Systemic Racism in America

[Sarah Rainsong]

Okay, so the title of the thread is probably not the best, but couldn't think of anything better. :sun: I am curious about how people really look at this, so I'd love to hear others' opinions. These questions could easily apply to many countries, but as I live in America, that's what I'm focusing on. If you'd like to chime in with your experiences from another country, of course that's welcome! But please let us know what country you're talking about.

Do you think there is systemic racism in any institutionalized areas of America? (This would extend from the currently-much-discussed police to the medical field to the education system.) This is not about individuals, but group think and actions as well as policies that were originally made to repress and oppress races and other specific groups of people. (And of course, "races" is a misnomer, but for the sake of discussion, let's not get into that.)

Please, don't argue with someone because they may have a different opinion than you. Just share your thoughts. Consider this more of an information gathering session, not a place to discuss or argue about how to fix anything (if anything even needs to be fixed). If you need to define some parameters for your own explanations, please do so! Detail is encouraged. :sun:

[Ernie Nemeth]

The problem is the definition of 'systemic racism', which I would just call the 'out-group'. The lines get more and more blurred in the modern world but not so for the old, especially racially 'pure' nations.

If that can be accepted, I would of course agree that there is systemic racism. But not against a skin color. Rather, against the common ideology of The Work Ethic, bank account accruing, busy, erratic, self-centered, greedy consumerism and unbridled capitalistic open-ended growth based mantra of the modern world. Is that a race?

Ya, the rat race. I'm racist against rats holding competitions of any kind, it seems.:wink:

[Gemma13]

There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

"X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.  

So my main point to contribute here is that there are institutional problems that are not coming from so called "white privilege".  When the indigenous culture is fractured and finding it difficult to help each other, how in gods name are non indigenous people supposed to help.

This is why I am deeply disappointed in the division being created from BLM because it is seriously jeopardizing and hampering indigenous people, let alone everyone else, trying to help families/groups within their communities.

[Catsquotl]

Sad how individual 2nd hand experiental stories are used to convey a see I said so feel to encompass a subcategory of people. I recently talked to someone who has been living here since 2 years as a student in University who said that even though the Netherlands are supposedly rather liberal and tolerant she has to deal with racist remarks and "jokes" uttered by fellow students and even teachers.

If and when she spoke up she was portrayed as sensitive, no fun and unsociable.

Now where have I heard that before

[Mike]

I think racism is a very real problem.

But I resist the idea of systemic racism. No one has explained to me exactly which systems are racist and how. No one has showed me the law or policy that favors whites over blacks. On the contrary, there are quite a few laws and policies that favor blacks over whites.

Listening to the grievances of black folks, it seems to me that we have an anecdotal racism issue, not a systemic one. Black folks are often treated with suspicion, disregard, and condescension. But as far as I can tell it's not because of anything systemic. Most black folks can tell you an anecdotal story, or several, about being mistreated by someone of a different race. But those are personal interactions, not systemic ones. There are some despicable individuals out there, but our societal systems are mostly fair I'd say.

Even then, some passive aggressive forms of racism are often more novelty or familiarity bias among people that don't know enough about other cultures and dont spend enough time in their presence to be comfortable. It's not always deep rooted hate or discrimination that causes these things.

[Floating]

I wonder if we are all "racist"....but that is not the real word I would chose. Prejudice. Maybe that is a better word.

We are prejudiced for many reasons. Color, religion, north of the border (any border), south of the border...different. If you are "different" than the "norm" of where you live or work, you will find prejudice. My folks have lived in east Tennessee for over 50 years. They will "always" be considered "outsiders" since they weren't born in the area. That isn't Racist, per se. Color has NOTHING to do with the neighbors bias against the folks.

I have been reading about the Racism in China. Horrible. Black, Christian, sex, etc. are all being biased against. Who knew?

Is there systemic prejudice around the US and in the world. Absolutely. Just how bad depends on who and what is considered "abnormal".

[Catsquotl]

@mike, how would you define systemic?

[Bill Ryan]

@mike, how would you define systemic?I'd be interested in Mike's answer. I'd also be interested in Sarah Rainsong's definition. (She started this thread a few hours ago.)

I looked it up. There are many "definitions", but here are two, from this USA Today page (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/15/systemic-racism-what-does-mean/5343549002/):


What is systemic racism?

NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] President Derrick Johnson defined systemic racism, also called structural racism or institutional racism, as "systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantages African Americans."

Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward and publisher of Colorlines, defined it as "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives."

"Systemic racism is naming the process of white supremacy," Harris said.

Harris said systemic racism creates disparities in many "success indicators" including wealth, the criminal justice system, employment, housing, health care, politics and education. He said that although the concept dates back to work done by scholar and civil rights pioneer W.E.B. Du Bois, the concept was first named during the civil rights movement of the 1960s and was further refined in the 1980s.

Also see this thread:


The Knowing Racism of the US Federal Reserve (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111251-The-Knowing-Racism-of-the-US-Federal-Reserve)

[Constance]

Thank you :heart:


I wonder if we are all "racist"....but that is not the real word I would chose. Prejudice. Maybe that is a better word.

We are prejudiced for many reasons. Color, religion, north of the border (any border), south of the border...different. If you are "different" than the "norm" of where you live or work, you will find prejudice. My folks have lived in east Tennessee for over 50 years. They will "always" be considered "outsiders" since they weren't born in the area. That isn't Racist, per se. Color has NOTHING to do with the neighbors bias against the folks.

I have been reading about the Racism in China. Horrible. Black, Christian, sex, etc. are all being biased against. Who knew?

Is there systemic prejudice around the US and in the world. Absolutely. Just how bad depends on who and what is considered "abnormal".

[Mike]

Sad how individual 2nd hand experiental stories are used to convey a see I said so feel to encompass a subcategory of people. I recently talked to someone who has been living here since 2 years as a student in University who said that even though the Netherlands are supposedly rather liberal and tolerant she has to deal with racist remarks and "jokes" uttered by fellow students and even teachers.

If and when she spoke up she was portrayed as sensitive, no fun and unsociable.

Now where have I heard that before



Well, let me ask you a question: Do you like Chris Rock? Do you think he's funny?

I do! He's genius. Love the guy. When he makes fun of white people, which he does often, no one is laughing harder than I am. I could give a f#ck. And the reason is this:much of what he says is true! There are some truths to some stereotypes, and when they are exposed in a humorous way, you can't help but laugh. It's visceral, it just comes out of you. It's like your soul's way of applauding a taboo truth.

Do you like Dave Chappelle? He's almost universally regarded as our best living comic. And deservedly so. He's hysterical. He also makes fun of white people. Constantly! LOL. Oh, and gay people, and trans people. And women. Relentlessly

No one is above being poked at humorously. No one. To assume one group or another is above being made fun of is simply arrogant.

Ridicule is another matter. No one should have to endure that. If your friend is being ridiculed for her race or whatever, that's bullsh!t and it needs to stop. But if she's being humorously poked at here n there, then the best thing she should do is poke back. There is a real opportunity for growth for her there if she can manage that. Something cathartic may be waiting for her just beyond her comfort zone.

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.

For me, it's Bill's first definition, mostly. That's how I think of it. Some people will also include some element of unconscious bias in there too. And there is bias, of course; there's all kinds of biases. But I don't lay them all at the feet of racism. That all needs to be delicately parsed out. But in today's social climate, trying to introduce this type of logic will only earn you the label of racist, or bigot, or white supremacist.

"Systemic racism" is a murky idea and a threat all rolled into one, in the sense that no one really knows exactly what it means, but you better f#cking agree with it anyway or you're a racist.:)

[Gracy]

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

Are they all the mindless mob?

[Mike]

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

Are they all the mindless mob?



nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive

[AutumnW]

Systemic racism explained by Michael Wood


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bw__dwoSDM

[AutumnW]

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

Are they all the mindless mob?

nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive

I don't understand this answer, Mike. Haven't you differentiated those who drone on endlessly about systemic racism and those who don't?

I also want to mention that in political cartooning, particularly (this goes to your point about black comediennes imitating or making fun of white people) it is acceptable to punch up, but not down. Chris Rock makes you laugh because the imitations are not only accurate but as a white person, you aren't threatened by it.

[Gracy]

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

Are they all the mindless mob?

nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive

Okay then, wow, dude I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to have to sleep on it to gain greater clarity on how to really take that.

So nearly 100% of the voices who say there exists systemic racism, are part of the "mindless mob". Huh...

[Mike]

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

Are they all the mindless mob?

nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive

Okay then, wow, dude I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to have to sleep on it to gain greater clarity on how to really take that.

So nearly 100% of the voices who say there exists systemic racism, are part of the "mindless mob". Huh...


Look, I can't go on www. mindlessmob.com to give you an exact number of people who don't understand the concept of systemic racism. What I'm offering is an opinion; it's not science. Imagine for a moment you told me you met lots of idiots in your life. And then imagine I followed you around all day, tapping your shoulder and demanding an exact count of them, along with the ratio of huge idiots to semi-huge idiots, and semi-huge to moderate, and so on and so forth

I wouldn't do that because I'd understand the spirit of what you were saying. You're confusing the spirit of what I'm saying with some kind of bizarre need for exact percentages and numbers. Metaphorically, I'm trying to describe an attack by a swarm of bees coming from all directions, and you're demanding I count them while I'm trying to swat them away. Look, they're everywhere.

But ok, here ya go: if you went outside and approached 100 people and asked them to define "systemic racism", I bet you'd get nearly 100 different answers. There would be some overlap of course, but you would get different answers from most of them. And a significant portion of those 100 wouldn't even know how to answer that question at all.

And the irony is, the degree to which they were correct would all depend on the definition you were subscribing to, of which there are many.

I've heard systemic racism described in many different ways. Most people can't explain it coherently because it's a bloated ball of nonsense. It's not inherently coherent. It's loaded with contradictions and meaningless, manufactured language. To accept its existence requires a suspension of logic and reason....hence, mindlessness.

I think the people who are teaching it are akin to cult leaders. It's much more of an emotional "science" than an intellectual one. It appeals to activists and those types of groups. When bitter and resentful people group up and become emotionally charged, you have mobs. Mobs that are mindless are mindless mobs. And when they begin infecting society at large, look out.

If you cant see those mindless mobs, it could mean you're not paying any attention at all, or it could mean you may even be part of one without even knowing it.

The media, the universities, the professors, and increasingly corporate entities are all subscribing to the doctrine of "systemic racism". That's the mindless mob right there. And that's pretty much everyone

[AutumnW]

Mike, Would you agree that there is systemic racism within policing agencies, the justice and prison systems? If not, why not? Black people are treated much worse than white people. That seems to be something few people would argue with.

[shaberon]

There is British Israelism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism) which may be considered to involve the U. S.

But it is more or less Harvard (https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2016/03/08/eugenics-at-harvard) at the epicenter of modern Eugenics as in general Wiki information:

Eugenics was supported by many prominent figures of different political persuasions before World War I, including: Liberal economists William Beveridge and John Maynard Keynes; Fabian socialists such as Irish author George Bernard Shaw, H. G. Wells and Sidney Webb; and Conservatives such as the future Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Arthur Balfour. The influential economist John Maynard Keynes was a prominent supporter of eugenics, serving as Director of the British Eugenics Society, and writing that eugenics is "the most important, significant and, I would add, genuine branch of sociology which exists".


The American eugenics movement received extensive funding from various corporate foundations including the Carnegie Institution, Rockefeller Foundation, and the Harriman railroad fortune. In 1906 J.H. Kellogg provided funding to help found the Race Betterment Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan.


In the first decades of the twentieth century, the work of the Rockefeller Foundation was decisive for the implementation of public health initiatives in Brazil, especially in the so-called public health movement. At that time, Brazilian eugenics was the same as public health, as expressed in the maxim "to sanitize is to eugenize".


It was this global phenomenon which for example Germany re-branded to Herrenvolk; they didn't launch the concept.

It is still being applied via the Balfour Declaration.

We are still conditioned by Fabian World Government and Rockefeller Medicine, updating its guises.

[Catsquotl]

Sad how individual 2nd hand experiental stories are used to convey a see I said so feel to encompass a subcategory of people. I recently talked to someone who has been living here since 2 years as a student in University who said that even though the Netherlands are supposedly rather liberal and tolerant she has to deal with racist remarks and "jokes" uttered by fellow students and even teachers.

If and when she spoke up she was portrayed as sensitive, no fun and unsociable.

Now where have I heard that before



Well, let me ask you a question: Do you like Chris Rock? Do you think he's funny?

I do! He's genius. Love the guy. When he makes fun of white people, which he does often, no one is laughing harder than I am. I could give a f#ck. And the reason is this:much of what he says is true! There are some truths to some stereotypes, and when they are exposed in a humorous way, you can't help but laugh. It's visceral, it just comes out of you. It's like your soul's way of applauding a taboo truth.

Do you like Dave Chappelle? He's almost universally regarded as our best living comic. And deservedly so. He's hysterical. He also makes fun of white people. Constantly! LOL. Oh, and gay people, and trans people. And women. Relentlessly

No one is above being poked at humorously. No one. To assume one group or another is above being made fun of is simply arrogant.

Ridicule is another matter. No one should have to endure that. If your friend is being ridiculed for her race or whatever, that's bullsh!t and it needs to stop. But if she's being humorously poked at here n there, then the best thing she should do is poke back. There is a real opportunity for growth for her there if she can manage that. Something cathartic may be waiting for her just beyond her comfort zone.

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.

For me, it's Bill's first definition, mostly. That's how I think of it. Some people will also include some element of unconscious bias in there too. And there is bias, of course; there's all kinds of biases. But I don't lay them all at the feet of racism. That all needs to be delicately parsed out. But in today's social climate, trying to introduce this type of logic will only earn you the label of racist, or bigot, or white supremacist.

"Systemic racism" is a murky idea and a threat all rolled into one, in the sense that no one really knows exactly what it means, but you better f#cking agree with it anyway or you're a racist.:)

I love Dave Chapelle, but have yet to see chris rock.
Reason I asked was because you used the word and then said what wasn't explained a few posts ago. Thinking about how being precise matters.

The way I understood it(and being non-english I miss loads of nuances of words) was that a part of it was more like a biased racism. The racism hidden as a joke. A cultural agreement of what is acceptible and what isn't.

I take it you are only being jokingly insulted and generelized for being white when you watch Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle and maybe a few other times every 3 months or so?
In the netherlands I'm sad to say I think that number is way way higher for the black community. In fact other than going looking for it in comedy shows. I don't think I ever experienced a white joke at my expense being made.

That is how I understood systemic racism and realize now that that is almost the same as what could be a sub section of white privilige.

I agree by the way that both terms are way to broad to be usefull anymore.

[Mike]

Mike, Would you agree that there is systemic racism within policing agencies, the justice and prison systems? If not, why not? Black people are treated much worse than white people. That seems to be something few people would argue with.


Hey Jess, there are a little over 21 million black males in the U.S. Or at least there was in 2018.

Last year, roughly 250 of them were shot by police.

I'd prefer ZERO being shot by police, of course. But 250 out of 21 million doesn't suggest an existential crisis to me, let alone systemic racism as I understand it. Thats .0012%. If the cops were as nasty and evil as some of the radical activists are making them out to be, that number would be way higher.

It's true that black men are shot at a significantly higher rate than whites. And while the relative stats tell a more accurate story than the absolute stats, I still don't think you can dismiss the absolute stats which tell us that more whites are shot than blacks yearly.

The reason blacks are shot at a higher rate than whites is a very complex and layered issue. Racism plays a role, but it's only one variable in a multilayered equation.

As far as prisons, I think everyone gets treated like sh!t in there. It's highly corrupt and the guards are often complicit. I don't have any statistics to offer but I've been watching loads of Wes Watson videos; Wes is an ex con who spent 10 years in gladiator style prisons in California. He describes in detail how the guards mistreat the prisoners. And he doesn't make any distinctions between the way whites and blacks are treated. It's a hell for everyone.

[Jayke]

I’d agree with the point Floating made earlier that systemic racism isn’t the right word for it. Black people aren’t specifically, purposefully, targeted any more than other skin colours. There’s too many successful black people who’ve risen to be in positions of influence, power and responsibility for other black people to make the argument that the system is against them.

Thomas Sowell is the perfect example of someone who worked hard in life and took the opportunities that came his way. Having worked his way through the system, through the institutions, through society, he has the inside scoop on whether it’s racist or not. His main gripe seems to be that “the black community just doesn’t have a strong work ethic, they don’t produce, they’d rather live on handouts and benefits”. As oppose to the Asian community, who he points out, are over-represented in institutions of higher learning, but that’s because they have an insanely strict work ethic in their culture.


The last few paragraphs from a longer article on the topic:

============


https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/thomas-sowells-inconvenient-truths/




Sowell clearly believes that culture, as it affects the development of human capital, is a better candidate for explaining inter-group differences than either discrimination or genetics. The “high correlation between the amount of work that different groups put into their education and the quality of their outcomes does not bode well for theories of genetic determinism,” he writes in Discrimination and Disparities. “When we find some race whose lazy students get educational results superior to the results of hard-working students in other races, this would be evidence supporting that hypothesis, but such evidence does not seem to be available.” Asians’ over-representation in New York’s specialized high schools would come as no surprise to Sowell, especially given the proliferation of test preparation centers in the city’s Asian neighborhoods. The Asian American Achievement Paradox (2015), by Jennifer Lee and Min Zhou, points out that the culture of academic achievement among Asian-Americans is so vigorous that a student who brings home a report card with an A-minus is said to have received “the Asian F.”

One might suppose that cultural determinism would be accepted as a more respectful explanation of disparities than genetic determinism. To the contrary. If there is some hereditary basis for disparities disadvantageous to blacks, not only is it futile to devise remedies but also to assign blame…to anyone, white or black. Cultural determinism, however, ascribes agency to disadvantaged American groups, which necessarily recognizes responsibility and the possibility of blame as well. For sociologist Michael Eric Dyson, President Obama’s 2013 address at historically black Morehouse College warned its students “against using racism as an excuse for failure,” and condemned “black pathology, such as absentee fathers.” Such admonitions, Dyson lamented, were seen by white America as “heroic battles against black deficiency.” Another black public intellectual, Ta-Nehisi Coates, dismisses as “lazy” any cultural explanation for disparate outcomes that leave blacks worse off than whites.

The great problem with the Morehouse speech and the Obama presidency in general, wrote Dyson, was the failure to “speak of race in a way that holds whites even partially responsible for black suffering.” As it is for Ezra Klein, the imperative becomes not to let whites off the hook. By contrast, ascribing every disparity adverse to blacks entirely in terms of discrimination holds whites wholly responsible for black suffering. Necessarily, then, it absolves blacks of any responsibility for such suffering, or any need to pursue changes other than demanding that whites renounce their advantages, as in the jihad against “white privilege” or Coates’s advocacy of huge monetary reparations for slavery and segregation.

If all disparities are explained by discrimination, and all Americans fit into one of just two categories—victims of discrimination, or perpetrators and beneficiaries of it—this all-or-nothing frame for determining moral responsibility becomes inevitable. Unfortunately, so does a war between republicanism and pluralism. Ibram Kendi urges us to supplant the flawed principle that all men are created equal with the “perfectly egalitarian” declaration that “all human groups are equal.” This, he says, “is the creed of anti-racism. All human groups are biologically and behaviorally equal; they are all on the same level despite their physical and cultural differences.”

This dictate about group equality, however, nullifies rather than enhances the principle of human equality. A nation dedicated to the proposition that all behaviors and cultures are to be regarded as equal forecloses the prospect of justified pride in order to banish the possibility of self-reproach. If their behaviors and cultures lead some groups to different levels than others, there must be endless, fevered efforts to keep everyone at the same level, as in Mayor de Blasio’s idea that proportional results are the sole criterion defining a fair process. This conception of equality sets it against, and demands that it prevail against, freedom. Constant state interventions will be needed to minimize the consequences, good and bad, of individuals’ choices, habits, and dispositions. For the sake of group equality, the disciplined, responsible, and ambitious will be penalized so that those who can’t or won’t manifest these qualities are rewarded. The result, concludes Thomas Sowell in his series of luminous books, written over the course of a long and very American life, will be an ever less free and democratic nation that will be hard to sustain and impossible to admire.

==============

The system isn’t specifically racist towards black people. The system is biased towards people who produce and invest their time and energy into the system and the system implements that bias regardless of what skin colour a person has.


Mike, Would you agree that there is systemic racism within policing agencies, the justice and prison systems? If not, why not? Black people are treated much worse than white people. That seems to be something few people would argue with.

Pittsburgh had an algorithm that would automatically send more squad cars to areas and neighbourhoods where crimes were being committed. The algorithm was suspended for being racist because it turned out the cars were being sent to ‘black’ neighbourhoods more than anywhere else. What role does black criminality play in perpetuating prejudices against their own community?


https://www.unz.com/sbpdl/pittsburghs-algorithmic-policing-program-predicting-hot-spots-for-criminal-activity-suspended-for-potential-racial-bias-noticing-crime-was-in-black-areas-of-city/


Where diversity (and a paucity of white people) was found, it turns out the city’s algorithmic policing program predicting “hot spots” for criminal activity quickly established racial patterns those in power wished to conceal. Because it’s these patterns explaining why Pittsburgh has such high rates of residential segregation: white people want to live in communities devoid of crime, thus they seek to live in residential areas with an abundance of whites. A surplus of whiteness means social capital flourishes, while Pittsburgh’s algorithm policing program dared showcase communities lacking in whiteness were also where crime was most rampant.

Thus, it had to go immediately.

If there’s hope, it lies not in the proles, but the successful implementation of algorithm policing programs predicting crime nationwide.

Data never lies the way social scientists creating new words/phrases to excuse away black criminality do.

[samildamach]

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/lammy-review-of-black-asian-and-minority-ethnic-bame-representation-in-the-criminal-justice-system-call-for-evidence

This is a link to David lammys report.
In summary he found that the justice system was no more likely to jail you based on colour.
The problem begins with disportionate stop and search(many reasons for this)on the black community, which leads to a mistrust of the police which leads to a mistrust of the judicial system.
Which leads to a black criminal less likely to pleading guilty and receiving a lengthier sentence as a result.
A jury is no more likely to find a black person guilty as a white person, even an all white jury.

[Gracy]

re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

Are they all the mindless mob?

nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive

Okay then, wow, dude I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to have to sleep on it to gain greater clarity on how to really take that.

So nearly 100% of the voices who say there exists systemic racism, are part of the "mindless mob". Huh...


Look, I can't go on www. mindlessmob.com to give you an exact number of people who don't understand the concept of systemic racism. What I'm offering is an opinion; it's not science. Imagine for a moment you told me you met lots of idiots in your life. And then imagine I followed you around all day, tapping your shoulder and demanding an exact count of them, along with the ratio of huge idiots to semi-huge idiots, and semi-huge to moderate, and so on and so forth


Mike, take a deep breath, and show me where I'm demanding exact numbers and statistics. Go ahead I'll wait...

You're painting with a very broad brush here, saying "nearly everyone" who has the opinion that there exists systemic racism is part of this angry mob, and I flat out don't think that's anywhere near the case. Maybe it looks that way to you because you're really hyper focused on the problem, but I can assure you it's not nearly everyone.

I've met lots of idiots in my life, but you'd not catch me going around saying nearly everyone I've ever met is an idiot. That's what you're doing.


If you cant see those mindless mobs, it could mean you're not paying any attention at all, or it could mean you may even be part of one without even knowing it.

Remember when I said this over on your thread?


Mike, I duly acknowledge there's a problem here needs serious dealing with, I just don't accept that it's as pervasive as it's being made out to be.

You're really hot under the collar over this thing, and I think it's starting to affect your judgment. You forget I've already agreed with you, just not to the extent where I'm ready to hang a nasty "angry mob" label on anyone who holds this opinion that you find so foul.

If that makes me ignorant, or unknowingly part of the mob myself, then so be it.

Have you considered that many thoughtful people may hold this opinion you so abhor, that aren't some brainwashed and mindless social justice warrior?

No need to answer that. And I promise to leave you be now, I just happen to think this is important. :heart:

[Dorjezigzag]

Munira Mirza, former Deputy Mayor of London for Education and Culture, discusses multiculturalism, identity politics, the myths of institutional racism and white privilege, racial disparities, offence culture, Brexit, liberalism, the European Union, polarisation, and a lot more with the guys at TRIGGERnometry.

She is from the UK but many of the points are relevant to the USA and wider world as well.

7ADPggwgJGQ

[Praxis]

Oh look, the White Supremacist dont think there is systemic racism. <--NOT OKAY

SHame on this board for allowing people like ________ while pushing away people like Mark/Rakhyt.

We have lost a great and powerful voice in our community because of the OVERT and supported racism.

I see some fighting the good fight( looking at you AutumnW) but the white nationalism is strong here.


So very disappointed in Bill Ryan. For an immigrant living in a foreign land to let this kind of racism exist on his platform is just WOW.

And for Bill to like and support Comments like the ones Mike generates, wow. I guess never meet your heroes.

Remember when this was a place about UFO and the strange and trying to be discerning intelligent people on those topics?

xxxMOD NOTExxx
First, let's avoid name calling. This topic is heated enough without throwing around insults. There is a big difference between someone who does not agree on whether or not systemic racism exists, or even what it is, and whether that person might be a "white supremacist."

Second, speaking only for myself, since I started the thread, I do appreciate everyone who is taking the time to contribute by commenting--regardless of whether or not I agree with what they're saying.

Third, you are very justified in expressing your frustration and disappointment. Let's just try to do it without making this into a mud-slinging contest.

Sarah Rainsong

[Ernie Nemeth]

Here in Canada, it is like being at the UN. You walk onto a job site and every language on earth is being spoken. And if you happen to need to talk to one of them you must wait while they finish speaking in their own language. They say it is rude to interrupt them. It is like living in ancient times working on the tower of Babel. Now we are told the number of judges does not sufficiently represent the proportion of minorities in the country. We don't seem to be worried about minority representation in government anymore, thanks to the Liberals under Trudeau.

We are racist because we are proud of our own heritage, and that heritage is being systemically vilified. The system is biased against whites of all races as we hurtle towards global government. There are far more blacks, browns, yellows and reds than there are whites - that's the reason for all this hate speech against whites. It is sanctioned by the champions of the world wide deep state who wish to implement their one world government.

Racism is normal behavior. It is what formed nations. Racism is abhorred in a world that wishes to be homogeneous.

The ghettos of American cities is how this NWO expects the majority of citizens to live once they have control. We will all live in squalor while a handful of very important men, mostly white, will hand down decrees to the rabble.

So if you are truly concerned about favoritism, the word that actually applies here and not racism, then you should be against any plans implemented by the NWO and its lackeys.

[Gemma13]

Vj7D4-VLZlQ

Keeping all the things I mind that Candace Owens just said, we still need to demand justice for George Floyd, but this should inform how we go about it.

This is an interesting, respectful and thoughtful conversation between Candace and Marc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Lamont_Hill), that stems from the comments that Candace shared in this video.

(BTW, thank you Krystian for sharing the video, I had been wondering at the time what Candace thought about what was going on, and appreciated hearing her perspective. And as a side note, I had already begun reading some of Thomas Sowell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell), and couldn't remember the other writers that she often mentions. I was happy to hear their names in the video you shared; Shelby Steele (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_Steele), and Walter Williams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_E._Williams).)

They each speak to the data and the issues coming from their unique perspectives.

HjDUUU-Z-aI


Oh look, the White Supremacist dont think there is systemic racism.

SHame on this board for allowing people like ________ while pushing away people like Mark/Rakhyt.

We have lost a great and powerful voice in our community because of the OVERT and supported racism.

I see some fighting the good fight( looking at you AutumnW) but the white nationalism is strong here.


So very disappointed in Bill Ryan. For an immigrant living in a foreign land to let this kind of racism exist on his platform is just WOW.

And for Bill to like and support Comments like the ones Mike generates, wow. I guess never meet your heroes.

Remember when this was a place about UFO and the strange and trying to be discerning intelligent people on those topics?

I don't get it. If a white person discusses the claim of systemic racism and offers opinions, experience and data re the confusion, they are vilified and labeled white supremacist.

So is a black woman, (e.g. Candace Owens but there are many more), who offers similar data points to the discussion, also a white supremacist? Have I missed seeing another label somewhere?

ADDED: Posted before I saw Sarah's comments. I am still very curious about this dilemma though.

[Sarah Rainsong]

Let's not get carried off into white supremacy. The point of the thread is What is systemic racism in America. Let people share their opinions, even if they think there is no such thing. This is the place to say that. Of course, everyone and anyone is free to disagree! Just remember, the point of the thread is primarily information gathering.

:focus:

[Mike]

Sorry for getting snippy Gracy May:bearhug: I was a little out of order there. My bad

And to Sarah, sorry for derailing.:flower:

[Ernie Nemeth]

I thought, by definition, that that is exactly what we are talking about - White Supremacy. Isn't that where 'systemic racism' derives its meaning? Wasn't it the 'white man' that came with his rules and laws and armies? Didn't they set up the 'system' to favor themselves? Isn't that the system we are talking about? That's what I am talking about. That is where racism comes from, is it not?

[graciousb]

There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

"X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.

This brings to mind a wonderful multi part documentary called Daughters of Destiny. A successful American businessman born in India, attempts to help lift girls from the ''untouchable'' caste, starting at age four to college, with the hope it will make systemic changes in their communities as well as themselves. A very well intended effort with poignant outcomes. Riveting and eye opening doc.

I won't spoil it if anyone hasn't seen it but I have seen a less dramatic version of it in my own family where each parent came from a distinctly different social class, (even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do).

There's a sense of disloyalty if one's steps ''above one's station'', ''who do you think you are!?" Know your place kind of thing. My mother came from working class Swedish immigrant family, her mother worked as a maid, my father from a much more educated and established middle class family but had also experienced poverty during the depression. But when times improved, the one side took advantage of opportunities that were there, had a broader field of options to choose from in upward mobility, most importantly in the ability to even imagine other possibilities.

On my mother's side, there was actual disdain and suspicion for those who wanted to ''better'' themselves, unless it was within narrow parameters, or live a creative life that wasn't in their cultural script, or even getting too successful, which would make one admired in a way but treated as ''other'' also. I straddled these cultures and always noticed the differences. And in a family of several siblings and many many cousins, each drifted to their own ghettos of sorts, and don't mix really. Even though they are the same ethnic culture and related by blood.

Culture is everything! And particularly the notion of social ''class'' not discussed, somehow taboo? It's not the amount of melanin in one's skin or the architecture of one's face that is crucial, but the culture the individual springs from, tribal, familial, and what its membership ''rules'' are. I think there does seem to be on the surface echoes of systemic racism, in housing, opportunities, education, but if one really looks deeply at families, what happens in families, it's cultural. Some of the same social problems exist across races in the US, persistent poverty, functional illiteracy, substandard housing, single parent families, and a world of low expectations. Poor white, poor American black and native people. Much less found in many Asian, African and middle eastern origin people. But the plight of all struggling and chronically poor is not newsworthy apparently.

Current events feel like a huge deflection from the true source of inequities. A ''look here'' not there kind of thing so we scrap amongst ourselves and don't disturb the true status quo.

These limits are so strong, magnetic. Those who jump class can lose their sense of community, feel unseen, adrift, no social mirroring, and this so demonstrates how connection and a sense of belonging to us humans is life itself, and that it can feel better to clip ones wings and feel ''home'', rather than feel an ''other'' and lost in a wider world.

[AutumnW]

Systemic racism is a real thing in the U.S. Wise not to put too fine a point on life or death issues, like what Blacks have to put up with from police -- and that is what the protests are about.

They are not about frustrated upward mobility or a lack of generational transfer of assets. It's mighty nasty when you are shut out of home ownership, by policy. Catherine Austin Fitts goes to great lengths describing that process. It's called, 'redlining.'

Still, that's not what the protests are about. They are about police brutality and murder of African American ethnicities who are dark skinned.

I spoke to a Chicago cop about six years ago who told me he felt so sorry for new cops coming into the force. The reason? Why, before surveillance by cell phone, and their own dashboard mounted camera, "it was so easy to beat the **** out of people when the stress of the job started getting to you. It just keeps getting tougher for us to beat people up!" Note he didn't imply that beating someone up had anything to do with what they had actually done but was a way of releasing stress.

And you bloody well know he wasn't talking about beating up white people. The outrage Americans of all ethnicities are feeling now has a lot to do with increased transparency of police through cell phone monitoring. And it is STILL really bad.

[Delight]

(even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do)

Very sound point graciousb: there has been and IS a caste system that has been perpetuated generationally. The glue of "this is YOUR place" is spread within families, communities and across society. This fact is obvious but remains unspeakable. It suits the high caste to remain there and they feel absolutely entitled "by divine order" to protect the position. The rest of us low caste people are fools if we think other wise. That is the feudal order of the matrix. However one has to be able to step 'outside' the parameters to see it. IMO people who have "stepped out" KNOW that the system is corrupt and corroded. IMO it is falling to pieces because it is absolutely decayed and cannot stand.
This conversation is an attempt to look at what could create a better world for us all.

SXOUCRLW2UI

[graciousb]

Sorry, FBI statistics don't back you up. And yes bad cops have beat s..t out of all races.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

"X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.  

So my main point to contribute here is that there are institutional problems that are not coming from so called "white privilege".  When the indigenous culture is fractured and finding it difficult to help each other, how in gods name are non indigenous people supposed to help.

This is why I am deeply disappointed in the division being created from BLM because it is seriously jeopardizing and hampering indigenous people, let alone everyone else, trying to help families/groups within their communities.



(even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do)

Very sound point graciousb: there has been and IS a caste system that has been perpetuated generationally. The glue of "this is YOUR place" is spread within families, communities and across society. This fact is obvious but remains unspeakable. It suits the high caste to remain there and they feel absolutely entitled "by divine order" to protect the position. The rest of us low caste people are fools if we think other wise. That is the feudal order of the matrix. However one has to be able to step 'outside' the parameters to see it. IMO people who have "stepped out" KNOW that the system is corrupt and corroded. IMO it is falling to pieces because it is absolutely decayed and cannot stand.
This conversation is an attempt to look at what could create a better world for us all.

SXOUCRLW2UI

Yes. The TRUE elites, those behind the curtain, no idea of their numbers, but for them even ''high caste'' professionals, academics, physicians, entertainers...are employees and perform at their pleasure. "Eyes wide shut'' film comes to mind, the inner circle is unknown to us and even an affluent dr and his wife aren't in.

[Tintin]

Munira Mirza, former Deputy Mayor of London for Education and Culture, discusses multiculturalism, identity politics, the myths of institutional racism and white privilege, racial disparities, offence culture, Brexit, liberalism, the European Union, polarisation, and a lot more with the guys at TRIGGERnometry.

She is from the UK but many of the points are relevant to the USA and wider world as well.

7ADPggwgJGQ

This is gold - I'm only 12 minutes in and already the conversation gushes good sense and flows effortlessly, and at times humorously.

A really good find: indeed, what is discussed would apply to anywhere where there exists cultural diversity and nuance. It really is excellent and thanks for sharing it here.

:thumbsup:

[Justjane]

There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

"X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.

This brings to mind a wonderful multi part documentary called Daughters of Destiny. A successful American businessman born in India, attempts to help lift girls from the ''untouchable'' caste, starting at age four to college, with the hope it will make systemic changes in their communities as well as themselves. A very well intended effort with poignant outcomes. Riveting and eye opening doc.

I won't spoil it if anyone hasn't seen it but I have seen a less dramatic version of it in my own family where each parent came from a distinctly different social class, (even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do).

There's a sense of disloyalty if one's steps ''above one's station'', ''who do you think you are!?" Know your place kind of thing. My mother came from working class Swedish immigrant family, her mother worked as a maid, my father from a much more educated and established middle class family but had also experienced poverty during the depression. But when times improved, the one side took advantage of opportunities that were there, had a broader field of options to choose from in upward mobility, most importantly in the ability to even imagine other possibilities.

On my mother's side, there was actual disdain and suspicion for those who wanted to ''better'' themselves, unless it was within narrow parameters, or live a creative life that wasn't in their cultural script, or even getting too successful, which would make one admired in a way but treated as ''other'' also. I straddled these cultures and always noticed the differences. And in a family of several siblings and many many cousins, each drifted to their own ghettos of sorts, and don't mix really. Even though they are the same ethnic culture and related by blood.

Culture is everything! And particularly the notion of social ''class'' not discussed, somehow taboo? It's not the amount of melanin in one's skin or the architecture of one's face that is crucial, but the culture the individual springs from, tribal, familial, and what its membership ''rules'' are. I think there does seem to be on the surface echoes of systemic racism, in housing, opportunities, education, but if one really looks deeply at families, what happens in families, it's cultural. Some of the same social problems exist across races in the US, persistent poverty, functional illiteracy, substandard housing, single parent families, and a world of low expectations. Poor white, poor American black and native people. Much less found in many Asian, African and middle eastern origin people. But the plight of all struggling and chronically poor is not newsworthy apparently.

Current events feel like a huge deflection from the true source of inequities. A ''look here'' not there kind of thing so we scrap amongst ourselves and don't disturb the true status quo.

These limits are so strong, magnetic. Those who jump class can lose their sense of community, feel unseen, adrift, no social mirroring, and this so demonstrates how connection and a sense of belonging to us humans is life itself, and that it can feel better to clip ones wings and feel ''home'', rather than feel an ''other'' and lost in a wider world.

What you’re both describing here is a function of systemic racism. The idea that the ‘white’ way of life or determinants of success are the only way of life or determinants of success. This is an issue for indigenous cultures across the world. White people invade a country, and as Ernie said, establish the ‘system’, the laws, rules, mores both legal and cultural, to support themselves and eradicate the system of the culture they’ve invaded.

Not participating in white culture is a form of rebellion and resistance that leads to poverty and its consequences since no alternative is allowed. You must be able to participate economically in the white world otherwise you literally can’t survive and have no power to effect any change.

The indigenous communities of Australia had their entire culture eradicated leading to their children being forcibly removed, loss of identity and loss of way of life. They are not allowed to live any other way than what we have determined for them. I would have thought people in the alternative community would be able to at least understand their perspective. I know I yearn for an alternative way of living, getting off grid, living off the country, raising and educating my children according to my values. Unfortunately that requires resources. Luckily for me, I was raised in the system, in a relatively well off family. I know how it works, I know how to manipulate it for my own ends. Indigenous cultures don’t have that luxury. And given their loss of culture, loss of identity and loss of way of life, loss of children and loved ones, they are not in a place to even now determine how it is they want to live and they’re certainly not supported in finding out.

And it would be remiss of me to fail to point out, that us white people sitting here today discussing whether or not systemic racism exists, is racist in and of itself.

[Mike]

Oh look, the White Supremacist dont think there is systemic racism. <--NOT OKAY

SHame on this board for allowing people like ________ while pushing away people like Mark/Rakhyt.

We have lost a great and powerful voice in our community because of the OVERT and supported racism.

I see some fighting the good fight( looking at you AutumnW) but the white nationalism is strong here.


So very disappointed in Bill Ryan. For an immigrant living in a foreign land to let this kind of racism exist on his platform is just WOW.

And for Bill to like and support Comments like the ones Mike generates, wow. I guess never meet your heroes.

Remember when this was a place about UFO and the strange and trying to be discerning intelligent people on those topics?

xxxMOD NOTExxx
First, let's avoid name calling. This topic is heated enough without throwing around insults. There is a big difference between someone who does not agree on whether or not systemic racism exists, or even what it is, and whether that person might be a "white supremacist."

Second, speaking only for myself, since I started the thread, I do appreciate everyone who is taking the time to contribute by commenting--regardless of whether or not I agree with what they're saying.

Third, you are very justified in expressing your frustration and disappointment. Let's just try to do it without making this into a mud-slinging contest.

Sarah Rainsong



No one pushed Mark away. He left on his own. He's a big boy and he has to take responsibility for that. You like to play the blame game though, so your analysis isn't surprising.

The media, the universities, the professors, and now corporate America are all falling in line with Mark's ideas of white supremacy, white privilege, white frailty, systemic racism, and so on. It's like a social justice wet dream. He won. The machine is in motion; no one can stop it at this point..certainly not a handful of dissidents on a small chat forum. He should be jumping up and down in the streets with joy. But instead he's quitting Avalon because a few people on a small, niche forum won't play along??? And you think that's some tragic injustice? Don't forget, Mark also had his own thread basically (Bill's thread, technically..but Mark was the main contributor) that he spammed with social justice themes mostly uninterrupted for months on end. So he can't say he was treated unfairly.

Back on topic: It might be useful if we all had a working definition of systemic racism. Might be cool if everyone posting explained what it means to them before we move any further. If we could arrive at something that most of us agreed with, or at least some framework by which we could all operate in, it might add a little structure to help move the conversation forward constructively. Just my 2 cents.

Because, in my opinion, there are some elements of what I believe "systemic racism" is that are valid and deserve to be spoken about and dissected. I also think there's quite a bit of fat that needs to be trimmed off. But I think to do a slow and methodical dissection and inspection of all it's elements, we first need to identify clearly what those elements are.

[Justjane]

Here in Canada, it is like being at the UN. You walk onto a job site and every language on earth is being spoken. And if you happen to need to talk to one of them you must wait while they finish speaking in their own language. They say it is rude to interrupt them. It is like living in ancient times working on the tower of Babel.

Isn’t it just polite to wait for any person to finish speaking? Why turn this into a race issue?

[Praxis]

There is something called the fourteen words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

They are "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" with an alt version going like "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."

This is also a White Genocide manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory"

So next time you say there is White Genocide happening, congratulations you are using White Nationalist language. If it look like a duck and quacks like one . . . .



But that is not even the good part. The Department of Homeland Security under Donald Trump and Stephen Miller issued this

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/15/we-must-secure-border-and-build-wall-make-america-safe-again


The title of the memo is "We Must Secure The Border And Build The Wall To Make America Safe Again"

Sound familiar.

What about the Cops with the three percent flags on them? How many cops do you see that are allowed to have Black Panthers patches on their uniform?

If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

How long do you have to think like one before you become one?

You can be all these things without having a swastika on your body, without you even thinking you are. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT SYSTEMIC.

I too used to have a VERY negative response to the suggestion that White Culture should not exist. I felt that they were attacking my Norwegian Heritage of which I am proud. But they were not. The fact that I felt that they were talking about me just shows how deep White Supremacy is in America. Why do you think Mark was here trying to engage this community? He saw potential for change in the same way that I changed once I realized that since I am not a White Nationalist they actually werent talking about me and my culture and heritage.

[Mike]

The "next" time I say there is white genocide occurring will be the first time. I've never said that. Not once. Ever.

You want me so badly to be the white demon of your imagination that you're now just inventing things

Someday you'll be very embarrassed by all this. Till then, back to topic.

[AutumnW]

The media, the universities, the professors, and now corporate America are all falling in line with Mark's ideas of white supremacy, white privilege, white frailty, systemic racism, and so on. It's like a social justice wet dream. He won. MIKE

Why are you conflating this with systemic racism? Corporate America is putting lipstick on the pig of racism and telling you everything is okay, when its not. They are worried about losing customers but any changes they make will be ones that will likely amount to very little and be highly symbolic, ritualistic and manipulative.

Are the universities involved in working with the justice system to change policing?

And the media? Really? From a foreigner's perspective you would have thought the entire city of Minneapolis was on fire. They are part of the problem and incite white fear of being lynched, for God's sakes. Just because they hire a few sell-outs, like Candace Owens doesn't mean they are fighting systemic racism. They are actually feeding it. White folks (non-protesters) will support more harsh law and order militarized policing, as a consequence.


Militarized Policing---Systemic Racism



Grossman also enticed his audience by noting that killing can lead to great sex.

“Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex. There’s not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it,” he said in the same course.

The retired Army ranger and former West Point instructor, teaches a course called “The Bulletproof Mind,” where he teaches officers the logic behind killing. He offers online classes through Grossman Academy for $US79.

His overly aggressive style prepares law enforcement officers for a job under siege, where they’re front line troops who are “at war” with the streets. Officers need to be prepared to battle the communities they’re told to protect, Grossman has said. And ideally in Grossman’s eyes, officers need to learn to kill less hesitantly.

Grossman, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment from Insider, is part of a larger industry of controversial militarised and fear-based police training educators, that also includes psychologist William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, whose work has been called “pseudoscience” by the American Journal of Psychology.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/bulletproof-dave-grossman-police-trainer-teaching-officers-how-to-kill-2020-6

[Dorjezigzag]

If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

So on this train of thought, talking about white privilege you're a white supremacist. Yeah anyone who uses that broad brush stroke of 'white priviledge' in my opinion is a rascist.

Oh and using the term Uncle Tom in relation to Candace Owens is racist as well, who do you think you are to tell her how she thinks autumn.

[Sarah Rainsong]

Careful... :heart:

Praxis did not call out anyone by name, so I assume that he is using the generic form of "you," which grammatically would be better expressed as "one." But we really don't need to employ the grammar police, do we? That's a form of police brutality that we can easily avoid. :p

But since Praxis did refer to Mike in a previous post, it's understandable that Mike would assume the post was directed at him. Now that he has clarified his verbage and defended himself, let's assume that matter has been addressed and is closed.


There is something called the fourteen words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

They are "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" with an alt version going like "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."

This is also a White Genocide manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory"

So next time you say there is White Genocide happening, congratulations you are using White Nationalist language. If it look like a duck and quacks like one . . . .



But that is not even the good part. The Department of Homeland Security under Donald Trump and Stephen Miller issued this

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/15/we-must-secure-border-and-build-wall-make-america-safe-again


The title of the memo is "We Must Secure The Border And Build The Wall To Make America Safe Again"

Sound familiar.

What about the Cops with the three percent flags on them? How many cops do you see that are allowed to have Black Panthers patches on their uniform?

If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

How long do you have to think like one before you become one?

You can be all these things without having a swastika on your body, without you even thinking you are. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT SYSTEMIC.

I too used to have a VERY negative response to the suggestion that White Culture should not exist. I felt that they were attacking my Norwegian Heritage of which I am proud. But they were not. The fact that I felt that they were talking about me just shows how deep White Supremacy is in America. Why do you think Mark was here trying to engage this community? He saw potential for change in the same way that I changed once I realized that since I am not a White Nationalist they actually werent talking about me and my culture and heritage.


The "next" time I say there is white genocide occurring will be the first time. I've never said that. Not once. Ever.

You want me so badly to be the white demon of your imagination that you're now just inventing things

Someday you'll be very embarrassed by all this. Till then, back to topic.

[Sarah Rainsong]

Back on topic: It might be useful if we all had a working definition of systemic racism. Might be cool if everyone posting explained what it means to them before we move any further. If we could arrive at something that most of us agreed with, or at least some framework by which we could all operate in, it might add a little structure to help move the conversation forward constructively. Just my 2 cents.

Because, in my opinion, there are some elements of what I believe "systemic racism" is that are valid and deserve to be spoken about and dissected. I also think there's quite a bit of fat that needs to be trimmed off. But I think to do a slow and methodical dissection and inspection of all it's elements, we first need to identify clearly what those elements are.

This is exactly what I had in mind. :happythumbsup: And I do appreciate everyone contributing their thoughts in a reasoned, explanatory way, if a little heated or emotional at times.

[Forest Denizen]

…Don't forget, Mark also had his own thread basically (Bill's thread, technically..but Mark was the main contributor) that he spammed with social justice themes mostly uninterrupted for months on end. So he can't say he was treated unfairly…

Mike, I have great respect for you despite the fact that we are of different mindsets regarding this issue. But I think your statement about Mark here is a little unfair and I’m sorry, Sarah, but I want to address this briefly. To call his active posting on and engagement with the racism thread, spam, is a bit much. As one of the only (if not the only) active black members on the forum, can you blame him for trying to make the vastly white majority on this forum understand what it is like to be a black person in America today?

Very telling that he encountered such staunch resistance from so many (white) forum members who can’t possibly know what it is to walk in a black man or woman’s shoes. I understand his frustration. Sometimes it might be better for one’s own emotional well being to just walk away, especially when so many folks are just not understanding where one is coming from.

[Dorjezigzag]

so many (white) forum members who can’t possibly know what it is to walk in a black man or woman’s shoes

Another assumption based on race which is racism, Many on the forum have experienced being a minority whether it being race nationality, disability, or economic status. Most Black people would not claim to have exclusivity to suffering. I saw no staunch resistance to Mark, just some people with a different opinion. Your fawning of Mark is quite sickly and patronising.

[Sarah Rainsong]

so many (white) forum members who can’t possibly know what it is to walk in a black man or woman’s shoes

Another assumption based on race which is racism, Many on the forum have experienced being a minority whether it being race nationality, disability, or economic status. Most Black people would not claim to have exclusivity to suffering. I saw no staunch resistance to Mark, just people with a different opinion. Your fawning of Mark is quite sickly and patronising.

You're entitled to your opinions, but being disappointed or disheartened that a long time member of the forum felt the need to leave is NOT fawning. Tread carefully.

[Sarah Rainsong]

<snip>Just because they hire a few Uncle Toms, like Candace Owens doesn't mean they are fighting systemic racism. <snip>

The term "Uncle Tom" is generally considered a racist and offensive term. Let's do better.

[Dorjezigzag]

so many (white) forum members who can’t possibly know what it is to walk in a black man or woman’s shoes

Another assumption based on race which is racism, Many on the forum have experienced being a minority whether it being race nationality, disability, or economic status. Most Black people would not claim to have exclusivity to suffering. I saw no staunch resistance to Mark, just people with a different opinion. Your fawning of Mark is quite sickly and patronising.

You're entitled to your opinions, but being disappointed or disheartened that a long time member of the forum felt the need to leave is NOT fawning. Tread carefully.

No he's used the situation which was Marks choice as a guilt trip which is in bad taste.

To be quite honest I saw through this thread from the start, I see your intentions. I'll tread with a strong and honest heart as I always do.

[Sarah Rainsong]

so many (white) forum members who can’t possibly know what it is to walk in a black man or woman’s shoes

Another assumption based on race which is racism, Many on the forum have experienced being a minority whether it being race nationality, disability, or economic status. Most Black people would not claim to have exclusivity to suffering. I saw no staunch resistance to Mark, just people with a different opinion. Your fawning of Mark is quite sickly and patronising.

You're entitled to your opinions, but being disappointed or disheartened that a long time member of the forum felt the need to leave is NOT fawning. Tread carefully.

No he's used the situation which was Marks choice as a guilt trip which is in bad taste.

To be quite honest I saw through this thread from the start, I see your intentions. I'll tread with a strong and honest heart as I always do.

What is in bad taste and completely unhelpful are comments like the above. If you have nothing to contribute other than antagonizing or derailing the conversation, then please refrain from commenting.

:focus:

[Mike]

Careful... :heart:

Praxis did not call out anyone by name, so I assume that he is using the generic form of "you," which grammatically would be better expressed as "one." But we really don't need to employ the grammar police, do we? That's a form of police brutality that we can easily avoid. :p

But since Praxis did refer to Mike in a previous post, it's understandable that Mike would assume the post was directed at him. Now that he has clarified his verbage and defended himself, let's assume that matter has been addressed and is closed.


There is something called the fourteen words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

They are "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" with an alt version going like "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."

This is also a White Genocide manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory"

So next time you say there is White Genocide happening, congratulations you are using White Nationalist language. If it look like a duck and quacks like one . . . .



But that is not even the good part. The Department of Homeland Security under Donald Trump and Stephen Miller issued this

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/15/we-must-secure-border-and-build-wall-make-america-safe-again


The title of the memo is "We Must Secure The Border And Build The Wall To Make America Safe Again"

Sound familiar.

What about the Cops with the three percent flags on them? How many cops do you see that are allowed to have Black Panthers patches on their uniform?

If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

How long do you have to think like one before you become one?

You can be all these things without having a swastika on your body, without you even thinking you are. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT SYSTEMIC.

I too used to have a VERY negative response to the suggestion that White Culture should not exist. I felt that they were attacking my Norwegian Heritage of which I am proud. But they were not. The fact that I felt that they were talking about me just shows how deep White Supremacy is in America. Why do you think Mark was here trying to engage this community? He saw potential for change in the same way that I changed once I realized that since I am not a White Nationalist they actually werent talking about me and my culture and heritage.


The "next" time I say there is white genocide occurring will be the first time. I've never said that. Not once. Ever.

You want me so badly to be the white demon of your imagination that you're now just inventing things

Someday you'll be very embarrassed by all this. Till then, back to topic.



hey Sarah, I really appreciate your energy and your trying to create a healthy space for a good discussion:bearhug:

I'd like to be part of that good energy!

I think this thread has tons of potential.

It's much easier to get angry or annoyed than it is to think!:) I'm certainly guilty of that. That crap needs to stop. So I'll do my best moving forward.

I started writing about systemic racism, but then I stopped because my energy was still a little hectic. I'm gonna think on this as deeply as my feeble little brain is capable. I'm gonna try to shed some ego and approach this as openly and honestly as I can, and leave my need to "win" at the door. Lets see if I can do it LOL

I was actually considering starting a thread where we'd all be obligated to argue the other side in good faith. So, for example, I'd be forced to argue for social justice and BLM and so forth. I think it would be a great way for all of us to get out of our ideological boxes.

But I digress. I'm gonna go think for a bit. Hopefully I'll have something meaningful to offer when I return

[AutumnW]

If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

So on this train of thought, talking about white privilege you're a white supremacist. Yeah anyone who uses that broad brush stroke of 'white priviledge' in my opinion is a rascist.

Oh and using the term Uncle Tom in relation to Candace Owens is racist as well, who do you think you are to tell her how she thinks autumn.

Having been quite confused about how this could be misconstrued as being racist (Uncle Toms) when it is a term used to deride sell outs within the black community, I looked up the term and found I had the modern definition right. I can only assume it is considered an insult because it may be too broadly applied....like if a black person works for a white person, in any capacity. I think it is completely appropriate to describe Candace Owens this way but in the interest of protecting racially sensitive members, like yourself, I will use the term, "sell-out" in the future.

[AutumnW]

<snip>Just because they hire a few Uncle Toms, like Candace Owens doesn't mean they are fighting systemic racism. <snip>

The term "Uncle Tom" is generally considered a racist and offensive term. Let's do better.

I actually did not know that, but thought about it and now I think I get it. My only American experience is living in Seattle in the '90's nad the subject of racism never even came up. Yeah...looking back, that's how bad it probably was!

[Catsquotl]

My only American experience is living in Seattle in the '90's nad the subject of racism never even came up. Yeah...looking back, that's how bad it probably was!

Even you have to admit that times have changed rather drastically since the 90's. Even though the topic never came up when you were in Seattle does not mean it wasn't there. Or people did not suffer from it.

As far as this thread goes. There's a few of them now addressing the same issue. Ideally from different sides, but actually all just stuck in the same dichotomized fashion.

As for taking the opposite side and trying to defend. That is exactly the kind of dumbing down the problem to an intellectual excersis. I've immersed myself for a few days to some of the systemic racism denyers. I've even tried some of their thought structures on for size.

Personally I found that they don't fit me and everywhere I see them used I get a feeling something is very very wrong.

And without an answer all that immersion did was solidify my own ideas and feelings. which so called rationalisation only muddled further.

I've come to realize that talking about this stuff from the safety of a phones touch keyboard is as effective as trying to imagine being caught in Africa, chained to a bunk in a ship and sold off to work on another continent. Seeing your children sold from you. Somehow being able to flee or buy your freedom. Only to find yourself unable to function in a dominantly white imported society where nobody knows anymore how together we have created this entire mess.

[Jayke]

Now we’ve got the term ‘systemic racism deniers’ being thrown around by people who haven’t even bothered to define what it is in any coherent way yet. The only example Catsqoutl has given so far is an anecdotal story of a brown girl in white school that has jokes said to her.

That’s not an example of ‘systemic racism’, that’s an example of ‘human nature’. Any minority kid in a majority school would face the same problem.

Holding white people to an unrealistic idealised standard, one that no other skin colour is capable of giving is a form of ‘systematic racism’ in itself. White guilt isn’t going to change human nature and attitudes towards black people that the Chinese hold for instance.

Slavery from a couple hundred years ago is used as an example while ignoring the slave trade thats alive and kicking in Africa to this very day. All while ignoring the systemised rape and murder of white farmers in modern day Africa.

It’s this myopic, one-sided compassion that I find nauseating. The head in the sand over all the other issues in the world to focus on something as trivial as a jokes being made. The horrors.

Can someone who thinks ‘systemic racism’ is a genuine thing, and not just a divisive tactic rolled out by the ‘system’ overlords, please give it a succinct definition, with a couple poignant examples of how it’s affected you or your community personally. Once we’ve got that baseline then we’ll be able to determine whether it’s a legitimate cause or not.

[Catsquotl]

Fwiw. My example was not meant as a definition of systemic racism. It was a response to one sided examples that are used to further a largest agenda. Something that is far from being a definition or even significant in this discussion.

Bill quoted a definintion and Mike as well as myself have commented on how we understand the term.

Please read before rambling.

[Orobo]

Hi,
This was a post that didn't fit, at all. Got carried away..so Carry on.

Love, O.

[Jayke]

Fwiw. My example was not meant as a definition of systemic racism. It was a response to one sided examples that are used to further a largest agenda. Something that is far from being a definition or even significant in this discussion.

Bill quoted a definintion and Mike as well as myself have commented on how we understand the term.

Please read before rambling.

Yeah, I read Bills post, here it is as a refresher:



@mike, how would you define systemic?I'd be interested in Mike's answer. I'd also be interested in Sarah Rainsong's definition. (She started this thread a few hours ago.)

I looked it up. There are many "definitions", but here are two, from this USA Today page (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/15/systemic-racism-what-does-mean/5343549002/):


What is systemic racism?

NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] President Derrick Johnson defined systemic racism, also called structural racism or institutional racism, as "systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantages African Americans."

Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward and publisher of Colorlines, defined it as "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives."

"Systemic racism is naming the process of white supremacy," Harris said.

Harris said systemic racism creates disparities in many "success indicators" including wealth, the criminal justice system, employment, housing, health care, politics and education. He said that although the concept dates back to work done by scholar and civil rights pioneer W.E.B. Du Bois, the concept was first named during the civil rights movement of the 1960s and was further refined in the 1980s.

Also see this thread:


The Knowing Racism of the US Federal Reserve (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111251-The-Knowing-Racism-of-the-US-Federal-Reserve)


I debunked this specific definition (“Systemic racism is naming the process of white supremacy“) by sharing the insights of Thomas Sowell earlier in the thread, which showed it’s a ridiculous statement because the supreme culture in institutions of higher learning are actually the Chinese, but that’s due to their insanely strict work ethic. I’m guessing you didn’t read that post though eh :facepalm:

I also read the several posts by Mike and Sarah asking for other people to explain their understanding and definitions of ‘systemic racism’.
So now not only have you not provided a definition that you personally go by. You’ve also backtracked and said the example you used earlier isn’t even an example of systemic racism. Why were you rambling about ‘systemic racism deniers’ when you haven’t even provided an example of what it even is. :facepalm::facepalm:

I’m asking for what is significant in this discussion.

Autumn seems to conflate ‘systemic racism’ with technocracy and tyranny with her points about militarised police. Systemic corruption sure, but not examples of systemic racism.
Praxis was just chanting ‘white supremacy’ with all the incoherence of Jack Nicholson in one flew over the cuckoos nest.
Gracy has said it’s something she’s really passionate about, yet shared no personal stories or her personal definition or understanding of the issue.
And you just disingenuously virtue signal and flip flop over what should be a very simple couple of questions.

What does systemic racism mean to you?
Can you share a couple poignant examples of how it’s impacted you or your local community personally?

If it’s such an important topic, why are the main purveyors of the concept so incapable of describing the issue with any degree of intelligence?

[Ernie Nemeth]

I think this thread along with a few others is a fine example of how we are immersed in a psi-op and don't even know it, let alone realize how pervasive and comprehensive it is.

Words and phrases have been appropriated by movements and their definitions are not fixed. We argue back and forth but we are not on the same page. We are not even arguing the same idea.

I for one do not accept any repurposed definitions with loose parameters. Systemic racism does not have a specific meaning. It is two words put together. That does not make those words less specific, it should make it far more specific.

But, you see, we have a word like racism that we do not even agree on its definition. And systemic seems to have problems of its own. You cannot have a meaningful conversation if everyone has their own special definitions they are operating under.

The reason is quite clear. North America is a special case. The white man didn't just come and conquer and rape this place, they took it over and sent the indigenous people packing. North America is like a world wide orphanage. People who for whatever reason must flee their homeland consider it their refuge. Here race of every type is nose to nose, trying to live with their neighbors who were their sworn enemies back home, and others who have never been this close together ever. Race comes to the fore in a situation like that, and it has.

But what is race, because it has many definitions and many affiliations and movements wanting to commandeer the narrative. They put their special twist on words and phrases and suddenly 'systemic racism' is solely about blacks? No

Maybe they felt like their narrative was slipping, perhaps they felt newcomers were getting too much attention, who knows. The fact is that systemic racism is not a black problem, it is an everybody problem except for the upper .1%.

It is the same rhetoric used in the occupy wall street movement. Put like that it is a valid movement. Singling out one oppressed race above the rest of us is not helpful right now.

The world has moved on. Either we are all included or there is no movement.

[Gracy]

Well Jayke, you’re quite compelling at pointing a distorted finger of guilt at everyone with whom you disagree, but the big blue ribbon you give your own contribution, is nothing but a supposed debunking with an opinion piece by Thomas Sowell.

How about giving us a little bit more than a copy/paste of what you’re demanding? :thumbsup:

[Bill Ryan]

Regarding definitions, I think the first half of this excellent new interview of Jon Stewart by Joe Rogan (before they move on to other things) may cover at least some of this quite well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXOUCRLW2UI
The term "systemic racism" is never used in their most interesting conversation (all of which I emphatically agree with), but Jon Stewart very eloquently (and seriously) describes how angry he's become. It's clear what he's describing, and it's real.

"Systemic racism" (to refer to the title of this thread) is only a subset of the larger issue [my paraphrase], which is the relentless and mounting financial oppression of regular American people. But blacks often become specially disadvantaged. I can see that crystal clearly.

The inequities are multiple and huge, some of them have now been in place for generations, and the system is essentially corrupt and financially class-based. It really is broken. But it's very hard to see how it can all be reformed without the entire country being dismantled. (And that might happen.)

(Chris Martenson makes the same points in many of his recent videos, and he's crushingly critical of the factors that have been laid in place, he claims deliberately, to set the scene for all the current problems.)

[Jayke]

Well Jayke, you’re quite compelling at pointing a distorted finger of guilt at everyone with whom you disagree, but the big blue ribbon you give your own contribution, is nothing but a supposed debunking with an opinion piece by Thomas Sowell.

How about giving us a little bit more than a copy/paste of what you’re demanding? :thumbsup:

“Pointing a distorted finger of guilt”

You can try and gaslight as much as you like Gracy, but you wont be able to find an exact qoute from me where I’ve ‘pointed a distorted finger of guilt‘ at anyone. I only ever point to the objective facts and evidence.

The whole point of my posts is that the definition of ‘systemic racism’ is defunk, because as Bill and Ernie both pointed out above, the whole system is corrupt, blaming white people for that systemic corruption is where the distorted finger of guilt gets pointed in the wrong direction. Trying to scapegoat one race of people for the problems of an entire system is a form of racism.

[AuCo]

Systemic Racism: Racism by design? That is how understand it so I ask myself who designed it, when and for what purpose? Think about it and we might be able to come to a logical conclusion. Though I observe how it is being used.

It is being pushed upon the have-not as a war cry against the have as a mean to divide and weaken the mass.

[rgray222]

"Systemic racism" (to refer to the title of this thread) is only a subset of the larger issue [my paraphrase], which is the relentless and mounting financial oppression of regular American people. But blacks often become especially disadvantaged. I can see that crystal clearly.

The inequities are multiple and huge, some of them have now been in place for generations, and the system is essentially corrupt and financially class-based. It really is broken. But it's very hard to see how it can all be reformed without the entire country being dismantled. (And that might happen.)

 
Political parties exist to help the downtrodden and disadvantaged. What would happen if there were no disadvantaged people? Political parties exist to help victims. What would happen if there were no victims? Political parties create the downtrodden, the disadvantaged, and victims. This unholy and unspoken truth is a worldwide phenomenon, not just one happening in the USA. The fact the black lives matter is mutating (intentional choice of words) into a political party right before our very eyes is living proof that political parties exist to help the perceived victims.

Once you have your victims and downtrodden then you need billions and billions of dollars to fix the problems that you actually created but no one stops long enough to think and figure it out. We are all too busy arguing over systemic racism rather than looking a bit deeper for the real villains in this story. If you're not arguing about racism then you might be out tearing down statues. It is all diversion, sleight of hand. Being "woke" to every little issue on the planet is a complete waste of time. We need to be awakened to a much broader picture of who is responsible for and why have these problems perpetuated  

Immigration created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
Inner-city schools, created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
Poverty created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
Hunger created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
Energy created 100% by politicians. imminently solvable.
Climate Change/Global Warming - This issue politicians are using for personal wealth and career aspiration. This is a solvable issue.

When I say poverty and hunger are solvable I mean that we have enough resources on the planet so that no human should ever be hungry or live destitute.

If we simply stop arguing amongst ourselves long enough to see the world clearly we could begin to solve the unsolvable. If we start looking a bit deeper and connect the dots we could begin change. I don't believe it is necessary, but, I do believe that everything will be broken before we can make the necessary changes.

[shaberon]

The Immigration, etc., issues may be "created" by politicians, but this is mainly because they listen to vested interests, or Capitalists, so it perhaps is more accurate that Capitalists created the issues using politicians as drone workers.

Under the terms of the Constitution, if there was no such thing as privatized central banking, real estate, mortgage, and so forth, the resources at the very least could not be hogged in this manner. The Constitution is not for Democracy or Capitalism. Everything seems to keep pointing at the same main issues, which, historically, have this one known solution.

Reverting or phasing back to that system might not necessarily "dismantle" the country, but it would pull a lot of plugs. One of the long-standing fears has always been what if social benefit payments were ever more than a couple days late. I am not sure what would happen if they are removed entirely. Part of the motivation might be for "accumulated capital" to "protect itself" by funding private charities that actually work.

That would be more like holding a riot at someone's head and they have to answer by satisfying your demands.

Going after the police and the "isms" is like rioting around their shoes and they will just find another rotten fruit to keep you at bay.

[Sarah Rainsong]

First of all, if you are angry, take a deep breath and analyze why. We are here for discussion. This is not a competition, and no one is going to "win" or "lose."

Basically, I'm hearing some people say that systemic racism is real, to varying degrees. Others say there is no such thing as systemic racism, only systemic corruption.

As far as what systemic racism is, "systemic racism" is an adjective plus a noun, and as such carries a specific meaning. Getting right down to that literal meaning, here's a list of quick definitions:

System - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network
Systemic - relating to a system
Racism - [my paraphrase] having a negative view or taking negative actions against a person or group because of their race
Bigotry - intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
Supremacy - the belief of being superior to all others
Prejudice - preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience


Some words have changed meaning over time (like "gay") but not these, so let's not try to redefine words. (Sorry, Orbo, I'm 100% on board with celebrating our differences, but "racism" is not a good thing.)

So IMO, systemic racism is therefore racism that is built into a system. It's not about individual acts--that's just straight up racism. It's about a system that supports and perpetuates racism.

Also, it is important to clarify that systems do not equal individuals. Take corporations, for instance. If you work in a corporation (a system), then you are aware that there are nuances and unspoken rules and even created rules where if one wants advancement, they have to follow those rules. Even if the corporation as a whole is considered bad (for whatever reason), any given person in that corporation is most likely a decent person just trying to get by!

Historically, there has been systemic racism. Consider the Native Americans and the laws (hence, system) and actions (by the government, again system) that were directed at them, as a race, and ultimately led to genocide.

Another example is Jim Crow laws, which were often enacted by state and local governments (again, system) that specifically targeted black people as a race. (Keep this in historical context, regardless of what people think or do now, "black" as a race was exactly the intent and view of people when these laws were placed.)

Of course, these are only a couple of examples in American history. There are many other examples of systemic racism from history across the globe. So systemic racism has existed, and to know what it really is, we have only to look to history.

Does it still exist? Has it changed? Has it morphed into something that is no longer racism?

[Mike]

I've really gone down the rabbit hole these last couple days, and dug into things like critical theory, which is crucial to understand when discussing something like systemic racism, imo, because the genesis of this type of language reveals the true intent behind it and provides the proper context from which to properly judge it all. But critical theory is such a sprawling, layered topic that it would actually require a thread of it's own. Maybe I'll start that thread.

But for now...
I can work with the definitions provided by Sarah. We have to start somewhere, and that seems a reasonable place to start.

The implication of systemic racism, to me, is infection. Top to bottom infection. That's what that phrase suggests to me...that all our systems and institutions have this racism and bigotry and bias kind of baked right into them, and to undo it all we must deconstruct (deconstructionism) and criticize (critical theory) all it's shadowy elements in order to identify all the problematic bits so we can then extract and remedy it all with heavy doses of inclusivity and diversity and equity.

That's a pretty crude, abridged version of things, of course. But that's the narrative I keep hearing in the media and in my research.

My first question would be: which systems and institutions are racist?

And my second question would be: exactly how are they racist?

The Native Americans were treated abominably by the European settlers. It's a shameful, inexcusable, and evil atrocity. The exact same could be said about the early African Americans that were forced into slavery. Those are obvious historical examples. But which systems currently are biased towards whites and discriminate towards blacks?

If I'm wrong about this systemic racism thing, I'll own it 150%. I would really like to know if I am wrong, so I can stop being wrong and get on the right side of things. But first I'd need to have those 2 simple questions answered. And until now no one has really answered them.

The other element of systemic racism that is frequently evoked is unconscious bias. People have all kinds of biases, so there is some truth to this. But where I begin to get uncomfortable is when all these biases get laid at the feet of racism and racism alone. And where I begin to get really uncomfortable is when I hear about things like mandatory bias training, which to me sounds a lot more like political reeducation. Attempting to chase ghosts in people's minds and replace them with notions of group guilt is a very very dangerous game.

So, just so everyone knows where I'm coming from: I'm all for equal opportunity for all creeds and colors; I'm all for compassion and love; I'm all for making the world a better place for everyone. I'm on the side of peace and understanding. I'm on the side of free speech and free expression. And I want to offer as much of my attention as I can to anyone with a legitimate grievance. But I need to know exactly what those grievances are first. I need to know which systems are racist and why. And even if we assume the worst about everyone's biases, exactly what in the hell can we do about that short of political brainwashing?

[Justjane]

Well Jayke, you’re quite compelling at pointing a distorted finger of guilt at everyone with whom you disagree, but the big blue ribbon you give your own contribution, is nothing but a supposed debunking with an opinion piece by Thomas Sowell.

How about giving us a little bit more than a copy/paste of what you’re demanding? :thumbsup:

“Pointing a distorted finger of guilt”

You can try and gaslight as much as you like Gracy, but you wont be able to find an exact qoute from me where I’ve ‘pointed a distorted finger of guilt‘ at anyone. I only ever point to the objective facts and evidence.

The whole point of my posts is that the definition of ‘systemic racism’ is defunk, because as Bill and Ernie both pointed out above, the whole system is corrupt, blaming white people for that systemic corruption is where the distorted finger of guilt gets pointed in the wrong direction. Trying to scapegoat one race of people for the problems of an entire system is a form of racism.

That’s the joke of the patriarchy Jayke, it always has been, the systems that are developed often don’t end up supporting the very people they were intended to. As you’ve identified, success culture is now dominated by the Chinese and Japanese since their commitment to education far exceeds our own. The same thing happened when the education system was established for boys, girls ended up thriving in the structured environment and boys resisted.

As to your previous questions regarding a definition of systemic racism, I did provide one earlier, as did Ernie, but I guess everyone skipped that. Systemic racism is when one culture establishes the rules, laws, mores, values and so on of a society that support their culture leading to their advancement, success and well being at the expense of others. This often leads to the denigration and eradication of other cultures which may exist in that society.

[edina]

If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

So on this train of thought, talking about white privilege you're a white supremacist. Yeah anyone who uses that broad brush stroke of 'white priviledge' in my opinion is a rascist.

Oh and using the term Uncle Tom in relation to Candace Owens is racist as well, who do you think you are to tell her how she thinks autumn.

Having been quite confused about how this could be misconstrued as being racist (Uncle Toms) when it is a term used to deride sell outs within the black community, I looked up the term and found I had the modern definition right. I can only assume it is considered an insult because it may be too broadly applied....like if a black person works for a white person, in any capacity. I think it is completely appropriate to describe Candace Owens this way but in the interest of protecting racially sensitive members, like yourself, I will use the term, "sell-out" in the future.

I grew up in a mixed neighborhood.

At my school we were about 1/3 black, 1/3 white and 1/3 hispanic.

At some points, as a white I was actually in the minority. Sometimes, I was the only white person on the bus.

I'm familiar with black culture, and the terms, Uncle Tom, coon, house boy, ect... These slurs are used within the black community to try to keep black people in their place. Almost every black person who has lifted themselves from poverty and off the street, to attend university, own a business, buy a home, try to leave a gang (which is a very dangerous thing to try to do in some gangs) gets called these names.

It's not just a racial thing, it also a class issue.

It happened to me, when I left home and joined the Air Force at 17 years old. When I came back home for a visit, people I knew my whole life, people who were like family to me, ostracized me, accusing me of trying to be a richy. My crime, I was wearing business casual clothes.

Van Jones (https://thegrio.com/2019/11/27/heres-how-van-jones-feels-about-being-called-a-sellout-over-his-criminal-justice-politicking/) has been called an uncle tom. Right now, there are about a dozen strong intelligent people running for political office and they are all accused of being uncle toms and coons, in the comments below their social media accounts.

During the recent protests, black police officers are often singled out and verbally abused because they are black, often using these racial slurs.

When talking about systemic racism, there's this aspect of it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. I call it the crab effect.

It comes from the story of how crabs in a cage will kill a crab that has figured out how to escape the cage to freedom, often times ripping it apart before it can climb out of the hole at the top of a crab cage. There's some neurological aspects behind this behavior, it happens all across the animal kingdom, and it happens in humans, too.

You're obviously unfamiliar with the term, uncle tom, and how it is used on the street. I'm curious as to why you to chose to use it to begin with?

[AutumnW]

Systemic racism doesn't present in manual form. If you want to be an RCMP officer up North, you aren't required to pass a test in how to beat up Innuit people. However, it happens and apparently pretty frequently, from my own personal experience. The systemic part is this...when one officer starts to beat up someone who is already cuffed or peaceful and other officers don't intervene, or don't report. And that is due to the nature of comraderie and an unwritten code that is, btw, supported by higher ups.

If death occurs, the incident is investigated by the RCMP, and charges are not laid, the officer gets a paid time off. (See vacation) That is systemic oppression

[Delight]

First of all, if you are angry, take a deep breath and analyze why. We are here for discussion. This is not a competition, and no one is going to "win" or "lose."

Basically, I'm hearing some people say that systemic racism is real, to varying degrees. Others say there is no such thing as systemic racism, only systemic corruption.

As far as what systemic racism is, "systemic racism" is an adjective plus a noun, and as such carries a specific meaning. Getting right down to that literal meaning, here's a list of quick definitions:

System - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network
Systemic - relating to a system
Racism - [my paraphrase] having a negative view or taking negative actions against a person or group because of their race
Bigotry - intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
Supremacy - the belief of being superior to all others
Prejudice - preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience


Some words have changed meaning over time (like "gay") but not these, so let's not try to redefine words. (Sorry, Orbo, I'm 100% on board with celebrating our differences, but "racism" is not a good thing.)

So IMO, systemic racism is therefore racism that is built into a system. It's not about individual acts--that's just straight up racism. It's about a system that supports and perpetuates racism.

Also, it is important to clarify that systems do not equal individuals. Take corporations, for instance. If you work in a corporation (a system), then you are aware that there are nuances and unspoken rules and even created rules where if one wants advancement, they have to follow those rules. Even if the corporation as a whole is considered bad (for whatever reason), any given person in that corporation is most likely a decent person just trying to get by!

Historically, there has been systemic racism. Consider the Native Americans and the laws (hence, system) and actions (by the government, again system) that were directed at them, as a race, and ultimately led to genocide.

Another example is Jim Crow laws, which were often enacted by state and local governments (again, system) that specifically targeted black people as a race. (Keep this in historical context, regardless of what people think or do now, "black" as a race was exactly the intent and view of people when these laws were placed.)

Of course, these are only a couple of examples in American history. There are many other examples of systemic racism from history across the globe. So systemic racism has existed, and to know what it really is, we have only to look to history.

Does it still exist? Has it changed? Has it morphed into something that is no longer racism?

I appreciate this post as it does have some excellently objective ways to ground discussion.

I absolutely see systemic stratification of power (hence access to resurces real like money and intangible like values of learning and skill development). The ability to build genertional wealth is only temporary and people have their ongong "great depressions" where they slide down in power.

The hierarchy of power is IMO the same feudal system we always have had as the Patriarchy. In layers of power, we are ruled from the "TOP" (who IS that is the rabbit hole many have explored). We accept being ruled by "something" with greater authority. This is an important point. Belief in the feudal system being real and maybe necessary.

The widest spectrum of everyone is all the bottom of the pyramid. Power shifts little on the bottom unless a major upheaval happens. Race sex and class in OLDE England was mightily disturbed by WWI. Used to be there that only those BORN into the gentle folk ruled the rest.

In the USA we said NO NOBILITY but created it anyway (white men). Believing that some people are intrinsically more valuable by way of their sex (gender), their race (blood), their religion, their "whatever" is inculcated by programming. This is the system of the Patriarchy IMO underneath all the individual cases. The ones at the BOTTOM are most susceptible to self hate which leads to harm self and others. IMO FRANKLY we are all at the bottom or threatened by the fall back to the bottom which is exactly what is intended.

How do we exit? First we have to examine our subconscious programming. This world is what we created by thought and we think FOR the Patriarchy in so so many ways. I at this point am ready to EXIT. It is a very surprising experience to accept that we ourselves expect to have certain experiences and then they HAPPEN. We believe it ourselves.We are like the fish who cannot see the water they swim in. Our very self "SYSTEM" is responsible for the belief structure that holds up the pyramid.

We have been lucky at the end of the 20th century to have had a few years of a "middle class" where for a few minutes, women and nonwhite men were able to "climb the ladder" to established power positions. But IMO this kind of egality never lasts because it the pattern of the feudal system is about FOREVER "war' to gain territory and power. We war in our minds before we war on others.

YES, people are awakening and this may well truly be when we may exit the matrix.

[AutumnW]

When talking about systemic racism, there's this aspect of it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. I call it the crab effect.

It comes from the story of how crabs in a cage will kill a crab that has figured out how to escape the cage to freedom, often times ripping it apart before it can climb out of the hole at the top of a crab cage. There's some neurological aspects behind this behavior, it happens all across the animal kingdom, and it happens in humans, too.

You're obviously unfamiliar with the term, uncle tom, and how it is uVan Jones has been called an uncle tom. Right now, there are about a dozen strong intelligent people running for political office and they are all accused of being uncle toms and coons, in the comments below their social media accounts.

During the recent protests, black police officers are often singled out and verbally abused because they are black, often using these racial slurs.
sed on the street. I'm curious as to why you to chose to use it to begin with? --Edina

I noted that it is preferable to use the term, "sellout" for people like Candace Owens, who regularly misrepresents her own people on national tv. Why did I use the term Uncle Tom, originally? I didn't understand at the time that it could be used to insult those who are compassionate individuals doing the best for their community under the rubric of a white dominated society. I already explained this.

[edina]

I noted that it is preferable to use the term, "sellout" for people like Candace Owens, who regularly misrepresents her own people on national tv. Why did I use the term Uncle Tom, originally? I didn't understand at the time that it could be used to insult those who are compassionate individuals doing the best for their community under the rubric of a white dominated society. I already explained this.

It still doesn't explain why you chose the word to begin with. It's a derogatory term and it's intended to be a black-on-black racial slur. Although that wasn't it's original meaning.

Uncle Tom once had a positive meaning. Then white people in the "black-face" vaudeville shows gradually changed the meaning, to the one that now marginalizes black people.

I've listened to an interview where this topic came up with Candace, and heard her explain that because she's actually read the book, Uncle Tom, she doesn't consider it an insult. But, it appears that you intended it to be an insult.

Are you aware that many, many people appreciate Candace and her work? Including many black people. Most people do no consider her a sell out, even if you do?

If she weren't black would you have called her an uncle tom?

And, what do you mean by, "her own people?'

xxxMod Note:xxx
edina, AutumnW has already specifically addressed her use of "Uncle Tom" three times now. At this point, it really seems to be nagging, especially with those rhetorical questions at the end.

No one is required to agree with anyone, particularly of their personal opinion about another person (in this case, Candace Owens). Your post is perfectly fine with what I bolded above. The rest, though, is really unnecessary.

[Gracy]

What was a guy like Martin Luther King basing his opinion on, when proclaiming we should judge a man by the content of his character, not by the color of his skin?

Now that we seem to have all the definitions and philosophies somewhat hashed out, where did that come from? What was he speaking of?

If there's anything to it, has it been resolved?

[edina]

I noted that it is preferable to use the term, "sellout" for people like Candace Owens, who regularly misrepresents her own people on national tv. Why did I use the term Uncle Tom, originally? I didn't understand at the time that it could be used to insult those who are compassionate individuals doing the best for their community under the rubric of a white dominated society. I already explained this.

It still doesn't explain why you chose the word to begin with. It's a derogatory term and it's intended to be a black-on-black racial slur. Although that wasn't it's original meaning.

Uncle Tom once had a positive meaning. Then white people in the "black-face" vaudeville shows gradually changed the meaning, to the one that now marginalizes black people.

I've listened to an interview where this topic came up with Candace, and heard her explain that because she's actually read the book, Uncle Tom, she doesn't consider it an insult. But, it appears that you intended it to be an insult.

Are you aware that many, many people appreciate Candace and her work? Including many black people. Most people do no consider her a sell out, even if you do?

If she weren't black would you have called her an uncle tom?

And, what do you mean by, "her own people?'

xxxMod Note:xxx
edina, AutumnW has already specifically addressed her use of "Uncle Tom" three times now. At this point, it really seems to be nagging, especially with those rhetorical questions at the end.

No one is required to agree with anyone, particularly of their personal opinion about another person (in this case, Candace Owens). Your post is perfectly fine with what I bolded above. The rest, though, is really unnecessary.

Thank you for your input MOD :)

I agree, no one is required to agree with one person's opinion of another.

I don't consider my questions rhetorical.
I am actually interested in the answers.
Especially with the clarification question of what Autumn meant by "her own people."

And, I'm also fine letting it drop, too.

[Justjane]

First of all, if you are angry, take a deep breath and analyze why. We are here for discussion. This is not a competition, and no one is going to "win" or "lose."

Basically, I'm hearing some people say that systemic racism is real, to varying degrees. Others say there is no such thing as systemic racism, only systemic corruption.

As far as what systemic racism is, "systemic racism" is an adjective plus a noun, and as such carries a specific meaning. Getting right down to that literal meaning, here's a list of quick definitions:

System - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network
Systemic - relating to a system
Racism - [my paraphrase] having a negative view or taking negative actions against a person or group because of their race
Bigotry - intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
Supremacy - the belief of being superior to all others
Prejudice - preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience


Some words have changed meaning over time (like "gay") but not these, so let's not try to redefine words. (Sorry, Orbo, I'm 100% on board with celebrating our differences, but "racism" is not a good thing.)

So IMO, systemic racism is therefore racism that is built into a system. It's not about individual acts--that's just straight up racism. It's about a system that supports and perpetuates racism.

Also, it is important to clarify that systems do not equal individuals. Take corporations, for instance. If you work in a corporation (a system), then you are aware that there are nuances and unspoken rules and even created rules where if one wants advancement, they have to follow those rules. Even if the corporation as a whole is considered bad (for whatever reason), any given person in that corporation is most likely a decent person just trying to get by!

Historically, there has been systemic racism. Consider the Native Americans and the laws (hence, system) and actions (by the government, again system) that were directed at them, as a race, and ultimately led to genocide.

Another example is Jim Crow laws, which were often enacted by state and local governments (again, system) that specifically targeted black people as a race. (Keep this in historical context, regardless of what people think or do now, "black" as a race was exactly the intent and view of people when these laws were placed.)

Of course, these are only a couple of examples in American history. There are many other examples of systemic racism from history across the globe. So systemic racism has existed, and to know what it really is, we have only to look to history.

Does it still exist? Has it changed? Has it morphed into something that is no longer racism?

I appreciate this post as it does have some excellently objective ways to ground discussion.

I absolutely see systemic stratification of power (hence access to resurces real like money and intangible like values of learning and skill development). The ability to build genertional wealth is only temporary and people have their ongong "great depressions" where they slide down in power.

The hierarchy of power is IMO the same feudal system we always have had as the Patriarchy. In layers of power, we are ruled from the "TOP" (who IS that is the rabbit hole many have explored). We accept being ruled by "something" with greater authority. This is an important point. Belief in the feudal system being real and maybe necessary.

The widest spectrum of everyone is all the bottom of the pyramid. Power shifts little on the bottom unless a major upheaval happens. Race sex and class in OLDE England was mightily disturbed by WWI. Used to be there that only those BORN into the gentle folk ruled the rest.

In the USA we said NO NOBILITY but created it anyway (white men). Believing that some people are intrinsically more valuable by way of their sex (gender), their race (blood), their religion, their "whatever" is inculcated by programming. This is the system of the Patriarchy IMO underneath all the individual cases. The ones at the BOTTOM are most susceptible to self hate which leads to harm self and others. IMO FRANKLY we are all at the bottom or threatened by the fall back to the bottom which is exactly what is intended.

How do we exit? First we have to examine our subconscious programming. This world is what we created by thought and we think FOR the Patriarchy in so so many ways. I at this point am ready to EXIT. It is a very surprising experience to accept that we ourselves expect to have certain experiences and then they HAPPEN. We believe it ourselves.We are like the fish who cannot see the water they swim in. Our very self "SYSTEM" is responsible for the belief structure that holds up the pyramid.

We have been lucky at the end of the 20th century to have had a few years of a "middle class" where for a few minutes, women and nonwhite men were able to "climb the ladder" to established power positions. But IMO this kind of egality never lasts because it the pattern of the feudal system is about FOREVER "war' to gain territory and power. We war in our minds before we war on others.

YES, people are awakening and this may well truly be when we may exit the matrix.

This is just perfect. Thank you 🙏

[AuCo]

Larry Elders recently made a film called Uncle Tom - the term is defined as we are discussing here. He said as of a few days a go it had like 700 reviews and 9.9 stars out of 10. It can be download from Hugh Hewitt web page for like $20 I think. I have not watched it but if someone have, maybe share his/her own Avalon review too.

[Catsquotl]

As systemic is defined as relating to a system, which for this discussion is a system of racism.

Does a cultural overlay work as a system?
Does a society work as a system?

I think idea of systemic racism is being over analysed with regards to which identifiable systems. Many a "system" isn't as easily made clear. And to some degree systemic racism is such a vague system. It has no clear boundaries, but is to me identifiable as an undercurrent of norms and mores in possibly statistical significant analyses of large portions of a population.

It has been said before that racism is natural. Which to me means that to some degree everyone is biased towards some form of separation and favoritism between ones self/family/tribe/society and "others".

The way we(self/family/tribe/society) talks, regards and interacts with others will to a large degree mimic the commonality in those biases.
I think we could call that a systemic outlook on any subject. In this case racism.

Such an ingrained system of biases is not dismantled by a few years of preferential treatment of the "other"
Or even the positive individual experiences one has when dealing with the other.

I believe that now we stand before the choice as a society or maybe even a humanity to slowly let go of those biased systemic outlook on how to organize and structure society.
The riots, the protests and the solutions are going through a stage of redefinition and hopefully growth, so that what now looks like a dichotomy between black lives and the others will find a new equilibrium.

Hopefully soon to be one where all humans are regarded as ones own family/tribe/society

With Love
Eelco

[Catsquotl]

I grew up in a mixed neighborhood.

At my school we were about 1/3 black, 1/3 white and 1/3 hispanic.

At some points, as a white I was actually in the minority. Sometimes, I was the only white person on the bus.


As some may know I am fathering 6 young peeps.
A few of them have an exceptional IQ.

2 of my peeps are still in elementary school.
One with an exceptional IQ and one less so.

The smart one has been given the opportunity to study at a different school for "gifted" kids.
The youngest didn't

So when the were at ordinary elementary school the population is predominantly mixed. I'd go as far as to say white kids are a minority there.
When my "gifted" kid changed schools every kid there is white.

Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
Or is there some kind of preferential privilege going on?

Could that be an example of systemic racism?

[Gracy]

So when the were at ordinary elementary school the population is predominantly mixed. I'd go as far as to say white kids are a minority there.
When my "gifted" kid changed schools every kid there is white.

Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
Or is there some kind of preferential privilege going on?

That's an interesting observation and question Catsquotl.

I reckon you could also turn that around, and wonder if because blacks are 13% of the US population, yet 34% the prison population, that they are naturally that much more predisposed to crime as a race?

Or is there something else going on?

[Bill Ryan]

Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
All kinds of things could be happening, but it's important to recognize that "IQ" is really still a very crude concept, and it's actually pretty hard to quantify accurately. (I've encountered a lot of people with high measured IQs who are very dumb, unaware and limited. Many so-called "geniuses" are just good at solving puzzles, and little else.)

Language and culture have a great deal to do with it, while there are definitely genetic predispositions to high levels of mental ability — of course. Intellectual potential is inherited, just as are other assets like strength, height, and so on. But other very variable factors include parenting (very major), early socialization (major), and early nutrition (quite major).

The parenting thing includes early access to certain kinds of games, problem-solving toys, stimulating books, etc. Giving a toddler an iPad to watch cartoons and keep them quiet hardly cuts it when it comes to intellectual development.

:focus:

[Catsquotl]

Agreed, I just find it odd that a school which is designated for the education of "smart" kids is predominantly white where there pool of choice is very very mixed.

I am sure we can think of other reasons of why this is so.

[Dorjezigzag]

Agreed, I just find it odd that a school which is designated for the education of "smart" kids is predominantly white where there pool of choice is very very mixed.

I am sure we can think of other reasons of why this is so.

I also can't think why there is a majority of 80% of Black people in the professional Basketball league in the USA. Is there some kind of black privilege happening here. I mean there are tall white people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA

[Catsquotl]

Bs. Elementary education is not top sports. I don't know, but I would bet that all little leage sports clubs from mixed areas would have a mixed junior leage

[Ernie Nemeth]

I also can't think why there is a majority of 80% of Black people in the professional Basketball league in the USA. Is there some kind of black privilege happening here. I mean there are tall white people.


white men can't jump...

[Dorjezigzag]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/51/9e/34/519e34b31999776b87dc5939bead9e89.jpg

The problem I had with this thread and those curated by Avolonians with similar opinions is that it almost felt like a trap. It sets up an opinion in regards to race of which there are many counter arguments, backed up with solid evidence, but if you used those arguments you are deemed a racist.

This is why I went on a counter offensive, just to show how any expressed generalities about race could be deemed as racist, but sometimes in the interest of knowledge we need to inhabit these uncomfortable territories. Statistical evidence is very useful is this pursuit and needs to be analysed but with a appreciation that it is a generalisation, a broad brushstroke. Ultimately we are all individuals and those from all races will be outliers and exceptions, often bringing a unique perspective to their chosen field which is why I believe diversity in all fields should be encouraged.

Race has become a taboo subject, while subjects like sex have become increasingly openly discussed, almost a reversal on the past few hundred years. In many ways this is understandable, race philosophy was behind many abuses of the colonial period and of course was one of the pillars of the Nazi world view.

Although not all discussions on race generalities has become taboo. Almost like a pole shift it is now open season on ‘white’ culture with various generalities aggressively openly expressed within institutions such as the education system and now increasingly the media. This is increasingly leading to attacks on white people and symbols of ‘ white history and culture

Marxist groups such as BLM have expressed a lot of racist generalities such as white privilege and white frailty which many academics have then countered and rightly so presenting other reasons for the general observed ‘privilege’. These counter arguments often backed with hard statistical fact have been increasingly deemed as forbidden.

This is one of the main reasons that characters such as Stefan Molyneux are being banned of the media platforms that are the institutions and backbone of our culture. They present inconvenient truths that quite frankly wouldn’t have needed to be expressed if culture wasn’t under its current onslaught against cultures founded by those with white pigmentation.

[Agape]

Many( if not most) of winners of prestigious competitions in high tech in the US, science competitions, the spelling Bee, company CEOs etc. are Indians,
that is children of first or second generation immigrants.

When I visited San Jose that is tech hub, think Apple, NASA etc. and went around the town about 80% of population I’ve encountered were either Indian or Chinese by ethnicity. Perhaps 10% of Africans and 10%(or less) of Caucasians.
Sorry if I mixed Indo-Iranians to the first largest category.

About Indian population whom I’m mostly familiar with, I can say that much: if the same kids grew up half malnourished and without proper healthcare and education as they would just a generation or two back, they would never be able to succeed and prove their IQs.

I suppose it’s the same way for many people in Africa quite yet. If your momma is ill, struggling to fetch water and find food for you everyday,
you can’t win. Either you are obliged to help your family and work for them or run away but then you are risking a lot, no matter how smart you really are.

🙏

[Tam]

Ooof. Reading this thread, there is so much I want to say, and I am truly at a loss for words as to how to express it. Some of the posts here make me want to tear my hair out. Others, warm my heart. All of you, I know are good people, and I would break bread with even the ones who made me tear out a few hairs.

I will say this much. Systemic racism is very real, it's not against whites, though whites are very much complicit in it. It is closely tied to white privilege, which is also very real, and not against white people, though whites are very much complicit in that as well. Breaking down exactly how, and why, would take a literal book. In fact, there are many on the subject. But I will try to distill it, as simply as possible, so that those who are still in denial about this reality, can understand why, without it being an attack or fallacious argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIoC5ROaHk

A more thoughtful, fleshed out response will come soon. I just need to organize the thoughts running through my head.

In the meantime, I'm leaving this here. I think it's a very interesting video, with a lot of food for thought. Notice how each one of them, agrees on one thing: the oppression that they have all had to endure, at varying degrees, at some point or another, for no other reason than being black.

[Mike]

Hey Tam, I've flipped thru a few of those books. I find them all to be very murky. And then they just continually double and triple and quadruple down on the murkiness, and it's suggested that if you find yourself questioning the logic of the murkiness, you're indulging your privilege.

Even logic itself is called into question as being a manipulative tool of the white patriarchy, or at least it is by Robin DiAngelo. By disputing the value of logic, someone like that has free reign to make as little sense as possible while accusing the inevitably confused and annoyed readers that their confusion and irritability are merely symptoms of their privilege. The whole religion of social justice is filled with these double binds and Kafka traps. That's my issue with it all.

You're an excellent writer. If the arguments for white privilege and systemic racism were sound and logical, you wouldn't have to write a book about any of it. A few sentences would do. It would all be very simple.

[Universoul]

Hey Tam, I've flipped thru a few of those books. I find them all to be very murky. And then they just continually double and triple and quadruple down on the murkiness, and it's suggested that if you find yourself questioning the logic of the murkiness, you're indulging your privilege.

Even logic itself is called into question as being a manipulative tool of the white patriarchy, or at least it is by Robin DiAngelo. By disputing the value of logic, someone like that has free reign to make as little sense as possible while accusing the inevitably confused and annoyed readers that their confusion and irritability are merely symptoms of their privilege. The whole religion of social justice is filled with these double binds and Kafka traps. That's my issue with it all.

You're an excellent writer. If the arguments for white privilege and systemic racism were sound and logical, you wouldn't have to write a book about any of it. A few sentences would do. It would all be very simple.

This is what I find alarming about "social justice" culture.

Seeking justice is great, striving to improve society is great where there is corruption. "Social justice" and "woke" culture is an ideology though. It is to justice what religion is to spirituality. Many tenets and accusations by "woke" culture are accepted without criticism, like the idea of systemic racism. If you criticize them you prove how wrong you are according to the doctrine of the ideology.

It is religious and cultish, and perhaps filling humanity's need to be tribal minded.

I don't worry about "woke" culture or Marxism though. The silent majority is already getting sick of it. I'm concerned about the snap back effect we're going to see against it. Every absurd presumption and accusation just stocks the barrels of the ultra theocratic and militantly conservative "right". Not the rednecks or neo nazis on the "alt right". The secret societies/institutions running the corrupt world, which are full of bigotry and eugenics. Which shouldn't require explaining on PA - although look up Icke, Maxwell, Tsarion and others. Study what Rudolf Steiner had to say about the luciferic spirit and its leaning toward fanatical belief (group hysteria, tribalism) yet also rigid theocracy (like caste systems). Those controlling the corrupt system might practice satanism yet see themselves as the shining ones whose right it is to rule the herd of humanity. The arrogance of "lucifer".

It is my current conclusion that "woke" culture is a tool being used by those who want to return the world to a strict totalitarian theocratic state. If the world is made crazy and chaotic enough, many people will flock to that "order". For the dark father to put everyone in line.

The dark mother is being used to instill chaos from within via emotional based thinking/hysteria/rejection of positive masculine qualities like logic and objective thought. The dark mother gets people to attack themselves. The dark father is about attacking others (the war on "terror").

This will go on until the controllers present their stern corrections which people will accept because it will be seen as bringing order to the mindless chaos. The anarchy of antifa and BLM serves what they purport to be fighting against, something much more controlling and restrictive than what they think they're fighting.

It's not about sides, it's about polarity, and the negative has many sides.

[Jayke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIoC5ROaHk
In the meantime, I'm leaving this here. I think it's a very interesting video, with a lot of food for thought. Notice how each one of them, agrees on one thing: the oppression that they have all had to endure, at varying degrees, at some point or another, for no other reason than being black.

I like the guy at 9 minutes who says “I’ve never seen racism in this country until I became a conservative”. The video is more a conversation around character dynamics, and the racism they’ve endured ‘from other black people’ as well as ‘white liberals on the left’ for simply holding different political views.

The next guy admits his own opportunity for grabbing some of the systemic racism for himself, by voting for Obama simply because Obama had black skin.

16 minutes in, the black guy who pulled himself out of poverty by working hard, joining the military, putting effort and energy into ‘the system’ to gain privileges from ‘the system’ and admitting there’s no reason anyone else on the block couldn’t do the same thing.

18 minutes, the black ‘white collar criminal’ who came from the hood, turned her life around after prison and got her family off food stamps by building her own financial consulting company, she’s certainly enjoying some systemic privileges.

I’ll watch the rest later, but the first 20 minutes just help to prove the point I made earlier. The ‘system’ doesn’t care about skin colour, it only cares about people who put their time and energy into perpetuating the system. Those who play the game get rewarded, while those that don’t have to fight for scraps.

The system wasn’t just built by white people. The system has been built over thousands of years as a globalised structure that’s always had many different races and cultures feeding into and competing over how that system is shaped. Most people seem to be confusing ‘white privilege’ and ‘systemic racism’ with ‘cultural inertia‘.

White Europeans have just had an extra 1500 years to build institutions within the ‘system’ than Afro-Americans have. There’s bound to be prejudices that favour whites. Just as there would be prejudices against any white person who moved to a predominantly Muslim, African, Chinese or Japanese culture.

I’ll admit cultural inertia is very real. But to blame specifically ‘white people’ when any race would behave in exactly the same way is very myopic imo.

[Tam]

While you're note wrong at all, Jayke, that the "system" is an enemy to us all, rather than simply black people, that notion is actually a very common misunderstanding/myopic view of systemic racism.


Now, this is partially due to the name. It's somewhat of a misnomer. I think people don't generally "get" what the "systemic" part of "systemic" racism is, because everyone has a slightly different definition/perception of what the "system" is in their head, based off of their background/upbringing/environment. Which is only natural, and human. The life experience of a corn-fed country boy from a rural Ohio 98% white town is going to be vastly different from that of a 16 year-old black girl living in Compton. Neither one is more "real" than the other, yet the life of the other side to either one is far-removed and almost abstract. It's a concept rather than a reality. For better, or for worse, for everyone.


The country boy experiences systemic oppression, absolutely. Anyone who's been paying attention or cares to look can see how rural America has been decimated, forgotten, and is crumbling from the inside out.


The same way those in the projects have been swept under the rug of modern-day segregation, raised and coming of age into a crime-ridden, destitute hellhole.


So each of them experiences systemic oppression, but in totally different (yet fundamentally similar/congruent) ways.


So a white person, who may live in a bubble, will not realize that there is an extra layer of oppression that non-whites must deal with America, blacks especially, because they've never had that broach the realm of lived experience.


Now, that's not a personal attack, or anti-white. We all have and live in many bubbles. Every last one of us. Having a bubble is not you're fault. Refusing to see past it when it's starting you in the face, and refusing to burst it out of a selfishness, fear, or confusion, is.


So, systemic racism. Systemic racism is very real. Systemic racism is an obstacle that every last black person in America is going to have to deal with, throughout their lives. Some a lot more so than others, depending on class/socioeconomic status.


However, it is not a be-all, end-all. While America still has eons to go in its racial relations, there has still been considerable progress in civil rights/social justice (yes, I know that's a trigger word), and securing a future is no longer some impossible, fictional pipe dream for black people in America.


However, the hard reality is, that it is much, much harder, for the AVERAGE black person in America to "make it", than it is for the average white person. Average not meaning your everyday, 5'10", 180 lb Joe. Not that kind of average.


The kind of average, is the black person, as a figure. A number. A cog in the wheel. Compared to his white, or East Asian, or even Hispanic brothers.


That isn't to say that whites, East Asians, or Hispanics aren't suffering as well. That they can't be poor, or desperately underprivileged. That they aren't also cogs in the machine, expendable.
Because they are.


Just that, per capita, the rate of poverty in these groups is significantly lower than in black Americans. Also, their incarceration rate. And graduation rate. And literacy rate. And voting rate.


Now, the big question, is why. And when you ask yourself, and you start to really dig, you begin to understand, the vast complexity, nuance, and multifaceted vectors that make this a reality.


And that, is systemic racism.


Should we feel white guilt? Absolutely not. Should the average American be held accountable? No. But we are complicit. Every last one of us.


Ultimately, yes, it's not about race. Or gender. Or religion. Or sexual orientation, or political leanings, etc. Yes, each one of those are straw mans, meant to distract us from the common enemy, the global elite/Cabal/1%/"Illuminati"/MIC/Big-Business/Western Aristocratic bloodlines/whatever.


But, that truth does not negate or erase the experience of nearly half of the 50 million black people living in America today.


And that's all we're trying to say, here. To shed a light on one tiny slice of the giant pie that is human suffering.


In the immortal words of En Vogue, free your mind, and the rest will follow.


So for those that are saying All Lives Matter, or that systemic racism doesn't exist in America because they got beat up by a cop on their way to work, where their boss is black and drives a Tesla, stop making it about you. Stop pointing out the 10,000 other examples of genocide/racism/systemic oppression that are universal. Yes, we know. Yes, we see you. Yes, we feel you.


But if you go to Grandma's funeral, and some other guest there, mid-eulogy, gets up and starts taking about their Great-Uncle that died last year, then they're kind of being an asshole. Yes, it's terrible that Uncle Joe passed, yes, your pain is very real and just as legitimate as the pain in the room is right now, but this is Grandma's funeral.


Oh, and finally, yes, of course systemic racism exists in other countries too, as do systemic sexism, systemic religious persecution, etc.)


This brief, humorous video captures it perfectly, in my opinion:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa00OSeej5A

[Catsquotl]

I just watched the evergreen Weinstein trilogy.
And am getting a better understanding of what the people cautioning against Antifa and #BLM are afraid of.

So I find myself on the fence again. I want to acknowledge that people of color are experiencing an unfair amount of obstacles compared to their white peers. That said as a white man being forced to acknowledge complacency just because of the color of my skin feels ludicrous.

[Delight]

I don't think that people find it easy to imagine the threat to our civilization which is intentional and orchestrated on many fronts. We can argue all day long that there is or is not systemic "ism" and it will be useless to address the issue. The issue is that human lives just do NOT matter to the system. Here is just one example.

RpX38ipKxC8

How do we fight back? I say we stop arguing between "groups" of humans. We identify some basic elements of how to live. We start doing that ourselves.

What ARE those basic elements? I think we could focus there... how do we decide and how do we act?

IMO when we each pass on, we will face ourselves and whom will we see? A real human?

[Mike]

I just watched the evergreen Weinstein trilogy.
And am getting a better understanding of what the people cautioning against Antifa and #BLM are afraid of.

So I find myself on the fence again. I want to acknowledge that people of color are experiencing an unfair amount of obstacles compared to their white peers. That said as a white man being forced to acknowledge complacency just because of the color of my skin feels ludicrous.



I could kiss you!:)

I know we've been sort of butting heads over these issues, but I respect the hell out of you for exploring the other side of this stuff in earnest. I'd pay people to watch those Evergreen videos. I really would. I don't think it's possible to truly understand the scope of current events without seeing those. It's the perfect case study for what's happening now.

For what it's worth, I don't think you have to compromise your heart here. Racism is a very real and dangerous thing, and it's only natural that anyone with a beating heart and sound mind feel compassion and kindness towards those suffering from it.

But the problem, as you see in the vids and in the news these days, is that it's all very bloated and exaggerated; oppression has become a religion, complete with "original sin" and faith based acceptances. And the social justice ideologies being fast-tracked in as a result of that religion are far more dangerous than any racism or police brutality existing today.

So, racism is a very serious problem and a very valid topic. But if we were to prioritize our problems, I would rate systemic postmodernism and systemic Marxism much higher in terms of perniciousness and danger.

[Tam]

I just watched the evergreen Weinstein trilogy.
And am getting a better understanding of what the people cautioning against Antifa and #BLM are afraid of.

So I find myself on the fence again. I want to acknowledge that people of color are experiencing an unfair amount of obstacles compared to their white peers. That said as a white man being forced to acknowledge complacency just because of the color of my skin feels ludicrous.

I totally understand where you're coming from, but I think you're missing the point by taking a bit personally. First of all, no one is forcing you to do anything. The reality is, everyone is complacent to some degree. Everyone living in a developed country, especially Americans, where consumerism is engrained in the culture, can live in luxury at the direct cost of those in third world, developing nations. You think things are so cheap, just because? You think your smart phone was ethically made?

The reality is, your life, in America, is considerably easier for you because of your whiteness. That isn't to say that you can't suffer as greatly as a black person can, it's just that, your skin color will never be used against you, it isn't something you have to be in fear of being misjudged for. It won't cost you jobs, or promotions, or your life. Yes, racism goes in all directions, but you are in far less danger of facing consequences entirely beyond your control due to the color of your skin. Look no further than our own history for proof of that. Since the inception of America, white men have had little to do to get more rights. They could always buy land, vote, go into a wide variety of professions, get an education, etc. Whiteness was never, ever a drawback. In fact, it would often help you. Since 1776.

Meanwhile, there are black people alive today who remember the days of segregation, of interracial marriage being a crime, of not being allowed to vote, of lynchings being common practice.

Go and find droves of white Americans who can say the same. I'll wait.

And that, is simply, it. That is all that systemic racism is trying to point out. That the game is rigged for nearly everyone, yes, but it's extra extra rigged against you if you're black. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

No one is saying white people should all be held accountable and feel sorry for what is happening. Those that do are either feeling a misplaced sense of insecurity (white guilt, which is very toxic and fundamentally racist) or is totally lost in their head.

However, what is being asked, is for the elephant in the room to finally be talked about, for white Americans to understand and acknowledge that things need to change, that their black friends, family, coworkers, and fellow citizens, have been opressed for far too long, and it needs to stop. We as individuals are not responsible, but we are complicit. When is the last time any of you have made a concerted effort to patronize a black-owned business, something which is somewhat of a rarity in most of the US, and few of which last as long? That's a great way to help limit oppression and generational poverty. By investing in local economies, and helping to put food on the table of local people, not assholes like Bezos or Gates. And this isn't solely the responsibility of whites. Asians, Hispanics, too. We all need to help each other.

The same way we need to boycott big business (if we have the luxury to be able to, not so for many of us), buy local and secondhand, recycle, minimize waste, conserve water, reuse things, eat clean, cut out a lot of our meat intake, etc.

The system, in all of its machinations, exists only because we allow it to. Yes, there's a lot of victimization at work, a lot of disempowerment, but at the end of the day, we are responsible not our own choices, and we need to start making good ones, however and whenever we can, to help ourselves and those around us.

Otherwise, this country is going to crash so hard, and so fast, it will be unlike anything we have seen in the last 200 years.

[AutumnW]

I wonder how many members here would agree with the following. I don't. It's just a statement.

"The truth is "hate" to those who hate the truth!
I am a racial realist and idealist. Black, Hispanic, Asian and Jewish Nationalists openly support their racial interests. I am a White Nationalist who supports true diversity and a homeland for all peoples, including mine. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!"

[AutumnW]

I just watched the evergreen Weinstein trilogy.
And am getting a better understanding of what the people cautioning against Antifa and #BLM are afraid of.

So I find myself on the fence again. I want to acknowledge that people of color are experiencing an unfair amount of obstacles compared to their white peers. That said as a white man being forced to acknowledge complacency just because of the color of my skin feels ludicrous.



I could kiss you!:)

I know we've been sort of butting heads over these issues, but I respect the hell out of you for exploring the other side of this stuff in earnest. I'd pay people to watch those Evergreen videos. I really would. I don't think it's possible to truly understand the scope of current events without seeing those. It's the perfect case study for what's happening now.

For what it's worth, I don't think you have to compromise your heart here. Racism is a very real and dangerous thing, and it's only natural that anyone with a beating heart and sound mind feel compassion and kindness towards those suffering from it.

But the problem, as you see in the vids and in the news these days, is that it's all very bloated and exaggerated; oppression has become a religion, complete with "original sin" and faith based acceptances. And the social justice ideologies being fast-tracked in as a result of that religion are far more dangerous than any racism or police brutality existing today.

So, racism is a very serious problem and a very valid topic. But if we were to prioritize our problems, I would rate systemic postmodernism and systemic Marxism much higher in terms of perniciousness and danger.

"I could kiss you!" And LGBTQ will fully support you!

You are part of the backlash, Mike. The extremes of the left are there to keep your sympathy and compassion in check and limit your support for protest about serious issues like policing and judicial reform.

The U.S. is already a police state for visible minorities, particularly blacks. A few of us have posted numerous articles and videos about that, but I don't think YOU are watching those.

Canada's major newspapers just started reporting when native Canadians went missing, presumed murdered....in the last five years. How does the mainstream media handle the same issues where young black women are involved?

You can live in a university town like Chicago, where looney left academia, provide a convenient smokescreen for matters that go right to the murder of George Floyd.

Fascist forces are highly adept at manipulation. They kept the red scare alive in the U.S. for decades. Communism was never a threat in the U.S, after the Great Depression.

Meanwhile they slowly created two Americas and convinced the middle and upper classes that their success was all due to their uberman characteristics. All white people, as Tam described so eloquently, are born on first base. by virtue of the fact they don't have to endure police harrassment and a plea bargaining system and the lifetime fallout from that "system." It is next to impossible to rise above that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWxX5kSg-c

Please watch this video!!


And this TED TALK--Why Innocent People Plead Guilty!
_TiXLqW0TXU

[AutumnW]

"It is my current conclusion that "woke" culture is a tool being used by those who want to return the world to a strict totalitarian theocratic state. If the world is made crazy and chaotic enough, many people will flock to that "order". For the dark father to put everyone in line." --- Universoul.

Thanks so much for this, Universoul. Want to highlight it, as it is extremely important!

[AutumnW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDSvbm1NX_o

[Delight]

"It is my current conclusion that "woke" culture is a tool being used by those who want to return the world to a strict totalitarian theocratic state. If the world is made crazy and chaotic enough, many people will flock to that "order". For the dark father to put everyone in line." --- Delight.

Thanks so much for this, Delight. Want to highlight it, as it is extremely important!

No, not my words. The world IS crazy and chaotic and I am not sure at all "why"? Every day it just seems to become more incomprehensible.

[AutumnW]

Fixed it. Thanks Delight! And thank you Universoul!

[Tam]

I wonder how many members here would agree with the following. I don't. It's just a statement.

"The truth is "hate" to those who hate the truth!
I am a racial realist and idealist. Black, Hispanic, Asian and Jewish Nationalists openly support their racial interests. I am a White Nationalist who supports true diversity and a homeland for all peoples, including mine. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!"

I don't think anyone here would actively agree with such a statement. And if they do, perhaps they aren't on the right forum.

[AutumnW]

I wonder how many members here would agree with the following. I don't. It's just a statement.

"The truth is "hate" to those who hate the truth!
I am a racial realist and idealist. Black, Hispanic, Asian and Jewish Nationalists openly support their racial interests. I am a White Nationalist who supports true diversity and a homeland for all peoples, including mine. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!"

I don't think anyone here would actively agree with such a statement. And if they do, perhaps they aren't on the right forum.

I can think of at least one member who would support this and several more who probably support a soft version of it. Would they admit to it, as it is spelled out here? Not likely.

[Bill Ryan]

We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

[Mike]

I wonder how many members here would agree with the following. I don't. It's just a statement.

"The truth is "hate" to those who hate the truth!
I am a racial realist and idealist. Black, Hispanic, Asian and Jewish Nationalists openly support their racial interests. I am a White Nationalist who supports true diversity and a homeland for all peoples, including mine. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!"

I don't think anyone here would actively agree with such a statement. And if they do, perhaps they aren't on the right forum.

I can think of at least one member who would support this and several more who probably support a soft version of it. Would they admit to it, as it is spelled out here? Not likely.



I absolutely do support some version of that. And in the future, when you're compiling your hypothetical witchhunt lists, just feel free to list my name.

"The truth is hate to those who hate the truth." It's true. What's not true about that? "Safe spaces" are a response to people being unable to even listen to an ideological idea that differs from their own. They call those opposing ideological ideas "hate speech" now, and you can lose your job or your reputation for falling into that trap. In certain situations you can even go to jail.

I think I am a racial realist. I'm not without emotion but I do approach the topic soberly so as to not let my feelings cloud reality. What's wrong with that?

Racial idealist? Not sure what that means.

Celebrating white skin seems as arbitrary and silly as celebrating brown hair. I am not a white nationalist, but I do support people celebrating their cultural traditions. Most of the mainly white, European countries have national holidays designed to celebrate this stuff. I think that's great. A few of those holidays translate over here; I'm thinking of things like St Patrick's Day.

If you ask a white American what their ancestral background is, they'll likely tell you they're part this and part that and part German and part English and so on and so forth. If you ask a black American - at least one that has several generations of history in the states - what their ancestral background is, they'll almost always just say "African". At least that's been my experience. Whites tend to identify with their ancestral countries, whereas blacks tend to identify with, well..being black.

So I don't even know what "white culture" is necessarily, which I assume would be a prerequisite to being a white nationalist.

I do support organic diversity for all cultures here, but not the forced, tyrannical kind masquerading as the real thing.

If systemic racism was merely a nod to whites having some generational advantages (or starting on first base, as Tam puts it), I might just agree and not think much of it. But the phrase "systemic racism" has now become part of a hateful lexicon that, in its totality, is very much a racist, anti-white, Marxist ideology that pretends to be seeking fairness but is really seeking power. And it's doing it in a very dangerous way. So, white minority? No. Embattled? Yeah!

[Tam]

We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

My bad, I should have made it clearer. Every last American is complicit in allowing the gears of the machine to perpetuate systemic racism.

You, a UK national living in Ecuador, have no complicity whatsoever.

If you'd like me to explain why Americans are complicit, I'd be happy to lay it out.

[Constance]

But the phrase "systemic racism" has now become part of a hateful lexicon that, in its totality, is very much a racist, anti-white, Marxist ideology that pretends to be seeking fairness but is really seeking power. And it's doing it in a very dangerous way. So, white minority? No. Embattled? Yeah!

For those who haven't yet seen these threads...

Former Social Justice Warrior Explains why Social Justice is all about power and control.
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111381-Former-Social-Justice-Warrior-Explains-Why-Social-Justice-Is-All-About-Power-And-Control)
Evergreen madness (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109981-Evergreen-University-Madness)

The genius of the crowd
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111366-The-Genius-Of-The-Crowd)
Menstruators And People of Whiteness, Act now (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111191-Menstruators-And-People-Of-Whiteness-Act-Now-)

Moral reparations and The activist Ethos (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111323-Moral-Reparations-And-The-Activist-Ethos)

Cambridge professor: White lives don't matter; abolish whiteness (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111312-Cambridge-Professor-White-Lives-Don-t-Matter-Abolish-Whiteness)

Tyranny one tiny little step at a time (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111313-Tyranny-One-Tiny-Step-At-A-Time)

And here we go...
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111291-And-Here-We-Go...)
3 options: shame silence or smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111211-3-Options-Shame-Silence-Or-Smear-Campaign)

[AutumnW]

Wasn't actually thinking about you, Mike. Nor was I thinking about safe spaces or the looney left. My hypothetical witch hunt list? Seriously...that's just funny. It's entirely voluntary for someone to agree or disagree with the statement I posted. It could be seen as a self indictment to support it or something to be proud of.

Did you watch the videos I posted? I've watched hours of both Weinsteins and Jordan Peterson. What you seem to be consistently avoiding is commenting on policing and the judicial system. I would really appreciate it if you at least watched some videos about that.

Something else that is important here...when I say Communism isn't a threat, I am talking about the economic system. Authoritarianism IS a huge threat. And when I mention the PC loony madness in academia as being a smokescreeen, I think it's a threat, but a manufactured one.

Theoretically, I figure a lot of the gender studies departments have been funded by the hard right wing to cause just the kind of very legitimate backlash you are immersed in right now.

As far as going to jail because of using the wrong pronouns...you mentioned that this could happen in Canada in a thread awhile back. I can assure you, nobody goes to jail for that up here. Wherever you read that, just dismiss it as part of feeding a backlash to hand fascists more power.

[Mike]

We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

My bad, I should have made it clearer. Every last American is complicit in allowing the gears of the machine to perpetuate systemic racism.

You, a UK national living in Ecuador, have no complicity whatsoever.

If you'd like me to explain why Americans are complicit, I'd be happy to lay it out.


What if Bill moved to the U.S.? Would he be complicit then?:) And if so, when? When he first touched down? 6 months later? 6 years later? How exactly does one earn their complicity card? And is there any way to transcend it?

The woke crowd in England say they're just as systemically racist as the U.S. Was Bill - a white straight male - complicit while he lived in the U.K.? If not, why? If so, at what point was he no longer complicit? When he got on the plane for Ecuador? When he landed in Ecuador? Two years later? How does that work?

If I crossed the border into Canada, would I still be complicit?

*Every* last American is complicit? Does that include babies too? At what age does one inherit the mantle of complicity? Ten? Twelve?

I'm being a little tongue in cheek here:) But I'm also being serious! Since I am one of those complicit Americans, I would very much appreciate it if you laid it all out

[Mike]

Jess, come on. You listed things that are ostensibly lifted from some white nationalist manifesto and then dared a bunch of unnamed but obvious members to fall for the trap. How could I not be on that list?:) Come on man!

You were right to call me out on not watching the videos. Fair enough. I'll watch the one you posted right now.

[AutumnW]

Jess, come on. You listed things that are ostensibly lifted from some white nationalist manifesto and then dared a bunch of unnamed but obvious members to fall for the trap. How could I not be on that list?:) Come on man!

You were right to call me out on not watching the videos. Fair enough. I'll watch the one you posted right now.

Trust me. I know you well enough to understand you aren't a white supremacist...and I wasn't thinking about you when I posted it. Oh, actually, what I thought was, "I hope Mike doesn't think I mean him." :o

[Mike]

Jess, come on. You listed things that are ostensibly lifted from some white nationalist manifesto and then dared a bunch of unnamed but obvious members to fall for the trap. How could I not be on that list?:) Come on man!

You were right to call me out on not watching the videos. Fair enough. I'll watch the one you posted right now.

Trust me. I know you well enough to understand you aren't a white supremacist...and I wasn't thinking about you when I posted it. Oh, actually, what I thought was, "I hope Mike doesn't think I mean him." :o

:bigsmile:

[Catsquotl]

I totally understand where you're coming from, but I think you're missing the point by taking a bit personally. First of all, no one is forcing you to do anything.

I honestly hope so, if the evergreen college is any kind of example though pleading guilty and acknowledge ones inherent racism, take mandatory courses on how to behave in the workplace are things I do worry about.



The reality is, everyone is complacent to some degree. Everyone living in a developed country, especially Americans, where consumerism is ingrained in the culture, can live in luxury at the direct cost of those in third world, developing nations. You think things are so cheap, just because? You think your smart phone was ethically made?

I truly wonder how much of this you think I do not understand.
Why would you say this in order to convince a 47 year old white dutch dude who has been some sort of post punk squatting hippy activist since the late 80's and is now working a full time job (as an assistant nurse) to support a family of 8

That said the first sentence, what you call reality is what this thread is trying to answer correct? Consumerism is not in essence racist in my understanding it's capitalist. And I am very very aware of the inequality that is fed by the capitalist beast.



The reality is, your life, in America, is considerably easier for you because of your whiteness. That isn't to say that you can't suffer as greatly as a black person can, it's just that, your skin color will never be used against you, it isn't something you have to be in fear of being misjudged for. It won't cost you jobs, or promotions, or your life. Yes, racism goes in all directions, but you are in far less danger of facing consequences entirely beyond your control due to the color of your skin. Look no further than our own history for proof of that. Since the inception of America, white men have had little to do to get more rights. They could always buy land, vote, go into a wide variety of professions, get an education, etc. Whiteness was never, ever a drawback. In fact, it would often help you. Since 1776.

I want to believe this, because it feels right. I cannot however find much evidence of this to support that claim. I see many many odd discrepancies pop up though that look like is is so, but could be explained because of several reasons besides racism.
Now first of I am not American, Living in Holland I can say that at least in public and governmental jobs there has been a positive discrimination policy supporting diversity by gender and race, where by equal suitability a white cis gender male would not get the job.

Which in turn have causes right winged political parties to gain much much footing and a larges member base.



No one is saying white people should all be held accountable and feel sorry for what is happening. Those that do are either feeling a misplaced sense of insecurity (white guilt, which is very toxic and fundamentally racist) or is totally lost in their head.


Have you seen the evergreen video's? Because that is exactly what was asked, the way it was phrased does seem toxic and fundamentally racist. And hearing these phrases mimicked by speakers on #BLM rallies even over here in ff-ing nowhereville Holland with 200 plus protesters in support of #BLM has me questioning the validity of some of the claims and got me looking deeper into this stuff.

So far I find it very difficult to find the systemic in sytemic racism.
AM I getting a clearer picture of how subjective reality is being mirrored to an outside reality without questioning the validity of the subjective outlook on life. And do I see the split between left and right grow harder and deeper over fear based assumptions and the decline of free speech and conversation.

With Love
Eelco

¤=[Post Update]=¤




We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

My bad, I should have made it clearer. Every last American is complicit in allowing the gears of the machine to perpetuate systemic racism.

You, a UK national living in Ecuador, have no complicity whatsoever.

If you'd like me to explain why Americans are complicit, I'd be happy to lay it out.

As someone not living in America Yes please.

WIth Love

[Catsquotl]

I just watched the evergreen Weinstein trilogy.
And am getting a better understanding of what the people cautioning against Antifa and #BLM are afraid of.

So I find myself on the fence again. I want to acknowledge that people of color are experiencing an unfair amount of obstacles compared to their white peers. That said as a white man being forced to acknowledge complacency just because of the color of my skin feels ludicrous.



I could kiss you!:)

I know we've been sort of butting heads over these issues, but I respect the hell out of you for exploring the other side of this stuff in earnest. I'd pay people to watch those Evergreen videos. I really would.

Thank you, should I send you my paypall or bank info? :cash: :Party:

[Bill Ryan]

We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

My bad, I should have made it clearer. Every last American is complicit in allowing the gears of the machine to perpetuate systemic racism.

You, a UK national living in Ecuador, have no complicity whatsoever.

If you'd like me to explain why Americans are complicit, I'd be happy to lay it out.I don't believe that for a moment (that all Americans are complicit). I know you mean well (of course! :heart: ), but that's


Straight out of the SJW accusatory witch-hunt playbook. (See this important thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111381-Former-Social-Justice-Warrior-Explains-Why-Social-Justice-Is-All-About-Power-And-Control).)
A projected guilt trip that has no foundation.
An indictment of millions of Americans who aren't complicit in anything at all and never "oppressed" anyone.
A covert instruction for all those people to take a knee in submissive apology for something most of them haven't done.

You can't blame 200 million people (the estimated white population of America) for things that are systemic, i.e. institutional, financial, educational, and/or political.

Each one of those 200 million is a unique individual, with their own upbringing, social background, culture, education, beliefs, values, and wealth and power (or in the vast majority of cases, no wealth or power at all).

The system affects almost everyone. That's what systems do.

And the same applies in other countries. The thread title is Systemic Racism in America. But this has to apply elsewhere as well.

It'd be interesting to hear from our Australian friends here. Is there present-day systemic racism in Australia? I don't know for sure, but there certainly used to be. Was every Australian complicit, even then? Of course not.

Read about what happened to Peter Norman (https://history.com/news/1968-mexico-city-olympics-black-power-protest-backlash), the 1968 200m Olympic silver medalist, whose whole life was wrecked because he supported the immensely brave stand taken by American athletes Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who famously gave their black power salute on the winners' podium.

He wasn't complicit in Australian racism. He was a victim. (That may deserve its own detailed post on the Racism (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100738-Racism) thread, or maybe even a thread of its own in his honor.)

And there's racism in Ecuador, inasmuch as the indigenous people are certainly an underprivileged minority with a whole laundry list of legitimate longterm grievances. They're regarded as a kind of lower caste. (This is the case in many South American countries.) I'm resident here. Am I complicit? Of course not.

There are close parallels in many other countries. India. South Africa. Nigeria. China.

I could go on and on. (But I won't! :) )

No-one can generalize like this.

[happyuk]

Okay, so the title of the thread is probably not the best, but couldn't think of anything better. :sun: I am curious about how people really look at this, so I'd love to hear others' opinions. These questions could easily apply to many countries, but as I live in America, that's what I'm focusing on. If you'd like to chime in with your experiences from another country, of course that's welcome! But please let us know what country you're talking about.

Do you think there is systemic racism in any institutionalized areas of America? (This would extend from the currently-much-discussed police to the medical field to the education system.) This is not about individuals, but group think and actions as well as policies that were originally made to repress and oppress races and other specific groups of people. (And of course, "races" is a misnomer, but for the sake of discussion, let's not get into that.)

Please, don't argue with someone because they may have a different opinion than you. Just share your thoughts. Consider this more of an information gathering session, not a place to discuss or argue about how to fix anything (if anything even needs to be fixed). If you need to define some parameters for your own explanations, please do so! Detail is encouraged. :sun:

No, I do not. I do not think the problem many Americans face is prejudice against skin pigmentation, but big, unaccountable government which can easily be misconstrued as systemic racism.

The way I see are as follows:


The larger the political unit, the smaller the significance of the individual member and the greater the controlling power at the centre.

Any large, centralised governing body which controls the army, the police, the money system and the judiciary, and which presumes to pronounce on matters concerning education, welfare and other essentially local matters, is contriving a full-frontal assault on freedom and should therefore be denounced and its edicts ignored.

Centralised power breeds its own interests and prerogatives which are inevitably in conflict with the citizen, except in the small instances where they may coincide; This is true not only of government but of any body, be it a political party, a church, a university, a charity or a sports or other social organisation.

We must cherish locally controlled newspapers and TV stations as bulwarks of freedom and sources of information, while giving up mainstream media.

We must be our own experts, and stop looking to the media and 'opinion' for information.

Democracy does not mean government OF the people, nor government FOR the people, both are totalitarian concepts; it means government BY the people.

Authority can only stem from the judgements of people in their neighbourhood relationships. When power is wielded by forces beyond the neighbourhood, democracy ceases to function.

Jesus said 'Love thy neighbour'. He did not say 'Love thy fellow citizen of the Roman Empire'; nor did he say 'Love thy supermarket'.

Those who profess to love everybody are really confessing that they are unable to love anybody.

Our culture and civilisation is evil because it is ugly; it is ugly because people no longer create and instead obey edicts of forces they have no control over.

Chain stores, giant supermarkets, branch banks and insurance offices and the like are one of the means by which the wealth of local communities is haemorrhaged.

Power not only corrupts, it creates nothing but contempt in those over whom it is exercised.

[Ernie Nemeth]

We talked a lot about skin color.

There is another type of racism - those with an accent and/or poor command of the official language of a country. This is probably far more prevalent here and world wide than skin color. It is easy to pick out the new-comers from foreign lands and languages and single them out because they are different.

[Jayke]

I wonder how many members here would agree with the following. I don't. It's just a statement.

"The truth is "hate" to those who hate the truth!
I am a realist and idealist. Black, Hispanic, Asian and Jewish Nationalists openly support their racial interests. who supports true diversity and a homeland for all peoples."

I don't think anyone here would actively agree with such a statement. And if they do, perhaps they aren't on the right forum.

Removing the unnecessary identity politics out of the qoute. There was a time when being a realist, idealist and wanting respect and freedom for all races and nations was considered ‘Libertarian’. Just goes to show how far the Overton Window has been pushed by Marxist propoganda when Libertarian values are now conflated with ‘white supremacy’ and ‘neo-nazis’. :no::no:

There’s just no objectivity in any of these accusations anymore. It seems anyone further right than the ‘Antifa Handbook’ gets insinuated to be a modern day Nazi. It’s just not in any way true whatsoever, and more importantly, the public have heard these accusations so often that the apathy levels are going through the roof. It just puts people off the legitimate causes and legitimate problems by polarising people over what should be noble values. I’m more worried about the non-realists, the non-idealists, those who don’t value true diversity, those who don’t value respect and freedom for all races and nations — you know — the Marxist nihilists who act like racist Nazis while accusing everyone else of being a racist Nazi. The irony! :facepalm:

[Universoul]

We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

This says it all and what people are reacting to when accusations are thrown around. Keep in mind this post isn't directed at anyone specifically. It's my two cents on the issue of general accusation.

Putting aside theories about conspiracies or why the herd is being hit with "everyone is racist" at the end of the lockdown or why politicians, corporations, and the media are parroting it. If we wanted to approach the issue of racism and bring awareness to humanity's tribal instincts, using general statements of accusation is the wrong way. To start with guilt is the wrong way. It sets people against the message because something in them says "This general accusation of guilt is wrong".

The issue is not about complicity, it's about complacency and consent. The same happens in the climate change movement. I'm surprised Greta isn't on TV yet telling humanity "You are all guilty because you are carbon based life forms and exhale CO2". The climate change guilt against the human spirit wasn't working. Many more people are going along with the "You're all racist!" narrative which is disturbing.

It's about getting people to consent to false guilt and how horrible they are for being human. It was about this in Nazi Germany, and during the Inquisition, and it was about this when you could stone someone to death for stealing a loaf of bread.

Starting with an implication of "You're wrong", which others can't argue because it makes them guiltier according to the accusation, is not the way to heal. It's like testing to see if witches can float. If they float they get burned, if they sink they're not a witch although drown. Now that is ludicrous hyperbole, yet the negative pattern of accusation is the same. To see wrong in others, and the world with fear and as wrong, is a shadow which has been with the human race throughout history. Why, is an esoteric question which would require it's own debates.

To accuse is starting from a negative place. We can't move forward while moving backward or get positivity from negativity. The great issue I see, and maybe I'm wrong, is how our minds are conditioned to work in a negating, subtracting, reductive way.

We're so defeating of ourselves and each other to work on changing that within ourselves is the great struggle. We're all guilty of being negatively conditioned or maybe it's in our human condition. Yet I'm not saying "You're guilty!". I think humanity is wonderful and has much potential yet also has a self destructive side which is not first harmful socially or environmentally rather psychologically and spiritually to itself. So it's important to ask ourselves what are we feeding into? What energy of the spectrum and struggle are we aligning with and reinforcing?

[AutumnW]

Academia practices systemic racism against white cis gender men. It is a Nazi mentality and its happening under the radar of most people outside of academia. I only know about it because I have been following Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein, and I adore Weinstein, in particular.

The really odd dynamic that is unfolding here is really about the two Americas, as so many have described on this thread. It is like two separate worlds and cultures and it divides, not city by city, or state by state, necessarily. It divides by neighbourhood.

Isn't it weird that you can have academia, a middle class fortress, falling so far to the 'left' that people rightfully wonder if this is what an absurd form of Communism looks like?

Its so obviously upside down and backwards that I theorized that gender studies or third wave feminism may have been pushed as part of a deep state psi-op, to fool people into associating the traditional left wing and democratic socialism with this kind of craziness.

At the same time, in the other America, you have very clear cut abuses in the judicial system, that most middle class people of all skin colour have no familiarity with. But....blacks of all classes still have to be careful if they are on the streets of neighbourhoods where cops DO regard them as the enemy, by the color of their skin.

This needn't be a polarizing issue, because those who have chosen one side or the other aren't wrong. They are just seeing seeing it from where they sit and what they have experienced. And as Tam described, we all live in bubbles, but never before have these bubbles been so fortified with class stratification.

[rgray222]

A court in Philidephia recently accepted an appeal by Bill Cosby based on...you guessed it - systemic racism. If this is allowed to stand I can only imagine that every black person currently in prison in the USA regardless of crime will be filing an appeal.

'Bill Cosby invokes systemic racism in appeal: 'It's about the destruction of ALL Black people'

https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2019/12/10/bill_cosby_36503_s878x664.jpg?bdc22d816257610f73a3b4890b3716e0fa7a7041

PHILADELPHIA — In a nearly empty Philadelphia courtroom in July 2015, a lawyer for Bill Cosby implored a federal judge to keep the comedian’s testimony in an old sexual battery lawsuit under wraps. It was sensitive. Embarrassing. Private.

U.S. District Judge Eduardo Robreno had another word for it.

The conduct Cosby detailed in his deposition was “perhaps criminal,” Robreno wrote five years ago Monday, in a momentous decision that released the case files to The Associated Press, reopened the police investigation, and helped give rise to the #MeToo movement.

Cosby, the Hollywood paragon of Black family values, was convicted of sexual assault in 2018 as the movement exploded and women across the globe shared personal histories of sexual harassment and abuse. He is serving up to 10 years in prison.

And now in the midst of another historic reckoning — this time addressing the treatment of African Americans and other people of color by police and the criminal justice system — the 82-year-old Cosby has won the right to an appeal.

He hopes to use the moment to his advantage.

“The false conviction of Bill Cosby is so much bigger than him — it’s about the destruction of ALL Black people and people of color in America,” Cosby spokesman Andrew Wyatt said when the court accepted the appeal late last month.

Source: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/5/bill-cosby-invokes-systemic-racism-appeal/?utm_source=ForAmerica&fbclid=IwAR0q86pI-0sGKGJ4gT2wYr1xanGX119H8TkfI51Dr-dWIe2Odne26I-adIY

[AutumnW]

Typical Narcissistic deflection of blame on Cosby's part. Some people are in jail because they deserve to be. I'm sure there were no racist overlords forcing him to drug and rape young women. Man, he is loathsome!

[Orobo]

Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
All kinds of things could be happening, but it's important to recognize that "IQ" is really still a very crude concept, and it's actually pretty hard to quantify accurately. (I've encountered a lot of people with high measured IQs who are very dumb, unaware and limited. Many so-called "geniuses" are just good at solving puzzles, and little else.)

Language and culture have a great deal to do with it, while there are definitely genetic predispositions to high levels of mental ability — of course. Intellectual potential is inherited, just as are other assets like strength, height, and so on. But other very variable factors include parenting (very major), early socialization (major), and early nutrition (quite major).

The parenting thing includes early access to certain kinds of games, problem-solving toys, stimulating books, etc. Giving a toddler an iPad to watch cartoons and keep them quiet hardly cuts it when it comes to intellectual development.

:focus:

Hi,

Saw this post and felt I could contribute to get it more clear.
Bill, please let me elaborate as I see it as an important point in this discussion, so still on topic..

I dove into this matter a while back and was surprised at the science amassed in roughly 100 years. Also studies by black scientists in Africa. The data is rather clear.
See what I remember from the top of my head:

The most recent studies said that IQ IS 80 % genetic at 18 years of age. 20% ( which is quite a lot!) room for other factors like nutrition, learning, culture etc.
What would the wording for the genetic component be in your text?: super-duper-mega-major, maybe? : )

Things that have been known to block development of the IQ: Violence toward children throughout their upbringing ( 6-9 points) cousin marriages/inbreeding (6-9 points) malnutrition ( don't remember..), probably several more.

There are also ethnic differences in brain sizes, how the brain matter is built up ( white matter vs grey matter), and speed of development.
Girls develop quicker, but boys develop further ( 4 points difference)
Women are more clustered around the mean of the bell-curve, men more spread out ( more dumb, but also more smart men than women)
Jewish mean 112, Asian 106, European 103, middle eastern 90, African 70, African-American 85.

Ok, nerd out.

This data is not readily talked about here in the west. In Asia it is more widely excepted I understood.
The wages of people follow pretty closely the lines of IQ: On top Jewish people, then Asian followed by White, Hispanic and Black. On average.

These natural differences seem to be suppressed in favour of ideological explanations that are the basis of the current trend:
That it is the result of oppression and bigotry only, and nothing else.
Very very dangerous, as we can see as of late. White supremacy? Without the White people in the top? Just wrong.

All roads to real solutions, real empathy, and real responsibility get blocked this way and open up society to manipulations. There lies a big part of the "systemic" part, me reckons.
The systemic suppression of scientific findings around ethnic differences and contributing them to other factors for power games. Very ugly.

Love, O.

[AutumnW]

Orobo,

The data in your post has been disputed successfully by real scientists. Your post lifts its info from the book, The Bell Curve, or comes from a site, like Stormfront, that lifted it from the book, The Bell Curve. The Bell Curve was written by Charles Murray and has provided ammunition for conservative governments who want to cut back social welfare programs that help the poor, many of whom are black.

After-school programs, extracurricular sports activities and funding for basic education in black neighbourhoods has been cut back radically since this book was written, and though the author, Charles Murray isn't totally responsible for that, his book has helped buttress the racism that relies on ideas from the intellectual class to provide justification for their actions.

The whole "defunding the police" meme is about turning this around and bringing back community social programs and demilitarizing policing while rerouting some funding towards programs that would prevent crime in the first place.

I feel that if I accept the premise of his book without drilling down and getting different opinions, I am operating in a truly retarded manner.

About the Bell Curve, from the Guardian newspaper

"Murray's best-known book, The Bell Curve (1994), runs to more than 800 pages but can be summarised in a few sentences. Black people are more stupid than white people: always have been, always will be. This is why they have less economic and social success. Since the fault lies in their genes, they are doomed to be at the bottom of the heap now and forever."

https://www.theguardian.com/Columnists/Column/0,,219249,00.html

[Justjane]

We are complicit. Every last one of us.

I'm not complicit in any damned thing. :) :heart:

If you think I'm wrong, please explain. Really do.

:flower:

My bad, I should have made it clearer. Every last American is complicit in allowing the gears of the machine to perpetuate systemic racism.

You, a UK national living in Ecuador, have no complicity whatsoever.

If you'd like me to explain why Americans are complicit, I'd be happy to lay it out.I don't believe that for a moment (that all Americans are complicit). I know you mean well (of course! :heart: ), but that's


Straight out of the SJW accusatory witch-hunt playbook. (See this important thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111381-Former-Social-Justice-Warrior-Explains-Why-Social-Justice-Is-All-About-Power-And-Control).)
A projected guilt trip that has no foundation.
An indictment of millions of Americans who aren't complicit in anything at all and never "oppressed" anyone.
A covert instruction for all those people to take a knee in submissive apology for something most of them haven't done.

You can't blame 200 million people (the estimated white population of America) for things that are systemic, i.e. institutional, financial, educational, and/or political.

Each one of those 200 million is a unique individual, with their own upbringing, social background, culture, education, beliefs, values, and wealth and power (or in the vast majority of cases, no wealth or power at all).

The system affects almost everyone. That's what systems do.

And the same applies in other countries. The thread title is Systemic Racism in America. But this has to apply elsewhere as well.

It'd be interesting to hear from our Australian friends here. Is there present-day systemic racism in Australia? I don't know for sure, but there certainly used to be. Was every Australian complicit, even then? Of course not.

Read about what happened to Peter Norman (https://history.com/news/1968-mexico-city-olympics-black-power-protest-backlash), the 1968 200m Olympic silver medalist, whose whole life was wrecked because he supported the immensely brave stand taken by American athletes Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who famously gave their black power salute on the winners' podium.

He wasn't complicit in Australian racism. He was a victim. (That may deserve its own detailed post on the Racism (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100738-Racism) thread, or maybe even a thread of its own in his honor.)

And there's racism in Ecuador, inasmuch as the indigenous people are certainly an underprivileged minority with a whole laundry list of legitimate longterm grievances. They're regarded as a kind of lower caste. (This is the case in many South American countries.) I'm resident here. Am I complicit? Of course not.

There are close parallels in many other countries. India. South Africa. Nigeria. China.

I could go on and on. (But I won't! :) )

No-one can generalize like this.

As the token Australian, of course there is still systemic racism here, I’ve already spoken to that earlier in this thread. Am I complicit, no, it would surprise some to hear me say that, but I do not agree with the blanket we are all to blame, I think it’s counterproductive and limiting.

But, that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a role in breaking down barriers, addressing inequities, holding space for the pain of others and acknowledging the crimes that have been committed against them.

[Justjane]

Academia practices systemic racism against white cis gender men. It is a Nazi mentality and its happening under the radar of most people outside of academia. I only know about it because I have been following Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein, and I adore Weinstein, in particular.

The really odd dynamic that is unfolding here is really about the two Americas, as so many have described on this thread. It is like two separate worlds and cultures and it divides, not city by city, or state by state, necessarily. It divides by neighbourhood.

Isn't it weird that you can have academia, a middle class fortress, falling so far to the 'left' that people rightfully wonder if this is what an absurd form of Communism looks like?

Its so obviously upside down and backwards that I theorized that gender studies or third wave feminism may have been pushed as part of a deep state psi-op, to fool people into associating the traditional left wing and democratic socialism with this kind of craziness.

At the same time, in the other America, you have very clear cut abuses in the judicial system, that most middle class people of all skin colour have no familiarity with. But....blacks of all classes still have to be careful if they are on the streets of neighbourhoods where cops DO regard them as the enemy, by the color of their skin.

This needn't be a polarizing issue, because those who have chosen one side or the other aren't wrong. They are just seeing seeing it from where they sit and what they have experienced. And as Tam described, we all live in bubbles, but never before have these bubbles been so fortified with class stratification.


Academia practices systemic racism against white cis gender men. It is a Nazi mentality and its happening under the radar of most people outside of academia. I only know about it because I have been following Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein, and I adore Weinstein, in particular.

The really odd dynamic that is unfolding here is really about the two Americas, as so many have described on this thread. It is like two separate worlds and cultures and it divides, not city by city, or state by state, necessarily. It divides by neighbourhood.

Isn't it weird that you can have academia, a middle class fortress, falling so far to the 'left' that people rightfully wonder if this is what an absurd form of Communism looks like?

Its so obviously upside down and backwards that I theorized that gender studies or third wave feminism may have been pushed as part of a deep state psi-op, to fool people into associating the traditional left wing and democratic socialism with this kind of craziness.

At the same time, in the other America, you have very clear cut abuses in the judicial system, that most middle class people of all skin colour have no familiarity with. But....blacks of all classes still have to be careful if they are on the streets of neighbourhoods where cops DO regard them as the enemy, by the color of their skin.

This needn't be a polarizing issue, because those who have chosen one side or the other aren't wrong. They are just seeing seeing it from where they sit and what they have experienced. And as Tam described, we all live in bubbles, but never before have these bubbles been so fortified with class stratification.

As a mother to three beautiful boys I can concur. Won’t surprise anyone to learn I’m a social worker but so is my eldest son. He feels he is being forced out of the sector because everyone thinks he’s going to magically turn into a rapist or a paedophile.

Not the greatest fan of JBP, whilst I agree with some of his points, I disagree with many more and I try not to support people who can be as dangerous as he is. He espouses some pretty horrific ideas under his guise of reasonableness. I’d like to see some left wing commentators who can bring some reasonableness and cohesiveness to this space. My kids tell me to do it but I have a voice like an Australian valley girl 🤦🏻‍♀️

I think the reason these issues become so polarising, is because there are many many white people who feel just as disenfranchised as POC. I grew up in a super super stratified town in Australia which was divided literally in half, or thirds really. One third where the rich lived, one third where the working classes lived and one third where the underclasses lived. Those underclasses experienced as much systemic abuse as any POC and no, their whiteness didn’t help them, in any meaningful way, in fact, it worked against them. Being Aboriginal would have meant they received support and services they could never get as a white person.

It’s also interesting to note that the plight of the First Nation People’s of the US have been all but ignored throughout this. They are killed by police almost 3 times more often than white people, twice as often as black Americans.

I’d also like to see that stats on people with a mental illness killed, or people living in poverty, and so on.

Finding common ground here could only bring cohesiveness to this issue.

[Mike]

Jess I've been meaning to comment on your video about Jeffrey Deskovic.

Upon watching I was immediately reminded of the Netflix series called "Making A Murderer", and the saga of Brendan Dassey and Steven Avery. Have you seen those? OMG, you absolutely must see those!

There are more cases out there like this than I'd like to admit. I think Deskovic estimated something like 10,000 wrongful convictions each year. Watching these dramas unfold you keep thinking, ok, it will stop here at the court of appeals. Or, ok, surely the supreme court will put a stop to this madness....and then they don't. It is absolutely astounding!

You can't help but conclude that the rot goes all the way to the top in these cases. Once the cops and the justice system begin doubling and tripling down on their bullsh!t, the stakes get higher and the price of getting exposed even more perilous. With each betrayal of justice the game gets more complex, and the tangled webs even more tangled. No way the system will be allowed to take the dive there, so guys like Avery and Deskovic do. It's often a sadistic and sick process. Evil, actually...I'd call it evil

[AutumnW]

Thanks for watching those, Mike. It's evil and evil can work through just about any system, if there aren't checks and balances from outside of the system. In Canada we still don't have an ombudsman acting outside of the police forces to act as a check and balance against abuse of power. The best we have are virtual citizen ombudsmen using cellphones to create more transparency. Canada's judicial system might be a little more fair but its policing isn't. And if police aren't held to account the rot will go right to the top.

The U.S. judicial system...wow, just nasty and has been for a very very long time. It's only recently that much more attention has been paid to it by the middle class and upper class. Netflix...a force for change!

[AutumnW]

Just Jane,

I think the reason these issues become so polarising, is because there are many many white people who feel just as disenfranchised as POC. I grew up in a super super stratified town in Australia which was divided literally in half, or thirds really. One third where the rich lived, one third where the working classes lived and one third where the underclasses lived. Those underclasses experienced as much systemic abuse as any POC and no, their whiteness didn’t help them, in any meaningful way, in fact, it worked against them. Being Aboriginal would have meant they received support and services they could never get as a white person.

Did the white underclass get the same treatment by the police? I would be interested to know. Every society is a little different! There are people regarded as disposable and those who aren't.

[Orobo]

Orobo,

The data in your post has been disputed successfully by real scientists. Your post lifts its info from the book, The Bell Curve, or comes from a site, like Stormfront, that lifted it from the book, The Bell Curve. The Bell Curve was written by Charles Murray and has provided ammunition for conservative governments who want to cut back social welfare programs that help the poor, many of whom are black.

After-school programs, extracurricular sports activities and funding for basic education in black neighbourhoods has been cut back radically since this book was written, and though the author, Charles Murray isn't totally responsible for that, his book has helped buttress the racism that relies on ideas from the intellectual class to provide justification for their actions.

The whole "defunding the police" meme is about turning this around and bringing back community social programs and demilitarizing policing while rerouting some funding towards programs that would prevent crime in the first place.

I feel that if I accept the premise of his book without drilling down and getting different opinions, I am operating in a truly retarded manner.

About the Bell Curve, from the Guardian newspaper

"Murray's best-known book, The Bell Curve (1994), runs to more than 800 pages but can be summarised in a few sentences. Black people are more stupid than white people: always have been, always will be. This is why they have less economic and social success. Since the fault lies in their genes, they are doomed to be at the bottom of the heap now and forever."

https://www.theguardian.com/Columnists/Column/0,,219249,00.html

Hi Autumn,

Quite the post here from you. This is exactly why we clashed last time. But it does not bother me. The gatekeeping bothers...frankly, our cause.

The science stands, whether you like it or not. Whether stormfront or other "bad people" use it or not. It does not matter in which corner you wish to park me, or the science.
Dr Murray suffered greatly for the science he unearthed. Unjustly, like many others that dared to touch the forbidden knowledge.

What matters is that very evil people or entities use it to try to ruin everything for everyone for ever. Let that sink in.

This, and other information about us humans is held back, distorted or spinned. For a reason, by those people who hate us. All of us.
That is why I want to look at it, take it in and see where it fits on the grand board in front of me. And where it can help. You could too. Maybe even should.

This information can definitely help. It is kind of the antidote to the narrative, the lies. It is about compassion, reason and love.
That is why it is hammered inn... bad bad bad...as the heresy of the day.
It is not. It just ís.

I stopped going to that church you are citing from. Very boring and helps no one. Like the trillions blown on welfare and government plans. It all turns to ****. For a reason. You've read the forum up and down I suppose. Please consider this, for you, next paradigm, it is not scary or mean or retarded.

Link to the science where you say it is refuted, I want to read it all. If I am wrong I will say so.


Love, O.

[AutumnW]

Orobo,

Wherever you have a caste system, you will have differences in average IQ in those entrenched in the bottom class. Poor education, lousy food, the effect of generational violence on the developing brain, exposure to lead. I could go on and on. This racial IQ canard isn't scientific at all.

Trillions blown on welfare. Seriously? What country are you talking about? The U.S blows trillions on warfare, not welfare.

You can argue that IQ is part of a general measure of an individual's intelligence, but your theory breaks down when it comes to extrapolating meaningful conclusions based on racial averages.

There's plenty of studies out there that refute the conclusions you have come to based on the Bell Curve--that IQ is immutable and intrinsic to the individual. It is not and scientists who push this idea are mistaken.

A person can't rise above it, until they are taken out of it or receive help, particularly at crucial junctures of brain development. If not, it WILL be reflected on test scores. The problem isn't all the "help" blacks are recieving, it's that the help is no longer there and you can thank Mr. Bell Curve for contributing to that.

You can do your own research on this. That'll be your homework assignment.

Another thing I want to mention is verbal talent, mathematical talent are considered intelligences, but musical intelligence, athletic prowess, artistic intelligence are considered "talents." So many areas of intelligence that give life luster, meaning and make us fully dimensional are not measured by IQ. Some dry sticks of professorial academic detritus decided to reduce other humans down to raw pulp and extrude them through the narrow tube of IQ testing. Not really fair to the individual, but even less fair to entire groups.

[Mike]

The IQ topic is an interesting one. I was just listening to a video the other day where it was described as being 80% inherited and 20% related to other causes, like nutrition and so forth. I was at work while I was listening, and distracted, so I can't recall who I was listening to. Drats.

I think something like nutrition plays a bigger role than the speaker said though. In high school I often woke up mere minutes before I had to catch a ride to school; I never ate breakfast and I knew nothing about the wonders of coffee back then. My Mom made me lunches, God bless her, but she would often put too much mayo on a turkey sandwich and place it on the bottom of a bag and put an enormous apple on top of it, or banana (or both) turning the thing into a smashed, mushy mess. And then maybe there'd be a bag of chips or something. So the sandwich was inedible; and so was the apple, because the last thing you wanna eat on an empty stomach is an acidic fruit. So it was just me and my chips. I did that for 4 years, and I was in a stupor for most of that time.

When I got to college I'd learned a few things about diet. Not nearly as much as I know now, but enough to make a big difference in my mental clarity and stamina. I was almost a different person altogether. My cognitive abilities increased significantly. So I think Jess is really on to something there. 100%.

On the other hand, there clearly are things that some races do better than others. It applies to the sexes as well. Racism is usually defined as one race claiming superiority over another, but it leaves little room for nuance. American sports, for example (specifically basketball and football) are dominated by black athletes. Always have been. And I've never once thought it was because of a hypothetical, shadowy group of black obstructionists preventing whites from being equally represented. Blacks are just better athletes, in general. But even that is something you can't really say anymore, because the cynics think it implies that's all they can do.

Men and women are mostly the same, but there are some very real differences. Women are more interested in people, and men are more interested in things, in general. So it's not too surprising to see more men engineers and more women nurses and teachers. It's not the result of some hypothetical patriarchal dominance by men.

If blacks are generally better than whites in some areas, would it really be too surprising if it was discovered that whites are better than blacks in some other areas? Maybe whites have some genetic glitch that makes them better accountants and telemarketers. Who the hell knows?

I think it's a very important discussion to have. It'll never happen in the mainstream because everyone fears it'll all degenerate into a eugenics lecture or something. We're just not mature enough to have it. But maybe we can do it here. Might make for a good thread

[lloyds]

When you define yourself as something, whether it's race, sex, belief.... You are creating division. We are all here on this earth eating the same **** sandwich. This is not to say racism or any other ism does not exist, one just needs to drown out the rhetoric, put in 100% and get on with it.

If you label yourself, you've already lost.

[AutumnW]

Orobo,

You have a very strange take on things. I wonder how it would advance all of our freedom to look at collective IQ scores that arrive at wrong conclusions, including that the average "African" is borderline retarded and nothing can be done about it, not diet, not better schooling, etc..etc...

That is a fair question. How does it advance their freedom? And what difference does it make to you? You seem to be arguing for a white European ethno-state here.

[Catsquotl]

Ok so human beings can be differentiated in terms of race, gender, IQ, upper body muscle strength, length of there big toe etc etc.

I hope everybody here will come to the conclusion that although every human being is different, unique and an individual who most likely just wants to have some peace, some fun, experiences of beauty, wonder and feel loved.

How do we build a society in which every one can feel equally worthy.
An argument I am hearing lately is that the freedoms of western society today are that this society will reward anyone who is capable of contributing to society based on their skills.
I feel this is where so called inequality comes from. Not race or one of the others but the idea that I deserve more, because of my contribution to society or some foolish notion like that.

The idea of pulling oneself up by his bootstraps and build something of value for themselves( over the backs of someone else which is usually forgotten) is ludicrous to me.
The self made man/woman. ridiculous..

We all need each other (even when we think we don't)

Inequality, racism and whatever dichotomy one can think of exists, even in some institutions so The word systemic can be bastardized in such contexts.
But again...

Where to go from here and start "rewarding" people for being people instead of what they bring to the table..
At least to some level the can stop struggling and fighting to make ends meet.

And this alas will mean that we have to think long and hard as a society what luxurious goods we really need, which of them cause suffering. and be ready to give them up at some point..

WIth Love
Eelco

[Justjane]

Orobo,

Wherever you have a caste system, you will have differences in average IQ in those entrenched in the bottom class. Poor education, lousy food, the effect of generational violence on the developing brain, exposure to lead. I could go on and on. This racial IQ canard isn't scientific at all.

Trillions blown on welfare. Seriously? What country are you talking about? The U.S blows trillions on warfare, not welfare.

You can argue that IQ is part of a general measure of an individual's intelligence, but your theory breaks down when it comes to extrapolating meaningful conclusions based on racial averages.

There's plenty of studies out there that refute the conclusions you have come to based on the Bell Curve--that IQ is immutable and intrinsic to the individual. It is not and scientists who push this idea are mistaken.

A person can't rise above it, until they are taken out of it or receive help, particularly at crucial junctures of brain development. If not, it WILL be reflected on test scores. The problem isn't all the "help" blacks are recieving, it's that the help is no longer there and you can thank Mr. Bell Curve for contributing to that.

You can do your own research on this. That'll be your homework assignment.

Another thing I want to mention is verbal talent, mathematical talent are considered intelligences, but musical intelligence, athletic prowess, artistic intelligence are considered "talents." So many areas of intelligence that give life luster, meaning and make us fully dimensional are not measured by IQ. Some dry sticks of professorial academic detritus decided to reduce other humans down to raw pulp and extrude them through the narrow tube of IQ testing. Not really fair to the individual, but even less fair to entire groups.

Autumn,

I have done my homework, and got an A.

Frankly I do not want to engage in a discussion with you about this. It will not go well. Let me just write this to you. After that I will just ignore you if nothing constructive comes from your side.

Look. I assume we are on the same side. We all are looking at the tsunami of **** heading our way, and ways to deal with it.
I have looked at this IQ thing in depth, for a long time, and have come to the prudent conclusion that there is something there that will defuse a great part of this bigoted doctrine poisoning our society.

Pointing fingers and attributing things to me that basically aren't mine, or at sources I haven't used.... Stop the immaturities, please. It is using valuable energy to rebut and get on with the needed conversation. It is important, and we will have to look at it. As soon as.
I get where you are coming from, I was there too. I moved on, when I found out I was lied to.

If I am allowed to come with a suggestion it is that one can also engage by asking questions. That furthers the conversation better than a scattershot of closed-minded refusals, wild assumptions and dis-info without direction or links.
That is the tactic of a paid agent to make people disengage, or worse.
Also, it is ok to hang back and relax, without engaging. Works very well for me, I hardly do anyway. I choose my battles wisely. please do so too.
If hysteria was a valid leading factor we wouldn't have gone to using fire in our lives either, long ago.

Love to you. O.



The point is, we get hung from the highest tree for touching this subject and all alarm bells go off due to the internalised propaganda. I get that. I have that too, you know.
I have been using that as a tool for direction instead. So, on with it.


Mike,
You are so prudent, but... Happy to see you there.

Let's take a purely rational look, because we have to, not to get caught up in trivial drama.

I look at it like in nature. There are many races of dogs for example and their qualities differ greatly. One is good in the handbag of a Russian hooker, the other for searching Scandinavian bears on a hunt. Humans are very likely the same. There is no "better", just different.

The little lapdog wouldn't have a happy and productive life alongside the Karelian bear-dogs in the mud and sleet. Maybe the Karelians would not be happy the lapdog is eating from their bowls....bla bla bla, you get the point.

This could be the allegory for muslims/Africans in Europe/US. The society is made by and for Europeans with their qualities. The migrants couldn't, on average, hang in there with the rest. That is also what the stats show. And surely they resent that, maybe rightly so.

It demands rational and abstract thinking to keep oneself on the right track. Happy, positive and productive in such an alien environment. There are many that have trouble with that in their own culture.
From the first generation to the next, and the next, till now the fourth and fifth generations of migrants things turn more and more ugly. A more than linear uptake in crime, disengagement in society, and stuck in the brain- and self-worth rotting welfare-trap. It makes for some very unhappy people. But it seems this is the whole point.

For now comes the Wormtongue: "It is not your fault, it is the racist whites". Most migrants come from cultures where linear, rational and abstract thinking is not a virtue. Freethinkers are shunned or killed. So it is bred out of people by a punishing conformity, over many many generations.
Dump those here, under false pretences, like we have heard in the migrants own words, and they are being played. They are tools or weapons, frankly. Thát is racist, of the most most evil kind.

Some here on Avalon are aware of videos where the perpetrators of said "human dumping" are openly talking about how and why they do that. Rife, is the word. There are even compilations of those "from the horses mouth"-quotes. It goes on for hours on end. Amazin'.

The human, as a tribal species, is built, through evolution, to recognise the smallest differences in facial traits. To safeguard themselves and the tribe. Are them strangers?
The human dumping naturally fires up the uneasiness of the original folk in those countries. This counts also for the US, even though the black population started out as slaves.
Look at the White flight, when black people come to their neighbourhoods.
So, of course, the whites try to keep to their own. Resisting hiring a black person, as an example, is only a natural reaction, but only a detail when seen in the bigger picture of big, real racist policies. Economical or political.
Think about the HUD programs where the (white) ethnicities of neighbourhoods are forcibly broken up by moving black or brown people there. This happens here in Europe also.

There are overtly racist policies, like diversity quotas against the white population. Or hidden, like the welfare programs.
Nixon said something like:"Now we have bound up the black vote for 150 years", when the welfare state came into being. There is a lot more to find about that. It has been an evil plan from the beginning, the welfare state. In principle. The black community was doing actually great up to that point, rising into the middle class quickly. Stopping the rise by taking money from society to lock them up "on the new plantation" like Candace Owens says. Laying the ground work for resentment. On all sides.

It is like in Europe. Take from the Europeans and give it to the migrants, who will keep up making many babies, like in Africa or the Middle East. Diversity hiring, lower punishments for similar crimes etc etc That is very racist, but presented as something good and responsible. Under threat of being called a racist. Upside down world.

Now the migrants in Europe, or the black people in the US are legion (pun ), by systemic racist policies from the 60 and onward, Critical Theory can stoke the fires of said resentment.
Humans are easily led towards that easier route of resentment, through entitlement for example.

What I describe here is a "systemic racism" of a different kind, on another level preceding the currently used one, that is there to make the brown and black folks hate the whites, in who's societies they live.
Being able to see all this, and working through ones own resistance consciously, concerning these workings demands a mental capacity for abstract thinking, and a curiosity that is possible within the individualistic, creative and free culture of the Europeans. What is needed for that is raw mental capacity, called "G". Commonly described by IQ.

These are capacities that, according to scientific testing, are not readily available on average, in some other cultures and (sub-)races of humans. Especially the cultures that are being used as weapons against the ethnic European cultures. Not my idea, just relaying the words of people doing this...both the scientists or the evil-doers in casu.

George Soros: I am going to bring down the United States by funding Black Hate groups. We'll put them into a mental trap and make them hate White people. The Black community is the easiest to manipulate. (2014)is a quote.

I think it is clearly a trap to bind up society in a troubled "systemic racism, see, Whites are bad" while the real "primary racists" wring their hands in delight.
So what if many European people find their way out of their programming and dare/manage to see the big picture, which is not easy, there is still the weaponised folks that need to come to the realisation that being brothers is the only way to get out of this bind. Or plain civil war.
I am afraid that the natural differences between the different peoples are big enough for the controllers to keep everyone running. Hustling with the inborn reactions of a variation of folks.

It is so sad to see the black community being led to burn all their bridges to the real direction where their freedom is. And ours too!
I think that direction is where the ethnic Europeans thrive. It is thóse, and ONLY those, people that collectively has found the universalist insights that led them to see slavery is not good.
They worked endlessly, against all resistance to buy free or set free by other means the slaves.

That one-eyed king has to be killed it seems, by the blind masses, for the the two-faced to take over the throne.

Can someone, a moderator, please confirm whether posts like this are allowed, and if they are, please close my subscription.

[Justjane]

Just Jane,

I think the reason these issues become so polarising, is because there are many many white people who feel just as disenfranchised as POC. I grew up in a super super stratified town in Australia which was divided literally in half, or thirds really. One third where the rich lived, one third where the working classes lived and one third where the underclasses lived. Those underclasses experienced as much systemic abuse as any POC and no, their whiteness didn’t help them, in any meaningful way, in fact, it worked against them. Being Aboriginal would have meant they received support and services they could never get as a white person.

Did the white underclass get the same treatment by the police? I would be interested to know. Every society is a little different! There are people regarded as disposable and those who aren't.

Yes, absolutely. Australia is racist, don’t get me wrong, but the underclasses will be treated just as badly and won’t have the luxury of having BLM on their side.

I’m becoming increasingly concerned by the conduct of police here actually. It seems like very week someone was being shot by police, usually killed, and that just doesn’t happen here. Most of the people were either drug affected or mentally ill. The problem though, is when I try to find statistics or information about these cases, there isn’t any. None. Just reference to the last incidence via the media.

Super concerning.

Our police used to wear khakis and akubras (a kind of cowboy hat), now they wear black like New York police with weapons front and center. Even our transit police look like they’re part of some special ops team.

And Australia, like Canada, is safe!

[Sarah Rainsong]

<snip>
Let's take a purely rational look, because we have to, not to get caught up in trivial drama. Yes, let's do that.

I look at it like in nature. There are many races of dogs for example and their qualities differ greatly. One is good in the handbag of a Russian hooker, the other for searching Scandinavian bears on a hunt. Humans are very likely the same. There is no "better", just different.

The little lapdog wouldn't have a happy and productive life alongside the Karelian bear-dogs in the mud and sleet. Maybe the Karelians would not be happy the lapdog is eating from their bowls....bla bla bla, you get the point.

This could be the allegory for muslims/Africans in Europe/US. The society is made by and for Europeans with their qualities. The migrants couldn't, on average, hang in there with the rest. That is also what the stats show. And surely they resent that, maybe rightly so.

So right here, you suggest that "migrants" or non-Europeans (aka. non-white) simply can't handle European (aka. white) society.

It demands rational and abstract thinking to keep oneself on the right track. Happy, positive and productive in such an alien environment. There are many that have trouble with that in their own culture.
From the first generation to the next, and the next, till now the fourth and fifth generations of migrants things turn more and more ugly. A more than linear uptake in crime, disengagement in society, and stuck in the brain- and self-worth rotting welfare-trap. It makes for some very unhappy people. But it seems this is the whole point.

The reason that non-whites are unhappy are because they are in a white society? They are not in "their own culture" so things "turn more and more ugly"?

For now comes the Wormtongue: "It is not your fault, it is the racist whites". Most migrants come from cultures where linear, rational and abstract thinking is not a virtue. Freethinkers are shunned or killed. So it is bred out of people by a punishing conformity, over many many generations.
Dump those here, under false pretences, like we have heard in the migrants own words, and they are being played. They are tools or weapons, frankly. Thát is racist, of the most most evil kind.

What are you saying here? It sounds to me like you are proposing what I have bolded, but maybe, considering the following sentences, you're arguing against it? In any case, what is bolded is just wrong and appalling.

Some here on Avalon are aware of videos where the perpetrators of said "human dumping" are openly talking about how and why they do that. Rife, is the word. There are even compilations of those "from the horses mouth"-quotes. It goes on for hours on end. Amazin'.

The human, as a tribal species, is built, through evolution, to recognise the smallest differences in facial traits. To safeguard themselves and the tribe. Are them strangers?
The human dumping naturally fires up the uneasiness of the original folk in those countries. This counts also for the US, even though the black population started out as slaves.
Look at the White flight, when black people come to their neighbourhoods.
So, of course, the whites try to keep to their own. Resisting hiring a black person, as an example, is only a natural reaction, but only a detail when seen in the bigger picture of big, real racist policies. Economical or political.
Think about the HUD programs where the (white) ethnicities of neighbourhoods are forcibly broken up by moving black or brown people there. This happens here in Europe also.

People do tend to be mistrustful of what they are not familiar with, but that is only indirectly related to race. Are you suggesting that people should just follow the easiest, most familiar path and engage in segregation? What is enlightened about that?

There are overtly racist policies, like diversity quotas against the white population. Or hidden, like the welfare programs.
Nixon said something like:"Now we have bound up the black vote for 150 years", when the welfare state came into being. There is a lot more to find about that. It has been an evil plan from the beginning, the welfare state. In principle. The black community was doing actually great up to that point, rising into the middle class quickly. Stopping the rise by taking money from society to lock them up "on the new plantation" like Candace Owens says. Laying the ground work for resentment. On all sides.

Okay, so racist policies (aka systemic racism) lays the groundwork for resent. Yeah, I can agree with that.

It is like in Europe. Take from the Europeans and give it to the migrants, who will keep up making many babies, like in Africa or the Middle East. Diversity hiring, lower punishments for similar crimes etc etc That is very racist, but presented as something good and responsible. Under threat of being called a racist. Upside down world.

Now the migrants in Europe, or the black people in the US are legion (pun ), by systemic racist policies from the 60 and onward, Critical Theory can stoke the fires of said resentment.
Humans are easily led towards that easier route of resentment, through entitlement for example.

WTH does "making many babies" have to do with anything? Where does that come from? The concern that the non-whites will out-breed whites is something I've only directly encountered in patriarchal, white Christian supremacy. Why are you even mentioning that here? What does that have to do with the point of your post?

I cannot attest to Europe, but here in America, there is most assuredly NOT lower punishments for non-whites who commit crimes.

What I describe here is a "systemic racism" of a different kind, on another level preceding the currently used one, that is there to make the brown and black folks hate the whites, in who's societies they live.

So the non-whites hate whites because they live in white society... and they shouldn't? Because they're BRED not to?

Being able to see all this, and working through ones own resistance consciously, concerning these workings demands a mental capacity for abstract thinking, and a curiosity that is possible within the individualistic, creative and free culture of the Europeans. What is needed for that is raw mental capacity, called "G". Commonly described by IQ.

So only smart people are going to be able to understand that non-whites do not belong in a white society?

These are capacities that, according to scientific testing, are not readily available on average, in some other cultures and (sub-)races of humans. Especially the cultures that are being used as weapons against the ethnic European cultures. Not my idea, just relaying the words of people doing this...both the scientists or the evil-doers in casu.

Scientific testing...the same scientific community that promotes vaccines? That insist that there's not such thing as aliens or ET or anything outside of reductionist thinking?

Non-whites do not have the "capacity" for "abstract thinking" "curiosity" "individualist thinking"? They just don't have the "raw mental capacity"?

George Soros: I am going to bring down the United States by funding Black Hate groups. We'll put them into a mental trap and make them hate White people. The Black community is the easiest to manipulate. (2014)is a quote.

I think it is clearly a trap to bind up society in a troubled "systemic racism, see, Whites are bad" while the real "primary racists" wring their hands in delight.
So what if many European people find their way out of their programming and dare/manage to see the big picture, which is not easy, there is still the weaponised folks that need to come to the realisation that being brothers is the only way to get out of this bind. Or plain civil war.
I am afraid that the natural differences between the different peoples are big enough for the controllers to keep everyone running. Hustling with the inborn reactions of a variation of folks.

It is so sad to see the black community being led to burn all their bridges to the real direction where their freedom is. And ours too!
I think that direction is where the ethnic Europeans thrive. It is thóse, and ONLY those, people that collectively has found the universalist insights that led them to see slavery is not good.
They worked endlessly, against all resistance to buy free or set free by other means the slaves.

That one-eyed king has to be killed it seems, by the blind masses, for the the two-faced to take over the throne.

You are attempting to set yourself up to be the advocate of non-white people, but what you really have done is reveal a deep-seated, highly biased white supremacy view.

This is NOT OKAY, folks! I am deleting the original post and leaving this here for now, because everyone needs to understand that trying to argue that non-white people do not belong in white society is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I am further locking this thread until Bill or one of the other more seasoned moderators can check this out.

[Forest Denizen]

Good call, Sarah. I am guilty of having ignored this thread as well. The subject is more highly fraught and polarized than I ever imagined could be the case on this Forum.

[Bill Ryan]

Good call, Sarah. I am guilty of having ignored this thread as well. The subject is more highly fraught and polarized than I ever imagined could be the case on this Forum.

Mod note from Bill:

Yes. It's an ultra-sensitive topic, one of the very most there can be. But laying all emotion aside, and applying my inner Spock, in pragmatic terms it simply serves zero purpose.

It helps no-one at all, can only fuel more fires, and isn't relevant to any legitimate human rights issue. And it's not relevant to Systemic Racism, either.

Not even to education: education issues are really all about $$ finance and political policy decisions. Taking the risk of talking about IQ in this post (whatever "IQ" actually is!), good education, good parenting and a good socio-cultural environment can make a very wonderful human being out of anyone, or any color at all, anywhere in the world, who's no intellectual genius. That's what matters.

Even Gary Voss (see this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111430-The-Right-to-Hate----a-poem-by-Gary-Voss)), a highly sensitive and aware man, would never include this in any poem of his.

~~~

I did post this on the thread a week ago (3 July), thinking — wrongly! — the "IQ" thing could be dismissed. I jumped on it quite quickly, and rightly so. It was actually Catsquotl who first opened the can of worms. Orobo's thoughts were stimulated by that.

Do read my reply.





Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
All kinds of things could be happening, but it's important to recognize that "IQ" is really still a very crude concept, and it's actually pretty hard to quantify accurately. (I've encountered a lot of people with high measured IQs who are very dumb, unaware and limited. Many so-called "geniuses" are just good at solving puzzles, and little else.)

Language and culture have a great deal to do with it, while there are definitely genetic predispositions to high levels of mental ability — of course. Intellectual potential is inherited, just as are other assets like strength, height, and so on. But other very variable factors include parenting (very major), early socialization (major), and early nutrition (quite major).

The parenting thing includes early access to certain kinds of games, problem-solving toys, stimulating books, etc. Giving a toddler an iPad to watch cartoons and keep them quiet hardly cuts it when it comes to intellectual development.

:focus:

We're not going to censor anything here. Gary Voss wouldn't approve of that, either. :) But this issue definitely doesn't belong on this important thread.

[Catsquotl]

[/I]I did post this on the thread a week ago (3 July), thinking — wrongly! — the "IQ" thing could be dismissed. I jumped on it quite quickly, and rightly so. It was actually Catsquotl who first opened the can of worms. Orobo's thoughts were stimulated by that.



Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?


It was me, however the context in which I used it was not intended to open that can of worms, merely to show that somehow children who were given more opportunity to advance in primairy school were somehow all white even when the kids picked to advance all came from a mixed pool of kids to choose from.

To be honest I did not know there were studies who charted differences.

With Love

[silvanelf]

Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?


Here you can see just 3 high IQ children of color ... they became chess masters before turning 13 !!



Teens Justus Williams, Joshua Colas and James Black Jr. Earn Praise As Young Chess Masters

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5bad9f372200005700daba5b.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_noupscale

It rarely comes as a surprise for an African American to be the latest rising sports star, whether he’s slam dunking on the court or scoring touchdowns on the field. But cornering a king on the chess board? That isn’t so common.

However, a trio of black teens have all become chess masters before turning 13, an achievement that’s not only rare in their sport, but virtually unheard of in the black community.

Justus Williams, Joshua Colas and James Black Jr. are three black chess players that have obtained the difficult title of chess master at a very young age, The New York Times reports.

The trio, each of whom are from the New York City area, is part of only 13 chess masters under age 14 in the entire United States Chess Federation.

-- snip --

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/three-black-teens-earn-pr_n_1093371

[Ewan]

I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on wether there is systemic racism in America as I've never been to the country. If I were to hazard a guess distilled from various news reports and portrayals in film I'd be inclined to think perhaps there was, but hesitantly as I could also be wrong. Let me look a little deeper, sharing my thoughts, and see if I can come to a tentative conclusion.

Racism is just another from of prejudice and the vast majority of humans are prejudiced one way or another, and mostly unaware of it. Like all prejudices that focus on 'people who are not us', racism is taught, or more correctly, absorbed. Most children growing up within a certain culture will learn that cultures ideologies, that's natural. Should a certain culture have an historical mistrust of a neighbouring culture the young mind will absorb that programming, in larger more widespread cultures communities and/or regions within said culture can develop mistrust of their closest neighbours, once learned it can be difficult to break free of such conditioning. A developing common sense and exposure to other ideas, such as one might find when transplanted from home to a college or university for example, grants the opportunity to hopefully re-evaluate that which was held to be true.

Back in the late 80's, in the Northern Territory of Australia, I met a man that was rabidly racist about the Aborigines. By no means the first racist I'd encountered but what appalled me about this particular man was he would openly state his vitriolic views in front of his children. I just felt pity for them. It took many, many years before it occurred to me the man was probably a victim of exactly the same indoctrination and was blind to it. He knew he hated, he didn't know why, he just did. I must say in those days the majority of rural Aussie males I met were at least a little racist even if just by the use of common vernacular when referring to the indigenous peoples.

Which leads to me wonder if anyone can be guilty of being a racist/prejudicial if on some level they are responding to deep conditioning from childhood. One would certainly hope the majority get to temper their views as they mature and gather various life experiences, conversely, and sadly, some will have their viewpoints reinforced. On broader levels our prejudices are deeply ingrained and all take much work to rise above. I had to take a hard look at my own views when searching for prejudices that I hold and ultimately could only find a large distaste for the so called upper-classes. Those with inherited money in particular, the ones that are sent to the bizzarely named 'public' schools and are earmarked for careers in politics and high powered jobs.

So, Sarah Rainsong, does systemic racism in America exist. Within certain individuals and certain groups of individuals it probably does but then it would no longer be systemic. I would not say all police, all judges for instance, but I could believe that some police, some judges, some politicians, some employers etc, have very strong prejudices.

I would think our biggest problem now is how easily our prejudices can be manipulated through the media, and what seems a determined drive to alienate every group from any healing and drive everyone further apart. Who would have thought that a very old subterfuge such as divide et impera could be so successfully used in our modern age.

PS: The Bell Curve is the biggest load of tripe, but sure you can find scientists who will verify its findings - as they are reinforcing their own prejudices.

[Orobo]

<snip>
Let's take a purely rational look, because we have to, not to get caught up in trivial drama. Yes, let's do that.

I look at it like in nature. There are many races of dogs for example and their qualities differ greatly. One is good in the handbag of a Russian hooker, the other for searching Scandinavian bears on a hunt. Humans are very likely the same. There is no "better", just different.

The little lapdog wouldn't have a happy and productive life alongside the Karelian bear-dogs in the mud and sleet. Maybe the Karelians would not be happy the lapdog is eating from their bowls....bla bla bla, you get the point.

This could be the allegory for muslims/Africans in Europe/US. The society is made by and for Europeans with their qualities. The migrants couldn't, on average, hang in there with the rest. That is also what the stats show. And surely they resent that, maybe rightly so.

So right here, you suggest that "migrants" or non-Europeans (aka. non-white) simply can't handle European (aka. white) society.

It demands rational and abstract thinking to keep oneself on the right track. Happy, positive and productive in such an alien environment. There are many that have trouble with that in their own culture.
From the first generation to the next, and the next, till now the fourth and fifth generations of migrants things turn more and more ugly. A more than linear uptake in crime, disengagement in society, and stuck in the brain- and self-worth rotting welfare-trap. It makes for some very unhappy people. But it seems this is the whole point.

The reason that non-whites are unhappy are because they are in a white society? They are not in "their own culture" so things "turn more and more ugly"?

For now comes the Wormtongue: "It is not your fault, it is the racist whites". Most migrants come from cultures where linear, rational and abstract thinking is not a virtue. Freethinkers are shunned or killed. So it is bred out of people by a punishing conformity, over many many generations.
Dump those here, under false pretences, like we have heard in the migrants own words, and they are being played. They are tools or weapons, frankly. Thát is racist, of the most most evil kind.

What are you saying here? It sounds to me like you are proposing what I have bolded, but maybe, considering the following sentences, you're arguing against it? In any case, what is bolded is just wrong and appalling.

Some here on Avalon are aware of videos where the perpetrators of said "human dumping" are openly talking about how and why they do that. Rife, is the word. There are even compilations of those "from the horses mouth"-quotes. It goes on for hours on end. Amazin'.

The human, as a tribal species, is built, through evolution, to recognise the smallest differences in facial traits. To safeguard themselves and the tribe. Are them strangers?
The human dumping naturally fires up the uneasiness of the original folk in those countries. This counts also for the US, even though the black population started out as slaves.
Look at the White flight, when black people come to their neighbourhoods.
So, of course, the whites try to keep to their own. Resisting hiring a black person, as an example, is only a natural reaction, but only a detail when seen in the bigger picture of big, real racist policies. Economical or political.
Think about the HUD programs where the (white) ethnicities of neighbourhoods are forcibly broken up by moving black or brown people there. This happens here in Europe also.

People do tend to be mistrustful of what they are not familiar with, but that is only indirectly related to race. Are you suggesting that people should just follow the easiest, most familiar path and engage in segregation? What is enlightened about that?

There are overtly racist policies, like diversity quotas against the white population. Or hidden, like the welfare programs.
Nixon said something like:"Now we have bound up the black vote for 150 years", when the welfare state came into being. There is a lot more to find about that. It has been an evil plan from the beginning, the welfare state. In principle. The black community was doing actually great up to that point, rising into the middle class quickly. Stopping the rise by taking money from society to lock them up "on the new plantation" like Candace Owens says. Laying the ground work for resentment. On all sides.

Okay, so racist policies (aka systemic racism) lays the groundwork for resent. Yeah, I can agree with that.

It is like in Europe. Take from the Europeans and give it to the migrants, who will keep up making many babies, like in Africa or the Middle East. Diversity hiring, lower punishments for similar crimes etc etc That is very racist, but presented as something good and responsible. Under threat of being called a racist. Upside down world.

Now the migrants in Europe, or the black people in the US are legion (pun ), by systemic racist policies from the 60 and onward, Critical Theory can stoke the fires of said resentment.
Humans are easily led towards that easier route of resentment, through entitlement for example.

WTH does "making many babies" have to do with anything? Where does that come from? The concern that the non-whites will out-breed whites is something I've only directly encountered in patriarchal, white Christian supremacy. Why are you even mentioning that here? What does that have to do with the point of your post?

I cannot attest to Europe, but here in America, there is most assuredly NOT lower punishments for non-whites who commit crimes.

What I describe here is a "systemic racism" of a different kind, on another level preceding the currently used one, that is there to make the brown and black folks hate the whites, in who's societies they live.

So the non-whites hate whites because they live in white society... and they shouldn't? Because they're BRED not to?

Being able to see all this, and working through ones own resistance consciously, concerning these workings demands a mental capacity for abstract thinking, and a curiosity that is possible within the individualistic, creative and free culture of the Europeans. What is needed for that is raw mental capacity, called "G". Commonly described by IQ.

So only smart people are going to be able to understand that non-whites do not belong in a white society?

These are capacities that, according to scientific testing, are not readily available on average, in some other cultures and (sub-)races of humans. Especially the cultures that are being used as weapons against the ethnic European cultures. Not my idea, just relaying the words of people doing this...both the scientists or the evil-doers in casu.

Scientific testing...the same scientific community that promotes vaccines? That insist that there's not such thing as aliens or ET or anything outside of reductionist thinking?

Non-whites do not have the "capacity" for "abstract thinking" "curiosity" "individualist thinking"? They just don't have the "raw mental capacity"?

George Soros: I am going to bring down the United States by funding Black Hate groups. We'll put them into a mental trap and make them hate White people. The Black community is the easiest to manipulate. (2014)is a quote.

I think it is clearly a trap to bind up society in a troubled "systemic racism, see, Whites are bad" while the real "primary racists" wring their hands in delight.
So what if many European people find their way out of their programming and dare/manage to see the big picture, which is not easy, there is still the weaponised folks that need to come to the realisation that being brothers is the only way to get out of this bind. Or plain civil war.
I am afraid that the natural differences between the different peoples are big enough for the controllers to keep everyone running. Hustling with the inborn reactions of a variation of folks.

It is so sad to see the black community being led to burn all their bridges to the real direction where their freedom is. And ours too!
I think that direction is where the ethnic Europeans thrive. It is thóse, and ONLY those, people that collectively has found the universalist insights that led them to see slavery is not good.
They worked endlessly, against all resistance to buy free or set free by other means the slaves.

That one-eyed king has to be killed it seems, by the blind masses, for the the two-faced to take over the throne.

You are attempting to set yourself up to be the advocate of non-white people, but what you really have done is reveal a deep-seated, highly biased white supremacy view.

This is NOT OKAY, folks! I am deleting the original post and leaving this here for now, because everyone needs to understand that trying to argue that non-white people do not belong in white society is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I am further locking this thread until Bill or one of the other more seasoned moderators can check this out.

Hi,

Like I wrote, it is a dispassionate look. Calling a spade a spade.
I will have to go through your reactions and react myself if that is what you want.
I am not an evil racist guy, quite the opposite. I can put aside my propagandised self and look hard at what lies in fornt of me and compare it to data form science and observations from myself and family living in many European countries. We all see what happens, but dare we say it.
And, be assured, most observations, or timid conclusions are based on averages...things that happen/are in general. Nothing is absolute.
And, yes there is data that I haven't seen. So I can be wrong too. But we can talk about it! :happythumbsup:

Love, O.

[Sarah Rainsong]

Orobo, you are basically saying that since systemic racism exists, we should just not have mixed societies.

First, you're making the mistake of putting whites at the top, which is not only arrogant and ignorant, it is highly offensive.

Second, that's impossible. Even if it was like that at some point in our global history, there is no way it's going to happen now.

Third, the idea of isolating people into groups to make "peace" is the given motivation behind many genocidal dictators as well as the plot of a host of apocalyptic movies. It does not advance humanity--it devolves it.

ALL of humanity is ONE RACE. We need to learn to get along, to come together, to appreciate our differences... NOT cater to the lowest denominator and segregate into various "racial" groups. Not only do we need diversity to survive, we need it to advance.

I am going to ask that you abstain from posting further in this thread. Please visit All about "IQ" (whatever that means!) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111461-All-about-IQ--whatever-that-means--) and consider the various types of intelligence discussed there. Feel free to post on that thread and anywhere else, but you are missing a very big part of the picture here.



Orobo,

You have a very strange take on things. I wonder how it would advance all of our freedom to look at collective IQ scores that arrive at wrong conclusions, including that the average "African" is borderline retarded and nothing can be done about it, not diet, not better schooling, etc..etc...

That is a fair question. How does it advance their freedom? And what difference does it make to you? You seem to be arguing for a white European ethno-state here.

Thanks, I appreciate the question.

Well, for one, it punctures the "it is bigotry, and only bigotry so now we take down western civilisation and kill all the whites" scam.

The whites, mostly the christians, who as the single culture have come to the conclusion slavery is bad and worked hard to change it. With money and blood.
The Whites who are involved in environmental projects, cultural projects because they have a great deal of empathy for other beings outside of their in-group or direct vicinity, and produced a surplus to be able to go and help others. That seems quite unique.

Secondly it gives back agency to the black community. It is so horribly racist and destructive, to take that away. Sure there are things they can do. Look at how well things went before the 60s. They are human beings too, that can find a way to make it work. Both in the US and in Africa.
Playing them on their lower motivations (fear, envy, lust etc...) traps them in anger, which is the opposite of freedom. It is quite easy to to with whites too, so Soros is right about that the black community is the easiest to rile up. Acknowledging those facts give insight in how to deal with the challenges.

I like to play with the thought that total psychopaths deal with us like, well, cattle for example. How to manage the herd to get the result they would want.
Birth-control by pills and abortions ( yeah, who was that I wonder?) and using the different qualities of the stocks against each other. They know us in and out, and use it for what it is worth.
Getting the scientific knowledge front and center is of great help because it make us more aware of the tactics that can be used against us.

Knowing your own strengths and weaknesses is half the victory. That is all.

About the white ethno-state...I don't know. The more homogenous the people in a country the more peaceful it is. Less resources get used up on schooling and special programs. Less differences in status/class/wealth, so less envy, distrust.
The distrust and its eroding function on civil society is well documented through many decades. Less playing outside ( cocooning it is called) which leads to less exercise/more fat and unhealthy children and adults= healthcare costs rise.
Less friendly people on the streets means more crime and even less happy interactions on the streets= rising costs of policing/detention and fall of real estate prices.
So everyone loses. Also trust in between people of their own ethnic group goes down.
It is all vey clear and very simple. Migration ruins quality of life for all.
Paying forth the cultural peculiarities of the host-country gets more and more of a problem and will be removed totally in the end, like we see now.

I am not sure if diverse countries can be made to work again, it does not look good.

And less differences that can be used to play off sides against each other...political power is a difficult thing to handle for humans, so I am afraid that is so easy to misuse.

Is this a plea for ethnic homogenous countries? It is condemned widely and fiercely but when I write this I feel it might be better if my country would thank the guest-population for their stay and send them back, with the knowledge that a better society, if they miss that, can be built in their home country. It could be a motivation to make it less ****holey. And we could help them. We should, and I am shure we will. I would, that's how racist I am. :Angel:

It is also documented that the northern climates are not doing the peoples from warm countries any good. That works on a profound level. It throws off the chemical balance and makes for miserable humans.

The situation now is so bad, and getting worse, that it would be better for most to reverse the willed changes in our societies, made by evil people to ruin and enslave all.

I'll throw in a little personal anecdote... When I moved here, form one white western country to another. I did that for positive reasons, I loved it here. But, even though, there is an unstoppable and pretty hard learning curve. Who am I, why did I do this? The small differences in how the locals communicate and their customs became very irritating. The trap of judging them hard, as weak and coward was there for some time. The frustration was big, before I found peace.

Others that had made the same move as me had the same deep frustration, even the ones that moved when they were only 3 years of age.
So I know, it must be very difficult for them from a muslim or African country. With their ethnic peers echoing the same frustration that turns to hate. I haven't even talked about the religious aspects that augment the troubles I describe.
I feel it is almost insurmountable. So the soil is very very fertile for the intersectionalitists. That is exactly why ethno-nationalist ideas are condemned I think. It might be the solution.




Love, O.



Hi,

Like I wrote, it is a dispassionate look. Calling a spade a spade.
I will have to go through your reactions and react myself if that is what you want.
I am not an evil racist guy, quite the opposite. I can put aside my propagandised self and look hard at what lies in fornt of me and compare it to data form science and observations from myself and family living in many European countries. We all see what happens, but dare we say it.
And, be assured, most observations, or timid conclusions are based on averages...things that happen/are in general. Nothing is absolute.
And, yes there is data that I haven't seen. So I can be wrong too. But we can talk about it! :happythumbsup:

Love, O.

[rgray222]

Thomas Sowell says concept of systemic racism 'has no meaning,' warns US could reach 'point of no return'

Economist says left's use of phrase recalls 'propaganda tactics of Joseph Goebbels'

Economist and author Thomas Sowell told "Life Liberty & Levin" in an interview airing Sunday evening that the left's claim that America is beset by "systemic racism" has no definitive meaning and cannot be "tested" in any empirical manner.

https://www.heartland.org/sebin/l/i/Sowell420.jpg
American economist and social theorist who is currently a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

"You hear this phrase, 'systemic racism' [or] 'systemic oppression'," host Mark Levin told Sowell. "You hear it on our college campuses. You hear it from very wealthy and fabulously famous sports stars. What does that mean? And whatever it means, is it true?"

"It really has no meaning that can be specified and tested in the way that one tests hypotheses," answered Sowell, who added that the currency of the phrase reminds him of the "propaganda tactics" of Nazi Germany, where Sowell claimed that if a lie was "repeated long enough and loud enough" it would be widely believed.

Sowell agreed with Levin's theory that most who have taken part in protests across America in recent months do not live in the communities they claim to support, but only go there to "hand out turkeys" at Thanksgiving and live among the people they claim are oppressors.

"They're absolute hypocrites," the host said. "They claim they want equality for all. They claim that there'll be the withering away of the ... police departments ... and yet every time you look at a Marxist state, it is an authoritarian, top-down, centralized police state."

Sowell chimed in that while activists claim to be casting off racial and class differences, they only end up creating their own "nomenclature" and establishing their own hierarchies.

Source: https://www.foxnews.com/media/thomas-sowell-systemic-racism-has-no-meaning

[Forest Denizen]

I am going to post this story from The Guardian along with an article in the next post that I believe does a good job of articulating the foggy history associated with this subject.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/07/lousiana-court-denies-life-sentence-appeal-fair-wayne-bryant-black-man-hedge-clippers

Fair Wayne Bryant was sentenced to life in prison in 1997 for attempted simple burglary, and justices rejected his recent appeal

44012

A prison in Louisiana. Photograph: Giles Clarke/Getty Images

A black man in Louisiana will continue to serve a life sentence in prison for trying to steal hedge clippers after the state supreme court denied a request to review his sentence.

Fair Wayne Bryant was convicted in 1997 of attempted simple burglary.
The five justices who rejected his appeal – all white men – did not explain the reasoning for their decision, which was first reported by the Lens, a non-profit news site in New Orleans.

The supreme court’s lone dissent came from the only black or female member of the court, Chief Justice Bernette Johnson. She wrote the sentencing was a “modern manifestation” of the extreme punishments meted out to newly emancipated black men in the post-civil war era.
“The sentence imposed is excessive and disproportionate to the offense the defendant committed,” Johnson wrote.

Bryant, 62, received the life sentence under Louisiana’s habitual offender law, which allows a person’s sentence to increase based on their criminal history.

Before Bryant’s 1997 arrest, he was convicted for attempted armed robbery in 1979, his only violent conviction. He was sentenced to 10 years hard labor for the crime. His other previous charges were for possession of stolen things in 1987, attempted check forgery in 1989 and simple burglary in 1992.

Last year, Governor John Bel Edwards signed a reform to the habitual law which criminal justice advocates described as an “incremental” step forward.
In Johnson’s dissent, the justice wrote that all of Bryant’s crimes were for stealing something. “It is cruel and unusual to impose a sentence of life in prison at hard labor for the criminal behavior which is most often caused by poverty or addiction,” she wrote.

The 23 years Bryant has served in prison since the 1997 has cost Louisiana taxpayers more than $518,000, Johnson noted. “If he lives another 20 years, Louisiana taxpayers will have paid almost one million dollars to punish Mr Bryant for his failed effort to steal a set of hedge clippers,” she wrote.

Her dissent then explained that after the era of Reconstruction, which followed the civil war, southern states implemented laws which gave newly emancipated African American citizens extreme punishment for petty crimes. In some places, these were known as “pig laws”, and they were “largely designed to re-enslave African Americans”, Johnson wrote.

Her dissent ended: “And this case demonstrates their modern manifestation: harsh habitual offender laws that permit a life sentence for a black man convicted of property crimes.”

[Forest Denizen]

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

https://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/UN-Report-on-Racial-Disparities.pdf

[atman]

In her opening post, Sarah wrote "Consider this more of an information gathering session, not a place to discuss or argue about how to fix anything. (...) Detail is encouraged."

Well, I came across an interesting video, last week, that is not only pertinent to the subject of this thread, but that is also well put together, with plenty of documentation and levelheaded argumentation by an American electrical engineer, Casey Petersen, who just last week opened up a YouTube channel called Data Driven Conclusions (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWjvTQVcjhyEKVyb4zqOmxQ/videos).

The video in question is titled:





Pushing Back on the Narrative of Modern
Systemic Racism & White Privilege
Unravelling Claims Through Data, Facts, Studies, Statistics and Critical Thinking





zyNW9nlFDBk


To help you decide whether to watch it or not, I have extracted the closed captions of the first 4 1/2 minutes of the 64-minute long presentation and have reformatted and slightly edited them for ease of reading.

Here it goes:





Pushing Back on the Narrative of Modern
Systemic Racism & White Privilege

Following the death of George Floyd, my company began posting internal materials and hosting trainings based on Critical Race Theory (CRT).

Despite my extensive efforts to point out the blatant lies and deep immorality of these resources and classes, no changes were made.

I offered to host a class correcting the record. I was told that the company is not hosting a forum for debate and to keep my opinions at home and to get back to work.

I was told by the senior manager of HR that "it is not our job to fact check the materials for accuracy" and they refused to pull down the offending materials.

Over the weeks, as I dug deeper into their materials and attended their trainings, I found that this divisive ideology was the rule rather than the exception.

This ideology breeds nothing but unjustified fear, guilt, anger, victim-hood and hatred.

This is a video that I did not want to make, but I felt morally obligated to. We're gonna be pushing back on the narrative of modern systemic racism and white privilege, where we'll be unravelling claims through data, facts, studies, statistics and critical thinking.

As far as I know, this ideology being pushed in my place of work is unprecedented.

If you're unaware what Critical Race Theory is, Critical Race Theory is the view that the law and legal institutions are inherently racist and that race itself, instead of being biologically grounded and natural, is a socially constructed concept that is used by white people to further their economic and political interests at the expense of people of color.

According to Critical Race Theory, racial inequalities emerge from the social, economic and legal differences that white people create between "races" to maintain elite white interests in labour markets and politics, giving rise to poverty and criminality in many minority communities.

This is a completely un-American concept because at its base it's the idea that you are guilty until proven innocent or that you are racist until you are absolved of your racism by a person of color.

And we are going to explore this more in the rest of this video and go in depth with some of the different materials that the HR has provided to us.

Let me provide clarifications right up-front here, what I am claiming versus what I am not claiming.


I am claiming that:

The way Systemic Racism and White Privilege are represented and taught today are, at a minimum, controversial and vastly overblown


It does not belong in the workplace


Much of the mainstream claims and data are outright false


Racism is NOT a public health crisis


Systemic racism is NOT a major problem in 2020 America


And don't worry, I will provide data and sources to support these bold claims.

Now, equally important, is what I am not claiming:


I am not claiming that racism does not exist in the United States today


I am not claiming historic systemic racism never existed in the United States


I am not claiming Black Americans are currently not feeling any effects of historic racism and historic oppression


Nor am I claiming that Black Americans are not feeling or not suffering disproportionately from class-based disparities


Now a little about me. I have been with my company for five years now. I served honorably five and a half years in the U.S. Army Infantry, after which I pursued a degree — a master's degree in electrical engineering. I became a research and development electrical engineer for our company which is a federally funded research and development center (or FFRDC) and our company employs nearly 13 000 employees. We tackle some of the nation's most sensitive and difficult national security problems and we are absolutely critical to the nation security. I could not say enough good things about the people that I work with and the work that we do. Anyways, let's fix this so we can get back to focusing on what we do best: national security.

So what controversial views did or does my company HR department boost? My HR department hosted an internal web page about a couple months ago and it was called/titled "Talking About Race in the Workplace".

Now let me give a disclaimer up front here. I am not saying that I disagree with everything in these resources. You do not need to disagree to realize that most these materials are controversial, of a political nature and do not belong in the workplace.

So what are these claims?


America is chronically, systemically racist


Racism is a public health crisis


Silence is compliance or even silence is violence (you must be an activist) (This is a "you're with us or against us' type of thinking and it is directly in opposition to dialogue and diversity of thinking)


Color blindness is racist


The validity of your ideas is dependent upon the color of your skin


Many of these materials seem to be dedicated to convincing you that even YOU are unconsciously racist, the implication being that if you—the least racist person you know—are a little bit racist, then just imagine how racist the rest of the nation is. (End of excerpt)

[atman]

And, just like that, Freedom seems to have become the new word for Segregation...

(The bolded text, in the article below, is my own emphasis)

_________________________________________________________________



19 Black families purchase 96 acres of land to create a 'safe haven' for Black people (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/good-news/19-black-families-purchase-96-acres-of-land-to-create-a-safe-haven-for-black-people/ar-BB18Gu1Q)
by Kamilah Newton and Marquise Francis - September 3, 2020


In the face of a pandemic that has hit Black Americans harder than almost any other group, while the nation continues to confront the toxic legacy of slavery and Jim Crow, two Georgia women have come together to build a community that will be a place free of oppression, “a tight-knit community for our people to just come and breathe.”

They are calling it Freedom, Georgia, and draw their inspiration from Wakanda, the fictional comic-book country that was the setting for the movie “Black Panther.”

Ashley Scott, a realtor from Stonecrest, Ga., who was driven to seek therapy by her reaction to the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery, a young Black man jogging in a white neighborhood, said that after several sessions she realized that her problem was 400 years of racial oppression and trauma dating back to the establishment of slavery in North America.

“We are dealing with systemic racism,” she wrote in an op-ed for Blavity last month. “We are dealing with deep-rooted issues that will require more than protesting in the streets.”

With her friend Renee Walters, an entrepreneur and investor, she founded the Freedom Georgia Initiative, a group of 19 Black families who collectively purchased 96.71 acres of rural land in Toomsboro, a town of a few hundred people in central Georgia, with the intention of developing a self-contained Black community. The space will have small homes for vacation use and will host weddings, retreats and recreational functions, and may eventually evolve into an incorporated, self-sustaining community.

“It’s now time for us to get our friends and family together and build for ourselves,” said Walters, who serves as the president of the organization, in an interview with Yahoo News. “That's the only way we’ll be safe. And that’s the only way that this will work. We have to start bringing each other together.”

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB18GK5N.img?h=360&w=640&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=160&y=268

Full article (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/good-news/19-black-families-purchase-96-acres-of-land-to-create-a-safe-haven-for-black-people/ar-BB18Gu1Q)

[Mike]

I'm glad they've done that. I wish them well! It looks like a fun adventure actually.

But what they're going to discover, in the not too distant future, is that all the issues that plagued them before will still plague them there, in Freedom Georgia...and it will be quite the revelation.

[atman]

Is America racist? (5 min.)

"Is America racist? Is it -- as President Barack Obama said -- "part of our DNA"? Author and talk-show host Larry Elder examines America's legacy of racism, whether it's one we can ever escape, and in the process offers a different way of looking at things like Ferguson, crime, police and racial profiling."

ThRb9x-RieI


Transcript of opening lines:

Is racism still a major problem in Ame­­rica­? President Barack Obama certainly thinks so. He said that racism is “in our DNA.” Really? If racism is in our DNA, doesn’t that mean it's immutable, unchangeable?

But America has changed -- and dramatically so. In 1960, 60% of Americans said they would never vote for a black president. Almost 50 years later, the black man who said racism is in America’s DNA was elected president, and four years later re-elected. That’s only the most obvious example of racial progress. There are many others.

[atman]

https://www.conservativedailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pete_carroll-karen_Garrison-620x449.jpg

As a commentary to this cartoon of his, Ben Garrison has written (https://grrrgraphics.com/pete-karen-and-nfl-pro-test-football/):




NFL GET WOKE GO BROKE

In a rambling display of virtue signaling, Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll complained whites weren’t listening to blacks. The lecturing ‘Karen’ then blathered on about how white folks needed to learn ‘real history’ and that slavery has never gone away. Well, Pete…we do know that over 600,000 mostly white lives were extinguished during the Civil War that ended slavery, but apparently that bit of stark history wasn’t real enough for you.

The politicization of professional sports in America is just part of the communists’ game plan. The Bolshevik Democrats are using the racial divide during an election year to usher in their figurehead, Biden. If elected, the socialists will again be on offense. They will drive to further destroy our Republic and our freedom. Coach Carroll can’t see this because he’s been brainwashed by the leftist media and the systemic political correctness that has long been embedded in Seattle. It’s one of America’s bluest cities.

[Gemma13]

https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/jw-investigates-university-retaliation/?utm_source=deployer&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=tipsheet&utm_term=members&utm_content=20200921201103
Sept 16, 2020

Judicial Watch and Legal Insurrection Investigate University Retaliation against Professor Who Questioned ‘Systemic Racism’



https://www.thecollegefix.com/black-privilege-is-real-professor-under-fire-protest-hits-his-home-students-demand-he-be-fired/
June 18, 2020

Black privilege is real’ prof under fire: protest hits his home, students demand he be fired

Charles Negy, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Central Florida who tweeted about “black privilege,” is facing an aggressive campaign to get him terminated from his job after a few of his tweets were deemed racist by students and administrators.

He now also faces allegations of classroom discrimination.

The outrage caused by his tweets in early June led to the hashtag “#UCFfirehim” to trend and made national headlines. A petition demanding he be fired has more than 30,000 signatures.

A protest Saturday in front of his home drew carfuls of students and prompted police protection, according to the professor.

“The cars drove by with a megaphone shouting ‘Black Lives Matter’ and ‘Negy must resign’ while blowing their horns nonstop,” Negy told The College Fix in an email Monday. “That went [on] for 30 minutes. That’s not ‘protesting.’ That’s bullying, harassment, and intimidation. That occurred after they had spent three hours on foot at the entrance of my neighborhood.”
...
Negy has taught at the University of Central Florida for 22 years. He earned tenure in 2001. He is author of the recent book: “White Shaming: Bullying Based on Prejudice, Virtue-signaling, and Ignorance.”
...
In defense of his tweets, Negy said he teaches a cross-cultural psychology class that examines some of the questions he asked.
...
“Most of what I cover (in the course) is ‘neutral,’ but I do reserve a section at the end of each group where I address challenges or problems that disproportionately affect the group being discussed,” Negy said. “No matter how gentle I try to address some of those challenges, people from all groups, including Whites, occasionally are offended. But the purpose of a university is to explore and debate ideas–even ideas that make some people uncomfortable; even ideas that some people find offensive.”
...

[Gemma13]

Wish everyone sitting in broad stroke judgement of police officers could stand up and do this challenge.

@8:15 Activist Jarrett Maupin accepts an invitation to walk a mile in police officers shoes and now "gets" the complexity of these situations.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTrYRCSFhAs