What is Clif High smoking? (Anatoly Fomenko's theory of the "New Chronology")

[Zionbrion]

I follow Cliff High on twitter, I screen captured this collection of weird tweets about humans only being around for hundreds of years. Have you ever heard of this bizarre theory?

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[Bill Ryan]

Well, Clif said: "...we can only date our civilization back 400 years with ANY certainty."

My guess is that he probably meant this:

Prior to 400 years ago (1620 AD), we were all in the Dark and Middle Ages. Then came the Renaissance, and soon after that the Industrial Revolution, and here we are now in the Space Age. So our current civilization, as we know it, really only started a short time ago. (Of course, anatomically modern humans have been around for a VERY long time.)

[Zionbrion]

His tweets are always very confusing to me. I took that as him saying something completely different. What about the 1054 bogus years he is talking about?

[Bill Ryan]

His tweets are always very confusing to me. I took that as him saying something completely different. What about the 1054 bogus years he is talking about?Point taken! I may be wrong. I have no idea what he's referring to there. :)

[Ratszinger]

I think he is referring to this very subject matter here only much deeper! Another Avalon Thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109514-The-real-reasons-the-US-government-is-so-secretive-about-UFOs)

Specifically regarding this! Who created us? What did they look like before they finished their only hope for surviving somehow by hybridizing part of themselves into an existing species found here? Cliff knows what I think I know. We're not that old, this is a lab or experiment, it's maintained by someone or something much more advanced over us, hence some of them dissolving old chem trails.

My post on the other thread above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109514-The-real-reasons-the-US-government-is-so-secretive-about-UFOs&p=1329094&viewfull=1#post1329094)

[Did You See Them]

I believe it may have to do with Phantom time hypothesis

The phantom time hypothesis is a historical conspiracy theory asserted by Heribert Illig. it hypothesizes a conspiracy by the Holy Roman Emperor Otto III, Pope Sylvester II, and possibly the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII, to fabricate the Anno Domini dating system retrospectively, in order to place them at the special year of AD 1000, and to rewrite history.

[Franny]

I believe it may have to do with Phantom time hypothesis

The phantom time hypothesis is a historical conspiracy theory asserted by Heribert Illig. it hypothesizes a conspiracy by the Holy Roman Emperor Otto III, Pope Sylvester II, and possibly the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII, to fabricate the Anno Domini dating system retrospectively, in order to place them at the special year of AD 1000, and to rewrite history.

Cliff mentioned Anatoly Fomenko, so, yes, it is about the reorganization of the historical time line. Cliff does not give a very coherent explanation :) There is quite a lot more to the theory than anyone would suspect. I have no dog in this race so I'm exploring it as well.

Anatoly Fomenko is Russian mathematician, professor at Moscow State University, well known as a topologist, and a member of the Russian Academy of Sciences. He is author of a theory known as New Chronology, based on works of Russian-Soviet writer and freemason Nikolai Alexandrovich Morozov. He is also a member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences (1991). He wrote a number of books some of which are available in PDF form.

In a few words, it proposes that history was rewritten and the timeline changed by the winners for their own purposes.

It's an idea that was well explored by Sylvie Ivanova on her NewEarth YT channel.

http://megaliths.org/ancient_history/newearth-youtube-channel-videos-palylists.php

This video more closely addresses the alteration of history but the previous videos lead up to it.

The Truth about the Reformation and the Gregorian Calendar Tricks - p 4 / When the Survivors Wake Up
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To get an idea of what the theory is about you can see more information on an Anatoly Fomenko website that has videos and essays.

Anatoly Fomenko (http://anatolyfomenko.com)


Synopsis of Conclusions

A.T.Fomenko , G.V.Nosovskiy

HOW IT WAS IN REALITY

PREFACE

1. THE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED VERSION OF WORLD HISTORY WAS CREATED ONLY IN THE XVII CENTURY. IT WAS REFINED UP UNTIL THE XIX CENTURY. THIS VERSION IS INCORRECT.

The present book occupies a unique place among our publications on the New Chronology. It was written by popular demand of our readers. Many people tell us: "You criticized the currently accepted version of chronology and the version of the history based on it. You suggested your dating methods and pointed out many duplicates (repetitions), considerably 'shortening' the written history of mankind. Suppose you are right. But then an important question arises: What happened in reality? Could you write a 'concise guide' on your new chronology and the new version of history"?

We fragmentarily outlined our reconstruction several times. Now, when a vast amount of material has accumulated, there arrived a moment to put together the main findings and to reconstruct the actual past. In [1v] and [2v] we showed that the archaeological and physical methods of dating which exist today, including the famous radiocarbon method, are unfortunately poorly suited for the dating of artefacts 1-2 thousand years old. These methods produce errors comparable to the age of the samples.

We will rely on the new chronology which we established based on the mathematical, empirical and statistical results presented in the first three books of the 'Chronology' in seven volumes and also in [6v3], ch.2. The main chronological shifts – by approximately 333 years, 1050 years and 1800 years discovered by A.T.Fomenko in 'ancient' and mediaeval history are indicated in the Global Chronological Map (ГХК) created by A.T.Fomenko in 1975-1979. The main research on the New Chronology was carried out by A.T.Fomenko, G.V.Nosovskiy, V.V.Kalashnikov and T.N.Fomenko.

We do not substantiate our point of view in this book. This would in fact lead to an actual repetition of everything said before. That is why we are presenting just a summary of the reconstruction. To see the evidence please refer to our previous main books, of which there are 24. These are the books of the 'first wave', i.e. seven volume 'Chronology' followed by the 17 books of the 'second wave' which are sometimes called the 'Golden Series' (due to its golden cover), i.e. B-1,…, B-17, see the Bibliography. The important materials are also sited on our official website www.chonologia.org. Many things said in this book are still a hypothesis.

Here we usually leave out the references to the primary sources. You can find them in our previous books. We do not claim to be extremely precise in the suggested dating. A great deal of work will be required to refine the new chronology and some hypothesis. That is why we still reconstruct history just 'by the centuries', i.e. stating the century of a given event, but without specifying the date within the century.

We showed that at present there is no proof of the Scaligerian chronology which is widely accepted today. Such proof – as we state with full authority – was never there and is still absent. Therefore the history of antiquity should be re-written. We are compelled to take this difficult task upon ourselves.

The New Chronology started from the creation of the new mathematical, statistical and astronomical methods of dating the events described in the old sources. Based on these methods we reconstructed the correct chronology of antiquity. This is our main result. Here it would be appropriate to recall the name of one of the books by A.T.Fomenko – 'THE TRUTH CAN BE COMPUTED'.

Then, based on the new Chronology, we generally outlined the reconstruction of history up to the XVIII century inclusively. It was followed by the next stage. They started asking us: so what IN REALITY did the famous 'classical' authors – Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Homer and the others tell us about? When answering the question we analysed practically all major 'classical' and mediaeval sources which form the foundation of the Scaligerian history of the antiquity, the building of which, as we found out, was rather late – in the XVII-XVIII cc.

In particular we thoroughly researched the following texts: the Bible (both the Old and the New Testaments), Talmud, Torah, the New and the Old Testaments 'Apocrypha', Koran, the Book of Mormon, Popol Vuh (the Sacred Book of the American K'iche Mayan people, Herodotus, Titus Livius, Claudius Ptolemy, Homer, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Marcus Tullius Cicero, Plutarch, Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Aristophanes, Ovid, Polybius, Pausanias, Virgil, Seneca, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Ammianus Marcellinus, Josephus Flavius, The Aggadah (Aramaic tales), Appian of Alexandria, Apollodorus, Eutropius, Sextus Aurelius Victor, Aelius Spartianus, Iulius Capitolinus, Aelius Lampridius, Paulus Orosius, John Malalas, Marco Polo, Giovanni da Pian del Carpine, the Epic of 'ancient' India 'Mahabharata', the Epic of the 'ancient' Persia 'Shahnameh' (Ferdowsi), the 'ancient' Germanic heroic verse, the 'ancient' Old Norse Edda 'Elder Edda', Geoffrey of Monmouth, Nennius, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Raphael Holinshed, Saxo Grammaticus, The Legend of King Arthur, The Legends of Alexander the Great, The Legend of Troy, the old French Legends, some important Muslim sources, going further Niketas Choniates, Anna Komnene, Procopius of Caesarea (and some other Byzantine authors), Geoffrey of Villehardouin, Robert de Clari, 'The Primary Chronicle' (or 'Tale of Bygone Years') and the other major Russian chronicles (including the Siberian chronicles), the Russian epic multivolume 'The Illustrated Chronicle of Ivan the Terrible'(Litsevoy Svod) (not long ago finally published by the Moscow publishing house Akteon), Mavro Orbini, Philostratus (Life of Apollonius of Tyana), Iamblichus Chalcidensis, Diogenes Laertius, Porphyry of Tyre, Bartolomé de las Casas, Bernal Díaz del Castillo, the works by some of the Church Fathers, the old chronological works and tables (Joseph Juste Scaliger, Dionysius Petavius, Matthew Blastares and many other) … We shall stop this listing and refer our readers to our books.

We have studied thousands of images: icons, paintings, drawings, etchings, frescos, mosaics, stained-glass art-works, tapestries, goblins, sculptures, bas-reliefs, gems, Cameos, coins, the images on the ceramics, enamel work, etc. Among other things there were discovered several dozens of the old zodiacs with some transcriptions of dates. Some of them were earlier unknown. We already dated over 40 zodiacs using the astronomic method and the effective computer generated algorithm of data analysis which we developed. It turned out that all these 'ancient' zodiacal dates fall into the epoch of the XI-XIX cc. and not at all into the 'distant past'. We actively continue this important work which greatly contributes to the 'backbone' of the New Chronology.

Here is another benefit of the new reading of the old texts. For instance, an interesting question: what were the old traditions in Russia earlier before the XVII century? It is not so easy to find an answer. As we already understand, that the chronicles of the Russian history in existence today were tendentiously edited and are distorting the true picture before the XVII century. So where should we derive the required information from? Apparently we should turn to the 'ancient' sources: Titus Levy, Herodotus, Tacitus and the others. They tell us a lot about 'Ancient Rome', i.e., as we showed, about Russia-Horde of the XIII-XVII cc. So this is where we should extract the old testimonies about the Hordians, who in these sources are called the 'Ancient Romans' or the 'Ancient Scythians' or the 'Ancient Egyptians'. Roughly speaking, the 'ancient Roman' traditions are indeed the ancient Russian traditions of the epoch of the XIV-XVI cc. Incidentally the very notion of 'nations' and 'nationalities' developed later, not earlier than the XVI-XVII cc.

But let's get back to our list of the old authors. It turns out that practically all of these surviving texts and chronicles (many of them are linked to each other) in fact tell us about the events of the XI-XVII cc. It was cast back into the distant (sometimes enormously distant) phantom past by the incorrect Scaligerian chronology. Miscalculating it not just by the tens and hundreds, but even by thousands of years!

At the same time it turned out that there were not that many primary sources 'on antiquity'. They occupy just a few selves in the bookcase. And so we shouldn't think that in order to reconstruct the past a 'great deal' of sources are required. Apparently about seven - eight dozen is quite sufficient.

Besides the reputed chroniclers the accounts of the antiquity were given to us by the distinguished poets, dramatists and writers. For instance, Homer and Virgil, whose works proved to be extremely valuable for the reconstruction of the true history. Or the famous Shakespeare. The new chronology throws a bright and unexpected light on their writings. At last we can understand what in fact these great authors wrote about.

Before proceeding with the reconstruction which greatly differs from the version of Scaliger-Petavius familiar today [1v], [2v] we should give a summary of how the Scaligerian history came about. This was finally clarified only over the course of our research.

The historical primary sources accessible today which are published and available in the public archives are the comprising element of the Scaligerian version and were created along with it. Notably by way of distortion and purposeful editing of the truly old documents. The old texts themselves which gave the correct accounts of the history were mercilessly destroyed. All of this took place in the XVII-XVIII cc. over the course of the international European program of re-writing the ancient and mediaeval history. What and who was it necessary for, see [6v2], ch.1. The program had the state support both in Europe and in Romanov Russia. Then in the XVIII-XIX cc. The Scaligerian version was integrated in Asia and China. Based on it the Asian and the Chinese 'ancient' chronologies were constructed.

PRACTICALLY ALL THE EVENTS DESCRIBED IN THE OLD – EVEN EDITED – DOCUMENTS, TOOK PLACE. ANOTHER QUESTION IS – WHERE AND WHEN? This is where the chronological and geographical confusion occurred. Also the deliberate distortion led to the 'lengthening of the history'. There were of course some natural chronological mistakes. But the main role was paid by the tendentious editing.

In the epoch of the XVII-XVIII cc. to support the imbedded Scaligerian version nearly all the editions of the works by the 'classical' Greek and Roman authors, the Mediaeval chronicles and memoires published today, were consciously created.

The sources, which accidentally avoided censorship, were meticulously searched for over the two hundred years and either destroyed or eliminated from circulation. This also continued in the XIX century. The perfect example is the purposeful destruction of the Sulakedzev library [4v2], v.2:9. In the XIX century, all the more so today, such old surviving authentic texts were perceived as something ludicrous, not worthy of serious study. The historians immediately begin to argue about forgery or the ignorance of the chronicler.

It is important to understand that today when publishing the primary sources they undergo – whether consciously or subconsciously – a rigorous censorship of them corresponding to the Scaligerian version. Only the primary sources which fit the familiar picture are considered to be 'worthy of attention'. As a result only the texts which underwent the targeted editing of the XVII-XVIII cc. are introduced into circulation.

WE DISCOVERED THAT THERE IS A DISTINCTLY DEFINED BOUNDARY IN HISTORY – THE FIRST HALF OF THE XVII CENTURY. We know more or less what happened after this point, i.e. closer to our time. In any case, beginning with the end of the XVIII century. But we have a very poor knowledge of what took place prior to the middle of the XVII century. This border line appeared artificially. It is not a result of the natural forgetting the information. It separates the accurate chronology from the incorrect one.

Today it is accepted as an axiom that the Scaligerian version and the true history is the same thing. But it is not true. The historians who think that they study the 'ancient' and the mediaeval history in are fact analysing not the reality, but an artificial world, some fairy-tale phantom-mirage, created by the historians and editors of the XVII-XVIII cc. Today the historians use the distorted and edited texts from the XVII-XVIII mistakenly considering them as the 'authentic ancient primary sources'. The historians are immersed in a fantasy world, spending their entire professional life in it. They have no idea that this 'virtual reality' was concocted by their recent predecessors.

The made up world turned out to be complex, intricate and at first glance gives the impression of something very solid and consistent. But it is not so. Unbiased outside perspective, based on the objective methods of dating, rather quickly detects all the tell-tale signs of the sandcastle in the fairy tale construction. Further analysis results in this building collapsing.

So why today do the historians work in the end only with those texts and their derivatives which were edited in the XVII-XVIII cc.? This is the pressure from a certain school and long standing beliefs. At some point they were imbedded by force, and now they have grown into the 'accepted facts'.

Of course, it was not possible to destroy all the pre-Scaligerian documents. Some of them must exist even today. But imagine that the expert on the 'Scaligerian mirage' came across an authentic document describing for instance the epoch of the XV-XVI cc. The difference between the true history of that epoch and its Scaligerian depiction is so great, that it would be difficult even to cross-reference this document with the familiar picture. Or even to understand what it is about. Not to mention that it would most likely be written with 'obscure hieroglyphs'. As the 'ancient calligraphy' familiar to us today is in fact the handwriting of the falsifiers - editors of the XVII-XVIII cc. Taken that, as a rule this scholar would have never come across the real handwriting and scripts of the XV-XVI cc., not to mention the earlier epochs.

That is why a random old authentic text they might come across fortuitously would be most likely declared 'unreadable'. Which incidentally, then happens. If they succeed in reading it they declare it 'a strange fruit of the mediaeval ignorance'.

The books which are marked as published in the XV-XVI cc. often turn out to be the XVII-XVIII cc. forgeries with the year of publication being backdated. Allegedly 'earlier'. The mass publication of such books in the XVII-XVIII cc. comprises an important part of the 'substantiation' of the Scaligerian version. The authentic books of the XV-XVI cc. were condemned and destroyed.

Many genuine official documents of Western Europe of the XVI century issued by the Imperial Hordian chancery were written, as we understand it now, in Slavic. Many books published then in the Western Europe were also Slavonic [6v1], ch.2. Incidentally, the fact of the wide publication of the Slavonic books in the XVI century Europe is known to the experts. In that epoch Slavonic was the international language. Later 'ancient' Latin was created on its foundation [7v2].

The transition from the Slavonic language to Latin as the international language in Europe took place only after the collapse of the Great Empire at the end of the XVI-XVII cc. Most likely Latin in its developed 'ancient' state emerged only in the XVI-XVII cc. That is why all the 'ancient' Latin texts, in the best case scenario, are the translations into the Latin designated as the 'ancient' language, carried out in the epoch of the XVI-XVIII cc. The Scaligerian version was immediately introduced into such translations.

The same can be said about the 'ancient' Greek language. It was also created together with all the 'ancient' Greek literature in the epoch of the XVI-XVIII cc. The 'ancient Greek primary sources' were immediately written, translated and edited in this language. The genuine ancient language is probably the Middle Greek, the Byzantine Greek. It's not a coincidence that it differs from the Modern Greek language, unlike the 'Ancient' Greek which is close to the Modern Greek. All the 'classical Greek' literature is also heavily edited XVI-XVIII cc. translations of the old texts into the recently invented 'classical' language.

The invention of the Scaligerian version of history was a consequence of the major political reconstruction of the world in the late XVI-early XVII cc. Following the collapse of the 'Mongol' Empire the new autonomous small states emerged from its fragments. The former imperial governors became the independent sovereigns. At first they feared the return of the old 'Mongol' order. That is why they strived to create the 'long standing ancient roots' of their authority in the historical past. The main purpose of the new historical version by Scaliger and Petavius was to distort the history of the XIV-XVI cc.in the required direction. It was falsified intentionally.

Only now we begin to understand the scale of the Global program of the XVII century of creating the fictitious history of the past. We should not be surprised at the coordination of action on falsifying history between different countries. Until the end of the XVI century nearly all the European and Asian countries were a part of the one united Empire. That is why all the governors were from one circle of imperial officials. At first, after the collapse of the Empire the ties between its former provinces were still strong.

Just the beginning of the 'historical reform' falls at the end of the XVI century. The main falsification, including the creation of the 'ancient sources' was carried out in the XVII-XVIII cc, when the Empire had already collapsed. I.e. after the Time of Troubles in Russia and the Romanovs' victory over Stepan Razin. There was also a lot done in this direction in the end of the XVIII century, particularly after the Romanovs' victory over Yemelyan 'Pugachev' in the war of the 1773-1775. ONLY BEGINNING WITH THE XIX CENTURY THE SCALIGERIAN VERSION OF HISTORY ACQUIRED ITS PRESENT DAY FORM.

To clarify, today we use an established 'new era' chronology. However, we should treat it only as a purely notional timeline. One of many possible. As it becomes clear, in the 'beginning of the new era', i.e. circa 2010 years ago, no significant event, the accounts of which survived, ever took place. Moreover, no data whatsoever survives from that distant epoch. More specifically it is incorrect to call this era as the Christian era, as we do today. As according to our results the Nativity of Christ took place nearly a thousand years later. Namely in the XII century according to the conditional 'new era'.

Usually, when formulating our hypothesis, we always use the words 'possibly', 'likely', etc. But as this book is entirely dedicated to our reconstruction we will not all the time repeat these words while constantly implying them. We do not insist on some of our observations. We would like you to remember this. As our reconstruction is unfamiliar to many readers, we sometimes repeat some of our conclusions for the better absorption.

IN VARIOUS ANCIENT TEXTS THE WORDS WERE WRITTEN DOWN USING ONLY CONSONANTS, WITHOUT VOWELS. Please see the details in the book by A.T.Fomenko [1v], ch.1:8. The vowels appeared later and pinpointed only one of many possible variants of the reading of the words. First of all it concerns the proper nouns and led to the significant ambiguity in the reading of the old names, geographical names etc. In the old text there was also no breakdown into separate words. Besides there could be confusion between the sounds L and R, F and T, B and V, etc. The Old Slavonic had multiple omissions of vowels and besides, it didn't have the separation into words. The 'Ancient' Egyptian texts were also written with the consonants only. 'The names of the (Egyptian – Author) kings… are given (in the modern literature – Author) in their conditional, ENTIRELY FREEFORM, so called CLASSROOM … delivery customarily accepted in the textbooks … These forms often significantly differ from each other and it is not possible to regulate them in any way, as they are all the result of the ARBITRARY READING (! – Author), which became traditional' [72], p.176. Also 'the Hebrew written language originally had neither vowels, nor any other symbols replacing them… The Books of the Old Testament were written using only consonants' [765], p.155.

We were able to discover the 'parallels' between the events within the different periods of the 'ancient' history only thanks to the new chronology. Without it, it would have been impossible to understand who should be compared to whom and what should be compared to what? The bulk of the material is so vast, that it is practically impossible to fumble for the right parallels in it at random. But now, when we have reconstructed the chronological 'framework of history', a wonderful opportunity opens up to enrich this formal result with the 'content of the events'. This is the exact way to treat the 'biographical' matches which we present. They are not the strict proof on their own per se. But they logically arise from the new chronology established via the mathematical methods. First we calculate the dates and only then, based on them, read the old documents anew and begin to see the true essence. The fact is that the dates of the events strongly define the interpretation of history and allow us now to choose the correct interpretation of the sources from many possible ones.

2. THE PSYCHOLOGICAL NOTES.

Today the word 'antiquity' is usually associated with the events earlier than the V century A.D., for instance. 'Deep antiquity' is earlier than, let's say, the X century B.C. 'Deepest antiquity' is as far back as the II millennium B.C. The custom, widely accepted today, for this particular time scale is one of the serious psychological obstructions in the way of the perception of the new short chronology. But this psychological interpretation of the word 'antiquity', which became familiar today, didn't appear all on its own. And not so long ago. It is a result of the artificial imbedding of the extremely prolonged chronology over the last 300 years. The very idea of the 'extremely long written history' lay on the fertile ground of the natural human respect towards the clan's remembrance of their own genealogical tree. You can understand the feelings of the people striving to glance into the distant past of their ancestors. The further they can see the higher is their personal self-esteem.

The new chronology dictates a different psychological picture of the perception of the past. Now the word 'antiquity' should be corresponding with the XV-XVII cc, i.e. with the events distant from us by 300-400 years. The expression 'high antiquity' means the XI-XII cc. EARLIER THE X-XI CC. COMES THE EPOCH OF THE SILENCE OF THE WRITTEN DOCUMENTS. No written evidence from those times whether on paper, parchment, papyrus or the stones – has survived. Thus the words 'antiquity', 'high antiquity' and 'extreme antiquity' stay in our lexicon. However they are imbued with a different meaning. These epochs are becoming significantly closer to us and the time scale greatly decreased. We should accept that based on the written sources we are able to peer into the past not as far as we thought we could yesterday. But everything we saw yesterday is visible today. Only closer.

To conclude: based on the mathematical and astronomical methods we have put forward, it is shown that the Scaligerian chronology and history are fundamentally wrong. History up until the beginning of the XVII century was falsified in the epoch of the XVII-XVIII cc. The falsification was accompanied with the search and annihilation of the documents which provided the true accounts of the past. Primarily it concerned the XV-XVI cc., the memory of which was destroyed with particular thoroughness. These activities relentlessly continued for nearly two hundred years. This is a sufficient amount of time to destroy all the major texts which could have told the truth. Therefore we cannot expect that some detailed factual chronicle written by an eyewitness of the events of the XVI century would fall into our hands.

Therefore the 'small details', the scraps of truth that were not cleared out and accidentally survived acquire a special importance. And taken together they allow us to restore the truth. The study of the Scaligerian history can be compared to the work of a detective exposing a criminal who had invented a plausible legend and took care of his alibi. That is why it is necessary to at first search for the true picture in the little things, which escaped the attention of the criminal, who was covering up his tracks. As it is difficult to take into account all the details when inventing a false version. And the experienced detective 'digs them up'. Getting hold of pieces of evidence gradually 'unfolds' all the circumstances of the crime.

We express our gratitude to T.N.Fomenko – the co-author of much our research on the chronology. We co-wrote a number of books with T.N.Fomenko.

A.T.Fomenko, G.V.Nosovsky
Moscow, Lomonosov Moscow State University.

[Bill Ryan]

[a lot of interesting stuff from A.T. Fomenko and G.V. Nosovskiy]I don't buy it for a moment. :) I'm not a historian, but I do know quite a lot about the history of mathematics (and to a slightly lesser extent, the history of science).

Math is an excellent microcosm of history here, because all mathematical discoveries, proofs and innovations build on one another in a clear logical accumulating sequence. As Isaac Newton famously said in 1675: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

One can follow the through-lines in detail, generation by generation, century by century, lifetime by lifetime, genius by genius. This page (https://www.storyofmathematics.com/mathematicians.html) lists them all out, in sequence.

There's no way any of this was time-compressed. You can't compress out all these generations of real people, whose work is documented, known, researched, studied, and understood. All that time was needed (and so were all those great minds) to build the entire edifice of modern mathematical thought.

[Praxis]

[a lot of interesting stuff from A.T. Fomenko and G.V. Nosovskiy]I don't buy it for a moment. :) I'm not a historian, but I do know quite a lot about the history of mathematics (and to a slightly lesser extent, the history of science).

Math is an excellent microcosm of history here, because all mathematical discoveries, proofs and innovations build on one another in a clear logical accumulating sequence. As Isaac Newton famously said in 1675: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

One can follow the through-lines in detail, generation by generation, century by century, lifetime by lifetime, genius by genius. This page (https://www.storyofmathematics.com/mathematicians.html) lists them all out, in sequence.

There's no way any of this was time-compressed. You can't compress out all these generations of real people, whose work is documented, known, researched, studied, and understood. All that time was needed (and so were all those great minds) to build the entire edifice of modern mathematical thought.

Thank you so much for being a rational actor here.

I actually met a person IRL that was pushing this idea and it struck me as SUPER eurocentrist. So not only was the pope and HRE Otto in so much control of Europe they could force the east to forget their history as well! There are even councils that were held in these eras no? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council

So in the time that was removed, there was heavily struggle in the christian sphere over the nature of christ and icon( this is actually where the term iconoclasm comes from and iconoclast refers to a religious stance on Icons which was a big deal in Byzantine Empire).


I think if you actually do as Bill has done and pick a specific topic and then trace backwards, you can actually disprove this idea pretty easily.

I think people are confusing the fact that fewer people were writing history so it can appear maybe that it didnt happen.

[Zionbrion]

Thank you for the replies, I was flabbergasted...a conspiracy I had never heard of! Hehehe

I don’t buy it myself.

His web bot predictions are interesting, but most his tweets I am like wtf are you trying to say?! Lol

[Kryztian]

[a lot of interesting stuff from A.T. Fomenko and G.V. Nosovskiy]I don't buy it for a moment. :)


Me neither BUT I have to say it gave me a good laugh and made me think, in the same way that hearing about the Flat Earth theory did. How does one quickly, and efficiently debunk this theory, which was obviously constructed by some rather intelligent, knowledgeable and creative individuals.

I would suggest that there are many was of looking scientifically, at the physical evidence that coincided with historical events and look at:


carbon dating of archeological artifacts and of manuscripts, scrolls, papyrus texts etc.
dating historical events against astronomical events (eclipses, planetary alignments, comets)
dating historical events with geological events (earth quakes, volcanos)
describing events in terms of weather and comparing this to weather records, including dendrochronological dating (tree rings)


Until Fomenko and Nosovskiy and their followers can demonstrate these theories against these pieces of physical evidence, and show had the record is wrong in European, Imperial Chinese, Mayan, and in other cultures that record dates and have recorded histories against these dates, I am 100% unconvinced by their version of history.

[Sunny-side-up]

[a lot of interesting stuff from A.T. Fomenko and G.V. Nosovskiy]I don't buy it for a moment. :) I'm not a historian, but I do know quite a lot about the history of mathematics (and to a slightly lesser extent, the history of science).

Math is an excellent microcosm of history here, because all mathematical discoveries, proofs and innovations build on one another in a clear logical accumulating sequence. As Isaac Newton famously said in 1675: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

One can follow the through-lines in detail, generation by generation, century by century, lifetime by lifetime, genius by genius. This page (https://www.storyofmathematics.com/mathematicians.html) lists them all out, in sequence.

There's no way any of this was time-compressed. You can't compress out all these generations of real people, whose work is documented, known, researched, studied, and understood. All that time was needed (and so were all those great minds) to build the entire edifice of modern mathematical thought.

I hear you Bill.

But I also think that so much of our history has been withheld.
Taking Mr N.Tesla as an example, if we had been able to have all of his work out in the open where would we be now.
So much has been hidden away and or destroyed for our own sake, well yes and no.
Our history is always a 'TheirStory' and we just follow it as true (mainly for their power).

If we where given a book covering the next 1000 years of the story would that be a good thing (would there even be much in it as far as new knowledge)?
The last 1000 years has been drip feed out to us BTPTB, as if it was all new, well I don't think it is, we have been around and around many times and someone or some thing has the clear, full picture.
just my thoughts.

[silvanelf]

Until Fomenko and Nosovskiy and their followers can demonstrate these theories against these pieces of physical evidence, and show had the record is wrong in European, Imperial Chinese, Mayan, and in other cultures that record dates and have recorded histories against these dates, I am 100% unconvinced by their version of history.

A snippet from a customer review published on Amazon -- please note that the author is a historian:



And now a brief history of... well history, as seen through Fomenko-vision:

History begins when Andronicos Comnenos dies and becomes Jesus. History records him as an unsuccessful Greek emperor with no real successes who was beaten to death by the mob and not a poor prophet from Nazareth who was crucified but hey, what do they know. It's not like the crucifixion was an important part of the story or anything. Immediately all of Europe decides that they're Christian and march against the Muslims. It may sound confusing why they'd blame the Muslims for what was an internal coup but they were probably just confused because Mohammed wasn't born yet. At some point they changed their minds and decided to skip the first three crusades and jump straight onto the Fourth (except that they didn't. It was actually the same as the First. Obviously. Please try and keep up).

They then sacked Constantinople which was also Rome which was Troy which was Jerusalem. At some point they get confused and occupied the Holy Land as well and then forget all about Constantinople and let it fall back to the Greeks since Jerusalem was now Constantinople which was Troy which was Rome. People back then had very short memories often forgetting why they did something before they even did it. Very sad. During the First Crusade the Greeks decide to avenge the kidnapping of their queen by... also sacking Constantinople. After sacking their own city they quietly vanish for a few years, probably in embarrassment.

Some time later Erasmus wrote the New Testament confusing generations of scholars who wondered what they had been copying out for all that time. Having now written a New Testament it was decided that they needed an Old one. I'm sure the reasons for the reversed order are as obvious to everyone else as they are to Fomenko.

Some time in the 15th Century David rose up, except that he was Turkish and ruled in Constantinople. Despite the many wars with the Turks Europe had never warred with the Turks and accepted all of these events as holy writ. After all, the Turks were really Russian in funny hats and the Russians ruled the world. The Byzantines were secretly ruling in England.

After the death of Solomon (Suleimon) the Jews split off from Christianity because they were tired of not being persecuted because of something they didn't do and decided that being hunted by the Inquisition was more fun. In the confusion the Catholics and Orthodox Christians split apart as well because everyone else was doing it and it seemed a good idea at the time. They were to regret this later when the Catholics sacked their city but that had already happened so it was fine.

You can read the whole review here -- it's pretty interesting:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3J3GFFQLUFTTA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=2913621074

[Kryztian]

From Wikipedia, on how Anatoly Formenko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko#Historical_revisionism) developed his view of history:

During the Soviet years, Fomenko was frequently involved in the state-sponsored studies, an open source analysis, the subject of which was contemporary Western media news, which were analysed and searched for misinterpretations of actual events by mixed teams consisting of various Soviet scholars, using interdisciplinary approach and statistical analysis of textual information in particular. They routinely received the latest translated issues of the New York Times, The Washington Post, BBC dispatches, etc., as well as wide array of various national and local newspapers, radio and television transcripts, and other open sources, searched them carefully for discrepancies and inconsistencies, preparing the consolidated reports for the official use only. Dealing professionally with biased information in the media, at some point Fomenko became obsessed with an idea that the entire history of mankind was skilfully falsified on purpose, and decided to apply the same methods he used during his contemporary studies to study ancient events. Thus, he simply ignores many written sources, as if they are biased media, and it is usual for the contemporary media to copy and reprint with minor copy editing some stories, originally published by the others, implying that if the original source is itself biased, then its renderings in other sources are no better, and multiplied by language barrier and broken telephone-effect they only add a confusion to already inaccurate picture. Based on that general idea, he proposed to use methods of exact sciences and natural science instead of just relying on a good faith of ancient chronologists and authors, that certain historical events could be traced and dated accurately by matching them to natural events of the time (such as eclipses, eruptions, etc.) cross-referenced in various eyewitness accounts. While some of his colleagues agree that indeed certain historical events require a very careful reexamination based on methods, which became available by today's cutting edge technology, Fomenko goes further and tries to re-examine the entire history.

And from the New Chronology blog (https://evilempire.blog/about-2/):


Dear sceptical Reader-Antagonist,

Thank you for looking at or mayhap joining a riot! Feel younger by a couple of millennia. Frankly speaking, we like invigorating History à la Fomenko. For an Alternative History, it is certainly one. The best part of it is that this version of Universal History has astronomy, statistics and computers on its side.

Your scepticism is welcome. Just add to it a touch of your own sound reason and logic when reading this book. Step by step you will come to simple, but a mind-boggling conclusion that Antiquity and Dark Ages are phantoms invented in XVI – XVIII centuries. Human civilization is barely 1000 years old!

Not quite what you have learned in school? This version of world history is more substantiated by hard facts and logic – validated by new astronomical research and statistical analysis of ancient manuscripts – than all that you have learned, read and heard about history before.

The so-called universal classic world history is a pack of intricate lies for all events prior to the XVI century. It was completely fabricated in the XVI-XVIII centuries. It’s likely that nobody told you before, but there is not a single piece of firm written evidence or artefact that is reliably and independently dated prior to the XI century.

Naturally, after everything you’ve learned, read and heard in school and university, you will not believe that the classical history of ancient Rome, Greece, Asia, Egypt, China, Japan, India, etc., is manifestly false. Naturally you’ll point burning accusing fingers to the pyramids in Egypt, to the Coliseum in Rome and Great Wall of China etc., and claim, aren’t they really ancient?

They are certainly very old, but what proves they are scores of thousands of years old? The history described in written chronicles begins with the XI century only. Everything prior to that is pre-history, which we can only guess about. Homo sapiens invented writing only 1000 years ago. Once invented, writing was immediately and irreversibly put to the use of ruling powers and science.

The consensual chronology we live with was essentially crafted in the XVI century from the contradictory mix of innumerable copies of ancient Latin and Greek manuscripts (all originals have somehow disappeared in the Dark Ages, as illiterate monks kept only copies) and the irrefutable proofs delivered by the late mediaeval astronomers, cemented by the authority of writings of the Church Fathers.


https://i.imgur.com/Pg5fHLm.jpg

The "New Chronology" of Formenko et. al. is an epic work. The 3rd Edition of this seven volume work is probably about 4,000 pages, and these are large pages with two columns per page. There are also many more books on more specific topics: "Maps and Coins vs History", "The Issue with Ivan the Terrible", "The Issue with Chinese Astronomy", "The Great Wall of China Hoax", etc.

Unlike the "Flat Earth" theory, which becomes evidently bunk to any one with a modest science background in about 15 minutes, this is a big theory to contend with and I don't think I will ever be able in this lifetime to look into it enough to make a reasonable judgement.

But I hope someone else will.:sun:

[Kryztian]

Suggesting a topic change for this thread:"Anatoly Formenko's theory of the "New Chronology" . Or maybe "What is Anatoly Formenko smoking?"





From Bill: Yes, good idea, and done :thumbsup:

[silvanelf]

The "New Chronology" of Formenko et. al. is an epic work. The 3rd Edition of this seven volume work is probably about 4,000 pages, and these are large pages with two columns per page. There are also many more books on more specific topics: "Maps and Coins vs History", "The Issue with Ivan the Terrible", "The Issue with Chinese Astronomy", "The Great Wall of China Hoax", etc.

Unlike the "Flat Earth" theory, which becomes evidently bunk to any one with a modest science background in about 15 minutes, this is a big theory to contend with and I don't think I will ever be able in this lifetime to look into it enough to make a reasonable judgement.

But I hope someone else will.:sun:

First of all you have to consider that Fomenko uses Gish gallop to promote his view:


The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique that involves overwhelming your opponent with as many arguments as possible, with no regard for the relevance, validity, or accuracy of those arguments. For example, a person using the Gish gallop might attempt to support their stance by bringing up, in rapid succession, a large number of vague claims, anecdotal statements, misinterpreted facts, and irrelevant comments.

https://effectiviology.com/gish-gallop/

Counterexamples are very powerful, because a single well-founded counterexample can disprove the whole "New Chronology" at once. Bill used the history of math as a counterexample, while a historian used the existence of ancient artifacts as a counterexample against Fomenko's theory:


Math is an excellent microcosm of history here, because all mathematical discoveries, proofs and innovations build on one another in a clear logical accumulating sequence. As Isaac Newton famously said in 1675: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

One can follow the through-lines in detail, generation by generation, century by century, lifetime by lifetime, genius by genius. This page (https://www.storyofmathematics.com/mathematicians.html) lists them all out, in sequence.

There's no way any of this was time-compressed. You can't compress out all these generations of real people, whose work is documented, known, researched, studied, and understood. All that time was needed (and so were all those great minds) to build the entire edifice of modern mathematical thought.

Here is a historian about the discovery of ancient artifacts which belong to the Roman era:


Having shown what utter rot his selective use of facts is it's time to turn to the facts that he doesn't want people to know. Starting with something I mentioned above: documents. While parchment doesn't last forever as I have said, there are certain conditions which allow it to be preserved for much longer than it would normally be. These finds are rare but offer a valuable insight into the ancient world. The most famous of these finds comes from Vindolanda. This was a Roman fort just below Hadrian's Wall. There were a series of letters written on thin slivers of wood which were preserved underwater in the muddy ground. These letters dealt with common every day things including troop strength, parties, new clothing, etc. They also include selections from Roman literature that Fomenko dismisses as forgeries. These documents are originals, not copies, and deal with an everyday Roman life that Fomenko claims never existed.

The key points is this: there was no way that a group of Jesuits working in the 16th Century could have known that anyone would have the technology to read what was written. The processes used to recover the letters was invented by archaeologists in the 1970s including the infrared photography needed to recover them. There was no way that Jesuits could have known that they would survive by chance, would be discovered, or could be read once they had been. Furthermore, what would be the point? It's not like people doubted the Romans existed. Why create all of this useless information only to bury it forever in a place where it should have rotted away? Especially in Protestant England where Jesuits weren't exactly welcome? This parchment find is not the only one. There is a major dump in Egypt (also outside Jesuit control) and smaller ones in several other places around Europe and the Middle East. Furthermore, the building that the Vindolanda documents was found in was clearly Roman in design and structure. Which brings me 'round to my next point.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3J3GFFQLUFTTA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=2913621074

[Kryztian]

First of all you have to consider that Fomenko uses Gish gallop to promote his view:
https://effectiviology.com/gish-gallop/



Thanks for educating me on Gish-Gallop. This is a great idea in explaining how narcicissts work. They make argument after argument. You thoroughly debunk one in a way that should be embarrassing too them and go on to the next one as if they were the most righteous, innocent, victimized person in the world. But I don't see how it applies to Formenko's New Chronology Theory.

According to the definition of Gish-Galop from effectiviology.com (https://effectiviology.com/gish-gallop/)



It’s far easier to raise numerous unsubstantiated points than it is to refute them properly.
People generally prefer short and simple arguments, which are easy for them to process.


The 4000 plus pages of Formenko's books are anything but simple, unsubstantiated arguments. There are lengthy analyses of maps, zodiac charts, coins, archeological artifacts, texts, etc. After spending time with them an analyzing his work, you might disagree about the details, or you might create some meta-analysis for why he is wrong, but this is not just bombarding you with bad information to quickly and cheaply sway your opinion. If you look at the look at the quote above I took from the New Chronology blog, they are inviting criticism and thoughtfulness.

You can often successfully make a point with just one piece of evidence, however, more evidence makes the case stronger, not weaker, as long as it's good evidence. As far a I can see, none of us has delved into the details to determine whether the evidence is good or bad here.

Many theories are often considered to be non-scientific because they are not falsifiable. For instance, for some, the theory of anthropogenic global warming is confirmed by every possible type of weather, heat waves, blizzards, drought and heavy rain, even unremarkable weather. The theory (as expressed by some) does not concede that there are weather patterns which will refute the theory.

The converse has to be practiced here to if the New Chronology theory is to be debunked. You have to have conditions where the theory could be affirmed as being true. What could prove it to be true: a three sentences syllogism? a 60 minute power point presentation, or a 4,000 page encyclopedia now in it's third edition? Certainly, not the latter.

If you want to properly debunk this theory, you have to look at it qualitatively, not quantitatively, and that has not been done, at least not in this thread on Avalon.

[Kryztian]

Math is an excellent microcosm of history here, because all mathematical discoveries, proofs and innovations build on one another in a clear logical accumulating sequence. As Isaac Newton famously said in 1675: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

One can follow the through-lines in detail, generation by generation, century by century, lifetime by lifetime, genius by genius. This page (https://www.storyofmathematics.com/mathematicians.html) lists them all out, in sequence.



Not sure I would agree. The theory state that time was compress before the 1600's. After 1600, most of these mathematicians were European and were probably familiar with much of the work with each other, although not always. Both Leibniz and Descartes were working on the foundations of Calculus and were pretty much unaware of the other even though they were a few hundred miles apart.

Before 1600 ("compressed time" according to the theory), we see that the work in mathematics is done in many disparate locations that were not in contact with each other. For instance Yang Hui in China and Kamal al-Din al-Farisi in Persia were contemporaries however, the were clearly unfamiliar with each others work. Also, the mathematical discoveries of one were not based on the work of the other. The only mathematics here before 1600 that seems to be closely linked is the work on quadratic equations that occured in Italy in the 1500s. The revisionist theorist could claim that Benedictine and Jesuit monks re-wrote the mathematical works of one person, or three people living simultaneously, and "stretched out time" to make it look like these discoveries happened more slowly.

[onevoice]

From Wikipedia, on how Anatoly Formenko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko#Historical_revisionism) developed his view of history:

During the Soviet years, Fomenko was frequently involved in the state-sponsored studies, an open source analysis, the subject of which was contemporary Western media news, which were analysed and searched for misinterpretations of actual events by mixed teams consisting of various Soviet scholars, using interdisciplinary approach and statistical analysis of textual information in particular. They routinely received the latest translated issues of the New York Times, The Washington Post, BBC dispatches, etc., as well as wide array of various national and local newspapers, radio and television transcripts, and other open sources, searched them carefully for discrepancies and inconsistencies, preparing the consolidated reports for the official use only. Dealing professionally with biased information in the media, at some point Fomenko became obsessed with an idea that the entire history of mankind was skilfully falsified on purpose, and decided to apply the same methods he used during his contemporary studies to study ancient events. Thus, he simply ignores many written sources, as if they are biased media, and it is usual for the contemporary media to copy and reprint with minor copy editing some stories, originally published by the others, implying that if the original source is itself biased, then its renderings in other sources are no better, and multiplied by language barrier and broken telephone-effect they only add a confusion to already inaccurate picture. Based on that general idea, he proposed to use methods of exact sciences and natural science instead of just relying on a good faith of ancient chronologists and authors, that certain historical events could be traced and dated accurately by matching them to natural events of the time (such as eclipses, eruptions, etc.) cross-referenced in various eyewitness accounts. While some of his colleagues agree that indeed certain historical events require a very careful reexamination based on methods, which became available by today's cutting edge technology, Fomenko goes further and tries to re-examine the entire history.

And from the New Chronology blog (https://evilempire.blog/about-2/):


Dear sceptical Reader-Antagonist,

Thank you for looking at or mayhap joining a riot! Feel younger by a couple of millennia. Frankly speaking, we like invigorating History à la Fomenko. For an Alternative History, it is certainly one. The best part of it is that this version of Universal History has astronomy, statistics and computers on its side.

Your scepticism is welcome. Just add to it a touch of your own sound reason and logic when reading this book. Step by step you will come to simple, but a mind-boggling conclusion that Antiquity and Dark Ages are phantoms invented in XVI – XVIII centuries. Human civilization is barely 1000 years old!

Not quite what you have learned in school? This version of world history is more substantiated by hard facts and logic – validated by new astronomical research and statistical analysis of ancient manuscripts – than all that you have learned, read and heard about history before.

The so-called universal classic world history is a pack of intricate lies for all events prior to the XVI century. It was completely fabricated in the XVI-XVIII centuries. It’s likely that nobody told you before, but there is not a single piece of firm written evidence or artefact that is reliably and independently dated prior to the XI century.

Naturally, after everything you’ve learned, read and heard in school and university, you will not believe that the classical history of ancient Rome, Greece, Asia, Egypt, China, Japan, India, etc., is manifestly false. Naturally you’ll point burning accusing fingers to the pyramids in Egypt, to the Coliseum in Rome and Great Wall of China etc., and claim, aren’t they really ancient?

They are certainly very old, but what proves they are scores of thousands of years old? The history described in written chronicles begins with the XI century only. Everything prior to that is pre-history, which we can only guess about. Homo sapiens invented writing only 1000 years ago. Once invented, writing was immediately and irreversibly put to the use of ruling powers and science.

The consensual chronology we live with was essentially crafted in the XVI century from the contradictory mix of innumerable copies of ancient Latin and Greek manuscripts (all originals have somehow disappeared in the Dark Ages, as illiterate monks kept only copies) and the irrefutable proofs delivered by the late mediaeval astronomers, cemented by the authority of writings of the Church Fathers.


https://i.imgur.com/Pg5fHLm.jpg

The "New Chronology" of Formenko et. al. is an epic work. The 3rd Edition of this seven volume work is probably about 4,000 pages, and these are large pages with two columns per page. There are also many more books on more specific topics: "Maps and Coins vs History", "The Issue with Ivan the Terrible", "The Issue with Chinese Astronomy", "The Great Wall of China Hoax", etc.

Unlike the "Flat Earth" theory, which becomes evidently bunk to any one with a modest science background in about 15 minutes, this is a big theory to contend with and I don't think I will ever be able in this lifetime to look into it enough to make a reasonable judgement.

But I hope someone else will.:sun:

For those interested, I found Volume I and II of this book online.

History: Fiction Or Science? (Chronology, No. 1) (https://b-ok.cc/book/638979/c1edef) - 624 pages.

History: Fiction Or Science? (Chronology, No. 2) (https://b-ok.cc/book/918438/7967e8) - 560 pages.

[silvanelf]

The only mathematics here before 1600 that seems to be closely linked is the work on quadratic equations that occured in Italy in the 1500s. The revisionist theorist could claim that Benedictine and Jesuit monks re-wrote the mathematical works of one person, or three people living simultaneously, and "stretched out time" to make it look like these discoveries happened more slowly.

Your claim about just "one person, or three people living simultaneously" is a myth. The simple fact that the University of Bologna was teaching astronomy and mathematics, which contradicts the assumption that during that time span only a few mathematicians were working in isolation.


Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) was the most famous student to take advantage of mathematics and astronomy instruction at the University of Bologna. He arrived in 1496 to study canon and civil law but pursued astronomical studies as well with Novara.

source: The Universities of the Italian Renaissance (google books) (https://books.google.de/books?id=5hTHP2I-A14C&pg=PA422&lpg=PA422&dq=bologna+renaissance+mathematics&source=bl&ots=KGJ64QIt43&sig=ACfU3U2wLwlfGExtKTt9C57jkKoWaNIgQQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZ7Zaz0uLmAhWqwqYKHfYMBBkQ6AEwDHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=bologna%20renaissance%20mathematics&f=false)


In the Renaissance Italy of the early 16th Century, Bologna University in particular was famed for its intense public mathematics competitions. It was in just such a competion that the unlikely figure of the young, self-taught Niccolò Fontana Tartaglia revealed to the world the formula for solving first one type, and later all types, of cubic equations (equations with terms including x3), an achievement hitherto considered impossible and which had stumped the best mathematicians of China, India and the Islamic world.

Building on Tartaglia’s work, another young Italian, Lodovico Ferrari, soon devised a similar method to solve quartic equations (equations with terms including x4) and both solutions were published by Gerolamo Cardano.

https://www.storyofmathematics.com/16th.html

[Zionbrion]

He also keeps talking about the start of the Sci fi world, we shall see...in just 10 days:bigsmile:
https://twitter.com/clif_high/status/1212396013064818688?s=21

[Delight]

Like Bill I have thought that since we each are born from parents (with parents etc.), they would surely have told us SOMETHING concerning the true history if so different. But there are no oral histories in my own family at all really so maybe???? I just don't know. However I think revisionists have an agenda that clouds their POV. The revisionists want to write history their way also.

What interests me is that rather than compression of everything into a 1000 years, the more likely issue is the advanced age of our underpinnings. Also, the "dark ages" applies IMO only to Europe really. There was sophistication and science and culture dating WAY BACK and known for thousands of years (millions???) until rediscovered. Examples abound

The latest I watched
Bm3Oixy4YMs

THE MAIN GRIPE FOR ME:
IMO but backed by evidence of stupidity, cupidity and willingness to hurt others despite its certain blowback
We are possibly on a trajectory to lose the future.......

[Ratszinger]

When I did my DNA trial years ago well ahead of the curve due to never knowing much of my paternal side of the family at all they went back seven generations and made offers continually to go back even further if I wished to pay for it. So suppose you went back ten or fifteen generations!? Isn't this proof by itself that Cliff is off? And for that matter so is the Fomenko.

[Kryztian]

Your claim about just "one person, or three people living simultaneously" is a myth. The simple fact that the University of Bologna was teaching astronomy and mathematics, which contradicts the assumption that during that time span only a few mathematicians were working in isolation.


Yes, that would make perfect sense on every other thread in Avalon but not this one. But we are talking about the world of Anatoly Formenko and his New Chronology where all historical texts before 1620 were rewritten by Benedictine and Jesuit monks. And while I've only read 20 of the 4,000 pages of his new chronology, I was just making my best effort to re-align history in the same manner which he might have done it.

However, if you want to debunk Formenko's history, 15th century math and science might be a good place to start. You would have to look at primary sources, at the physical manuscripts produced before 1620 and ascertain whether they were real or fraudulent. You would have to look about how dependent the work of one was on another. You would have to look at documents where they corresponded to each other or wrote about each other.

[Ernie Nemeth]

From what I have observed, history is relived over and over by each successive generation. Each make the same mistakes, gather information haphazardly, and stumble upon discoveries that accidentally lead to useful technology. The tech is then captured, exploited and sold at inflated prices. There is no goal and no guiding force of reason. It is just people living meaningless lives and wishing the unimportant were important - and pretending it is.

It is embarrassing how we live these lives, and how little useful anything comes from each generation. Just more mouths, more lives, more triviality.

And into this mix comes the next monkey wrench. Our history is shorter by 1054 years! I say it is still too long to claim significance for any one generation.

We are farmed, we are lab experiments, we are genetic dead ends - take your pick. We are a species without a future, why do we think we deserve a past?

Until we take hold of the reigns of our species' trajectory and consciously direct it we have no claim to a history or a future.

The history as espoused is our masters' invention to hide the obviousness of our plight: that we are not in control of our lives.

[greybeard]

As an aside Sanskrit written and spoken is many thousand years old --one of the most precise complex languages.
I suspect it came from an advanced civilization--pre ice age--certainly not invented by hunter gatherers.

I quite like statements made by spiritual "teachers" This one by Nasargadatta.
Any concept--notion you come up with he would say "Thats not it"

ACIM "Whenever you take up a position know you are identifying with an illusion"

We can come up will all kinds of clever theories but no matter how well presented and logical, this does not make it true.
Think this applies to this thread opening post and some others.
Chris

[Kryztian]

When I did my DNA trial years ago well ahead of the curve due to never knowing much of my paternal side of the family at all they went back seven generations and made offers continually to go back even further if I wished to pay for it. So suppose you went back ten or fifteen generations!? Isn't this proof by itself that Cliff is off?

That info by itself wouldn't be proof, but DNA could be used as proof if you had, with complete certainty, the DNA of a historical figure and could find it in you own DNA. For example, if you were the descendant of Thucydides, a Greek General, and we also had what was unquestionably his DNA and compared it to your DNA, and if the technology could tell us how many generation have elapsed (not sure if it currently can) we might be able to place that person historically. According to our consensual history, Thucydides died around 400 B.C., which would put him back about 120 generations. But by Formenko's history, Thucydides lived in the Eleventh or Twelfth Century A.D. (between 1001 AD and 1200 A.D.) which would only put him back about 45 generations.

However, I don't think remains from a graveyard can provide reliable data because who knows who is really buried there. A lot of us aren't even sure if the grave of John F. Kennedy in Arlington Cemetery really contains his remains, and that grave isn't just half a century old and has been under continuous surveillance.

[greybeard]

The BBC Panorama did a documentary on Yellow Stone Volcano--I posted it somewhere some time ago.
Anyway DNA in females mutates and they were able to calculate that due to greatly reduced gene pool (bottle necks)there has be quite a few mass near extinctions of the human race--we are no talking about a few thousand years but for hundreds of thousands years the human race has been here and not as envisaged by Darwin.
Edgar Cayce material worth a look --pre Atlantis.
Chris

[Kryztian]

And who is behind this conspiracy of history??? Well who else - - - THE JESUITS !!! :ROFL::laugh::ROFL:

Formenko refers to the conventional accepted version of chronology in History as "Scalagerian" after Joseph Justus Scaliger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Justus_Scaliger) (1540 – 1609) a French historian who spent the last 14 years of his life in Holland. Before Scaliger, the chronology of Ancient history was based on Greek and Roman history. Scaliger compared the events of these histories to Babylonian, Egyptian, Hebrew, and Persian history to show what events were happening concurrently. Because Scaliger was Protestant and his work challenged the status quo, his work was fiercely contested by Roman Catholics, and especially the Jesuits. But he was invited and eventually persuaded to work at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands, where the Reformation was in full swing and where he work was well received.


https://i.imgur.com/fLxXQyF.jpg

He died in 1609. Eighteen years later, in 1627, Denis Pétau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_P%C3%A9tau) (1583 – 1652) published Opus de doctrina temporum, a revised, abridged, improved version of Scaliger's work. Pétau was also known as Dionysius Petavius, and was a French Jesuit. The very order that ridiculed Scaliger's work had now co-opted and given very little credit to its originator.


https://i.imgur.com/X4JVy9f.jpg

[leavesoftrees]

This pdf from Danel’s website Conscious hugs covers a lot of topics including current miscaluctlaitons of historical dates and times. Daniel is a major advocate for Dewey Larson’s Reciprocal System
and it is on the basis of this theory he comes to his conclusions

Included in this paper,:
1) geochronological time lines,
2) Atlantean civilization,
3) how solar systems form and that we have stellar evolution backwards
4) there was never any planet that made the asteroid belt, disproving Velikovsky’s rogue planet theories and pointing out Sitchin may have had the wrong solar system.

5) In regard to radio carbon dating what scientists believe dates back millions of years, is in fact only 1,000s of years

6) Our current, 365-day calendar represents the way rotations and orbits occur now, but was this always the case? In order to be that static, rotation or orbit could not have changed over the millennia. The mass of the sun, Earth and moon would have to remain constant, despite all the meteoric dust they accumulate every day, and the internal structures would also have to remain constant—indicating that nothing much is going on inside the cores... not a very logical conclusion, given the observations. It makes far more sense that the lengths of the day, month and year have probably changed throughout our history.

7) mankind was created by “God” or “gods” around 3761 BC, which we are incorrectly dating as 50,000 BCE.


http://www.conscioushugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Geochronology-Phoenix-III-Daniel-1.pdf

[Bill Ryan]

This pdf from Danel’s website Conscious hugs covers a lot of topics including current miscaluctlaitons of historical dates and times. Daniel is a major advocate for Dewey Larson’s Reciprocal System
and it is on the basis of this theory he comes to his conclusions

Included in this paper,:
1) geochronological time lines,
2) Atlantean civilization,
3) how solar systems form and that we have stellar evolution backwards
4) there was never any planet that made the asteroid belt, disproving Velikovsky’s rogue planet theories and pointing out Sitchin may have had the wrong solar system.

5) In regard to radio carbon dating what scientists believe dates back millions of years, is in fact only 1,000s of years

6) Our current, 365-day calendar represents the way rotations and orbits occur now, but was this always the case? In order to be that static, rotation or orbit could not have changed over the millennia. The mass of the sun, Earth and moon would have to remain constant, despite all the meteoric dust they accumulate every day, and the internal structures would also have to remain constant—indicating that nothing much is going on inside the cores... not a very logical conclusion, given the observations. It makes far more sense that the lengths of the day, month and year have probably changed throughout our history.

7) mankind was created by “God” or “gods” around 3761 BC, which we are incorrectly dating as 50,000 BCE.

http://www.conscioushugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Geochronology-Phoenix-III-Daniel-1.pdf


Interesting trivia here: this is the same 'Daniel' as David Wilcock's insider contact who said he worked on the Montauk Project. No breach of confidentiality here, because


David never personally revealed his identity, while
It's actually pretty easy to figure out who he is (and also his real name).

[leavesoftrees]

Interesting trivia here: this is the same 'Daniel' as David Wilcock's insider contact who said he worked on the Montauk Project. No breach of confidentiality here, because


David never personally revealed his identity, while
It's actually pretty easy to figure out who he is (and also his real name).


I decided not to mention his real name, nor his many aliases - but as you say not hard to figure out. He has been seriously ill with cancer, but seems to have turned the corner over the last month

[Kryztian]

Getting back to Cliff High, here he is in 2011 discussing Formeneko, and yes, he is an enthusiastic proponent. A good summary of Formenko's work.

6Cfkx7n_CpI

[Kryztian]

Atilla Flink, a Hungarian linguist living in Australia, researched the aboriginal languages and found amazing connecting to the Magyar language, the proto language for Hungarian. His work has not been published, but Max Igan gives us a summary. 4vfN_kWc9n0

[Brigantia]

It’s interesting to see this thread, as I have recently become aware of this topic from a friend who is looking into the subject of Tartaria. Unfortunately that has become associated with mud flood and flat earth, which puts it into tin foil hat territory for many people. I found the basic premise of a mainstream false chronology very unsettling and challenging, but decided to look into Fomenko’s work and I started reading his first book a few days ago in the spirit of open mindedness.

Fomenko is correct to say that there is no provenance for the classics before the Renaissance; I studied Classics at uni and already knew that. The irony is, classical historians work from texts that are copies from that period, but when texts like the Kolbrin and Oer Linda Boek surface, they say that they are forgeries because they are copies. Works by authors such as Geoffrey of Monmouth and Nennius have an older provenance, but are now dismissed as unreliable.

He quotes various studies that state that carbon dating and dendrochronology dating methods cannot be relied on with certainty, which I had never heard before, and I will be checking his sources. (Fifty pages of the book catalogue his sources, which are meticulously referred to throughout his book.) Furthermore, he states that the carbon dating timeline was developed from ‘an artefact from a known date in history’ - but if the artefact date is wrong because the timeline is wrong, the method has a fundamental flaw. That’s one area that I want to check further.

I’m still on the fence regarding his theory, but I think it’s unfair to dismiss it out of hand without further investigation. Besides, when I’m sure that many in the Project Avalon community are aware of the social engineering of society in the past hundred years or so (CIA presence in the media for example, steering the way that people think), this could possibly be one of The Big Lies. I’m not therefore going to dismiss it without investigation, no matter how challenging it would be to learn that everything I was taught about history is a lie. There are so many history mysteries that academe dismisses as fantasy that it is at least worth a look.

[Brigantia]

I've just thought of something - the word Renaissance, that comes from the Italian word Rinascimento - that means 'rebirth'... an ending and a new beginning.

[palehorse]

That is a very serious interesting reading, I just downloaded the first volume of Anatoly T. Fomenko.
This subject is sensitive, since it can go easily from serious research to flat earth like stuffs, for now I have no opinion on the subject but I am pretty sure it worth the time to look into, I will start with Fomenko research and let's see where it goes.

I was just wondering how history will look like in 200 or 300 years from now, with all the three letters agencies manipulating information and knowledge as they do.

This is an amazing thread by the way.

[Brigantia]

"I was just wondering how history will look like in 200 or 300 years from now, with all the three letters agencies manipulating information and knowledge as they do."

Oh yes, I agree. My friend's son's GCSE modules were China, South Africa and USA - none on Britain and Europe. I saw a survey that found that a large proportion of young Brits didn't know that there was an English Civil War, one of the most significant events in our history.

Nothing will ever convince me that the earth is flat. I was privileged, back in the day when kids were taken up to see the cockpit, to see the curvature of the earth on a night flight and it was the most beautiful sight that I have ever seen. I'm told that flat earthers argue that there's a dome above it, but how would I have seen it if we were flying below it? (...and we were definitely above it from the perspective that I saw.) If we were flying above it, how did the plane fly through it on ascent and descent? Nah, not buying that nonsense!

[palehorse]

"I was just wondering how history will look like in 200 or 300 years from now, with all the three letters agencies manipulating information and knowledge as they do."

Oh yes, I agree. My friend's son's GCSE modules were China, South Africa and USA - none on Britain and Europe. I saw a survey that found that a large proportion of young Brits didn't know that there was an English Civil War, one of the most significant events in our history.

Nothing will ever convince me that the earth is flat. I was privileged, back in the day when kids were taken up to see the cockpit, to see the curvature of the earth on a night flight and it was the most beautiful sight that I have ever seen. I'm told that flat earthers argue that there's a dome above it, but how would I have seen it if we were flying below it? (...and we were definitely above it from the perspective that I saw.) If we were flying above it, how did the plane fly through it on ascent and descent? Nah, not buying that nonsense!

I do believe history had been changed/manipulated all along to fit the agendas/interests of whoever run the world, does it make any sense to burn books in the past to forbid knowledge? what are going to be in our time, burn the internet, people's computer? censorship them, control with chips? It's always been like that.

I remember reading a book called hollow earth by Carole Barrowman, right in the cover it says "Imagination can be a dangerous thing".
I was engaged for almost 3 years in sky diving, I can confirm what you said, there is a beautiful curvature up there and I am not talking about records made with Fisheye lens, the best sunrise I ever experienced in my life was from a window of a little Cessna. If the earth were flat, there should be many evidences about it and we got nothing that prove the theory, perhaps it is not a perfect absolute globe, but sure not flat line, and a f*** dome? I hit that dome plenty of times without even noticing that. :happythumbsup:

[Brigantia]

I'm currently reading Fomenko's first book, Chronology 1, in between work shifts and other mundane stuff.

I'd like to put the question out there - has anyone read chapter 2, 'Astronomical datings', pages 93 to 105 about parameter D? My background's arts and humanities, not so strong on science so I was a bit lost on the science of what he was saying here. If anyone has an opinion about whether they think he's correct, I'd be grateful to see what you think.

[Brigantia]

Following on from what I mentioned earlier about the lack of reliability of carbon-14 dating, I have just come across this Thunderbolts Project video about the factors that make it unreliable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut0KH3h7JVs&feature=youtu.be

[Savannah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7_axMkHjN4


Jay Weidner and Robert Phoenix talk about the coming Pluto/Saturn conjunction. They then examine the empire of Tartaria, a country that has been wiped out of history. They examine the demographics of the mid 1800's and the idea that the Tartarian Empire may have also existed in North America. Also they look at the work of Jon Levi at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5vX....

[Brigantia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7_axMkHjN4


Jay Weidner and Robert Phoenix talk about the coming Pluto/Saturn conjunction. They then examine the empire of Tartaria, a country that has been wiped out of history. They examine the demographics of the mid 1800's and the idea that the Tartarian Empire may have also existed in North America. Also they look at the work of Jon Levi at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5vX....

That was a very interesting vid by Jay and Robert, I was still on the fence about Tartaria at that point but looking into early San Francisco a bit more, I now think they're right. What they say about all the kids being packed onto trains and sent out west is very chilling... Why is Tartaria shown as a vast country on old maps if it's all a hoax? I've double-checked that from maps on mainstream sources and yes, Tartaria is always there. Jon Levi's work is also very good, I loved his vid on Mount Rushmore.

I've also visited many lovely cathedrals in Britain, France and Italy and it's always said that it's a mystery how they were able to build them with their 'primitive' methods. That's an argument being put forward for not restoring Notre Dame in Paris to its original state after last year's fire.

[ThePythonicCow]

.
Sarah Westall interviewed historians and researchers James Elder and Scott Juergens on Anatoly Fomenko's theory of the "New Chronology" a few days ago, mid October 2021.

I found it to be a good introduction to Fomenko's history.


Fraudulent History: Tartarian Empire, Fabricated Middle Ages, Compressed Timelines And More! (1of2) (https://sarahwestall.com/fraudulent-history-tartarian-empire-fabricated-middle-ages-compressed-timelines-and-more/)
Fraudulent History: Past Reset, Tartarian Empire, Fake Middle Ages, Compressed Timelines (2of2) (https://sarahwestall.com/fraudulent-history-past-reset-tartarian-empire-fake-middle-ages-compressed-timelines-2of2/)


I found myself wondering, after listening to Sarah Westall's interview, whether my supposition that the world has been dominated by the Babylonian/Phoenician/Venetian/Vatican/... "tribe" for the last 6,000 years might be very incorrect. Perhaps that tribe only came to dominance, first in Europe and then expanding its dominance over much of the world, only over the last 500 or so years, rewriting the great Tartarian Empire out of the history books, especially early in their European rise, and pushing other power centers back in ancient history.

Also, here is an OCR (Optical Character Recognition) English translation, with searchable text, of Anatoly Fomenko's 4 volume "History - Fiction or Science" work ... each volume is some 700 to 900+ pages long. (I've not read it yet.)


Anatoly Fomenko Books (archive.org) (https://archive.org/details/AnatolyFomenkoBooks)

[Franny]

One of the things that caught my attention is the "mud flood" theory. I have seen a number of old photos and much older drawings of buildings flooded by several feet of mud. Then some 'after' photos of the same buildings with stairs going up to the second floor and steps going down to what was the street level first floor with windows below street level. When in certain cities in the US and in Europe I always wondered why buildings were built that way. I had never heard of mud floods and so thought it was a very odd way to build. The last few years I've seen many very interesting photos and drawings of buildings build over others. Rather interesting it was never a part of our so called history.

Now we know.

The orphan trains I had heard of on my own years ago, not in classes. However, they weren't all necessarily orphans. Many came from poverty, were sold by parents, were runaways, kidnapped or street kids.

[Zionbrion]

.
Sarah Westall interviewed historians and researchers James Elder and Scott Juergens on Anatoly Fomenko's theory of the "New Chronology" a few days ago, mid October 2021.

I found it to be a good introduction to Fomenko's history.


Fraudulent History: Tartarian Empire, Fabricated Middle Ages, Compressed Timelines And More! (1of2) (https://sarahwestall.com/fraudulent-history-tartarian-empire-fabricated-middle-ages-compressed-timelines-and-more/)
Fraudulent History: Past Reset, Tartarian Empire, Fake Middle Ages, Compressed Timelines (2of2) (https://sarahwestall.com/fraudulent-history-past-reset-tartarian-empire-fake-middle-ages-compressed-timelines-2of2/)


I found myself wondering, after listening to Sarah Westall's interview, whether my supposition that the world has been dominated by the Babylonian/Phoenician/Venetian/Vatican/... "tribe" for the last 6,000 years might be very incorrect. Perhaps that tribe only came to dominance, first in Europe and then expanding its dominance over much of the world, only over the last 500 or so years, rewriting the great Tartarian Empire out of the history books, especially early in their European rise, and pushing other power centers back in ancient history.

Also, here is an OCR (Optical Character Recognition) English translation, with searchable text, of Anatoly Fomenko's 4 volume "History - Fiction or Science" work ... each volume is some 700 to 900+ pages long. (I've not read it yet.)


Anatoly Fomenko Books (archive.org) (https://archive.org/details/AnatolyFomenkoBooks)

Hi Paul, have you ever looked into the worlds fairs of the 1800’s? A few researches paint an interesting picture that they may have been used as a tool for rewriting history. I started this thread on it, never got any traction though.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?116168-The-curious-case-of-World-Fairs&p=1449521&viewfull=1#post1449521

[ThePythonicCow]

Hi Paul, have you ever looked into the worlds fairs of the 1800’s?
I've not looked there.