You Are The Illuminati

[Mike]

I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history and I had a little epiphany...

The suggestion was, when reading about, say, Nazi Germany, to view yourself as one of the perpetrators, and not as some hero. Most of us would like to believe we'd have been Oscar Schindler, but that's nonsense. 99% of us would have either been Nazis or we would have been complicit with the whole movement. We would have went along with it all, in other words, just like the German citizens did.

And the only way to prevent that from happening again is to realize that you are the Nazis. And only when you admit to yourself that you're just as capable of doing what the Nazis did - and you might even enjoy it! - can you then take the appropriate steps to ensure that doesn't happen again.

Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.

One who is willing to accept these truths is often mistaken for a bad guy. One who is unwilling to accept these truths is often mistaken for a nice guy. These are things we superficially perceive. But on a deeper level we know it's not true. It's why women are always more attracted to the "bad boy", even as they profess to genuinely want a "nice guy". It's because on a deeper level they know that the so called bad boy actually has more integrity than the so called nice guy; he has acknowledged his potential for danger and destruction with courage, and in doing so has opened up the possibility of taming it all. The "nice guy" can't even make the initial acknowledgement, and in response embraces the role of the beta male, politically correct, rom-com softy...because in the absence of courage it's the only game left for him to play.

At the moment we have a scourge of "nice guys" (and "nice girls") who aren't seeing clearly. Their deficiencies won't allow them to see that they are the illuminatti. They cloak their lack of courage and bravery in a veil of righteousness, which has manifested itself as this postmodern, PC culture we see today. They've manufactured a scenario in which noble males are "toxic", and weak males are noble. It's an elaborate scheme used to flip logic and morality on it's head.

You are the illuminatti. Make no mistake. Just like the Nazis and their complicit citizenship, the members of the generational ruling families existing today are only doing what 99% of all of you would be doing if you had the power and wealth they did. We have no idea what it's like to have all that power.It always makes me chuckle when some Joe Schmo makes some moral judgement about a celebrity who has been caught cheating on his wife...as if he would have resisted temptation had he been presented with the same opportunities. It's that whole bit, only on a much larger scale.

I think it's important for us to express our indignation with all this in mind.

[AutumnW]

Had this conversation with a few people a way back when. Asked them if they could kill someone and this one woman said she couldn't under any circumstances. She was shocked when I told her I had run the scenario through my mind a few times and knew I could do it very easily under the right conditions -- and I am sure she could too.

I appreciate people who wrestle with those parts of themselves they feel are wild or rough or not socially acceptable. Makes them real.

As far as the Nazi thing goes, we can assume we would be Nazis back in the day and we would behave as they did. I totally agree. I hope that some of us have inoculated ourselves from the inevitability of acting on natural violent impulses, in the future by reflecting on history. And as you have described very well, we don't have to go all out and identify with Nazis but we should be able to imagine being them.

And yes, most men get lack of opportunity and or cowardice confused with being on high moral ground.

[Praxis]

I do not support the continued occupation of Afghanistan.

I did not vote for Trump.

I do not support the continued occupation of Iraq.

I did not vote for Obama.

I do not support Military Tribunals, which we have all seemed to have forgotten about.

I do not support Guantanamo Bay being open.

I do not support the American Military.

I do not support the Police. Abolish the police. Fascist in Blue

I do not support the War on Drugs.

I am against Imperalism.

I could keep listing things.

I actively voice this dissent.

I am not a Nazi.

If you do not actively voice your dissent on these things, then why?

If continue to support presidents that do not change this course, you are an asshole.

How about you not lump all of us together Mike.

I do actively oppose this children in cages ****.

If you support trump. You support destroying families by separating them and holding children in cages.

[Wind]

That's good if I'm part of the Illuminatti instead of the Illuminati. ;)

People never really know what they're truly capable of until they actually forced to in extreme situations.

Humans have tremendous potential for good and evil. May we all hope that we can keep the integrity (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?69588-Surfing-with-Wind&p=1336289&viewfull=1#post1336289) of our soul intact when the time comes.

[Pam]

I have been considering these topics for quite awhile. In our culture we give passes to certain attributes. If someone is considered "nice" they get a lot of breaks, they avoid suspicion and are generally included. In the work setting I have always been considered really nice. One of the reasons is that I don't want anything to do with conflict. I avoid it at all costs. It occurred to me that this trait is not so much about being nice but about my discomfort and poor skills in dealing with conflict. I could give similar examples about other nice traits. In many cases my nice is really about a lack of coping skills and probably deficient self respect.

Being able to look at the Nazis and German citizens and judge them is about righteous indignation. "I would never do that". I doubt many could withstand the influence to cooperate with something they believe is wrong if the right fear tactics were used. We are all weak to something. I think the strong bond a parent has for children might be one of the few things that could allow for true courage.

Another thing, never forget the power of programming and indoctrination. What appears so evil now wouldn't have appeared that bad to those directly participating.Denial and rationalization are very powerful influences. Those that are quickest to scream ''Nazi" at others are sitting back passively as their government enters into endless regime change wars for the sake of corporate interest( in the US). The misery and death of untold innocents never even acknowledged. The total inability of people to see this at some level is really, really scary.

[Mike]

I do not support the continued occupation of Afghanistan.

I did not vote for Trump.

I do not support the continued occupation of Iraq.

I did not vote for Obama.

I do not support Military Tribunals, which we have all seemed to have forgotten about.

I do not support Guantanamo Bay being open.

I do not support the American Military.

I do not support the Police. Abolish the police. Fascist in Blue

I do not support the War on Drugs.

I am against Imperalism.

I could keep listing things.

I actively voice this dissent.

I am not a Nazi.

If you do not actively voice your dissent on these things, then why?

If continue to support presidents that do not change this course, you are an asshole.

How about you not lump all of us together Mike.

I do actively oppose this children in cages ****.

If you support trump. You support destroying families by separating them and holding children in cages.



supporting Trump??

Praxis, take a break maybe.

[Mike]

Had this conversation with a few people a way back when. Asked them if they could kill someone and this one woman said she couldn't under any circumstances. She was shocked when I told her I had run the scenario through my mind a few times and knew I could do it very easily under the right conditions -- and I am sure she could too.

I appreciate people who wrestle with those parts of themselves they feel are wild or rough or not socially acceptable. Makes them real.

As far as the Nazi thing goes, we can assume we would be Nazis back in the day and we would behave as they did. I totally agree. I hope that some of us have inoculated ourselves from the inevitability of acting on natural violent impulses, in the future by reflecting on history. And as you have described very well, we don't have to go all out and identify with Nazis but we should be able to imagine being them.

And yes, most men get lack of opportunity and or cowardice confused with being on high moral ground.



:thumbsup:

yeah I think we're all closet monsters. your friend sounds like a naive one..which ironically makes her one of the most dangerous. but of course i totally get why she'd react like that. no judgements from me - i was reacting sort of similarly not too long ago before i began studying these concepts.

there's a book out there called 'ordinary men', and it's about nazi policemen who were patrolling wartime poland during world war 2. over time, their responsibilities grew more and more gruesome. their superior told them they could return to germany if they didnt have the stomach to continue to do these things, but most stayed because they felt a sense of obligation to their fellow officers - if they left, their fellow officers would be forced to do it all. that was the mentality.

these were very ordinary men, as the title suggests, but they become the type of men who could take pregnant women out into frozen fields and execute them. they became physically sick at the things they were asked to do; they wept as they were doing them. but they did them nonetheless.

it's a terrible book to read, but the perfect example of what we're talking about here

[Mike]

peterpam, great post there. i'm actually pretty similar. i'm mostly an agreeable person! much of this stuff i'm suggesting - like shadowwork - are things i know i need to improve upon myself. i'm glad you had that realization and shared it here.

Nietzche has a great quote that's pretty relevant here, and it runs along the lines of what you wrote about so well there: "morality is cowardice". and what he means of course is that most of the stuff that is being passed off as morality is really cowardice in a costume. it's a fear to do what most would like to do, all cloaked in sanctimony. morality is something we hide behind to mask our lack of courage, basically.

i think it's partially why we all secretly admire the archetypal bad guy in the movies

[Mike]

That's good if I'm part of the Illuminatti instead of the Illuminati. ;)

People never really know what they're truly capable of until they actually forced to in extreme situations.

Humans have tremendous potential for good and evil. May we all hope that we can keep the integrity (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?69588-Surfing-with-Wind&p=1336289&viewfull=1#post1336289) of our soul intact when the time comes.




as usual, you are the calm voice of reason my friend.

that bit there about not knowing who we truly are until forced into extreme situations, that's crucial. that's precisely why i think it's so important to willingly expose ourselves to malevolence from time to time. Autumn used the perfect word "inoculate"..and that's what this does. it inoculates and prepares us for the inevitable arrival of the horrific.

[Satori]

This thread makes me recall an event I experienced.

I was an infantry soldier (MOS 11Bravo) assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division during the Vietnam [police action]. On May 1, 1971 many units of the 82nd, including the company to which I was assigned, were deployed to Washington DC to "combat" anti-war protests that were taking place across the US of A, including and especially in DC.

We were there about 3 days presenting a military presence and violating Posse Comitatus by acting as a domestic police force. We carried weapons but had no ammunition in them. On the second or third day, our company commander, Cpt. Barr (about 5' 4" with a real Napoleon Complex), gave an order to issue live ammunition to everyone in our company. I was a squad leader at that time. Upon being given the order, I went to my platoon leader and other squad leaders to protest and to ask if the order was legitimate. I other words, what authority did Barr have to give the order to issue live ammunition and why was he doing that.

Long story short, a few of us located a Major and asked about the order. He was shocked to learn that Barr had done that. The Major came to our company, confronted Barr and put an end to the order. Barr wound up facing disciplinary action--which to my knowledge not much happened to him.

My point is, there was no way I would have put live ammo in my weapon (an M60 machine gun) and if I did I would not have shot anybody. That was also the attitude of most of the soldiers in my company. There were some exceptions. The exceptions were to be found among some, but not all, of the soldiers who had spent a tour or two in Nam in combat, or fire fights as they became known. They had mental issues most of us did not.

I know for a fact there were then, and I am sure now, people who will commit murder in the name of their country. I also know for a fact there are many who will not. They are not cowards. In my book, it is those who will kill innocent non-combatants who are the evil cowards

I will not hesitate to defend myself or others, but I will not under any circumstances kill for the sake and thrill of killing, or as some nebulous call to duty. Anyone who expects me to is my enemy.

I am not alone in this. Many military studies show that during combat many soldiers do not even attempt to hit the enemy when firing. Rather, they point their weapons down, up, around and over the enemy. That is a "problem" the military has struggled with.

One goal of the military is to overcome the hesitancy to kill another human. Sadly, they have done a masterful job of that in the past few decades.

Edit: I make this edit to make clear, as I have in other posts, that I was drafted in 1970. I did not volunteer for the Army. I spent the first 16 years of my life as an "Air Force brat" and being in the Army at the age of 19-20 was not a culture shock for me.

[Praxis]

supporting Trump??

Praxis, take a break maybe.

You made a thread where you called us, the audience reading, illuminati and essentially that we are just like the people of all fascist/authoritarian regimes that passively allow the changes to happen.

I took issue with your accusation. I get that by being a citizen of the US I am part of the problem as my working here and being here supports and funds the US imperial apparatus.
Why do you think I am so vocal about nit picky about politics?

We are all guilty as you say, but I was trying to call out that maybe some of us on here are actively working at positive change.

Please explain further why I should take a break? I rarely post as it is. Perhaps you would like me to stop entirely?


Want to know more about Satori's story?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division#Urban_riots_in_1967%E2%80%9368

[Karen (Geophyz)]

I lost 2 family members in the 9/11 attack. My brother did 4 tours in Iraq. He told me stories that still give me nightmares. Stories that shocked me down to my soul. He will never be the same. I will never be the same.

Could I kill someone? If they were threatening my family, my country, me....without hesitation. I own guns and I am well trained in how to use them and given the opportunity would I take out anyone who had something to do with the planning and execution of 9/11. Without hesitation.

I consider this a black spot in my heart and it hurts me that I can admit I would do it, but I would. Does that make me Illuminati? I guess I don't know the answer to that. One of the reasons I moved so far out in the middle of nowhere was to escape the darkness and malevolence. But I know I cannot escape it, it is still there. I deal with it by being nice to everyone I meet, trying to do simple acts of kindness. I try to keep kindness in my heart. I try to help the earth heal from the poison we have dumped onto her. But the darkness is always there lurking.....

[The Moss Trooper]

You Are The Illuminati !

No I'm not.............

.............. I'm a very naughty boy!

[Dennis Leahy]

Interesting observation of the reality that the vast majority of people would indeed commit atrocities or at least inflict (non-defensive) violence against other human beings if told to do so. It does make me wonder how much of it is actually innate (Mike's point) and how much of it shows the power of programming. In other words, would it hold up statistically in a culture where violence against other humans was not the norm and not inculcated into the society (say, the Inuit for a possible example.) I do currently live in a country that actively programs violence against others as a solution to issues, and one in which the current, and previous, and next previous presidents and congresspersons not only accepted the atrocity of torturing other humans, but of actually codifying it into federal law and active policy. That this is a non-issue for most US citizens is very telling.

I don't know how well you (dear reader) know yourself and have had your integrity tested, but I will say that for myself, there was a time in my youth (before about age 16) when I was probably as vulnerable to the programming as anyone. Interestingly, though, I have a very hard time visualizing myself ever acquiescing to torture, though I could have killed. At the age of 17, I began reading Zen Buddhist literature, and began a spiritual transformation journey. I got a mail-order certificate that said I was a reverend in the Universal Life Church, and presented the credentials to the draft board (the Vietnam war was raging, and I was about to be drafted into the army.) I received a "D-3", "student of divinity" classification, while all of my male high school friends got the "1-A" (or was it "1-H"?) classification: prime meat. If I was going to be force conscripted into the army and shipped off to Vietnam, it was going to be with a copy of the Tao te Ching in my hands, not a rifle. (My draft lottery number was "4", but the Nixon administration - or more accurately, whoever behind the curtain controlled the Nixon administration - ended the draft just before I would have been conscripted.)

When I was 20 years old, I was for a short stint the caretaker/guard of the largest gold mine and processing mill in a 4-state area, the Glory Hole gold mine and mill just above Central City, Colorado. I had a loaded rifle, and was tasked primarily with chasing away the thieves/souvenir hunters that would steal property from the (then inactive) gold milling facility. I never actually had to brandish the rifle - just showing myself as present a few times when cars stopped and (suspected) souvenir hunters got out was enough to get them to go back into their cars and leave. Then, one day a truck pulled up and a man got out and was walking toward the mill, and my then girlfriend's Afghan hound dog confronted the guy, barking up a storm and running around him. He began kicking the dog. I got the rifle and aimed it at him, ordering him to stop. This was the only time in my life I have ever aimed a gun at a human. He did stop kicking the dog, said he was going to get the sheriff, got into his truck and left.

I was so full of adrenaline that I have to wonder if I could have, or would have, pulled the trigger if he had not stopped kicking the dog (who was like a family member to my girlfriend.) The emotional aftermath was a lot of self-examination. The sheriff did come and told me not to ever aim a gun at anyone even if they were trespassing or stealing, but that was the only official rebuke. My own mind provided much more than that. In fact, sometime in the ensuing weeks, I had a far too vivid dream in which I did kill someone, and stashed their body in one of the mine shafts. The dream was so real that it felt like an experience, not a dream. The dream haunted me for weeks - maybe months. Was it real or a dream? I could visualize the mine shaft (even though, in reality, I had never been in a mine shaft at the Glory Hole mine - I have been in other mine shafts so I know what it looks like and feels like to be in one.) Could I, a Zen Buddhist monk wannabee, someone who had already started the self-deprogramming process and had already dedicated myself to peace, have killed someone?

Torture is a different realm than the instantaneous pulling of a trigger. Torture would require a process over time rather than an instantaneous decision. I could never acquiesce to torture, and I'm certain I would have been the outlier in the Millgram Experiment who would have refused to participate in torture. I also see non-instantaneous murder (like when a soldier is ordered to round some people up and take them out into a field or mass grave and shoot them, a longer process that would give time to actually mentally process what was going on) as a different realm. I'm incapable of that, but believe that Mike's supposition that almost everyone would indeed do as they were ordered to do as a reality.

[Mike]

supporting Trump??

Praxis, take a break maybe.

You made a thread where you called us, the audience reading, illuminati and essentially that we are just like the people of all fascist/authoritarian regimes that passively allow the changes to happen.

I took issue with your accusation. I get that by being a citizen of the US I am part of the problem as my working here and being here supports and funds the US imperial apparatus.
Why do you think I am so vocal about nit picky about politics?

We are all guilty as you say, but I was trying to call out that maybe some of us on here are actively working at positive change.

Please explain further why I should take a break? I rarely post as it is. Perhaps you would like me to stop entirely?


Want to know more about Satori's story?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division#Urban_riots_in_1967%E2%80%9368



I'm saying there is a potential for you to be a Nazi or Illuminatti. I'm saying that the same mechanism that drove their horrific acts exists within all of us. And I'm talking about me too. I'm not lecturing an audience from a pulpit. If anything I'm lecturing myself. You share what you need to learn most, right?

I'm also saying that if you can acknowledge that you're just as capable of these horrors as anyone else , you significantly lessen the chance of that happening. Some people call that "shadow work". At the moment, we have a culture built around enabling weakness and justifying failure. It's all cloaked in self righteous pc language, but it's really just a mirage for moral weakness and laziness. Its a refusal to do shadow work. When you create an entire generation of people like this, you are greatly enhancing the chances of something like Nazi Germany, or (fill in the horrific act here) happening all over again.

And then I compared all that to the same one dimensional way in which we view the so called illuminatti

I suggested you take a break because this is the second time in as many days that you have very dramatically misinterpreted me.

But that's all up to you of course

[TomKat]

Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.

Of course, but what's the 2nd step?

[Mike]

Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.

Of course, but what's the 2nd step?



The second step is properly cultivating virtue. And once you have properly cultivated virtue, you are now morally armed to end as much needless suffering in the world as possible, (and morally armed to speak up loudly when something is very wrong..even if it means drawing the wrath of the mob)

I don't think you can properly cultivate virtue until you are aware of how horrific you can really be. And that's the shadow work I've referenced several times in this thread.

It's why "nice" or dogmatically PC oriented people are often the most dangerous people (no, not all nice people Praxis!:)) Their moral weakness makes them untrustworthy...and more likely to stab you in the back when youre not looking

I had an ex girlfriend who would often make a very dramatic show of her concern for mankind and her disdain for injustice. But if you'd told her she could feed 10 families for a week if she just worked one shift at Wal-Mart, she wouldn't do it.

Although she made a big show of her alleged compassion, her actual morality was moored shallowly. She was firmly entrenched in sjw culture, which is really another way of saying she was too frightened to face her shadow, and as a result was too morally weak to ever cultivate authentic virtue, and by extension too weak to truly help anyone. She lived in Seattle, by the way, which is no coincidence.

So that's an example there of what I'm saying

[shaberon]

I would question why Nazi keeps coming up as a bad example.

According to Gen. George Patton:

"Looks like we fought on the wrong side".

He got run over for saying that. Twice.

I am also not sure why Illuminati comes up as a bad example. They were disbanded, and no one cared about them any more, except for op-ed writers further down the road. What governments were actually terrified of was Thomas Paine.

But the underlying point of the post, how scrupulous you would be in a "what if" scenario, well, I am pretty sure I am not exactly surrounded by White Knights.

"Nice" smells British, or, what we would call two-faced. In that case, I am not very nice at all. My adversaries have been unable to defeat me by reason; it usually comes down to force, or, authority, since none of them have shot me, yet. Like Dennis, my last fight was over a dog, with the enemy being two pit bulls--no gun involved. Around that time, my girlfriend was attacked by a human in her car; she shot him; and the sherriff said she should have killed him. This ca. 30 year old guy has a rap sheet longer than most 60 year old career criminals, didn't show to court, got a $75k unsecured bond, and still in the two or three years we have not seen justice served by repairing our windshield. So, that much is true...there is someone I would have little difficulty committing unspeakable acts upon. I don't always agree with the opinion of law enforcement, but, on this one, they said what they said.

[Satori]

For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.

[TomKat]

For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.

And there is the principle that if you banish your own shadow (aka the "not-I") you energetically influence people around you to act it out. Kind of puts a new slant on marriage and child rearing, eh? :-)

[Mac]

For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.

And there is the principle that if you banish your own shadow ("not-I)" you energetically influence people around you to act it out.

" ( not -I ) " ..me neither 8) could you expand a bit on what you mean .. " you energetically influence people around you to act it out " by this. Genuinely interested never heard this before. No worries if a chore just intrigued me. Cheers

[AutumnW]

The shadow should be understood, (not suppressed and dismissed) to prevent its unbridled expression. One of the many reasons people have a nervous reaction to some comedians is because they provide a counter balance to the forces of suppression and help to reveal what their audience actually IS. And they do it quickly, like ripping off a bandaid.

TomKat makes an interesting point. Have you ever had the irresistable urge to say something totally f'g inappropriate in a social setting full of people who are just super super nice, but not necessarily kind? I had a sjw friend years ago who thought she was the most morally superior person, radical feminist. When I was with her, I found myself behaving in slightly outrageous ways, like I had strong desire to shake her up somehow.

Trickster Spirits are beings of both chaos and wisdom: There are some things that you can only learn from these beings, and yet to learn from them takes tremendous risk. However, it is often in our times of darkness, strife, and chaos that we have our revelations, and realize important things about ourselves. It is through trial that we evolve, and through constant questioning that we learn. The Sacred Clowns and Tricksters of various cultures embody that chaotic path to wisdom.

[Mac]

I read another poster Mike I think, write he has to suppress his wise arse voice. That's probably all of us, but I think sometimes among family and friends it's good to let it up and out and flowing.
It's not who you are but what comes out sometimes is useful to know. Like Mike I don't indulge much as I've gotten older as you don't hang on to things out of your control as much as you do in your youth.
Most Comedians have a rough ride because of how they have to view life to extract material, but I agree they play an important role. Wouldn't fancy it myself but glad they exist. Agree best understanding the shadow rather than trying to kill it, imo it dissipates greatly once examined but lurks.

[Mike]

Reverend Leahy:) ..as I was reading everything you wrote in your excellent post, I couldn't help but think of the book, The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solshenitsyn.

I bet you're familiar with it, but for those that aren't, the book is about the author's struggles first as a soldier on the Russian front in world war 2, and then later as a political prisoner in the forced labor camps (the gulags).

I won't pretend to have read it all. I'm about halfway thru the abridged version, which is almost 500 pages, but with ultra tiny print..so even that's a little misleading.

Anyway, the conditions in the camps were absolutely brutal, as you can imagine. Forced confessions in mini kangaroo courts were the order of the day. Inside the prison camp it was a kind of kill or be killed environment. Morality and virtue were largely sacrificed in the face of cold hard survival.

But A.S. noticed that there were some prisoners who, despite the consequences, refused to compromise their values. They would not sign forced confessions. They would not take advantage of weaker prisoners to make their lives easier.

At first this made A.S. feel ashamed. Their virtue only highlighted his moral weakness. But then it inspired him to analyze his life with a fine toothed comb to find out where he might have been responsible for his current predicament. He had Hitler and Stalin to blame, and he would have been perfectly justified living his life wallowing in that type of bitterness, but instead he ultimately took personal responsibility for all of it...and it completely changed his life.

The Stalin era, like the Hitler era, was a lesson in good men and women not speaking up. When that happens a moral rot sets in, and the sky is the limit as far as malevolence goes after that. He didn't speak up when the rot was setting in; so his reflective journey starts there and then he realizes more and more things he could have done that may have prevented his current predicament. He also realizes that he and his captors are much more similar than he would have liked to believe. He realizes that under certain circumstances almost anyone can be a monster, and the only thing separating a monster from a virtuous man is first the acknowledgement of this truth, and second a cultivation of virtue in the face of it all.

History suggests that in these types of trying circumstances, we would not have been good men. But it's not impossible! There were good men in the face of the absolute worst of circumstances in Stalinist Russia, so there is hope. Those good men are like needles in a haystack. But I truly believe you are one of those extremely rare, good men. It's why I've always looked up to you so much

I'd love to gift you that book if you're interested! Please pm me your info if you are

[Mike]

The shadow should be understood, (not suppressed and dismissed) to prevent its unbridled expression. One of the many reasons people have a nervous reaction to some comedians is because they provide a counter balance to the forces of suppression and help to reveal what their audience actually IS. And they do it quickly, like ripping off a bandaid.

TomKat makes an interesting point. Have you ever had the irresistable urge to say something totally f'g inappropriate in a social setting full of people who are just super super nice, but not necessarily kind? I had a sjw friend years ago who thought she was the most morally superior person, radical feminist. When I was with her, I found myself behaving in slightly outrageous ways, like I had strong desire to shake her up somehow.

Trickster Spirits are beings of both chaos and wisdom: There are some things that you can only learn from these beings, and yet to learn from them takes tremendous risk. However, it is often in our times of darkness, strife, and chaos that we have our revelations, and realize important things about ourselves. It is through trial that we evolve, and through constant questioning that we learn. The Sacred Clowns and Tricksters of various cultures embody that chaotic path to wisdom.



a week ago i was having a small debate/argument with a close friend. he was arguing that the joker in the chris nolan movies was a "Nietzsche'ian hero" because of the lesson in hypocrisy he was trying to reveal to the citizens of gotham (who he mostly regarded as useless). i was arguing that the lesson came at the cost of hundreds of lives, so it was 99.9% insane..which is pretty obvious when you see the movies i think.

some tricksters trick for the sadistic thrill of it. some trick in an actual attempt to provide a valuable lesson for people. those are the extremes. most tricksters fall somewhere on the spectrum in between.

i do have a very strong trickster predilection. this often carries negative connotations but is not necessarily a bad thing. Autumn's quote sums it all up really beautifully.

the authentic trickster only provides what's necessary. sometimes he/she is required to be "bad" for the sake of the good. at other times he/she is required to be kind, caring, clever, manipulative, acerbic, soothing, coddling, challenging, annoying, wise, cowardly, brave.....and so on and so forth.

Autumn's example of wanting to act outlandishly in the presence of her sanctimonious sjw warrior friend is the perfect example of that. to someone who didn't know any better it may have just seemed obnoxious, but to a trickster type it is only seen as what is required in the moment.

full disclosure: i know that some of the stuff in this thread is triggering, and my inner trickster does get a little sadistic thrill out of that. i won't apologize for it. i have to feed him now and again. it's part of the trickster faustian pact:) i give him a little sadistic thrill, and he gives me instructions on how to proceed. it's like that. in fairness, I'm also thrilled when someone seems to have gained or learned in some way from this sh!t. so, my inner trickster does have some virtuous redemption. balance is the name of the game. it keeps jack from being a dull boy

[Mike]

For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.



no you got it brother. thats pretty much it.

and thank you for that excellent post earlier. i really enjoyed reading it, but i've been at work all day and evening and haven't had the chance to acknowledge it till now

it actually illustrates perfectly something i was trying to say, only you said it better. and the gist of it is, the best of us are the ones who know what kind of nasty sh!t we're capable of, but instead choose not to do those things.

but if you don't even acknowledge that you're a monster, you can't choose not to be one. in other words, the nobility is in the choice to "do the right thing" as we often say.

those that don't even acknowledge that they could do anything evil aren't giving themselves the opportunity to be noble:

"..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

~ Jordan Peterson

[Chester]

There was a moment... about 4 years ago where I realized this about myself. It was at that time, I re-branded the organization as...

The Illumed and Nutty.

[Mac]

"..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

~ Jordan Peterson " "
........

Hi Mike noticed you're quite an admirer of his work. Me too especially his work in the classrooms and most of (not all) what he stood for on the public stage, brave Man. His daughter let slip Mom was the real power in the family, Mom should write a book 8) . I don't know enough about him to endorse him fully but you have to admire his efforts and intelligence whether you agree or not. Hope he recovers quickly, deffo a lively spark when on form. If only all teachers could spark inquiry like he can when he's firing right. His daughter has great potential too imo. GL to them as a family.

[Jayke]

One of my favourite illuminatus was the 17th century, ‘last of the renaissance men’ Robert Fludd. He had some interesting perspectives on virtue and what it means to be a member of ‘the noble race’, those who have conquered crass morality and stepped into the flow of the divine (divine meaning undivided, holy, integrated at all levels of self)...


https://www.alchemywebsite.com/fludd1.html


The 'Apologia' is in three parts...The different chapters have quotations or mottoes taken from the 'Confessio.' The contents of the work are the germs of Fludd's subsequent writings. These develop his purpose in the 'Apologia' to be 'to protect the purity and innocence of the society and to wipe off the spots of shame smeared over the Brethren, as with a stream of pure wisdom.'...

...at page 195, the author [Fludd] addresses the Brethren of the Rosy Cross. He refers to their promise to bring happiness to those who have been reduced to misery by the fall of Adam. He honours them because they serve Christ with pure and upright hearts. He asks pardon of the Brotherhood if, through his ignorance, he has made any error or mistake in his 'Apologia.' He adds, 'he wished nothing more or better than to be only the lowest associate in your order, that he might satisfy the inquisitive ears of men by a trustworthy spreading of your renown.' He then states shortly who he is. 'I am,' he says, 'of a distinguished noble race. My spouse is called 'desire of wisdom'; my children are the fruits produced by it...I have experienced and fortunately overcome the stormy sea, the steep mountains, the slippery vallies, ignorance on land, and the coarseness of the towns; the haughtiness and pride of the citizens, avarice, faithlessness, ignorance, foulness, almost all human inconveniences...I have found that almost everywhere vanity rules and triumphs. All seems to be self-assertive misery and vanity itself.’He then bids the brethren farewell, in all kindness and affection." (Craven, 42-45)

Robert Fludd's intense religious devotion and mystic quest caused him to be perpetually concerned with the creation myth as comprehended by man. In 1617, he published two works dealing with the subject.

The first was Tractatus Theologo-Philosophicus. It concerns Life, Death and Resurrection and is essentially a mystical and alchemical account of creation combined with his Mosaical philosophy. As a retelling of Genesis, it describes creation, the garden, Adam and the Fall. It begins with the premise that God, the Word and Light are the origin of the universal life, and the Devil, the origin of death. As an alchemical interpretation, it deals with the separations as a chemical process, or "'high Chymicall virtue' that effected 'the separation of one region from another'...Quite simply, 'earth is dense water, and water is dense air,...air is nothing else than dense and crass fire.'" (Debus, 12-13)

Divine Light remains a central theme throughout Fludd's writings and represents the active principle behind creation. He considered Adam to be the divine animal, his mind a palace of light and a perfect work of God. The resurrection represents the return to this state of being, before the Fall.

This work did not receive a great deal of attention or debate. However, its importance to us is that it is dedicated to the Brotherhood of the Rose Cross. In this work, Fludd maintains, says Craven, that "Those who were really sons of God were the light in the Word. Chief among these are the brethren of the Rosy Cross. They have all virtues. Their light is greater than the rising sun. We have, he exclaims 'Leonem fortissimum solem devorantem.' They possess the true alchemy." (Craven, 59)

An important point in the discussion of virtue is that the original Greek word for virtue “Arete” didn’t just mean moral virtue, but also “excellence of any kind”, similar to the notion of Kung fu in the Taoist system, the fulfilment of ones purpose or potential.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete


Arete (Greek: ἀρετή), in its basic sense, means "excellence of any kind".[1] The term may also mean "moral virtue".[1] In its earliest appearance in Greek, this notion of excellence was ultimately bound up with the notion of the fulfillment of purpose or function: the act of living up to one's full potential.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_(term)


In general, kung fu/kungfu (/ˌkʌŋˈfuː/ (About this soundlisten) or /ˌkʊŋˈfuː/; 功夫, Pinyin: gōngfu) refers to the Chinese martial arts, also called wushu and quanfa. In China, it refers to any study, learning, or practice that requires patience, energy, and time to complete. In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any discipline or skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial arts. The Chinese literal equivalent of "Chinese martial art" would be 中國武術 zhōngguó wǔshù.[1]
There are many forms of kung fu, namely Shaolin Kung Fu, Wing Chun, Tai chi, etc. and are practiced all over the world. Each form of kung fu has its own principles and techniques, but is best known for its trickery and quickness, which is where the word Kung Fu is derived.

[Pam]

Quote Posted by Mike
Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.

I have had a couple of events that triggered a flooding of awareness about myself and my actions and motivations. The last event was precipitated by a traumatic event and it brought up the actions and motivations of my life. Some of it really ugly, the kind of ugly only someone who has been addicted to something might know. I guess I could have shoved them back down but I didn't do that. I might be blessed/cursed with having to look at events that I previously wrote off as happening strictly due to alcohol addiction and the things that can happen to addicts and the things that addicts do. It was really hard to realize that some things were my willful actions. They didn't fit the narrative I had made for myself.

The details aren't important, but the thing I would like to share is that although the realization left me feeling pretty broken and beaten,surprisingly, I began to notice some other things. I wasn't aware of a stiffness or a rigidness I carried with me as I protected those areas of myself I felt upheld my self narrative. I don't project as much as I used to. I am less anxious, less fearful and most of all, less judgmental. I am far more open in all areas, not just the ones I deem acceptable. In fact seeing myself with all my flaws has been the most freeing thing that has ever happened to me. It really is like being born again with a new, lighter perspective. To be rid of that psychic rigidness I didn't even know I had is wonderful.

I can see where this process would be much more challenging if someone doesn't have any blatant history that challenges their self perception. I believe just a willingness to do this opens the door.

I now understand the process of self inventory that is promoted in 12 step programs. I did it in the past, but I held back. I tried to protect myself and in reality I was distancing and cutting myself off of so much.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Ouch.

All I can say is Mike, I must like you better than you me, because I would never insult you like that.

Of course that means I agree I'm a nice guy, a coward, a beta male and a loser. It seems in your eyes I am those things.

Too bad.

Now goodbye, I have to go kill a virgin...:sun:

[Praxis]

For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.



no you got it brother. thats pretty much it.

Ok I am glad that we are all clear here.




and thank you for that excellent post earlier. i really enjoyed reading it, but i've been at work all day and evening and haven't had the chance to acknowledge it till now

it actually illustrates perfectly something i was trying to say, only you said it better. and the gist of it is, the best of us are the ones who know what kind of nasty sh!t we're capable of, but instead choose not to do those things.
.

What does this mean? If I know I can kill someone but then choose not to I am better than a person that doesnt know they can kill then doesnt( notice the second verb is not choose as there is now only one action available which is not kill)? I dont see how this is the case.

This doesnt sit well with me for some reason. How about the person that doesnt consider killing to begin with as the most moral? Doesnt it mean that you are less moral by even considering the violence which then you must suppress to become more moral? How very Vulcan of you.

The person who knows he can kill but doesnt is less moral than the person who doesnt even consider that an initial option. IMO




but if you don't even acknowledge that you're a monster, you can't choose not to be one. in other words, the nobility is in the choice to "do the right thing" as we often say.


So again I would have to argue the person that doesnt even consdier genocide as an option is much more moral than the one that does then rejects.



those that don't even acknowledge that they could do anything evil aren't giving themselves the opportunity to be noble:

"..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

~ Jordan Peterson


In this world view, only monsters are virtuous. This also assumes all people are monsters. Or seems to assume it.

[Mike]

Ouch.

All I can say is Mike, I must like you better than you me, because I would never insult you like that.

Of course that means I agree I'm a nice guy, a coward, a beta male and a loser. It seems in your eyes I am those things.

Too bad.

Now goodbye, I have to go kill a virgin...:sun:



Ernie ive always liked you! I recall you confessing to blocking me in a thread quite a while back, and i remember being so confused by that!:) I'd always appreciated you and I thought we'd always gotten on pretty well. I think we even had a little chuckle about that, if I recall correctly.

Earlier in this thread Autumn made the distinction between authentic kindness and what we normally call "nice". Kindness is an admirable virtue. I like treating people kindly and I like being treated kindly in return.

Authentic kindness doesn't make anyone a beta anything. It's not a weakness. It's an obvious strength.

People who are often excessively nice on the other hand, are usually doing it to cover up some deep insecurity, or have some kind of agenda..conscious or otherwise.

What part of this thread makes you think I'd accuse you of being a loser or a coward?

[Mike]

"..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

~ Jordan Peterson " "
........

Hi Mike noticed you're quite an admirer of his work. Me too especially his work in the classrooms and most of (not all) what he stood for on the public stage, brave Man. His daughter let slip Mom was the real power in the family, Mom should write a book 8) . I don't know enough about him to endorse him fully but you have to admire his efforts and intelligence whether you agree or not. Hope he recovers quickly, deffo a lively spark when on form. If only all teachers could spark inquiry like he can when he's firing right. His daughter has great potential too imo. GL to them as a family.


Hey Mac:)

i agree, i think Peterson's wife is the backbone of the family. i'd love to read her book if she wrote one.

in the last year or so ive taken a keen interest in more intellectual pursuits, all inspired by Peterson. But i'm not an intellectual!:) I really have to strain to keep a thread in my head. my brain has become weak over the years due to neglect. i wish i could articulate like dennis or mark or bill, but i have a ways to go.

this all represents for me a change in mental paradigm..moving from conspiracy and the paranormal to more tangible, utility oriented stuff. i will always love high strangeness and the paranormal and all that kind of stuff, but i just have to let it go for a while

all those brilliant interviews Bill did in the camelot days let us all know something was very wrong with the world. that was a ground breaking revelation for some, and spirit soothing confirmation for others. the question for many of us after watching all those videos - sometimes 4 or 5 times over - was, well what now???

i think i know the answer to that. and it doesn't lie in psychics or astrologists or alleged intuitive empaths or deep state insiders or whatever. it lies in critical thinking, and it lies in personal responsibility. i'm going to start a thread on it actually, and then i'll stop spamming the forum with my sh!t and go into hiding for a while:)


Jayke, i've been doing a deep dive on fludd. awesome stuff dude! appreciate you bringing him to my attention

[Mike]

Hi Praxis, there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.

imagine being in a forced labor camp during stalinist russia, for example. imagine for a moment that someone is going to steal the very small bit of food you've acquired to feed yourself and some loved ones. imagine one of them might die if they don't get some nutrition. well now you've got a situation on your hands, don't you?

or imagine an intruder has broken into your home and is about to harm someone you love.

so forth.

you may just have to be violent to remedy the situation. you may even have to kill someone. you'll have to conjure your inner monster to do so. if you haven't integrated your shadow/inner monster, you won't be able to act!

of course there are other less morally justifiable situations in which your inner monster may show up. i gave the example of nazi germany. you may sit there and tell me you would have been a hero in that situation, and maybe you're right. i can't be sure. but history would strongly suggest otherwise

look, it's a jungian concept. i can't explain it any better. if you want to know more, i'd suggest googling "jungian shadow"

[Strat]

If being in the Illuminati includes having a shoddy laptop, a 20 year old truck and no cash then maybe I am indeed part of the Illuminati.

Joking aside, agreed 100%. One could write a book on this but you summed it up nicely. I think if people were born with all the right answers so that when at the end of their days history looks back at that person and says they're great, then people would make better decisions. Nobody wants history to look back at them and think of them as a cog in the wheel of the epitome of evil.

Sort of like a "He who is without sin cast the first stone" kinda thing.

My favorite part from your post
We have no idea what it's like to have all that power. THANK YOU. Or to be in that position in general with all it entails. This doc came to mind though:
1sD3pG74Wv8

[RogeRio]

there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.


using (cosmo)ethics approach you can rationalize this paradox, by changing the paradigm through the layers where one individual are experiencing. Try to understand that this approach means be relative of the layers of the consciousness experiencing. Follow as an example of approach:

survival of species ( harm someone you love )
survival of DNA lineage (one harm your childs )
survival of individuals ( one steal a bit of food )

ethical approach dont use moral paradox to judge reactions (as consequences), because it know (are aware) that each layer are "Relative". That's the Point!

jungian shadow is a very nice name, because these (sub)conscious layers are related to the sub abdominal brain, and not to the brain where "awareness are located", so technically, these instincts can be understood as a shadow.

the mind control process (aka brainwash) aim to blind the (individual) brain to put on instinct mode of consciousness, because throught that (unaware) way, the reaction to "stimuli" its not much inteligent, as to say.

Human monstrosity is ethically called Human Cretinism (mere euphemism). Philosophically, was said there are only two things that humanity does not know the real size: One is the size of the Universe, and another is Human Cretinism.

The cretinism of the powers is govern people by ignorance and not by intelligence (as primary causes). They decide the fate of people they govern by instinct, so the people suffers the consequences to allow these powers choosing their fate. (this is also a evolutionary paradox of consciousness, in terms of civilization, pacification, etc).

[Praxis]

Hi Praxis, there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.

Yes, and I agree that the example of Nazi Germany that you used does indeed show that people can be whipped into a furher over xenophobia and otherization of the out group.
However, this seems to break with the spirit of your OP which I took be to a general discussion about mass consciousness. I thought we clarified this in post #26.

Which by the way is why I call out the policies I disagree with on the regular. I am seeing something, like holding children in cages and separating them from their families for being poor and brown, and then saying something. Then I am also saying that if you support the person DIRECTLY responsible for this policy(doesnt matter that Obama started it, it matters that Trump continues and Expands it, like he did with Guantanamo Bay Gulag) that you are more morally cupable than myself for this policy.

Yes I am responsible for the American Empire in that I am economically productive in that state and therefore passively support it. But If you support and vote for the politician that makes the empire, then you are worse than other citizens.

Yes the average german is responsible, but the nazi party members are more responsible. The former is passive responsibility which I admit we all share as citizens. The second is Active which not all of us do. If you support Trump, Obama, Bush ,Reagan, or Nixon, then you are actively responsible.




imagine being in a forced labor camp during stalinist russia, for example. imagine for a moment that someone is going to steal the very small bit of food you've acquired to feed yourself and some loved ones. imagine one of them might die if they don't get some nutrition. well now you've got a situation on your hands, don't you?

This is not an action but rather a reaction.



or imagine an intruder has broken into your home and is about to harm someone you love.

so forth.

This is a reaction and not action like the previous example as well.



you may just have to be violent to remedy the situation. you may even have to kill someone. you'll have to conjure your inner monster to do so. if you haven't integrated your shadow/inner monster, you won't be able to act!


More reactions and not actions.




of course there are other less morally justifiable situations in which your inner monster may show up. i gave the example of nazi germany. you may sit there and tell me you would have been a hero in that situation, and maybe you're right. i can't be sure. but history would strongly suggest otherwise

look, it's a jungian concept. i can't explain it any better. if you want to know more, i'd suggest googling "jungian shadow"

I would argue that my actions show that I would be the hero. Am I not constantly asking for the things I want? Am I not constantly criticizing Public Policy I find reprehensible? Most people on here dislike me because of this. Notice the thanks, i get very few and it is certain people that do it. Most people do not like that I active speak against Afghanistan Occupation, Iraq Occupation, JFK files not being released, 9-11 not being investigated again(especially with a New York real estate dude as the president who has the credibility to cast doubt to enough of his base to get that going but WOOPS his ****ing personal lawyer was the mayor that help cover that up https://www.corbettreport.com/911-suspects-rudy-giuliani/) I am sorry, You can say that I need to take a break but literally Rudy Guilanni is Trumps personal lawyer. If you cant see how that makes Trump a bad person . . .

I am doing every action I can to try and accomplish the change I want to see.

What your argument seems to do is give people an easy excuse for it happening.

Notice how all of your hypotheticals rely on an aggressor forcing a reaction upon you? You are giving a mode of reaction not action and I think that is telling.

Would you mind creating an active situation that creates the same outcome?

[Strat]

I would argue that my actions show that I would be the hero. Am I not constantly asking for the things I want? Am I not constantly criticizing Public Policy I find reprehensible? Most people on here dislike me because of this. Notice the thanks, i get very few and it is certain people that do it.

I would bet my house this has nothing to do with your views and everything to do with how you convey them.

[Dennis Leahy]

I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history...

Having just watched the documentary, The Power Principle, again, the concept of "facing and owning your Jungian shadow" and "the appropriate way to view history" are really vastly different topics and related primarily by semantics and bad logic.

You are basically concluding that virtually all of us, all of humanity, have the same capacity as the monsters who have created the greed, power, and fear-based actual history, and that because we have never held that power and wealth, we have no idea how we would behave, which you conclude would therefore be monstrously. False corollary, false equivalency, and false conclusions in the argument. It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them. Of course every single Democrat and Republican in the US that gains high office is corrupt or corruptible - they were selected for that trait, and their acquiescence to it. It's not human nature that is being exploited but rather the deliberate distillation of the evil outliers, the most despicable, the sociopaths, the gangsters, into Empire's gang.

Being cowered and brainwashed into submission by overlords into following their orders as a common outcome may be true, but it's a false leap of logic to say that this means that the brainwashed masses have thus become equivalent in any way to the evil overlords.

The "Illuminati" (globalists, new world order, etc. etc.) is the affiliation of society's outliers, the most despicable, the most evil, the most depraved, the greediest, the most power hungry, the sociopaths, the worst gangsters. Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group. That is a false assumption, a fantasy projection. It's like saying that everyone who simply holds a basketball has the capacity to be Michael Jordan, or that everyone that owns a refrigerator has the capacity to be Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Mike]

I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history...

Having just watched the documentary, The Power Principle, again, the concept of "facing and owning your Jungian shadow" and "the appropriate way to view history" are really vastly different topics and related primarily by semantics and bad logic.

You are basically concluding that virtually all of us, all of humanity, have the same capacity as the monsters who have created the greed, power, and fear-based actual history, and that because we have never held that power and wealth, we have no idea how we would behave, which you conclude would therefore be monstrously. False corollary, false equivalency, and false conclusions in the argument. It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them. Of course every single Democrat and Republican in the US that gains high office is corrupt or corruptible - they were selected for that trait, and their acquiescence to it. It's not human nature that is being exploited but rather the deliberate distillation of the evil outliers, the most despicable, the sociopaths, the gangsters, into Empire's gang.

Being cowered and brainwashed into submission by overlords into following their orders as a common outcome may be true, but it's a false leap of logic to say that this means that the brainwashed masses have thus become equivalent in any way to the evil overlords.

The "Illuminati" (globalists, new world order, etc. etc.) is the affiliation of society's outliers, the most despicable, the most evil, the most depraved, the greediest, the most power hungry, the sociopaths, the worst gangsters. Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group. That is a false assumption, a fantasy projection. It's like saying that everyone who simply holds a basketball has the capacity to be Michael Jordan, or that everyone that owns a refrigerator has the capacity to be Jeffrey Dahmer.



It sounds like you've been hanging out with Praxis:)

The thread title, admittedly, is click bait'ish.

Some statements I've made in the thread are deliberately aggressive and button pushing

But what I really intended was an intellectual exercise. I wanted people to consider, just for moment, that they're not necessarily as different from their oppressors as they'd like to believe.

Of course I can't say, with 100% certainty, what anyone here would do in some of the compromising situations I've listed. And maybe my nazi/illuminatti analogy isn't a perfect one. But history would suggest that most of us would not behave like we'd like to believe we would.

Try to see the spirit of the thread Denno. You're making it needlessly complicated.

And I don't view humanity as the helpless playthings of the "overlords". I don't think that's productive. It takes personal responsibility out of the equation. I'll write about all that in my next annoying thread, coming to a theatre near you soon.

[Sarah Rainsong]

I do think people are capable of doing horrible things, but nearly all won't do them without provocation and without intense psychological repercussions.

Whoever commented above about reactions vs actions made a very good point. Examining our shadow helps us to act instead of react, helps us to avoid being coerced or manipulated or from just making wrong choices.

It helps to ask this sort of question on a personal level, for self examination, but beyond that, I'm not sure it really serves much purpose.

Once you move beyond personal and into society at large, I think the better question is why do people have to choose?

[Mike]

I do think people are capable of doing horrible things, but nearly all won't do them without provocation and without intense psychological repercussions.

Whoever commented above about reactions vs actions made a very good point. Examining our shadow helps us to act instead of react, helps us to avoid being coerced or manipulated or from just making wrong choices.

It helps to ask this sort of question on a personal level, for self examination, but beyond that, I'm not sure it really serves much purpose.

Once you move beyond personal and into society at large, I think the better question is why do people have to choose?



very well said.

the whole point of integrating the shadow is so that it doesn't sneak up on you. if you've dealt with that side of you that is inherently capable of evil, it significantly lowers the chances that you might do something horrifying when presented with the opportunity to do so.

[Mike]

Praxis, almost all actions are reactions to something. it's circular, and in that way they're the same, and everything i've said still applies.

Hitler's actions didn't begin in a sterile bubble. He was reacting to something that he deemed unacceptable.

it's all situational, you're right. but i don't understand your point

everyone has a capacity for evil. some might express it violently in a simple traffic incident. it might take someone else to really and truly be pushed to their moral limits to eventually express it. if you've acquainted yourself with your inner monster and you know all it's mechanisms, you are much better prepared to deal with it, and you likely won't be that guy who shoots someone because they cut you off in traffic. and if you've really done the shadow work earnestly and with dedication, maybe you would even be that guy at the concentration camp that holds it all together and doesn't compromise his morals when everyone around him is.

[avid]

Equating with one standing on a bug, oops, wrong bug, no matter 🙄🙄

[Mike]

there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.


using (cosmo)ethics approach you can rationalize this paradox, by changing the paradigm through the layers where one individual are experiencing. Try to understand that this approach means be relative of the layers of the consciousness experiencing. Follow as an example of approach:

survival of species ( harm someone you love )
survival of DNA lineage (one harm your childs )
survival of individuals ( one steal a bit of food )

ethical approach dont use moral paradox to judge reactions (as consequences), because it know (are aware) that each layer are "Relative". That's the Point!

jungian shadow is a very nice name, because these (sub)conscious layers are related to the sub abdominal brain, and not to the brain where "awareness are located", so technically, these instincts can be understood as a shadow.

the mind control process (aka brainwash) aim to blind the (individual) brain to put on instinct mode of consciousness, because throught that (unaware) way, the reaction to "stimuli" its not much inteligent, as to say.

Human monstrosity is ethically called Human Cretinism (mere euphemism). Philosophically, was said there are only two things that humanity does not know the real size: One is the size of the Universe, and another is Human Cretinism.

The cretinism of the powers is govern people by ignorance and not by intelligence (as primary causes). They decide the fate of people they govern by instinct, so the people suffers the consequences to allow these powers choosing their fate. (this is also a evolutionary paradox of consciousness, in terms of civilization, pacification, etc).



you may just be saying something truly brilliant here, but i have to confess to not understanding a word of it:)

this may be more my fault then yours. i'm not sure.

i know english isn't your first language, and i want to say first that i'm impressed with everyone that is bilingual. i took 4 years of spanish and i can't say anything except to request to use the bathroom. so anyone that has taken the time and effort to learn multiple languages is a world beater in my book.

i would suggest trying to keep it pretty simple, with short declarative statements. i really want to understand you. i feel like you have loads of knowledge to share

[Mac]

Mike,
Don't be hard on yourself 8) . Nothing wrong with enthusiasm, and putting all your J P's thoughts in one thread might be a a good idea imo, I'd read it. I hope he gets well soon and goes after big pharma now he has direct experience of the insanity of some of it.

[TomKat]

Speaking of the shadow and the Illuminati reminds me of the Sabbateans, who supposedly embraced evil and treachery as a way of life. Perhaps they were originally inspired by the realization that you have to embrace darkness to erase it (although they reportedly weren't interested in erasing anything).

The shadow is mostly mental copies of one's oppressors glued together by one's own pain and spent life force. A human, being basically "good" or "light," will erase his shadow by thoroughly embracing and inspecting every nook and cranny of it. Someone could, upon uncovering a subconscious impulse toward depravity, embrace and inhabit the feeling thoroughly, like a method actor. At some point that dark energy would dissolve and they might even realize that it came from someone else, or an inaccurate idea of someone else. They would be on the road Home, to God.

But the Illuminati are travelling the other direction on that road, and would rather commit acts of depravity or, better, encourage young people to lead lives of depravity -- hence Hollywood and other social programmers.

[Dennis Leahy]

I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history...

Having just watched the documentary, The Power Principle, again, the concept of "facing and owning your Jungian shadow" and "the appropriate way to view history" are really vastly different topics and related primarily by semantics and bad logic.

You are basically concluding that virtually all of us, all of humanity, have the same capacity as the monsters who have created the greed, power, and fear-based actual history, and that because we have never held that power and wealth, we have no idea how we would behave, which you conclude would therefore be monstrously. False corollary, false equivalency, and false conclusions in the argument. It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them. Of course every single Democrat and Republican in the US that gains high office is corrupt or corruptible - they were selected for that trait, and their acquiescence to it. It's not human nature that is being exploited but rather the deliberate distillation of the evil outliers, the most despicable, the sociopaths, the gangsters, into Empire's gang.

Being cowered and brainwashed into submission by overlords into following their orders as a common outcome may be true, but it's a false leap of logic to say that this means that the brainwashed masses have thus become equivalent in any way to the evil overlords.

The "Illuminati" (globalists, new world order, etc. etc.) is the affiliation of society's outliers, the most despicable, the most evil, the most depraved, the greediest, the most power hungry, the sociopaths, the worst gangsters. Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group. That is a false assumption, a fantasy projection. It's like saying that everyone who simply holds a basketball has the capacity to be Michael Jordan, or that everyone that owns a refrigerator has the capacity to be Jeffrey Dahmer.




It sounds like you've been hanging out with Praxis:)I'd be honored to hang out with the guy with the moniker 'praxis' (I know his name, but don't know that he wants it used publicly. We've had a few communications 'off camera' and my heart "saw" his heart - yeah, an "Avatar" reference.) He a good man with a big heart. What some call, heart-centered. I'm 65 years old and have tempered my emotional reactions a bit more (because I saw it wasn't effective), and he does have a different style than I do, but he's not a punchline of a joke. If you really want an intellectual conversation, keep it intellectual. You sidestepped every point I made. I wanted to help bring the thread out of the blended topics that have been presented and try to show that you are making some logical fallacies. If you want to get on the debate team, you have to avoid logical fallacies that weaken or destroy your argument.


The thread title, admittedly, is click bait'ish.
Yes, it is. I have big respect for you as a person, which is why I brushed past the title and tried to dive into the context.


Some statements I've made in the thread are deliberately aggressive and button pushing
Well, if you want a catfight, you've got the formula. If you want an intellectual discussion, avoid emotion and stick with intellect. That does not mean dry and boring by the way, and you are brilliant with wit, humor, and comedic timing, which can be very effective tools in an intellectual discussion. "Use the Force, Luke!" (Use your skull-cracking humor as a tool, not as a weapon.)


But what I really intended was an intellectual exercise. I wanted people to consider, just for moment, that they're not necessarily as different from their oppressors as they'd like to believe.That's a lot gentler than insisting that everyone is inherently evil (and maybe inherently good too, you didn't specify that.)


Of course I can't say, with 100% certainty, what anyone here would do in some of the compromising situations I've listed. And maybe my nazi/illuminatti analogy isn't a perfect one. But history would suggest that most of us would not behave like we'd like to believe we would.
Again, much gentler (and, in my opinion, sadly true - but maybe not for the reason in your argument.)


Try to see the spirit of the thread Denno. You're making it needlessly complicated. As I pointed out, the thread went in two directions:
1.) most humans likely will follow heinous orders [when not doing so will get them gravely harmed or killed.]
To me, this is a good point, and an interesting discussion. (Note I immediately jumped into the question of how much of it has to do with programming/brainwashing (let's add fear for your own life), and how much of it has to do with truly innate evil - depraved indifference/sociopathy as innate qualities.

2.)everyone is evil, beneath the surface, and if you do not accept then confront this evil, you will likely perform evil
This is far beyond accepting that we all have a "shadow"/some "darkness" within us, and jumps all the way to evil. Here's where you jumped the shark, Fonzie. You're not distinguishing the sociopath from the rest of humanity. A small percentage of people have this psychological anomaly (and several articles I've read - one from a person diagnosed as sociopathic - say that even being a sociopath doesn't necessarily mean that the person acts out in harmful ways to others. You know, the sociopath sitting on the couch.) So, you made a bold statement that I recognize as incorrect, illogical, and the statement (a conflation of the other topic in the thread) was offered without any proof.

So, I believe it was you that made it complicated, by blending two topics (one I have to agree with; one I don't.)



And I don't view humanity as the helpless playthings of the "overlords". I don't think that's productive. It takes personal responsibility out of the equation. I'll write about all that in my next annoying thread, coming to a theatre near you soon.
You're right that we're not helpless - although I'd really really appreciate if someone comes up with a serviceable idea to deprogram our brainwashing, block our fear responses, and break free of the overlords. You put overlords in quotes, and if that means what I suspect it means, you are ignorant that there really is a class of malevolent overlords that literally control and own most of the world, or maybe don't believe they are evil, as in "It's just business. Nothing personal."

Are you interested in discovering who some of these evil mother****er are, and the actual history of their depravity? Then, I strongly recommend that you watch the powerful documentary that I have posted and cross-posted about over the last couple of days. I believe that you'll recognize that the sociopathy/psychopathy expressed by these beings is not something in Mike's shadow, or the vast vast majority of mankind. Like I said before, the capacity to exhibit instantaneous violence is one thing, the capacity, willingness, and desire to inflict torture and commit genocide - for money and power - is quite something else.

Also, keep your eyes open during the documentary, and see if you notice any actual victims of the monstrous, cold-blooded, psychopathy, and see if you'd describe them as pretending to be helpless, and/or if they are actually guilty of bringing it on themselves.

[Innocent Warrior]

Hi, Mike. :sun:

I explored this idea by putting myself in the position of the Illuminati, the primary example that you presented, and came to precisely the same conclusion as Dennis. It actually highlighted how different we are. They barely live in the same reality we do and are programmed to an insane degree.

I get what you’re saying to Dennis and Praxis about missing the point but it’s inevitable because the example you’ve used distracts from the intellectual exercise. Their views aren’t distracting from it, they’re pointing out the distraction.

I hope I’m not annoying you because my intent is to help clear up the distraction so the discussion can progress more along the lines of the intended exercise, which is a very powerful one due to how much it reveals about oneself (it’s excellent). I’m also hoping the discussion can really dig into the whole concept of shadow work, I’m really interested in reading about how individuals go about it, what it looks like for them and the effects they’ve observed, Peterpam’s post being a brilliant example. It would also be fascinating to see the differences and any universals that arise.

Putting your message more simply, I see it like this. Human beings are highly programmable, it’s necessary to fully comprehend this and examine oneself honestly in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes as those whom you see as your oppressors. We’re inclined to think of ourselves as the heroes, however, given precisely the same conditions, we’d be no different and denying that only ensures we’re more at risk of being the villain. Put yourself in the shoes of the villain, an honest exploration and examination of that is a brilliant way to put oneself to the test, and very revealing in multiple ways.

That could be unpacked for days, but that’s my understanding of the heart of what you’re saying. Correct me if I’m wrong.

*****

My reply... My greatest oppressor is myself. I do shadow work in two primary ways; self observation and dream analysis.

Self observation. I am unable to separate the spiritual from the temporal, I cannot put one aside to focus on the other, rather I seek to harmonise them. Another way of putting it is I reprogram my temporal according to my HS, aligning the temporal with the spiritual in the process. This is like yanking a wild tiger by the tail, my ego will fight this process to the bitter end, whatever that turns out to be. During the course of my days I am almost ceaselessly confronted by my shadow, I need not seek it and my task is to hold my own despite it, shadow work is required if I’m to make any ground.

Dreams. I often have dreams that, once fully processed, reveal to me aspects of my shadow that are in the way of my goals.

[Mike]

Dennis, brother...I will watch your documentary and respond to all your points...in that order. But not now, because I just wrote a monolithic thing on the racism thread and my heart's just not into it at the moment.

P.S. no matter how much we may disagree, remember: Fonzie still loves you:heart:

[Mac]

Something you typed got me thinking re the critical thinking and personal responsibility. J Peterson is an admirer of Carl Jung, where did Jung get his brilliant insights on the human condition. Search Jung the "mystic" I hate that word but there ya go. Also have you heard Peterson on the subject of mysticism and dreams. In fact I can't think of a historical giant who didn't experience the ( insert..oh I don't know )
Perhaps that's the true meaning of illuminati before it was corrupted. Again I agree though, 8) for us mere mortals personal responsibility and trying not to be stupid is the way to go.

edit]
why I didn't put critical thinking.. https://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/defining-critical-thinking/766https://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/defining-critical-thinking/766

Very hard to do unless you have all the facts. All we can do is work with where we are and to be a true critical thinker takes serious discipline and practice imo. Bloody insomnia tonight so bored. My lovely wife has stopped snoring, so may get off now.

[Mike]

ok Denno here ya go..

- re Praxis: Yes, I made a joke, but I wasn't saying anything disrespectful about Praxis. Or you. It's just that you both seem to be misunderstanding me.

- I didn't deliberately sidestep your points to be a d!ck or anything. It's just that i've explained myself multiple times and in a multitude of ways, and repeating it all again seemed redundant.

- In order for threads to have life and juice, imo they need to be right at the border of chaos and order, trending slightly towards order. I don't want anyone to be too comfortable or to feel too safe. That's the death of intellectual discussion. I don't want them to be too horrified either. It's a balance, and some aggression and button pushing are effective in achieving that balance. I invite some emotion. This thread is crackling with energy. Just consider for a moment how you feel while you're posting on it. Haven't you felt alive debating this stuff? ..Challenged? ..Excited about articulating your position? It's because of the way it's constructed. "..Luuuke, you're enjoying the dark side of the force...search your feelings(shadow) and you will see it to be true.."

- Ever hear of the Zimbardo prison experiment? https://www.simplypsychology.org/zimbardo.html

"...it was a social psychological study in which college students became prisoners or guards in a simulated prison environment. However, mistreatment of prisoners escalated so alarmingly that principal investigator Philip Zimbardo was forced to terminate the experiment after only 6 days..."

The student guards, seemingly normal and decent people, became quite sinister in 6 bloody days. That's all it took. And they weren't selected by the overlords. They weren't political puppets.

- I didn't say everyone was inherently evil. Or good. the point is that everyone has the potential for the greatest of good and the evilest of evil. There is an inner sociopath in all of us, in my opinion. There is a spectrum of potential that exists in all of us...with the extreme good at one end and the extreme bad at the other. The only difference between you and the sociopath is the difference of space that exists between the two of you at any given point in time on the spectrum. That's how I see it anyway. And I think that's how Jung saw it.

There are several factors involved in that distance. One being situational. The outside circumstances. It may just be that person B's life was excruciatingly brutal, and person A's life was somewhat easy by comparison. Rachel gave the example of putting herself in the shoes of an illuminati member. It's a good start when doing shadow work, but without actually being an illuminatti member we don't really know what we'd do in that situation or how we'd turn out as adults having been exposed to all the programming. You may sit there and tell me you'd be an angel after that, but I doubt it. Chances are you'd be just as vicious and sinister and unfeeling as the worst of them.

The other factor involved is personal responsibility. If you're trending away from the bad side of the spectrum, it's likely because you have practiced doing good things, and having done them, have developed the discipline and virtue to continue doing them. It's all the thousands of micro and macro decisions we make on a daily/monthly/yearly basis that place where we are on that spectrum at any given point in time. A sociopath developes poor habits early (perhaps his father was absent, perhaps he was poor and fell into gang life, or perhaps he just had poor discipline) which build and multiply over time, and as he becomes more desensitized to his deeds, that desensitazation pushes him closer and closer to the sociopath side of the spectrum.

Another factor is genetics. Some people are just born f#cked up, lets face it. It doesn't totally excuse them from their personal responsibility, but their challenge is inherently more difficult than a "normal" person. They've got a bit of a head start in the sociopath direction, and will have to work a little harder to avoid it.

So there's several factors that determine one's position on the spectrum: bad outward circumstances, conditioning, genetics, and personal responsibility. Several are likely in play when it comes to the sociopath.

The probability of you, Dennis Leahy, right now doing something sociopathic is likely close to zero. But its not because your good/evil spectrum has changed in any way, or because it's any different than a sociopaths..it's because A) the way you've lived your life has placed you far away from that possibility from ever occurring. B) it must be said that you were fortunate enough to not have been born into an illuminati family, and have therefore avoided all that horrific programming. C) it doesn't appear to me that you have any genetic issues that would cause you to trend in that direction.

- if you cultivate virtue and practice personal responsibility, and do sufficent shadow work, you might have the moral fortitude to not become a Nazi, or not become a full blown illuminatti practicioner...no matter what your outward circumstances or conditioning. So there is hope for even the unluckiest of us. And that is my answer on how to deal with the current situation. It's also much more than that, and I'll elaborate in my next thread

- I have distinguished the sociopath from the rest of society, just not in the way you might maybe. It's all described in the paragraphs above

- I'm not necessarily saying that the brainwashed masses are the equivalent of the overlords. But I'm saying that under the right circumstances and right stressors, they could be. As I understand it, many of those overlords had absolutely brutal childhoods, filled with sickening sexual abuse, relentless mind tampering, and all kinds of trauma in between. Anyone having endured that would have likely wound up in a similar situation. Anyone...

..and that, in a nutshell, is the point of the thread.

I know I said I'd watch the video first, but like I pm'd you, there are several with the same title and I want to make sure I'm watching the right one.

Let me know if i've missed anything. And I want to emphasize that these are mostly my opinions. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, i'm simply disagreeing with you, respectfully. It may just be that you're right and the thread is a little disjointed, but I still think it's pretty coherent. The various ideas all mesh ultimately.

- I'm saying that under the right circumstances anyone could have become what our overlords are. I gave the example of Nazi Germany as a historical reference point. I suggested we all view ourselves as potential perpetrators when viewing history, which is another way of saying we should all acknowledge our shadow. If we do that, cultivate virtue, and embrace personal responsibility, we may just give ourselves the chance to not fall victim to atrocity when it is presented to us. I can't summarize it any more succinctly than that, or make it any clearer.

[Gracy]

I believe that you'll recognize that the sociopathy/psychopathy expressed by these beings is not something in Mike's shadow, or the vast vast majority of mankind. Like I said before, the capacity to exhibit instantaneous violence is one thing, the capacity, willingness, and desire to inflict torture and commit genocide - for money and power - is quite something else.
That exact thought occurred to me last evening while contemplating this fine thread Dennis.

Having already experienced the moment, I know exactly what it's like to actually become my shadow.

I wrote about in in a thread I started some time ago. Long story short we used to have this horrible neighbor who was a very nasty drunk, my baby boy at the time made the "mistake" of daring chase a ball into his back yard, and that son of a bitch came stumbling out of his house going after him.

Skinny lil me grabbed a sizeable tree branch that happened to be laying there, flew over that fence, and confronted him with it. I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he so much as laid a hand on my child I wasn't just going to hit him with that stick, I was going to kill him with it. And it was going to be over with very quickly! Staring eye to eye, I knew it, he knew it, and he wisely went back into his house rather than test mama bear.

Point being here I know I'm capable of violence, enough to even kill someone on the spot if required, but I would NEVER draw it out, torture, or do it for any kind of gain. *Only for defensive purposes*.

And that's imo one of the main differences here between the average persons shadow side, and a controlling psychopath.

[Caliban]

Shadows are good. They give you a respite.

Illuminati not good. They be blinded by the light.

[Dennis Leahy]

Mike, thanks very much for your willingness to view the documentary that I recommended (http://metanoia-films.org/the-power-principle/ , and then click on Watch Online text link on the right)

You'll see real sociopaths/psychopaths and their victims in that film. Note that sociopathy (at least from my understanding), is not really something that can be "caught", like cooties or COVD-19 - it's more like being gay (though there are people that erroneously also believe that someone can "become gay" by hanging out with gay people.) (I'm using that example rather than "having green eyes" because no one thinks that having green eyes can be inculcated into another person.)

I know we have a thread or two on recognizing and maybe dealing with sociopathy. Not sure how great a resource that is or if it would hold weight with you, but check into some trusted scientific source and read about sociopathy. Growing up surrounded by sociopaths, and even sociopaths that are deliberately trying to get a person to conform to and act like them - and they may succeed with that - doesn't mean they have actually altered the other person's brain to be clinically a sociopath. We're really not all sociopaths, or all evil, for that matter, even if it is true that people's behaviors can be shaped and manipulated - and that we have subconscious "shadow." If Jung (or Jordan Peterson, or others who have studied the human mind) insists that we really are all sociopaths deep down, then I'd remind us not to make that logical fallacy, "deferring to a higher authority." There are people who insist that the Earth and the entire Universe were created in 7 days, because God said so (as an example of deferring to a higher authority.) Did someone that you trust say that we are all (or all have a capacity to be) sociopaths, or is that a conclusion that you have drawn?

I have heard about the Stanford prison experiment (but didn't remember Zimbardo's name.) Could another conclusion be drawn that the people who were assigned the role of "guard" were really exhibiting their own understanding of what a prison guard's mind is like - in other words, play acting? If you were in an experiment, and were told that your role was to be a military drone bomber operator, or a cop that beat people to death with his nightstick, you wouldn't play that role by setting up a lemonade stand or picking bouquets of flowers. From the article you posted a link to: "Guards were instructed to do whatever they thought was necessary to maintain law and order in the prison and to command the respect of the prisoners." Plus, these were college-age kids, 18 to 21, which I don't believe we can extrapolate to represent "human nature."

[Mike]

it may just be that i have a thing or 2 to learn about sociopathy. everything ive written here is based on my current understanding, opinion, and intuition...all heavily based on my reading of jung and nietszche, and listening to a sh!tload of jordan peterson. maybe i'm off by more than a few degrees. maybe i've got them wrong in some ways. maybe i'm connecting some wayward dots...but as of right now i feel pretty comfortable with what i'm saying

gonna watch that video in it's entirety and report back here. if i have to eat some crow, i will eat it brother. 100%.
:handshake:

[Mike]

I believe that you'll recognize that the sociopathy/psychopathy expressed by these beings is not something in Mike's shadow, or the vast vast majority of mankind. Like I said before, the capacity to exhibit instantaneous violence is one thing, the capacity, willingness, and desire to inflict torture and commit genocide - for money and power - is quite something else.
That exact thought occurred to me last evening while contemplating this fine thread Dennis.

Having already experienced the moment, I know exactly what it's like to actually become my shadow.

I wrote about in in a thread I started some time ago. Long story short we used to have this horrible neighbor who was a very nasty drunk, my baby boy at the time made the "mistake" of daring chase a ball into his back yard, and that son of a bitch came stumbling out of his house going after him.

Skinny lil me grabbed a sizeable tree branch that happened to be laying there, flew over that fence, and confronted him with it. I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he so much as laid a hand on my child I wasn't just going to hit him with that stick, I was going to kill him with it. And it was going to be over with very quickly! Staring eye to eye, I knew it, he knew it, and he wisely went back into his house rather than test mama bear.

Point being here I know I'm capable of violence, enough to even kill someone on the spot if required, but I would NEVER draw it out, torture, or do it for any kind of gain. *Only for defensive purposes*.

And that's imo one of the main differences here between the average persons shadow side, and a controlling psychopath.



thanks Gracy May. appreciate you sharing that here!

i agree with your conclusion there, mostly.

it this current moment, right now, your mentality of violence for defensive purposes only separates you from a controlling sociopath. that's true! and that could be said of probably most everyone here. we're all fundamentally good people.

but, what i'm throwing into the equation is this: what if you had been raised in one of those hideous generational illuminati families? what if you'd endured all that ritual abuse and mind tampering? might you have become a sociopath then?

that's an extreme example. the mafia assassin, richard kuklinsky was beaten mercilessly by his drunk father when he was a boy. that was the birth of his sociopathy.

i don't know enough about hitler to speak as any kind of authority, but i believe the frustration from his failed/repressed artistic aspirations was the genesis of his sociopathy.

everyone's trigger is different it appears, and there are a number of factors involved in all of it..which ive tried to explain in my response to Dennis. it's quite complex...because not everyone who gets beaten by their father or has their artistic aspirations squelched becomes a sociopath of course

it's all pretty layered imo

[Mike]

...people stop feeling their emotions in response to too much pain.

everyone has a breaking point, even the best of us. when we hit it, we go numb. if one gets bombarded with too much trauma, the system gets overloaded and that numbness becomes terminal. this can result in sociopathy - someone who is no longer feeling any empathy whatsoever.

i don't think any of us are immune. some are likely born with a higher probability of it happening with maybe a minimum amount of trauma. but we all have the potential, imo

[Orph]

... what if you had been raised in one of those hideous generational illuminati families? what if you'd endured all that ritual abuse and mind tampering? might you have become a sociopath then?

Under those conditions then perhaps yes, maybe I would've become a sadistic killer. But would that be the "real" me? I remember once, a long time ago, when I was just a kid, I was watching a nature show on TV. I don't remember it specifically, but 2 animals were fighting or something. Anyway, this was "part of nature" so to speak, and not human inflicted pain. But I couldn't bear to see the "suffering". I had to get up and leave the room.

Even now, I'll have to change the channel when I see something like that. (I'm quite sure there is some unresolved inner issue's that I need to deal with on some level, but that's another topic). Anyway, my point is, in the context of this discussion, I'm pretty sure I would never be a psychopath. Not of my own volition anyway. But as you say, Mike, perhaps I might have become one if I were born into the right circumstances. Then again, perhaps I would've been too weak willed to become a killer. So, I guess I'll just leave the answer as -- it's a possibility.

[Gracy]

...people stop feeling their emotions in response to too much pain.

everyone has a breaking point, even the best of us. when we hit it, we go numb. if one gets bombarded with too much trauma, the system gets overloaded and that numbness becomes terminal. this can result in sociopathy - someone who is no longer feeling any empathy whatsoever.

i don't think any of us are immune. some are likely born with a higher probability of it happening with maybe a minimum amount of trauma. but we all have the potential, imo

Well sure Mike. No one's immune to brainwashing/programming, period, that's why we talk so much about the awakening process. It's the gradual process of seeing through, and thus striving to shed the programming one has been ingrained in. It can be as simple as popping to attention with one's hand over their heart to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" without even realizing what they're really doing, or as heinous as being programmed to go kill those damn "towel heads" in Iraq because one has been led to see them see them as disgusting garbage.

But that's not true psychopathy, because the escape hatch is always cracked open deep within to make a possible recovery, to reclaim one's humanity like this ex marine does when he ends his confessional with apologies, and the haunting words "I am no longer the monster that I once was".

Well worth the 10 minutes, and I think it strikes very close to the heart of what's being discussed here.

B6hp8HMstkE

[RogeRio]

you may just be saying something truly brilliant here, but i have to confess to not understanding a word of it:)


Hey Mike, Many Thanks to the enthusiasm, and I appreciate a lot the feedback. Of course I can explain "the words" again (and again) if needed, but if I didn't get the feedback I would not know I need to improve my words to explain again.

Worth to note, I'm able to use another Consciential Paradigm to develop scientific thoughts, instead only the current knowed Cartezian & Newtonian & Aristotelic Paradigm. Only to introduce the difference, current Cartezian exclude the evolutionary consciouness as an essencial element from the nature of all things.

Before, its interesting to note that Praxis also told about "Action & Reaction", and Dennis told about "Primary Causes" (Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group), so, me, Praxis, Dennis and others told same things, but I may used few words.

I think my words may seems confuse because of concatenation of concepts and rationalization of thoughts, so I'll try to explain more better this time.

Let's go to some conceptual descriptions:

(1) (cosmo)ethics approach -- means the applied thoughts are not limited to planet Earth.

The use of ethics means the approach will be isent of biased circumstances to avoid moral judgments, and the use of Cosmo means that ethics will be maximized to fits on planet Earth, Solar System, Milk Way, etc. because even ethics can have layers of thoughts related to its proper dimension.

The intention of that analyse is safeguard all elements necessary for the applied ethics to be stable and robust, because from this background we can get integrated paradigms to solve lot of paradoxes, or in other words, lot of adversities.

(2) rationalize paradox by changing paradigm -- means that if the paradigms are integrated from the background, whatever is used the ethical principles are preserved. With this free options of thoughts, the possibilities of reasoning and the degree of rationality tend to be broader, because although the problem remains the same, the way to think and resolve it properly may vary according to the circumstances in which the paradox is observed or experienced.

on this regard, the paradox observed was -- A nice person acting as a monster.
(I assume it's a human paradox)

(3) layers of consciousness experiencing -- means that everything that can be observed and experienced is Relative to ethics (paradigms), reasoning (paradoxes) and of course, to individual action-reaction, being aware or not of the layers involved. The issue of layers can be symbolized by an onion effect.

These three concepts above was concatenated in one single phrase:


using (cosmo)ethics approach you can rationalize this paradox, by changing the paradigm through the layers where one individual are experiencing.what follow as an example of approach of instinctive reactions " related to the sub abdominal brain, and not to the brain where "awareness are located" "



survival of species ( harm someone you love )
survival of DNA lineage (one harm your childs )
survival of individuals ( one steal a bit of food )The three first chakras of a living being that composes the sub abdominal brain are the Basic (food & guts), the Esplenic (sex & pleasure) and the Solar Plexus (main physical force of expression). The three survival experiences quoted above, represent these three chakras (food, child, love).

These layers of consciousness are more related to Reactions than Actions, because We Want food when feel hungry, We Want sex when want to reproduce or having pleasure, and We Want to love when we feel good with another being, so althought can appears an action, its almost pure reaction of stimuli.



the mind control process (aka brainwash) aim to blind the (individual) brain to put on instinct mode of consciousness, because throught that (unaware) way, the reaction to "stimuli" its not much inteligent, as to say.The cardio-chakra intermediate the sub abdominal brain and the three superior chakras is (where awareness are located). Then we have the Laringeo (speak), the Third Eye (vision) and the Crown (top of head). So, of course, the Brain is there. Just by reference, in the scope of the vision we can add the smell of things, because the nose is close to the eyes and it's a way of identify the things (without touch). So, for the pourposes here, vision means vision & smell.

Brainwash process suppress normal functions of brain through mind control, indeed, controling speak & vision to individuals not hear/speak and also not see the obvious. Any animal can be conditioned to react first instead of thinking more better what to do, because thinking takes time to identify, process and choose, before actually one can acts or reacts to any stimuli. So, " unaware way it's not much inteligent ", as to say.



Human monstrosity is ethically called Human Cretinism (mere euphemism). Philosophically, was said there are only two things that humanity does not know the real size: One is the size of the Universe, and another is Human Cretinism.this part I tried to put a little humor and philosophy, also mitigating that monstrosity it's not appropriate to interpret for example, a power lion killing a helpless gazelle, because of laws of survivor.

but the human cretinism as similar the size of universe can be a real monster.

I personally do not exempt myself from this, nor do I say I can not be sometimes an cretin either. I even try not to be like that, but I'm not perfect, because sometimes I can kill a helpless cockroach, and of course it’s not for eating. (lol)



The cretinism of the powers is govern people by ignorance and not by intelligence (as primary causes). They decide the fate of people they govern by instinct, so the people suffers the consequences to allow these powers choosing their fate.Power people and governants are surely inteligent persons, but when they govern by instinct, they choose to make brainwasher to take advantages and stay in power positions. Otherwise, they govern by Fear imposing their power by force, whether physical, psychic or mental, resulting in the same situation, or worse.

The delicate issue here, is that we think are choosing governants and they are becoming puppets of "unknowed" elites which control our fate by unethical way.

This exerpt from Dennys below leads to similar point of view.


It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them.

Lately, I don't think I wrote something brilliant, because is surely convergent with contents posted by others members. I worry a bit about not being well understood, but in this case, I ask to question or give me feedback to explain the concepts more better.

thanks for all, and I hope someway be useful to improve thoughts and knowledge on this thread.

[Mike]

...people stop feeling their emotions in response to too much pain.

everyone has a breaking point, even the best of us. when we hit it, we go numb. if one gets bombarded with too much trauma, the system gets overloaded and that numbness becomes terminal. this can result in sociopathy - someone who is no longer feeling any empathy whatsoever.

i don't think any of us are immune. some are likely born with a higher probability of it happening with maybe a minimum amount of trauma. but we all have the potential, imo

Well sure Mike. No one's immune to brainwashing/programming, period, that's why we talk so much about the awakening process. It's the gradual process of seeing through, and thus striving to shed the programming one has been ingrained in. It can be as simple as popping to attention with one's hand over their heart to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" without even realizing what they're really doing, or as heinous as being programmed to go kill those damn "towel heads" in Iraq because one has been led to see them see them as disgusting garbage.

But that's not true psychopathy, because the escape hatch is always cracked open deep within to make a possible recovery, to reclaim one's humanity like this ex marine does when he ends his confessional with apologies, and the haunting words "I am no longer the monster that I once was".

Well worth the 10 minutes, and I think it strikes very close to the heart of what's being discussed here.

B6hp8HMstkE



Well i think the escape hatch is still cracked open for everyone, sociopaths included. Redemption is always a possibility I think.

This is best archetypally demonstrated in the star wars movies, when Darth Vader has his epiphany while the emperor is killing Luke.

Just as I think the best of us can become the most evil, I think the most evil can become the best.

[Mac]

...people stop feeling their emotions in response to too much pain.

everyone has a breaking point, even the best of us. when we hit it, we go numb. if one gets bombarded with too much trauma, the system gets overloaded and that numbness becomes terminal. this can result in sociopathy - someone who is no longer feeling any empathy whatsoever.

i don't think any of us are immune. some are likely born with a higher probability of it happening with maybe a minimum amount of trauma. but we all have the potential, imo

Well sure Mike. No one's immune to brainwashing/programming, period, that's why we talk so much about the awakening process. It's the gradual process of seeing through, and thus striving to shed the programming one has been ingrained in. It can be as simple as popping to attention with one's hand over their heart to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" without even realizing what they're really doing, or as heinous as being programmed to go kill those damn "towel heads" in Iraq because one has been led to see them see them as disgusting garbage.

But that's not true psychopathy, because the escape hatch is always cracked open deep within to make a possible recovery, to reclaim one's humanity like this ex marine does when he ends his confessional with apologies, and the haunting words "I am no longer the monster that I once was".

Well worth the 10 minutes, and I think it strikes very close to the heart of what's being discussed here.

B6hp8HMstkE

I got to two minutes and couldn't go any further, breaks your heart. I've seen this in real life, all the ones I've known who've returned from war are either broken or ticking time bombs. Takes years for them to recover if ever, innocent victims barely out of childhood. At least these days it is acknowledged more, and ex soldiers are creating safety nets to help ease soldiers healthily back into society.
Your point about the " awakening process " to your brainwashing is spot on imo, and can't be stressed enough.
I'm going to cut to the chase now and simplify why I was interacting with Mike and what I was skirting round whether it be right or wrong it's what I think.
I worry when I hear people buying into anything hook line and sinker. No matter what it is, be it religion or great works/thinking, it's just the start and shouldn't be worn like clothes.
I'm far from an expert on anything but that's the vibe I get off the ppl responding to Mike " be careful, by all means digest but there's probably something you're missing " and that applies to us all imo. Sorry for the drift but Gracy's post made my head whirl a bit.

[AutumnW]

Dr. Michael Stone explains psychopathy in children. They are predators, regardless of upbringing. The predilection for torturing animals often segues into sexual deviancy when they are adults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqnd-kUao

When it comes to the shadow, I think it's important to differentiate evil with the garden variety shadowy elite who acts on 'business as usual,' ideology. The business as usual type is no different than anybody with a stock portfolio who protests war but invests in Lougheed Martin and Raytheon. As far as actual hardcore evil goes, there would be a subset of actual psychopaths within the elite population, as these traits have survival value, if they are coupled with high intellect.

Sociopathy is cultural, to a large degree. Hyper capitalism segues into fascism, demands war to expand markets and creates a large population that worships success at the expense of more important values. They have embraced and acted on the shadow, without even being under duress.

[Richter]

Killing someone is a very complicated affair.

First of all you want to get away with it, otherwise it's a lose lose situation.

So instead of doing it yourself, you hire a professional.

And not a thug with the brain capacity of a shrimp, but a top notch, ice cold killer.

Those guys are expensive.

Do any of you people actually know a contract killer?

I thought so.

[Mike]

Killing someone is a very complicated affair.

First of all you want to get away with it, otherwise it's a lose lose situation.

So instead of doing it yourself, you hire a professional.

And not a thug with the brain capacity of a shrimp, but a top notch, ice cold killer.

Those guys are expensive.

Do any of you people actually know a contract killer?

I thought so.


dude that's the plot of every crime noir movie ever made? what's your point?

[Mike]

Dr. Michael Stone explains psychopathy in children. They are predators, regardless of upbringing. The predilection for torturing animals often segues into sexual deviancy when they are adults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqnd-kUao

When it comes to the shadow, I think it's important to differentiate evil with the garden variety shadowy elite who acts on 'business as usual,' ideology. The business as usual type is no different than anybody with a stock portfolio who protests war but invests in Lougheed Martin and Raytheon. As far as actual hardcore evil goes, there would be a subset of actual psychopaths within the elite population, as these traits have survival value, if they are coupled with high intellect.

Sociopathy is cultural, to a large degree. Hyper capitalism segues into fascism, demands war to expand markets and creates a large population that worships success at the expense of more important values. They have embraced and acted on the shadow, without even being under duress.



interesting video. thx Autumn.

so it would appear that the worst of the worst are born that way.

makes sense.

but even within that small slice of the pie, i do wonder if there is a spectrum that includes kids who can be reached emotionally. Dr Stone sounds doubtful.

it could be that we're getting too caught up on the word sociopath. the thread title is you are the illuminati, and within the illuminat there are quite a few sociopaths, clearly, but also just some despicable piece of sh!t people who may not technically qualify as being a sociopath but are nonetheless quite horrifying. if we're all not capable of being sociopaths (i'm still not entirely convinced of it quite yet, but i'm only about a quarter of the way thru Dennis' recommended video, in fairness), i think we can agree that under the right circumstances we're all capable of being ruthless hunks of sh!t. in which case the spirit of the thread still applies.

[Jayke]

Another favourite illuminatus of mine is Thales of Miletus (https://www.iep.utm.edu/thales/#H13), who was a pre-Socratic philosopher and one of the first Ionian/Phoenician Greeks to be initiated into the Egyptian mysteries:

===========


https://humanityhealing.net/2013/07/thales-of-miletus-nine-answers-a-wiseman/





Thales of Miletus: Nine Answers of a Wiseman
Thales of Miletus (1) was born in Thebes in the year 625 BC and died in Athens, 547 BC, at age 78. He was a Greek philosopher, founder of the Ionian school and he was considered to be one of the Seven Sages of Greece. Mathematician, astronomer, and great thinker, Thales toured Egypt, where he conducted studies and was directly exposed to the mysteries of Egyptian spirituality/religion.

It is attributed to him the prediction of the solar eclipse in the year 585 BC, which was held an incredible feat. His mathematical talent was so unusual; it was able to establish accurately the height of the pyramids through the measuring of the shadow. Moreover, according to Herodotus, Thales of Miletus was the first mathematician to give a logical explanation for the occurrence of eclipses. Thales was the first to verify that the moon as in fact “illuminated” by the Sun, being the first one to count how many days a year was comprised of. According to Aristotle, this discovery was a landmark for the history of philosophy. Later, because of his brilliant demonstrations of the geometric theorems, he was also regarded as the father of Geometry.

Once a sophist approached Thales of Miletus, and sought to confuse him with difficult rhetoric questions. However, the sage Thales of Miletus was keen to the test because all the questions were answered without the slightest hesitation and with even greater accuracy:

1 – What is the oldest thing? – GOD, because it has always existed.

2 – What would it be the most beautiful thing? – THE UNIVERSE, because it is God’s work

3 – What is the greatest of all things? – SPACE, because it contains the entire Creation

4 – What is the most constant thing? – HOPE, because it remains in man after he has lost everything else.

5 – What is the best of all things? – VIRTUE, because without it there is nothing good.

6 – What is the fastest of all things? – THINKING, because in less than a minute can fly away and reach the end of the Universe.

7 – What would be the strongest of all things? – NEED, because it makes the man face all the dangers of life.

8 – What is the easiest of all things? – The act of giving advice

But when it came to answering the ninth question, the Greek Wiseman whispered a paradox. He gave an answer that was probably never understood by the mundane interlocutor.

9 – What is the hardest of all things?

And the Thales of Miletus said: – To know thyself.

===========

It was from Thales that the Delphic temple to Apollo got its famous maxim: “know thyself and thy shall know the gods”.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/thales/#H13

Maybe sociopaths are made when the faculties of Hope, Virtue and Thinking are stunted, snuffed out or underdeveloped — so all that remains are the merciless needs of a predatory animal instinct?

Michael Tsarion did an excellent presentation on the Origins of Evil. It’s been years since I watched it but there’s a quote in their somewhere along the lines of “people would rather destroy the world around them and watch everything burn, rather than turn inwards and face the truth of their own shadow”.

I’ve always liked Jordan Peterson, but Tsarions work, especially the areas around psychology, is truly on another level imo.

eKFk9lqh0Gg

[RogeRio]

the thread title is you are the illuminati

Hey Mike, I think you now can understand more better the contents I posted before, So can you see why I suggest Cretinism, instead Sociopath ?

I also guess worth to register on this thread some Q/A from Dialogue with Hidden Hand (http://illuminati-news.com/00363.html), highlighting phrases where I suspect Hidden Hand is being a bit cretin (or unethical, a better word to be more politically correct)




ATS: Are we really considered chattel and traded as such by the government?

HH: By the governments, generally, yes. People are seen as 'collateral'. Pawns that are maneuvered around the chess board, according to the game plan. By the Family, contrary to popular beliefs, many of us do not mean you any harm directly. There is just the matter of divine destiny to uphold and unfold, and we must play our parts in the game, as given to us by the Creator. In many ways, it is actually in our own interest that you are prepared for the coming Harvest. Just not maybe prepared in quite the way that you would like. Still, even then, you are choosing the Negative Polarity with your own Free Will decisions, with a little 'help' and direction from us. Souls are Harvestable in either 'extreme' of the Polarities, one could say.


ATS: Why do you want a negative harvest?

HH: It is complicated to put into words, and also I must be careful with what I say on this. I've already had a "slap on the wrist", you could say.

If we do not have a Negative Harvest, we are bound with you for another cycle. Once this Great Harvest is completed, our Contract with the Council and our Creator is also completed. In other words, we have done our duty, and would be free to return to our Fullest Expression, that of Sixth (nearly Seventh) Density Galactic Guardians, and ones who joyfully offer ourselves in Service to the One Infinite Creator, and to our Brothers and Sisters across the Galaxy. However, there is a problem. Well, you would call it a "problem", we call it a Challenge. I will address this later in more detail, in response to another question, but in short, we need a very high percentage of Negative Polarity, if we are to achieve a Negative Harvest. In other words, we have to be Self-Service-Centred to an extreme degree, in order to become Negatively Harvested. This is why we work so hard to be as Negatively Polarized as we possibly can be, If we do not make a high enough percentage, we will miss out, and will end up with the majority "luke warm" percentage, that have to go through another Cycle in 3rd Density.

By attaining a Negative Harvest, we can still "Graduate" to 4th Density, only it will be a Negative Polarity planet. Not a great place to be. But, as I've stated previously, we (as a Group Soul) have incurred the natural Karmic restitution process that we must work off, for all the Negativity we have caused upon this planet. We will do this for a Cycle in our new 4th Density world, and then we will be freed to once again be the Glorious Being of Light that we truly are. We need a Negative Harvest, so that we can create our 4th Density Earth, and clear our Karmic Record.

Understand, that we HAVE to be Negative. That's what we were sent here to be. It is our contract, and it has always been to help you, by providing the "Catalyst" I spoke of earlier. Being Negative is very hard for us, not on a physical level, (the characters we play enjoy our roles, as we're programmed that way), but on a Spiritual level, it is hard. We surpassed the lowly negative vibrations eons ago. We are Light, and we are Love. It is a very hard thing for us to do Spiritually, to create all this Negativity, but we do it because we love you, and it is for your highest good, ultimately. You could say, that it is our Sacrifice that we have made, in order to be of Service to the One Infinite Creator, and to you, our Brothers and Sisters in the One.

Remember, we are all just acting out a grand old game here, where we agree to forget who we really are, that in the remembering, that we may find each other again, and know that we are One. That All of Life, is One.


ATS: If so, how do we become freemen?

HH: You will never be 'free', for as long as you are incarnating on this planet. The very nature of your being here, is indication of that. There is a reason why you are here, and 'here' is very likely not really where you think 'here' is. How do you become free? By working out where you are, and coming to an understanding, of why you are here. You are fast running out of time to do so, before the coming Harvest. Those that don't make it, will have to repeat the cycle.


ATS: OK, so your family and fellow elites might be as entrapped in the Earthly realm as we are, but why actively propagate and aid the forces of enslavement?

HH: Because that is the part we have been contracted to play, in this game. In order to "win" (or more accurately to be successful in) the Game, we must be as Negatively Polarized as possible. Service to Self in the extreme. Violence, War, Hatred, Greed, Control, Enslavement, Genocide, Torture, Moral Degradation, Prostitution, Drugs, all these things and more, they serve our purpose. In the Game. The difference between us and you, in the Game, is that we know that we are "playing". The less you know about the Game, and the less you remember that you're a player, the more "senseless" living becomes. In all these Negative things, we are providing you with tools. But you do not see it. It is not what we do, but how you react to it, that is important. We give you the tools. You have the Free Will choice how you will use them. You have to take responsibility. There is only One of Us here. Understand that, and you will understand the Game.especially on this last Q/A, I call attention to what I referred earlier as Primary Causes

--edit--

I guess is better to explain the primary causes and the group-karmic phenomena. The tech term to use here is karmic debt, to be objective in that matter. Follow an didatic example:

When someone do something increasing karma, he is responsible to that (as primary cause)
When other one is influenced by this Action, he is responsible to that (as Re-Action)
When another one ... ... he is responsible .. and so on ..

on this context, we found what is called by Butterfly Effect, and the Boomerang Effect.

Yes, boomerang is also appliable, because when the karmic wheel returns to the Creator (as primary cause), if he's an Cretin, he pretends it wasn't him as primary cause, just "Reacting" like everyone (unaware) else does. But of course he isn't unaware of this, but who knows that he knows It ? .. (an illuminati probably know)

after many turns on this (karmic) wheel, I ask how can these problems be fixed?

please, I'm not talking about a personal problem, but a society problem, may a problem of civilization as a whole.

to not show the problem without solution, with a bit of irony -( like the last chinese virus )- the ethics suggest to Stop the re-action wheel until isolating the primary cause.

remember (all roads lead to Rome)




They devised a plan to very carefully manipulate a few humans in positions of power into making an innocent mistake with terrible, cataclysmic repercussions. source of last quote (http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2012/01/31/never-call-them-archons/)

[TomKat]

Dr. Michael Stone explains psychopathy in children. They are predators, regardless of upbringing. The predilection for torturing animals often segues into sexual deviancy when they are adults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqnd-kUao

When it comes to the shadow, I think it's important to differentiate evil with the garden variety shadowy elite who acts on 'business as usual,' ideology. The business as usual type is no different than anybody with a stock portfolio who protests war but invests in Lougheed Martin and Raytheon. As far as actual hardcore evil goes, there would be a subset of actual psychopaths within the elite population, as these traits have survival value, if they are coupled with high intellect.

Sociopathy is cultural, to a large degree. Hyper capitalism segues into fascism, demands war to expand markets and creates a large population that worships success at the expense of more important values. They have embraced and acted on the shadow, without even being under duress.

Congenital psychopaths would, theoretically, not have a shadow. The shadow is built from the cognitive dissonance between primitive, selfish urges and culturally acceptable behaviour. It's about self-control, self-disownment, not just of one's own primitive urges but possibly urges psychically picked up from the lower astral. An Ayn Rand or a Hitler might consider a congenital psychopath to be the next evolution of humanity. Most people would consider them throwbacks.

[Richter]

Killing someone is a very complicated affair.

First of all you want to get away with it, otherwise it's a lose lose situation.

So instead of doing it yourself, you hire a professional.

And not a thug with the brain capacity of a shrimp, but a top notch, ice cold killer.

Those guys are expensive.

Do any of you people actually know a contract killer?

I thought so.


dude that's the plot of every crime noir movie ever made? what's your point?

Well dude, what I had in mind was a long and exciting story with a beginning a middle and an (open) end, but then something else came up and after that I thought to myself: 'Nah, we're not gonna do this.'

Those who know don't talk and those who talk... :handshake:

[AutumnW]

Dr. Michael Stone explains psychopathy in children. They are predators, regardless of upbringing. The predilection for torturing animals often segues into sexual deviancy when they are adults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnuqnd-kUao

When it comes to the shadow, I think it's important to differentiate evil with the garden variety shadowy elite who acts on 'business as usual,' ideology. The business as usual type is no different than anybody with a stock portfolio who protests war but invests in Lougheed Martin and Raytheon. As far as actual hardcore evil goes, there would be a subset of actual psychopaths within the elite population, as these traits have survival value, if they are coupled with high intellect.

Sociopathy is cultural, to a large degree. Hyper capitalism segues into fascism, demands war to expand markets and creates a large population that worships success at the expense of more important values. They have embraced and acted on the shadow, without even being under duress.



interesting video. thx Autumn.

so it would appear that the worst of the worst are born that way.

makes sense.

but even within that small slice of the pie, i do wonder if there is a spectrum that includes kids who can be reached emotionally. Dr Stone sounds doubtful.

it could be that we're getting too caught up on the word sociopath. the thread title is you are the illuminati, and within the illuminat there are quite a few sociopaths, clearly, but also just some despicable piece of sh!t people who may not technically qualify as being a sociopath but are nonetheless quite horrifying. if we're all not capable of being sociopaths (i'm still not entirely convinced of it quite yet, but i'm only about a quarter of the way thru Dennis' recommended video, in fairness), i think we can agree that under the right circumstances we're all capable of being ruthless hunks of sh!t. in which case the spirit of the thread still applies.

Psychopathy=fearlessness, high aggression, sensation seeking, no empathy, no remorse and most importantly zero anxiety. Born that way.
sociopathy =high aggression, sensation seeking, no empathy and zero remorse. Differentiating factor is nurture is more important than nature, accompanied by a capacity for anxiety.
Sociopaths likely more amenable to change, therapeutic intervention.

Most gangsters are sociopathic. When they bump someone off, they could potentially engage in torture if they are furious, but otherwise, not likely. I read this little piece once about one mobster describing another mobster and making this differentiation:

The sociopathic mobster bumps off his enemies in the spirit of revenge, business as usual or turf war. The psychopathic mobster enjoys killing for the sake of killing, is really into it in a big way. Possibly enjoying the suffering. This isn't the shadow, but rather sadism.

Nobody should be embracing anything that goes beyond a normal shadow into the realms of extreme pathologies. This is actually what psychopaths do. They not only embrace their pathology, they obsess, they cultivate, they ruminate and then they feel even more driven to act on those obsessions. So, it is really important to make that distinction. As for normal people trying to imagine, or get into the skin of a sociopath, a certain amount of thought and emotion and the use of mirror neurons is appropriate, but to go ba**'s out and go too deeply into may carry a bit of a risk. Hard to say. It is likely a good exercise to try to imagine how you would react or act under extreme duress, stress, conditions of brainwashing.

I think this is what you articulated quite well. Limited emotional exercise in that whole arena, does not blow off evil, it enhances empathy. Should we find common ground with Nazis? I think given examining our shadow we would find that we might act in a similar manner if we had gone through the Weimer experience, reparations, and official scapegoating of Jews by a charismatic leader.

I agree with Dennis that ruling elite are comprised largely of people who are profoundly arrogant, who diminish the importance of life outside of their own immediate circle --and that some of them will be pure psychopaths, because there is a hereditary factor there. Whether the majority of this small and powerful elite are actual sociopaths, according to the diagnostic criteria is a question. By their behavior...absolutely, they qualify.

Seeing those at the top of the food chain, in terms of piracy and gangsterism, is really helpful, I feel. It provides an easy working hypothesis of how the world really works.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Great thread, btw. Superb.

[AutumnW]

Quoting feature went weird on me

[AutumnW]

Congenital psychopaths would, theoretically, not have a shadow. The shadow is built from the cognitive dissonance between primitive, selfish urges and culturally acceptable behaviour. It's about self-control, self-disownment, not just of one's own primitive urges but possibly urges psychically picked up from the lower astral. An Ayn Rand or a Hitler might consider a congenital psychopath to be the next evolution of humanity. Most people would consider them throwbacks.

Great thought, TomKat. Very important to differentiate. And yes, as highly intelligent as a psychopath can be, there is something missing there. But, the fearless or 'warrior gene' which can be so toxic and horrible may have some application somewhere. Those with absolutely no fear can be groundbreakers. The problem, I figure, is, absent a major legitimate war, or highly dangerous exploration adventure, their same single minded zeal to triumph, in spite of tremendous odds reworks itself during peace time into something very ugly interpersonally and commercially. Look at the banking industry. They become interspecies predators.

If a pure psychopath enlists in the military under a highly corrupt sociopathic regime, they can go berserko and kill and torture with a certain amount of impunity. Special operations, Navy Seals. That is what they would be attracted to. Not saying that all of those people fit the description but they would over represented and rise to the top, within those branches of the military.

[AutumnW]

An example of a psychopath who became a platoon leader, loved killing, pardoned by the sociopath in power.

A Navy Seal platoon leader controversially cleared of war crimes by Donald Trump was a “toxic” character who was “OK with killing anything that moved”, according to fellow Iraq veterans who reported his conduct to military investigators.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallagher-trump-navy-seal-iraq

[RogeRio]

The shadow is built from the cognitive dissonance between primitive, selfish urges and culturally acceptable behaviour. It's about self-control, self-disownment, not just of one's own primitive urges but possibly urges psychically picked up from the lower astral.

first, I understand sociopathy can be out of topic, but as iluminatti (elite) influence be intrinsically sociopathic, I guess worth to be informed about.

second, under the eyes of conventional science one can not reach the core of this issue, and neither religion do it, because both (science and religion) are controlled by the unknown elites (and / or iluminattis), which take advantage because they know what people don't.

the Q/A information that follows only makes sense for those who already recognize or admit that there is an extraphysical reality around the intraphysical, both inhabited by consciences (as individuals)

---

the (tech) keyword here is Inter-Consciential Harassment, the knowledge involve psych and para-psych phenomena that request skills and bio-energetic training to deal with it.

What is interconsciential harassment?
is the unhealthy invasion or intrusion of ideas, emotions or energies from one consciousness into the other.

How can interconsciential harassment occur?
Such intrusion occurs in 4 different ways:

from an extraphysical consciousness to another extraphysical consciousness;
from an extraphysical consciousness to another intraphysical consciousness;
from an intraphysical consciousness to another also intraphysical consciousness;
and (rare) from an intraphysical consciousness to another extraphysical consciousness.

So there are extraphysical interconscious harassments and intraphysical interconscious (human) harassments.

Is interconsciential harassment very frequent?
is the most common disease or disorder in humans. It focuses more on our brains than the cavities in our teeth. And its unhealthy effects are much worse, the most prolonged and devastating of all the existing disorders and pathologies. The extraphysical harasser is like the shadow of the body: it changes places, and changes the way it presents itself, according to the environment (dimension) and the circumstantial time (moment of destination). Extraphysical harassment, unfortunately, potentiates organic diseases or specifically related to the organic body.

What characteristics do harassers have?
One of the characteristics of the intraphysical stalker is his negative emotional inversion. We know that we use less energy, less effort and less muscles to install a smile than to compose a frown or worried face.

How to prevent interconsciential harassment?
There are, for example, 2 main types of prophylaxis for interconsciential harassment:

Minimal = removal and extraphysical referral of the harasser from the harassed person;
Maximum = deep intraconsciential recycling of the harassed, eliminating self-harassment as the root way of (interconsciential) hetero-harassment.

--
ps - the "rare" intrusion could be an iluminatti, or an expert working aside this "elites".

[happyuk]

I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history and I had a little epiphany...

The suggestion was, when reading about, say, Nazi Germany, to view yourself as one of the perpetrators, and not as some hero. Most of us would like to believe we'd have been Oscar Schindler, but that's nonsense. 99% of us would have either been Nazis or we would have been complicit with the whole movement. We would have went along with it all, in other words, just like the German citizens did.

And the only way to prevent that from happening again is to realize that you are the Nazis. And only when you admit to yourself that you're just as capable of doing what the Nazis did - and you might even enjoy it! - can you then take the appropriate steps to ensure that doesn't happen again.

Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.

One who is willing to accept these truths is often mistaken for a bad guy. One who is unwilling to accept these truths is often mistaken for a nice guy. These are things we superficially perceive. But on a deeper level we know it's not true. It's why women are always more attracted to the "bad boy", even as they profess to genuinely want a "nice guy". It's because on a deeper level they know that the so called bad boy actually has more integrity than the so called nice guy; he has acknowledged his potential for danger and destruction with courage, and in doing so has opened up the possibility of taming it all. The "nice guy" can't even make the initial acknowledgement, and in response embraces the role of the beta male, politically correct, rom-com softy...because in the absence of courage it's the only game left for him to play.

At the moment we have a scourge of "nice guys" (and "nice girls") who aren't seeing clearly. Their deficiencies won't allow them to see that they are the illuminatti. They cloak their lack of courage and bravery in a veil of righteousness, which has manifested itself as this postmodern, PC culture we see today. They've manufactured a scenario in which noble males are "toxic", and weak males are noble. It's an elaborate scheme used to flip logic and morality on it's head.

You are the illuminatti. Make no mistake. Just like the Nazis and their complicit citizenship, the members of the generational ruling families existing today are only doing what 99% of all of you would be doing if you had the power and wealth they did. We have no idea what it's like to have all that power.It always makes me chuckle when some Joe Schmo makes some moral judgement about a celebrity who has been caught cheating on his wife...as if he would have resisted temptation had he been presented with the same opportunities. It's that whole bit, only on a much larger scale.

I think it's important for us to express our indignation with all this in mind.

That's a great insight Mike and I totally agree. Inside every good little boy is the spiteful brat. Another analogy might be the alcoholic that never admits he's an alcoholic and will therefore always be an alcoholic.

[Mike]

I should have included this in my opening post. Peterson describes the shadow in a just a few short minutes for anyone who might be interested.

Forcefulness, strength, and aggression are also shadow qualities, and when integrated can be useful and used in what we might call positive ways. So it's not all about the inner monster necessarily


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[Innocent Warrior]

Er, OK, well I’m just going to add this as a clarification to my post, otherwise it may have been misunderstood to be saying something quite different to what I meant.

My understanding of the shadow is it’s the parts of us that we’re not conscious of. Where I understand it to fit in here is that it’s necessary to become aware of our shadow in order to avoid becoming a monster due to the programmable nature of humans and the tragedies that happen throughout life. The nature of human beings is to be understood and respected in order to avoid losing our way, basically.

With the state I’m in my shadow has shifted to the forefront of my awareness, to follow what I mean watch the following video from about the seven minute mark, til the end.

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My psyche didn’t just split like that though, it was preceded by the final blow of a series of tragedies that broke me down (literally felt like my soul shattered). It happened at a time that coincided with having arrived at a clear and certain direction of where I want to take my life and what I want to do with it. I saw that everything I was as a personality would have to be discarded if I was to be successful with my dreams, which is all I care about for myself personally (no worldly desires other than a secure future for my son).

So instead of recovering like one might normally from a breakdown, I left who I was behind and have been building myself according to my true self since, hence the state Peterson described.

Who I was wasn’t even that bad, sure, I deal with the effects of the pain but I also believed in beautiful things. I liked who I was but those beautiful things were ignorant and foolish and simply not who I am, certainly not who I need to be to live my dream.

In this state the awareness has a spotlight on the shadow, the shadow is no longer silent, it’s obnoxiously loud, hence why I’m confronted by it so much. So to be clear, I’m not constantly confronted by a monster.

Good talk.

Nietzsche -

“One must pay dearly for immortality, one has to die several times while still alive.”

“I know of no better purpose than to perish in attempting the great and the impossible.”

“But the worst enemy you can meet will always be yourself; you lie in wait for yourself in caverns and forests. Lonely one, you are going the way to yourself! And your way goes past yourself, and past your seven devils! You will be a heretic to yourself and witch and soothsayer and fool and doubter and unholy one and villain. You must be ready to burn yourself in your own flame: how could you become new, if you had not first become ashes?”

“There are no beautiful surfaces without a terrible depth.”

“What does you conscience say? You should become who you are.”

[Dennis Leahy]

I somehow convinced myself that I knew the difference between "sociopath" and "psychopath", believing that a psychopath was a sociopath in action, not just in potential. I had a discussion with someone and used that differentiation, but decided to actually look up the definitions to make sure my understanding was correct. I was surprised that when I did look up the definitions, they were the same. I can't remember if I found a DSM IV classification online or not (if one of you has access to a DSM IV, please check), or if it was just Oxford, Webster dictionary definitions. Maybe it's just a notion that I picked up from the zeitgeist - no one was ever called a "psychopath" unless their actions against others were involved.

But, as several people have noted, getting too deep into semantics is not going to help with what I think is an excellent topic (or sub topics) from Mike's opening post: that it is quite obvious that average, normal, typical people can commit acts that fall under the umbrella of "evil", some of whom don't have to wrestle with empathy ("sociopaths"), and some who can be manipulated or frightened into committing these evil acts. I love Peterson's explanation of the sheathed sword rather than "meekness" being virtuous. I was surprised by Peterson's admission that (after 10 days of wrestling with the idea), he could see himself capable of a prolonged atrocity, beating someone over and over and over and over with a pipe - as opposed to admitting that he was capable of exploding into an act of violence (which I think we probably all are capable of.) Though he may believe that admitting this (especially to oneself) means that if he could then anyone else could too, is a logical fallacy. (Like almost all of you, I wasn't educated in "rhetoric"/debate using the Trivium, and though I recognize some logical fallacies, I always have to go look them up.) But what I see here is what is commonly referred to as "projecting." Conversely, I also only really have an example of one person, myself, that I know is not capable of prolonged atrocity (but capable of instantaneous violence, defensively.) So, I suppose that I am also projecting when I conclude that no, the average person is not capable of prolonged atrocity from their own volition.

Nearly 1000 US military bases, prisons, and torture centers globally are all fully staffed with people willing to be part of the US military machine that is the sword of the sociopathic (primarily corporate) "elite." Most are clerical, mechanics, supply handlers, etc. that are not actively bombing, drone missile attacking, napalming, dispersing biological weapons, etc. but even those who are filling the clearly offensive positions (I suspect) are not actual sociopaths but brainwashed (using fear psychology) into performing these actions. To me, that speaks more to the amazing success of nefarious elite - over decades, maybe even over centuries - to figure out the human mind and exploit it via brainwashing, to participate in the "elite" agenda.

The military - the enforcement department for the sociopathic elite - are of course not the only ones. There are many thousands of civilians working for nefarious corporations that couldn't even exist without environmental and human exploitation, and somehow these employees (and let's include stockholders) obviously have been frightened (at least financially) and brainwashed into acquiescing to evil. I have broken bread numerous times with some engineers that work at Lockheed, for example, that exhibit empathy (are not sociopaths) but either bought into the "bomb the democracy into those other guys" rah rah America rhetoric, or are now financially dependent on squelching their empathy and just doing their compartmentalized job to get the fat paycheck.

[RogeRio]

I somehow convinced myself that I knew the difference between "sociopath" and "psychopath", believing that a psychopath was a sociopath in action, not just in potential.

I'm not sure if its a great definition, but it help to think about:

psychopath feels neither fear nor remorse, and deny the obvious even facing facts.

sociopath feels fear and remorse, and don't deny the obvious when faced the facts.

when a sociopath change the socio-cultural environment, It can forget unethical behavior practiced in its place of origin not tolerated in the place of destination, So, don't deny the obvious. A psychopath always deny.

---

by perspective of interconsciential intrusion, a psychopath can be dominated by same individual influence, and a sociopath by different coletive influences.

both influenced (pycho & socio) need to evolve awareness by self-knowledge, because the lack of own awareness allow access of others smart hidden intruders, which some times can left "implants" on "target individuals".

---

I understand that there are many ways to describe the same kind of problem, mainly because it is a cognitive problem, difficult and complex to be observed.

[Innocent Warrior]

An excellent essay on the mechanics of the shadow and one’s dark side (12 min to read entire essay). It expands on what Mike wrote about in the OP and it includes how the mechanisms of the shadow can be exploited to achieve certain goals.

I think of mechanics as universal or cosmic law, laws that you don’t follow like rules because they can’t be broken anyway but can be applied in a myriad of ways for a wiser and more efficient way to traverse life (physical and spiritual).

The author is on the same path as myself, he calls it self-transcendence, for me thats a means to an end, the end being to apply the effect of that state to the human vehicle in a particular way, but I recognise in him the clarity achieved from shadow work when approached in this particular way. He lives it. :thumbsup:

*****

Carl Jung and the Shadow – The Mechanics of Your Dark Side

Have you ever looked yourself in the mirror so deeply that the sheer notion of what you like to call self, dissipated in a vertigo of angst and abstraction?

It is a strange feeling.

A feeling a bit arcane but also kind of familiar.

Something that seems wrong but also right.

Something we are almost incapable of describing, but we also, somehow, understand.

Something that we feel it can alter the structure of our paradigm in a very fundamental way.

You know, lately, I realized that after years of immersing myself in the core tenets of self-development and after identifying that major philosophical and psychological concepts have become central to my being, I have been coming closer to my ultimate personal goal that is self-transcendence.

Self-transcendence can mean a lot of things to all of us, but for me, the term has crystallized after I became enamored with how the duality between intellect and intuition can be manifested.

In my regard, intellect and intuition are not just two disparate terms. They are interconnected and intertwined. The one completes the other to the extent that the one becomes the evolution of the other.

Let me explain.

You know, when it comes to personal development and evolution, the major trait that characterizes exceptional individuals has always been their capacity to make strenuous acts seem effortless.

And this is something that has puzzled me a lot. I understand that the combination of intelligence and practice can lead to remarkable results, but I have also the feeling that we rarely ponder the nature of the state that leads to such results.

For instance, when you see that you reach a level of competence in a field and whatever you do occurs almost intuitively, you don’t feel the need to overanalyze how you reached that level. You are there and you enjoy the feeling of being there. Your past and incompetent self seems so distant and so foreign that you have no intention of bringing him or her back to the picture.

However, you know that he or she is still there. Lurking in some dark corners of your paradigm, acting like an anchor to states that were an essential part of your evolution as a person.

This past self has many forms. He or she becomes a shapeshifter in your personal journey that allows you to explore different forms of consciousness.

He or she gets inspired by various archetypes that are embedded in the human psyche throughout our history as the homo sapiens species and chooses to resonate with the ones that he or she considers more pertinent to your current mode of being.

It is through this integration of archetypes that you feel the first instances of intuition in your life. And it is through these instances of intuition that you can start acting in a more intelligent way.

Eventually, you start to explore all the different nuances of reality through acts of intelligence and you manage, through constant experimentation, to allow yourself to act intuitively via the periodical assimilation of the nuances.

This is the magic of the relationship between intellect and intuition.

A magic that can only be manifested when the past, present and future self decide to unite, repudiate the idea of collision and embrace the idea of synergy.

It is a very arduous endeavor, but also one that is very rewarding since it seems to be the only sure way to self-transcendence.

There can be no self-transcendence without the unity of all manifestations of your self. For self-transcendence is predicated upon your capacity to overcome the limits of the individual self in spiritual contemplation and realization.

In every story, there is a hero and a villain.

In your story, you are both.

All the bright aspects and all the dark aspects of your persona orchestrate the melody of your song.

A song that you need to hear first, before anyone else.

But in order to hear it, you have to learn to listen.

To listen not only to what you want but also to what you are afraid of.

Your fears and your darkness aren’t detached from you. Do not eschew them.

Face them, analyze them, internalize them.

The shadow is always there and it will always be.

But the shadow can look big or it can look small, depending on the angle from which the light caresses you.

What is the size of your shadow?

CARL JUNG AND THE SHADOW

Carl Gustav Jung was one of the most important psychologists of the previous century. He is also one of my biggest influencers since he is one of the few that have attempted to bridge the notions of psychology and spirituality in an effort to discover ways to transcend the human condition.

Jung has traveled a lot to India and immersed himself in different spiritual practices. His work was constantly evolving and, for me, it was this evolution that produced comprehensive analyses on concepts like the ego, the shadow, the archetypes, and the anima and animus.

These terms constitute the main pillars of Jungian Psychology and I truly believe that one needs to at least familiarize him or herself with what Jung wanted to reveal through his research.

Although I can discuss Jung’s ideas ad infinitum, in this essay I want to pay homage to a concept I consider paramount to one’s personal development journey. This is the concept of the shadow.

With regards to the shadow, Carl Jung has stated:

“The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.” — Carl Jung, Aion (1951)

The use of the word shadow wasn’t chosen unintentionally. Jung was always good at portraying complex ideas in a digestible visual manner. He used mental imagery in order to create anchors with concepts already familiar to human cognition.

The shadow is dark and elusive. It is impossible to catch, its size can alter depending on your position in space and it is ubiquitous whenever light is present.

Ergo, one can form a somewhat basic understanding of the concept without the need to delve into arcane terms.

Another crucial thing to ponder is that the shadow itself, due to the darkness that it forms and due to the distance that it creates from the physical body of a person, becomes something not so many people are eager to connect with.

And this is one of the major ideas associated with the Jungian shadow. Although we usually see the shadow as an integral part of our existence, most of us are willfully blind to this existence.

Our dark side is concealed or camouflaged in a painful attempt to protect an image that fits the narrative we decide to espouse. Through social conditioning, we come to construct a façade that can keep the substrate of our constructed identity stable so that we can keep feeling safe.

Safety, however, is ill-defined in that space we inhabit. How can one feel safe when there is so much unknown territory out there that can at any given point in time convulse the foundations of our fragile constitution?

A person is as free as their mind allows and if the mind creates barriers between the reality of the person and the reality of the rest of the world, delusion and neurosis could take over.

For instance, when you see people operate in a state of enforced ignorance that attempts to preserve a certain status quo, then the shadow can only grow bigger. Enforced ignorance entitles the shadow to take over since the individual is incapable of controlling it because he or she is not even aware of its existence. We can’t control what we don’t understand.

The 20th century is full of examples where a conglomeration of strong individual shadows has influenced the collective unconscious. All the wars, regime changes and instabilities in the fabric of society are a result of different religions, dogmatisms, and ideologies attempting to impose their beliefs and desires upon the populace by taking advantage of the burgeoning shadow element.

We couldn’t really prepare ourselves for such a combustible chain of events. Our proclivity towards adaptability by an adoption of an experimentation-oriented philosophy can lead to unavoidable calamities that, somehow, orient us towards what is best for our nature.

Psychology was still in its infancy and the myriad of prejudices and biases we still encounter amongst our fellow humans were considered, more or less, a norm. Very few of us could explore the darkest aspects of our psyche in order to achieve inner balance and mental freedom.

Most were just trapped in an existential crisis where they would ignore everything outside the light of consciousness. According to Wikipedia:

“Carl Jung explains that the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to psychological projection, in which a perceived personal inferiority is recognized as a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. Jung writes that if these projections remain hidden, ‘The projection-making factor (the Shadow archetype) then has a free hand and can realize its object—if it has one—or bring about some other situation characteristic of its power.’ These projections insulate and harm individuals by acting as a constantly thickening veil of illusion between the ego and the real world.”

Every aspect of your unconscious identity that cannot metamorphose into conscious judgment will perpetually impede your progress as an individual, for it is creating a fantastic world that cannot synchronize with the frequencies of the real world. In such a landscape, the real world, or at least whatever we can understand of it, becomes an egotistical battleground that leads to collision and madness.

Full essay HERE (https://thequintessentialmind.com/jung-shadow/).

[TomKat]

Congenital psychopaths would, theoretically, not have a shadow. The shadow is built from the cognitive dissonance between primitive, selfish urges and culturally acceptable behaviour. It's about self-control, self-disownment, not just of one's own primitive urges but possibly urges psychically picked up from the lower astral. An Ayn Rand or a Hitler might consider a congenital psychopath to be the next evolution of humanity. Most people would consider them throwbacks.

Great thought, TomKat. Very important to differentiate. And yes, as highly intelligent as a psychopath can be, there is something missing there. But, the fearless or 'warrior gene' which can be so toxic and horrible may have some application somewhere. Those with absolutely no fear can be groundbreakers. The problem, I figure, is, absent a major legitimate war, or highly dangerous exploration adventure, their same single minded zeal to triumph, in spite of tremendous odds reworks itself during peace time into something very ugly interpersonally and commercially. Look at the banking industry. They become interspecies predators.

If a pure psychopath enlists in the military under a highly corrupt sociopathic regime, they can go berserko and kill and torture with a certain amount of impunity. Special operations, Navy Seals. That is what they would be attracted to. Not saying that all of those people fit the description but they would over represented and rise to the top, within those branches of the military.

I doubt you'll find any psychopaths in the Seals. I knew a guy who tried to make the Seals. He said you have to be a genius and a saint. Now, as to their commanders, that's a different story.

[TomKat]

I somehow convinced myself that I knew the difference between "sociopath" and "psychopath", believing that a psychopath was a sociopath in action, not just in potential. I had a discussion with someone and used that differentiation, but decided to actually look up the definitions to make sure my understanding was correct. I was surprised that when I did look up the definitions, they were the same. I can't remember if I found a DSM IV classification online or not (if one of you has access to a DSM IV, please check), or if it was just Oxford, Webster dictionary definitions. Maybe it's just a notion that I picked up from the zeitgeist - no one was ever called a "psychopath" unless their actions against others were involved.


I'm not sure where I got it, some psychologist on youtube, probably, but I like the definition where psychopath is physiological (innate) and sociopath is cultural (acquired).

[Mac]

Not to make light of the subject, or to make light of the subject can't figure out which. I sometimes try reduce stuff like this to the ridiculous. As stated above we're all capable of certain behaviours. I think we are all guilty of the following more so up the ladder than us. "Everyone's stupid but me" when it gets scary "Everyone's wrong/stupid but we" . I think the older you get you can spot this fairly easy and its danger. Pretty obvious something amiss with some of the boys club that govern us and some of the behaviours mentioned will be rife among them, birds of a feather.
Edit: proof is always in the pudding harsh reality of life. Just contemplate the practices and sickness that we know of,stuff that's by the by for them. Both UK and US and probably elsewhere. Something drastically wrong obviously.

[Mike]

Yo Rach, I think what you described earlier, about your psyche splitting in 2, is known as the "witness". That's my understanding of it anyway. It's where a part of your mind splits off and sort of objectively and calmly observes the other parts, and sees them for that they are. I'm no authority, not in the least, but that's what it sounds like to me. Regardless of what it's called, you know far more about it than me thru experience, so I defer to you.

That article was amazing! And so synchronistic I can hardly believe it. The integration of archetypes. That stood out to me. And how one finds oneself in the "zone" when doing that. I've been integrating the f#ck out of the archetypes lately LOL, and I really feel like I'm in that zone. And the funny thing is, it just...happened

"how can one feel safe when there is so much unknown territory out there that at any given point in time can convulse the foundation of our very constitution?

my god, i've been droning on about this forever LOL. I've started threads on victimhood, the shadow, over sensitivity, the danger of "safe spaces", the plague of postmodernism, and so on.

the first step is to accept that we're not safe and we never will be, right? it's a total delusion. and when that delusion is vanquished, life can truly begin in earnest. and it all begins, i think, with the integration of the shadow.

enforced ignorance. yep. kids are taught to be victims these days, and then their programming takes over and they enforce it on themselves. what they don't realize, is that their inner monster/shadow is getting bigger and bigger, and that by delaying their acknowledgement of the shadow, the confrontation will only be that much more traumatic when they eventually do it. a very simple and maybe crude metaphor is that it's like avoiding the dentist when you have an abscess. the infection spreads, and what might have been a simple tooth extraction becomes a full blown jaw surgery.

i just started a thread on the archetypal underworld..the place of chaos we travel to when our lives are in turmoil. the underworld is sort of a metaphor for the shadow. it is implacable and can't be negotiated with. we will all have to travel there from time to time, and to resist only makes it worse. however, the pain and suffering we endure makes us stronger, and enhances our personal power. this is how we evolve and grow.

all movements that attempt to exploit the inability to engage the shadow are sinister, like the article points out. war, religion at its worse, etc. all elaborate excuses to justify moral weakness, people swallow it all because it's so much easier than doing the shadow work. today, it's postmodernism that's exploiting the reluctance of people to engage the shadow. all the silly meta narratives it invents are intended as distractions. but all that does is make the shadow grow larger. notice how so called victim groups are being manufactured daily, the numbers keep growing and growing...it's because they're all trying to outrun the shadow. and while they all hide in their "safe spaces" the shadow becomes ever more challenging.

so much to unpack in this article. thanks so much for sharing it. great stuff

[Ernie Nemeth]

We are imitators. We emulate our betters. In this society we all aspire to be little land moguls, small-time bankers, pretend investors, accountants. We play at those professions that our superiors have invented and that we have no way of ever affecting change.

Could you put $1,000,000,000 in a personal bank account without pangs of guilt? No. Yet we all play their games at our puny level like we are on the same footing or even have the same motivations. We are not playing the same game at all - only mimicking what they do but at levels that have no impact.

And now you would reduce us to the same motivations as well, with the same penchant for evil as these 1%ers.

I can tell you I am not a loser nor am I capable of what these evil sick perverted a-holes do. I am a loser in their world by choice, and that's not the same at all. Their laws are designed with me in mind - I am the enemy and have always been - and I have been ensnared by their bylaws more than I care to reveal, totaling well over $20,000! and costing me 4 cars, my professional license, my credit, my ability to drive, and finally even my hope for a better future. I cannot recover even if I wanted to.

So excuse me if I take offense at being told I am just like my tormentors. I am not.

Maybe you are, I don't know, but I would never accuse you of such. Nor start a thread with a blanket statement condemning everyone.

But then again you like to offend and you like to make fun of others with less social standing.

[Mike]

Ernie, this thread is kinda closed for grievances. If you want to complain about me, please do it in my new annoying thread, the aptly titled "A Stroke Of Genius (God I'm Good!)" Thanks.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Then I kinda take back what I said. quid pro quo