Trump administration will sign order temporarily banning ALL immigration to the US

[Praxis]

I hope you are all happy.

You are getting your way.

Looks like they are going to ban all immigration.

POTUS is going to ban immigration under the guise of COVID.

This will be something that starts under this pandemic but doesnt end like the patriot act.

We all know that we have a white nationalism problem and now it is being codified in law.

OH wait. it already was :

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/15/we-must-secure-border-and-build-wall-make-america-safe-again

For those of you who do not know. That is a Fourteen letter title which is a reference to
the fourteen words of the White Supremacist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

You do not belong in American any more than any other immigrant.

Unless the US federal Gov has systematically attacked you and stolen your land(and recent tried to disinherent your landhttps://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/unconscionable-trump-moves-to-take-away-from-mashpee-tribe-whose-casino-plans-irked-presidents-special-interest-friends/) then you are an immigrant in the past.

If you are from European descent and now dont want new immigrants. You are a hypocrite.

If you are an Irish person that doesnt want new immigrants you are a hypocrite.

If you are Italian and dont want immigrants, you are hypocrite.

If you are american and dont want immigrants then you are a hypocrite.

It is disgusting how much white nationalism is on this website and allowed.

----------------------

MOD ADD 04/25/2020 @ 01:31GMT - here's the Tweet from Donald Trump announcing the temporary ban - Tintin Q:

1253541647696179200



---------------------

[greybeard]

I always think of the Red Indians--They got a really bad deal.
Everyone apart from Red Indians is in America down to immigration.
Just be honest.
Im not against immigration, fresh blood is needed in every country.
That is what keeps a nation alive and thriving.
Not an open door though there has to a commitment to the countries' ethos, way of doing things, its laws, a respect.
Chris

[Ernie Nemeth]

who you callin' 'you people'

[TargeT]

who you callin' 'you people'

Exactly.... mirrors; mirrors everywhere, and those who shout loudest are blind to them.





It is disgusting how much white nationalism is on this website and allowed.

I think you're viewing things through a very skewed lens & why is it "white nationalism"....

also, don't you feel just a bit racist saying "white" nationalism? (or at the very least, MSM programmed since that is one of their goto sound bites?)


Your comments are disturbingly elitist sounding, like you feel that you someone how can reduce extremely complex topics to a few words, judge people for it; and feel superior.

Your statements when viewed objectively seem very bigoted.




This will be something that starts under this pandemic but doesnt end like the patriot act.

That ended?
:bowing:

[wondering]

Hi praxis, I know it’s not required, certainly an option, but I always wonder why members choose not to tell us where they live, as in your case. It might shed some light on your OP. wondering.

[Billy]

Praxis, who exactly is "You people" ?
I am not American, I have never been to America.
This Forum is not an American forum.

We have members from all around the world here on Avalon, all creeds, all colours, all cultures.

Please take your brush tarring anti American racist attitude somewhere else.

[Praxis]

Billy,
What is the name of this sub forum?

I am talking to the people who are anti immigrant. There are many on this forum, especially given the name of the part of the forum i posted in.

There are many people around the world that are anti immigrant, this is not just an american issue.

History is the story of constant migration. The modern nation state is exactly that, modern.

This is not brush tarring.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-suspend-immigration-executive-order-coronavirus

This is something that now directly affects me and my wife. This matters to me on a personal level now.

My family is now in danger and I may be forced to leave my home country because of racists in America.

If you are uncomfortable with what I am saying, then maybe you are a person that is anti human from other places.


I like how you call me a racist. How exactly is MY opinion racist? Billy, I had thought more of you

[DeDukshyn]

who you callin' 'you people'

I think maybe only Canadians and hockey fans are getting the secondary humour aspect in this? :) Or did that story get around?

[Savannah]

Yellow Nationalism

China Immigration – Eligibility Criteria for Permanent Residency. While anyone can visit China for a short duration of time, not everyone can get permanent residency in China. ... He or she should have been married to a Chinese citizen or an immigrant with permanent residency for at least 5 years.May 4, 2018

www.immigrationworld.com › china › china-immigration..

[Deborah (ahamkara)]

Praxis,
I am not your enemy. I am not a White Nationalist and I am not in support of racism. Immigration policies are often a reflection of political agendas, and it is my own feeling that the average "small person" in any country has little, if any, effect on these policies. You find anger, intolerance, racism and hatred anywhere you look for it. Any country, any race.

It has been my experience that this forum is open to a variety of opinions and beliefs. The stronger the argument, grounded in facts and logic, the more persuasive the position (in my view). Therefore, I am not threatened by those with racist, intolerant views, they seem childish and driven by immaturity- ineffective in swaying compassionate, critical thinkers.

It seems as if you are trying to provoke the people of Avalon Forum. It is helpful to take a look at your own projections and emotional state- especially if you begin to perceive the world as being against you.

[Tintin]

I hope you are all happy.

You are getting your way.

Looks like they are going to ban all immigration.

POTUS is going to ban immigration under the guise of COVID.

This will be something that starts under this pandemic but doesnt end like the patriot act.

We all know that we have a white nationalism problem and now it is being codified in law.

OH wait. it already was :

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/15/we-must-secure-border-and-build-wall-make-america-safe-again

For those of you who do not know. That is a Fourteen letter title which is a reference to
the fourteen words of the White Supremacist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

You do not belong in American any more than any other immigrant.

Unless the US federal Gov has systematically attacked you and stolen your land(and recent tried to disinherent your landhttps://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/unconscionable-trump-moves-to-take-away-from-mashpee-tribe-whose-casino-plans-irked-presidents-special-interest-friends/) then you are an immigrant in the past.

If you are from European descent and now dont want new immigrants. You are a hypocrite.

If you are an Irish person that doesnt want new immigrants you are a hypocrite.

If you are Italian and dont want immigrants, you are hypocrite.

If you are american and dont want immigrants then you are a hypocrite.

It is disgusting how much white nationalism is on this website and allowed.

"White nationalism" - what is that exactly? Define that statement and clearly and how, in your view, it relates in any way to what the forum aims are, and its mission

You may not have remembered this from when you joined - please reread it: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon-

Quick question, followed by one or two more areas that I'd appreciate you at least thinking more carefully about Praxis:

Why didn't you post your frustrations and concerns on the Racism (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100738-Racism) thread?

I assume the point of this brand new thread is to provoke, as opposed to inspire a grown up conversation, otherwise, what is the point of this brand new thread?

You need to define and clarify your terminology? Branding anybody who is fair skinned and claims a European descent and then by more than just implying, by actually outrightly stating that they are 'white nationalists' according to your list of criteria - or, kindly, ill advised and not very bright pronouncements - only serves to provoke ire and pushback, thereby fuelling any prejudices you do seem, on the surface, to be already encumbered by.

As Billy has rightly pointed out this is not an American forum; it is a forum, a community, that has zero prejudices and does invite intelligent, reasoned, thoughtful and well presented views from anyone anywhere in the world regardless of planet of origin, colour, creed, race, ethnicity, religious (or not) belief, or physical appearance (etc.).

Were it not for the fact that I am peculiarly thick skinned, I would otherwise be mortified at what appear to be, at least on the surface, most peculiar accusations and a wilful prejudice on your part.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Agreed, Tintin!

And by the way, love this. Most applicable :)


.. regardless of planet of origin...

[Praxis]

Why didn't you post your frustrations and concerns on the Racism (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100738-Racism) thread?

I assume the point of this brand new thread is to provoke, as opposed to inspire a grown up conversation, otherwise, what is the point of this brand new thread?

You are assuming incorrectly. I am posting an immigration topic: The president is signing an order to suspend ALL immigration in the country. We do not yet know what this will look like but given that they are not currently processing green cards, of people currently in the country legally(my wife) or of people outside the country seeking to be in America legally. Since this is the Immigration subforum and my topic is about immigration is particular. I would suggest that I am in the right place to post and discuss this issue.

I also take offence at you calling me a child here. Un called for.

I think it is interesting that you think it should be posted in the Racism thread. Why would say that? Is something about banning all immigration racist in some way?






You need to define and clarify your terminology? Branding anybody who is fair skinned and claims a European descent and then by more than just implying, by actually outrightly stating that they are 'white nationalists' according to your list of criteria - or, kindly, ill advised and not very bright pronouncements - only serves to provoke ire and pushback, thereby fuelling any prejudices you do seem, on the surface, to be already encumbered by.


I am very happy that you asked this. I would love to explain my terms and why I come to use them the way I do. Please be forewarned that there will be offensive language because I am about to discuss the past and how humans of a certain descent were treated by other humans who supposed themselves better than those aforementioned humans.

In order to properly understand what I am about to talk about and to not be labelled a racist like many have already accused me of I am going to have to give you some history of Haiti, in particular the Haitian revolution.

You may or may not know that Haiti used to be a colony of Anciene Regime France, which means the Bourbons who ruled the country for several hundred years before until the French revolution. I am sure you are aware of this event so i will not go into detail on that.

What you may not know is that one of the consequences of the revolution was big changes in the colonies of the french Kingdom. The long and short of it was that a class system that had developed based the color of skin and heritage of person determined the set of rights they were to be afforded under both the Bourbons and then under the Republic. When the revolution happened, this system was re evaluated but not as drastically as many had wanted. In the past and even into the republican France period, they had terms like "White" "Colored" "Black" "Mulato" "Quadrune" and these terms would describe to what degree your ancestry had black or slaves in them(they even went to like 1/364 extent to name the level of color you were). So the these classifications of people based on culturally defined categories was very repressive and arbitrary and primarily was in place because of economic necessity; It was very hard work to grow, harvest, and process sugar cane.

One of the most interesting parts of the Haitian revolution is how "the enemy of the my enemy" caused flip flops in circumstances as the turmoil of the French revolution devoured its children like Saturn. Envoys from one revolutionary government would be sent only to be overthrown and have new envoys sent to change the orders. As a result, freedom was granted to different groups and rescinded at different times. There were times when Coloreds and White would work together and then others where it was Coloreds and Blacks, only to have that devolve into civil war because the Coloreds were just replacing the old White in the same economic system. I very much recommend a Podcast Called Revolutions by Mike Duncan. He goes through this is excellent detail and it really made me appreciate the fight for liberty and equality that the people of Haiti went through.

So once you understand these color terms that are being applied to people of the Haitian revolution it starts to become easier to see that maybe the term WHITE can be aggressive to people and maybe it should not exist in the same way that COLORED or BLACK or MULATO should not exist. They are offensive and repressive abstractions that are set in place by force by the dominant IN GROUP and are a relic of past regimes.

This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.

I felt I need to spam and repeat that to avoid what I know many are going to say I am.

To destroy WHITE is only to destroy an idea, a concept of oppression.
It is removing the mental system of oppression that is built in to the term just like the slaves in Haiti throwing off the oppression of their WHITE masters( AGAIN this has nothing to do with the color of their skin or their french heritage). It does happen to overlap but they were terms of convenience that got codified(the census?) into the law by the repressive and oppressive regime of Bourbon and early republican france.

To truly illustrate this I will return to my OP

When they first arrived in America, many Irish and Italians were not considered to be WHITE. They experienced a lot of racism from the humans that were already in America who didnt like new humans coming.
So they found a way to make them the out group by calling them not WHITE enough. It was only later that Irish and Italian are now considered WHITE(this again has nothing to do with the color of your skin or of your ancestry, it happens to be what the group with the monopoly on force calls the IN GROUP right now).

Am I mis characterizing what Irish People and Italians People went through when they came to America? I do not feel so.


Now, I posted this because I am very upset that this Immigration thing is happening and the Stephen Miller and Trump are finally getting truly what they wanted: no more immigrants coming AT ALL. We dont quite know the specifics but given the past track record of immigration policies from this Admin, I dont expect it to be favorable to people like my wife.

I am quite unhappy with Tintin calling me both a racist and a child in this thread.

I expect after this post an apology from them. How dare you say I am a bigot and a racist that is incapable of having "an adult conversation"

EDIT**
I will admit the title of the thread was poorly chosen and I was very agitated . I would be happy to have it changed to : "POTUS will sign order banning ALL immigration to the US"

[Tintin]

Why didn't you post your frustrations and concerns on the Racism (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100738-Racism) thread?

I assume the point of this brand new thread is to provoke, as opposed to inspire a grown up conversation, otherwise, what is the point of this brand new thread?

You are assuming incorrectly. I am posting an immigration topic: The president is signing an order to suspend ALL immigration in the country. We do not yet know what this will look like but given that they are not currently processing green cards, of people currently in the country legally(my wife) or of people outside the country seeking to be in America legally. Since this is the Immigration subforum and my topic is about immigration is particular. I would suggest that I am in the right place to post and discuss this issue.

I also take offence at you calling me a child here. Un called for.

I think it is interesting that you think it should be posted in the Racism thread. Why would say that? Is something about banning all immigration racist in some way?






You need to define and clarify your terminology? Branding anybody who is fair skinned and claims a European descent and then by more than just implying, by actually outrightly stating that they are 'white nationalists' according to your list of criteria - or, kindly, ill advised and not very bright pronouncements - only serves to provoke ire and pushback, thereby fuelling any prejudices you do seem, on the surface, to be already encumbered by.


I am very happy that you asked this. I would love to explain my terms and why I come to use them the way I do. Please be forewarned that there will be offensive language because I am about to discuss the past and how humans of a certain descent were treated by other humans who supposed themselves better than those aforementioned humans.

In order to properly understand what I am about to talk about and to not be labelled a racist like many have already accused me of I am going to have to give you some history of Haiti, in particular the Haitian revolution.

You may or may not know that Haiti used to be a colony of Anciene Regime France, which means the Bourbons who ruled the country for several hundred years before until the French revolution. I am sure you are aware of this event so i will not go into detail on that.

What you may not know is that one of the consequences of the revolution was big changes in the colonies of the french Kingdom. The long and short of it was that a class system that had developed based the color of skin and heritage of person determined the set of rights they were to be afforded under both the Bourbons and then under the Republic. When the revolution happened, this system was re evaluated but not as drastically as many had wanted. In the past and even into the republican France period, they had terms like "White" "Colored" "Black" "Mulato" "Quadrune" and these terms would describe to what degree your ancestry had black or slaves in them(they even went to like 1/364 extent to name the level of color you were). So the these classifications of people based on culturally defined categories was very repressive and arbitrary and primarily was in place because of economic necessity; It was very hard work to grow, harvest, and process sugar cane.

One of the most interesting parts of the Haitian revolution is how "the enemy of the my enemy" caused flip flops in circumstances as the turmoil of the French revolution devoured its children like Saturn. Envoys from one revolutionary government would be sent only to be overthrown and have new envoys sent to change the orders. As a result, freedom was granted to different groups and rescinded at different times. There were times when Coloreds and White would work together and then others where it was Coloreds and Blacks, only to have that devolve into civil war because the Coloreds were just replacing the old White in the same economic system. I very much recommend a Podcast Called Revolutions by Mike Duncan. He goes through this is excellent detail and it really made me appreciate the fight for liberty and equality that the people of Haiti went through.

So once you understand these color terms that are being applied to people of the Haitian revolution it starts to become easier to see that maybe the term WHITE can be aggressive to people and maybe it should not exist in the same way that COLORED or BLACK or MULATO should not exist. They are offensive and repressive abstractions that are set in place by force by the dominant IN GROUP and are a relic of past regimes.

This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.
This DOES NOT mean that any human that is from European Descent should be killed or have their ways of living and cultural heritage destroyed.

I felt I need to spam and repeat that to avoid what I know many are going to say I am.

To destroy WHITE is only to destroy an idea, a concept of oppression.
It is removing the mental system of oppression that is built in to the term just like the slaves in Haiti throwing off the oppression of their WHITE masters( AGAIN this has nothing to do with the color of their skin or their french heritage). It does happen to overlap but they were terms of convenience that got codified(the census?) into the law by the repressive and oppressive regime of Bourbon and early republican france.

To truly illustrate this I will return to my OP

When they first arrived in America, many Irish and Italians were not considered to be WHITE. They experienced a lot of racism from the humans that were already in America who didnt like new humans coming.
So they found a way to make them the out group by calling them not WHITE enough. It was only later that Irish and Italian are now considered WHITE(this again has nothing to do with the color of your skin or of your ancestry, it happens to be what the group with the monopoly on force calls the IN GROUP right now).

Am I mis characterizing what Irish People and Italians People went through when they came to America? I do not feel so.


Now, I posted this because I am very upset that this Immigration thing is happening and the Stephen Miller and Trump are finally getting truly what they wanted: no more immigrants coming AT ALL. We dont quite know the specifics but given the past track record of immigration policies from this Admin, I dont expect it to be favorable to people like my wife.

I am quite unhappy with Tintin calling me both a racist and a child in this thread.

I expect after this post an apology from them. How dare you say I am a bigot and a racist that is incapable of having "an adult conversation"

EDIT**
I will admit the title of the thread was poorly chosen and I was very agitated . I would be happy to have it changed to : "POTUS will sign order banning ALL immigration to the US"

Well, no apologies from me are necessary here, because I said nothing of the sort.

You implied these things from what you yourself wrote :)

"I am unhappy with Tintin calling me both a racist and a child in this thread." - No I didn't. :) Re-read carefully what I wrote. You implied you were with what you yourself wrote.

"I also take offence at you calling me a child here. Un called for." - No, I didn't :) Re-read again carefully what I wrote. At no point did I say that.

"How dare you say I am a bigot and a racist that is incapable of having "an adult conversation" - No, I didn't :) Re-read again carefully what I wrote.

At no point did I say that although that was my inference from what you wrote.

And I wouldn't have been the only one who scratched their head and went: "What on earth is the dude talking about?!"

You didn't present your argument in a mature way. That's a very different thing entirely. Thanks - and I mean that - for making some effort to expand on your OP; that's, genuinely, a lot more helpful.

I made no assumptions; the content on the OP had racially agitated views which I thought would be best placed there for further discussion. Not a problem now that you have provided more information.

A gentle word in support: please be a little more careful with what you type in the heat of the moment. Otherwise, what you've expanded upon here from the 'Haitian' viewpoint is in fact very interesting indeed.

I will take up your suggestion for a thread title renaming - I think that is best, and more reflective of what you were trying to start a discussion about.

I'll change it to: "Trump administration will sign order temporarily banning ALL immigration to the US." as I believe this to be the case.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Agreed, Tintin!

And by the way, love this. Most applicable :)


.. regardless of planet of origin...

My pleasure :) :highfive:

[Constance]

I hope you are all happy.

You are getting your way...


It is disgusting how much white nationalism is on this website and allowed...

What if I am just you in another form Praxis?

[TomKat]

I doubt Trump is any more of a racist than Biden. In the 2016 race the Dems took umbrage at Trump's refusal to speak politically correctly, so they labelled him a racist. Then they took umbrage at his stand on immigration to label him a racist. He refused to be trapped into defending their mischaracterisation of himself, so they labelled him a racist for not denying it. His racist identity fully established in their own minds, they went on to label him a fascist.

Now there are Dems running around with face masks shaming people into fearful compliance. And some, such as Biden, call for military on the streets. While others seek to prolong the "lockdown" indefinitely. While Trump advocates lifting it to get the economy going and the unemployed back to work. And for that unwillingness to act fascistically, he is labelled, of course, a fascist. By the real fascists. It's called doublespeak. 1984. Read the book.

[T Smith]

Hello Praxis,

I'm going to come at this from a different angle, for what it's worth. I agree with TomKat; this executive order (whether one condemns or condones) has nothing to do with racism, per se, or the current administration's disdain for people of color. That may be hard to see if this policy directly affects your personal circumstances; you may be too close to see things objectively. The racism card ascribed to Trump is fully contrived by Trump's opposition and played as a political tactic, over and over, without any serious underlying substance.

That said, let's assume for sake of argument Trump's executive order is a pretext for some anti-immigration ulterior motive. Would that motive be because the POTUS is a White Nationalist and racist? No. That's just not plausible or consistent with what's going on. That narrative is consistent with what Trump's political enemies and the Ministry of Truth want you to believe.

I'm not saying any of us have to like it, but the anti-immigration executive order has nothing to do with racism. If one doesn't believe the executive order on its face is to abate the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic, then it's all about politics. Skin color, culture, or nationality have nothing to do with it; it has everything to do with blocking peoples from entering a voting bloc that would oppose Trump in the 2020 election and his populist/anti-socialist policies. So in a sense this is still an example of prejudice, but a prejudice against political preference, not a prejudice against race.

I hope you don't infer from my comments that I am condoning any of this. Politics can be just as ugly and disgusting as racism. But let's understand what's really going on here. Both parties are using race and manipulating groups of people to serve their political agendas; if Republicans block immigration it is because immigrating groups do not vote Republican, they vote Democrat; as soon as the Rand Corporation or any other demographic authority states otherwise you will see the "racist card" radically shift. Until then, and for the time being, Democrats pretend to have the moral high ground and offer open arms to immigrating peoples (only to stab minorities in the back with their policies) because this demographic votes Democratic.

My two cents. I hope everything works out for you and your wife and the immigration ban doesn't complicate your circumstances.

[AutumnW]

Actually, this forum is becoming more and more a platform for alt right. I don't blame them for being angry, if they are in the U.S. but their anger is being misdirected Many many excellent members have left due to this. I have mixed opinions about the entirety of Praxis' sentiments, but sympathize with where they are coming from. I am astonished at the over all slant here supported by many members.

For those who can't see it. Step back from the forum for a while and then come back and read it. It's become a bit ugly.

[onawah]

Right and Left just don't mean what they used to mean.Trump may be using the plandemic as another means of controlling the borders, but there was plenty of reason for better policing of the borders before that.
Just consider this one article from Judicial Watch, a very credible source, among many about how the borders have been overrun with criminal activity:
APRIL 14, 2020
JUDICIAL WATCH
Mexican Drug Tunnel Exits in U.S. Warehouse Run by Illegal Aliens Near CBP Crossing
https://www.judicialwatch.org/corruption-chronicles/mexican-drug-tunnel-exits-in-u-s-warehouse-run-by-illegal-aliens-near-cbp-crossing/?utm_source=deployer&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=tipsheet&utm_term=members&utm_content=20200420155006
"Mexican drug smugglers are really getting bold. A cross-border tunnel recently discovered by U.S. authorities exits in a San Diego warehouse right next to a busy Customs and Border Protection (CBP) port of entry. It gets better. The southern California warehouse is manned by Illegal immigrants even though it is situated just a few hundred yards from a hectic border crossing staffed with federal agents around the clock.

A Mexican national with legal residency has been arrested and charged in connection to the operation, federal prosecutors announced this month. His name is Rogelio Flores Guzman and he helped construct the tunnel, which runs 2,000 feet from a Tijuana warehouse to the south San Diego depot. The U.S. has charged the 31-year-old with trafficking fentanyl, methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine and marijuana via a subterranean tunnel stretching from Mexico to a warehouse in Otay Mesa. When authorities entered the tunnel, they found around 575 packages of drugs worth nearly $30 million, according to a bulletin issued by the Department of Justice (DOJ). This sets a record because it marks the first time that five different types of drugs are found in a tunnel, according to the feds.

Agents from a special tunnel task force confiscated 394 packages containing 585 kilograms of cocaine; 133 packages containing 1,355 kilograms of marijuana; 40 packages containing 39.12 kilograms of methamphetamine; Seven packages containing 7.74 kilograms of heroin and one package containing 1.1 kilograms of fentanyl. “Cross-border tunnels always spark fascination, but in reality they are a very dangerous means for major drug dealers to move large quantities of narcotics with impunity until we intervene,” said the federal prosecutor in charge of the case, U.S. Attorney Robert Brewer. “We have seized this tunnel, confiscated almost $30 million in drugs and now we’ve charged one of the alleged crew members.”

Guzman moved around quite a bit, prosecutors say. He lived in the southern California city of Victorville in San Bernardino County as well as Las Vegas and Otay Mesa. He was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport last week boarding a plane to Guadalajara, Mexico. At his arraignment via video due to the COVID-19 crisis the judge ordered Guzman held without bail after the government argued that he was a flight risk. His next court appearances are scheduled for April 23 and May 7. Guzman faces up to life in prison. “Despite the challenges we all face as we endure this pandemic, our federal agents and officers who make up the San Diego Tunnel Task Force, working alongside the U.S Attorney’s Office and local law enforcement, continue to investigate and serve justice to those involved with the construction and operation of this tunnel,” said Cardell T. Morant, acting Special Agent in Charge of Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) San Diego.

Agents involved in the operation estimate that the tunnel is several months old so there is no telling the number of drugs that made it through before it got shut down. The tunnel is sophisticated with reinforced walls, ventilation, lighting and an underground rail system to facilitate transporting goods. When federal agents conducted surveillance around the middle of March, they spotted Guzman leaving the Otay Mesa warehouse in a medium sized box truck with a separate cargo area accessible only from the back of the vehicle. In the truck were 10 people who the feds reveal “later self-identified as Mexican nationals who did not legally enter the United States.” The illegal immigrants evidently worked at the warehouse that received drug cargo from Tijuana.

There was a significant increase in Mexican smuggling tunnels after President Donald Trump increased border security in 2017. One southern California news conglomerate reported that criminal organizations in Mexico were improving the tunnels they use to smuggle people and drugs under Trump’s border fence, making them smaller and maintaining a high level of sophistication that includes railways and electricity. “In San Diego, tunnels are usually sophisticated partly because of the highly organized criminal organization operating in Baja California – the Sinaloa Cartel – as well as the characteristics of Otay Mesa, a neighborhood that exists on both sides of the border,” the article states. “In the U.S. and in Mexico, Otay Mesa is crowded with warehouses, providing numerous spaces to hide tunnel entry and exit points.” Operating one right next to a U.S. border crossing packed with federal agents is quite brazen."
https://www.judicialwatch.org/corruption-chronicles/mexican-drug-tunnel-exits-in-u-s-warehouse-run-by-illegal-aliens-near-cbp-crossing/?utm_source=deployer&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=tipsheet&utm_term=members&utm_content=20200420155006

[AutumnW]

What does legal immigration have to do with tunneling Narcos, Onawah? I know it isn't intentional, on your part, but when your response to a post about suspending legal immigration indefinitely is about drug smuggling Mexicans, it supports Praxis' original point about racism. Mexicans are lovely people.

[Matthew]

Actually, this forum is becoming more and more a platform for alt right. I don't blame them for being angry, if they are in the U.S. but their anger is being misdirected Many many excellent members have left due to this. I have mixed opinions about the entirety of Praxis' sentiments, but sympathize with where they are coming from. I am astonished at the over all slant here supported by many members.

For those who can't see it. Step back from the forum for a while and then come back and read it. It's become a bit ugly.

Could you define what you mean by alt-right? From my point of view 'groypers', who follow Nick Fuentes, are what I might personally call alt-right, their goal: target the "fake right". But in and around poorly worded posts, the term alt-right gets banded around and applied liberally to liberals too now days. Thank you :)

[Kamikaze]

delete it all.

[Metaphor]

As from personal observation, I can second Kamikazes post. The problems we have here in Sweden you see, are not about race. Its about culture. When cultures clash the resentment one might feel towards another is not about skin colour, its about difference in values and ideas. I do think that its different in the states though since its a country that was built on immigration and has it in its foundation. Our countries are very different though we have a common enemy. All countries and all free humans have the same enemy, its just a shame that just a handful are aware of the fact.
The true racists of this world are judgmental people that are very afraid and seek to belong to a group and they find skin colour to be the divider between "us and them". You can find the same people everywhere labelling things in "us and them" other ways, like political religious or between the sexes, all are of course wrong and mislead blinded by their fear.
I´m actually very tired of this game. Personally I have always seen interaction as a "you and me" thing. If a person is a douchebag I dont excuse it because of gender or skin coulour. I know this is herecy in the leftist/marxistcamp, and I suffer greatly from it. Their invasive propaganda has made even hardcore freethinking people like me to activate an innner censor while speaking my mind. Trying to heal from it.

As a final note to the Original poster of this thread Id like to extend my condoleances. You suffer from the politics and actions of our leaders. Trust me, you are not alone. There are like billions of others there with you. Not to diminish what you experience and the dangers you and loved ones might face. I wish you the best of luck i truly do. I think many of us will experience differing kinds of oppression and preassure very soon, of great magnitude. But we will make it through, and come out like diamonds shaped from the pressure of the rocks that have been grinding us to perfection, shining bright and true.

[T Smith]

Actually, this forum is becoming more and more a platform for alt right.

Hi Autumn,

I'm not sure I would agree with this... with the exception of one members-only thread, which one might loosely call alt-right (but even that would be a stretch) what does this term even mean? Richard Spencer, a self-proclaimed White Nationalist coined the term; I'm assuming you're not using the term with the same brush stroke as he did?

The tenor I see is on this forum on the topic of politics is a critical examination, with intelligent opinion and commentary, of a very divisive and polarizing climate. These are complicated issues and charged topics and we are amid a unique political milieu. So I do understand how some comments and observations may be misinterpreted.

If you are referring to my post above I would emphatically assure you and others that my comments are not from an alt-right perspective, so far as I understand the term anyway.

As an objective observer, like a photographer or reporter, I was pointing out to Praxis the politics of the ban as I understand it (that is, if we assume the executive order was not motivated to stop COVID-19, which the topic of the thread implies). I was also careful to point out that taking a "snap shot" as a historian might shouldn't imply the photographer is "supporting" the contents of her/his photograph. I'm merely trying to understand it, and in so doing, pass on my understanding to Praxis and others.

The issue of closing the boarder is a complicated political issue and if we are really concerned with getting at the truth, which I believe is the ultimate objective of this platform--if we truly want to understand the world we're living in and not the one propagandists promoting division want us to understand, I would humbly submit we need to avoid oversimplifying our understanding down to two dimensions. Of course this is just my perspective and understanding of things. I welcome any counter perspectives if it might help me achieve resolution.

My main point to Praxis was to point out why the ban does not render down to race or to identity politics. That methodology of understanding the world is convenient for the agenda of identity politics, but inconvenient to the truth. If this observation categorizes me as alt-right than I guess I'll own it (uncomfortably); I firmly believe it.

The problem I see with discussions like this is we can no longer comment on political reality objectively without labels and identity politics watering down our understanding of what the hell is going on in the world. Perhaps that is by design and why there is so much lack of real understanding and division and anger between people.

Kind Regards,
T Smith

[Kamikaze]

delete it all.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I would suspect this ban only affects people currently applying for visas to travel to and stay in the US, rather than those who are already in the US, so I would assume Praxis (and hope) you and your family are safe.

He said it would only be a temporary ban - you need to hold him to that. He couldn't possibly get away with an indefinite ban, that would be political suicide. I agree with T Smith, I don't think this is motivated by race, that doesn't stack up at all. Trump gets flamed automatically and immediately for whatever he says and does. One minute he's criticised for implementing a travel ban to China, they called it 'xenophobic'. Next he's criticised by the same people for not acting sooner. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Believe me I have plenty of doubts and suspicions, I'm not his biggest fan by any means, particularly of his rhetoric. But just because I don't think he's a white supremacist (by any stretch) or the anti-christ, I risk being labelled 'alt-right'. Not nice and not fair.

If anything, this following legislation might have had something to do with Trump's decision. There is after all a feared 'second wave' of this virus to think about.

"Whenever the Surgeon General determines that by reason of the existence of any communicable disease in a foreign country there is serious danger of the introduction of such disease into the United States, and that this danger is so increased by the introduction of persons or property from such country that a suspension of the right to introduce such persons and property is required in the interest of the public health, the Surgeon General, in accordance with regulations approved by the President, shall have the power to prohibit, in whole or in part, the introduction of persons and property from such countries or places as he shall designate in order to avert such danger, and for such period of time as he may deem necessary for such purpose."

(July 1, 1944, ch. 373, title III, § 362, 58 Stat. 704.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/265

[TomKat]

Actually, this forum is becoming more and more a platform for alt right. I don't blame them for being angry, if they are in the U.S. but their anger is being misdirected Many many excellent members have left due to this. I have mixed opinions about the entirety of Praxis' sentiments, but sympathize with where they are coming from. I am astonished at the over all slant here supported by many members.

For those who can't see it. Step back from the forum for a while and then come back and read it. It's become a bit ugly.

Two pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!

[Frank V]

Actually, this forum is becoming more and more a platform for alt right. I don't blame them for being angry, if they are in the U.S. but their anger is being misdirected Many many excellent members have left due to this. I have mixed opinions about the entirety of Praxis' sentiments, but sympathize with where they are coming from. I am astonished at the over all slant here supported by many members.

For those who can't see it. Step back from the forum for a while and then come back and read it. It's become a bit ugly.

Two pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!


I don't think that word means what you think it means.




Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)




Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

[...]


Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)

[TargeT]

The problem I see with discussions like this is we can no longer comment on political reality objectively without labels and identity politics watering down our understanding of what the hell is going on in the world. Perhaps that is by design and why there is so much lack of real understanding and division and anger between people.

Kind Regards,
T Smith

Seems to me identity politics and intersectionality are both being strangled by reality (as they should be) currently.

and yes, it does seem by design to me, or at least encouraged by design.





Two pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!


I don't think that word means what you think it means.




Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)




Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

[...]


Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)


Socialism is the over arching philosophy, Communism is the far LEFT of Socialism, Fascism is the far RIGHT of Socialism.

They are both authoritarian heavy on government branches of the same philosophy (IE, both do discourage free speech and would attempt to block ideas that counter their own, much like Tom is referring to (IMO)).

[Frank V]

Two pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!


I don't think that word means what you think it means.




Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)




Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

[...]


Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)


Socialism is the over arching philosophy, Communism is the far LEFT of Socialism, Fascism is the far RIGHT of Socialism.

They are both authoritarian heavy on government branches of the same philosophy (IE, both do discourage free speech and would attempt to block ideas that counter their own, much like Tom is referring to (IMO)).


If I could hand out an award for the most ingeniously concocted political nonsense I had ever heard, I'd be giving it to you right now. :first:

;)

[T Smith]

The problem is fascism means many different things to many people, including historians and political scientists. This is another charged term we bandy about without drilling down to agree on a precise meaning. Even the standard wikipedia definition is vague and wide in scope and without consensus.

I tend to understand fascism how Mussolini did--who incidently coined and invented the term (and arguably) the ideology itself. According to Mussolini, fascism is the merger or marriage between State and corporate power. (https://freepress.org/article/case-anybody-hasn’t-noticed-corporations-rule-world-they-fit-mussolini’s-definition-fascist)

I am aware of the various academic definitions of fascism, which tends to focus on the ideology of fascist regimes instead of the nature of the power structure itself.

But so as far as I understand it, fascists can come from the left or right or anywhere in-between as long as the underlying power structure is some form of corporatism enforced by State, or visa versa.

[TargeT]

Looks like this was all just a political maneuver?

JjBuLpdjLwo



If I could hand out an award for the most ingeniously concocted political nonsense I had ever heard, I'd be giving it to you right now. :first:

;)

Thank you, I but stand on the shoulders of giants.


Statism in its fascist form “attempts to secure economic growth and prosperity by fusing a ‘partnership’ between business and the State, absorbing business into the State in this process.” While communism “[when] faced with existing institutions that threaten the power of the state – be they corporations, churches, the family, tradition – the Communist impulse is by and large to abolish them, while the fascist impulse is by and large to absorb them.”[1] (https://finance.townhall.com/columnists/jimhuntzinger/2018/11/21/fascism-is-socialism-heres-the-proof-n2536334) Essentially, “fascism is a form of hyper-interventionism amounting to socialism.”[2] (https://finance.townhall.com/columnists/jimhuntzinger/2018/11/21/fascism-is-socialism-heres-the-proof-n2536334)

In fact, economist Ludwig von Mises in Human Action discusses that there is not much difference between fascism and socialism,[3] (https://finance.townhall.com/columnists/jimhuntzinger/2018/11/21/fascism-is-socialism-heres-the-proof-n2536334) only “trivial technicality,” as Daniel James Sanchez describes it. Sanchez summaries Mises distinction:

The only way in which “socialism of the Russian or Lenin pattern” (as Mises termed the more familiar variant of socialism) is distinct from the Zwangswirtschaft [which is basically German for “compulsory economy”] is in the nonessential fact it has no such veneer of faux-private ownership. Its socialism is simply more overt.

Another way of stating this is as follows. In the populist propaganda of Bolshevism, under “socialism of the Russian or Lenin pattern the people ostensibly own the state, and the state in turn owns the means of production. While, under the sham capitalism of Nazism and “socialism of the German or Hindenburg pattern,” the people ostensibly own the means of production, but the state in turn owns the people.

Thus these occupants of different political “poles” really occupy the same ground and are only separated by a trivial technically: the existence or absence of a sham market. Each variant of socialism does indeed have its own distinctive path. But it has nothing to do with “left vs. right,” “poor vs. rich,” or “weak vs. powerful.” Rather, it is a matter of “bureaucratization vs. interventionism.” Bureaucratization, by forthrightly gobbling up the market bite by bite, leads to the overt socialism of the Russian or Lenin pattern. Interventionism, by subtly crippling the market and replacing it incrementally with a network of government diktats, leads to the sham market of socialism of the German or Hindenburg pattern.
https://finance.townhall.com/columnists/jimhuntzinger/2018/11/21/fascism-is-socialism-heres-the-proof-n2536334

[Agape]

Agreed, Tintin!

And by the way, love this. Most applicable :)


.. regardless of planet of origin...

Thank you as well 🙏🦢🙏


The suspension is temporary( 2 months) as stated in current news releases and concerns only those outside of the US seeking permanent residency in US.


It does not affect other visa protocols, so far.

I suppose that under the circumstances of current epidemics the state apparatus is humanly overwhelmed so who would be so insentient to wish to burden it more.

Makes big headlines but not a catastrophy. Unless you’re Mexican of course.

[onawah]

I would have thought the point would be obvious-- that the situation on the borders has gotten so out of control with criminal activity of all kinds that focus needs to be concentrated on that, rather than legal immigration, until things are more under control.
Some Mexicans, like all other peoples, are lovely and some aren't.
Where did I say otherwise?
I was simply illustrating my point with an example.

What does legal immigration have to do with tunneling Narcos, Onawah? I know it isn't intentional, on your part, but when your response to a post about suspending legal immigration indefinitely is about drug smuggling Mexicans, it supports Praxis' original point about racism. Mexicans are lovely people.

[Savannah]

What does legal immigration have to do with tunneling Narcos, Onawah? I know it isn't intentional, on your part, but when your response to a post about suspending legal immigration indefinitely is about drug smuggling Mexicans, it supports Praxis' original point about racism. Mexicans are lovely people.

It applies to this thread because it again indicates Trumps motivation is to stop the the Deep State (right) sources of funding from drugs (just one source) . Partial closing of the boarders is politically motivated as T Smith points out. All countries have immigration polices and without them it leaves countries vulnerable. These are basic principles of politics and how the Matrix works.

[Denise/Dizi]

Hello Praxis,

I have to agree with Target, you are fully unaware of America military, and the way that they do things, and the very good reasons for why this is a good thing right now.. As the president is the "commander in chief..., and has declared war" It is a very wise thing to do.. We are at war.. As such? Securing your borders, Banning others from coming in, is a tactical move, not a personal one. I think you are lacking a bigger picture... Are you not aware that we are now "Live" when coming near Iranian forces? Meaning we have been authorizes to fire at will, anyone trying hostile maneuvers against American Navy personnel?

If you look at other things happening around you in the world, and try very hard to put them into a larger picture. The best way to fight an enemy without even touching them, is to starve them out. We are no longer needing oil, who does this affect? CHINA and IRAN... Why? Because China buys oil from Iran, and then refines it fuel and ships it out to others.. We are now in talks with Russia Saudia Arabia, and Mexico of all people, to keep the oil prices low.. Mexico is not our enemy here.. We know it, they know it.. With each new culture we have different ways of doing things and that alone would alter how we each individually see a topic. Even within our own countries regionally..

We're breaking the cartels up.. COLLECTIVELY... We're breaking up corrupt organizations.. And we are working with Saudi Arabia to do this as well.. Right now isn't the time to be building new housing for immigrants.. And we have been hit hard with fires reducing our already dwindling supplies of homes for Americans.. We're just asking people to stay where they are until we are ready to take them in, and have a place for them to actually go.. And the ability to care for them. Otherwise you collapse a very refined system meant to accommodate everyone. Overwhelm it, no one benefits.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/13/will-new-oil-pact-open-broader-dialogue-between-trump-putin/

And we are also breaking up the corrupted gangs, and medical establishments that engage in .. Organ harvesting, drug trafficking, and the trafficking of people.... In fact, we have been doing sting operations for quite some time in many other nations INCLUDING working with Mexico on such issues. I am not saying Mexico is to blame for all the human trafficking, it happens everywhere and there must be a market for it here, or they wouldn't bring people here, so our hands are just as dirty. But this isn't about me or you, it's whats best for EVERYONE in my opinion. For today at least.

We're at war here my friend.. Now isn't the time to pull a "hate" card, when this country is truly trying to "right" some very bad things..

You hit the American borders as your topic of conversation,, so let me ask you.. Are you aware that most people trafficked into America could be HELPED, if forced to try to make their way through a border crossing? They could possibly make it back home, if the traffickers are caught by trained agents. But when they're carried through the desert at night?? That chance is gone.. And the only hope they have is that their captor makes a mistake..

When asked? Many people that have been rescued said they WISHED there was a forced passage through into America, as that would have given them one last opportunity to be returned to their families.

Not only that, Many of these individuals are never given proper medical care, (As they may alert someone to their situation), and as such, they can and do have the capability to use these individuals as catalysts for things such as the pandemic we are facing now..

Those trafficked in America have little to no chance of being helped, as the system is designed to punish those that are here illegally, rather than help them.. So they don't look for help once they're here... And they're making note of that.. And trying to fix it.

While I hesitate to call your post racist? I will suggest that it is being made from a perspective of a narrow band of prception about the real reasons we are putting up border walls. And cultures, not race define those beliefs.. There are many reasons they're doing it.. And I am sure many could find reasons not to..

I don't know if you're aware, but we're facing a pandemic/war here. It isn't the time to be guessing on supply chains, transportation, etc. as such it is paramount they stop new traffic to get the true numbers of things they need.

People need to get out of the fear porn, and truly educate themselves to the nature of the environment that we are living in. And our neighbors. And I hope that you do begin to broaden your ideas of what you think is going on. Listening to one side, well that isn't helping anyone.

What I do is look at a topic then actively look for a rebuttal.. Why it could be seen as the opposite. We are easily misled.. One headlines works for most folks...

"Trump is halting immigration, a threat to our Constitutional rights".. That is enough to turn a massive amount of the population AGAINST someone rather quickly. But when you begin to dig deeper and you see why it is happening.. It sure makes much more sense, and you begin to shun the sensationalism.

This action also forces Mexico to deal with the problem as well.. And it keeps the traffickers in one place.. Easier to find.... And it makes it a bit easier to battle, as now they can focus on those people trafficking others, in one area.. And the customers on his end... .Rather than trying to catch them one at a time.. It is much larger than just one issue..

But you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you for expressing it.

I want to add.. About populations and heritage.. (I won 't say race)...

The entire planet has been immigrating and shifting since the beginning of time.. As you pointed out Praxis.... We (Americans) came here and took land from Natives, etc... I did not do that.. I am a result of that... ALL nations partook in that, as you so eloquently pointed out....As they're all represented here.. And those native's were in many cases more hostile than those coming here...

There was black slavery in America until we all rose up and said "No More".. The indian nations, while given the short end of the stick in past times, have integrated into our societies, yet most still want special rights. "Special laws for them.. Based upon their heritage".. Special lands, Special casinos.. And America concedes out of fear of being labeled insensitive....

How many generations are going to be punished for slavery, and wars between settlers and indians? Carrying the hatred from our forefathers serves us no useful purpose. This is what we have now.. We need to stop asking for "Reparations" for things we never even lived through, and work together as a whole.. Pointing fingers does nothing but create more animosity. I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU that your wife was able to immigrate here, rather than be carried here as a slave in the night.. From ANY other country..

Pointing a finger at me and telling me that I am somehow to blame for this? Serves no useful purpose. I am part Irish and part Cherokee.. Go ahead.. tell me I don't care.. I know my heritage.. Do I ask for a card at the local tribal medical center? NO... Why not? Because I think it is ridiculous that these people are living as "Americans" but believe that because they have some genetic marker in their blood that allows them some special considerations when it comes to reduced medical care.

I am an American, and live as one FULLY... Treating others Americans as my family.. one tribe. And I feel this way about the whole world, but it is difficult when we have borders not to find solutions to help all tribes. It's funny,. no one wants one world government, yet they want the world to behave as if there are no borders.. You can't have both... And it comes down to trust..

My family makes sure the shores of this nation are safe, they offer up their lives for it.. So we ALL can be safe as one. I find it very disrespectful for anyone living in America to benefit from such sacrifices then expect special treatments above and beyond those willing to die to keep this place free... If we treated each other in the whole world this way? No one expecting special treatments? We could have a united world.. Yet it isn't that simple is it?

Behaving as some "Native's" do? Goes against everything ancient tribal cultures were taught, yet they claim that is the heritage and culture they're somehow protecting?

Also, you are starting an argument about something that has yet to even happen.. As you suggest.. to read it again, I ask the same thing.. Trump had "proposed" suspending immigration, at the time of the start of this thread, he had not actually done it, and suspend does not men permanently terminate.

Just my opinion. As I think all sides should be heard.

[onawah]

We now have vastly more numbers of Americans unemployed, and thus more people becoming dependent on the government and charities, non-profits, etc for their very existence.
The economy is in terrible shape, and millions of Americans were already starving, living on the streets, without medical care or any hope at all.
Not only are we at war, we are in the beginning of a revolution within our own borders.
Admitting more and more immigrants is not going to help resolve this situation, but will only make matters worse, as has been amply demonstrated in other countries with similar issues.
If the countries which have been holding it together to at least some degree crumble into chaos, there will no place left to turn for anyone.

[AutumnW]

Actually, this forum is becoming more and more a platform for alt right. I don't blame them for being angry, if they are in the U.S. but their anger is being misdirected Many many excellent members have left due to this. I have mixed opinions about the entirety of Praxis' sentiments, but sympathize with where they are coming from. I am astonished at the over all slant here supported by many members.

For those who can't see it. Step back from the forum for a while and then come back and read it. It's become a bit ugly.

Two pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!

Yeah. One pro-Trump message would be enough. And one pro-Hillary neo-liberal post would be enough to qualify as alt right nonsense, actually. And it is tremendously ugly, because they both arise out of a hermetically sealed echo chamber. It's a massive misdirection of anger. If you want to be angry be angry that you don't have an efficient socialist system running smoothly, delivering your checks on time, while you are slowly allowed to go back to work.

The libertarian underpinnings of cowboy capitalism that devolves into crony capitalism (socialism for corporate elites) is out of date. And when that system is enforced onto other countries, whose citizens then have to flee because they are being bombed into submission, several different problems arise. One being the understandable clash of cultures. Venezuela is going through it now. Won't be long before they are forcefully occupied.

Part of that game is to conflate socialism with fascism and communism. So whenever the term socialism arises, it automatically carries with it a sour taste. Don't fall for it. The military has taken and taken and taken from you. All they give back is pain and they call it "freedom."


The clash of cultures is real and the job loss is real enough too, for those whose ancestors immigrated within the last hundred years, give or take. Ask yourself why those from "****hole" countries, as Trump describes them, feel they have to flee or marry outside of their own country to leave horrible living conditions. It's because they are colonists of white, generally Northern European people who have laid waste to their countries.

[TomKat]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I don't like your scale. Put anarchy (no govt) on the left and totalitarian govt on the right, and you'll see that both communism and fascism are forms of totalitarianism on the right. It's silly to pretend that they are opposites, one being on the left and one on the right.

[Lilybee8]

Thank you AutumnM!(you rock!) I am Mexican and new to PA.. and you can’t even imagine the amount of times I get to experience this label on me my family etc, this “association” of my race with drug dealers, rapist, etc.. I wonder were or from who they got this? As if We (the rest of the world) would associated “White Americans” with addicts. If there is no demand..well probably no supply. THIS types of associations is precisely WHY the author of the OP feels aggravated for this administration’s decision (even though There is a double agenda that has nothing to do with COVID) but we cannot come here and generalize! SOOO I INVITE YOU to make yourselves this question, is this virus so small that is not a threat so we can open up??? Or is it sooooo dangerous that we need to close the borders.????
As I agree with T smith on ALL, we need to keep ourselves alert of information that blinds us or modifies our social Interactions.. otherwise THEY WIN, the more divided, the more hate, the less human being we become, easy targets, Weak minds. FLY HIGH AVALONIANS!

As for the author of this thread.. Praxis, I am really sorry you feel this way, and that you probably vented in the wrong place with the wrong people.. I just wanted to let you know.. I feel you, I know where you come from, I am stuck in the middle of my process too.. and I do not feel safe anymore here.. and this is a lot to say because I come from “the most violent city in Mexico” Cd. Juárez but this helped me on one thing, I WILL NOT LOOSE HOPE NOR MY FAITH.

[TomKat]

They are both authoritarian heavy on government branches of the same philosophy (IE, both do discourage free speech and would attempt to block ideas that counter their own, much like Tom is referring to (IMO)).

We see this playing out in the various United States. The states with Democrat governors want to keep the lockdown going as long as possible. In CA Gov Nuisance is creating a 10,000-strong "army of tracers" to trace everyone's connections, and doesn't want to end lockdown until that is done. This "army" seems pretty fascist to me. And it was Biden who, in the last debate, said he wanted military on the streets. The Democrat party has become increasingly militant and FASCIST since Bill Clinton's presidency and the "police state Democrats" (Shumer, Feinstein, Hillary) pushing for gun control.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/markets/gulf-widens-between-states-over-when-to-end-virus-lockdown/ar-BB133MNX

[Lilybee8]

Billy,
What is the name of this sub forum?

I am talking to the people who are anti immigrant. There are many on this forum, especially given the name of the part of the forum i posted in.

There are many people around the world that are anti immigrant, this is not just an american issue.

History is the story of constant migration. The modern nation state is exactly that, modern.

This is not brush tarring.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-suspend-immigration-executive-order-coronavirus

This is something that now directly affects me and my wife. This matters to me on a personal level now.

My family is now in danger and I may be forced to leave my home country because of racists in America.

If you are uncomfortable with what I am saying, then maybe you are a person that is anti human from other places.


I like how you call me a racist. How exactly is MY opinion racist? Billy, I had thought more of you

Hi Praxis... hey there is good news, I spoke with my attorney today and there are exceptions of this ban.. and this is all “level 4” cases, this means all in process cases for green cards from parents or spouse of an American citizen.. military and health care workers as well, all those will continue the process, just in a very slow pase.. Hope you and your wife are under this category.. best of luck!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/us/politics/coronavirus-immigration-green-cards.amp.html

[Lilybee8]

What does legal immigration have to do with tunneling Narcos, Onawah? I know it isn't intentional, on your part, but when your response to a post about suspending legal immigration indefinitely is about drug smuggling Mexicans, it supports Praxis' original point about racism. Mexicans are lovely people.

It applies to this thread because it again indicates Trumps motivation is to stop the the Deep State (right) sources of funding from drugs (just one source) . Partial closing of the boarders is politically motivated as T Smith points out. All countries have immigration polices and without them it leaves countries vulnerable. These are basic principles of politics and how the Matrix works.

Sorry to disagree... national security related to drug dealers or cartels has nothing to do with immigration... It has more to do with human trafficking = pizzagate (Have you asked yourself how many kids in those detention centers have returned to their parents?) yup nobody knows..

But you are correct on one thing closing boarders is political motivated.. and the “funding” is the opposite.. the money & guns goes to Mexico... so they can continue their “business “ of destabilizing any government that does not fit on the US agenda..
I mean is this virus so little that we can end lockdown or is it so dangerous that we need to close boarders.. ?? but again.. nothing to do with immigration in my opinion.

[Praxis]

What does legal immigration have to do with tunneling Narcos, Onawah? I know it isn't intentional, on your part, but when your response to a post about suspending legal immigration indefinitely is about drug smuggling Mexicans, it supports Praxis' original point about racism. Mexicans are lovely people.

It applies to this thread because it again indicates Trumps motivation is to stop the the Deep State (right) sources of funding from drugs (just one source) . Partial closing of the boarders is politically motivated as T Smith points out. All countries have immigration polices and without them it leaves countries vulnerable. These are basic principles of politics and how the Matrix works.

Sorry to disagree... national security related to drug dealers or cartels has nothing to do with immigration... It has more to do with human trafficking = pizzagate (Have you asked yourself how many kids in those detention centers have returned to their parents?) yup nobody knows..

But you are correct on one thing closing boarders is political motivated.. and the “funding” is the opposite.. the money & guns goes to Mexico... so they can continue their “business “ of destabilizing any government that does not fit on the US agenda..
I mean is this virus so little that we can end lockdown or is it so dangerous that we need to close boarders.. ?? but again.. nothing to do with immigration in my opinion.

Yes, Do not listen to this MAGA person. The Report on correspondent banking clearly states that big banks launder money to this day. If Trump wanted to "fight the deep state" he would dismantle the Cocaine Import Agency(CIA) and actually go after the banks that are laundering the money. He would further withdraw from Afghanistan(as it produces the world heroin) and further dismantle the DEA as they are also complicity in drug laundering and murder(operation Fast and Furious). Further, he would have actually released the JFK documents which we just passed two year anniversary of the last release of Info which was mandated by law which TRUMP LET THE CIA CONTINUE TO HIDE THE TRUTH.

Say it with me yall: SEALED INDICTMENTS https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release

Where we go one we go all straight to hell in a hand basket.