The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

[Forest Denizen]

The Dangers of “Living While Black”

Given the uproar that followed the George Floyd murder in Minneapolis, the Black Lives Matter (#BLM) movement, the infiltration of #BLM by bad actors from various sources, and ensuing debates both within and without the Avalon Forum, I thought it might be of use to take a step back and examine the underlying issue. Again.

The underlying issue that I’m referring to here is the FACT that it is inherently dangerous for black people in the U.S. to do all of the things that white people take for granted, including:

1. taking a stroll
2. going for a jog
3. driving a car
4. sitting in a car that is not moving
5. shopping
6. standing or sitting on your own front porch

And the list goes on. Black people have been arrested, savagely beaten, and even murdered as a result of engaging in the above actions BECAUSE they were black while doing them. These things happened as a direct result of the color of their skin. Because someone, a cop or someone who is not a cop, identified a perceived abnormality, that is, a black person somewhere “out of place” or doing something that made them “appear to be a threat,” when if a white person had been doing the same thing, they would have been left alone.

This has been happening for A VERY LONG TIME.

So, when black people have finally had enough (AGAIN!), and fill the streets - and, yes, are accompanied by many white people who have also had enough of seeing this happen to their friends, loved ones, and colleagues - and hold up signs and chant, #BlackLivesMatter!!, and you COUNTER with #AllLivesMatter!!, this is perceived, and rightfully so, as an affront, and an effort to undermine the #BLM movement.

And yes, of course All Lives Matter, BUT you weren’t standing out in the street and holding signs and chanting All Lives Matter before George Floyd was murdered! So, of course this is seen as ill-timed at best, and possibly an intentional effort to sabotage the #BLM movement.

And, yes, of course we know that the looting and vandalism is wrong, but this was engaged in by a small minority of those folks who were out protesting. And, yes, some of that business was incited by or sparked off by infiltrators looking to weaponize the movement, but that effort has been squashed by the hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors, despite what the MSM may have focused on.

Black people have suffered for far too long, and yes, I know, so have Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians and Palestinians and on and on; however, the #BLM movement is happening in the streets NOW, so let’s not undermine it with calls of AllLivesMatter!

Let’s start to right the wrongs now and address the racism that black people have been enduring for far too long. And that will be just the start of an attempt to begin to right the wrongs that all minorities have suffered.

[Dorjezigzag]

The Dangers of “Living While Black”

Given the uproar that followed the George Floyd murder in Minneapolis, the Black Lives Matter (#BLM) movement, the infiltration of #BLM by bad actors from various sources, and ensuing debates both within and without the Avalon Forum, I thought it might be of use to take a step back and examine the underlying issue. Again.

The underlying issue that I’m referring to here is the FACT that it is inherently dangerous for black people in the U.S. to do all of the things that white people take for granted, including:

1. taking a stroll
2. going for a jog
3. driving a car
4. sitting in a car that is not moving
5. shopping
6. standing or sitting on your own front porch

And the list goes on. Black people have been arrested, savagely beaten, and even murdered as a result of engaging in the above actions BECAUSE they were black while doing them. These things happened as a direct result of the color of their skin. Because someone, a cop or someone who is not a cop, identified a perceived abnormality, that is, a black person somewhere “out of place” or doing something that made them “appear to be a threat,” when if a white person had been doing the same thing, they would have been left alone.

This has been happening for A VERY LONG TIME.

So, when black people have finally had enough (AGAIN!), and fill the streets - and, yes, are accompanied by many white people who have also had enough of seeing this happen to their friends, loved ones, and colleagues - and hold up signs and chant, #BlackLivesMatter!!, and you COUNTER with #AllLivesMatter!!, this is perceived, and rightfully so, as an affront, and an effort to undermine the #BLM movement.

And yes, of course All Lives Matter, BUT you weren’t standing out in the street and holding signs and chanting All Lives Matter before George Floyd was murdered! So, of course this is seen as ill-timed at best, and possibly an intentional effort to sabotage the #BLM movement.

And, yes, of course we know that the looting and vandalism is wrong, but this was engaged in by a small minority of those folks who were out protesting. And, yes, some of that business was incited by or sparked off by infiltrators looking to weaponize the movement, but that effort has been squashed by the hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors, despite what the MSM may have focused on.

Black people have suffered for far too long, and yes, I know, so have Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians and Palestinians and on and on; however, the #BLM movement is happening in the streets NOW, so let’s not undermine it with calls of AllLivesMatter!

Let’s start to right the wrongs now and address the racism that black people have been enduring for far too long. And that will be just the start of an attempt to begin to right the wrongs that all minorities have suffered.

How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.

In fact going down this road of identity politics gets very messy when you face the fact that black men commit nearly half of all murders in the USA, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.

Something does not become a FACT by putting it in capital letters, it becomes so with evidence such as statistics of which you provide none.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

[Luke Holiday]

So, when black people have finally had enough (AGAIN!), and fill the streets - and, yes, are accompanied by many white people who have also had enough of seeing this happen to their friends, loved ones, and colleagues - and hold up signs and chant, #BlackLivesMatter!!, and you COUNTER with #AllLivesMatter!!, this is perceived, and rightfully so, as an affront, and an effort to undermine the #BLM movement.

And yes, of course All Lives Matter, BUT you weren’t standing out in the street and holding signs and chanting All Lives Matter before George Floyd was murdered! So, of course this is seen as ill-timed at best, and possibly an intentional effort to sabotage the #BLM movement.

.[/QUOTE]

Blessings Luke

Addendum for Ken.

Ken, the reason that your quote is shortened and highlighted is that I have been told not to repost entire large posts in quotes – instead highlight that which I am commenting on in order to maintain the aesthetic appeal of the thread.

From the tone of your rebuttal I sense that you are angered by the Einstein quote on problem solving.

Just to be clear, the quote is used to:

1. highlight the ironic fact that BLM are funded by the same consciousness that created the conditions Black lives have lived under for over 400 years.

Ken, I hate to see those who believe in a just cause being played like violin's in order serve perpetrating master's

2. You cannot change negativity toward any race of people with negativity by those same people.

Blessings Luke


PS: "Luke, Blessings, My Ass" … Ironically this proves my point....

[lunaflare]

1. taking a stroll
2. going for a jog
3. driving a car
4. sitting in a car that is not moving
5. shopping
6. standing or sitting on your own front porch

Not wise for white folk to do any of these things in certain parts of Oakland, California. This has been known for the past few decades by locals. Have plenty of personal examples of white people (including a grandmother and her nine-year-old granddaughter) being mugged and robbed and others, badly beaten. Maybe it is about colour; maybe not. No police follow up, although incidents were reported. It is simply viewed as stupid to venture into these neighbourhoods if you are white.

[Open Minded Dude]

As 'Inclusivity' matters also so much nowadays .... doesn't ALL lives matter also already include BLACK lives matter?

Why is this seen as an insult? Isn't ALL more inclusive than just BLACK?

Isn't this all about the will to be offended and thereby to cause more divide again - rather than unity?

[Forest Denizen]

How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.

In fact going down this road of identity politics gets very messy when you face the fact that black men commit nearly half of all murders in the USA, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.

Something does not become a FACT by putting it in capital letters, it becomes so with evidence such as statistics of which you provide none.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Dorjezigzag, in the study you quote and famously quoted by Rudy Guliani in a “discussion” centering on the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks, but you fail to include the statistic for white homicide victims from the same study: 84 percent of white victims were killed by whites.

There are several reasons for this commonly known in criminology, first being that most murders are committed by friends or acquaintances of the victim. But these statistics don’t tell the whole story as true of most statistics. The statistics include only those crimes where the backgrounds of not only the victims but the perpetrators, too, are known – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and with no description of the person who committed the crimes are discounted. This would include the vast majority of lynchings.

Please don’t provide statistics in your posts that are out of context.

[Forest Denizen]

1. taking a stroll
2. going for a jog
3. driving a car
4. sitting in a car that is not moving
5. shopping
6. standing or sitting on your own front porch

Not wise for white folk to do any of these things in certain parts of Oakland, California. This has been known for the past few decades by locals. Have plenty of personal examples of white people (including a grandmother and her nine-year-old granddaughter) being mugged and robbed and others, badly beaten. Maybe it is about colour; maybe not. No police follow up, although incidents were reported. It is simply viewed as stupid to venture into these neighbourhoods if you are white.

lunaflare, that's very interesting. I've lived and worked in Oakland and never had a problem. Oakland is a city with a large homeless problem. Many of the homeless are mentally ill and many are people of color. Financial disparities in the Bay Area are as bad as just about anywhere in the US.

Crime in Oakland, black on black, black on white, white on black, white on Hispanic, etc., etc., has been a problem for decades just as just as it has in many other US cities.

I have also lived in the South and have friends who were mugged and robbed and beaten by white thugs because they were black.

I’m not sure you understood the point that I was making. Please elaborate if you will.

[Dorjezigzag]

How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.

In fact going down this road of identity politics gets very messy when you face the fact that black men commit nearly half of all murders in the USA, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.

Something does not become a FACT by putting it in capital letters, it becomes so with evidence such as statistics of which you provide none.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Dorjezigzag, I expected you’d jump in with this stale racist trope.

Yes, in the study you quote and famously quoted by Rudy Guliani in a “discussion” centering on the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks, but you fail to include the statistic for white homicide victims from the same study: 84 percent of white victims were killed by whites.

There are several reasons for this commonly known in criminology, first being that most murders are committed by friends or acquaintances of the victim. But these statistics don’t tell the whole story as true of most statistics. The statistics include only those crimes where the backgrounds of not only the victims but the perpetrators, too, are known – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and with no description of the person who committed the crimes are discounted. This would include the vast majority of lynchings.

Please don’t provide statistics in your posts that are out of context.[COLOR="red"]

Let me remind you, you are the one that brought up race

and here we see the virtue signalling cancel culture of those unable to debate

OK so you just call me a racist for posting relevant FACTUAL statistics without any derogatory comments about race.

How f*cking dare you call me a racist, you know nothing of me and my life


I should not have to do this but Let me explain to you why this is relevant to your statement, you state that black people need to be more concerned about going about their everyday lives because of racism but most people that are attacking them are from there own race, so to say the problem comes from racism is incorrect.

If I was a homicide detective and I knew the murderer was Chinese would I investigate all other races just so I could be seen as more inclusive. No I would do all I could to solve the case as soon as possible. Unfortunately for the innocent black community that means that there is an increased risk of being a suspect because there is an increased level of crime enacted by their community.

I wasn't going to mention it but as you bring up the 84% compared to 93%, that basically means more black people are attacking white people than white people attacking black. Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative. The majority of the killings though will just be down to circumstance with no race bases as with the white attacks on blacks, although on rare occasions they will happen

[enfoldedblue]

Thank you Ken for starting this thread. I found that other thread on the topic sooo disappointing and even painful.

The amount of defensiveness and attempts to minimise the direness of the situation for people of color was not what I expected here.

How anyone cannot see that people of color have an extra layer challenge that is unjust is beyond me. How anyone could not see that this is not ok and that ....while there may be other reasons agenda wise regarding why this being brought up now ... that doesn't mean the problem isn't real and anyone who wants to brush over it is part of the problem.
How can anyone say this is ok.....

36% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. populationUnarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015Only 13 of the 104 cases in 2015 where an unarmed black person was killed by police resulted in officer(s) being charged with a crime. 4 of these cases have ended in a mistrial or charges against the officer(s) being dropped and 4 cases are still awaiting trial or have a trial underway. Only 4 cases (Matthew Ajibade, Eric Harris, Paterson Brown Jr., and William Chapman) have resulted in convictions of officers involved, with a fifth case (Walter Scott) resulting in the officer pleading guilty. Of the 4 cases where the officer(s) involved have been convicted and sentenced, none were sentenced to serve more than 4 years in prison.

All lives can't matter unless ....black lives matter...too!
:grouphug:

[RunningDeer]

Don't edit my posts. I wouldn't edit yours.

I did NOT post in Bold.


Addendum for Ken.

Ken, the reason that your quote is shortened and highlighted is that I have been told not to repost entire large posts in quotes – instead highlight that which I am commenting on in order to maintain the aesthetic appeal of the thread.

From the tone of your rebuttal I sense that you are angered by the Einstein quote on problem solving.

Just to be clear, the quote is used to highlight the ironic fact that BLM are funded by the same consciousness that created the conditions Black lives have lived under over 400 years.

Ken, I hate to see those who believe in a just cause being played like violin's in order serve the real perpetrating masters

Blessings Luke

https://i.imgur.com/tQube71.gif Ken, I've reposted part of Luke's updated post so you won't miss it.
More often than not I'll highlight to emphasize a particular section.

♡

[bobme]

Do me one favor, all here in this thread. Go away from this thead for a quick look in the mirror.

What you just saw in that mirror, was a slave. Does not matter what color it was,it was a slave, following the devide agenda that you are told to follow.

Thus keeping you from seeing the real fault of all of this. You.

We need to come together NOW. Or else we are all screwed up the you know what, apart.

[AutumnW]

Dorzegieg

In response to Ken's post, rebutting your "statistics", you said:

"and here we see the virtue signalling cancel culture of those unable to debate"

Instead of debating, perhaps you should be conversing with those who don't share your deep commitment to racism.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Do me one favor, all here in this thread. Go away from this thead for a quick look in the mirror.

What you just saw in that mirror, was a slave. Does not matter what color it was,it was a slave, following the devide agenda that you are told to follow.

Thus keeping you from seeing the real fault of all of this. You.

We need to come together NOW. Or else we are all screwed up the you know what, apart.

Easy for you to say at this point in time, when you might feel just ever so threatened by disease and possible social disruption. YOU look in the mirror. Your koombaya moment is entirely self focused.

[AutumnW]

Thank you Ken for starting this thread. I found that other thread on the topic sooo disappointing and even painful.

The amount of defensiveness and attempts to minimise the direness of the situation for people of color was not what I expected here.

How anyone cannot see that people of color have an extra layer challenge that is unjust is beyond me. How anyone could not see that this is not ok and that ....while there may be other reasons agenda wise regarding why this being brought up now ... that doesn't mean the problem isn't real and anyone who wants to brush over it is part of the problem.
How can anyone say this is ok.....

36% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. populationUnarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015Only 13 of the 104 cases in 2015 where an unarmed black person was killed by police resulted in officer(s) being charged with a crime. 4 of these cases have ended in a mistrial or charges against the officer(s) being dropped and 4 cases are still awaiting trial or have a trial underway. Only 4 cases (Matthew Ajibade, Eric Harris, Paterson Brown Jr., and William Chapman) have resulted in convictions of officers involved, with a fifth case (Walter Scott) resulting in the officer pleading guilty. Of the 4 cases where the officer(s) involved have been convicted and sentenced, none were sentenced to serve more than 4 years in prison.

All lives can't matter unless ....black lives matter...too!
:grouphug:

It's hard to believe what has happened to this forum. Hard to believe, disappointing and just sad. Half the members don't want to mask up, yet I can easily picture them in KKK gear.

[enfoldedblue]

I don't think this will be a revelation for anyone here. Of course we are all slaves in that we need to pay just to exist and most of us are very limited in terms of what we can do.
But right now the extent of those limitations are affected by skin color. If we want to throw off our shackles we need to come together and a crucial part of comming together is EQUALITY.




Do me one favor, all here in this thread. Go away from this thead for a quick look in the mirror.

What you just saw in that mirror, was a slave. Does not matter what color it was,it was a slave, following the devide agenda that you are told to follow.

Thus keeping you from seeing the real fault of all of this. You.

We need to come together NOW. Or else we are all screwed up the you know what, apart.

[AutumnW]

How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.

In fact going down this road of identity politics gets very messy when you face the fact that black men commit nearly half of all murders in the USA, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.

Something does not become a FACT by putting it in capital letters, it becomes so with evidence such as statistics of which you provide none.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Dorjezigzag, I expected you’d jump in with this stale racist trope.

Yes, in the study you quote and famously quoted by Rudy Guliani in a “discussion” centering on the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks, but you fail to include the statistic for white homicide victims from the same study: 84 percent of white victims were killed by whites.

There are several reasons for this commonly known in criminology, first being that most murders are committed by friends or acquaintances of the victim. But these statistics don’t tell the whole story as true of most statistics. The statistics include only those crimes where the backgrounds of not only the victims but the perpetrators, too, are known – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and with no description of the person who committed the crimes are discounted. This would include the vast majority of lynchings.

Please don’t provide statistics in your posts that are out of context.[COLOR="red"]

Let me remind you, you are the one that brought up race

and here we see the virtue signalling cancel culture of those unable to debate

OK so you just call me a racist for posting relevant FACTUAL statistics without any derogatory comments about race.

How f*cking dare you call me a racist, you know nothing of me and my life


I should not have to do this but Let me explain to you why this is relevant to your statement, you state that black people need to be more concerned about going about their everyday lives because of racism but most people that are attacking them are from there own race, so to say the problem comes from racism is incorrect.

If I was a homicide detective and I knew the murderer was Chinese would I investigate all other races just so I could be seen as more inclusive. No I would do all I could to solve the case as soon as possible. Unfortunately for the innocent black community that means that there is an increased risk of being a suspect because there is an increased level of crime enacted by their community.

I wasn't going to mention it but as you bring up the 84% compared to 93%, that basically means more black people are attacking white people than white people attacking black. Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative. The majority of the killings though will just be down to circumstance with no race bases as with the white attacks on blacks, although on rare occasions they will happen

"Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative."

Mwahhaha. You couldn't make this **** up! Beautiful. Keep it coming. You're on a roll! "I should not have to do this but let me explain it to you." LOL Priceless

Hard to fathom you are serious, this is so ridiculous.

[Mike]

Ken, you have a huge heart. I love you. But i think you're off on this one. Dorj's post was perfectly reasonable. You were out of order there.

Sometimes you first have to be dispassionate about things you're passionate or emotional about. You have to look at the data. Presenting data without waving a BLM flag at the same time does not make one racist.

It's true that most violent crime is intraracial, and not interracial. But the fact that this applies to whites too is irrelevant in the current conversation. Whites aren't blaming blacks for the deaths in the white population. It's the other way around

here it is:

According to the Washington Post, 1004 people were shot by police last year.

250 of them were black

of those 250, only 9 were unarmed. most of the rest were armed and resisting arrest.

there are roughly 42,000,000 black people in the country.

that means that 41,992,500 of them were not shot last year:)

and of the 7500 who were, the large majority of them were shot by other black people.

black people in this country are not under some kind of existential threat. not by white people anyway.

some levity:
nN9hy4YNIv0

[Dorjezigzag]

How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.

In fact going down this road of identity politics gets very messy when you face the fact that black men commit nearly half of all murders in the USA, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.

Something does not become a FACT by putting it in capital letters, it becomes so with evidence such as statistics of which you provide none.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Dorjezigzag, I expected you’d jump in with this stale racist trope.

Yes, in the study you quote and famously quoted by Rudy Guliani in a “discussion” centering on the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks, but you fail to include the statistic for white homicide victims from the same study: 84 percent of white victims were killed by whites.

There are several reasons for this commonly known in criminology, first being that most murders are committed by friends or acquaintances of the victim. But these statistics don’t tell the whole story as true of most statistics. The statistics include only those crimes where the backgrounds of not only the victims but the perpetrators, too, are known – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and with no description of the person who committed the crimes are discounted. This would include the vast majority of lynchings.

Please don’t provide statistics in your posts that are out of context.[COLOR="red"]

Let me remind you, you are the one that brought up race

and here we see the virtue signalling cancel culture of those unable to debate

OK so you just call me a racist for posting relevant FACTUAL statistics without any derogatory comments about race.

How f*cking dare you call me a racist, you know nothing of me and my life


I should not have to do this but Let me explain to you why this is relevant to your statement, you state that black people need to be more concerned about going about their everyday lives because of racism but most people that are attacking them are from there own race, so to say the problem comes from racism is incorrect.

If I was a homicide detective and I knew the murderer was Chinese would I investigate all other races just so I could be seen as more inclusive. No I would do all I could to solve the case as soon as possible. Unfortunately for the innocent black community that means that there is an increased risk of being a suspect because there is an increased level of crime enacted by their community.

I wasn't going to mention it but as you bring up the 84% compared to 93%, that basically means more black people are attacking white people than white people attacking black. Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative. The majority of the killings though will just be down to circumstance with no race bases as with the white attacks on blacks, although on rare occasions they will happen

"Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative."

Mwahhaha. You couldn't make this **** up! Beautiful. Keep it coming. You're on a roll! "I should not have to do this but let me explain it to you." LOL Priceless

Hard to fathom you are serious, this is so ridiculous.

Please explain why you couldn't make this up ? Of course its going to happen as you have extremist nazi whites, there are also racist blacks who attack whites.

There are also self hating whites who hate their culture and their history and they destroy themselves, same with all races


Here is a video , only 2.30mins, regarding a racist black man, one of the victims a 64 year old woman.
ksuhDS1SqUI

[AutumnW]

According to internal investigation, Mike? Who says they were armed. What was the follow through? And where is the link?

[bobme]

Dorzegieg

In response to Ken's post, rebutting your "statistics", you said:

"and here we see the virtue signalling cancel culture of those unable to debate"

Instead of debating, perhaps you should be conversing with those who don't share your deep commitment to racism.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Do me one favor, all here in this thread. Go away from this thead for a quick look in the mirror.

What you just saw in that mirror, was a slave. Does not matter what color it was,it was a slave, following the devide agenda that you are told to follow.

Thus keeping you from seeing the real fault of all of this. You.

We need to come together NOW. Or else we are all screwed up the you know what, apart.

Easy for you to say at this point in time, when you might feel just ever so threatened by disease and possible social disruption. YOU look in the mirror. Your koombaya moment is entirely self focused.

I am Not Worried of any thing. Did not intend any harm here at all. Just saying this entire thing of anger pointed towards he , by you or anybody else, is not what we need right now. Love you.

[Dorjezigzag]

Thank you Ken for starting this thread. I found that other thread on the topic sooo disappointing and even painful.

The amount of defensiveness and attempts to minimise the direness of the situation for people of color was not what I expected here.

How anyone cannot see that people of color have an extra layer challenge that is unjust is beyond me. How anyone could not see that this is not ok and that ....while there may be other reasons agenda wise regarding why this being brought up now ... that doesn't mean the problem isn't real and anyone who wants to brush over it is part of the problem.
How can anyone say this is ok.....

36% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. populationUnarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015Only 13 of the 104 cases in 2015 where an unarmed black person was killed by police resulted in officer(s) being charged with a crime. 4 of these cases have ended in a mistrial or charges against the officer(s) being dropped and 4 cases are still awaiting trial or have a trial underway. Only 4 cases (Matthew Ajibade, Eric Harris, Paterson Brown Jr., and William Chapman) have resulted in convictions of officers involved, with a fifth case (Walter Scott) resulting in the officer pleading guilty. Of the 4 cases where the officer(s) involved have been convicted and sentenced, none were sentenced to serve more than 4 years in prison.

All lives can't matter unless ....black lives matter...too!
:grouphug:

It's hard to believe what has happened to this forum. Hard to believe, disappointing and just sad. Half the members don't want to mask up, yet I can easily picture them in KKK gear.

I cant think of anyone that would want to wear KKK gear, how utterly ridiculous and offensive but there are a fair few that would like to put on their Mao suit and send people to the Gulag, re-education and ultimately extermination.

[Gracy]

It's hard to believe what has happened to this forum. Hard to believe, disappointing and just sad. Half the members don't want to mask up, yet I can easily picture them in KKK gear.

Come on now Jess…


Dorjezigzag, I expected you’d jump in with this stale racist trope.

And I'm going to have to say the same to Ken. Come on man.

Folks, we need clear, objective as possible heads on this stuff, in order to to stand any chance at all of coming to mutual understandings on these extremely complex, controversial, and divisive issues.

We don't necessarily need to agree with one another, that's never expected at a place so intelligent and diverse as this, but mutual respect is a must.

[Mike]

Thank you Ken for starting this thread. I found that other thread on the topic sooo disappointing and even painful.

The amount of defensiveness and attempts to minimise the direness of the situation for people of color was not what I expected here.

How anyone cannot see that people of color have an extra layer challenge that is unjust is beyond me. How anyone could not see that this is not ok and that ....while there may be other reasons agenda wise regarding why this being brought up now ... that doesn't mean the problem isn't real and anyone who wants to brush over it is part of the problem.
How can anyone say this is ok.....

36% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. populationUnarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015Only 13 of the 104 cases in 2015 where an unarmed black person was killed by police resulted in officer(s) being charged with a crime. 4 of these cases have ended in a mistrial or charges against the officer(s) being dropped and 4 cases are still awaiting trial or have a trial underway. Only 4 cases (Matthew Ajibade, Eric Harris, Paterson Brown Jr., and William Chapman) have resulted in convictions of officers involved, with a fifth case (Walter Scott) resulting in the officer pleading guilty. Of the 4 cases where the officer(s) involved have been convicted and sentenced, none were sentenced to serve more than 4 years in prison.

All lives can't matter unless ....black lives matter...too!
:grouphug:

It's hard to believe what has happened to this forum. Hard to believe, disappointing and just sad. Half the members don't want to mask up, yet I can easily picture them in KKK gear.



half the avalon members are KKK? interesting stat! where's the link?:)

Jess I heard the stat about 9 of 250 being unarmed twice - once on the Ben Shapiro show and once on the Steven Crowder show. Let me guess, not a fan? Of course, but these are 2 very high profile guys who wouldn't be offering up bogus statistics to millions of listeners.

Here's Ben at the 5:40 mark: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=932476043880244

I'm still searching for the Crowder show I heard that on. Meanwhile I've sent Shapiro a FB message asking where he got the stat. I'll get back to you if he responds.

The rest of those stats are easily accessible on the web.

[Antagenet]

No one who has any humanity at all should EVER be shamed, or have to take a "Shame Walk". Not for what they have done, let alone what others in whatever so called group they belong to did in the past or do in the present. Shaming never helps anyone. Not victims, not even perpetrators. What helps is understanding. What helps is making amends when the person is ready, but that is not the same as "reparations". Reparations is a demand that is a condenmnation like the barrel of a gun pointing at their face. You think this ever creates healing or togetherness? I ****ing would NEVER take a knee to anyone one earth who was trying to shame me. I would get in their face and say, "you dont know me, you dont know how hard my life has been. I bet you would never want to trade places with me.. so take all your preconceived ideas and shove them. I dont ask you to kneel for me and you shouldnt ask me to kneel for you. I dont even thing we should kneel together, because there is NO SUCH THING as making up for what happened in the past. There is only doing good in the future. There is only a chance to heal and this never comes from division.
The elites those ****ing sociopaths really are adept at getting us all to hate each other. They are using race as a trigger now and I find it disgusting. There I have said my peace.
Anyone who wants to judge me without asking me about 20 question to get to know me you can go FK yourself.

[AutumnW]

Mike I sent you a pm from Washington Post with stats the other day. The stats for whites shot by cops was slightly more than blacks shot by cops. However...and we discussed this. The fatality rate was way higher. In other words the cops were shooting to kill black men.

As far as Shapiro goes, of course I don't trust him or anyone who would dismiss valid protests by a racial minority. Nobody is asking you poor white guys to feel personally guilty for anything other than denying murder by cop happens disproportionately in the black community. When you use stats from those committed to distort (ther careers depend on it)you can feel responsible for that. Yes. You should bloody well know better.

[Mike]

Mike I sent you a pm from Washington Post with stats the other day. The stats for whites shot by cops was slightly more than blacks shot by cops. However...and we discussed this. The fatality rate was way higher. In other words the cops were shooting to kill black men.

As far as Shapiro goes, of course I don't trust him or anyone who would dismiss valid protests by a racial minority. Nobody is asking you poor white guys to feel personally guilty for anything other than denying murder by cop happens disproportionately in the black community. When you use stats from those committed to distort (ther careers depend on it)you can feel responsible for that. Yes. You should bloody well know better.


so you think he made it up then? just conjured it out of thin air. him and steven crowder?

why would they do that?? to discredit themselves in front of millions of viewers?:)

i'm working on gettin the stat for you. sit tight. i'll get it

[AutumnW]

Same...did you get the PM with Washington Post stats? Do I think Shapiro would lie? No. Twist facts? Yes.

[Mike]

Same...did you get the PM with Washington Post stats? Do I think Shapiro would lie? No. Twist facts? Yes.


hmm. i don't think i got a pm with washington post stats from you. but you left a link for it in a post on one of the other threads. is that maybe what you're referring to?

[Franny]

Mike, I don't think the issue is so much who commits crime, numbers and percentages although it's part of an overall problem.

It's the heavy cloud, the pressure and stress, black people live under when driving while black, attending class, working, jogging or shopping while black, just living while black.

Please read Mark's post from the Racism thread. He shows how he has to conduct himself in such a way as to not offend or upset the people he comes across as he goes through his day in a way white people don't need to be concerned with.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100738-Racism&p=1197433&viewfull=1#post1197433



I wake up and get dressed, leave my house to go to work. At the stop light, I happen to look over at a lady in the car next to me. She meets my gaze and looks away quickly, then I see the lock in her car go down. I return my eyes to the road. A little later, a car veers into my lane and I honk. As I move up by the guy, an older man, he looks at me, shakes his fist and I can see his mouth moving. He is still screaming and gesticulating to himself as I leave him behind.

I arrive at work and breath deeply before getting out of the car, looking into the mirror, raising my brow and smiling. I center and ground consciously, releasing thought and misgiving to prepare for the day.

I get out and enter the building, speaking to those I know jovially, adjusting my auric output to openness and caring, making sure to meet eyes and respond individually, reinforcing the sense of community. I get on the elevator and a woman I don't know is there. She sees me and her eyes widen a bit before she looks away and moves to the side of the elevator, clasping her purse firmly to her side and staring straight ahead. During the day, all progresses usually, a story about Drumpf comes on the radio and, since the job is tense around politics, people are silent for the most part but eyes rise above cubicles and dog whistles blare loudly. I go to get a drink of water at the cooler and interrupt a small group of liberals talking quietly. I laugh at something they say and the group breaks up and each moves back to their spaces.

At lunch I go out alone and see a group of my coworkers behind me as we enter a restaurant. I sit first and order, and see them order about five minutes later with another wait staff on the other side of the restaurant. We only have half an hour but I make note of the fact that all of their orders came 10 minutes before mine did. The afternoon passes relatively uneventfully except for a short meeting after work, where the boss remonstrates the staff for talking about politics around the water cooler. I hadn't seen him around and wonder idly who told him. It could have been anyone, really.

That evening, as I walk the dog into the park I ignore numerous instances of the "calling of the children" and the belligerent stares of protective fathers. Later, returning home and going down the street a woman at the other end of the block crosses the street and continues along her path. As I near my house a police cruiser slows down and I do not look but sense the eyes hard on me. I make it home and close the door, lean on it and close my eyes, breathing deeply.

The above is a dramatization of different times and spaces in my daily life. While this particular series of events has never happened in exactly this order on any day of my life, each event that you see represented here has happened countless times in my life. Beyond count. Over and over again.

In a nation where so many people consider themselves to be individuals, far too many seem to be acting out some sort of program. Engaging in the same seeming thought pattern and reaction as others a quarter or a half or a full nation away.


Some years ago I met Dora in a meditation class, we hit it off like people sometimes do even though she was younger by five or 6 years and black. Eventually we became housemates.

We were having a conversation one night and at some point I asked her if she ever felt uncomfortable in the class which was mostly white, but also Asian, Jewish, black, South American and more. She said that she really didn't but was always waiting for something to go wrong and be perceived as the problem, it's part of being black.

I knew this but had never lived it, of course. I saw it when we went out for a meal occasionally; the looks, the longer wait for a waitress. It didn't happen every time but it was noticeable when it did.

She related some of the usual stories of being followed in stores and shops or not being allowed in at all. Stories of being stopped and questioned, of being watched closely as if she might be dangerous. Maybe she was a bit dangerous, :bigsmile: she was working on her brown belt in martial arts.

One of the stories that stood out to me was about an experience her mom had had just a few years prior. Her mother was educated, with a degree and worked as a professional person, an engineer or analyst, don't quite recall.

One Friday a co-worker approached her and told her she needed a dress or some item hemmed or repaired, needed it Monday, dropped it on her desk and walked away. Her mother handled it but it caused some upset in the office, most colleagues backing her mother and a few others backing the co-worker.

Serious question: what kind of person behaves in that way?

Dora grew up in a military family where both parents, she and all siblings, were educated and held degrees. But this intelligent, educated young woman, conservatively and very neatly dressed in a business suit was followed when she entered a shop most of the time. She was living while black; and the stress, she told me, was a constant and could undo her some days.

The black experience is a bit different from the white experience even if the black person grows up just as economically advantaged or disadvantaged as their white counterpart.

Apologies for not having expressed this as well as it could have been, on sleep deficit this week :sleep:

[Dorjezigzag]

Next thing those riding this current wave of virtue signalling on avalon can get together and make a video about how bad white people are like this one done by celebrities. A must watch, my black friends find it hilarious.

tfJPTf4eQ5c

[AutumnW]

In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

After Michael Brown, an unarmed black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.

Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

You have to ask yourselves, would guys like Ben Shapiro twist this to support their debating position. It happens all the time.

[AutumnW]

Sorry Mike and Dorz, I get very hot under the collar about this issue, as you can see. And Franny! Excellent first hand account. Thank you . You wrote it up beautifully.

A huge part of the problem is media has become more purely propaganda, particularly social media, like Facebook. There's a lot of money to be made by proclaiming things often and loudly and with a sense of certainty.

People honestly don't know what to believe. I don't trust Washington Post for everything, by a long shot, but I do trust their stats on the number of fatalities caused by police. They kind of represent the elite and the article I posted runs counter to what you would call an elite agenda. THAT kind of counter trend in reporting, makes me pay attention.

[AutumnW]

Next thing those riding this current wave of virtue signalling on avalon can get together and make a video about how bad white people are like this one done by celebrities. A must watch, my black friends find it hilarious.

tfJPTf4eQ5c

Being genuinely alarmed by blinkered thinking isn't virtue signalling. Nobody is asking you to kiss anybody's ass, D, but just try stepping outside of your usual media and read or watch across a broader spectrum. We don't have to be on the very same page or even in the same book, but being somewhere in the same library would help.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Same...did you get the PM with Washington Post stats? Do I think Shapiro would lie? No. Twist facts? Yes.


hmm. i don't think i got a pm with washington post stats from you. but you left a link for it in a post on one of the other threads. is that maybe what you're referring to?

Probably! But the link I added above is entirely different. It fleshes things out more. :clapping:

[Dorjezigzag]

In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

After Michael Brown, an unarmed black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.

Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

You have to ask yourselves, would guys like Ben Shapiro twist this to support their debating position. It happens all the time.

OMG you talk about others twisting statistics, You get shot at a rate proportionate to the violent crime you commit not as your percentage of the population, well for the most part.

So are they going to introduce shooting quotas that only 16% of shootings are allowed to be on black people even when they commit close to 50% of homicides.

White men actually get shot a lot more than black men despite committing less crime.

Very good factual link here,

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

[Dorjezigzag]

Next thing those riding this current wave of virtue signalling on avalon can get together and make a video about how bad white people are like this one done by celebrities. A must watch, my black friends find it hilarious.

tfJPTf4eQ5c

Being genuinely alarmed by blinkered thinking isn't virtue signalling. Nobody is asking you to kiss anybody's ass, D, but just try stepping outside of your usual media and read or watch across a broader spectrum. We don't have to be on the very same page or even in the same book, but being somewhere in the same library would help.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Same...did you get the PM with Washington Post stats? Do I think Shapiro would lie? No. Twist facts? Yes.


hmm. i don't think i got a pm with washington post stats from you. but you left a link for it in a post on one of the other threads. is that maybe what you're referring to?

Probably! But the link I added above is entirely different. It fleshes things out more. :clapping:

I think you would be surprised at my media read, some with long memories may recall me defending Russell brand and socialism, I was hated for that as well lol. I am interested in what a lot of those on the left say, indeed I wouldn't place myself on the right although I seem to be being forced there. I have a great respect for the writings of Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky amongst others and will listen to what they have to say. An important value for me though is freedom of speech and this seems to be eroding on the left, this thread being a classic example.

[AutumnW]

Statista is relying on official reports. Look at the Washington Posts numbers, please. And as Blacks make up a large part of the underclass, where crime has always been more of a problem, I trust your 50% number. That is the black on black crime you mentioned before, I believe. But people are not shot by cops during the commission of murder. The cops generally arrive after a murder is committed. That goes for everybody. That means a goodly number are being killed for "resisting arrest," etc...

Please read the more accurate numbers from WAPO. Thank you.

[palehorse]

What if the black brother is wealth? Is it still a matter of racism?
Of course not.

I have witnessed several times, the white man smashing the poor and if is Black, Aborigene or Asian then it is a double smash, I proudly shout "racist" when I see it and one time got into some trouble, but I do not care.

I like to see the black brother climbing up the food chain as well everybody who deserve that, I really feel happy and I wish more and more get there working hard their way up.

But now and ever what is wrong with some white folks, do they think they are a better race or deserve more due to their skin color?

Please someone explain it to me, because in my mind I can't see any difference. I am really tired about this BS.

[Mike]

Sorry Mike and Dorz, I get very hot under the collar about this issue, as you can see. And Franny! Excellent first hand account. Thank you . You wrote it up beautifully.

A huge part of the problem is media has become more purely propaganda, particularly social media, like Facebook. There's a lot of money to be made by proclaiming things often and loudly and with a sense of certainty.

People honestly don't know what to believe. I don't trust Washington Post for everything, by a long shot, but I do trust their stats on the number of fatalities caused by police. They kind of represent the elite and the article I posted runs counter to what you would call an elite agenda. THAT kind of counter trend in reporting, makes me pay attention.


no worries jess. none at all. i know where your heart is and i totally respect it and you. 150%. you're the best, and i'd happily shout that from the rooftops.

as i was saying earlier to a friend, i'm actually a very agreeable person. i know i seem stubborn and unreasonable to some of you but it would actually be very easy for a guy like me to give all this up in favor of a big kumbaya moment and offer everyone here a big huge virtual hug and call it a day on all this stuff. a very large part of me would absolutely love to do that.

and i'm not blind to injustice in the world. i see it! it's heartbreaking. i'm actually kind of a softie, and my greatest fear in expressing too much of that is that it'll be weaponized and used against me. i see a lot of that going on now in the world. so i'm on guard against it. it's possible i'm too on guard. i don't know.

my greatest fear is the postmodern, social justice ideology being ushered in as a result of the recent tragedy with george floyd. in emphasizing that so much, i have likely missed some opportunities to express my compassionate, humanitarian side for those that are out there suffering in the world. i acknowledge that.

but i will always stand by my principles and my values. they're all i've got! it's been pretty heated here lately, and will get heated again i'm sure, but i respect you all. a little bit of guff and back and forth can be pretty cathartic if you make it to the other end without imploding. i think we're all doing pretty good there, despite the obvious tension.

[Mike]

Franny, you expressed all that beautifully. thanks for sharing about Dora!

I hadn't seen that part about Mark until I read it just there. That made me queasy. It's absolutely demoralizing. The behavior of those people was detestable.

I think there is a story behind the stats and the data that reflects both their validity and their tendency to mislead. they represent an imperfect tool we're all using as we stumble forward towards some sort of clearer understanding of what's going on in the country (and the world) today.

[Tam]

I wasn't going to mention it but as you bring up the 84% compared to 93%, that basically means more black people are attacking white people than white people attacking black. Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative. The majority of the killings though will just be down to circumstance with no race bases as with the white attacks on blacks, although on rare occasions they will happen

What an absolute load of bull****.

This is exactly why people here think you skirt the borders of racism. It's this kind of ignorance.

You're not a stupid person. You're not a bad person. No one here is trying to cancel anyone. But that was a stupid, bad thing to say, and I know you can do better, be better.

That 9% difference can be accounted for by one simple thing: poverty. And all the fun that it brings, like clockwork, in every place, ever, in the world. Broken homes. Substance abuse.

High crime rates.

The reason why there is black-on-black violence is because there is a much higher rate of poverty per capita in black people than there are in white people. Period.

So maybe, ask yourself, how is that the case?

And maybe then you will begin to understand why there's a BLM movement.

I know I'm borderline rude here, but seriously, I know you're better than this. It's why I'm pissed. You have been very lucid in the past. This is why your current opacity is so astounding. Where is this coming from?

[Matthew]

...
It's hard to believe what has happened to this forum. Hard to believe, disappointing and just sad. Half the members don't want to mask up, yet I can easily picture them in KKK gear.

Um wut? "..easily [half the forum] in KKK gear."?

Are you sure you can easily see half the forum in KKK gear? There's something wrong with that picture. Even with the clumsiest of phrasing I see on the forum sometimes, I don't see what you see

[greybeard]

Whatever it is. GET OVER IT.
So if you need a blood transfusion are you going to enquire where the blood comes from?

David Icke said "Forget your black"

My wife Rosaline --whom Im separated from is Black. ( the love still there) A Cameroonian.
Sometimes I think she took any work slight criticism as racist, I thought the criticism was work related and tactfully put.
Probably it would have been less tactful if she had been white.

Having had the joy of being married three times I can honestly say-- A woman is a woman, regardless of colour.
One Scottish--one Irish and one African.
All feminine in nature.

All are of the one Divine energy -- just individual reflections of THAT.
David Icke keeps hammering this home and people possibly dont hear that part of his talks.
Only love is real the rest an illusion. He says that.

So basically the only way forward is forget the colour of your skin-- forget identification with the story of "me" -- the concepts the labels and enjoy the unique consciousness that we all are and discover what you truly are beyond name and form.
Every spiritual teacher, Jesus, The Buddha, Shiva, all saying the same thing. You are the One. Just different ways of saying it.
Chris

[Gracy]

So basically the only way forward is forget the colour of your skin-- forget identification with the story of "me" -- the concepts the labels and enjoy the unique consciousness that we all are and discover what you truly are beyond name and form.
Every spiritual teacher, Jesus, The Buddha, Shiva, all saying the same thing. You are the One. Just different ways of saying it.
Chris


The teachers are of course correct, we are "IT" as Alan Watts would put it. All things being equal this is the way to go; but, if there's something about you, something you can't control, and because of that something you get treated differently than others, it's got to be kind of hard to forget about it.

Like what the pigs who control the government in the novel "Animal Farm" say:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Now the rest of the animals on Orwell's metaphoric farm can go around all day long telling themselves that things are equal, that it doesn't matter they're not one of the pigs, but they'd be fooling themselves.

Maybe it doesn't matter once they all shed they're 3D bodies, but it does matter here on the farm...

[enfoldedblue]

Unfortunately being able to forget skin color is not a priviledge every body has. If people eye you suspiciously when you walk into a store, if police stop you on your bike because they think you might be a drug dealer, if everytime you put on an bandaide it doesn't match....there are so many ways people of color get reminded everyday of their skin color. That is the problem.
Of course the answer is love... but there is something disturbing to me when we meet injustice with.... get over it....find enlightenment...everything is an illusion.... so no real problem....

[greybeard]

So basically the only way forward is forget the colour of your skin-- forget identification with the story of "me" -- the concepts the labels and enjoy the unique consciousness that we all are and discover what you truly are beyond name and form.
Every spiritual teacher, Jesus, The Buddha, Shiva, all saying the same thing. You are the One. Just different ways of saying it.
Chris


The teachers are of course correct, we are "IT" as Alan Watts would put it. All things being equal this is the way to go; but, if there's something about you, something you can't control, and because of that something you get treated differently than others, it's got to be kind of hard to forget about it.

Like what the pigs who control the government in the novel "Animal Farm" say:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Now the rest of the animals on Orwell's metaphoric farm can go around all day long telling themselves that things are equal, that it doesn't matter they're not one of the pigs, but they'd be fooling themselves.

Maybe it doesn't matter once they all shed they're 3D bodies, but it does matter here on the farm...

The thought that it matters is just a thought.

It takes time but through letting go of racism thoughts and all divisive thoughts every time they crop up a profound change will happen.

I dont have these thoughts now -- that does not mean I like every one, or that I condone anything.
I just accept people as they are.

Those that want to reduce the population can probably give a logical answers as to why they are right to use any means to achieve this and will attract like minded people.

The thing is to free of all wanting to identify with and belong to any group -- be free to be yourself.

As the saying goes "You can do it"
Chris

[Dorjezigzag]

I wasn't going to mention it but as you bring up the 84% compared to 93%, that basically means more black people are attacking white people than white people attacking black. Some of those attacks of blacks on whites will be racist attacks for instance they may have been incited by Marxists hell bent on race war who have been feeding the white privilege narrative. The majority of the killings though will just be down to circumstance with no race bases as with the white attacks on blacks, although on rare occasions they will happen

What an absolute load of bull****.

This is exactly why people here think you skirt the borders of racism. It's this kind of ignorance.

You're not a stupid person. You're not a bad person. No one here is trying to cancel anyone. But that was a stupid, bad thing to say, and I know you can do better, be better.

That 9% difference can be accounted for by one simple thing: poverty. And all the fun that it brings, like clockwork, in every place, ever, in the world. Broken homes. Substance abuse.

High crime rates.

The reason why there is black-on-black violence is because there is a much higher rate of poverty per capita in black people than there are in white people. Period.

So maybe, ask yourself, how is that the case?

And maybe then you will begin to understand why there's a BLM movement.

I know I'm borderline rude here, but seriously, I know you're better than this. It's why I'm pissed. You have been very lucid in the past. This is why your current opacity is so astounding. Where is this coming from?

Please refrain from from the personal insults, ignorance in the dictionary means
lack of knowledge or information.

All I have done here is present relevant and important information in order find more clarity on the situation. Your insistance on denying its relevance is ignorant.

I have actually withheld many relevant stats and information but if I presented them there would be a meltdown.

Do you really think I want to be the guy that presents these relevant stats, I know how people react especially in this climate. I honestly believe that when making a judgement on the current situation we need to present all sides. Thats why a court of law has a defence.

As for you skirting around calling me a racist, again how f*cking dare you. I could tell lots of stories about my great black friends and ex girlfriends,We have helped each other out of many a pickle.Ive sent most my life as a foreigner and outsider so I know it can be challenging,but I can assure you Europe and the USA has nothing on the racism experienced in much of the rest of the world.


and you are actually agreeing with what I said

I said most of the cases of attack were not to do with racisism they are to do with circumstance. Poverty is one of those circumstances that some black people find themselves in, but not exclusively so. It is just as challenging in the trailer parks as it is in the projects.

SO perhaps we can have a debate about wealth and class and not about race

[greybeard]

Unfortunately being able to forget skin color is not a priviledge every body has. If people eye you suspiciously when you walk into a store, if police stop you on your bike because they think you might be a drug dealer, if everytime you put on an bandaide it doesn't match....there are so many ways people of color get reminded everyday of their skin color. That is the problem.
Of course the answer is love... but there is something disturbing to me when we meet injustice with.... get over it....find enlightenment...everything is an illusion.... so no real problem....

I did not say there is no real problem.
Its not a privilege I had to work on my attitude.

The problem is people keep perpetuating the problem through seeing differences.

I have experienced extreme prejudice being the only baptised Catholic in the whole protestant school.
Everyone has there own cross to bear.
There are those making political points through all this with no concern what soever for the colour of a persons skin.

David Icke most recent talk covers this very well.
I would suggest watching it

I dont notice another person skin colour -- is it that difficult?
It starts with the individual and eventually the many will have no predudice..
Dont care about the many its down to the "you"


However everything under the sun except spirituality has been tried and failed.
Spirituality believes in stepping back and letting right action flow through.
Gandhi being a case in point -- that worked.

Chris

[Ernie Nemeth]

I wonder what it was like in Nazi Germany when any one with Jewish ancestry had to wear a star of David on their lapel...

which made me think what does ADL think of BLM:

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-lobby-sees-black-lives-matter-major-strategic-threat

this movement does have its silver lining

[Sarah Rainsong]

First, BLM is an AMERICAN movement that was intended to address system injustices in AMERICA. That is the point. There are many people on this board that are not Americans, and of course your input and views are not only welcome, they are important. But do not assume that what it is like in other countries is how it is in the US. That is as arrogant as Americans assuming they know all about the things that go on in your country. Please keep in mind that how it works in your country is most likely not the same as how it is here.

Now, to tell someone in America to "forget they're black" is DANGEROUS. If a black person in America forgets their black, if they act the same as white people, they could end up dead.

It really is that simple. And if you live in America and have not grasped that, then you have spent too much time in a bubble. There may be pockets of places where that's not the case, but that's all you're going to find: small pockets scattered against a huge problem that engulfs the whole country.

And that right there is the whole crux of the BLM and the point of this thread. All these other statistics anyone wants to throw out don't really matter. There are, after all, lies, d@mn lies, and statistics. Each "side" will be able to produce their own statistics. If you haven't spent some time talking and listening--actually conversing--with blacks here in America, you really don't have much room to talk.

BLM was started on social media. It's a simple phrase that's easily shared. Living in America as a black can get you killed... for no other reason than being black. It was intended as a rallying cry, not a divisive one. It was--and for most actual people, is--intended as a starting point to address systemic changes.

This forum, of all places, should really understand that danger. Not to us! But to the TPTB. They will never allow the people to rally against injustice. They will fight it tooth and nail. And how do they fight it? By pitting people against people. And so the left side takes things further than it was ever actually intended to go and the right responds by slamming the door against the whole thing.

And those of you that are so intent of slamming the door against BLM are just helping them along. Acknowledging the systemic problems that blacks face in America is the starting point. We should be discussing how to keep a genuine effort at addressing the injustices shoved on us by TPTB from being hijacked. We should be discussing what to do now that TPTB have obviously sent in their goons on both sides.

Let me say this again, TPTB are trying to keep us fighting each other by sending in their goons to stoke both sides and keep the focus off the real problem. And many of you are falling for their diversionary tactics. What do we do about that?

[Dorjezigzag]

Unfortunately being able to forget skin color is not a priviledge every body has. If people eye you suspiciously when you walk into a store, if police stop you on your bike because they think you might be a drug dealer, if everytime you put on an bandaide it doesn't match....there are so many ways people of color get reminded everyday of their skin color. That is the problem.
Of course the answer is love... but there is something disturbing to me when we meet injustice with.... get over it....find enlightenment...everything is an illusion.... so no real problem....

All my black friends are proud and feel privileged of their skin colour and so they should be. Someone wants to judge you for that, that is their problem and if they get too out of hand there are laws in place.

I can honestly say I take people as I find them, skin colour is immaterial, its what inside that counts

[Sarah Rainsong]

Unfortunately being able to forget skin color is not a priviledge every body has. If people eye you suspiciously when you walk into a store, if police stop you on your bike because they think you might be a drug dealer, if everytime you put on an bandaide it doesn't match....there are so many ways people of color get reminded everyday of their skin color. That is the problem.
Of course the answer is love... but there is something disturbing to me when we meet injustice with.... get over it....find enlightenment...everything is an illusion.... so no real problem....

All my black friends are proud and feel privileged of their skin colour and so they should be. Someone wants to judge you for that, that is their problem and if they get too out of hand there are laws in place.

I can honestly say I take people as I find them, skin colour is immaterial, its what inside that counts

That does not work in America. Being proud of your skin color or how your were born is one thing. Understanding that because of it, you are held to different standards is something else.

Getting judged is bad enough. Getting killed is something else.

This isn't about how YOU treat people! YOU are a decent a person.

This is about how the system is stacked against a certain skin color, or perhaps in favor of another. Those laws you speak of are only tools. When the system is corrupt, those laws will be used against you.

[Gracy]

First, BLM is an AMERICAN movement that was intended to address system injustices in AMERICA. That is the point. There are many people on this board that are not Americans, and of course your input and views are not only welcome, they are important. But do not assume that what it is like in other countries is how it is in the US. That is as arrogant as Americans assuming they know all about the things that go on in your country. Please keep in mind that how it works in your country is most likely not the same as how it is here.

Now, to tell someone in America to "forget they're black" is DANGEROUS. If a black person in America forgets their black, if they act the same as white people, they could end up dead.

Seems to me there are varying altitudes in which to view things. The most common view we generally try and take is the one from airline cruising altitude, in order to try and see more of the whole and complete picture.

That’s all fine and dandy, and I try to use that long view myself most of the time, but what if I need a crop duster? The view from cruising altitude is still useful to survey matters, but it can’t help you out with the bugs on your crops problem.

Yes, this sort of thing has happened all around the world at varying times, but in this time, in this particular instance, the problem is uniquely American.

Are people in other countries protesting by the thousands because they too have the same problem? No, I don’t think so, I think what they’re doing is standing in solidarity with their black American brothers and sisters. They’re looking at what’s going on here, what’s been going on here, and they don’t like it one single bit.

Right here, right now, it’s American black lives that matter. Yes there’s a bigger picture, but this particular part of the whole is demanding to be addressed.

[Ernie Nemeth]

And so the cancel culture creeps in. No ones' opinion matters, except blacks in America who agree with the sentiment and virtue signalers and sympathizers of all colors but white who can shut up and stand at the rear, the rest of the blacks are just Trump supporters and racist themselves.

[Gracy]

And so the cancel culture creeps in. No ones' opinion matters, except blacks in America who agree with the sentiment and virtue signalers and sympathizers of all colors but white who can shut up and stand at the rear, the rest of the blacks are just Trump supporters and racist themselves.

Hi Ernie. This can be a very emotional issue for all parties concerned, and we should all have a seat at the table. A posted quote showing what you’re referring to here would be a great help, because as of right now no one knows whether you’re referencing my previous post above, or someone else’s on down the line.

I can’t emphasize enough how vitally important clear, concise, and respectful communication is in sensitive matters like this. We can disagree and that’s fine, that’s what a forum like this is all about, hashing things out, but we really must know who, and what, is the disagreement based upon.

[greybeard]

GET OVER IT -- to qualify this was said because of what is going on in this thread.

To give a little more background to where im coming from.

45 years ago I went through suicidal extreme alcoholism.
After 9month hospitalisation I went to AA for years, there I was told "GET OVER IT" or die.
Every excuse that I wanted to use for my drinking would only take me back to the bottle.

I heard so many terrible stories night after night from fellow members.
I heard the success stories that encouraged me a day at a time.

At that time AA was very new and I was faced with everyone in the small town knowing my problem-- try to get a job with that hanging over you.
Polite smiles but no way.

Three young children and a mortgage --I could still play in pubs at night but that was hard.

What Im saying is regardless of racism, victimisation --you name, it some will overcome it from the most humble and difficult situation.

The future is in the individuals hands.
Rise above it.

Thats my story I am not the story.
Chris

[Mike]

I think the reason I've struggled to find a balance between empathy for those who are genuinely oppressed and my more pragmatic, cynical side, is because of the way things are arranged now socially.

a) It's difficult to parse out who the genuinely oppressed and suffering are vis a vis those who are merely grandstanding. Social justice often hides it's lust for power in notions of compassion. So even as I'm finding myself wanting to extend an olive branch, I'm also very wary of empowering the wrong people

b) I fear that to express sympathy for, say, BLM, is to also imply my tacit approval for such deplorable concepts as "white frailty", "white privilege", "white supremacy", "equity, diversity, and inclusivity", and so on.

In my view, those are all Orwellian concepts that often mean the exact opposite of that they appear to mean.

I DO understand why they appeal to compassionate people. I get that! Because, what kind of fair-minded and kind person wouldn't want equality?

Here's a question though, and I'm asking this in good faith. I've asked it before and no one will touch it. Hand on my heart: I don't mean this to sound condescending or any such thing. I've only just uncovered some of this for myself recently, so no judgements on those who are a bit in the dark...

..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome. To understand why equality of outcome doctrines are so dangerous, you have to know a bit about history. And if you don't know a bit about history, you are likely going to think that those offering up concerns for such concepts are racist and bigoted..

..and those that you are accusing of racism and bigotry are going to accuse you of historical ignorance. And around and around we go....

Not very productive.

So, it might be productive for us to meet in the middle somewhere. Those of us that are harping about social justice and equality of outcome doctrines have to learn to let it go sometimes and just offer our sympathies for those who are genuinely suffering and oppressed. And those who don't quite understand what equality of outcome doctrines are might want to read up about it a little (see: Mao and Stalin)

Many of us are viewing this from the extremes. That's what we're all most frightened of so it's understandable in that sense. I'm guilty of this too. Taken to it's extreme, racism brings us things like the KKK, and Hitler. On the flip side, taken to the extreme, social justice-postmodern-neo marxism offers us Mao and Stalin as historical examples. In our debates, we're viewing each other as Hitler's and Mao's and Stalin's, and not the intellectually reasonable and heart-centered people most of us actually are.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Hi Ernie. This can be a very emotional issue for all parties concerned, and we should all have a seat at the table. A posted quote showing what you’re referring to here would be a great help, because as of right now no one knows whether you’re referencing my previous post above, or someone else’s on down the line.

I can’t emphasize enough how vitally important clear, concise, and respectful communication is in sensitive matters like this. We can disagree and that’s fine, that’s what a forum like this is all about, hashing things out, but we really must know who, and what, is the disagreement based upon.

I could be specific but choose not to be.

It applies just as well in a general sense, from what we've all seen in these video clips. Representation in CHOP is limited to black males and females, white women, children of color - preferably handicapped, with special mention to every single Asian minority except American males of Oriental decent. Whites being forced to take a knee, whites asked to stand at the back during important discussions, occupying cities through violence, cancelling voices of any naysayers of any origin, labeling counter views as racist, losing jobs for voicing one's opinion, slanted reporting fomenting violence and division, and many more assaults on so-called civilized life. Not to mention the Marxist ideology of the leaders and their major supporters. That's communism in its extreme. That should be a hate word in America especially, considering the constitution.

The point is no discussion is sought. And some opinions matter more than others. That is the ideology of communism too. It is that ideology I oppose. If my opinion is superseded by another then we are surely not equal and can never be equal because the distinction is part of the concession. It is like having a constitution that begins by stating the rights of everyone and then a special section reserving extra rights for a select minority. It cannot work and renders the declaration moot.

If true and lasting change is sought it must be inclusive.

[Catsquotl]

...

..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome.
Not very productive.
.

I am not an activist. That said a chumbawamba song phrase it like this. "When the system starts to crack, we have to be ready to give it all back."

As for the equality of outcome.. I've spend a few days watching many a Jordan Peterson video, discussions and interview. I think he has a double agenda and confuses his conclusions with the historical outcomes. Like he says it's difficult.

In my understanding though the willingness to give back is different than a totalitarian regime made arbiter of said back giving.

Are we ready to give it all back?

[Gemma13]

Although this was written in the '90's by Thomas Sowell I believe it is worth contributing to the discussions of today.


THE QUEST FOR COSMIC JUSTICE
by Thomas Sowell

    When you try to condense a book representing years of thought and research into a half-hour talk, a certain amount of over-simplification is inevitable.  With that understood, let me try to summarize the message of The Quest for Cosmic Justice in three propositions which may seem to be axiomatic, but whose implications are in fact politically controversial:

1. The impossible is not going to be achieved.
2. It is a waste of precious resources to try to achieve it.
3. The devastating costs and social dangers which go with these attempts to achieve the impossible should be taken into account.

    Cosmic justice is one of the impossible dreams which has a very high cost and very dangerous potentialities.
    What is cosmic justice and how does it differ from more traditional conceptions of justice-- and from the more recent and more fervently sought "social justice"?

    Traditional concepts of justice or fairness, at least within the American tradition, boil down to applying the same rules and standards to everyone.  This is what is meant by a "level playing field"-- at least within that tradition, though the very same words mean something radically different within a framework that calls itself "social justice."  Words like "fairness," "advantage" and "disadvantage" likewise have radically different meanings within the very different frameworks of traditional justice and "social justice."

    John Rawls perhaps best summarized the differences when he distinguished "fair" equality of opportunity from merely "formal" equality of opportunity. Traditional justice, fairness, or equality of opportunity are merely formal in Professor Rawls' view and in the view of his many followers and comrades.  For those with this view, "genuine equality of opportunity" cannot be achieved by the application of the same rules and standards to all, but requires specific interventions to equalize either prospects or results.  As Rawls puts it, "undeserved inequalities call for redress."

    A fight in which both boxers observe the Marquis of Queensberry rules would be a fair fight, according to traditional standards of fairness, irrespective of whether the contestants were of equal skill, strength, experience or other factors likely to affect the outcome-- and irrespective of whether that outcome was a hard-fought draw or a completely one-sided beating.

    This would not, however, be a fair fight within the framework of those seeking "social justice," if the competing fighters came into the ring with very different prospects of success-- especially if these differences were due to factors beyond their control.

    Presumably, the vast ranges of undeserved inequalities found everywhere are the fault of "society" and so the redressing of those inequalities is called social justice, going beyond the traditional justice of presenting each individual with the same rules and standards.  However, even those who argue this way often recognize that some undeserved inequalities may arise from cultural differences, family genes, or from historical confluences of events not controlled by anybody or by any given society at any given time.  For example, there was no way that Pee Wee Reese was going to hit as many home runs as Mark McGwire, or Shirley Temple run as fast as Jesse Owens.  There was no way that Scandinavians or Polynesians were going to know as much about camels as the Bedouins of the Sahara-- and no way that these Bedouins were going to know as much about fishing as the Scandinavians or Polynesians.

    In a sense, proponents of "social justice" are unduly modest.  What they are seeking to correct are not merely the deficiencies of society, but of the cosmos. What they call social justice encompasses far more than any given society is causally responsible for.  Crusaders for social justice seek to correct not merely the sins of man but the oversights of God or the accidents of history.  What they are really seeking is a universe tailor-made to their vision of equality.  They are seeking cosmic justice.

    This perspective on justice can be found in a wide range of activities and places, from the street-corner community activist to the august judicial chambers of the Supreme Court.  For example, a former dean of admissions at Stanford University said that she had never required applicants to submit Achievement Test scores because "requiring such tests could unfairly penalize disadvantaged students in the college admissions process," because such students, "through no fault of their own, often find themselves in high schools that provide inadequate preparation for the Achievement Tests."1  Through no fault of their own-- one of the recurrent phrases in this kind of argument-- seems to imply that it is the fault of "society" but remedies are sought independently of any empirical evidence that it is.

    Let me try to illustrate some of the problems with this approach by a mundane personal example.  Whenever I hear discussions of fairness in education, my automatic response is: "Thank God my teachers were unfair to me when I was a kid growing up in Harlem."  One of these teachers was a lady named Miss Simon, who was from what might be called the General Patton school of education. Every word that we misspelled in class had to be written 50 times-- not in class, but in our homework that was due the next morning, on top of all the other homework that she and other teachers loaded onto us.  Misspell four or five words and you had quite an evening ahead of you.

    Was this fair?  Of course not.  Like many of the children in Harlem at that time, I came from a family where no one had been educated beyond elementary school.  We could not afford to buy books and magazines, like children in more affluent neighborhood schools, so we were far less likely to be familiar with these words that we were required to write 50 times.

    But fairness in this cosmic sense was never an option.  As noted at the outset, the impossible is not going to be achieved.  Nothing that the schools could do would make things fair in this sense.  It would have been an irresponsible self-indulgence for them to have pretended to make things fair.  Far worse than unfairness is make-believe fairness.  Instead, they forced us to meet standards that were harder for us to meet-- but far more necessary for us to meet, as these were the main avenues for our escape from poverty.

    Many years later, I happened to run into one of my Harlem schoolmates on the streets of San Francisco. He was now a psychiatrist and owned a home and property out in the Napa valley.  As we reminisced about the past and caught up on things that had happened to us in between, he mentioned that his various secretaries over the years had commented on the fact that he seldom misspelled a word.  My secretaries have made the same comment-- but, if they knew Miss Simon, it would be no mystery why we seldom misspelled words.

    It so happens that I was a high school dropout.  But what I was taught before I dropped out was enough for me to score higher on the verbal SAT than the average Harvard student.  That may well have had something to do with my being admitted to Harvard in an era before the concept of "affirmative action" was conceived.

    What if our teachers had been imbued with the present-day conception of "fairness"?  Clearly we would not have been tested with the same tests and held to standards as other kids in higher-income neighborhoods, whose parents had at least twice as many years of schooling as ours and probably much more than twice as much money.  And where would my schoolmate and I have ended up? Perhaps in some half-way house, if we were lucky.

    And would that not have been an injustice-- to take individuals capable of being independent, self-supporting, and self-directed men and women, with pride in their own achievements, and turn them into dependents, clients, supplicants, mascots?  Currently, the Educational Testing Service is adopting minority students as mascots by turning the SAT exams into race-normed instruments to circumvent the growing number of prohibitions against group preferences.  The primary purpose of mascots is to symbolize something that makes others feel good.  The well-being of the mascot himself is seldom a major consideration.

    The argument here is not against real justice or real equality.  Both of these things are desirable in themselves, just as immortality may be considered desirable in itself.  The only arguments against any of these things is that they are impossible-- and the cost of pursuing impossible dreams are not negligible.

    Socially counterproductive policies are just one of the many costs of the quest for cosmic justice.  The rule of law, on which a free society depends, is inherently incompatible with cosmic justice.  Laws exist in all kinds of societies, from the freest to the most totalitarian.  But the rule of law-- a government of laws and not of men, as it used to be called-- is rare and vulnerable.  You cannot redress the myriad inequalities which pervade human life by applying the same rules to all or by applying any rules other than the arbitrary dispensations of those in power.  The final chapter of The Quest for Cosmic Justice is titled "The Quiet Repeal of the American Revolution"-- because that is what is happening piecemeal by zealots devoted to their own particular applications of cosmic justice.

    They are not trying to destroy the rule of law.  They are not trying to undermine the American republic.  They are simply trying to produce "gender equity," institutions that "look like America" or a thousand other goals that are incompatible with the rule of law, but corollaries of cosmic justice.

    Because ordinary Americans have not yet abandoned traditional justice, those who seek cosmic justice must try to justify it politically as meeting traditional concepts of justice.  A failure to achieve the new vision of justice must be represented to the public and to the courts as "discrimination." Tests that register the results of innumerable inequalities must be represented as being the cause of those inequalities or as deliberate efforts to perpetuate those inequalities by erecting arbitrary barriers to the advancement of the less fortunate.

    In short, to promote cosmic justice, they must misrepresent what is happening as violations of traditional justice-- as understood by others who do not share their vision.  Nor do those who make such claims necessarily believe them themselves.  As Joseph Schumpeter once said: "The first thing a man will do for his ideals is lie."

    The next thing the idealist will do is character assassination.  All those who disagree with the great vision must be shown to have malign intentions, if not deep-seated character flaws.  They must be "Borked," to use a verb coined in our times.  They must be depicted as "A Strange Justice" if somehow they survive the Borking process.  They must be depicted as having some personal "obsessions" if they carry out the duties they swore to carry out as a special prosecutor.  In short, demonization is one of the costs of the quest for cosmic justice.

    The victims of this process are not limited to those targeted.  The society as a whole loses when its decisions are made by character assassination, rather than by rational discussion, and when its pool of those eligible for leadership is drained by the exodus of those who are not prepared to sacrifice their good name or subject their family to humiliations for the sake of grasping the levers of power.  This loss is not merely quantitative, for those who are willing to endure any personal or family humiliations for the sake of power are the most dangerous people to trust with power.

    In a sense, those caught up in the vision of cosmic justice are also among its victims.  Having committed themselves to a vision and demonized all who oppose it, how are they to turn around and subject that vision to searching empirical scrutiny, much less repudiate it as evidence of its counterproductive results mount up?

    Ironically, the quest for greater economic and social equality is promoted through a far greater inequality of political power.  If rules cannot produce cosmic justice, only raw power is left as the way to produce the kinds of results being sought.  In a democracy, where power must gain public acquiescence, not only must the rule of law be violated or circumvented, so must the rule of truth.  However noble the vision of cosmic justice, arbitrary power and shameless lies are the only paths that even seem to lead in its direction.  As noted at the outset, the devastating costs and social dangers which go with these attempts to achieve the impossible should be taken into account.

[AutumnW]

...
It's hard to believe what has happened to this forum. Hard to believe, disappointing and just sad. Half the members don't want to mask up, yet I can easily picture them in KKK gear.

Um wut? "..easily [half the forum] in KKK gear."?

Are you sure you can easily see half the forum in KKK gear? There's something wrong with that picture. Even with the clumsiest of phrasing I see on the forum sometimes, I don't see what you see

I was exaggerating to make a point...however YOYoYo... even a compassionate person can be incrementally moved toward authoritarianism under the rubric of "free speech" It's like violent pornography. It's legal. It's currently protected under "free speech" but someone is still getting screwed.

People who are politically saavy or who have some measure of common sense understand what it might look like if freedom of speech were curtailed. But you have to have more than common sense to understand what it looks like when it's not.

That requires a fairly intimate understanding of propaganda and the history of oppression and mob violence and/or mob complicity in violence. Fairly recent European history is instructive.

The propaganda about the Jews was rife with complete and utter bull****. Many Germans believed that Jews sacrificed children, that they were demonic. They were in total control, behind the scenes. Good Germans ate it up. Were they SS, were they all goose stepping? Hardly. Many of them were compassionate lovely people who had finally identified the enemy Does this sound a bit like the alt right propaganda against "liberuls" Damn right.

I detest Hillary Clinton as much as anybody, but the whole Q clusterf*** bs about her participation in blood rituals, child sacrifice etc...so harkens back to the process of demonization of Jews. It wasn't enough that she was directly responsible for overt death of children and adults "over there somewhere." That's not close enough to home for propagandists. It has to be on home soil and it should involve children.

Because the loony left have been conflated with traditional liberals, through propaganda outlets like the Drudge report, Fox news, and social media vortexes, there are a significant minority of individuals who have an exaggerated perception of threat coming from the left, while the real threat is right wing fascism. This has always been the case in the U.S, since Kennedy's assasination. This is the little secret you're not supposed to focus on.

Who has the biggest guns, who owns the judiciary, the military, etc...It's not BLM. To ignore the reality and buy the current alt right zietgiest. (Heck I don't know how to spell that!) has placed some in KKK garb, unfortunately. The focus is taken off the real problems of murder by cop, and placed it in a context where the central reality and cruelty of that situation is either minimized or lost.

[AutumnW]

Hi Ernie. This can be a very emotional issue for all parties concerned, and we should all have a seat at the table. A posted quote showing what you’re referring to here would be a great help, because as of right now no one knows whether you’re referencing my previous post above, or someone else’s on down the line.

I can’t emphasize enough how vitally important clear, concise, and respectful communication is in sensitive matters like this. We can disagree and that’s fine, that’s what a forum like this is all about, hashing things out, but we really must know who, and what, is the disagreement based upon.

I could be specific but choose not to be.

It applies just as well in a general sense, from what we've all seen in these video clips. Representation in CHOP is limited to black males and females, white women, children of color - preferably handicapped, with special mention to every single Asian minority except American males of Oriental decent. Whites being forced to take a knee, whites asked to stand at the back during important discussions, occupying cities through violence, cancelling voices of any naysayers of any origin, labeling counter views as racist, losing jobs for voicing one's opinion, slanted reporting fomenting violence and division, and many more assaults on so-called civilized life. Not to mention the Marxist ideology of the leaders and their major supporters. That's communism in its extreme. That should be a hate word in America especially, considering the constitution.

The point is no discussion is sought. And some opinions matter more than others. That is the ideology of communism too. It is that ideology I oppose. If my opinion is superseded by another then we are surely not equal and can never be equal because the distinction is part of the concession. It is like having a constitution that begins by stating the rights of everyone and then a special section reserving extra rights for a select minority. It cannot work and renders the declaration moot.

If true and lasting change is sought it must be inclusive.

I'm sure some of this is happening, Ernie, but could you please provide a link as to where you found this information? Thanks bro.

[AutumnW]

Hi MIke,

You asked:

..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome. To understand why equality of outcome doctrines are so dangerous, you have to know a bit about history. And if you don't know a bit about history, you are likely going to think that those offering up concerns for such concepts are racist and bigoted..

This IS a dangerous concept and one that radical feminists and manipulators on the left have down to a science, in terms of gaining political leverage wherever they can. True. And any nitwit SJW who is using BLM, which is about actual police and judicial reform, to further their own personal lust for power should be slapped down.

Then, you also have people in the alt right community and MSM outlets like Fox who leverage power from the dynamic that you just described, seeking to place all racial and minority grievances in the same camp with radical feminism, gender issue nuttiness, and racial issue hair splitting.

The reality lies outside of the propaganda vortex and focus needs to be placed on compassion, first and foremost-- for those being jailed and killed unnecessarily.

Who benefits from the confusion and the ensuing cluster****? My intuition tells me that the military will have their budgets increased. The police could become further militarized to the point that the clear line between military and police, already blurred, could become completely obscured, in the "interests of national security."

Does this mean that blacks shouldn't protest as it will backfire? Personally, I feel they have to protest as nothing is so set in stone it can't be changed. Also, there are some in the military who will refuse to go along with anything that completely reverses the posse comitatus act. The schisms within the military itself will be intriguing to witness, as they are becoming more overt.

[Matthew]

...:dancing:...

That makes sense, I'm glad to double check. Even so, exaggeration may well possibly be part of how it starts to grow out of hand like you were describing.

I've been looking for cerebral discussions on this subject, there's not much I can find tbh, but here's one:

Bearing in mind there are cultural differences between the USA and the UK with this issue; here in the UK we have exceptionally few police killings for example. Here a couple of Brits talk to an American.


Trigger-nometry

We Are in a Moral Panic: Coleman Hughes

Mtjuf_RxsLA

[AutumnW]

Yo yo yo,

Quick question before I watch. Are Coleman Hughes opinions aligned with "conservative" values?

Okay, just listened to a few seconds. He is spouting typical right wing nonsense talking points.

He is the personification of what you want to avoid. The very "voice of reason" coming from an actual black person...as if they speak for the black community. And, he is factually incorrect. In terms of percentages, there are way more black people murdered by cops than white people killed by cops.

Fade this jerk.

[Matthew]

Yo yo yo,

Quick question before I watch. Are Coleman Hughes opinions aligned with "conservative" values?

Here's a snippet from memory:


Brits question: "Are BLM, in general, a force for good"

Coleman Hughes answer: "Yes because of [list of specific reforms here] wouldn't have happened in 2015 without the attention BLM brought, [and most people at those gatherings have seen the video, and think, yes I don't like what I see, I want to do the right thing, they don't know or care about BLMs radical manifesto, but there are some there that go all the way, but most are non radical]"

I got carried away there... corrections welcome

[AutumnW]

YoYo Yo, Coleman Hughes said just as many white people are killed by cops as black people. No context, no mention of percentages. That's the take away. Forget what he said that was honest. Disinfo is always packaged with what looks to be logical and possibly even compassionate.

[Matthew]

I heard Hughes bring a more holistic look at the police situation, but I don't remember him denying racism.

[Mike]

Hi MIke,

You asked:

..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome. To understand why equality of outcome doctrines are so dangerous, you have to know a bit about history. And if you don't know a bit about history, you are likely going to think that those offering up concerns for such concepts are racist and bigoted..

This IS a dangerous concept and one that radical feminists and manipulators on the left have down to a science, in terms of gaining political leverage wherever they can. True. And any nitwit SJW who is using BLM, which is about actual police and judicial reform, to further their own personal lust for power should be slapped down.

Then, you also have people in the alt right community and MSM outlets like Fox who leverage power from the dynamic that you just described, seeking to place all racial and minority grievances in the same camp with radical feminism, gender issue nuttiness, and racial issue hair splitting.

The reality lies outside of the propaganda vortex and focus needs to be placed on compassion, first and foremost-- for those being jailed and killed unnecessarily.

Who benefits from the confusion and the ensuing cluster****? My intuition tells me that the military will have their budgets increased. The police could become further militarized to the point that the clear line between military and police, already blurred, could become completely obscured, in the "interests of national security."

Does this mean that blacks shouldn't protest as it will backfire? Personally, I feel they have to protest as nothing is so set in stone it can't be changed. Also, there are some in the military who will refuse to go along with anything that completely reverses the posse comitatus act. The schisms within the military itself will be intriguing to witness, as they are becoming more overt.


I just want to say - before I say anything else in this post - just in case there is any doubt lingering in anyone's mind: my issues have never ever been with black people, trans people or feminists. My issues are with, and always have been with the radical activist types. They just happen to set up camp in these areas. Regardless of what they're protesting, they always offer the same twisted, destructive ideology.

It is my opinion - based on history, based on what I've read, and based on what I've observed - that this social justice, postmodern neo-marxism being fast tracked in now is infinitely more dangerous than racism. I hope I'm wrong!

But that's why my focus has primarily been on that.

It's always been my feeling that our highest value has to be truth, even over compassion. Because in a tricky situation like this, it's important to know where our compassion should be directed first. It's clear we should be offering compassion to George Floyd and his family, but beyond that it all gets a little murky for me

This might be a sacrilegious statement, particularly on this thread, but we don't even know if racism was Chauvin's motivation for killing Floyd. We now know that they had some beef. Perhaps Chauvin is just a sick, power-tripping, sociopathic f#ck who would have killed anyone he disliked in that particular situation. We don't know.

We also don't know why police shoot blacks at a higher rate than whites. Is it because they're black? Or is it because the blacks that are getting shot tend to live in impoverished, high crime areas? And we don't know exactly why a significant percentage of blacks are living in these impoverished, high crime areas. We don't know exactly where the blame lies for that.

Racism is the easy answer. It's quick. It's simple. It answers everything cleanly. We know who the good guys and the bad guys are in a situation like that. People like that. It gives them a place to direct all their emotional energies. But you never do a univariate analysis to determine the cause of such complex issues. It's way too complex. We know racism exists, and we know it plays a role in these things, but if we approach it all univariately we'll never know the degree to which it is responsible for such things. And, most importantly, what to do and what not to do about it all

So, before we get too emotional, we have to know the truth first, imo. We have the extreme left saying it's all about race, and the extreme right saying it's very little to do with race. The answer is likely somewhere in the middle. And that's what I'm interested in, that middle.

But in the current climate, the middle appears to represent the radical right to many left leaning folks. If you reject that racism, exclusively, is the reason for all of this, and question the motives and actions of BLM, you're not only attacked ruthlessly and called all sorts of unpleasant names, you could very likely lose your job too. There is no room for dissent, and I find that highly disturbing.

I'm no fan of the far right. At all. The reason I'm going after the left here is because they are holding all the power, in nearly all dimensions. And I think they're going way too far with the identity politics games and the social justice, postmodern stunts

I fear BLM has set themselves up as a quasi religion, and any sort of compassion offered from whites has to go thru them, and has to be in the form of a confession. That's the problem here. You have to prostrate yourself, and confess to your hypothetical sins; you have to accept the doctrine of white privilege, white supremacy, etc. Anything less is unacceptable, and makes you "part of the problem". And even if you do confess to all this crap in the kangaroo court of social justice public opinion, you will still be regarded as sh!t..because the most angry and bitter and resentful of the activists don't want to forgive anyone. They just want to carry on being angry and bitter, to justify what they proclaim are purely racial injustices.

So, offering compassion often means getting tangled up in a web of several catch 22's. Not offering compassion also puts one in a catch-22. So, what to do?

As far as the police, I'm much more worried about them becoming defunded or disbanded than militarized. I'm all for police protocol opening itself up for change; I think that needs to happen. From where I'm sitting, there is quite a bit of police violence that could be lessened or stopped altogether. I don't understand why they shoot to kill, when, if they have to shoot at all, they don't shoot to immobilize first. I think there are deescalation techniques they could implement. I think they need to be trained in some fighting disciplines, so as to make guns less necessary. I think they may need to be completely retrained. And that would actually require more funds, not less. I dunno, just brainstorming here

[Gemma13]

I pretty much see things the same as your last post Mike, at this point in time.

I've also pondered the shoot to kill, or disable idea, and I think shooting to kill is cheaper. States would have to pay for medical costs. Don't think they would get out of that one especially as most criminals probably couldn't afford the bills. So sadly I don't imagine that protocol will change.

[Catsquotl]

So, offering compassion often means getting tangled up in a web of several catch 22's. Not offering compassion also puts one in a catch-22. So, what to do?



Here's an idea.
IXOLlSNXx_M

I am trying to see where you are coming from mike, and after a few days of immersing myself in Jordan Peterson rhetoric which I see you use as a basis for your arguments I think that you as well as Jordan convolute different ideas.

We all love our mother (well most people do anyway) With Hitler instantiating mothers day did we stop fighting fascism?
Now with All the Black Life Matter protests. Does the message change now that it appears as if Antifa and other "possibly violent" groups use it as a ground to push their own agenda"s. I honestly don't think so.

If not george floyd, look at Breonna Taylor's death. And there are countless others.
You stated before to take a look at the deaths to see if it were black on black or white on black killings. I did and wondered.
Does the fact that which race kill a black man make a difference? I don't think so.

Black lifes do matter, And at this time in our current worldly **** show I am convinced that we can hold space for just that idea without disregarding the other stuff that matters also.
The one does not exclude the other or poses the definite threat of another genocide where whites are usurped by blacks..

With Love
Eelco

[Gracy]

BLM was started on social media. It's a simple phrase that's easily shared. Living in America as a black can get you killed... for no other reason than being black. It was intended as a rallying cry, not a divisive one. It was--and for most actual people, is--intended as a starting point to address systemic changes.

And yes, it has been hijacked, but not nearly to the extent as it's often portrayed. What in the hell does Antifa have to do with police brutality for instance? And who was strategically placing those pallets full of bricks for them? Now we have this weird Maoist type anarchist subculture tagging along for the ride, not mention the already present, but ever ridiculous, woke culture.


This forum, of all places, should really understand that danger. Not to us! But to the TPTB. They will never allow the people to rally against injustice. They will fight it tooth and nail. And how do they fight it? By pitting people against people. And so the left side takes things further than it was ever actually intended to go and the right responds by slamming the door against the whole thing.

And those of you that are so intent of slamming the door against BLM are just helping them along. Acknowledging the systemic problems that blacks face in America is the starting point. We should be discussing how to keep a genuine effort at addressing the injustices shoved on us by TPTB from being hijacked. We should be discussing what to do now that TPTB have obviously sent in their goons on both sides.

Here's a good, ongoing example of this: CHOP in Seattle. Watch MSNBC, and they're making out to something akin to tailgaters before a Grateful Dead concert. It's not.

Watch FOX NEWS, and the CHICOM infiltrators now have a beach head in their long awaited march to turn America Communist. It's not that either.

Now if I tell the MSNBC stalwart that this is not just a nice lil street party, I'm automatically an enemy from the crazy right winger camp. If I tell the FOX NEWS stalwart that this is not a CHICOM beach head, why I'm automatically in the crazy left winger camp.

This is but one of the myriad of ways we're being divided on this.

Why can't we just look at it for what it is? And again, whatever happened to the peaceful police brutality protesters? Well again they're being marginalized, and the closest we usually are shown are the bad apples amongst them, the rioters and looters.

In the US, one is almost forced to choose a side. Once you have chosen a side, you are on the side of the righteous cause, and the other side is the deadly wild beast that must be defeated at all cost. This mindset allows for zero introspection, very little nuance, and never ever ever the two sides shall meet.

Divide and Conquer 101.


..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome.

Well first off Mike, who is the "activist" being asked the question of what equity means? Activist Martin Luther King will tell you the answer is we judge a man by the content of his character, not the color of his skin, and that equity means equal opportunity for all.

Activist Woke Culture will tell you the answer is equity of outcome.


Many of us are viewing this from the extremes. That's what we're all most frightened of so it's understandable in that sense. I'm guilty of this too. Taken to it's extreme, racism brings us things like the KKK, and Hitler. On the flip side, taken to the extreme, social justice-postmodern-neo marxism offers us Mao and Stalin as historical examples. In our debates, we're viewing each other as Hitler's and Mao's and Stalin's, and not the intellectually reasonable and heart-centered people most of us actually are.

Yes, exactly what I'm getting at. And I don't think it's by accident that many of us feel so compelled to have to choose one extreme or the other. I'm having none of it that my choices are, as you put it, between "KKK and Hitler" on one side, and "extreme, social justice-postmodern-neo Marxism" on the flip side.

Nonsense!

I'm also having none of it with my choice either being defund the police, or carry on as usual.

Nonsense!

What about real, substantial police reform, even if it costs more money.

This is where we become paralyzed, the great divide between extremes. And again, through all of this, look who's still only being shown little notice, and getting only lip service? The people still protesting the original problem, police brutality.

Speaking of which, I highly recommend watching just 10 minutes of this video (from 2:00 - 12:00), of ex Navy Seal Jocko Willing describing to Joe Rogan how police should, be trained.
iUhdc1GAddk

[Ernie Nemeth]

You know what?

I no longer believe this is an issue at all.

Also, the movement is far smaller than it is made out to be. Not even the young are this naive. There are, as usual, a few dedicated individuals, the rest are just followers who don't even know what the issues are. If it wasn't for the organized assault of the media in general, it would be a quaint side-bar on the fifth page of newspapers. Agitators try to highjack BLM movement but fail, the head line would read.

And we'd clean up the streets and move on. But no, the media slams us upside the head every day about it, as if we didn't know BLM! Or that the police don't know it. Or Trump don't know it. There is a problem alright, we all know it. But it is way beyond BLM to address it or deal with it. Should I bring up MLK? Black Panthers? Would they do this? Well maybe. But they would not do it associated with Soros or Antifa or OAC.

BLM, the organization. Nope. BLM as a statement of fact, yes.
End of story, for me anyway.

[Mike]

hey Catsquotyl, I'm glad you're exposing yourself to Jordan Peterson. That's cool. And I'm glad you're challenging his ideas too. Even cooler. I respect that.:thumbsup:

I'm a huge fan of his, that's true. But, aside from my own brain, my ideas come from a wide variety of people. Most of them are under the loose umbrella of the "intellectual dark web". Peterson just happens to be the most well known. There's also Bret Weinstein, Eric Weinstein, Heather Heying, Helen Pluckrose, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan, Christina Hoff Summers, Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, Douglas Murray, and on and on. It's a long list!

I also am influenced by Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Jung, Bukowski, Hemingway, and many other people I've read over the years.

As far as who is killing who, black on black, white on white etc, you're right: ultimately, citing statistics hardly matters in the immediate aftermath of tragedies like Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. Compassion is the only appropriate response. But, if we're going to play fast and loose with the racial blame game in the ensuing weeks, the statistics become relevant again.

Hey just curious: did you ever attend the protest with your daughter?

[Catsquotl]

Yes. Just returned 20 minutes ago.
Only violence I witnessed were some racist comment made on social media to come disrupt this demonstration and **** up some black people.

But I think they all went to the haque, to beat up on copes because a demo there against covid-19 regulations was cancelled.

With Love

[Orph]

hey Catsquotyl, I'm glad you're exposing yourself to Jordan Peterson. That's cool.

It's also a bit creepy. And under certain circumstances can get him thrown in jail.

See, this is a good example of how communication via computer verses talking to someone face to face can lead to misunderstandings and possibly arguments. (Just a reminder).
:focus:

[Tintin]

Before I post my own considered views on this important thread I wondered for a moment that some of the extraordinarily pertinent observations in this piece may serve as a locus. And as a means to restoring some intellectual balance. Do note that I do not consider myself either 'left' or 'right'.

Published in the American Conservative - ah, I can feel one or two already wincing ( :) ) - but do stick with it; more than one or two paragraphs here are worthy of understanding as thoroughly as possible before we further disappear into the pandemic intellectual quicksand currently engulfing us. If we can arrest that decline in some small way, we may be making some progress.

Some have expressed concerns about perceived 'rightist' leanings, others, like myself am extraordinarily vigilant where it concerns 'leftist' leanings that may now have, indeed, gone too far.

In deference to the intent of the thread OP I'd propose that one of the greatest 'dangers' is the adoption of extraordinarily flawed and weaponised ideologies as a vehicle. (I might caution against hitching your wagon to anything that might impair the optimal functioning of a free mind.). Just one reason why I personally don't do movements or join any of them. Really, I just don't. Ironic when you consider that in many respects the Avalon Forum could well be considered one; one that is trying to get to the Truth, whatever that may be.

(In this article references to teleological arguments are made, being, an argument for an intelligent design from a creator source based upon the perceived evidence - it isn't an unscientific viewpoint, rather incorporates that in its assertion.)

___________________________



"Moreover, with due respect to Woodlief and Kendall, those who support Antifa and Black Lives Matter have hardly failed to recognize that there is “Truth” in the world. They simply reject the moral right of their enemies to express other views. This is a moral stand, hardly a relativistic one, and it is a political-existential one, in the sense in which Carl Schmitt understood “the Concept of the Political” as the most intensely antagonistic of human relationships. It is unimaginable that the more fervent and more activist side in our culture wars is not driven by its own morality, which expresses itself in rage.

One might also question whether the Left has ever believed consistently in something called “moral relativism” or whether it has merely appealed to it as a tactic to disarm opponents. Certainly the pro-communist leftists with whom Kendall debated were not likely to “relativize” Nazism or even the Francoist regime in Spain or South African Apartheid the way they did Soviet tyranny."

The Left Has Gone Far Beyond ‘Relativism’

Theirs is a moral crusade, with offending opinions and ways of life---all Western---to be stamped out.
JUNE 19, 2020|1:14 PM by Paul Gottfried

https://2qkhyt1u78lw1ll02a1kxrzq-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/shutterstock_86698255-1.jpg

Around the middle of the last century, American conservatives came to regard “relativism” as an essential characteristic of the Left.

Political theorist and onetime Yale professor Willmoore Kendall, who had been the teacher of William F. Buckley, was the best-known exponent of this position. Kendall was particularly concerned that liberals in post-World War II America were unwilling to stand up to communist infiltration and Soviet aggression, at least not in the decisive manner that he and his student, who became the animating spirit of the conservatism of that age, would have desired.


Kendall’s explanation, which others echoed and, in some cases, anticipated, was that many intellectuals believed “in an unlimited right to think and say what you please, with impunity and without let or hindrance.” Particularly in the face of the communist threat, Kendall thought that Americans would have to give up the idea of an “open society.” They would have to grasp that “any viable society has an orthodoxy—a set of fundamental beliefs, implicit in its way of life, that it cannot, should not, and, in any case, will not submit to the vicissitudes of the marketplace.”

Kendall viewed English democrat and feminist John Stuart Mill as a particularly dangerous thinker on political questions. He was convinced Mill’s best-known work, On Liberty, had gone too far in advocating an “open society.”

Mill set out to defend the right of totally free inquiry but, according to Kendall, landed squarely on relativism. In The Conservative Affirmation (1963), Kendall traced the non-judgmentalism of many Americans when faced by the communist threat to Mill’s willingness to consider all views and opinions. According to Kendall, Mill helped create America’s “national religion of skepticism” and made it increasingly difficult for Americans to hold on to what was left of a traditional society. Mill also dealt with moral issues by encouraging the pursuit of truth without accepting “truth itself with all its accumulated riches to date.”

In a moving tribute to Kendall, Tom Woodlief, writing recently at The American Conservative, declared that “this outcast Yale professor predicted 2020 better than his erstwhile colleagues.” Kendall had warned against “the suicidal pact with relativism,” which is now driving the antifascist Left. According to him, “the doyens of the suicidal society will feel an irresistible compulsion to silence the voices insisting that there is truth, even Truth, and that therefore many other beliefs are in error.”

Please note that I fully share Mr. Woodlief’s admiration for Kendall and especially for his writings on the formation of American constitutional government and his perceptive reading of the political theory of John Locke. Where I must part company is in Kendall’s attribution to the Left of a fixation with an “open society.” Equally open to question is Kendall’s treatment of Mill’s On Liberty, a work that Maurice Cowling, Linda Rader, and Joseph Hamburger have all interpreted differently from Kendall. These scholars have documented that Mill was far less interested in open discussion than he was in other ends. Above all, he was trying to build a secular society based on a consensus centered on scientific truth. Mill was an explicit 19th-century progressive who believed that open inquiry would advance his teleological goals.

Moreover, with due respect to Woodlief and Kendall, those who support Antifa and Black Lives Matter have hardly failed to recognize that there is “Truth” in the world. They simply reject the moral right of their enemies to express other views. This is a moral stand, hardly a relativistic one, and it is a political-existential one, in the sense in which Carl Schmitt understood “the Concept of the Political” as the most intensely antagonistic of human relationships. It is unimaginable that the more fervent and more activist side in our culture wars is not driven by its own morality, which expresses itself in rage.

One might also question whether the Left has ever believed consistently in something called “moral relativism” or whether it has merely appealed to it as a tactic to disarm opponents. Certainly the pro-communist leftists with whom Kendall debated were not likely to “relativize” Nazism or even the Francoist regime in Spain or South African Apartheid the way they did Soviet tyranny.

Russell Kirk liked to tell the story of a leftist acquaintance who claimed to have a perfectly open mind. When Kirk asked his interlocutor who was morally superior, “Jesus of Nazareth or Stalin,” this fellow seemed unable to rate those figures by the required standard. But when he was asked who was worse, Hitler or Stalin, Kirk’s acquaintance would immediately respond “Hitler.” I had similar experiences with advocates of the “open society” before the Left gave up its facade of universal tolerance. It may be that dishonesty, not relativism, was the problem with how the Left has presented itself.

If one were to ask what exactly the Left has believed about morality over the decades, I would begin by pointing out that the most important concept is equality. The Left has never denied this and I see no reason to question that commitment. What seems to me striking is the Left’s preoccupation with equality to the neglect of other values that seem at least as much deserving of respect, such as deference to elders, respect for the achievements of one’s civilization, piety, freedom, and so on. We might also question how the Left understands its highest value, which is clearly different from the way non-leftists might approach it. For example, some may think that equality before the law is enough; others may want equal voting rights, and still others may believe it is the duty of the state to reduce its citizens or subjects to the same living conditions.

The present Left also seems interested in imposing equality of esteem for those whom it designates as historical victims. This is certainly not an expression of relativism but an attempt to carry a highest value one step beyond where it was carried in the past. The drive toward a more total equality brings with it a host of human problems, anarcho-tyranny as seen in cities like Seattle right now being the most obvious. But the belief that all values are relative does not in any way seem to have influenced this course of events.

Another curious characteristic of the Left is how furiously it reacts to Western failures to meet its fastidious standards of equality. The existence of economic disparities in Western countries drove generations of leftists to look for answers in communism, or at least to treat communist governments as efforts to create more “just” or more “scientifically run” societies. The enemy then and afterwards was “fascism” and it remained so long after the Second World War. Fascism has been defined as a chronic Western disease, arising out of specifically Western cultural and religious attitudes rooted in bigotry. Fascism used to be explained with reference to those who controlled the means of production. It was an ideological tool for oppressing the poor and maintaining colonial empires. In its more contemporary form, fascism has become whatever the intersectional Left considers to be morally reprehensible. Since the list of fascist offenses continues to grow by the minute, the only moral way to deal with this right-wing pestilence is by “canceling culture.” Only by getting rid of all reminders of a traditional Western society can we protect ourselves from the pervasive fascist menace.

Yet somehow the evils we are supposed to combat never appear anywhere outside the West. Other societies live in a perpetual state of grace as victims of the West or as examples of what we might become with the proper reeducation. The late Paul Hollander wrote a voluminous study on “political pilgrims” who visited “progressive” or Marxist societies, where they hoped to find human perfection. Hollander’s “pilgrims” were hardly relativists. They were fixated on a highest value, usually equality, but equality combined with scientific management, which they imagined was being realized in some distant place but not in their own country.

Where Kendall was correct was in grasping that the Left was destroying traditional human attachments, where people are integrated into families and communities. There, morality operates in an inherited social context, and not in the pursuit of highest values. Although one may be skeptical about the portentous importance that Kendall ascribed to relativism, his description of a society without shared premises descending into “ever-deepening differences of opinion” is accurate. So was his prediction that such a society would descend “into the abandonment of the discussion process and the arbitrament of public questions by violence and civil war.”

Article source: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-left-has-gone-far-beyond-relativism/

_____________________________

Paul Gottfried is the editor-in-chief of Chronicles. He is also Raffensperger Professor of Humanities Emeritus at Elizabethtown College, where he taught for 25 years, a Guggenheim recipient, and a Yale Ph.D. He is the author of 13 books, most recently Fascism: Career of a Concept and Revisions and Dissents (https://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Career-Concept-Paul-Gottfried/dp/0875807828/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Fascism:+Career+of+a+Concept+and+Revisions+and+Dissents&qid=1552405708&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmr0&linkCode=sl1&tag=americcancons-20&linkId=9aee64b7cc78e4969cbf823a2185c246&language=en_US).

[Wind]

The first step is to acknowledge that there is a problem.

Even as an European I can see that there has been terrible systematic racism in America which has never been properly addressed. It only has been festering. I think it's embarrassing when we white people think we could know what our black brothers and sisters have to go through on a day to day basis there. We have only heard the stories. As empaths we can feel their pain, but can we truly understand it? At least I personally try. We can't turn our eyes and ears away from injustice.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

To me MLK was the greatest champion of freedom that ever lived. He spoke about true equality between all races and all classes. Why is it so hard to achieve? Why are people still on a such low level of vibration that we get stuck into issues about race? You truly know that a civilization is not very advanced when we still have big issues like this to overcome. How can you teach more empathy? I wish I had the answer. But I am willing to listen and not to shy away from problems or deny them.

People feel uncomfortable about issues like this and the truth is that yes we should indeed feel uncomfortable about it, because that's our conscience whispering to our ears. Thank God we still have it as it means that we still have our souls intact.

sctENM_d77g
0p0_8h3FbCk

[Forest Denizen]

So, after starting this thread and responding to the first few posts following my original one, it quickly became obvious that my responses were, eh, not terribly well thought out, shall we say?


How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.
Dorjezigzag, I apologize for flying off the handle. As Mike and Gracy rightly pointed out, I was out of line and I am sorry.


Ken, the reason that your quote is shortened and highlighted is that I have been told not to repost entire large posts in quotes…


Not wise for white folk to do any of these things in certain parts of Oakland, California…

And I’m sorry for the way I responded to you, Luke, and you, lunaflare.

I obviously care deeply about this subject, as I’m sure you who have responded in your posts on this and other threads, do as well. Interesting.. and to be honest, disheartening to me, that the subject is apparently so fraught. Nevertheless, to everyone who has posted on this thread, I do greatly appreciate your input.

AutumnW and Mike, I applaud your very reasonable dialogue. However, no matter how much Jordan Peterson, Bret Weinstein, Joe Rogan, and other folks I listen to, and no matter how many great authors and thinkers I read, there is in my mind, no excuse for continuing the oppression and subjugation of people due to the color of their skin.

Catsquotl, thank you for your beautiful post here:


…If not george floyd, look at Breonna Taylor's death. And there are countless others.
You stated before to take a look at the deaths to see if it were black on black or white on black killings. I did and wondered.

Does the fact that which race kill a black man make a difference? I don't think so.

Black lifes do matter, And at this time in our current worldly **** show I am convinced that we can hold space for just that idea without disregarding the other stuff that matters also.

The one does not exclude the other or poses the definite threat of another genocide where whites are usurped by blacks…

And, Mike, thank you for responding the way you did, you have such a beautiful heart, I think you were dead right when you said:


…As far as who is killing who, black on black, white on white etc, you're right: ultimately, citing statistics hardly matters in the immediate aftermath of tragedies like Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. Compassion is the only appropriate response...

I think heart is what we need more of. More heart and intuition and less analytical thinking.

I know from having worked through a number of statistics courses in pursuit of my graduate degrees, statistics are highly malleable, easily manipulated, and often deliberately skewed. The way data is collected is often flawed even in the best-case scenarios, and intentionally filtered and misrepresented in other cases. As the not so old computer programming saying goes, “Garbage in, garbage out.” This is a term widely used in statistics as well.

But don’t let me dissuade you from your mental gymnastics.. your cerebral contortions. I recognize that there are many agendas and influences that have been inserted into this issue.. this movement.

It’s just not the way that I am guided.

[AutumnW]

Ken,

We are on the same page here. You not only have to feel with your heart, you have to think with it, too. Like Mike, I am highly emotional and afraid of either losing control of my emotions or being suckered as a consequence of them. I retreat into the analytical to protect myself (and others around me. LOL)

What's interesting to me, is this part of my personality is undergoing a rapid change and it has something to do with George Floyd's death. It made me cry, and after that happened, I was able to cry about injustices that have always bothered me, always gotten under my skin. I just never let them touch my heart before. I was too protected.

Much love to everybody, and I mean this deeply.

[Dorjezigzag]

In our ‘emocracy,’ emotions rule

We no longer live in a democracy. We live in an emocracy — where emotions rather than majorities rule and feelings matter more than reason. The stronger your feelings — the better you are at working yourself into a fit of indignation — the more influence you have. And never use words where emojis will do.

There was a time when appeals to emotion over facts were regarded as the preserve of the populist right. But truthiness — the quality of being ideologically convenient, though not actually true — is now bipartisan. On a recent “60 Minutes,’’ Anderson Cooper confronted freshman congresswoman and social media sensation Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez with some of her many factual errors. Her reply was that of a true emocrat: “I think,” she replied, “that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.”



Just how harmful emocracy is became clear a week ago, when the following headlines appeared: “’It was getting ugly’: Native American drummer speaks on his encounter with MAGA-hat-wearing teens.” And: “Boys in ‘Make America Great Again’ Hats Mob Native Elder at Indigenous Peoples March.” The former was in The Washington Post; the latter The New York Times. The reports were calculated to elicit a torrent of emotion. And they did.

What actually happened was as follows. A group of (nearly all white) boys from Covington Catholic High School, Kentucky, were in Washington to attend a rally organized by March for Life, an antiabortion nonprofit organization. They ended up in an altercation near the Lincoln Memorial with a small group of Native Americans.


One of the Native Americans, Nathan Phillips, later told reporters that he had heard the boys chant “Build that wall,” and, as an opponent of President Trump’s border wall, he had approached them to remonstrate. We now know — thanks to other eyewitnesses and a much longer video — what really happened. The Native Americans were indeed abused, but by a handful of members of the Black Hebrew Israelites, an African-American sect.


It was the preacher of the Black Hebrew Israelites who directed the attention of the Native Americans at the boys. The boys did not chant “Build that wall” but responded to the abuse now being aimed at them by the Black Hebrew Israelites with good-natured school sports chants. When Phillips and a few other Native Americans marched toward them, beating drums, the boys at first joined in, dancing to the drumbeat. Only then did things get strange.

Still drumming, Phillips approached one of the boys, Nick Sandmann. Clearly uncomfortable and uncertain what to do, Sandmann froze, but Phillips went right up to him, beating the drum so close to his face that the boy was blinking. His forced smile, it is clear, was one of embarrassment, not contempt.

Meanwhile, the Black Hebrew Israelites kept up their stream of abuse directed at the kids, but the boys did not respond in kind. They booed the preacher only when he used a disparaging word.

As the father of four boys, I give the Covington Catholic pupils an A for self-restraint. Unfortunately, we live in an emocracy, where self-restraint is at a discount. The Twitter account that helped spread the video — @2020Fight — purported to belong to a Californian teacher named “Talia.” The fact that the profile photo was of the Brazilian actress Nah Cardoso did not apparently trouble The Washington Post editor who assigned reporters to cover the story. Nor did he apparently worry when they filed copy based largely on testimony from Phillips. This scoop was too deliciously truthy to waste time on tedious things like investigation and corroboration.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...9FL/story.html

[Forest Denizen]

...Just how harmful emocracy is became clear a week ago, when the following headlines appeared: “’It was getting ugly’: Native American drummer speaks on his encounter with MAGA-hat-wearing teens.” And: “Boys in ‘Make America Great Again’ Hats Mob Native Elder at Indigenous Peoples March.” The former was in The Washington Post; the latter The New York Times. The reports were calculated to elicit a torrent of emotion. And they did...[/URL]

Dorjezigzag, I'm not sure why you are posting this on the thread, The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

First of all, this has nothing to do with the dangers of “living while black” in the USA, second, this event occurred in January of 2019.

Your post might seem to some as if you are trolling this thread.. or me.

:focus: :focus: :focus:

[Dorjezigzag]

...Just how harmful emocracy is became clear a week ago, when the following headlines appeared: “’It was getting ugly’: Native American drummer speaks on his encounter with MAGA-hat-wearing teens.” And: “Boys in ‘Make America Great Again’ Hats Mob Native Elder at Indigenous Peoples March.” The former was in The Washington Post; the latter The New York Times. The reports were calculated to elicit a torrent of emotion. And they did...[/URL]

Dorjezigzag, I'm not sure why you are posting this on the thread, The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

First of all, this has nothing to do with the dangers of “living while black” in the USA, second, this event occurred in January of 2019.

Your post might seem to some as if you are trolling this thread.. or me.

:focus: :focus: :focus:

My I think a moderator is getting a little emotional

That post is on topic in reference to the 2 posts above it where you wrote


I think heart is what we need more of. More heart and intuition and less analytical thinking.

I know from having worked through a number of statistics courses in pursuit of my graduate degrees, statistics are highly malleable, easily manipulated, and often deliberately skewed. The way data is collected is often flawed even in the best-case scenarios, and intentionally filtered and misrepresented in other cases. As the not so old computer programming saying goes, “Garbage in, garbage out.” This is a term widely used in statistics as well.

But don’t let me dissuade you from your mental gymnastics.. your cerebral contortions. I recognize that there are many agendas and influences that have been inserted into this issue.. this movement.

It’s just not the way that I am guided.

and Autumn wrote

You not only have to feel with your heart, you have to think with it, too. Like Mike, I am highly emotional and afraid of either losing control of my emotions or being suckered as a consequence of them. I retreat into the analytical to protect myself (and others around me. LOL)

What's interesting to me, is this part of my personality is undergoing a rapid change and it has something to do with George Floyd's death. It made me cry, and after that happened, I was able to cry about injustices that have always bothered me, always gotten under my skin. I just never let them touch my heart before. I was too protected.

The post is a response to that way of perceiving and is extremely relevant to the thread especially considering your emotionally charged abusive actions.

It also points out how the actions of the black Hebrew isrealites was ignored because it did not intensify the emotional narrative that they were trying to create.

Again not sure why I have to explain this to you, perhaps if you calm down you may be able to think clearer.

Please do not remove it again you are just showing your prejudice

[onawah]

Soros Helps Crash the US
For transcript, see: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111279-George-Soros&p=1362202&viewfull=1#post1362202

MmHO5YWd6A0

[Forest Denizen]

The post is a response to that way of perceiving and is extremely relevant to the thread especially considering your emotionally charged abusive actions.

Fine. I'm sure you must realize that this happened a year-and-a-half ago. You seem highly emotionally invested in this issue here in the US. Perhaps you could bring in some more recent relevant material from your side of the pond?

[Dorjezigzag]

The post is a response to that way of perceiving and is extremely relevant to the thread especially considering your emotionally charged abusive actions.

Fine. I'm sure you must realize that this happened a year-and-a-half ago. You seem highly emotionally invested in this issue here in the US.

Curious that you make that point to me and yet you didn't to autumn who cited examples from many years before my one, I really don't think you are fit to be a moderator who should remain impartial.

Below is quote from Autumn

In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

After Michael Brown, an unarmed black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.



Perhaps you could bring in some more recent relevant material from your side of the pond?
I guess my many years working out of the USA perked my interest in that country I am probably more widely travelled in the USA than many Americans on this forum. Again interesting that you have not made this point to the many other forum members not from the USA.

Besides the title of thread is The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

[AutumnW]

Dorj,

I sense you are attempting to associate compassion and feelings of grief with over the top emotion. Further to that, if one is feeling the over the top emotion they won't be able to think in the manner that suits YOU, which will involve getting lost in a maze of conspiracy theories.

The video of George Floyd is not doctored. It hasn't been purposely cut to create a false impression. Can people of all leanings jump to wrong conclusions based on their world view, when watching deceptive editing? Sure...but that's not the case here.

A man died unnecessarily at the hands of a cop. It is heart wrenching and made more so by the fact that it is a much more common occurrence than many of us realized in the past.

What does being disagreed with bring up for you? Does it make you angry? That's an emotion too. Lots of simmering angry people out there think they are "above" emotion when they are stewing in it. Just asking. I can't know what you are feeling.

[Dorjezigzag]

Dorj,

I sense you are attempting to associate compassion and feelings of grief with over the top emotion. Further to that, if one is feeling the over the top emotion they won't be able to think in the manner that suits YOU, which will involve getting lost in a maze of conspiracy theories.

The video of George Floyd is not doctored. It hasn't been purposely cut to create a false impression. Can people of all leanings jump to wrong conclusions based on their world view, when watching deceptive editing? Sure...but that's not the case here.

A man died unnecessarily at the hands of a cop. It is heart wrenching and made more so by the fact that it is a much more common occurrence than many of us realized in the past.

What does being disagreed with bring up for you? Does it make you angry? That's an emotion too. Lots of simmering angry people out there think they are "above" emotion when they are stewing in it. Just asking. I can't know what you are feeling.

No I'm fine with being disagreed with, I really am, being abused with inappropriate name calling and abusively moderated that I'm not too keen on.

Where did I state that


The video of George Floyd is not doctored. It hasn't been purposely cut to create a false impression. Can people of all leanings jump to wrong conclusions based on their world view, when watching deceptive editing? Sure...but that's not the case here.

nowhere, of course my heart feels for George Floyd, how did your heart feel for tony timpa (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/you-re-gonna-kill-me-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/) who died under similar circumstances, and yet there was no media frenzy over that, and why was that, these incidents happen. We need to think clearly how we lessen the occurrence of this happening not go on an emotional frenzy of cop baiting leading to many more deaths

[AutumnW]

Dorj

I read about Tony Timpa, a mentally ill man, so also a member of a minority group. The cops knew this before they interacted with him. He called the police for help because he was having a hard time and needed assistance.

These actions on the part of the police are becoming all too common and the idea that it is just a few rotten apples may apply in small towns but in larger boroughs, the rotten apples are starting to outnumber the good cops.

At this time, nobody should be cutting cops slack. They don't deserve it. Part of that is due to how they are trained. That has to change immediately and they have to be demilitarized and the funding for that training has to be relegated to social and psychiatric services.

I assumed you were harshly moderated about the Black Israeli episode with the Indian fellow chanting in a young guy's face? And mentioned that the video was edited to fit a narrative, not tell the truth. I imagine you were one that picked up on that. So, should have explained that in my prior post.

Anyway, back to the topic!

[Gemma13]

That has to change immediately and they have to be demilitarized and the funding for that training has to be relegated to social and psychiatric services.

BIG MISTAKE.  And another clue to stakeholders in the bigger picture strategy.

[Mike]

I think this belongs in this thread. Sam Harris gives what I feel is a pretty fair and objective analysis of the current relationship between the police and black folks here in the U.S.

About 10 mins long:
5nyu_JpnBXo

[Forest Denizen]

sJAhHE-w1ZA

Posted at 6:44 PM, Aug 03, 2020 and last updated 9:06 AM, Aug 04, 2020

AURORA, Colo. — Police detained and handcuffed a Black mother and four children after mistaking their SUV for a stolen motorcycle from another state.

It happened in the parking lot of a shopping center off of Buckley Road and E. Iliff Avenue Sunday morning.

“Why are you now placing these children on the ground face into the concrete? It's hot! In front of all of us? Screaming at them. They are telling you they are hurt,” witness Jenni Wurtz said.

Wurtz recorded the incident along with several other witnesses.

She says a police car slowly pulled behind the family. The officer drew their weapon on the family and ordered them out of the car. Several of the children were handcuffed.

“That makes me very mad, because I am not anti-police. I’m anti what happened yesterday, and that was ridiculous,” Wurtz said.

The car the family was driving was not stolen. Police used a license plate scanner to gather information on vehicles in the area. They should have been looking for a motorcycle with the same plate from another state.

Interim Chief Wilson blamed the license plate reader but could not explain why the dozens of officers who responded did not confirm the vehicle description.

“I totally understand that anger, and don’t want to diminish that anger, but I will say it wasn’t a profiling incident. It was a hit that came through the system, and they have a picture of the vehicle the officers saw,” Wilson said, defending her officers’ actions.

After officers realized the mistake, the family was uncuffed but more officers continued to arrive. Video shows over a dozen officers standing around the traumatized family.

“I do not think a stolen vehicle is worth traumatizing the lives of children. On top of that, I was 20-feet away with a drawn gun. They didn’t even tell me to move, secure the scene. They didn’t do anything,” Wurtz said.

Wurtz filed a complaint with internal affairs. She believes the police department's policy needs to change.

By Monday evening, an internal investigation was underway following the incident, according to Wilson.

"We first want to offer our apologies to the family involved in the traumatic incident involving a police stop of their vehicle yesterday.

"We have been training our officers that when they contact a suspected stolen car, they should do what is called a high-risk stop. This involves drawing their weapons and ordering all occupants to exit the car and lie prone on the ground. But we must allow our officers to have discretion and to deviate from this process when different scenarios present themselves. I have already directed my team to look at new practices and training," Wilson said in a prepared statement. "I have called the family to apologize and to offer any help we can provide, especially for the children who may have been traumatized by yesterday's events. I have reached out to our victim advocates so we can offer age-appropriate therapy that the city will cover."

Aurora Mayor Mike Coffman issued a statement Tuesday morning about the incident: “I have spoken with Interim Chief Wilson about this unfortunate incident, and we both believe this was improper and traumatizing to the children. What happened is being thoroughly investigated, and I will continue to follow up to make sure changes in training and procedures take place. I am sorry for the pain, fear and confusion this family unnecessarily faced.”

[Forest Denizen]

And an interesting new-ish phenomenon..

https://twitter.com/i/status/1290428862870913024

[Jake]

Did someone Really say that they can easily picture us in KKK gear? Wow. That's fairly revealing. Perhaps if you spent less time fantasizing about the KKK, you wouldn't see racism everywhere you look. Just saying.

Jake

[Mike]

There are 40 to 50 million police/civilian interactions annually, and 99% of them are uneventful. It was kind of that woman to witness the traffic stop, and if stuff like this improves black/white relations I'm all for it, but her suspicion is drawn mostly from hysteria imo.

[Michelle]

Racism can be in ANY culture. It makes no difference if your black or white. I am white and grew up in the projects of Milwaukee WI. It was awful. We were constantly targeted because of the color of our skin. Much love to the black families that protected us during this time.

Our house got broken into and all our Christmas presents were stolen. I was jumped several times and beaten. My older brother was jumped a few times. I remember my parents bought him a new bike for his birthday. He rode it around the block once and a group of kids punched him in the face and stole his bike. I still can remember him coming home bloody and crying.

One day the corner store was being robbed and my father was holding my little sister. A gun was aimed at him. I remember whimpering so bad... We also couldn’t wear any new clothes in the projects because my parents were terrified we’d get hurt and our new shoes or jackets stolen. I could go into my high school years that had metal detectors and security posted in the halls and the nightmare that was, but I digress. What I am saying is racism goes both ways too. Despite all this, I’ve always loved my black community♥️ I understood the pain and poverty all to well. It’s so sad to see it unraveling at the seams.

Police are under so much pressure. When drugs started being pumped into these communities, Violence and guns took on a whole new level. I remember a teenager was shot to death under my windowsill. I cried all night. Its absolutely frightening. The cops are literally in a war zone. If you haven't lived through it, it seems unbelievable. I always felt like they were trying to help the community. We need them♥️ It’s a terrible situation. They just see so much violence everyday. It’s no excuse for police brutality. The violence and the lack of regard for human life takes its toll on everyone. I know it did on me:(

Instead of going back and forth on this thread on who’s racist and who’s not, we need to focus on how we can clean up these communities. Nobody’s talking about that. It’s all just divisive rhetoric. We need to tackle the unprecedented violence in these communities. The teen mothers with absent fathers, the drug addiction, the corrupt school boards syphoning off money away from children’s education, small businesses that get robbed and bullied and move away from all the violence leaving little opportunity for work, -I hate typing this because I do like rap, but damnit the rap that just perpetuates bad behavior and degrades women!

So a good thread where we ALL could come together on here is ways we could stand together to help these communities. Nothing is being accomplished here. I’ve talked with my black friends and half of my family is black. They are not feeling what’s being said as far as being scared to be who they are.

As a silly note if you’ve ever listened to my blended family, you would think we’re all racists. We make fun of each other’s race so bad that we just laugh. Like Chis says on here. Look past color. We are all individuals (your my favorite Chris) and see people for people.

Much love♥️
Michelle

[Forest Denizen]

https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1295446006100668417

[Gracy]

https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1295446006100668417

Well first off, that cocky ass arrogant pose of his is a big turn off. But that aside Ken, what evidence do we have besides he's had formal charges against him, in a very politically charged environment?

I'll reserve initial judgment pending some body cam footage.

[Bill Ryan]

The problem is, it works both ways.

All Lives Matter. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111180-All-Lives-Matter)

Read this. The article very carefully avoids mentioning the color of the elderly man's attackers — until, of course, you see the photos.


https://ntd.com/80-year-old-who-was-attacked-robbed-at-california-grocery-store-dies-family_497810.html

80-Year-Old Who Was Attacked, Robbed at California Grocery Store Dies

20 August, 2020

I'll not copy the whole article: anyone can read it at the link above.

Here is the poor man, before and after. His name was Roberto Flores-Lopez. I wonder who will remember him. :flower:

https://www.ntd.com/assets/uploads/2020/08/Roberto-Flores-Lopez-1-900x506.jpg

https://www.ntd.com/assets/uploads/2020/08/Roberto-Flores-Lopez-615x346.jpg

Lancaster Sheriff’s Station detectives announced the arrest of 22-year-old Damaris Wade and 33-year-old Tamika White, who surrendered themselves to authorities after police identified the suspects in a surveillance video of the attack.

https://twitter.com/LANLASD/status/1282192774649884673

1282192774649884673

[Forest Denizen]

Truly awful, Bill; however, I really don’t see how this post is relevant here. This was a man attacked by a despicable thug. The man wasn’t, it seems, attacked due to his ethnicity or the color of his skin. He was the victim of a senseless and horrible crime by an individual who happened to be black. Can you further explain why you feel this post should go here? I really am just trying to understand your viewpoint :flower:

[Sirus]

Truly awful, Bill; however, I really don’t see how this post is relevant here. This was a man attacked by a despicable thug. The man wasn’t, it seems, attacked due to his ethnicity or the color of his skin. He was the victim of a senseless and horrible crime by an individual who happened to be black. Can you further explain why you feel this post should go here? I really am just trying to understand your viewpoint :flower:

The outrage seems to only happen when the attackers are white, or initially thought to be white (like in the case of Trayvon Martin for example)

[Bill Ryan]

Can you further explain why you feel this post should go here? I really am just trying to understand your viewpoint :flower:

I can across it last night by accident, and was appalled. It seems to be that the real thread title should be The Dangers of Living in the USA. Color has nothing to do with it.

I'm really just redressing the imbalance.

[Forest Denizen]

Can you further explain why you feel this post should go here? I really am just trying to understand your viewpoint :flower:

I can across it last night by accident, and was appalled. It seems to be that the real thread title should be The Dangers of Living in the USA. Color has nothing to do with it.

I'm really just redressing the imbalance.

I think that misses the point. Sure, everyone’s in danger to one extent or another; however, there is a danger specifically threatening to black folks (and to be honest, Latinxs, Native Americans and other non-whites) here in the U.S.

It has to do with the threat they are constantly under of experiencing excessive force and persecution from law enforcement and the legal/judicial system. I have, several times in Arkansas and Ohio for instance, been simply let go with a “you be careful now,” or at worst, some kind of warning, when I know that had I been black, I would have been in serious jeopardy.

[Jake]

As a Native American, I'd rather not be put in a box and poked with a stick. I'd rather not be be a white persons crutch. DON'T (please) victimize me. Don't Judas me. Don't chastise me, don't blacklist me. Don't , please please please, judge me by my skin. ALL LIVES MATTER. I'm not special because of the injustice done to my people. I'm special because I have endured. I have not identified as a victim. AND I WILL NOT. Black people are PEOPLE. Good, bad, ugly,,, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. I'll always champion bringing black folk up. But I will not waste a breath bringing others down.

The BLM organization is NOT aligned with my beliefs... And I don't hate anyone...

I'm a proud Cherokee. Please don't put me in that box.

Jake

[Bill Ryan]

I think that misses the point. Sure, everyone’s in danger to one extent or another; however, there is a danger specifically threatening to black folks (and to be honest, Latinxs, Native Americans and other non-whites) here in the U.S.

Got it, and many thanks. :highfive: :flower:

But personally, I just don't believe that's accurate or correct, or able to be substantiated by statistics. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but at the moment it seems to me that reality suggests something different.

[Mike]

Black folks are in danger here in the states, but the danger is coming from other black folks mostly.

That's just a fact. I've been called a bigot, white supremacist, and a radical right winger for stating such facts here. That's the state of world today unfortunately - facts are viewed as "radical". No, don't worry, I won't be reciting my boring speech on postmodernism today. I'm in a good mood so I'll spare you all:)

Just recently a 5 year old white boy was shot in the face by a black man, and the major news outlets are barely touching it https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/15/us/north-carolina-boy-killed-father-speaks-trnd/index.html

It's important to ask why. Of course it's because it doesn't fit the current narrative of whites = oppressors, blacks =oppressed.

Nowhere in that article does it mention the killer's race. Normally I wouldn't care, but if a white person so much as looks at a black person the wrong way these days, there will be 5000 yahoo articles about it with similar headlines: "evil white Karen grimaces at lovely black folks who were just minding their business"

In a media that goes out of it's way to include race in every last little damn detail of every f#cking little thing now, we need to ask ourselves 1) why was this story largely ignored, and 2) why is the killers's race always conveniently glossed over in the media?

It's because we are being fed stories. And one of those stories is that white people are an existential or "systemic" threat to blacks. They're not. And just for the record, blacks aren't a threat to whites either. Both blacks and whites, statistically, kill their own at a significantly higher clip than they do each other.

Peace begins with the truth, not emotions.

[Karen (Geophyz)]

Black folks are in danger here in the states, but the danger is coming from other black folks mostly.

That's just a fact. I've been called a bigot, white supremacist, and a radical right winger for stating such facts here. That's the state of world today unfortunately - facts are viewed as "radical". No, don't worry, I won't be reciting my boring speech on postmodernism today. I'm in a good mood so I'll spare you all:)

Just recently a 5 year old white boy was shot in the face by a black man, and the major news outlets are barely touching it (http://https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/nc-man-accused-shooting-5-year-old-neighbor-head-point-blank-range/NLF2XRMIGRDVNNY67BI4KCICY4/

It's important to ask why. Of course it's because it doesn't fit the current narrative of whites = oppressors, blacks =oppressed.

Nowhere in that article does it mention the killer's race. Normally I wouldn't care, but if a white person so much as looks at a black person the wrong way these days, there will be 5000 yahoo articles about it with similar headlines: "evil white Karen grimaces at lovely black folks who were just minding their business"

In a media that goes out of it's way to include race in every last little damn detail of every f#cking little thing now, we need to ask ourselves 1) why was this story largely ignored, and 2) why is the killers's race always conveniently glossed over in the media?

It's because we are being fed stories. And one of those stories is that white people are an existential or "systemic" threat to blacks. They're not. And just for the record, blacks aren't a threat to whites either. Both blacks and whites, statistically, kill their own at a significantly higher clip than they do each other.

Peace begins with the truth, not emotions.



I applaud your comment! Very well said.

[Forest Denizen]

Another black man killed by police, this time in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Was he an exemplary citizen? No. Was it smart for him to ignore the cop and try to get back into his car with his kids. No. Was there another way the cops could have handled this? I don't know.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1297733723060875264

BTW, here's a video of a white guy resisting arrest; however, this was in California.




¤=[Post Update]=¤



Thanks for posting the correct information regarding this video, PurpleLama. I had originally, incorrectly stated that this also had occurred in Kenosha, WI.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1297728630517370880

[Kryztian]

But that aside Ken, what evidence do we have besides he's had formal charges against him, in a very politically charged environment?

There have been a dozen complaints filed against this officer, and it seems everyone who filed them is black or brown.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/us/georgia-julian-lewis-death-family/index.html


I'll reserve initial judgment pending some body cam footage.Good idea. It's been almost two weeks and no video has been released.

[PurpleLama]

Another black man killed by police, this time in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Was he an exemplary citizen? No. Was it smart for him to ignore the cop and try to get back into his car with his kids. No. Was there another way the cops could have handled this? I don't know.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1297733723060875264

BTW, here's a video of a white guy resisting arrest, also in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1297861867038216193

That happened 3 years ago, in California.

www.kcra.com/amp/article/on-video-suspect-chases-deputy-rams-into-patrol-car-in-san-joaquin-county/12790579

https://kubrick.htvapps.com/htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/images/yaroub-assad-1507328335.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top

The suspect's name is Yaroub Assad.

[Kryztian]

Another black man killed by police, this time in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Was he an exemplary citizen? No. Was it smart for him to ignore the cop and try to get back into his car with his kids. No. Was there another way the cops could have handled this? I don't know.


Yes, there were lots of things they could have done. They could have kept the car door open and try to reason with him. If he closed the door and started the ignition, they could have put bullets in the tires. And if they couldn't stop him and he wasn't a violent criminal and immanent threat, they could have picked him up later and added "resisting arrest" to the charges. Instead, one police officer decided to act as judge and executioner.

This was on Sunday and today, two days later, Jacob Blake, the man who was shot here, is still in intensive care.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/us/jacob-blake-kenosha-shooting-family-response/index.html

In this article, Justin Blake, Jacob's article said:


This, like all the Black parents talk about, is that phone call you don't want to get," he said. "And we got it."

I know a lot of African-Americans who dread exactly this. I was thinking about how absolutely reasonable this fear is, and yet, so many on this forum have produced so much hot air to either trivialize these concerns or convince us they are not even real.

Thanks Ken, for this thread and being a bright light amongst all the dark hearts on this forum.

Mod Note:

I thought you made some good points Kryztian, right up until the needless ad hominems started at the end. No need to get personal over simple points of disagreement.

[Kryztian]

That happened 3 years ago, in California.


Would that make this any less tragic or horrible???

Regardless, it happened two days ago in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/us/jacob-blake-kenosha-shooting-family-response/index.html

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/24/jacob-blake-stable-condition-after-shooting-kenosha-police-shot-7-times/3431519001/

https://journaltimes.com/news/local/350k-already-donated-to-cover-jacob-blakes-medical-bills-children-and-legal-fees/article_67e25eb0-6b39-5183-9aa5-e3f9aef20bf7.html

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/jacob-blakes-family-known-for-civil-rights-work-in-evanston-pastor/2327837/

[Mike]

Chris, if the man is being uncooperative, and then goes back into his vehicle, the police officer has no choice but to assume the worst. There's no time to assume anything else. It's very easy to judge the event from the sidelines, but when all this stuff happens in real time we're talking about decisions that must be made in a matter of seconds. What if that man was going for a gun?

Look, I hate this sh!t. I hate violence, and I hate that it happened in front of his children. The whole thing is emotionally wrenching.

And to be perfectly honest, I'm not nearly as familiar with this event as I should be as someone commenting on it. So if I say something irredeemably stupid, so be it. But for the life of me, I just cannot understand, even for a second, why anyone - black or white or whatever - would resist arrest or even be uncooperative in any way in a situation like that. It never ends well when that happens. It's like watching a horror movie, when the girl being chased by the ax murderer escapes from the house and is home free, but goes back in for some reason she imagines is noble in the moment. And you sit there thinking, BUT WHY???

These events are always horrfying tragedies, but they almost always begin with someone resisting arrest or not cooperating. It just boggles my mind.

[PurpleLama]

That happened 3 years ago, in California.


Would that make this any less tragic or horrible???

Regardless, it happened two days ago in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/us/jacob-blake-kenosha-shooting-family-response/index.html

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/24/jacob-blake-stable-condition-after-shooting-kenosha-police-shot-7-times/3431519001/

https://journaltimes.com/news/local/350k-already-donated-to-cover-jacob-blakes-medical-bills-children-and-legal-fees/article_67e25eb0-6b39-5183-9aa5-e3f9aef20bf7.html

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/jacob-blakes-family-known-for-civil-rights-work-in-evanston-pastor/2327837/

If people are being gaslit over actual lies, that is pretty tragic, too.

[Kryztian]

Mod Note:
I thought you made some good points Kryztian, right up until the needless ad hominems started at the end. No need to get personal over simple points of disagreement.

Somehow I never thought that accepting or denying the reality that people are dying violent brutal deaths because of their skin color as a "simple point of disagreement" but a matter of life and death.

I've had long multi post personal attacks leveled at me here and the mods did or said nothing, and now I am being called out for this????

I've felt much deep disgust at the much that has been said on the forum in the last few months and if I can't express that then please feel free to mark my account "Unsubscribed" forthwith.

[RunningDeer]

I've felt much deep disgust at the much that has been said on the forum in the last few months and if I can't express that then please feel free to mark my account "Unsubscribed" forthwith.
Kryztian, I’d suggest that you request to be “Retired”. That standing allows you to peruse the forum, but you aren’t able to post. Another avenue is take a “Sabbatical”. Give yourself time to chill and recharge.

If I understand correctly, “Unsubscribe” means there’s no turning back. People that’ve been “Unsubscribe” are the unwelcome trolls.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best and Godspeed on your journey.http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/comes-in-hug.gif

♡

http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/How-to-Tips/sabbatical.jpg

[Forest Denizen]

Mod Note:
I thought you made some good points Kryztian, right up until the needless ad hominems started at the end. No need to get personal over simple points of disagreement.

Somehow I never thought that accepting or denying the reality that people are dying violent brutal deaths because of their skin color as a "simple point of disagreement" but a matter of life and death.

I've had long multi post personal attacks leveled at me here and the mods did or said nothing, and now I am being called out for this????

I've felt much deep disgust at the much that has been said on the forum in the last few months and if I can't express that then please feel free to mark my account "Unsubscribed" forthwith.

Dear Kryztian, I so value your presence here on the forum and I would greatly miss your input. I do hope that you will reconsider :heart:

[Jake]

I love you all... Good night..

Jake

[Billy Vasiliadis]

I do wonder if it possible to have an enduring and productive conversation when it comes to this issue. Or maybe it is just too sensitive a topic and the pain is still too raw? Does the medium of an internet forum really lend itself to learning about and healing issues such as these? I doubt it to be honest.

Kryztian, if its any comfort, I imagine there are many reading this thread who actually agree with many of the points you make. This forum would be less without you.

I'll second what Jake said, much love to you all!