those like myself who suffered from marijuana induced psychosis likely had a proclivity that was in place where marijuana played the role of "the straw that broke the camels back." There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.

I believe my situation in this regard is extremely rare and is, in part, why I do not think marijuana (and other shamanic substances) should be illegal. Having said that, I cannot emphasize the import in being honest with yourself if you use and things go dark. One thing though that I strongly recommend is that until the brain reaches maturity (somewhere in the mid to late twenties noting this is supposed to be later for males), that use of marijuana should be avoided.

[Chester]

If I am able, because it’s difficult to talk about, I will share more. But my “war stories” are not why I created this thread. The reason for creating this thread is to explore the likelihood (only my opinion) that what may lie at the heart of “mental illnesses” like schizophrenia and extreme bipolar situations, both which often lead to full blown psychosis events, is not just some “chemical imbalance” situation… no, no – its demonic attention, demonic intrusion.



If "you" are not in control of your mind or body, who is?

I would say there is a power in man which when increased, can only lead to illumination or to demons. Most people are not usually powerful enough for it to really do anything. But if it works, the same thing will cause "single eye illumination", which is certainly a good feeling, or, it will burst into thousand of fragments throughout the body and feels bad and nightmares come to life. Really, the same power is either bliss or schizophrenia, depending on how the electricity flows.

It is likely to fail if for any reason you fail to safeguard it.

So I think we wind up with a lot of people who are partially possessed.

You can't really blame the demon, in fact I have a healthy degree of respect for them. It's a matter of control. Those are the options, control them, or suffer the consequences.

I guess there is a normal degree of disturbed emotion or mental imbalance that is an understandable response to certain stimuli. It's got a pressure point like a balloon that eventually bursts. In those situations you can "see" demons stalking people, but they are just the energy of it, and mostly it is human free will that beckons them. My life consists of trying to make this work right, and it is not easy, since demonic influence is welcome nearly everywhere. Not trying to say I'm not heavily damaged. Just interested in making the control factor work.

Full possession is relatively rare, but I would agree that obsession and partial possession are common.

Because I have been fortunate to rise above my challenge, (using metaphor) I stand today with my foot on the neck of the demonic intrusive forces... the forces I have experienced and which I seem to have unwittingly, through ignorance of the dynamic and through risky behavior, opened the door to since perhaps I was a child.

Interestingly though, I hold the view that I am 100% responsible. This has been stated on this forum in dozens of posts I have authored since 2012. No where in any post that I have authored suggests I blame demons and have gone out of my way to emphasize my view as to responsibility. But I have also found my view and approach is rare.

It's very difficult to convince another that ultimately they are responsible and my stance on that matter is that I could make that determination for myself (right or wrong) but I have no right to impose that view on another (right or wrong). What I do strongly suggest to those who have proven well enough to themselves that their unwanted experiences with that which they perceive are dark forces, demonic entities, evil aliens, parasitical EDs, etc. which are experienced in conjunction with marijuana use and/or are increased by usage of marijuana leave the stuff alone.

With regards to demonic intrusion (regardless of marijuana playing any role), how many people are able to consider their own role much less 100% full responsibility, especially in their early experiences with such forces? I say this in light of those who, unbeknownst to themselves find themselves in the very grips of demonic forces and find themselves acting as tools for such forces. Usually when folks like this start to suspect its demonic possession, they are so far gone it takes external intervention and even that has a "less than stellar" success rate. A whole huge post or two unto itself as to why.

I wonder if the stalker that my step-daughter and thus my wife and myself have been terrorized by would listen to what you are saying. (see this post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?108982-Requesting-New-Standardization.&p=1319957&viewfull=1#post1319957))

And having mentioned this again, just two days ago, my step-daughter was granted a Lifetime Protection Order by the State of Texas (which is not only lifetime but also applies to wherever she lives, works or goes to school and that means anywhere beyond the State of Texas). But also, a piece of paper won't stop a demonically possessed human being and we are well aware of that and thus, we have all (thanks to constitutionally protected rights) sought training for self protection for the day he is no longer incarcerated. In addition to the protective order, the individual has been banned from owning or possessing a firearm for the rest of his life. He can thank his facebook post for that one.

The felony stalking case (a criminal case) will be taken up in February. The prosecutor has told us we have a strong case and though the guy has a perfectly clean record, the danger he poses could (and likely will) result in a prison term for many years. Still, he will one day get out. Demons seems to have a knack for "never forgetting." We are ready.

[Sue (Ayt)]

There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.


Kudos, Sammy. If I may ask, is it a constant "battle" while abstaining? The stress of the constant vigilance appears to me to be so draining for so many. Have you discovered any tricks to make the cloud just dissipate?

It always kind of annoys me when I am asked "Do you drink?" or "Do you smoke pot?" It's like a double bind question to me. No, I am not an abstainer, but yes, I will have a couple glasses of wine or tokes in a relaxed setting, by choice. Perhaps it is motive that determines the extremes, ie relaxation, expansion, social connection, or escapism. And what I pick up as the key that throws off the balance to the extremes is usually Pain (with a capital P!) Whether physical pain, mental pain, psychic pain, spiritual pain. And right now, there is a whole lotta pain in this world.

PS - it is the pain I see that pains me. I try my best not to ever add to it.
:(

[Sunny-side-up]

So it may be possible there are many contributing factors for psychosis and schizophrenia. Imagine if you are a teen on ADD drugs, living in a highly polluted city, working at night, eating wheat bread, tired, high on pot with a compromised autoimmune system.

My opinion is that this is indeed the case. That is why I emphasized in so many posts that those like myself who suffered from marijuana induced psychosis likely had a proclivity that was in place where marijuana played the role of "the straw that broke the camels back." There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.

I believe my situation in this regard is extremely rare and is, in part, why I do not think marijuana (and other shamanic substances) should be illegal. Having said that, I cannot emphasize the import in being honest with yourself if you use and things go dark. One thing though that I strongly recommend is that until the brain reaches maturity (somewhere in the mid to late twenties noting this is supposed to be later for males), that use of marijuana should be avoided.

I hear and understand your sensible comment Sammy but people might also be missing the boat, and miss the mind opening fix for their maturer lives.
I deeply wish I hadn't drank so much alcohol and smoked tobacco in my younger years, deeply.
Having said that, there is no real comparison, 2 are out right poisons, the other (marijuana) is a natural mind companion when used at the right times, in the right amounts.

[Chester]

There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.


Kudos, Sammy. If I may ask, is it a constant "battle" while abstaining? The stress of the constant vigilance appears to me to be so draining for so many. Have you discovered any tricks to make the cloud just dissipate?

It always kind of annoys me when I am asked "Do you drink?" or "Do you smoke pot?" It's like a double bind question to me. No, I am not an abstainer, but yes, I will have a couple glasses of wine or tokes in a relaxed setting, by choice. Perhaps it is motive that determines the extremes, ie relaxation, expansion, social connection, or escapism. And what I pick up as the key that throws off the balance to the extremes is usually Pain (with a capital P!) Whether physical pain, mental pain, psychic pain, spiritual pain. And right now, there is a whole lotta pain in this world.

PS - it is the pain I see that pains me. I try my best not to ever add to it.
:(

I am so glad someone finally asked me (essentially), “What, this time, do you think is the secret to your abstinence?”

It is no constant battle. For example, after my eighth psychosis experience (one of the two I did not end up in a psychiatric facility), what I attribute to a.) emerging from the psychosis and b.) a decision a month or two after psychosis had disappeared is because I was faced with an extremely serious life situation (brought on in part due to my complete loss of reason while I was psychotic and actions that stemmed from that). Essentially, I found myself involved with a young girl who became pregnant. Something within me (what little real good I may have had within me) was shaken from the grips of the psychosis because of the call to fatherhood and familyhood. That was in September of 1989. I married on November 6, 1989 and almost all the psychosis had subsided, but my addiction to marijuana remained though I had difficulties finding it and/or affording it. So through an inner call to “do better” and a lessoning of the usage of marijuana, I found myself on Christmas morning feeling like I had a cold so I decided not to smoke it up *as was my normal daily morning routine). By lunchtime I started to feel a motivation to quit. By afternoon, I told my wife I was quitting. By that evening, I knew I was quitting. The next day, the compulsion was gone. I stayed 100% clean from of marijuana and of course, all other drugs including alcohol for over seven years.

Sadly, we lost our first baby (she miscarried at 4.5 months). But we went on to have three sons together. The sad story as to the downfall that led to the 9th psychosis was due to a meteroric rise in my professional life and eventually an entanglement with a psychologist who assured me I could grow out of my addictions. So I started back down the road with just a glass or two of wine now and then with a meal. In 1998 my wife started smoking weed (for her first time) with a few friends while I was out of town. Eventually this led to me starting up again. Incredibly she also ended up with serious “mental issues” and I have posted plenty about all that on this forum. IMO, we opened ourselves up to dark demonic intrusion and those who know the story (and are open minded to the phenomena) all fully agree.

But again, back the reason I am responding. In 1989, my abstinence was motivated by a strong desire to be a good father/husband. I held family sacred. I viewed my wife as the heart and soul of the family (as I view my current wife (the 2nd and last this lifetime). Sadly, though I fell, I was able to extricate myself from the dark forces (in 2001). My now ex-wife, was not and this was the ultimate reason for the divorce.

So now I must answer the same question in relation to the last event (August of 2010, throughout 2011 ending in January 2012 noting that all was good until November of 2011). Again, I was faced with a critical issue of loss of my wife (again, my second and still with me). She had reached the breaking point with the emergence of my psychosis. But the most critical reason I extricated myself from usage and the demonic intrusion and that meant usage of marijuana was because the depth of the dark experience this time almost ended in my death but also, because no other substance had I used for the prior almost two years. Yet also, because all the psi experiences (other than what always ended up being dark) were so incredible, so fulfilling, so wonderful and so, so beyond this mundane five sense world, I had never been able to experience without marijuana… after a month and a half of total despair and a complete lack of any sense of connectivity to something beyond… for the first time in my life, I began to experience that connectivity without marijuana. In fact, this not only emerged in my life experience as a sober individual, for the first time ever, I was able to manage the experiences so that my enthusiasm for more increased. And this has remained ever present in my life ever since.

All the above is purely anecdotal. I could believe that my experience is unique or extremely rare. I only share it in case one person who could benefit from hearing my story may be motivated to take steps towards a healthier life (rid of or protected from demonic intrusion). That’s all. In fact, I feel I don’t have answers for anyone else, I only have my story.

Demonic intrusion can come about via many doorways and combinations of doorways. Mine are many but marijuana was (and likely is) the final doorway. Its best I leave that door closed for the rest of my life. My loved ones say so, my wife requires it (made me promise if she dies before me I wont do it), in fact… my very best childhood friend who is still a daily user does not allow me (and has not allowed me since the 1989 episode) to touch marijuana in his presence and he never smokes in my presence. That is someone who has been involved in my life journey more than anyone on this Earth. He has good reason to hold his views having experienced several of my episodes first hand (one through 8).

[Chester]

So it may be possible there are many contributing factors for psychosis and schizophrenia. Imagine if you are a teen on ADD drugs, living in a highly polluted city, working at night, eating wheat bread, tired, high on pot with a compromised autoimmune system.

My opinion is that this is indeed the case. That is why I emphasized in so many posts that those like myself who suffered from marijuana induced psychosis likely had a proclivity that was in place where marijuana played the role of "the straw that broke the camels back." There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.

I believe my situation in this regard is extremely rare and is, in part, why I do not think marijuana (and other shamanic substances) should be illegal. Having said that, I cannot emphasize the import in being honest with yourself if you use and things go dark. One thing though that I strongly recommend is that until the brain reaches maturity (somewhere in the mid to late twenties noting this is supposed to be later for males), that use of marijuana should be avoided.

I hear and understand your sensible comment Sammy but people might also be missing the boat, and miss the mind opening fix for their maturer lives.
I deeply wish I hadn't drank so much alcohol and smoked tobacco in my younger years, deeply.
Having said that, there is no real comparison, 2 are out right poisons, the other (marijuana) is a natural mind companion when used at the right times, in the right amounts.

I agree with you with regard to perhaps 95% or more of the population. That is why I emphasized many times on this thread I do not demonize marijuana. I stress my lifelong experience with marijuana has been an exception.

In my case, my issues with addiction and my experience with marijuana induced psychosis should preclude considerations that I should indulge in thoughts that marijuana could be a wonderful fix for something or other in my maturer life. We are talking THC here, not CBD.

It was that very consideration which led to episode 9 (2001) and episode 10 (2011/12). So I am am not on board with suggesting to another who has experienced psychosis where marijuana was involved in the picture... "Hey, grow up a little... and when you do, you'll be able to partake in marijuana and experience all sorts of psychological and/or psychospiritual benefits." Instead I think the best advice is... explore the depths of the nature and science of being without needing substances to do so, especially marijuana. In addition, when one has those experiences (as I now do) they hold a much more real quality to them than they ever did when stimulated by substances.

My motto now is, clean body, clean spirit, clean mind and emotions are foundational to spiritual clarity at a level that I'm most capable of obtaining (noting I feel I have much further to go, in fact, hopefully, as long as my soul desires).

[Chester]

to Caliban - Yes, I humbly agree... the cracks were there. Marijuana swung the door wide open. Thanks for your post.

to Uno... I know several "uno's" I also know several wake and bakers who, though a little foggy at times, live a functional, harmless life where they claim they are happy and love weed. I, sadly, know my oldest son whose had four episodes (age 28) and been in a half dozen psyche facilities (two of the episodes involved more than one facility) which sadly paralleled my own experience in that marijuana seemed to be the critical factor in full blown psychosis onset. Interestingly though, he is just like I was after the first 6 episodes - convinced it was something else. In fact, I had yet to consider the psychosis events as "bad" much less demonically intrusive despite all the hell I caused others and myself. Unfortunately the seventh involved a serious "self harm" event. I am terribly embarrassed to even speak about it... some members (and former members know the story). I just want you to know, Mike, that though we have never met, I have, for a long time, felt a strong affinity to you and I hope you don't mind me sharing that. I thank you for your post.

Rahkyt, thank you as well for a wonderfully worded post. That is such a talent you have with words and I have read so many of your posts for years. Thanks for opening up about your experiences related to this thread's content.

There are others who posted on this page and on page one (I am set on 20 posts per page) that I wish to thank and perhaps folks can forgive my monster posts, driven by some need to get it on 'digital paper'... hopefully it may be helpful to at least one other.

[Chester]

To ExomatrixTV - I want to thank you for all your posts all over this forum which you have posted over the years. You may have read in some of my posts that I had lived on the island of Curaçao for almost a decade of my life. For folks who don't know, the Dutch sometimes refer to the islands of the former Netherlands Antilles as "the Dutch Hawaii."

I will never forget all the flight stops I made through Amsterdam (Schiphol). One time (in 2009) I was en route to Hong Kong ans so I flew from Panama to Schiphol and stayed at the airport hotel that night for one purpose and one purpose only - to go into town and buy (and smoke) what my research at that time had said was the strongest marijuana in Amsterdam. On my trip back to the airport, I completely blew past the stop at Schiphol. I remember the train finally stopping and just sitting there. I got out and saw I was at the end of the line. Trying to get back on, I was required to buy a new ticket! haha. I almost missed the stop the second time too!

While living in Curaçao sometime around year 2000, a friend sold me a pound of what he said was weed smuggled in from Holland. The name was Top 44. A year later and only 11 days after I ran out of that pound, he somehow came up with another of the same breed, Top 44. That breed was instrumental in what eventually became my eighth psychosis.

I also recall in the spring of 2000 I had to take a trip from Curaçao to Bangkok (again through Schiphol) which lasted almost two weeks. Because the folks I was involved with were of the type that marijuana was a complete no-no, I had to abstain for that long stretch. So on the return flight I scheduled a ten hour layover where I got a room at the Krasnapolsky knowing the hotel well in that it borders "the red light district" filled with "coffee shops" - (in Amsterdam, a "coffee shop" usually has menus offering all sorts of strains of marijuana). So just after arriving I went on a search and obtained what I needed and proceeded to roll "a fat one" where I parked my butt on a bench located between the hotel entrance and that tall, white obelisk. In about 15 minutes, I was in another world. I was suddenly one with everything and began to focus on several pigeons running around. I then focused on one particular pigeon about 10 feet away that was facing at 90 degrees while looking straight ahead. I then felt the urge to speak to the bird telepathically with a salutation. At that moment, the bird twisted its head on its bird like swivel and looked straight at me. I concluded that the bird was God. I was elated I finally met God.

When I arrived back in Curaçao about 20 hours later, the first thing I told my then wife was, "Honey... I met God. And God is a pigeon that hangs at the Dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam_Square#/media/File:Dam_Amsterdam_2005.jpg) in Amsterdam." Of course, today I view the experience as one of many delusional marijuana experiences but understand, what I am calling delusional was the conclusion I drew. What was not was the experience. It seemed to me the bird certainly knew I was focusing on it and speaking to it telepathically. But who knows?

[Chester]

Just after posting the above post ending with the story of the bird, my wife and I go to the grocery store. When we got there and exited the car, we observed a scene we have never experienced here before - the parking lot was inundated with a zillion birds. I pulled out the camera to video it -

UOW6whI5BQE

We then went and did our shopping and when we came out, there were more and they were louder. Near the car I commented to a lady who, as she neared, I could hear her talking about them to the friend she was with. You can hear our brief communication... that this was quite unusual was not an exaggeration and the passer by's comments confirm this.

MJ0Jqczg4Yc

Make sure you (a reader) understands, I don't conclude anything from this... this is normal life for me ever since 2012... a constant stream of unusual synchronicities. For me, this just makes life more fun. But for someone caught in the grips of a psychosis, a synchronicity like this can have a much different and far darker impact.

For those old enough to remember...

hplpQt424Ls

[Richard S.]

Now I don't even buy the heavy THC stuff. I get the high CBD and cancer and pain fighting effects when I need it and it's nice to know it's available but for instant relief nothing beats the stuff they provide for the burning and general feeling of depression you get from just dealing with it daily as they light you up more and more each day.

I do think there are some key words here, high CBD, not THC...

[Richard S.]

Oh, the lower like bottom grade THC content plants that have the highest CBD that I like both the flavor and true relief from are Painkiller XL strain, and Fast Eddie strain. Both of these were bought local and have 6% THC which is basically not going to be even noticed by an old stoner from the 50's in two or three hits in the morning. The pain relief and nausea relief is truly remarkable. I also use the CBD drops which control upset stomach quite a bit and highly recommend them. Just in case anyone was wondering. You can add that to your study I guess. There are probably other strains I could try but that is the two local varieties they offered me based on my treatment plan which was mapped out by like five different specialists and none of them objected to the pot, most highly suggested I have it on hand and one flat out admitted they could not provide anything better.

I have always thought that smoking it was the last thing we should use it for, therein lies the idea that CBD drops would be a good route...

[Richard S.]

I have a long term friend that started smoking on a very regular basis once it was legalized. It absolutely created psychosis in him, with extreme paranoid delusions. At first it only seemed to happen while under the influence but eventually it became his reality construct all the time. The strange thing is he still kept smoking it. It's interesting, there was a time when he became very angry. It was the weirdest thing. The guys voice and speech pattern changed and his appearance looked so different. I swear it was like a totally different person. I do have to sat he seemed to be possessed.

I can't imagine what the attraction was to something that makes one so paranoid. I guess the same thing could be asked to meth users. Maybe it goes back to the attraction of the original feelings one got with the substance. That was true of my relationship with alcohol.

Personally, I never found any relaxation with marijuana, only an intense awareness and an uneasiness being on this planet that was overwhelming to me. I do see that it could be very wonderful if used wisely for some.

I have someone who is close that I can't be around when this person is smoking pot, when the same person doesn't smoke I love the energy the same person has.

Yeah, it does influence character on different levels in different forms for many...

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I have learned to respect Marijuana a lot more, after years of abuse.

If I smoke marijuana (maybe once a month) I make sure I am in a positive frame of mind. I have been able to clear so many blockages whilst being high. I become my own psychologist and it has really helped me to evolve spiritually.

The effects of occasional use versus regular use are clearly not the same...

[Ratszinger]

Oh, the lower like bottom grade THC content plants that have the highest CBD that I like both the flavor and true relief from are Painkiller XL strain, and Fast Eddie strain. Both of these were bought local and have 6% THC which is basically not going to be even noticed by an old stoner from the 50's in two or three hits in the morning. The pain relief and nausea relief is truly remarkable. I also use the CBD drops which control upset stomach quite a bit and highly recommend them. Just in case anyone was wondering. You can add that to your study I guess. There are probably other strains I could try but that is the two local varieties they offered me based on my treatment plan which was mapped out by like five different specialists and none of them objected to the pot, most highly suggested I have it on hand and one flat out admitted they could not provide anything better.

I have always thought that smoking it was the last thing we should use it for, therein lies the idea that CBD drops would be a good route...

I never thought that. Honestly I don't know when that thought originated because historically it's been used in drinks, and smoked in small doses for asthma relief that is also quite immediate as well as ingested in other ways by various cultures. I don't know that pain relief was one of the uses but I don't know that it wasn't. I do know that Shaman in the Navajo villages I lived and worked in use it to settle their stomachs during Peyote ingestion ceremonies. Compared to other things I can use the smoke is more immediate relief both for nausea and for joint pain remarkably or I wouldn't use it. Compared to Motrin the joint pain relief is an added bonus because Motrin sometimes takes forty min. to kick in for me. I didn't see that joint pain relief coming from smoking but remarkably it has provided me with great relief particularly in my thumbs and my elbows.

My routine doesn't cause any real issues for me six to ten tokes to finish three one hits a day isn't going to hurt anyone and its certainly not being noticed by my doctors. Anything, even water can be abused tho. Blaming a compulsive habit that is likely hereditary is looking for a needle in a haystack really. I don't see marijuana as strong enough to induce any of the things mentioned and it's simply not had any paranoia effect on me. I have witnessed the paranoia in friends but lets talk about that.

In my experience, the paranoia I witnessed in every single friend I grew up with that smoked was simply because weed was illegal! They worried about being discovered and they worried someone would notice they were high or see their eyes! Remember their frantic searches for the Visine cause "MOM"s coming! That was the paranoia was that they'd be caught or noticed! The incense, the scented candles, the mirror dangled smelly things in the car? All about paranoia of being caught! Now that isn't even an issue for those same friends and they all still smoke and none of theme exhibit this paranoid feeling anymore it left with the license making them legal.

[Valerie Villars]

As an aside, I heard a cop refer to the mirror dangly things as a "felony forrest" so they seem to be some kind of a dead giveaway for our militarized police and an invitation to search you and your car.

[Richard S.]

There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.


Kudos, Sammy. If I may ask, is it a constant "battle" while abstaining? The stress of the constant vigilance appears to me to be so draining for so many. Have you discovered any tricks to make the cloud just dissipate?

It always kind of annoys me when I am asked "Do you drink?" or "Do you smoke pot?" It's like a double bind question to me. No, I am not an abstainer, but yes, I will have a couple glasses of wine or tokes in a relaxed setting, by choice. Perhaps it is motive that determines the extremes, ie relaxation, expansion, social connection, or escapism. And what I pick up as the key that throws off the balance to the extremes is usually Pain (with a capital P!) Whether physical pain, mental pain, psychic pain, spiritual pain. And right now, there is a whole lotta pain in this world.

PS - it is the pain I see that pains me. I try my best not to ever add to it.
:(

Every time the thought of smoking again crosses my mind, I think of where I am presently versus where I was when I was addicted.

The thought leaves me instantaneously...

[Ratszinger]

There's another important ingredient and that is one's susceptibility to addiction. There are many opinions as to what goes into the generation of an addiction or the creation of an addictive personality. But one opinion that is held widespread is that usually once a person becomes addicted to something (or, as in my case, many many substances as well as many behaviors) it is extremely rare if not unheard of for seriously addicted substance abuser to one day learn to "control" their intake. In my case, I never learned to control it and had only one choice, risk another eventual psychosis or abstain completely. Since January of 2012 (save for a very stupid four day slip about 4 years ago), I have maintained perfect abstinence from all substances. My family and loved ones are grateful.


Kudos, Sammy. If I may ask, is it a constant "battle" while abstaining? The stress of the constant vigilance appears to me to be so draining for so many. Have you discovered any tricks to make the cloud just dissipate?

It always kind of annoys me when I am asked "Do you drink?" or "Do you smoke pot?" It's like a double bind question to me. No, I am not an abstainer, but yes, I will have a couple glasses of wine or tokes in a relaxed setting, by choice. Perhaps it is motive that determines the extremes, ie relaxation, expansion, social connection, or escapism. And what I pick up as the key that throws off the balance to the extremes is usually Pain (with a capital P!) Whether physical pain, mental pain, psychic pain, spiritual pain. And right now, there is a whole lotta pain in this world.

PS - it is the pain I see that pains me. I try my best not to ever add to it.
:(

Every time the thought of smoking again crosses my mind, I think of where I am presently versus where I was when I was addicted.

The thought leaves me instantaneously...

That is addiction which was something you were predisposed to before you met the plant. So again on these issues the plant can't take the ding for what genetics brought to the table here. You are the cause of your addiction not the plant. The plant just identified that potential in your make up. It's the exact thing alcoholics say about the thought of drinking again.

I believe people drink for different reasons. Alcohol is the social lubricant. I was quite Asperger like as a child, very autistic leaning and smoking a little weed and a couple beers is all it took to make me 'normal' and suddenly I fit in. This was in my teens and my late teens at that but had it not been for that I don't know that I could have mustered the nerve to break out of my shell. It lowered my inhibitions enough to let me cut lose with life I never once felt like these things held me back. I have absolutely no regrets about any of either. So I hear and see key differences in my story from others here.

My life is the same now as it was when I smoked. I've always been a 'micro-manager of time. Most dentists are as we live in 20 min. increments. :-) Seriously though the management of time is just one aspect of management. You have finance, all your necessities and car maintenance and so on for your house but I tend to plan and my wife too. As a result maybe our character or maybe education I don't know was the diff. but it has not changed or affected my relationships, or my situation. I really don't give it that kind of power over me.

I make those decisions. We have no debt. I own everything, four cars, well three trucks and a jeep but they are mine and the house is mine, the lots and land I have is all mine I have no notes no bills other than electives. I've smoked with one long break in life from it totaling fifteen years leaving more than this for smoke time and I'm pretty sure if I had never smoked at all I'd still have developed prostate cancer and would have had to have had my prostate removed but I'm not so sure I'd have ever left home. I probably never would have went to school out of fear, and I never would have met my wife. When I look at my siblings all still at home having never tried pot even once I see what I'd be because I often wonder if that isn't the defining diff. between why I ended up as I did and they where they did since I mean, I'm the 'Stoner' in the family but yet when someone needs money who do they call? Clear throat here quite loudly~ What was that stereotype you called me again while you stand there asking for what was it? HELP? From me? The what was it you called me? Yeah there was some pay back. While I take full responsibility for where I am and the decisions I made to get here I often do think it was the plant that helped me to see it. To understand it and branch out. Then in my own time separate from the plant times smoking it I went about making it happen and went out and saw the world. My siblings are all close to mom, never having gone much of anywhere but other counties nearby. All but one never even left the state.

Reading this it becomes obvious to me that more people than I realized are giving away their personal power to alcohol and this plant when they really don't have to. They just have forgotten their own strengths.

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

On Joe Rogan podcast #1109 with Matthew Walker, Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, they discuss the effects of marijuana on sleep. Apparently the REM stages of sleep are bypassed when falling asleep high, which can cause a re-bound effect later. Our brains need all stages of sleep and according to Walker, the lack of REM sleep can cause real problems in people who drink alcohol or consume marijuana before sleeping. Worth a listen.

[bobme]

Hello every one. As has been stated earlier, everyone is different.

For me, eating it is my way. there is no inhaling, and coughing my ass off.

I actually become more energetic when I use it. Also more alert.

Parinoid too. But when I am parinoid, I am very alert to my surroundings. I can see things unfold, so to speak, before they actually do. therefore, I can avoid any negetive outcome.

Just me.

Respect all others reactions to mary jane.:heart:

[enfoldedblue]

Hi Sam, Thanks for sharing...I hear what a struggle this was for you. I understand how out of this world intense this state is...and experiencing it 10x is massive. I'd be curious to know your thoughts as to whether this would be different if we didn't live in such a harsh, unsupportive, and medicalized society. As I wrote about in Jump in the Blue, I was hospitalized with what the doctors labeled psychosis. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that if I had had wise people around me who understood the cosmic elements as well as the process, who could have held safe space for me and allowed me to go through the journey... i may have come out the otherside without need for medical intervention. I do not know because I was forceable strapped down and medicated...and when i awoke was back in normal reality.
What are your thoughts on Paul Levi's work?

Item by item… “I'd be curious to know your thoughts as to whether this would be different if we didn't live in such a harsh, unsupportive, and medicalized society.”
I could write pages and pages on this very question. The short answer though is, “Of course.” But having said that, in my own experience, the emergence of the psychosis still would have happened. I am jumping ahead here a bit, but I am increasingly coming to the theoretical idea that long term heavy use of potent (high THC percentage) marijuana causes metabolic reactions that exacerbate and/or accelerate what eventually becomes a psychosis. Let me further clarify, I do not conclude THC causes this. I conclude that my form of ingestion (smoking it in a bong) and how that smoke and all the smoke brought into my system, eventually ignited the psychosis. The THC is the psychoactive compound that induced the shamanic journey experience. By combining the effects of “the high” with the reality of my life (a challenging one), it was easy for me to become addicted.

So to all readers, please, see the points I am making with regards to my own (and only my own) personal experience combined with my extensive research and some of the theories I have tied into the whole matter. What if (and this is my current view) I presented a unique combination of psychological vulnerability and physiological vulnerability whereby when I tried marijuana and then became immediately addicted, my form of ingestion and that which I ingested through that form set of a series of physiological/psychological/psychospiritual changes whereby that doorway to the dark forces flew wide open. Each psychosis always began with a change where I started having psychic experiences. In time, paranoia would emerge.

When I would begin to experience an increase in the two, that’s when the psychosis experience would begin. The time it took for the first psychic experiences to become full blown psychosis was short in my youngest days – maybe a month or two. But as I got older, the time frame expanded. By the time I had my 8th experience (1989) it took several months and in fact, was one of the only two times I did not end up in a psychiatric facility).

My tenth (and last experience) was the most important experience of them all. For one, I had not used marijuana in the form of wake and bake for eleven years. In addition, for the full two years prior I had not touched any other substance including alcohol. In fact, for five months prior to my re-entry into the use of marijuana, I was completely without any substance of any kind. Yet when I found myself once again trying marijuana (August of 2010 and one month short of my 53rd birthday), I started daily use which, within a few weeks became the daily, all day routine. Why did I do this? Because that mid-August day when I tried marijuana again, I went into an amazing state of what I call hyper-quantum synchronicity (psychic). That type of experience is so incredible and so beyond mundane, boring, waking state five sense reality, that I instantly went back to daily use. It took 15 months for the paranoia to begin. Once that began, it took less than two months for a full-blown psychosis to emerge.

What is vitally important to me and why I created this thread must be re-emphasized. IMO we best not lose sight of how I have characterized the psychosis experience – essentially that it opens the door (or pushes the already open door even more open) to demonic intrusion. THAT is the reason I created this thread.

“As I wrote about in Jump in the Blue, I was hospitalized with what the doctors labeled psychosis. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that if I had had wise people around me who understood the cosmic elements as well as the process, who could have held safe space for me and allowed me to go through the journey... i may have come out the otherside without need for medical intervention.”

I agree 100%. Psychosis, however it comes about… whatever might be the underlying factors and/or causes, if understood to be what (at least to me) it seems to be… an opening of a doorway to higher zones within the Grand Reality - all maya, all illusion to some yet to those like myself who have experienced psychosis, especially dark psychosis, as much as I want to see it as maya, the fact of my experience suggests it as all too ‘real’ at the experiential levels of our being. Psychosis all too often leads to self harm and/or the harm of others. Yet there are those who experience states that seem much the same as the states where dark psychosis emerges whereby these states produce incredibly positive experiences.

And so, my question has been, is it the state that is at fault? Or is it the state of affairs of one’s current reality experience and the state of affairs of one’s spiritual, mental, emotional well being at the time they enter these states that informs the experience? I would put my money on, “Yes.”

Our world appears to me to be almost completely insane. My individual state was screwed up from my earliest memories and though I could point to circumstances that some would consider as the reason, but in all honesty, from the age of six years old onwards, I was a very disturbed kid. So by the time I had my first real psychotic break (age 19), I was ripe for the experience to be a dark one. And the treatment I found myself having to endure (the psyche facilities) had no clue how to deal with me. Interestingly, I was diagnosed bi-polar. But after I came down from the raging psychosis, the drug they used to bring me down was discontinued. And no other medication was used. I returned to the five-sense world but never forgot the details of the psychic experiences that filled the episode. As of that experience, I was convinced there was more to reality than the mundane, material, five-sense world, despite what mainstream science was so strongly pushing.

“I do not know because I was forceably strapped down and medicated...and when i awoke was back in normal reality.”

That’s sad to read. I was fortunate as they withdrew the “anti-psychosis” medication quickly and so I emerged slowly and thus had continued to experience psi. And the good thing for me was that I felt safe and so the paranoia went away. But also, as the days marched on, that psychic stuff all diminished and indeed I found myself once again in the five-sense world. But also, it felt like a prison and I never forgot the experience of an expanded reality. In fact, that was what always enticed me back into use.

Lastly, What are your thoughts on Paul Levi's work? I understand the views he holds and why he holds them.

This quote attributed to Levy seems to some his view and concerns up –

“Wetiko psychosis is at the very root of humanity's inhumanity to itself in all its various forms. As a species, we need to step into and participate in our own spiritual and psychological evolution, which means that we must focus our attention on and contemplate this most important topic before this virulent madness destroys us.”

He combines two words – Wetiko and psychosis. From my understanding, Wetiko (described here (https://exploringyourmind.com/wetiko-virus-selfishness-native-americans/)) - suggests a grander, collective psychosis albeit that it manifests within individuals. If ever something like this may actually be “truth” this may very well be it. This virus is a "mind virus" and the infection stems from "evil spirits" (demonic entities in my vernacular). When I consider the plethora of reported individual experiences of demonic intrusion while considering how many have gone unreported combined with my view as to the state of affairs on Earth today, it would be no surprise to me there’s accuracy in suggesting this is a virus of the mind in the whole planet is infected. And that what we are facing is a mass psychosis. And that this is a mass demonic invasion.

From the article –

“According to Native Americans, Wetiko is an evil spirit that invades human minds. It’s a “virus” of selfishness.”

And

“…we live in an era where most psycho-social phenomena proves the existence of a “virus” of selfishness.”

Levy offers a solution, shadow work, a clearly effective path to take. It is one of the tools in my own arsenal. Emphasis, one of many. And I have a long, long way to go in this regard.

My opinion with regards to solution is that it all must emanate from the individual yet, practitioners of "evil spirit removal" can certainly play a vital role, what is most greatly needed is a complete opening of the mind of the masses of humanity that what we are dealing with is an invasion of that which is not easily reconcilable to our five sense, material realm but ever so powerful as to its influence, its impact. And that we need to move away from argument between us as to whether or not demonic intrusion is "real" and for those who are open to the idea it is indeed "real" need to avoid argument as to whose religious paradigm is most right about the matter as this is an exact result of the very demonic intrusion.

Thanks for your well considered reply Sammy. Your last paragraph really struck me. It is interesting because since that time I have become a Quantum Healing Hypnosis practitioner and I am constantly blown away at how in sessions clients enter a state that feels very similar to the world I entered during my 'psychotic break''. While each session is completely unique in terms of experience, there seems to be natural laws that are consistent. I was not raised with any religion and largely take the approach that I know nothing for certain so I am very open.

As an example of these natural laws--- a client was walking through a forest in this state she felt very childlike and was kicking something along the path. She then noticed that her energy went down as she kicked this object...and she could see its energy diminishing as well. Then she stopped and began caressing the leaves of tree along the path. When she did this her energy immediately rose and she could feel the energy of the tree increasing as well, and her sense of connection to it increased. Afterwards she told me that she almost didn't vocalise this as it seemed so obvious... but when she had returned to everyday consciousness she realized it absolutely wasn't.

Other basic things that come through include: an understanding that we are eternal beings, continually learning and growing; or that there are other non physical beings that interact with us at an unconscious level; that there is a level in which everything that unfolds appears perfect; that our perspective influences how reality unfolds around us.

These are a few which I find so fascinating!

Another interesting similarity is that people labeled psychotic often experience themselves as being godlike, this can also occur in sessions. Just last week I had a client in an online session who saw himself traveling through space as an orb. He said he felt like a deity and that this state felt extremely natural...much more so than being in his human form.

Obviously a big difference between these two ways of experiencing the wider reality is that in the 'psychotic' state the person usually accesses this state of mind accidently, without a guide, and are unable to return to everyday consciousness at will. This will add an under current of fear to the experience, which I believe influences the content of the experience. In contrast people who are guided into this space only experience it in a specific timeframe, in a space that feels safe and supported...so the experiences tend to be very positive and healing.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Bumper crop this year! Some seeding...

King Tut is my favorite.

Since legalization, I get mine half price. Thanks Canada!

Will never stop.

My experience is exactly the opposite, Sammy. Without it I would have developed a psychosis.

Even as it is, I can barely get through the day...life is way too long.

[Chester]

Bumper crop this year! Some seeding...

King Tut is my favorite.

Since legalization, I get mine half price. Thanks Canada!

Will never stop.

My experience is exactly the opposite, Sammy. Without it I would have developed a psychosis.

Even as it is, I can barely get through the day...life is way too long.

You have no idea how much I wish I didn't have this strange proclivity.

I had to finally face up to my own personal reality. (Speaking to myself) - Accept what you never wanted to (it took ten events to finally draw the line).

Accept the fact that when I smoked marijuana, I always sank into addiction.

Accept the fact that always and without exception, I eventually became psychotic.

Consider that what I experienced during psychosis could have been demonically directed attacks... I can't necessarily "know" it was, but I sure do put my money on it.

And weigh the fact that so much of the good that has happened in my life since 2012 would likely never have come to pass if I had been stoned during the last seven years even if I avoided sinking back into another psychosis.

Why did I create this thread? For someone else, that's why. A potential "other with the same proclivity." You can shut out the demon(s) my friend. If I could do it, anyone can.

[Chester]

I think I need to get to the bottom line as to why I acted on the urge to create this thread.

Being convinced my situation is likely rare and perhaps extremely rare, it is not unique.

Whether the extremely dangerous levels of psychosis reached (dangerous certainly to myself, but in similar cases, dangerous to others... cases I could cite if asked) had opened me up to experiencing "compellings" upon which I acted and then opened me up to hearing clear, audible voices in my head telling me to act on the thoughts of self harm, were experiences generated by -

demonic intrusion

evil physical non-human enities

evil "other dimensional" or "other vibrational" non-human entities

block op, gang stalking operations involving other humans

that which involves non of the above and is purely self generated delusions

If, as it appears to be the case in my own case, this eventuality never comes to pass regardless of all my other life circumstances without my introduction of smoking marijuana into the mix, I think its wise that I stopped using marijuana and that I maintain a "zero usage" lifestyle.

Would anyone here disagree I shouldn't have stopped? Would anyone recommend I start smoking marijuana again?

And so it is in the spirit of this particular post, feeling care and love for another who I have known only through cyber space... who might read this thread, might just find a way to free himself from this one particular ingredient of his daily life, remove it long enough to see if the evil aliens and their cohorts, black ops gang stalking CIA folks activities he feels are the source of his misery whereby he has concluded he is a targeted individual and can never escape the torment... that these experiences stop happening!

And I must add this - perhaps he is (perhaps I am) a targeted individual, regardless of whatever may be the source... if, by removing that one single thing, smoking marijuana, gives me the ability to take the upper hand, to end the misery and constant torment, to change the direction of my life (as I did) where I find myself experiencing a life filled with an ability to be good in all sorts of practical ways for others, for my loved ones (whereas before I was a serious burden)... and good in ways like never before, for myself, why then, should I not consider finding a way to stop using marijuana (and I mean completely) and give it some time and see if perhaps the experience of being targeted goes away? (Like it did in my own case).

I hope my friend finds this thread and reads it, especially this post.

[RogeRio]

Why did I create this thread? For someone else, that's why. A potential "other with the same proclivity." You can shut out the demon(s) my friend. If I could do it, anyone can.

I agree with you. I was affraid to comment (before) but this post where you said (quoted), inclined me to talk a little bit about what I know.

After life, If we was harrassed in life with addicted beings, (a type of vampirism), these energivore beings certainly will target you to make part of their group. Maybe this life its your time to go far away from them, because you know (by own experience) how evil is sucking energy from other, unaware about the harrasment.

You are the first person I hear that implies the harassment of demons by marijuana, but I know this exist someway. It usually happens to traffickers who are also addicted, and need to traffic to support their own addiction, So, they live harassing others to buy the substance. The (ethical) law of attraction works in a sense that who harass others is harassed by others, So, what I think you are doing here, Its to Stop this vicious cycle from you, and giving a good example to help others Congratulations !

I think the most worse substances that cause big problems to humans Is alcohol and cocaine, even because both are often consumed together. I know some persons that cannot live without drink alcohol, and after drink some doses, they saw another person, literally possessed. Regards that the eventual use of substances don't means be possessed, but the Excess and Sistematic use YES, even because its virtually a superhuman power, when an organism is able to absorb so much. That would be the a trigger to diagnose those who are seriously harassed by addicts.

What they suck is vital energy, usually through the liver chakra. Then, they choose those who are addicted, in addition to supplying the substance already metabolized (energetically), the person provide vital energy which is their main need. But if you have a little of the substance they like, it's even better. So, its more easy to harass (vital energy) from who are addicted than who are not.

So, the issue of being target by this reason can be seen not personal, and that's why if you stop the use, you stop to being harrased by demons, using the popular language. I apologize my bad english, but I'm trying to explain very complex (spiritual) phenomena, maybe one of the most evil and difficult to release. The energetic harrassment are not limited to addicts, but as I said, the addict turn that things more easy to happen, but absolutely not happen with everyone who consumes addictive substances. Everything is very relative.

[shaberon]

What is vitally important to me and why I created this thread must be re-emphasized. IMO we best not lose sight of how I have characterized the psychosis experience – essentially that it opens the door (or pushes the already open door even more open) to demonic intrusion. THAT is the reason I created this thread.

Psychosis, however it comes about… whatever might be the underlying factors and/or causes, if understood to be what (at least to me) it seems to be… an opening of a doorway to higher zones within the Grand Reality - all maya, all illusion to some yet to those like myself who have experienced psychosis, especially dark psychosis, as much as I want to see it as maya, the fact of my experience suggests it as all too ‘real’ at the experiential levels of our being. Psychosis all too often leads to self harm and/or the harm of others. Yet there are those who experience states that seem much the same as the states where dark psychosis emerges whereby these states produce incredibly positive experiences.



The last sentence in particular is pretty much exactly what I am trying to say.

With respect to Maya, it does not mean illusion as in nothing exists, it means like an illusion, a trick, or mirage.

And then the altered state seems much more real and we wonder how it could still be under Maya.

So if I had to find an English word for psychosis which could range anywhere from peaceful to criminally violent, I might try Intensity. The peaceful condition may "be insane" while obviously having no damaging behavior and instead being rather beneficial, but it is definitely more intense than ordinary waking consciousness.

One can also be peaceful in a completely dark, silent setting, a cave. I personally love it. So there is a literal darkness that is actually fine, versus a sort of emotional darkness, which is undesirable.

What Sammy is trying to say is difficult to express, but to me, this is one of the few areas where I can tell someone in their own experience has gone through pain but with a struggle for illumination that is reaching the bullseye. When you put that together with the attitude of responsibility instead of "demonizing", then you have something that is not just true but actually useful.

In this sense, we have a power that I believe the average professional psychiatrist does not.

It is a bit curious and different to me because in terms of a substance, I cannot relegate this to marijuana but would have to say LSD. Enough to know. I do not really like the Grateful Dead but some of it was from the leader of the band. That kind of thing. It's the same. It's sort of like a massive acceleration of something the body and mind can do on their own, which could take months or years of other stimuli, takes place in a few hours.

I had some marijuana while I was in a self-induced psychosis recently, and I couldn't feel it. Acid is like that. One guy told me he started smoking cigars just so he would be able to tell he was smoking anything.

So yeah I understand what psychosis is like from a drug or non-drug perspective, and I would probably call it Intensity compared to regular life, and the good or bad is just different versions of the same thing. Like when people have told me about aphorism or the feeling of ants crawling all over the body while the room is on fire, and, I'm pretty sure that was like me, except they lost control of it. I can understand that if it goes wrong you could really turn in to a rubber room loony. I've been so close to both that and to doing some extremely bad things that I think it is both true and important to "use as directed".

On the other hand, it is much, much easier to learn about it by slipping into the insanity or the unpleasant emotions and watch the control go away. Much more common. If we think we know what we are talking about, and try to intercede with someone about whether they are possessed, I don't know how it would go. But if there are examples of "it happened to me", if I can admit to being just as screwed up but finding an effective way to handle it, could this be more reliable than the opinion of someone who does not really know what they are talking about?

Wetiko is an alternate of Wendigo which is like Jersey Devil or lycanthrope, and yes, if you start going under the plunge anywhere around the east coast and into the midwest, you are getting this. It may be something like a different flavor of what in Japan may be called Suicide Demon. Something like a living mental illness that attaches itself to weak people and if it takes over enough then they become beast. Maybe it is the same out west. I do not know too much about them or it specifically.

Well, I suppose there are other things capable of doing the act of possession, so I should just say it continues to spread, along with other dangers.

Yes, a year of downcycle followed by paranoia can put you on your knees before it.

It "is" a demonic invasion, sort of in the way that a volcanic eruption is a lava invasion and so forth. In this case, if it has no target, it can't do anything. It is "energy looking for mental illness" like an electrical socket is looking for an appliance.

"When consciousness is in the hold of any external object, it is in the grip of a demon." -- Yeshe Tsogyal

What is she saying...it's some kind of mirror that shows the inner self which is something the ordinary person should not get too close of a look at, because it is very cloudy with demons. We are surrounded, we are subject to their influence regularly, and if we succumb, they will just take us. She is saying we need to change the relationship with the outer world since there is no "other". Nothing out there to make our consciousness twist. Anger is baseless and desire has no root.

One must sacrifice the ego.

One can struggle to do so for one's own, but, that of another person, when wrapped with something non-human and maybe non-intelligent, can be difficult to impossible.

I have had a couple chicks "protect" me from stalkers of their own, by staying away. At least two. How many is that? One of each. In the first case, I am thinking probably, Wendigo-esque insanity, and in the other, probably Golden Dawn or O. T. O. or something. The first one for instance tied the girl to a tree in the middle of nowhere, raped her, and left her there. You could get killed or anything. This stuff is for real. And yet I understand what motivates them. At times I really do feel anguish that is so extreme I start wanting to go for it. The only real difference between me and a stalker or anyone like that is that I never act it out and keep it in control until it goes away. I can say I definitely feel the Wendigo trying to get in. But I adhere to the North Pole so to speak.

[RogeRio]

What Sammy is trying to say is difficult to express, but to me, this is one of the few areas where I can tell someone in their own experience has gone through pain but with a struggle for illumination that is reaching the bullseye. When you put that together with the attitude of responsibility instead of "demonizing", then you have something that is not just true but actually useful.

In this sense, we have a power that I believe the average professional psychiatrist does not.


absolutely wiseful !!

I apologize (staff Mods and members) to post sequentially here, but the whole contents deserve be careful appreciated.

I also add that psychiatrist it's not the best professional option to search a good solution, because a psychiatrist will probably medicate with neuro inhibitors, and these almost cases its not "neurosis". A good psychologist and good therapy should solve the problem much better, because If stop treatment with a neuro inhibitor, the problem returns and there are still side effects that these drugs cause in the body. So, would be virtually exchanging one addiction for another. Only the doctor and the drug manufacturer make profit out of it.

Here (my country) we have a popular saying that goes -- Who have good friends, never need a psychologist, neither therapy !! :happythumbsup:
We use this jargon to induce a friend to pay the bar bill while he tells his problems and we analyze, sincerely. It's a joke, indeed, but works !

[petra]

People all have 'cannabinoid receptors', and judging by name alone, sounds to me like those are intended to be receptive to cannabis. Not trying to condone cannabis use - I just find it telling that we have these receptors at all. Same thing with 'cancer cells'. I mean, WTF do we even need those for.

[shaberon]

Here (my country) we have a popular saying that goes -- Who have good friends, never need a psychologist, neither therapy !! :happythumbsup:
We use this jargon to induce a friend to pay the bar bill while he tells his problems and we analyze, sincerely. It's a joke, indeed, but works !


Yes, exactly, and I have a feeling that you know because you do it.

Here, we manufacture the disease by isolating and wearing down individuals until they no longer have a network of trust. That is why I think the degree of neurotic delusions in this country is unheard of in most other places. For "all we have", there is a strange dedication towards ignorance and mental illness, which then allows "experts" to gain an unusual degree of power.

In fact I intimidate a lot of people who are uncomfortable with the "subconscious surge" of how I suppose I flush madness to the surface or into the field of awareness. It seems to me they are really uneasy about something about themselves and don't want me to know. Others understand, and, I've been given a pretty big basket of secrets and dirty laundry, and in those cases where I helped someone get through it, that is what I have actually done with my life. Nothing else seems to matter the same way.

And then some of what is behind some of these terrible secrets is the Wendigo and right now I am forced to deal with it in some way again. It tried to take me and came quite close and almost had me and I sort of hit it with Thor's hammer. Or I did that to another human brain.

The aftermath of clearing it away from my aura is that later it goes back to another person, and so I am still surrounded, you see.

I promised the host I wouldn't smash it any more and I need a new tactic yesterday. This is no beer as a social drug. Way past that point. All I know how to do is fight. This is a predicament.

I might just say you have Lung and put up Wind Horse but I don't know if there is even a chance.

[rentemailad742]

But it may not be complicated in growing cannabis in cycle (https://homegrowncannabisco.com/gyo/grow-stages/explosive-growth-moon-cycles/), cheers

[Chester]

But it may not be complicated in growing cannabis in cycle (https://homegrowncannabisco.com/gyo/grow-stages/explosive-growth-moon-cycles/), cheers

Apologies, but your post has nothing to do with this thread.

[Dennis Leahy]

Allow me to interject a few thoughts into this discussion.

First, if smoking cannabis sometimes triggers bad things to happen within you, don't ever smoke cannabis again. Don't mistake anything that I write for a recommendation to smoke cannabis - it isn't. I decided to add to this thread due to "errors and omissions" noted in several posts.

On the eve of legislation legalizing cannabis in the US (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/3884?overview=closed), it's kinda sad to see this discussion of a proclivity to break into a state of psychosis when smoking cannabis, wrapped in decades old - obviously very effective - propaganda.

"Marijuana" is a weaponized nickname for cannabis, like "wacky tobacky" or "devil's lettuce" or "dope." Sharp Avalonians know that propaganda/narrative control is the primary psychological manipulation tool of the Ruling Class, and the US-centric Empire exploded into the science of manipulation by propaganda with Bernays work merely the catalyst. Aware of the historical to present manipulation of perspective by casting cannabis as "marijuana", none of us should ever use the word "marijuana" again. There is no such plant in scientific literature. The plant in question is the genus "Cannabis", with "sativa", "indica", and "ruderalis" as the three existing species of the cannabis genus (and thousands of varieties combining the genetics of the species.)

Cannabis is not addictive. The word "addiction" has a specific scientific meaning, and there are no compounds in cannabis that even come close to meeting the criteria for addiction. Chronic nose-picking, chronic hair-twirling, and chronic masturbation are also not addictions. Behavioral patterns are not addictions (even though addictions include behavioral patterns.)

"Marijuana Induced Psychosis

...how could the circumstances I described above be conclusive that the psychosis was induced by marijuana usage? Studies. That’s how. And there has been more and more studies that are increasingly conclusive that people who have a predisposition to developing psychosis significantly increase the risk psychosis develops by usage of marijuana....
...

So again, to pro marijuana folks, don’t get defensive based on what I wrote above. It's simply facts. But I have more facts that may be appreciated more.

The percentage of the population that have this proclivity is at most, about 5%."
You have given a sense that there are numerous studies linking cannabis use to psychosis. Even if it was true, it is deceptive to mention any scientific study done on cannabis or cannabinoids (maybe with the exception of Raphael Mechoulam in Israel, who thumbed his nose at the US/UN restrictions on studying cannabis) over the past decades, because researchers had to declare what they were studying to try to get a permit. No permits were given to researchers unless the research was to prove a negative property of cannabis. There is a scientific dearth of study of cannabinoids in humans, and, for example, cannabis oil caregivers have to cite a rat study for data on blood-brain barrier regulation of cannabinoids, in fighting brain cancer.

I do not doubt that someone predisposed to bouts of psychosis might be triggered into that state by cannabis consumption. Or sugar consumption. Or low blood sugar. Or dehydration. Or a burst of adrenaline. Or lack of sleep. Or radiation/frequencies. ... If someone is in the fortunate position of knowing what triggers such episodes, that person can - and should - avoid that trigger.

(I'll throw in an aside here, and mention that the modern Western medical phrase "evidence-based medicine" is a euphemism for, "backed-up by a pharmaceutical study of a synthetic pharmacological substance conducted by a prominent commercial pharmaceutical corporation." Always bear in mind that this is the pharmaceutical industry trying to establish the Rockefeller-founded petrochemical-medicine industry as the sole authority on medical substances.)

In 1985, something amazing happened in Western medicine: a new system was discovered within the human body! You know, like "skeletal", and "muscular", and "vascular" and "endocrine" - a whole new system was discovered! I'll bet it wasn't on the cover of your newspaper, or even on the cover of the scientific publications of the day. Astoundingly, the new system discovered was quickly understood to actually be the top-level "super-regulatory" system of the human body, regulating other regulatory systems! The system discovered was named the endocannabinoid system. ("endo-" means within the body; "phyto-" means from plants; endo + cannabinoid = endocannabinoid. phyto + cannabinoid = phytocannabinoid) Phyto-cannabinoids are cannabinoids, such as THCa and CBDa, from plants. Endo-cannabinoids are cannabinoids made by the human body.

So, our bodies make cannabinoids, we have receptors for those cannabinoids all over our bodies, and that endocannabinoid system is the high-level system in charge of regulating other regulatory systems. Endocannabinoids are neurotransmitters, "programmable messenger molecules." The first endocannabinoid discovered was called "anandamide", and (to cut to the chase), THC is a mimitic of anandamide. Again, the phytocannabinoid tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) mimics the main neurotransmitter in the endocannabinoid system. I believe this explains why cannabis is listed as helping with or curing disease in so many various systems throughout the body and so many different conditions: the THC molecule is seen as anandamide by the body, programmed for some task, and utilized as a neurotransmitter to affect some process. When a patient takes in phytocannabinoids, the body gets a flood of cannabinoids, and since they are generic/programmable for various maintenance and repair tasks, the body is able to send out more messenger molecules to address conditions more quickly.

Just as it is possible for the human body to have too little or too much of some substance produced by the body (serotonin and melatonin as examples) that affects brain/mental/emotional functioning, it seems logical that substances either produced by the body or plant-based substances that mimic their functionality can be in concentrations that are too low (see the work of Dr. Courtney Cox) or too high - and that could also affect brain/mental/emotional functioning.

Underscoring that phytocannabinoids have triggered psychotic events and "citing" that a study showed that 5% of the population is subject to psychosis with cannabinoids leaves a false impression - since 100% of people have cannabinoids in our bodies at all times. It's a meaningless (and misleading or even false) claim without specifying thresholds and the chemical specifics of the substances taken, along with a baseline of the patients' endocannabinoid levels. Synthesized THC and over-refined cannabis products (like fractionally distilled THC) act completely differently from their natural and unrefined counterparts. (Cannabis contains over 100 different cannabinoids, terpines, flavones, plant waxes, chlorophyll, etc. Cannabis does not equal pharmaceutical or refined cannabis products.

I'm of the opinion that no one should smoke anything, nor run into burning buildings or work in a coal mine or a woodshop without a particle mask or even a full respirator. However, there should not be any legislation at all regarding smoking anything, and instead the government should simply fill a role as a truthful, forthright presenter of information and recommendations. Cannabinoid medicine will be one of the 3 largest segments of new 21st century Western medicine, along with stem cells and physics (light and other frequency emitting, and magnetic) devices. Combustion (releasing carcinogenic toxins) is the worst way to deliver the medicine.

I bothered to write all this up because of my studies of cannabis, and especially of its medical benefits. I also have no problem with those that take-in cannabis simply for the euphoria/fun of it, and note that the shelves in the pharmacy that hold all the mood-altering medicines are not labeled as "recreational." It's all medicinal, whether taken for mood or pain or sleep or cancer.

The legalization of cannabis in the US will happen when the rich scumbags that rule the US from behind the curtain have everything in place to make billions of dollars from cannabis - and not one moment before. The proposed federal legislation nets the US federal government 5% tax on all sales of all cannabis products (other than "hemp" products, hemp being a nickname for cannabis that the US government hijacked and assigned to cannabis with less than 0.3% THCa/THC in the plant material.) So, with that oh-so-predictable mobster skimming off the top mentality, I believe that legalization is actually going to happen in the near future. The billionaires are ready to open the faucet of the cannabis cash stream, and the Mafioso-esque US government is set to get their cut.

[onawah]

From the perspective of someone who has been a consumer and proponent of live foods (whole, raw, sprouted, fermented, cultured) for much of my life, I've arrived at the conclusion that the application of high heat to anything that is to be consumed is in most cases destroying part of what makes it useful and valuable to the body.
I used to smoke marijuana back in my younger days, and was witness to a lot of other people smoking it regularly, but I stopped once I started on a spiritual path--meditating, eating healthier, making better use of my time, etc. --because it felt to me more like smoking grass was dumbing me down and making me tired and lazy rather than giving inspiration, enjoyment or enlightenment of any kind.
For those who smoke it in order to relax, to enjoy, to "open their minds", etc. I think it can be effective up to a point, but at some point, all too often, I think it can become a psychological crutch and begin to have the opposite effect.
Whereas I have much higher hopes for cannabis products in their more natural state, such as full spectrum whole hemp extract.

[Chester]

I believe marijuana should be legal... stated in many of my posts. Legal or not, there are risks to smoking marijuana... and I haven't even touched dabs.

I believe the public would benefit from knowing the risks. The corporations pushing legalization have a massively funded suppression campaign of the facts. Anyone here remember Big Tobacco?

That's the bottom line and the heart of all my posts. People almost always believe what they want to believe and sometimes at their own peril. I know a member of this forum who I care for who, in my most sincere and humble opinion, could benefit from putting it down until their other significant issues no longer dominate their life... issues that Jerry Marzinsky confirmed to me just a few days ago can indeed be exacerbated by smoking marijuana. That was the whole purpose of the thread. Written by sharing my own experience and my solution.

[Tam]

Glad to see this thread is up and active. I think this is an important discussion that needs to be had, in light of the inevitability of national legalization in the US in the next <5 years. (I’d put money on it being by 2021)

I have quite a bit to say here, so I’ll do so in 2 separate posts. I’m a rambler, after all 😊 Yes, this is going to be a super, super long post (as usual), so grab a snack, make some tea, and get comfortable. You're gonna be here awhile.

This post is more or less in direct response to post #22 by Sammy, though it does also somewhat address those preceding it as well.

I’ll start by saying that, while I am very much pro-marijuana, I don’t think it’s the answer to the world’s problems, nor is it perfect or risk-free. It’s not for everyone. And it certainly shouldn’t be used by minors, at least not on any regular basis (a birthday or Christmas low-THC joint to share with friends is about where I’d limit it). Smoking in any shape or form is harmful, and while marijuana is in no way addictive, people do get attached to it and overuse (as they can with anything, from hamburgers to cocaine).

I say this as a regular user of marijuana, and someone who espouses its many benefits. It can and has saved or significantly improved many lives. It helps people with depression and anxiety function on a day-to-day basis without having to resort to dangerous pills. It helps people with chronic pain, veterans with PTSD and no one to talk to, and I have no doubt that long-term, it makes most people wiser, more compassionate, and introspective. It’s certainly not a gateway drug (I’d argue Adderall and booze are more along those lines), and the reefer madness propaganda of the 50s-70s is outright bull****.

I also have to disagree with the notion that there’s a lack of education and awareness of the negatives of marijuana among young people.

While there has been an increase in incidents, quite a few of us are well aware of its pros and cons and don’t zealously defend it to even the smallest iota of criticism. Something to keep in mind as a general rule in life is that just because a certain group is the loudest, doesn’t mean it’s the majority.

I do think there should be marijuana ed in legal states, so teens (who will always and forever pursue what they shouldn’t, nobody can help it) can make informed decisions about marijuana due to information that is freely delivered in an unbiased and scientific way, rather than the sensationalistic, fabricated fearmongering that every student is subjected to when it’s time for drug education. Every kid knows the anti-weed crap is a crock of paranoid, delusional bull****, and this has the opposite effect on teenagers. Rebellious as they are, they totally dismiss it all and tend to go all out on cheap, crappy weed without inhibition. And crappy weed has all kinds of problems. No one should smoke it, ever.

Good weed, on the other hand, offers a laundry list of benefits, and I encourage those who have never tried to dabble with an experienced, responsible friend. Unless you have any history of schizophrenia in your family, or an addictive personality. Definitely do not use it if this applies to you

Like all good things, marijuana needs to be used in moderation, and there’s the modern issue of most of it having way, way, way too high of a THC ratio. This has only gotten worse with legalization, as growers’ main demographic are daily users who are constantly increasing their tolerance to exceedingly high levels. So of course it's in their best financial interest, as a business, to cater to the customer's needs. This is very slowly beginning to change, though.

For readers who have access to Netflix, I recommend checking out their series, Explained, and checking out the “Weed” episode. It does a great job of explaining this problem more in-depth.

Since I can’t legally share this video here, however, I’ll instead share a related anecdote. This is where things are going to get wordy. Hope your snacks are ready to go. This would be a good time to check on your tea.

The high-THC problem, in my opinion, is clearly why we’re seeing increased cases of psychosis, as the weed you buy at dispensaries nowadays is not the same weed my parents would have smoked in the 80s, or even before that. This is becoming more and more of an issue, as many people, myself included, want to have mellower, more relaxing highs, yet bud that fits that profile is becoming harder and harder to find. We also don’t yet know the long-term effects of this modern, manmade superweed. There hasn’t really been anything quite like in in our known history.

This, to me, is what’s dangerous, and I’ll explain why. (Please note: I don’t think it should be banned. I’m of the opinion that all drugs should be decriminalized and people free to ingest whatever the hell it is they want. But I digress)

I started smoking when I was 20 (I’m 23 now). I have had periods where I would smoke 5x+ a day for weeks/months, and periods where I wouldn’t smoke at all for weeks/months.

On average, I’d say I regularly hit the pipe once or twice per evening, to sort of unwind and mellow out. Every quarter or so, I’d take a 2-6 week tolerance break, to help clear out my mind (marijuana does cause short-term memory issues while trace amounts of THC remain in your system, as well as REM issues, as others have noted) as well as help me be more efficient in my use of precious flower. Due to the fact that I live in a prohibition state, I had no choice but to get my supply from a dealer, and as such, had no say in what strain I go, nor any knowledge on how it was grown. However, I always made sure to invest in quality bud, that (supposedly) was either homegrown or occasionally smuggled from dispensaries in Colorado or California.

This is important to understand, as it means I’ve had a wide range or strains of varying strength. I never had any issues with any of my experiences; while there were batches here and there I was less fond of, it was a personal preference thing. I never had anxiety or paranoia. The only negative side-effect is that I always got hardcore munchies, and therefore had to make a concerted effort not to eat copious amounts of food (and frequently failed).

I’ve also had the chance to get legal weed in different forms from legal states, and I only had positive experiences to report.

Last month, my family and I visited California, and given that we’re a 4/20 friendly family, we hit up the local dispensary to see what they had to offer. After getting a few joints and a small pack of gummy edibles (which I’ve had experiences with before), we went on our merry way. The joints took longer than expected to get through as they packed quite a punch, so at the end of our week, we still had the pack of edibles left, and we didn’t want to waste it. So we were at the airport in California, about an hour and a half early, waiting in the terminal, when my parents and I split the edibles and each took our dose. My sister took none as she's only 18 and also has no interest.

Now, I want to reiterate, I consider myself a seasoned friend of marijuana. I’ve smoked full, fat joints at social gatherings, taken several sizeable hits from bongs in one session, smoked hash, etc. It also wasn’t my first rodeo taking edibles at an airport. Last time we were in California, we did the same thing, and I had a great time. I remember being baked at the terminal, sitting at the window overlooking the runway, absolutely fascinated by the airplanes taking off and landing, eating crappy, overpriced airport Mexican food (which was goddamned delicious given my state). It was very obvious I was high as kite (though I was very quiet), and I didn’t have a care in the world as I was in a euphoric, childlike state of wonder. I remember hearing all the sounds of people and rolling luggage around me, and how musical it sounded. I was giggling like an idiot the whole time. It was lovely. I had taken 3 small edible marshamallows, totaling about 20 mg of premium quality, <40% THC sativa.

This experience was nothing like that.

This batch was about 60% THC, sativa, 20-25 mg (there’s always wiggle room on edible dosage). I popped my gummies, and within 30 minutes, I started feeling the effects. It was all standard; I was jubilant, everything was hilarious, munchies were starting to hit, I was relaxed, yet still alert. All good signs. I was in a good state of mind.

Then, as edibles tend to do, it hit me like a truck out of nowhere.

Now, I’m aware that high doses of certain strains of marijuana can cause light, quasi-hallucinatory effects. I knew of this, though I had never experienced it firsthand. I knew people who had, and their stories were interesting, but nothing like what I was about to be subjected to (so I was ignorant to the potential marijuana had; I underestimated it. This is key). Words will never adequately explain the feeling, but I am going to do my best.

First, though, you’re going to need some relevant, boring details.

The layout of the terminal we were in was a huge dome, with hallways intersecting it perpendicular to one another. The building was 3 floors (underground, ground floor, second floor). The hallways/corridors were constantly high in traffic, as people that would disembark planes would head down them to get their luggage in one direction, and in the other direction, oncoming travelers met at the center of the dome, to await their flights. The central circle was huge, it probably had 3,000 people in it at any given time, and it was a wide open space, with all the gates to planes on one side, food stalls on the other (which circled around the outer perimeter), and in between, rows and rows of chairs. It was very busy, very loud, and there were frequent messages on the intercom. There was no way out of this place; it was on the second floor, and the nearest non-emergency exit was a 5-minute walk down the long, busy hallway, past security, and even then, you’d be in the middle of a heavily-serviced loading/unloading/shuttle zone in the heart of the airport, which went on for a few miles in both directions. It was more or less a fortress.

Still with me? Good.

Anyway, the edibles hit me, hard, and it was totally unlike anything I had ever experienced in my life.

It started with my brain being totally incapable of filtering and tuning out all the background noise. Suddenly, every little sound could be heard clearly. My hearing was enhanced to a degree that was almost superhuman. And this made me anxious.

Imagine all the hundreds of sounds that come from being in a giant glass and concrete room with 2,000+ people. Talking, eating, arguing, typing on laptops, children playing, music in the background, intercom, rolling luggage, janitors cleaning, etc. My hearing was so acute that I could make out, crystal clear, individual conversations that were happening ~50 feet away. And there was absolutely no way to stop it, no way to tune it out. It was beyond my control. Every last little sound.

And it was getting more and more amplified every second, as my hearing got increasingly sensitive, and everything bounced off the glass dome and off the walls. It was a very echoey room.

An important detail that I think is relevant, is that I have ADD. So already, I have trouble ignoring things. My brain goes 500 mph when I’m in a quiet room by myself, and weed usually helps slow that down. Not this time. It was impossible, there was way too much going on.

Within about 2 minutes, it was all too much. I was experiencing what those on the autistic spectrum call sensory overload, and it was horrible.

I felt the ugly, familiar feeling of a nasty anxiety attack creeping up, and I absolutely had to get the hell away from this deafeningly loud, chaotic place. But there was no way out. I was in an airport. 60 feet above a concrete runway. I had nowhere to go. With that realization came an intense wave of claustrophobia.

I got up briskly and told my father I was having a severe anxiety attack, and that I needed him to take me somewhere quiet, as I was rapidly spiraling into a hyperventilating, cold-sweat, vertigo state. My heart rate was through the roof.

So he calmly walks me, by the arm, to a little area about 20 feet away where phone booths once were, so it was a sort of box. It was still loud as all hell, but it was about 30% quieter, so it was enough to calm me down as I closed my eyes, hands over my ears like an insane person (of which I was painfully aware), and tried to control my breathing. I kind of meditated, best I could, while he stood in front of me, muffling as much sound as possible. After a few minutes of this, the anxiety attack subsided, and I borrowed my mom’s noise cancelling headphones and sat back in the central eating area, eyes closed, just trying to maintain my heart rate and forget about the fact that I was stuck in an airport, higher than I’ve ever been in all my life, soon to board a f*cking airplane, and just starting to feel the effects of an edible the lady at the dispensary told me would “last hours and hours”.

And then it really kicked in.

Suddenly, I was seeing beautiful, colorful, kaleidoscopic mandalas when I had my eyes closed. Undulating, ebbing geometric patterns. I could feel the blood flowing in my veins, my lungs pumping oxygen, my heart beating a little too fast, and other things I can't really remember. I was not expecting it, and it threw me completely.

I made the mistake of opening my eyes, and colors were weirdly enhanced. Everything was faintly luminescent. I was extremely disoriented, and I was rapidly losing all physical sensation. My field of vision was growing. I could see more, farther out. Every second, things were getting exponentially more and more intense. I started to become hypersensitive to movement of any kind. I could clearly feel every little vibration, from footsteps to the rumbling of planes, almost like bass from a subwoofer.

It wasn’t unpleasant, but it was extremely intense, and I was in the worst possible place to experience something like this for the first time, without having any idea it was even possible.I was not aware marijuana could do this. I totally underestimated it.

It was as if my 5 senses were magnified tenfold and no longer limited to my physical body. I could feel everything, on an energetic level, which is impossible to fully convey in language.

At this point, another anxiety attack started to come on. A big one. And with my new, enhanced state, it was a whole new thing, a totally different caliber of awful.

And that's when it peaked. I got hit with what I believe was a temporary psychic opening of the floodgates.

I could feel the emotions and thoughts of every last person within a 50 foot radius or so, which means I was feeling hundreds of people. I could see waves of energy coming off everything like heat on asphalt.

At this point, I’m losing my perception of time as well, but in a really weird way. I pulled out my phone to try and put on soft music to distract myself from all the visual and psychic noise, and the 2 seconds it took to do that took about 15 in terms of my perception of time itself. I swear to god, I was seeing everything in slow motion. Even though I felt my hand move in “real-time”, my eyes saw it happen at about 25% speed, to a point where it left a tracer trail, which pulsated.

And the phone. My god, the phone. It just gave off a horrible energy. The blue light was painfully, blindingly bright. It felt hypnotic, and sort of possessively, energetically loud in a way I can’t explain, but was very much negative. It freaked me out, so I immediately put it away, which happened at normal speed (time was all over the place), and to my horror, about 80% of people in the room were on one device or another. And I'm telling you, I could feel the radiation from each and every one of them, and it felt jarringly unnatural. Where the energy coming off people had a certain flow to it, the energy coming off electronics was just…different. Synthetic. Heavy. Then I looked up, and saw the 30 televisions, and noticed they didn’t give off the same energy, and it was then I realized that I was only feeling this from mobile devices.

And it scared the **** out of me, because everyone was just clearly addicted to them, glued to their phones, and I knew in that moment that it was already too late to save us from it, that AI and the singularity was an inevitable certainty, and we were going to welcome it with open arms. All of this I had thought of before on many occasions. It doesn't take a genius to see this. In that moment, though, I understood, in a flash second, every implication of this oncoming revolution, on every level. It wasn’t so much an epiphany as it was a sort of vision, without actually seeing anything. I can’t really adequately explain it, but I knew it was all designed to keep us docile, that it was having a weird effect on people on every conceivable level, and that the war against us was already lost. We had collectively bit the hook, if you would. I know all of this is more or less easy to think about, it's hardly a groundbreaking revelation, but what I felt and knew was so much more than that. I can't really describe it. The closest thing I can compare it to is when Neo wakes up in the vat of gel in the Matrix, and sees the endless pods. It obviously wasn't that, but it was an equally horrifying, new layer of reality I was suddenly feeling, and somehow, technology was really, really disrupting it.

All of this in a split second, while in the midst of an anxiety attack, under which I was being just inundated with a torrential downpour of psychic noise.

This is the precise moment where I went from severely anxious to having a full blown panic attack. It took every last ounce of willpower in me not to throw up right then and there, and lay under the chairs in the fetal position sobbing like a baby. I don’t like attention, though, so I was trying, very, very hard to keep it together. But I also couldn’t stay in that central room. It was just way too much, like being in the ocean during a hurricane.

So this time I tell my mother, I need to get the hell out. I need to move. I can’t stay here. A small part of me was also aware we had to board a plane in about 30 minutes, and there was absolutely no way in a billion years that I could stand being cramped into a tiny seat in a tiny steel tube for 3 and a half hours, way up in the sky, with 300 people (it was a full flight). Knowing that didn’t help things.

So she whisks me away, tries to distract me by starting small talk, but for some reason, I was having a very hard time with speech and language in general. There were snippets where I couldn’t understand a word she was saying, not because she wasn’t speaking clearly, but because my brain was having trouble processing words and it was being rewired as gibberish. She walked me around the outer perimeter, and we took a large elevator reserved for the handicapped and employees, and it was instant relief. I was shut off from the world, and things got a lot more quiet, a lot more still, which confirmed my theory that I was feeling everyone and every device’s energy. We rode up and down for about 10 minutes, before we had to walk back to begin the boarding process. Thankfully, that meant we got to sit in one of the gate areas, which was a long, rectangular room jutting out from the dome with a much lower ceiling, so things were significantly quieter. Less people, less noise. But I still having intense visual experiences, time was still weird, I could still feel the emotions and thoughts of the 3 airplanes worth of people around me, and it was still just too much. I was able to handle it, somewhat, but was still totally overwhelming. All I could do was close my eyes, hold my head in my hands, and silently cry. Turns out, most people at airports aren’t in a very good mood, and I was feeling the full force of all that negativity on an energetic level that was so intense, I could feel it physically. I guess the only way my body could get rid of all that excess energy was through tears. I think that may be why we cry; it's a biological cleansing/balancing mechanism.Salt and water are used in a lot of rituals, so it kind of makes sense.

Anway, I was still having anxiety attacks, randomly. They were very strong, and I was constantly on the verge of having a full-on mental breakdown. The kind that would definitely have me hospitalized and hooked up to a sedative. So an instinctual defensive mechanism sort of turned itself on, and I just sat on a chair, hunched over, breathing in and out, in and out, gently, eyes shut, hands over my face, a steady stream of tears just flooding out of me. Suddenly, things what is best described as far away as I receded deep within a quiet, dark, empty place in myself. It was very calm, very still, very neutral. I was vaguely aware of people around me; a peek confirmed people were staring (some were judging me, others clearly empathetic, most just a combination of bewildered and pitying me). I was vaguely aware my mother being very, very worried about me, asking my father what was going on, what was happening, if anything could be done. My father, who’s very likely on the autism spectrum and a bit of an empath, knew exactly what I was going through, and gently informed her nothing could be done, all we had to do was leave me totally alone and just wait, which I am very thankful for, as I was in a very delicate state, and human interaction would most definitively have pushed me over the edge.

I wasn’t feeling good at all, but I was no longer having a roller coaster of back-to-back anxiety attacks (though they were always threateningly close). I was just exhausted, drained on every level, and almost totally disconnected from everything around me. All I could do was consciously focus on this silence within me, like a void, and just feel my breathing, which was anchoring me.

After what felt like an hour of this (in reality, it was about 25 minutes), I become dimly aware of the lady at the intercom making the final call to board the plane. She was naming the missing 4 passengers, and they were us. She must have warned us at least 3 times, but I just could not, could not move. If I did, I was going to lose my grip on things entirely.

One of my parents gently informed me we had to go now, we couldn’t wait any longer (they graciously extended the final call for several extra minutes, as anyone could plainly see I was not doing well at all). I didn’t want to fly, but more than that, I didn’t want to make anyone miss the flight. I also didn’t want to get on the plane only to have a total meltdown and cause a full-on delay or emergency u-turn on the runway, which I was pretty sure was still a significant possibility.

In the end, I was able to board the plane. As the universe tends to have a sense of humor, I had the luck of being sat directly behind a screaming baby whose frantic parents were unable to calm. It was too much, as I was still very, very high, and very, very empathic.

Interestingly, I knew why the baby was crying; she was teething, and she was in a lot of pain. She was also scared of this weird new place, and she could feel the frustration and desperation of her parents, and was confused. I also knew she was a she, even though I never saw her.

I couldn’t handle it, and I was starting to relapse, hard, and I had to get the hell off the plane because I just couldn’t be sat behind that baby for 3 hours. My mom picked up on it immediately, and somehow, strings were pulled, decisions were made, and the flight attendants made people move around and switch seats, so that my mother and I were as far away from the baby as possible, which meant we were upgraded to business class. I don’t remember much; the whole process took a while, as people were being uncooperative. Part of me was mortified as every last person in that plane knew who I was, what was happening, yet I was still in a sort of haze, eyes, closed, still crying. I could feel everyone watching me, and what they thought of me. The emotion I felt most clearly from people was empathy combined with minor annoyance, not at me personally, but at the delay I was causing. We were most certainly leaving later than scheduled. Which mortified my even more, since I know one plane delay means 20 plane delays, and people missing flights. All of this just compounded on my anxiety.

Fortunately, the peak of the high was behind me, and the rest of the plane ride (which passed in the blink of an eye, thank god) was more or less calm. I’m pretty sure I had moments where I could hear people’s thoughts, crazy as it sounds. I was in that same semi-dissociative state the whole time.

I came very, very close to having a psychotic break that day. If I weren’t fortunate enough to 1) Be educated enough to somewhat understand what was happening and know it was all temporary, and 2) Be with a very understanding, supportive family, I have no doubt I would have been hospitalized that day, perhaps even at a psychiatric ward.


I can only imagine the effects such a strong high would have on someone without these cards in their favor. A person who neither knew what was happening, or that it was temporary, or that had people around them that could help without the fear of punishment coming soon after.

While it was a traumatic experience, it was also a cathartic one, and I came out stronger for it. Had I been hit at home, or the hotel, I think it would have been very different. While I’m curious to try it again, I have no doubt it was a mini-trip, and not something to be taken lightly.

I will say, however, that I think these kind of experiences are important for a lot of people to have, and will ultimately lead to the evolution of humanity. I don’t think what I experienced came from a lower vibration or anything like that; in psychedelics, set and setting are the most important thing, and I was in the absolute worst setting. I also had no idea or suspicion that it was coming, so it caught me totally off-guard.

If used in a way where you know and expect it to come, understand what you’ll be feeling, and are in a safe place with sober, responsible people that are here to help, I think it would have been a very positive thing.

I could write a lot more on what I gleaned from that experience, but in terms of what’s relevant to this thread, I learned something simple: it’s something best used sporadically.

I haven’t touched any marijuana since. It’s been like 5 weeks. I have had no desire to, which is good, since I was verging on starting to overuse. I think that was a necessary experience, it showed me what I can do if used irresponsibly, as I did.

I do plan on partaking again soon. I’m curious to see if I will have different experiences now, as I’ve heard some people say once you have an anxious high, it’s like a switch that can’t be unflipped and anxiety becomes a frequent and guaranteed side effect of anything more than light use.

In any case, I don’t plan on smoking daily for months at a time. I’ll likely end up doing light sessions on weekends, one small hit or two some evenings, with long breaks between each cycle. This seems the healthiest way.

My next post will be much shorter and will address some concerns/points in this thread. Thanks for reading.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I just finished my half price dope yesterday. It was mostly sattiva (spellcheck never heard of this word, not sure one 't' or two) strain. Back to my local guy. This stuff tastes like ****! But it has a nasty kick to it.

Talking about paranoia, I cannot take mushrooms because they freak me out and I can't function. Any other drug I've tried has been a delightful trip but never mushrooms. My personal favorite was acid but it is too strong for everyday use, duh. Haven't tried that in over forty years - wouldn't mind finding a hit to try it again.

Alcohol is my bane. I hate drinking. Two beers and I am a write-off for any activity I might want to pursue. I can't read, write, do any project work, or even think. It is most annoying. When I go out for a drink that day is a loss. And then the struggle to get home, spinning and constantly needing to pee, makes the ride intermittent as I must debark and find a private spot outdoors to relieve myself. It is no fun the day after either.

So for me, a hard core drug user, but not an addict, dope is just like mother's milk. Full of good things and sweet memories.

I have quit certain drugs because I could hold the after-effects in my mind to overcome the addiction part - like crack, after becoming broke from free-basing. The downside was so dark and demoralizing that eventually just the thought of going through it again was enough to stop me from ever doing it again. I've lost friends who were not as fortunate. Because when I decide something, all actors opposed are gotten rid of...

[Caliban]

Hey Tam,


that's a wild, terrible experience you had in the airport. The only way it could have been worse is if your family hadn't been around to see you through it. Imagine if you were alone or had some clueless friends around you? So, your fam should get lots of chocolate for a long time to come.

You know, Joe Rogan and especially Joey Diaz talk a lot about the STRENGTH of the edibles they sell in the stores in Cali. On Joey's podcast he's actually had guests (usually comedians) who, like you, became incapacitated, had to lie down and could not continue to do the show. And that's from only taking a piece of an edible. If you search it you could find out how edibles are of a different chemical compound than THC or perhaps it just breaks down in the body differently to give a much more powerful high. It's hard to believe they'll just sell this stuff to anyone. No warnings, nothing.... It sounds more like an LSD trip to me and it might just verge on that.

You got through it. I know what's it's like, though not in an airport. Whew. And you tell it well. As you said, the weed around now is not your parents' (or my) weed from the '80s. You can't smoke this, many joints/bong hits, as we smoked our stuff. People have to learn. But these shops do bear some responsibility for educating their customers.

(P.S. - Your perception of people totally addicted to the AI/phones? I've been there. It really is stunning to see that when you're very high. Very sad. Just like the glasses in They Live)

[Dennis Leahy]

Tam, wow! How scary. Sounds more like 250mg than 25mg (for someone with regular cannabis intake.) Yoiks!

Patients fighting cancer with cannabis oil need to keep increasing the tolerable dose day after day in stages, and many have experienced an "overdose" at some point, and describe experiences kind of sort of in the realm of what you went through. (Well, your writing was so descriptive, that it sounds maybe more intense than usual.)

When THC goes into the blood stream, the first circulation cycle you have THC in your blood. At some point, the liver metabolizes the THC and changes it into 11-hydroxy-THC (11-OH-THC), which has an even more powerful psychoactive effect than THC (and is not known to be medicinal, but I haven't seen that it has gotten much scrutiny.) For a cannabis oil patient, the protocol is to take some coconut oil about a half hour before ingesting the THC-rich cannabis oil. This "keeps the liver busy" and so the liver is much less efficient at metabolizing the THC into 11-OH-THC.

(I don't think this would have helped you), but if a patient (or non-patient) gets too high, they can bite down on a peppercorn - that releases chemicals that attenuate/kill the buzz. There is also an herbal tincture based substance called BuzzKill that someone can take if they get too high. I overdosed on cannabis oil the first time I made oil (for skin cancer) and decarbed it properly... and tested it on myself cavalierly. If the idea of having your brain doing somersaults and projectile vomiting is your idea of a good time, just make cannabis oil, decarb it once incorrectly so nothing happens when you try some, and then decarb it correctly and try even more, hell, lick the pan.

My defense of cannabis comes along with warnings. Most of cannabinoid medicine (I predict) will be from non-psychoactive cannabinoids, and/or low doses "microdoses" of cannabis preparations with a variety of cannabinoids including THC but where the THC is below the threshold of bothersome CNS involvement. (Cancer and some other major conditions/diseases will continue to see THC being the major therapeutic component.)

I agree there needs to be fair warning and education about cannabis, though the people who need to get the message probably don't trust the same government that unfairly demonized the plant to now give out the truth. The old Cheech and Chong movies give the impression a person could inhale an enormous amount of cannabis smoke. Maybe they could have with the 1970's cannabis at perhaps an average of 3% THC levels, but modern breeders have made sure that very average cannabis is 10% to 15% THC, and top shelf at the dispensary range from 20% to near 30% THC. A few puffs of 25% THC cannabis to a "newbie" (low tolerance) could drop a big guy on the couch, and wouldn't be that 'kick back', de-stressing, or mood elevating experience that was the plan. Edibles are even more unpredictable in how a person will react (the edibles I have seen do have warnings.) But if there was a warning, who would the big guy have believed? Maybe you should record a Public Service Announcement while it is fresh in your mind.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Denis, that thing about projectile vomiting...

I was violently ill last week. My insides emptied right out from both sides. I never get sick like that. then I remembered the night before my friend had given me a cookie laced with pot. It was terrible but I ate it anyway. Thought nothing of it again. It didn't seem to do anything.

On the way home on the bus I suddenly felt ill and had to get off to find a quiet corner to throw up in. Then I continued my journey. I went to sleep and woke up a few hours later sick as heck.

Lately I've had a weak stomach, feel light-headed, get nausea when I bend over, and am very tired all the time.

I am thinking it might be time to take a hiatus again from dope...

[Valerie Villars]

Ernie, I doubt it was the dope, if it really was marijuana. It may have been laced with something that was not pot. Or an ingredient in the cookie itself.

Never, in all my years, have I thrown up due to ingestion of marijuana. I've lost my cookies with alcohol or other substances combined with marijuana, but not from the marijuana itself.

[Ratszinger]

Denis, that thing about projectile vomiting...

I was violently ill last week. My insides emptied right out from both sides. I never get sick like that. then I remembered the night before my friend had given me a cookie laced with pot. It was terrible but I ate it anyway. Thought nothing of it again. It didn't seem to do anything.

On the way home on the bus I suddenly felt ill and had to get off to find a quiet corner to throw up in. Then I continued my journey. I went to sleep and woke up a few hours later sick as heck.

Lately I've had a weak stomach, feel light-headed, get nausea when I bend over, and am very tired all the time.

I am thinking it might be time to take a hiatus again from dope...

It wasn't the pot that did that to you it was one of the ingredients in the cookie mix. Probably rancid butter or bad vanilla extract but I doubt it was the pot.

[Tam]

Dennis, thank you for the advice, I'll keep the tips in my repertoire should this ever happen to me or anyone I encounter again. I'll be very careful not to let it happen to me again, though. It was horrible.

You can "overdose" from marijuana and it can cause vomitting, but you have to take a LOT for that to happen. Like, an excessive amount. Though with edibles it's easy to do that. Still, I think it may have been an ingredient as well. Were you taking any medications as well?

I'll be making a post later today to kickstart some discuasion about overlooked aspects to cannabis usage, mainly those with metaphysical/spiritual implications. Just need to do a bit of research first.

[Ernie Nemeth]

The cookie was terrible, and my internal alarm went off but I ignored it - wat too much nutmeg for one - and hard as a rock!

[Dennis Leahy]

Ernie, I doubt it was the dope, if it really was marijuana. It may have been laced with something that was not pot. Or an ingredient in the cookie itself.

Never, in all my years, have I thrown up due to ingestion of marijuana. I've lost my cookies with alcohol or other substances combined with marijuana, but not from the marijuana itself.
Yes, I think it would be hard to ingest enough cannabis to make you vomit from cannabis.

My experience with making cannabis oil is illustrative of the problem of getting the heating process done correctly to alter the chemistry. The plant matter has the cannabinoids in a non-activated state, the acid form (such as THCa and CBDa.) Upon heating within a time and temperature dependent window, the warmed cannabinoids (such as THCa) lose the part of the acid form of the molecule - a carboxyl group - to become the activated form (such as THC.) Further heating past the optimum time and temperature further alters the cannabinoid molecules - for example, THCa becomes THC which then becomes CBN (a non-psychoactive cannabinoid without much known medicinal properties other than maybe as a sleep aid.)

Even when someone has studied the process and is attempting to carefully use typical kitchen equipment to activate the cannabinoids, they may fail - either by not activating many of the cannabinoid molecules or by going too far and basically destroying the known and studied cannabinoids that were the goal. (My first attempt at performing the decarb process using a kitchen stove and oven thermometer, on oil that I had extracted, was a failure - the cannabinoids were not activated. I ended up buying a fancy digital induction hotplate that could hold a temperature about +- 5°C. That worked.)

For a home cook making cannabis edibles, you also really have to think the mixing process through carefully, to ensure that the cannabinoids are pretty evenly distributed. I would think that the process of making commercial THC-infused edibles has that step down pat, but I do have to wonder if Tam got more than 25mg, or (like CBD) if some edibles use overly-refined cannabinoids, such as pure fractionally distilled THC. What I'm describing here should point to erratic results and unpredictable potency in home-made edibles (which is true), but also underscoring that commercial edibles should be relatively close in dosage (but Tam's experience sorta points to -at least the possibility of- lack of quantitative QC.)

[Mike]

i barfed after smoking a blunt once. this was at a party i hosted quite a long time ago. i recall while smoking it that it felt like i was eating the thing. anybody that has been around the block a few times has mindlessly picked up a half empty soda or beer can in the morning after a rough night and began slugging it only to realize it was full of blunt wrappers and tobacco and possibly spit and god knows what else. well it tasted like that.

it reminded of the first time i had chewing tobacco. first i sort of liked it, then i began sweating, then i got dizzy, then nauseous, then i yakked all over the f#cking place. then i wished i was dead.

my buddy jim, who i was smoking it with, called when he got home to report that he was throwing up all over his driveway. it kept coming and coming. 'dude', he said, 'i wish i was dead.' 'i know dude', i said. 'i know.'

i was barfing on the floor next to my bed when he called. it just took everything out of me.. i didn't have the energy to clean it up, but i had just enough energy to lay there and be annoyed that i didn't have the energy to clean it up. it was something like barf purgatory. i recall laying there on my bed, all splayed out, like christ on the cross, sweating and nauseous, the thudding of the music and the drunken voices from the party drifting in from the family room, with that steaming pile of puke sitting there..mocking me. my greatest fear at that time was that i'd be discovered there in such an undignified state, so i tried to reach over and lock my door. that was my last memory. i never made it. fell off my bed apparently. the next morning i awoke huddled up in the fetal position, on the floor, my arm coated in puke and half digested bits of barbecue flavored fritos

[Gracy]

i barfed after smoking a blunt once. this was at a party i hosted quite a long time ago. i recall while smoking it that it felt like i was eating the thing. anybody that has been around the block a few times has mindlessly picked up a half empty soda or beer can in the morning after a rough night and began slugging it only to realize it was full of blunt wrappers and tobacco and possibly spit and god knows what else. well it tasted like that.

Always love your stories Mike! That's a highly unusual reaction, unless from mine and others experiences, it's smoked after excessive drinking. Did you have a lot to drink first that night?

There are other weird things that don't normally happen, but they are rare, like happened to me a one of my first concerts, a RUSH concert back around 1978. I didn't have a license or a car yet, me and my best girlfriend really really really wanted to see the show in Louisville, so I got my dad to drive us there.

My dad just hung out outside, so we were free to be wild kids lol! Just before the opening act came on I bought a small joint from a cool seeming guy in front of us in stand only near the stage, my girlfriend didn't want any but I did, as the band came on stage though my brain started to feel like frying bacon, I thought I was watching Jimi Hendrix on stage, the stage lights and strobe lights started overwhelming my visual senses, and next thing you know I just had to sit down in the middle of that huge crowd.

It all suddenly became overwhelming like spinning off inti The Twilight Zone.

I was Uncomfortably Numb...

I was in my own little world from then on out. The opening band got done, the lights came on for intermission, and at the prodding of all the others around me I made it back to my feet for the RUSH intro, but I just couldn't handle the intense sensory input. All I could do was sit there in the middle of thousands of people standing and screaming all around me, listen, and try ever so hard to try and keep my s**t together.

As they came on for the last song nothing had changed. I was hoping time would ebb away at whatever this strange influence was doing to me, but no go. As panic welled up within me all I could think was "how am I going to face dad like this? I'm SO friggin obviously wasted and busted!!!" Omg...

And then the miracle happened. Soon as the encore was over, the lights came on and suddenly it all washed away like waking up from a bad dream. And just in time! I was suddenly able to get up like nothing had ever happened, go find my dad, and everything was cool.

In hindsight, I think what happened, was that little skinny joint was laced with a bit of PCP which was still big back in that day, and which I would never do! Regular pot doesn't do that to even a dumb kid who has already smoked it a few times.


My overall opinion of it as a responsible adult now? It should be legalized just like alcohol.

[Mike]

Hi Gracy May, thank you, and I enjoyed your story too! (Do your friends call you Gracy for short? RUSH is an underrated band btw. That drummer can't be from this earth. You were a teenager in '78? I would have never guessed it. You look about 30 in your picture there)

Yes, I was drinking that night I threw up. That could have been it, possibly. But I almost never drink to the point of puking. Perhaps it was the combination of the 2. Not sure. Then again, I've drank and smoked in the same night before and since several times and never that type of reaction.

In very small doses, I've always enjoyed weed. My buddy Mike used to smoke these enormous bombers, one after another, and I'd get a pleasant high just by being in the room with him for a few hours.

I've never been a drug man, but I dabbled here n there as a younger guy. I never really wanted to escape life...i preferred the substances that made me engage it even more. I never much cared for a feeling of losing control and letting go. It frightened me. If anything, I wanted more control. Beer always made me feel sharp and aware and in control, despite its reputation for making people careless.

But yeah, I agree with ya ...weed should be legalized everywhere imo.

[Dennis Leahy]

In high school, around 1971, I smoked a puff of a hand-rolled cigarette from India, called something like "Sherbidi." I made my friend stop the car and let me out to puke. My head was swimming and I was sweating...

Nicotine!

[Chester]

My defense of cannabis comes along with warnings.

Good



I agree there needs to be fair warning and education about cannabis, though the people who need to get the message probably don't trust the same government that unfairly demonized the plant to now give out the truth. The old Cheech and Chong movies give the impression a person could inhale an enormous amount of cannabis smoke. Maybe they could have with the 1970's cannabis at perhaps an average of 3% THC levels, but modern breeders have made sure that very average cannabis is 10% to 15% THC, and top shelf at the dispensary range from 20% to near 30% THC. A few puffs of 25% THC cannabis to a "newbie" (low tolerance) could drop a big guy on the couch, and wouldn't be that 'kick back', de-stressing, or mood elevating experience that was the plan. Edibles are even more unpredictable in how a person will react (the edibles I have seen do have warnings.) But if there was a warning, who would the big guy have believed? Maybe you should record a Public Service Announcement while it is fresh in your mind.

Really good comment... I am 62 (I sense in your generation, Dennis) and I never trusted "the man" (cops, government, etc) and totally get your point. I think the thing that bothers me is that with all the positive information about all the things good that can come from the plant (I always called it marijuana as I always liked the word)... but yes, cannabis is a fine word that, to me, points to the same thing... that all the good things seem to be all "the powers that be" who stand to make huge profits on it want us to hear.

The sad thing about our world, the greed, etc. is that Big Marijuana isn't fighting the good fight for the common folk, they are fighting to make their companies a pile of money and because they are so well funded... well, you know how all that goes.

Just one example... if you look at the pot dispensaries in Denver, did you know there are more of those than McDonald's and Starbucks combined? But that's just a statistic... the really sad thing is the highest concentration of these are in the low income neighborhoods and that, to me, suggests exploitation of the vulnerable. "Thank you, Big Marijuana for showing how much you care."

I think my OP and first few posts were my public service announcement inspired to be written because of someone I care about that I hoped might read it and... if other factors fell into place, might seek a break whereby all the "targeted experiences" might subside (operative word "might"). Only written from the heart.

[amor]

I have read my way through all of this and there is no mention of the following: 1. Having had the experience of hiring workmen who were using the marijuana during their lunch break, etc., I discovered that their very RED EYES caused by broken capillaries resulted from smoking this weed and that IT SMELLED JUST AWFUL, LIKE THE POISON IT IS TO THE BODY. Now the brain must be full of blood vessels. You can therefore understand why some of these men. smoking since teenagers, had little to no math ability. One of these men was graduating from Weed to the use of CRACK. A perfect example of what the Government is planning for all the children, to round out the Genocide being worked on this Planet. I think the Senators and Representatives of the House should indulge so that we can get rid of them all and replace them with people who are untempted by alcohol, drugs, forbidden sex, bribery and ongoing corruption from State to National levels. That would lead to hope for America. The Democrats already appear to have been imbibing in all of the above and are hopefully not long for this world. I suggest the Linden Larouche Party. I am certain his Ghost is waiting in the Wings of the Whitehouse to Direct.

[Gracy]

Hi Gracy May, thank you, and I enjoyed your story too! (Do your friends call you Gracy for short? RUSH is an underrated band btw. That drummer can't be from this earth. You were a teenager in '78? I would have never guessed it. You look about 30 in your picture there)

Hi Mike. Yes my friends and family call me Gracy for short, and yes lol, I was a teenager in 1978. I'm 57 now. and yes, you were very close on your guess of how old I was in that picture.


Yes, I was drinking that night I threw up. That could have been it, possibly. But I almost never drink to the point of puking. Perhaps it was the combination of the 2. Not sure. Then again, I've drank and smoked in the same night before and since several times and never that type of reaction.

What I began to discover at an early age going through my 20's was that there is a certain line, like, at a party say, where before that certain line of alcohol consumption I could take a hit off of that doob being passed around and everything would be all peaches and roses but, after a certain point doing the same would just make me dizzy and sick and need to go home sleepy by.

I reckon we learn to moderate as we go along huh?

[amor]

My life stopped involving "parties" which were always functions of polite decorum just in time. Thereafter, the life of people seems to have descended into dope and alcohol and sex. However, since I am 80 and still glued together and look perhaps 60, it all makes sense.

[Dennis Leahy]

...
I think my OP and first few posts were my public service announcement inspired to be written because of someone I care about that I hoped might read it and... if other factors fell into place, might seek a break whereby all the "targeted experiences" might subside (operative word "might"). Only written from the heart.
Sweet. Hope the message got delivered, and thanks for delivering it and starting this conversation. I'm a medicinally-oriented cannabis advocate, and see cannabinoid medicine as a formerly forbidden treasure chest, now opened. I do see it as also medicinal in terms of mood elevation or stabilization, but for someone already in danger of a psychotic break, THC and other psychoactive substances that could nudge a person over the edge don't make sense, whereas the non-psychoactive cannabinoid CBD does make sense. And water, proper sleep, proper nutrition, B vitamins, magnesium...

[Ernie Nemeth]

Great public service, Mike, that's laudable of you. Did your friend see this thread?

Well the news is in for the first year of legalization in Canada. The big pot growers, I think there are only one or two of them, have a glut of product. They thought they would not have enough for the anticipated surge in new buyers. Nope, the new buyers were there, sure, to give it a try but without winning over the regular users, they have no chance of success. And of course their greed got in the way and they did not compete with the black market, opting instead to keep the price point high (pardon the pun). The average user spends about $200/ounce. Not sure what the big guys were charging but it was substantially higher.

And so what can we expect next here in Canada? The crack-down on illegal growers and sellers, that's what. The police will be called on to protect the profits of the big growers. They did this with cigarettes too, after legislation failed to get smokers to buy ridiculously expensive legal smokes (went from $3 to $10 overnight). The authorities tried for a time to curb the distribution of illegal smokes from our indigenous communities who are exempt from Federal law. They were pulling transport trucks over willy-nilly looking for illegal smokes until the truckers association stepped in and complained. They objected to all truckers being treated as potential smugglers.

They stopped harassing the truckers and us long-term smokers were left with our illegal smokes sold illegally by our corner stores through the back door...because corner stores used to rely on the income from the sale of cigarettes, which I remember as being about 40% of their business. Nowadays, it is not uncommon for a corner store to not have any cigarettes at all because of the up-front cost of stocking the shelves with them.

And my guy, the whiz kid from a small rural town, has hired ten workers for the harvest! All illegal of course. And he has full time work for two workers. His list of products is impressive, his store well stocked, and customers lined up around the block, figuratively. He says he could get a license but why? He doesn't need them - they need him!

[Strat]

The only times I've vomited off weed is due to mixing it with alcohol, especially whiskey. I had one friend vomit off weed alone but we were teens and smoking out of a 4' bong we called Godzilla.

I don't smoke much these days. When I do it's during social events, my perspective on it has changed drastically. I may expand on this later, kinda busy (it's Thanksgiving!).

[Dennis Leahy]

... I never really wanted to escape life...i preferred the substances that made me engage it even more. I never much cared for a feeling of losing control and letting go. It frightened me. If anything, I wanted more control. ...

I'm like you, Mike - I don't like to lose control. With (modern, bred) cannabis, it's not as simple as the number of molecules of THC per unit weight that determines the outcome, the effect. That's because the overall chemical makeup of the plant is in play, and the terpines in the cannabis play a large role in how a person is affected.

I think that most people that experienced cannabis say, 30 years ago or more, experienced (generally speaking) the same relatively low potency plant type, with slight variances. That's not true any more. Flower breeders exponentially exploded the number of distinct varieties. Significant differences in the chemical makeup between different varieties of cannabis can yield radically different mental/emotional/physical experiences, even when the amount of THC is the same. So far (from my reading) it's obvious that the terpine ratios in the cannabis greatly affect the effect, and it's not just as simple as "sativa varieties are energetic and cerebral" and "indica varieties are sedative."

Once you start talking about varieties, the entire vibe of the conversation changes. It's really hard to hold a scientific discussion of the benefits of cannabinoids supplementing the endocannabinoid system's intrinsic output, and then mention "Girl Scout Cookies", "Green Crack", and "Durban Poison."

In my minor survey of websites and visits to a few dispensaries, I'd say the commercial growers are functioning within the capitalist system by maximizing the THC percentage of the flowers and maximizing the number of pounds of product per acre. Indica-rich hybrid varieties high in THC fit the bill, so it is most of what is commercially available. Sativa-rich hybrids take longer to grow and are "leggier" (longer stems and internodal sites) plants, with a plant chemistry producing effects that are less stony, more energizing, more social (laughing, chatting.) The effects of indica-rich hybrids are heavier, stonier, more body stone, tranquilizing, mesmerizing, pain relieving, couch locking. The general consumer is asking for bang-for-the-buck, and they are getting it. I believe that the prejudice toward "stonier" cannabis will change en masse when the consumers recognize that they actually appreciate less-stony/more-brainy cannabis, and demand it.

CBD somewhat attenuates the psychotropic effect of THC, and varieties higher in CBD can provide synergistic effects of these two compounds. (The medical cannabis field is well aware of the "entourage effect" making whole cannabis and whole extracts of cannabis exhibit synergistic effects beyond that of the laboratory isolated constituents alone.) Multiply the variety of different THC:CBD ratio cannabis varieties by thousands of different terpine profile combinations expressed by varieties, and you have an enormous amount of medical concoctions with a variety of effects, psychotropic or not.

Cannabis should not be considered as just a single substance. It's more like a vegetable stew than just any one vegetable. Different cannabis varieties have very different chemistry - and it's not just the percentage of THC.

I think that part of the fond memory of cannabis 30, 40, 50 years ago is that it wasn't so powerful. It didn't completely take over the mood, it moderately altered it. I believe the pendulum will swing back to cannabis strains that are more like 15% than 30%, and more creative and more social and less stony and less isolating varieties will become the mainstay for cannabis in social situations (and the drooling, stupefying, couch-lock cannabis is the right choice for pain, insomnia, or cancer.) Home growers will quickly realize they can grow a medicine cabinet full of named genetic varieties with rather specific desired effects, and autoflowering varieties also remove the photo-period light issues, making it much easier to grow.

This is one of the major changes I predict for the US market, once the US legalizes cannabis: less stony, more intellectually stimulating and energetic cannabis for the lion's share of the market (well, except the twenty-somethings that want the challenge of fighting off the effects of the latest, 35% THC, Death-Star-Depleted-Uranium-Zombie-Blueberry-Elephant-Tranquilizer-Jagged-Glass-Shards Indica, where they get to choose between the couch or the floor. Or dabs.) The other big change will be away from combustion (smoking) to flower vaporization (with none of the toxins from combustion) and microdosing edibles. The stinky, stupid, stoner archetype (that Amor is referencing) won't be extinguished, but it will be greatly diminished.

Death-Star-Depleted-Uranium-Zombie-Blueberry-Elephant-Tranquilizer-Jagged-Glass-Shards™ :bigsmile:

[Ratszinger]

... I never really wanted to escape life...i preferred the substances that made me engage it even more. I never much cared for a feeling of losing control and letting go. It frightened me. If anything, I wanted more control. ...

I'm like you, Mike - I don't like to lose control. With (modern, bred) cannabis, it's not as simple as the number of molecules of THC per unit weight that determines the outcome, the effect. That's because the overall chemical makeup of the plant is in play, and the terpines in the cannabis play a large role in how a person is affected.

I think that most people that experienced cannabis say, 30 years ago or more, experienced (generally speaking) the same relatively low potency plant type, with slight variances. That's not true any more. Flower breeders exponentially exploded the number of distinct varieties. Significant differences in the chemical makeup between different varieties of cannabis can yield radically different mental/emotional/physical experiences, even when the amount of THC is the same. So far (from my reading) it's obvious that the terpine ratios in the cannabis greatly affect the effect, and it's not just as simple as "sativa varieties are energetic and cerebral" and "indica varieties are sedative."

Once you start talking about varieties, the entire vibe of the conversation changes. It's really hard to hold a scientific discussion of the benefits of cannabinoids supplementing the endocannabinoid system's intrinsic output, and then mention "Girl Scout Cookies", "Green Crack", and "Durban Poison."

In my minor survey of websites and visits to a few dispensaries, I'd say the commercial growers are functioning within the capitalist system by maximizing the THC percentage of the flowers and maximizing the number of pounds of product per acre. Indica-rich hybrid varieties high in THC fit the bill, so it is most of what is commercially available. Sativa-rich hybrids take longer to grow and are "leggier" (longer stems and internodal sites) plants, with a plant chemistry producing effects that are less stony, more energizing, more social (laughing, chatting.) The effects of indica-rich hybrids are heavier, stonier, more body stone, tranquilizing, mesmerizing, pain relieving, couch locking. The general consumer is asking for bang-for-the-buck, and they are getting it. I believe that the prejudice toward "stonier" cannabis will change en masse when the consumers recognize that they actually appreciate less-stony/more-brainy cannabis, and demand it.

CBD somewhat attenuates the psychotropic effect of THC, and varieties higher in CBD can provide synergistic effects of these two compounds. (The medical cannabis field is well aware of the "entourage effect" making whole cannabis and whole extracts of cannabis exhibit synergistic effects beyond that of the laboratory isolated constituents alone.) Multiply the variety of different THC:CBD ratio cannabis varieties by thousands of different terpine profile combinations expressed by varieties, and you have an enormous amount of medical concoctions with a variety of effects, psychotropic or not.

Cannabis should not be considered as just a single substance. It's more like a vegetable stew than just any one vegetable. Different cannabis varieties have very different chemistry - and it's not just the percentage of THC.

I think that part of the fond memory of cannabis 30, 40, 50 years ago is that it wasn't so powerful. It didn't completely take over the mood, it moderately altered it. I believe the pendulum will swing back to cannabis strains that are more like 15% than 30%, and more creative and more social and less stony and less isolating varieties will become the mainstay for cannabis in social situations (and the drooling, stupefying, couch-lock cannabis is the right choice for pain, insomnia, or cancer.) Home growers will quickly realize they can grow a medicine cabinet full of named genetic varieties with rather specific desired effects, and autoflowering varieties also remove the photo-period light issues, making it much easier to grow.

This is one of the major changes I predict for the US market, once the US legalizes cannabis: less stony, more intellectually stimulating and energetic cannabis for the lion's share of the market (well, except the twenty-somethings that want the challenge of fighting off the effects of the latest, 35% THC, Death-Star-Depleted-Uranium-Zombie-Blueberry-Elephant-Tranquilizer-Jagged-Glass-Shards Indica, where they get to choose between the couch or the floor. Or dabs.) The other big change will be away from combustion (smoking) to flower vaporization (with none of the toxins from combustion) and microdosing edibles. The stinky, stupid, stoner archetype (that Amor is referencing) won't be extinguished, but it will be greatly diminished.

Death-Star-Depleted-Uranium-Zombie-Blueberry-Elephant-Tranquilizer-Jagged-Glass-Shards™ :bigsmile:


We have a dispensary here that focuses on weeds of yesteryear. All the ones we knew growing up are still available to anyone that wants them and just the way they were when we smoked them back then. I've seen the old Acapulco Gold, Columbian, Maui Wowie of the 70s still just as it was back then when I smoked it in the early years of my life. They even have one labeled, "Mexican" and it's just what you'd expect from a purchase back then as a high schooler, "Dirt Weed" that gets you high. Just FYI.

[Did You See Them]

I haven't read through this thread fully - but is "Grass"/"Weed" all that's available these days ( esp in these "dispensaries" in US and elsewhere ) or is HASH a thing of the past ?

[Tam]

I haven't read through this thread fully - but is "Grass"/"Weed" all that's available these days ( esp in these "dispensaries" in US and elsewhere ) or is HASH a thing of the past ?

You can get good, old fashioned bud, and also, anything else you can think of. Hash, either straight or added to prerolled joints. Waxes, oils, tinctures, edibles of all kinds, drinkables, capsule tablets (like vitamin e), patches for your skin, creams (these generally aren't psychoactive, rather, they're for pain and inflammation), vapor cartridges (disposable and refillable), sprays (added to joints or directly applied under the tongue)... in other words, every conceivable way of ingesting it short of outright injection or snorting.

[Chester]

Part of my research has led to the consideration that long term, day and night smoking of high quality (high THC content is what I call high quality) marijuana could play a roll in the generate a physiological environment that increases the vulnerability of an individual to experiencing psychosis.

[EDIT ADDED: I think Dennis has done his homework as so much of what he has said in his posts corroborates so much I have found in all my research. This is a personal public thank you extended to Dennis.]

I will unpack this statement to make sure that what I am trying to say is not misunderstood.

The key elements of my statement are - the smoking (in my case, mostly bonging) marijuana. When I say high quality, I am saying that from a perspective of experiencing awesome highs.

Some of my research has pointed out that the percentages of THC in what I call "high quality" marijuana have increased since the days of the seventies from maybe 5 - 10 percent to upwards of 20 - 25 %. And so part of my experience with that which I call "high quality" is actually a three decades long journey where, if I had only had the "good weed" I thought I had in the late 70s when I had my final dark experience in 2011/12, I would have been frustrated because it wouldn't have been good enough (strong enough) to my standards in 2010.11 and 12 (the 16 month stretch of my last experience).

So now add in this "thing" I have read in more than one place in my research... that if the CBD percentage is also of a certain degree (meaning higher than almost zero as in some cases), this balance is considered "good" from the standpoint of anyone eventually experiencing something dark (paranoia that leads into psychosis).

But let me get back to the physiological tie in... if, among certain users, the smoking of marijuana no matter what might be its THC percentage and CBD percentage (and other chemicals naturally produced in some marijuana strains)... in time, impacts their physiology such that in some cases (and I think the word "rare" should be here too)... in some rare cases, the individual exposes themselves to that which becomes a serious paranoia which then, can become a psychosis). If this is what is playing an all important role in the very rare but very real cases of that which is labeled as "marijuana induced psychosis" and all the contributing factors are not considered then (and this is what I suspect is true), what happens is marijuana is demonized when what may really be the case is that the individual has somehow created the physiological vulnerability that if they would take measures to ensure these "changes" are avoided or greatly mitigated... then the marijuana use (in the form I described above... as this is my only experience) would not play the role it otherwise plays and thus psychosis may (and if I am right would) not be identified as a causal factor in psychosis as some have concluded.

So if what I have suggested above holds significant truth, the problem in the anti-marijuana movement is that they are drawing incomplete conclusions which serve to demonize marijuana. And this results in unnecessary fear mongering. And my opinion is that this is just as "bad" as the "denial of risks" you get from the well funded corporate Big Marijuana movement that are driven by their greed.

So you have unfounded fear on one side and you have unfettered greed on the other.

In my ideal world, truth means more than either of these. Knowledge that leads to being fully and properly informed where care can be properly administered, when care is needed would rule. Where jails could be emptied when folks are in there because of this whole mess we find ourselves in today. Where the criminal element can be reduced and maybe disappear if not just decriminalized but legalized and properly regulated.

Where research can be done without the need for all these special permits as there is overwhelming evidence or all sorts of really great benefits can be produced by using various chemicals and chemical combinations of the plant. In addition, just like in properly managed shamanic experiences with all sorts of visionary plants, and I say this based on my own experience... escaping the five sense prison is a direct benefit for some (speaking again for myself) where marijuana has played a positive role in their escape. And I add, as each of us do so, more and more of us embrace that which assist one in their own growth where the new being they become is better for others including themselves, thus a better world for all.

A personal statement - As I have said many times in this thread, I don't demonize weed and I think it should be legal. But I also have moved my views forward since I started this thread and did additional research. I really think the physiological thing may be an important factor that seems completely overlooked where, if research was done, it may be discovered that with some lifestyle adjustments as to foods and vitamins and other supplements as well as good exercise and the employment of spiritual practices, an individual who, if they lived as I had lived all the years I had my troubles, might otherwise avoid all the dark stuff.

Having said this though, I am 62. To try and prove my theory would be foolish as perhaps I have a certain physiological vulnerability that can't be reversed or some other type of risk along those lines. In addition, because of what my loved ones have experienced, even if I was right and was disciplined and if i went back to weed use (in the only form I like... day and night bonging, as I cannot "control" how much I use), they fear they would experience would be terrible to impose and likely my wife would leave me and I couldn't blame her.

Understand, I never lost my love for the high. I just rose above it all and found other ways to live in peace without it.

My wife made me promise her that if she died, I wouldn't go back. I promised her. So I am probably "done" for the rest of my life.

I probably won't be posting here on this thread again. I really appreciate all ya'lls responses as this has been really helpful for me. I also hold out hope for my friend that he might see the wisdom is stepping aside from it for awhile to see if the targeting subsides.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I agree with you Sammy, about your premise. I know people who are prone to the ill effects of weed.

For me, everything you say about marijuana is how I feel about this world without it. I get psychosis from being straight and having to perceive this world as it is, in my face. This blatant joke of a reality is far too ludicrous to take seriously, so imagine my chagrin that most people do. I see people rushing around trying to get somewhere, but actually not getting anywhere, and telling their stories of how they did, as if it is important - as if they are important.

Until people begin to address the unreality and absolute insane state of our world, mary jane will be my best bud...

[ZenBaller]

As I mentioned in my first post early in the thread, I have encountered many cases of psychosis due to cannabis while working at a psychiatrist office. I didn't have anything else to add until I found out today that one of my cousins who I hadn't seen for several years suffered the same.

He's been using marijuana since his early 20s. He had repeating problems of sleeping late and not going to work, staying isolated for hours in his room etc.. Now in his 40s, unable to adjust to this planet because of the constant passive state he is in, the delusions began taking more concrete form. More than just thoughts. His family is about to force him into a mental hospital.

[Ratszinger]

As I mentioned in my first post early in the thread, I have encountered many cases of psychosis due to cannabis while working at a psychiatrist office. I didn't have anything else to add until I found out today that one of my cousins who I hadn't seen for several years suffered the same.

He's been using marijuana since his early 20s. He had repeating problems of sleeping late and not going to work, staying isolated for hours in his room etc.. Now in his 40s, unable to adjust to this planet because of the constant passive state he is in, the delusions began taking more concrete form. More than just thoughts. His family is about to force him into a mental hospital.

And the entire tone of this and your first reply is that marijuana is responsible for this! At the core I think the real culprit is a compulsive habit or obsessive condition and that marijuana is likely not the only thing overindulged by this person. Some people are lazy as they come and have little motivation to begin with, particularly when brought up in poor have not societies that depend on a draw and doing anything and everything to insure they get one so they are ,'taken care of for life by the system' even if a pittance. Compile that mentality and upbringing with marijane and yeah it's a bad recipe that was enhanced further by pot but hardly pot responsible. Psychosis could probably have been detected early in life in this person long before pot came to help enhance it. They were probably prone to that anyway due to environment, genetics and/or upbringing.

[Mike]

Dion Waiters, professional basketball player for the Miami Heat (and former Syracuse Orangemen..my hometown team for anyone who gives a sh!t (no one)) recently had quite an experience with edibles on the team plane.

first he had one mother of an anxiety attack, then he passed out, then he had a seizure upon awakening.
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/11/10/dion-waiters-panic-attack-edible

i've read quite a bit on this - having been a fan of his for a while - and if you read between the lines a little, i imagine he experienced something resembling what Tam described in her post, give or take.

perhaps he ate too many edibles, but i still have a hard time blaming them exclusively. i think it was likely the close confines of the plane too, and all the accompanying noise and chaos.

airports/planes + edibles = bad. that's what i'm getting out of it all

[Ratszinger]

Dion Waiters, professional basketball player for the Miami Heat (and former Syracuse Orangemen..my hometown team for anyone who gives a sh!t (no one)) recently had quite an experience with edibles on the team plane.

first he had one mother of an anxiety attack, then he passed out, then he had a seizure upon awakening.
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/11/10/dion-waiters-panic-attack-edible

i've read quite a bit on this - having been a fan of his for a while - and if you read between the lines a little, i imagine he experienced something similar to what Tam described in her post.

perhaps he ate too many edibles, but i still have a hard time blaming them exclusively. i think it was likely the close confines of the plane too.

airports/planes + edibles = bad. that's what i'm getting out of it all

Some of these reports could be cases where people opposed to marijuana lace some cookies with other things to enhance effects even more. Just to paint a negative light on it at the right time when a legal review is going on over it I'm sure. Timing is everything and when cases start coming out of the woodwork right before bills are being discussed red flags go up for me. I have a real hard time believing any of the hype and dramatic experiences because they want to present it as if a lot of new people never doing it are now smoking but the truth of the matter is that the actual number of new smokers is quite low. It's mostly people already familiar with it, that smoked it years ago, or never stopped at all really that I see when I'm at dispensary sales. The entire store yesterday was filled standing room only for the black Friday pot deals at all the local shops and most of them were old stoners from the 50s and 60s and 70s. Only a few that was talking with never tried it before and just very few. Most of them are quite familiar with it. I'm on the alert for hype stories right before legislation because I expect some backlash on the bill.

Remember not that long ago a 'anti lynching' bill was being proposed and it has been suggested that certain someone's of a political leaning staged a public lynching type event just to further the ummmph in societies' mindset to pass that bill. I don't put it past them to try this same type stunt with pot when they stand against it. Lace the right amount to the right public figure right before the legislation and you've placed doubt and hesitation in all voters and legislators minds. So we have to take these stories with a big grain of salt in my opinion.

[Strat]

Dion Waiters, professional basketball player for the Miami Heat (and former Syracuse Orangemen..my hometown team for anyone who gives a sh!t (no one)) recently had quite an experience with edibles on the team plane.

first he had one mother of an anxiety attack, then he passed out, then he had a seizure upon awakening.
https://www.si.com/nba/2019/11/10/dion-waiters-panic-attack-edible

i've read quite a bit on this - having been a fan of his for a while - and if you read between the lines a little, i imagine he experienced something resembling what Tam described in her post, give or take.

perhaps he ate too many edibles, but i still have a hard time blaming them exclusively. i think it was likely the close confines of the plane too, and all the accompanying noise and chaos.

airports/planes + edibles = bad. that's what i'm getting out of it all

I've had a grand mal seizure from smoking once before, though I do have epilepsy so I don't think the average person has to worry about this. I typically have myoclonic seizures, and I've had this style of seizure triggered from smoking on a few occasions, albeit very, very rarely.

I've also been addicted to it in the past. I know this is controversial, I'll expand on it later. It's part of the reason why I rarely smoke nowadays.

[Seabreeze]

Just a short note to this subject. I dont want to get much into this, but something I always think about when I hear about the subject marijuana as medications.

It is nothing natural anymore. I dont know if people think about this. This is all manipulated plants by now....gmo or what ever out of profit reasons.

It is manipulated just like the gmo potatoes they did test rats with. The rats became among other health problmens, huge tumors and died young.

It is manipluated...then a patent put on it..so whoever got the patent on this plant - gets the cash $$$$. I am not against marjuana or people useing it, but I am against whatever manipulations they do today to change things out of nature...we dont even know enough about it yet....

And everything manipulated has not the same effect than a natural growing plant.

Nature knows why this plant has to be like this and not different.

How come people always think they know it better than nature? They wont ever know it better than Nature!!

I know some people who consume marijuana, but I don`t. I use to in a younger age, but then stopped because I got aware of..it did not do me any good to trigger the brain for what reason ever. I understand there are people who smoke it for fun or entertainment, or against pains. I don`t blame them doing anything wrong. Everybody has to decide for themself.

But for me it is not a way to go, even while I have chronical pains.
I see pains as a alarm symptom of the body we should listen to. It is telling us there is something wrong and we should pay attention to it, so we can find a way to find out what causes this symptom and then to heal the body.
It is not my way to try to calm down or ignore pain symptoms by something manipulating the pain center.

I really understand there are many people who might need or want to take certain natural meds for pain reducement. But I think if it is something out of nature it also should be natural grown and without any manipulations like gmo or others.

Alkohol is legal, so should be natural marijuana. This is how I think about it.

Cigarettes are still legal, even if they try to reverse it now and make billions of $$$$$ by all the taxes they put on it....which is backed up by a major brain wash of the population...saying passive smoke harms non smokers?????

This I see as a major discrimination of smokers. And it is not right or fair.

Do the people really believe passive smoke harms non smokers? :bs:

And then they park their car in front of the shopping mall and let it run until they come back from shopping....thinking this is ok?

Some dried leaves and a little paper wont ever harm any non smoker like a running car does. In fact whatever comes out of a running car, harms everything around in the area......people, children, nature, animals.....

And don`t forget about the chemtrails and which stuff this puts in the air (barium, strontium, aluminium aso)...and then the industrial smokes.....

Whatever we breath in or what is mainly in the air causes the problem for all of us.

I am really getting tired of this propaganda act against smokers they push everything on....and it is all build up on a big lie....!!!!!

There are countries which would have a financial collapse if there would be no smokers anymore - because of all the tax money they would lose.

Maybe something for the non smokers to think about.....


sorry the short note...is not really short after all...it happens..:blushing:

...............................:closed:

[Praxis]

Just a short note to this subject. I dont want to get much into this, but something I always think about when I hear about the subject marijuana as medications.

It is nothing natural anymore. I dont know if people think about this. This is all manipulated plants by now....gmo or what ever out of profit reasons.

It is manipulated just like the gmo potatoes they did test rats with. The rats became among other health problmens, huge tumors and died young.

It is manipluated...then a patent put on it..so whoever got the patent on this plant - gets the cash $$$$. I am not against marjuana or people useing it, but I am against whatever manipulations they do today to change things out of nature...we dont even know enough about it yet....

And everything manipulated has not the same effect than a natural growing plant.

Nature knows why this plant has to be like this and not different.

:

There is a difference between taking a gene sequence and using a mechanism to insert it into the DNA and selectively breeding plants ala Mendels experiments.


Yes. Modern Cannabis has been bred to be stronger and more potent. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM GMO. It is irresponsible to label selectively breeding as GMO. Otherwise, LITERALLY all humans plants are GMO. YOu think the corn or any other food you eat came that way from the earth? No it has been refined since something we call the agricultural revolution.



Nature knows nothing. You are endowing an aggregate of systems with a conscious will. While I would be willing to engage you in a conversation about something like this being the case, EVEN IF she is what you are claiming she does not have magical powers to direct the evolution of each and every species upon her.

Please learn more about the difference between GMO and selective breeding.

[Seabreeze]

Just a short note to this subject. I dont want to get much into this, but something I always think about when I hear about the subject marijuana as medications.

It is nothing natural anymore. I dont know if people think about this. This is all manipulated plants by now....gmo or what ever out of profit reasons.

It is manipulated just like the gmo potatoes they did test rats with. The rats became among other health problmens, huge tumors and died young.

It is manipluated...then a patent put on it..so whoever got the patent on this plant - gets the cash $$$$. I am not against marjuana or people useing it, but I am against whatever manipulations they do today to change things out of nature...we dont even know enough about it yet....

And everything manipulated has not the same effect than a natural growing plant.

Nature knows why this plant has to be like this and not different.

:



Nature knows nothing. You are endowing an aggregate of systems with a conscious will. While I would be willing to engage you in a conversation about something like this being the case, EVEN IF she is what you are claiming she does not have magical powers to direct the evolution of each and every species upon her.

Please learn more about the difference between GMO and selective breeding.


Sorry...but you are wrong. We still don't know enough about nature...while we are going on destroying it.....insteed of learn from her......

Listen to Sepp Holzer for example you can learn a lot about it.

I am not willing to go through an argument about this.

Nature is perfect.....humans are not.

So much for this. Have a good day...:sun:

[Dennis Leahy]

... about the subject marijuana as medications.

It is nothing natural anymore. I dont know if people think about this. This is all manipulated plants by now....gmo or what ever ...
Thanks for the chance to address this issue. As far as I know, there is no GMO cannabis for sale anywhere in the world. It's the exact opposite of what you are stating. I'm sure Bayer/Monsanto or Syngenta or another biotech corporation are trying to do so, but cannabis will not easily lend itself to being genetically "marked" like soybeans. I think the confusion comes in with the terminology used, "genetically modified." Before "transgeneic" genetic modification (GMO technology), farmers for the last 10,000 years were saving seeds from the plants they liked the best. Those were the genetics allowed to be replanted. The humans were selecting which genetics to replant. Plants naturally hybridize, and auto-hybridization has been happening to plants on Earth as long as there have been plants on Earth. For example, there was a new species of spruce tree "discovered" a few decades ago that is a natural cross between Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis) and White spruce (Picea albes) [and a few scientists argue that there may also be some genetics from Engelmann spruce (Picea engelmannii) mixed in.] The new species is called Picea lutzii - guitarmakers call it "Lutz" for short. No humans messed with those tree genetics - a completely natural "cross" or "hybrid." Mother Nature doing her thing, surviving, adapting, evolving.

Then you have all the agricultural species that were "messed with" (deliberately "crossed" or "hybridized" by humans), Luther Burbank (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Luther-Burbank) style. Certainly "genetics" is involved, but not inserting genes from other species of organisms (which is "transgenics", or GMO.) Dog breeding is another good example of humans orchestrating hybridization, and that also is not producing GMO offspring.

GMO involves transgenics (https://knowgenetics.org/transgenic-organisms/), mixing of species. One example (that supposedly never actually made it to market) was a tomato that had genes from a fish inserted into it.
This is The Island of Dr. Moreau gone bad. It boggles my mind to see this snippet, quoted from the transgenics page that I linked to:
"Goats have also been genetically modified to produce spider silk (http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/science_nation/spidersilk.jsp),
one of the strongest materials known to man, in their milk. Proposed uses for this
recombinant spider silk range from artificial tendons to bulletproof vests."
So, cannabis plants are not GMO, even though farmers ("breeders") have crossed various cannabis species together to create new varieties of cannabis. All of the (now thousands of) named varieties of cannabis are almost all hybrids (there are also some varieties that are considered to be examples of the remaining "land races", strictly Mother Nature's work.)

If a farmer wants very tall cannabis plants with big, thick stalks, because the intent is to harvest the stalk fiber to make strong cloth, the farmer will select seeds with known genetics to produce those plant attributes. If a farmer/grower wants the highest THC cannabinoid content possible, along with attributes that make the medicine sedative, because the extracted oil will be given to a cancer patient, the farmer will select seeds with known genetics to produce those plant attributes. When you grow you own garden, and you peruse the seed catalogs to find the varieties of squash, and beans, and corn that you want to grow, will likely select from among hybrid seeds with known genetics to produce those plant attributes that you desire.


...
Do the people really believe passive smoke harms non smokers? :bs:

And then they park their car in front of the shopping mall and let it run until they come back from shopping....thinking this is ok?

Some dried leaves and a little paper wont ever harm any non smoker like a running car does. ...
...

Well, maybe the most honest thing to say is that smoke - whether it is a house fire or a forest fire or a cigarette or a joint - contains known carcinogens. It ain't healthy to breathe.

In the case of cannabis (with THC) smoke, the US government paid for a study to "prove" that cannabis smoking causes lung cancer (right after the US govt paid for a study to prove cigarettes cause lung cancer) - but the study got paradoxical results: the MORE someone smoked cannabis, the LESS likely they were to get lung cancer.

The amazing THC molecule is outrageously anti-cancer, with three known ways that the THC is anti-cancer - the most remarkable may be that THC turns apoptosis (normal cellular end-of-cell-life death) back on, in cancer cells. One of the attributes of a cell that makes it a cancer cell is that it has turned off apoptosis and has become "immortal." THC turns apoptosis back on, so the cancer cell can then die.

The reason I mentioned all that is that I wonder if smoking cannabis high in CBD and extremely low in THC (less than the current US govt standard of <0.3%THC), a.k.a. "hemp" by the US govt definition, will cause lung cancer. Without the magical THC molecules, smoking near-zero THC cannabis smoke would contain the carcinogens but not the prime anti-cancer medicine.

Cigarette smoke, even from pure, organically grown tobacco, contains carcinogens.
Cannabis smoke, even from pure, organically grown cannabis, contains carcinogens.
"Passive" smoking, that is, breathing in someone else's smoke, contains carcinogens.
Breathing in the exhaust from a bus contains carcinogens too.
I think the smart thing is to avoid smoke of any sort. Even though the smoke from cannabis with THC contains anti-cancer medicine too (that evidently counteracts the toxins from the smoke), it still is damaging to the lungs.

[Seabreeze]

I am against any manipulations of natural plants.....not only against GMO... maybe I did not make this clear enough..... Whatever is manipulated, which way ever...is not natural in my eyes anymore....


news : Dec. 2-2019 Monsanto Creates First Genetically Modified Strain of Marijuana

https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/monsanto-creates-first-genetically-modified-strain-of-marijuana/

[Seabreeze]

[QUOTE=Whisper;1325989]... about the subject marijuana as medications.



Cigarette smoke, even from pure, organically grown tobacco, contains carcinogens.
Cannabis smoke, even from pure, organically grown cannabis, contains carcinogens.

"Passive" smoking, that is, breathing in someone else's smoke, contains carcinogens.

Breathing in the exhaust from a bus contains carcinogens too.

I think the smart thing is to avoid smoke of any sort. Even though the smoke from cannabis with THC contains anti-cancer medicine too (that evidently counteracts the toxins from the smoke), it still is damaging to the lungs.

you forgot to write up on the cars, the industrie, the chemtrails......how come?


car smoke contains carcinogens.....aso....


There is totaly no proof that cigarette smoke caused lung cancer to a non smoker so far. Never heard of someones pet which got lung cancer because someone smoked around it also.

This is just what they use as progaganda back up. If a non smoker gets lung cancer, how do you want to get a proof on why`? There could be many reasons. And even not every smoker gets lung cancer. How do you want to explain this now? A cigarette is some dried leaves and a little paper around...nothing else.....

And they make big money with all the taxes they put on it.....$$$$$$

And by the way, smoke can have a healthy effect too in some cases.

But maybe the churches should stop the Religious use of incense then if any smoke is so unhealthy to everybody? I do not think so.

And everybody should make sure now...to park their car far enough away from every window and door now....and to stop burn any leaves in your yard....and avoid any Barbecues in the future.....:bigsmile:

This here I think is very interesting also - about tobacco and cannabis :

https://www.sott.net/article/280406-The-long-forgotten-healing-properties-of-tobacco (https://www.sott.net/article/280406-The-long-forgotten-healing-properties-of-tobacco)


But like I said - I dont want to get to far into this subject around here.

[Praxis]

I am against any manipulations of natural plants.....not only against GMO... maybe I did not make this clear enough..... Whatever is manipulated, which way ever...is not natural in my eyes anymore....


news : Dec. 2-2019

https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/monsanto-creates-first-genetically-modified-strain-of-marijuana/

So I am to take it you are against agricultural in general then?

You statement is at odds with agrarian ways of life. One can not farm and have zero impact on the plants they are growing.


Do you consider the Hoover Dam natural?
Do you consider a beaver dam natural?

What is natural and what is unnatural?

[Caliban]

Sooner or later the rubber must meet the road:

Can we just spark one up already?
:sun:

[Ernie Nemeth]

I think that for the sake of argument a case can be made that there is quite convincing statistical evidence that smoking causes cancer in some people - we just don't know in whom or why just them. Same for second-hand smoke.

And there is a world of difference between cigarettes manufactured by industry and those made by the indigenous community - although most of that is probably wishful thinking, considering there is no regulation of this illegal activity.

Marijuana is much the same. Some product out there is grown as hydroponics and that can easily be full of toxins if those growing it are inexperienced or not ethically inclined or morally responsible.

There is barely any foods nowadays that is not in some way compromised. Pesticide riddled, genetically altered, grown in depleted soils that need copious amounts of fertilizer, and other inappropriate practices makes for very unhealthy products on our grocery store shelves.

Choose your poison and hope for the best, is what the modern dietary considerations consists of these days.

[Sue (Ayt)]

There are journal studies that explore the physical and mental effects of cannabis. I guess like everything else, reactions are very individual, as are the effects of CBD vs. THC, and level of usage. Below is just one article:


The contribution of cannabis use to variation in the incidence of psychotic disorder across Europe (EU-GEI): a multicentre case-control study
published:March 19, 2019

Cannabis use is associated with increased risk of later psychotic disorder but whether it affects incidence of the disorder remains unclear. We aimed to identify patterns of cannabis use with the strongest effect on odds of psychotic disorder across Europe and explore whether differences in such patterns contribute to variations in the incidence rates of psychotic disorder.
Methods

We included patients aged 18–64 years who presented to psychiatric services in 11 sites across Europe and Brazil with first-episode psychosis and recruited controls representative of the local populations. We applied adjusted logistic regression models to the data to estimate which patterns of cannabis use carried the highest odds for psychotic disorder. Using Europe-wide and national data on the expected concentration of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) in the different types of cannabis available across the sites, we divided the types of cannabis used by participants into two categories: low potency (THC <10%) and high potency (THC ≥10%). Assuming causality, we calculated the population attributable fractions (PAFs) for the patterns of cannabis use associated with the highest odds of psychosis and the correlation between such patterns and the incidence rates for psychotic disorder across the study sites.
Findings

Between May 1, 2010, and April 1, 2015, we obtained data from 901 patients with first-episode psychosis across 11 sites and 1237 population controls from those same sites. Daily cannabis use was associated with increased odds of psychotic disorder compared with never users (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 3·2, 95% CI 2·2–4·1), increasing to nearly five-times increased odds for daily use of high-potency types of cannabis (4·8, 2·5–6·3). The PAFs calculated indicated that if high-potency cannabis were no longer available, 12·2% (95% CI 3·0–16·1) of cases of first-episode psychosis could be prevented across the 11 sites, rising to 30·3% (15·2–40·0) in London and 50·3% (27·4–66·0) in Amsterdam. The adjusted incident rates for psychotic disorder were positively correlated with the prevalence in controls across the 11 sites of use of high-potency cannabis (r = 0·7; p=0·0286) and daily use (r = 0·8; p=0·0109).
Interpretation

Differences in frequency of daily cannabis use and in use of high-potency cannabis contributed to the striking variation in the incidence of psychotic disorder across the 11 studied sites. Given the increasing availability of high-potency cannabis, this has important implications for public health.

full study:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(19)30048-3/fulltext

[Seabreeze]

So I am to take it you are against agricultural in general then?

You statement is at odds with agrarian ways of life. One can not farm and have zero impact on the plants they are growing.


Do you consider the Hoover Dam natural?
Do you consider a beaver dam natural?

What is natural and what is unnatural?

I think I did write it before already....informations on natural farming you can find under permaculture or listen to Sepp Holzer and his knowledge about nature. It is very intersting and amazing.

Farming and agriculture goes ages the wrong way already, because it is working against nature and not with nature. Monoculture is totaly wrong, so is the use of chemicals or the manipulation of plants. Nature works for us, if we listen to her and do a right farming. Please inform yourself on this... I think Sepp Holzer can explain this way better, than I could.

And don`t all of you see the connection here ...if you compare tobbaco and now cannabis?

As soon they start to manipulate in which way ever...it goes down the drain what use to have a good and healthy effect before when it was
natural grown.

https://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/smoke/t3011.gif ..........https://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/smoke/t3021.gif


Something to think about more close...I would say.


https://www.sott.net/article/221013-Health-Benefits-of-Smoking-Tobacco (https://www.sott.net/article/221013-Health-Benefits-of-Smoking-Tobacco) (...maybe this is why they did so much manipulations on natural tobacco.....)

[Mike]

I don't know if it's some kind of synchronicity due to my participation on this thread or what, but I keep seeing weed related things lately. The Graham Hancock/Rogan video is particularly interesting and well worth watching. Both Graham and Willie Nelson speak highly of weed, are not decrying it by any means, but are quitting for both personal and health related reasons.

Personally, I believe Graham will quit long term, but I have much less faith in Willie. I don't even think I want Willie to quit!:)


Graham Hancock has quit smoking weed:
8ZplWWVUyH8

And holy sh!t, so has Willie Nelson:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/willie-nelson-has-quit-smoking-weed

[Chester]

My sources informed me that Hancock did not remain "quit."

As for myself... I stopped completely sometime in late January 2012 with one quite perilous "slip." In late 2015, where I was living back in my hometown, Dallas, Texas, USA (after 15 years of living out of the country where I returned to Dallas "for good" in early February, 2013), I was living in a home where all three of my sons (aged 20, 22 and 24) were also all living with me and were full blown wake and bakers... and I had been working hard on the legal immigration of my wife, Cristina, whose from Colombia... and we came up against a need for a single specific paper from the island of Curaçao whereby the US Embassy in Bogota had told her, without that paper, she would not be granted her US visa and permanent residency.

The smell of the weed that permeated my home combined with the stress of the immigration situation... I got weak and asked my sons for s bud or two which they were very happy to provide me - as, in my experience, most daily users think its great for everyone to use it and encourage it regardless of what might otherwise be reasons the individual should not - my sons had plenty of the "dark data" - much experienced first hand, as that all related to me... but I digress.

So I began an three or four day "slip" where I experienced the heightened psi type experience I call - "hyper-quantum synchronicity." Yet also, I felt the paranoia at times and then... within a few days I was bonging it in the AM (and all day) and... I woke on the fourth or fifth day with the overwhelming feeling of doom as to where this would lead... must specifically, that I would somehow fail to do all I could do to ensure the piece of paper we needed from Curaçao was obtained and would lose my wife, who I loved and love dearly and who means the world to me...

and so I gave the bong to the kids and the little bit of weed I had and begged them to stop doing it in the house so I wouldn't have to smell it all day and night and somehow I was able to stay away until the miracles we needed to fall into place regarding my wife's immigration whereby she arrived on January 13, 2017. Her arrival also meant my sons (who had a year to prepare) had to move out on their own and I no longer had to deal with the usage of marijuana and the smell and my own love for it [I]in my house.

I have remained 100% marijuana free ever since and if we throw out those 4 or 5 days, in January 2020 it will be 8 years.

I would be lying if I did not say I sometimes dream of smoking weed again or being around it in my dreams (like part of a scenario where it is being sold and/or used). I would be lying if I didn't say I sometimes fantasize a "shamanic venture" to Colorado for like a three day mushroom / weed laden "consciousness exploration journey" but I also would be jeopardizing so much based on my history and based on my promises to myself and my wife that I leave that in the realm of fantasy and frankly rarely even have such thoughts. I sometimes wonder "what" might be influencing these thoughts yet also, I operate under the assumption I am 100% responsible for the thoughts I own and thus my words (written and spoken) and my actions... so I don't operate with an excuse even if demonic forces want me to fail and do what they can to ensure my failure. I hope Herve reads this... as the role he has played in my journey to get to this place has been vital (and thus, I always thank him).

[Caliban]

Willie quit toking, not ingesting:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evjjg4/relax-willie-nelson-has-not-quit-weed

Hyper Quantum Synchronicity. Be careful Sammy, if you don't trademark that name either Deepocket Chopra, Joe Dispenza or Joe Vitale will.... all the way to Chase Manhattan Bank :idea:

[Seabreeze]

...deleted..

[Praxis]

I think I did write it before already....informations on natural farming you can find under permaculture or listen to Sepp Holzer and his knowledge about nature. It is very intersting and amazing.

Farming and agriculture goes ages the wrong way already, because it is working against nature and not with nature. Monoculture is totaly wrong, so is the use of chemicals or the manipulation of plants. Nature works for us, if we listen to her and do a right farming. Please inform yourself on this... I think Sepp Holzer can explain this way better, than I could.

And don`t all of you see the connection here ...if you compare tobbaco and now cannabis?

As soon they start to manipulate in which way ever...it goes down the drain what use to have a good and healthy effect before when it was
natural grown.



Something to think about more close...I would say.


https://www.sott.net/article/221013-Health-Benefits-of-Smoking-Tobacco (https://www.sott.net/article/221013-Health-Benefits-of-Smoking-Tobacco) (...maybe this is why they did so much manipulations on natural tobacco.....)

Am literally a Owner/Operator of an Organic Farm, both certified by USDA and believe in it beyond just what they require, that focuses on regenerative and low till methods.

Yes Corporate monoculture is the root of all our problems, in all ways not just agrobusines.

I put it this way: Organic Biodiversity out-competes(destroys) corporate monoculture. If you like slogans there you go.


Consider the tomato.

The way I understand your reasoning is that any tomato grown outside of the Americas is wrong and should be stopped because it is not the natural habitat for the tomato.

Is this an incorrect understanding? The sheer planting of a plant outside of where it would naturally be able to get to without the help of humans is an unnatural act is what I understand your stance to be.

Or choosing the most delicious of your tomato plants and planting seeds from it and not other tomato plants would also be an unnatural act?

If these are true it would require even my own farm to change our methods and I think most farms, even organic ones.

I will look into Sepp, but on the cursory look I feel that we are already simpatico as he is very similar to Joel Salatin, who I am aware of(which he a wonderful writer if you have not heard of him).

Whisper, I feel we are on the same team and want the same thing and even, generally believe the same things( in regards to plants and farming methods) so please do not take any of this as an attack.

I know I am aggressive and feel strongly and that is something I work on. I apologize if this is coming off that way. But I really am just trying to understand your perspective as I think we should be very highly critical of corporate structure and strategy especially in regards to our food and land management.

I greatly appreciate your passion in regards to this topic as I believe it is the most important of our time. We are losing allies, as you put them, all across the kingdoms(animal, plant, insect, fungal) and the biodiversity loss is a BIG ****ING DEAL, pardon my language. I think I really like that you are aware of this topic and feel passionately about it.

Cheers

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I don't know if it's some kind of synchronicity due to my participation on this thread or what, but I keep seeing weed related things lately. The Graham Hancock/Rogan video is particularly interesting and well worth watching. Both Graham and Willie Nelson speak highly of weed, are not decrying it by any means, but are quitting for both personal and health related reasons.

Personally, I believe Graham will quit long term, but I have much less faith in Willie. I don't even think I want Willie to quit!:)


Graham Hancock has quit smoking weed:
8ZplWWVUyH8

And holy sh!t, so has Willie Nelson:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/willie-nelson-has-quit-smoking-weed

You will note that Hancock was actually from 2013. He didnt quit.

He took an extended break. He talks about it actually on another JRE podcast where he tokes with Joe after coming off the break. Basically, he says that it can be abused like all things. I am unsure of his current toking status but I wanted to clarify about this video and later developments

[TomKat]

Smoking pot is a good way to pick up astral attachments. So is getting drunk. My brother's personality, as a teen, changed for the worse overnight after he started smoking pot in high school. He became apathetic and mentally absent much of the time. I think it's still an effort for him to stay present, even though he hasn't smoked in almost 40 years.

[Agape]

I would say that 99.99% of the problem and solution to it is in human hands and ability to discern what is it that we really need.

For me this debate belongs to the generation of people and their children who despite following cultured habits and good manners and studied just about half of the chemistry that we had to study even then these people had just books, TVs and radios to learn from and of course, other people.

What most of them never learned was how to listen to their own “body intelligence” and how to treat themselves and others with care and true discernment.

The whole problem of habits and wrong convictions has nothing to do with any particular substance, I believe. For example. There are millions of people out there who are already, chronically ill yet they continue feeding( themselves) and overeat on daily bases, not only that - they eat foods they like in particular even if it totally whacks their stomachs, gall bladders, livers and so forth.
They will do it day after day because and after all, according to your western medical specialist if you don’t eat for a day you are “fasting” and should you “fast” longer something is or could go seriously wrong with you. It’s about pre taught convictions.

No matter what your condition is, where one is starting from, it’s really important to realize that every drop and bit ultimately matters.

When I was still teaching meditation and philosophy, back in days I’d always tell people to think and meditate for a while on the amount of human effort needed so that everything takes place and the food people buy in supermarkets, fast, easy and good looking , how many people in chain, how much work was put into making any of those..

Feel little grateful for every bit of everything. Appreciate it, taste, don’t just “consume”.
Consumers, “consumer market” is a bad label really, economical slang yes but it speaks of unprocessed, unfiltered habit of consuming what ever comes under or whatever is offered.
It’s a bad moral that this materialistic, agnostic civilisation brought upon itself, desecrating the status of human beings, animals and plants and virtually all life calling it soul less, immoral and primitive.

That kind of life degrading philosophy is responsible for far more confusion, depression and drug abuse than has ever existed or been ever created on this planet in the name of any “deity”.

Seemingly safe, life less philosophy of perfection without soul.

As a result we get millions of people who are in despair about all the rest so also millions who will reach for remedies.

Alcohol is far more dangerous than marijuana yet it’s sold free all over the world.

Even then and as an example, alcohol is also either medicine or poison like any other substance depending how much do you take and what’s your condition.

Same with marijuana and everything, I think.

Do you eat the same foods everyday in the same amount ?

If you did, would it give you any pleasure anymore ?

I bet it would not. Or are you taking chunks of food, putting them to your mouth without discrimination, even if you know you may get sick?
I bet you don’t, as mature and aware adults.

Now why do people take psychotropic drugs without discrimination and awareness of virtually every moment, of you are doing it, please stop.

It’s not safe the way it’s being offered, aka “for consumption”.

If you know what you’re doing, if your brain or body needs it, you may drink bottle of whisky, get sick and that’s done( no I don’t recommend).
But if you do it everyday, you are SICK and should not do that.

Wise people don’t consume things that way. In Himalayas and the culture who cultivated cannabis thousands of years ago people still have lots of respect for it because it’s medicinal plant and has virtually almost positive effect on your well being well unless ..
you have little respect for it and yourself.


In short, yes people can die for wrong upbringing or convictions. Anything of substance, even an energy( frequency, music for example) should be treated with respect and care, as a medicine for body and soul.

I get little angry when I see all these teenagers or any other people smoking and drinking without respect to themselves and each other, the effects may be about anything but your own chaotic condition getting worse.

The way it was done traditionally, as an offering in its original culture had more to do with power or awareness and powerful clarity of mind that should transport the aspirant to more advanced , self-healing state of being.

Young people of today get it via their friends often without any spiritual initiation and instruction. It being illegal yet in many countries there’s also a problem of availability and sense of guilt unless your society accepts it as a norm.

So this only points out the deep rift between ourselves and Mother Nature here. While we breathe tons of chemicals we should not breathe, exhales, fumes from farms and factories and can buy heavy chemicals capable of poisoning thousands

we are so confused about what we need really
and makings of little flower.


Well, don’t forget about the Flower Generation and All We Need is Love 😀


Without pure love no medicine works


🙏🌸🙏

[TomKat]

Apparently marijuana psychosis is an actual disorder:

https://www.inquirer.com/health/marijuana-addiction-adolescents-psychosis-abuse-vaping-penn-state-20191223.html

[Seabreeze]

Well, everybody is unique. So for some people something is good and helps for another person it could have a bad effect. This is a fact. Some people might get a psychosis from smokeing pot...for others it has positive effects. It is always up to your own private condition of body and soul - I would say.

Talking about psychosis and mental dissorders...I guess nobody so far did read much up on the link about health effects of tobacco smokeing around here..... there is written among other health benefits, for example :

The most fascinating and widely recognized health benefit of smoking is its ability to seemingly alleviate symptoms of mental illnesses, including anxiety and schizophrenia. According to an article published in 1995 in Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews, schizophrenics have much higher smoking rates than people with other mental illnesses, and appear to use it as a method of self-medicating. The article postulates that nicotine found in cigarettes reduces psychiatric, cognitive, sensory, and physical effects of schizophrenia, and also provides relief of common side effects from antipsychotic drugs.

The treatment of schizophrenia isn't the only positive effect that nicotine has on the brain. A series of very interesting studies from multiple academic sources confirms that the risk of Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease is surprisingly higher in non-smokers than in smokers. Doctor Laura Fratiglioni of Huddinge University Hospital in Sweden states, "Cigarette smokers are 50% less likely to have PD or AD than are age and gender-matched nonsmokers [...] cigarette smoking exerts an undefined, biologic, neuroprotective influence against the development of PD and AD."

source and full text here: https://www.sott.net/article/221013-Health-Benefits-of-Smoking-Tobacco

this is interessting also : FDA: Anti-smoking drugs can make you crazy. Los Angeles Times. July 1, 2009. ups..sorry article´´quickly vanished from internet....:(

[TomKat]

Talking about psychosis and mental dissorders...I guess nobody so far did read much up on the link about health effects of tobacco smokeing around here..... there is written among other health benefits, for example :


I'm not surprised that tobacco smoking has a beneficial mental effect. Smoking 20 cigarettes a day gives one 20 "time outs" a day, 20 withdrawals into a semi-meditative state, a socially acceptable pause from life. Just watch a smoker sometime -- they are half-elsewhere. That's why it's so hard to quit. I found the physical withdrawal is over in a month, but it takes a whole year of abstinence to experience twice every instance that "requires" a cigarette -- after which the habit is gone.

[Seabreeze]

I guess TomKat, you did not inform yourself also, by the links about health benefits from natural tobacco I did post earlier?

This was just one health benefit you could read up on there. I wrote this one, because members been talking here about psychosis and mental disorders.....

In fact there are many more health benefits on smokeing natural tobacco listed, backed up by links to the study done :

- Cigarette smoking has also been linked to a decrease in risk of certain inflammatory disorders, since nicotine itself appears to be an anti-inflammatory agent.

- While this is certainly not worth at-home experimentation, one astonishing study conducted in Sweden observed two generations of Swedish children and found that the children of smokers had lower rates of allergic rhinitis, allergic asthma, atopic eczema, and food allergies. The studied groups included 6909 adults and 4472 children, and the findings remained consistent, even when adjusted to reflect other variables.

- The treatment of schizophrenia isn't the only positive effect that nicotine has on the brain. A series of very interesting studies from multiple academic sources confirms that the risk of Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease is surprisingly higher in non-smokers than in smokers.

- It appears to reduce the risk of ulcerative colitis, sarcoidosis, endometrial cancer, uterine fibroids and breast cancer among women carrying the very high risk BRCA gene. Using organic tobacco with no additives may be a way to utilize these benefits, without many of the risks posed by conventional tobacco.

If you are a tobacco lover, the best way to obtain it is to plant your own in a garden or in pots. Since there's no recipe on how to use it and in which quantities, a good way would be to use your intuition.

Throughout South and North America, tobacco was used consumed in a diversity of ways: it was chewed, sniffed, smoked, eaten, juiced, smeared over bodies, and used in eye drops and enemas. Its use varied depending on the culture and location - it ranged from medicinal as a remedy for many ailments, to purely recreational consumed by both men and women, and also mystical - a connection to the spiritual world: it´s purifying smoke was blown over fields before planting, over women prior to sex, blown into warriors' faces before battle, it was offered to gods as well as accepted as their gift. In other words, tobacco smoke was believed to carry blessings, protection and most of all purification.

But..
In the US, the industry uses over 600 intentional chemical additives to blended cigarettes. Furthermore, there is a myriad of additives present in tobacco final products which are not intentionally added, but are simply a by-product of growing and production process.

These include: various microorganisms, pesticides, herbicides, insecticides, heavy metals, foreign materials such as metal, cardboard, styrofoam, wood fragments, small animals and insects, and other elements such as organic solvents and dioxins.

As if this wasn't enough, in 1982 tobacco became the first plant that was genetically modified

Question is now : What are the people addicted to? The nicotine itself or some other unnatural ingredients which are added by the industrie? I guess nobody really can answer this question....

By now, we have a massive discrimination going on towards tobacco smokers, build up on lies and false statements....

I think the marijuana will go a similar way soon. Whatever has some health effects for many people is getting manipulated and destroyed sooner or later.....

https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/monsanto-creates-first-genetically-modified-strain-of-marijuana/

Monsanto Creates First Genetically Modified Strain of Marijuana /December 2019

[TomKat]

What are the people addicted to? The nicotine itself or some other unnatural ingredients which are added by the industrie? I guess nobody really can answer this question....

I remember when I switched to Nature's Spirit and had a headache for a week because my body wanted the chemicals. At any rate, that was physical, not psychological, addiction, and it was over quickly. Getting over the psychological addiction took about a year.

I've had no desire to smoke in 3 decades and I'm pretty sure my lungs are better off for it. And I drink decaf coffee because my blood pressure is high enough without caffeine.

[Chester]

Apparently marijuana psychosis is an actual disorder:

https://www.inquirer.com/health/marijuana-addiction-adolescents-psychosis-abuse-vaping-penn-state-20191223.html

It is, and is why I created the thread, having experienced 10 psychosis events (one almost fatal - the tenth and last when I finally got the message - 8 years ago)... psychosis events exacerbated by long term, heavy dose use of high quality marijuana.

My left eye is blind as a result of one of these psychosis (the seventh one).

There are far more cases just like this than many wish to acknowledge, yet it is still a very small percentage of users who use marijuana "medically" (and I am talking about "to get high" thus for the THC), still - the fact that marijuana can induce psychosis is proven true more and more. Does this mean "you" should never smoke marijuana? I think your experience should tell you your answer. For most, it can be used "medically" and with benefits (or perceived benefits) and for many, it can be used recreationally without immediate, perceptible issues related to psychosis.

And then there's those who do get addicted - yes, addiction happens with marijuana in some cases... in fact, about 10% (some stats say more) of those who try marijuana two or three times (sometimes just once) become addicted. It doesn't matter if the addiction is only psychological. Addiction is addiction. And understand, each time I was forced to quit (and in two cases, I quit voluntarily), I experienced very real withdrawal symptoms that I felt physically and psychologically and were quite unpleasant with the exception of quitting after my 8th psychosis.

If I read an article like the one above prior to 1990 and that 8th experience (even though I never found one quite so direct and quite so accurate in regards to my own experience), I wouldn't have "bought it." I would have thought it was pure propaganda. But after that 9th experience in 2001 and then the last one in 2012, I started to see articles appear where the conclusions held open the possibility, even likelihood that about 3-5% of the population who had become daily users eventually ended up experiencing psychosis. Up until then, I had always convinced myself these two things were not connected - marijuana and psychosis.

And so now, with the mass "recreational" legalization and "medical marijuana" legalization, coupled with the significant increase in THC percentages... the emergency rooms and rehabs are showing the reality of the risk (including the rise) more and more. It's not "Reefer Madness BS" to point out the facts. But to do so is automatically considered to be "Reefer Madness BS" fear mongering. This is sadly what human beings do (fear mongering) and are susceptible to concluding (that it is fear mongering). I know my own intent and it is devoid of fear mongering. It is driven by compassion for others who might read this and one day appreciate the information as that may relate to a loved one or even their own experience.

And so the few who have both, real experience with marijuana induced psychosis (like myself) and who have done their homework, initially as in my case, because they would rather remain in denial yet fear their suspicions about themselves and marijuana may be right (like myself) and who end up concluding that the chance there is, at least in one's own personal experience, a basis for concluding there's a clear connection, then perhaps one can do what I have done that I have never done before... and that is stay off marijuana (and all drugs for that matter, including alcohol... because they have always led me back to smoking weed) for eight years now.

Here's the text of the article which is pretty much what I have read in several different news reports which are attacked and suppressed as best they can by the marijuana lobby because, as we know full well about humans, greed drives the train above any and all else.

Cannabis-related psychosis, addiction, ER visits: For young users, marijuana can be a dangerous game

Not long ago when Joseph Garbely, chief medical officer for the Caron Foundation, reviewed younger patients starting drug or alcohol treatment on his unit, he usually saw people shaking, sick, and seizing from alcohol or opioid withdrawal. Marijuana was seldom what put them in those medical beds.
That has changed.

“A few years ago, it was rare to see a young person enter Caron with marijuana-induced psychosis,” said Garbely. “Now we see it on a regular basis. Older teens and young adults — approximately ages 18 to 26 — are the most impacted. We see a significant misperception about the safety and efficacy of marijuana among our teen and young-adult patient population.”

Marijuana, legal for medical uses in well over half the states in the country and as a recreational substance in ever more states, is generating increasing concern as a dependency-causing drug capable of serious impairment and harm, particularly among its youngest users. New Jersey voters will get to decide in 2020 whether to legalize marijuana for recreational use for people age 21 and over.

While it was once doubted as an addictive substance, treatment professionals now say they are seeing more adolescents and young adults with cannabis use disorder. Often starting in their early teens, many graduate to daily use.

“The majority of cases we see of substance use disorder are marijuana,” said Ned Campbell, medical director of Rehab After School, an intensive out-patient program for adolescents in Southeastern Pennsylvania, including the Philadelphia area.

My final comments - The areas of the article that I emphasized are done so because my own experience matches the statement. And I understand I am one person... but I am one person who has not only done a great deal of research on the matter, but has met plenty of others who have endured the same experience. One thing this article did not mention but has been noted in many similar articles... this "thing," marijuana induced psychosis, seems to occur far more in males than females.

I had all the key ingredients. I was 15 when I tried it and within a few months was addicted (bonging it from when I awoke in the morning). I was male. I became addicted every time I started using again (and the only reason I stopped was because of the hospitalizations for psychosis). By age 28, I had had 7 of the 10 psychosis experiences pointing out the concentration between my first, aged 19 and that seventh event, aged 28 - meaning I had 70% of my experiences within that rough window the article points out.

It's real. It happens. The legalization lobby doesn't want to see the concern become a legitimate part of the debate. And the anti-drug fanatics do just as much harm by fear mongering about it.

All groups should come together (but they won't because humans have yet to show they are capable of such). They should come together such that the risk can be properly disseminated to the public. The plant and all its usages should be legalized. The derivatives (high % THC "edibles" for example) should be better regulated. It all should be regulated, but regulations put forth by the powerful and financially strong "marijuana lobby" should not be the regulations established. But again, greed drives this train, just like Big Alcohol did and just like Big Tobacco did.

"Big Marijuana" knows the cost years down the road is not near enough to scare them into being honest about the risks, so they remain dishonest and they continue to deny and/or suppress any information they deem as negative.

So why do I even bother creating a thread like this? Because (as mentioned before) I believe a friend (and member) could benefit from considering the possibility his issues are, at least in part, made worse by usage of marijuana (bonging it... bonging really high quality - high THC content marijuana). I write this because my oldest son (age 28) has had 4 of these same psychosis episodes all involving the same factors related to marijuana that led to my ten experiences. Because my middle son has recently become so heavily paranoid (the last stage before the psychosis becomes full blown) where he has concocted false realities with jealousies at the core which has torn him apart from a few friends, but worse... his younger brother. Where his paranoia led him to conclude "things" about myself which are so horrific our relationship has likely ended for the rest of our lives. Because my youngest son is a wake and baker (in fact, all three are) but on top of that he has followed the path of my father (his grandfather) and is a full blown "functional" (for now) alcoholic at age 24.

And they all sometimes read my posts on this forum. And some of the studies have mentioned the possibility of a genetic connection with regards to the addiction/psychosis proclivity.

[TomKat]

“A few years ago, it was rare to see a young person enter Caron with marijuana-induced psychosis,” said Garbely. “Now we see it on a regular basis. Older teens and young adults — approximately ages 18 to 26 — are the most impacted. We see a significant misperception about the safety and efficacy of marijuana among our teen and young-adult patient population.”


Isn't this the same age schizophrenia generally manifests? Might be a stretch to completely blame marijuana.

[Chester]

“A few years ago, it was rare to see a young person enter Caron with marijuana-induced psychosis,” said Garbely. “Now we see it on a regular basis. Older teens and young adults — approximately ages 18 to 26 — are the most impacted. We see a significant misperception about the safety and efficacy of marijuana among our teen and young-adult patient population.”


Isn't this the same age schizophrenia generally manifests? Might be a stretch to completely blame marijuana.

Yes and I don't completely lay it on marijuana. That's been clear in all my posts in this thread. Nevertheless, what has become quite clear, especially since the rise in THC strength of smokable marijuana and the increase in people's usage (which has occurred ever since the trend to legalize in its various forms or decriminalize is that when the susceptibility is there, what sometimes makes the difference between having or not having the experience of full blown psychosis (which can be far more dangerous) is the inducement of the psychosis by usage of marijuana.

I happen to be very libertarian and I think all of this stuff should be completely legal. I also think people should want to know the risks without distortions of those risks. Sadly, the distortions, in both directions are the norm for human beings. Oh well.

[Seabreeze]

And I drink decaf coffee because my blood pressure is high enough without caffeine.

TomKat...
Coffe does not cause high blood pressure..in fact regular coffee, the caffeine helps the body to eliminate partly certain metalls out of the human body. This is why caffeine is helpful for people who have Alzheimer....for example.... Decaf. coffee does not have this effect... 1-3 cups regular coffee a day is good to drink. I got this from a toxicologist I use to have contact to.....

What is bad to consum if you have high blood pressure already is unnatural salt, magerine and artificial foods and drinks. High blood pressure and diabetis are mainly caused by eating the wrong foods....says Dr. Schnitzer. And his patients get healed in about 2 month, just following his advices on what and how to eat and drink right..... Just thought I let you know. If you want more informations on this, write me a pm, because this is not a subject for this thread. And I am out of here anyways.... Have a good day :wave:

[Ernie Nemeth]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/major-canadian-pot-companies-facing-proposed-class-action-lawsuits-in-the-u-s-1.5431520

As predicted, the pot industry is not doing well in Canada. Stock market prices are dropping fast. There is talk of purposely misleading investors, as this article describes.

The next part of the plan will commence soon. The crackdown on illegal growers and the buyers who support them!

Mark my words.