Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

[East Sun]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

[meeradas]

We'll find out in due time. Guaranteed.

[Bill Ryan]

Well, once one's been regressed a few times to re-experience some of one's past lives, there's absolutely no doubt (for oneself) that these are real.

But because the experience is subjective, it's unprovable. I had eggs for breakfast this morning. I know because I remember it clearly. There's no doubt. But I can't prove it.... no-one else was around, and I didn't record it on video. :)

So if past lives are real, then of course that's not my own current body. What it has to be is that part of us that also remembers things, but which is non-physical.

QED — for me, personally. I have absolutely not a molecule of doubt. But everyone has to discover this for themselves, if they can or want to. And in the end, as meeradas says, it'll be self-evident.

[Wind]

There's only plenty of anecdotal evidence, but that of course wouldn't do well under scientific scrutiny.

There's not only beliefs, but inner knowledge and experiences which people have. It's safe to say that we don't have a soul, because we indeed are souls or spirits having these earthly experiences in this dimension, in these bodies made of flesh and matter. What is matter anyways? It's energy merely condensed to a slow vibration and the first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same and the world of form, or maya (illusion) is always subject to decay and entropy.

Until the apertures of modern science advance far enough, we can't really "prove" or disprove the existence of God and soul with human-made machinery. What would be the benefit of faith then?

I used to be a believer, but once you attain some kind of direct contact with the truth you just know what's true and what's not. I think that's up to each invidual to experience it themselves and everyone is exactly where they are meant to be in terms of their development, everyone is on their own level of consciousness.

Everything is consciousness and if it wasn't then we wouldn't be here to discuss it. The proof is in the pudding.

[Gwin Ru]

Memories... they shouldn't be "there" any longer... yet about anyone can recall them, whether this morning's breakfast or some ancient past life... as recorded by "something."

Then there is that conundrum: who/what is looking at these recordings?

Personally, I have a lot of troubles imagining a brain looking at itself... and in the case of past lives, that brain is long dead and decomposed which brings us to that other conundrum of NDEs experienced by brain-dead "people": their body just quit recording and functioning at any level, yet, there is "something" recording a perception of their dead body as seen from some corner of the ceiling before venturing towards some light and being told to "Go back!"... so, "what" is being told to go back?... when their body lies lifeless on some operating table. Then, "what" brings that body back to life when they return to "it?"

[TomKat]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

I'm not so sure everyone has an immortal spirit. Those who do, know it. Those who don't, don't believe in such a thing.

I think the human body can assemble a kind of corporate consciousness out of miscellaneous astral patterns and thoughtforms. The corporate consciousness that made up the "individual" dissolves after death, unless a God spark "catches fire" during the lifetime to give permanence to the personality.

I'm not sure I believe in a "higher self," though. I like what Brad Steiger said, something like: 'Joe will continue to be Joe forever, unless he reincarnates. Then he will continue to be that other person forever, unless he reincarnates.' That jibes with what I've deduced from reincarnating pets.

[RunningDeer]

Once I was doing a single Tai Chi movement with a group. It was a form of meditation. The front wall had a mirror from ceiling to floor. I saw myself in the mirror with my eyes closed and then I watched them slowly open all while my eyes were still closed. And that’s when I saw blue light that surrounded my body.


http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/red-line.gif

When I do Tai Chi and at other times as well, I feel and see what I call the spirit body. Sometimes it extents far, other times it’s only 4-5 inches away. When I’m on my walks I intentionally extent outward to exchange energies and talks with the flora and fauna.


http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/red-line.gif

Years ago, I ran into an old coffee buddy that I had lost touch with. He pulled the door open the same time I went to push on it. He was never at a loss for words but this time he was startled and looked above me. He explained that he saw light around me. It wasn’t typical for him to speak of such things. He was a brilliant thinker. All intellect.

Shortly after our encounter I learned of his death. He went quick. I surmised that he got a chance to use inner vision before his passing. And for me? That encounter was one more confirmation of how we are more.

PS I don't spend a lot of time delineating between soul vs spirit. The experiences are plenty enough for me. [most days]

♡

[O Donna]

I have discovered/ observed that concepts/ ideas of spirit, soul, psyche, self etc. can be tripping points in their own right.

Without absolute proof of this it is thus an opinion/ sense and seems to operate this way in varying degrees by design.


https://cdn.lifehack.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/The-universe-is-not-made-of-atoms.-It-is-made-of-tiny-stories..jpg.

[NX.P]

Child prodigies.

[Justjane]

I had a friend coming over for dinner yesterday at 4.30pm. At 4pm whilst we were reading a story together, my 2 year old turned to me and said ‘Brett’s just having a shower and then he’s coming over’. Turns out that was exactly what Brett was doing. I don’t think my kid could have told me that unless he was connected to something. As Bill said, until we’ve had those experiences for ourselves it is impossible to know, and give their subjective nature we might never know what it’s like for anyone else, but moments present themselves to us all.

[Catsquotl]

I believe there is soul. I just don't think it has anything to do with me or you.
That said I believe all stories/lives are known with all it's intricasies/ It is possible to tap into those stories on an experiental level, which would make them indistinqueshable from your experience hence the feeling it happened to you.

Other than that I am quite happy to let the mystery stay mysterious.

[shaberon]

I'm not so sure everyone has an immortal spirit. Those who do, know it. Those who don't, don't believe in such a thing.

I think the human body can assemble a kind of corporate consciousness out of miscellaneous astral patterns and thoughtforms. The corporate consciousness that made up the "individual" dissolves after death, unless a God spark "catches fire" during the lifetime to give permanence to the personality.


I would say it is something like this, that the spectrum of people includes ones like animals, which, in a mental interpretation, is equal to those believing in sensory information. So a human is not necessarily ensouled.

I do not live in those states, but, in something else, for which the only kind of proof is personal experience.

In terms of whether I can negotiate someone's skepticism or logic puzzle to refute it, no, I do not really try to interface with those questions. I would say there is a moral value in what I am doing, and ask where is the moral value in attempting to deny it.

[greybeard]

Soul & Spirit are just words definitions of what is.
No proof or definition is needed to know I exist.
If you believe in non duality then there is only one "without a second."

The usual metephor -- all waves are water -- all of the Divine ocean.

I dont need anything exterior to know "I am"
Chris

[Constance]

Nearly all the human beings that I have had the pleasure of being with have had one such experience or another. Experiences such as intuitions, psychic knowings, mind-readings, out-of-body experiences, divine interventions etc. :flower:

There is no doubt or question or judgement in my heart and mind about the existence of the soul. I've had many personal experiences to show me that the soul exists with human beings and animals alike.

Here's one incredible experience between Anna Breytenbach and a black panther.

gvwHHMEDdT0

Rupert Sheldrake has done some fascinating work in the field of intuitions - working with humans and animals.

For those who haven't already seen this, you can hear Rupert talk about an experiment he did from 41.17 onwards here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDGVO5E1u3A), however, the entire video presentation is marvellous and well worth listening to.

wDGVO5E1u3A


Here is the excerpt from his presentation - Rupert Sheldrake and Pam Smart's research experiment with Jaytee the dog. You will need to look at the subtitles if you don't speak german :happy dog:

aA5wAm2c01w

For more on Sheldrakes experiments with telepathy, you can visit his website here (https://www.sheldrake.org/research/animal-powers/a-dog-that-seems-to-know-when-his-owner-is-coming-home-videotaped-experiments-and-observations).

[meeradas]

The (human) mind is absolutely... fascinating.

There is no proof that it - the mind - exists.

[scotslad]

everyone's debating whether we have a soul or a spirit...

yet, we all appear to agree that we have a body.

If "my body" belongs to me and the one I've chosen to incarnate in (in this lifetime) who am I?

Some would say our perception and awareness is limited by our physical being (and sense).

Yet we are much more than that but are continually fooled, told and directed via media, religion, education and governments that we are not.

Soul / spirit /energy = we are covered by the skin suit that we chose to wear :)

Wot u reckon...?

[palehorse]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

Hi,

I know you do not want any religion as you stated, but I myself do not consider Buddhism as a religion, but a science of the mind, then I will post here what is taught by this unique original (or at least very close to the original teachings) Theravada Bhuddism in Thailand.

If you are interested to know more in details about the non existence of a soul, here is the full talks > https://www.suanmokkh.org/retreat_talks/130 (Santikaro is an American ex-monk he is the direct disciple of Buddhadasa)

"Therefore we ought to live with the awareness or the sensitivity that there is
nothing which is an attā, an atman, a self or a soul. We’re alive but can’t find any
of these selves or souls around." Buddhadasa Bhiku (translation from Pali)

There is a transcript in the page if you prefer to read. It is a short e-book will not take more than 10 minutes of your time.

Since around 2005 I started to ask the same questions as you, then I found Buddhism that answered lots of these questions, for my perception of the world, everything is in the mind or heart you can call as you wish, all things happen in the mind and all things are impermanent without exception. The Universe are bits of information, until I have enough evidences, there is no soul or self in my perception of life.

Remarks: This place/monastery is not the same as the others in Thailand, I myself had been in hundreds of different places here, Suanmokkabalarama is an unique forest monastery located in Chaya Surat Tani (South Thailand) and they teach the very heart of Buddhism, which is something that this country forgot long time ago.

[norman]

East Sun, for you, what would be proof ?

I, personally, find it harder to define what the proof would be than to move away from the place where that question is important.

The strange thing is, when I do move away from that spot, I have something much better than proof. I have something that no longer needs prooving.

[scotslad]

digressing slightly - "memory" - do you think its stored in the head/skull/brain

or do we (heart and brain) act as a modem and connect to the akashic record to store and recall our memories via the ether?

Is our physical existance a playground and learning area for us to manage our emotions and interaction with a 3d reality which we again upload to akashic records to help record our memories and experiences to aid future "lives" and physical experiences?

[Catsquotl]

everyone's debating whether we have a soul or a spirit...

yet, we all appear to agree that we have a body.

If "my body" belongs to me and the one I've chosen to incarnate in (in this lifetime) who am I?

Some would say our perception and awareness is limited by our physical being (and sense).

Yet we are much more than that but are continually fooled, told and directed via media, religion, education and governments that we are not.

Soul / spirit /energy = we are covered by the skin suit that we chose to wear :)

Wot u reckon...?

Many a vipassana practitioner who experienced some insights would argue that the body does not contain an I, even that mind is a process of continuous origination and consequence. What exactly I or Self is, is rather non-existent experientally at such levels of concentration.

[ExomatrixTV]

What is consciousness really? ... Other level of awareness that is beyond the (5 senses) conditioning!

I have met this man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_van_Lommel) because I had a Near Death Experience (+O.B.E.) when I was 4½ years old! (Car Accident).

Consciousness and Near-Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel:
RkF4KzWTrKA
Remembering Past Lives?
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Advice to Parents of Children who are Spontaneously Recalling Past Life (https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/resources/advice-to-parents-of-children-who-are-spontaneously-recalling-past-life-memories/) Memories

There are 1000s of videos about very young children remembering very detailed past life experiences some of them showing pre-knowledge of certain places AND people living there!

1 of many examples:
T2ty-TdWKM0
This Life, Past Life (A Documentary by Dr. Keith Parsons~Past Lives, Reincarnation):
S2Aty9BbEF8
Do you know that the BBC made several in-depth quality documentaries on this topic? Have you studied them all? (most do not).

Here an example I saw on BBC:
2Wh0OsVtdeE
Cheers.
John

[Brigantia]

digressing slightly - "memory" - do you think its stored in the head/skull/brain

or do we (heart and brain) act as a modem and connect to the akashic record to store and recall our memories via the ether?

Is our physical existance a playground and learning area for us to manage our emotions and interaction with a 3d reality which we again upload to akashic records to help record our memories and experiences to aid future "lives" and physical experiences?

There are interesting accounts from people who have had transplants and find they have donor traits; maybe memory is stored in all the body's cells rather than in the brain as we were always taught. Here are a few stories of this. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237998/Heart-transplant-patient-gets-craving-food-eaten-organ-donor.html)

This is a fascinating question that started this thread, with fascinating replies. It's a highly subjective topic that depends on personal experiences; I have had past life memories too that helped me to make sense of how I could evolve in this life. I do believe that my grandmother was around me just after she died, I was going through a rough time and her presence was a comfort. One vivid occurrence was that I tried to remember the names of her 3 dogs she had in the 1970s, struggling to remember the third and I heard her voice as clear as a bell - "It was Wendy"!

My beloved cat died a few months ago and a few days after I went to yoga. At the end, in savasana, he appeared to me and said, "there is no separation, only love". He also appeared at the next yoga session which was the last one I've been to thanks to covid - no message this time, just saying hi. The thing that struck me was that his spirit form had two ears - he was missing one ear from his physical body due to cruelty when he was a kitten. He's obviously whole again.

[Brigantia]

Do you know that the BBC made several in-depth quality documentaries on this topic? Have you studied them all? (most do not).

Cheers.
John

Thanks for posting these John, I probably watched them first time around and I'm sure they're worth watching again. The BBC used to make some fascinating documentaries on the paranormal, sadly no longer, and there was always a good creepy ghost story at Christmas. The Signalman is a classic. One that I found recently is from a series called Leap in the Dark, the episode is called The Living Grave and aired in 1980. I was delighted to find this as I watched it when it aired and it always stuck in my mind.

It's a dramatisation of a series of regressions by Joe Keeton and the subject matter, a girl called Kitty, is believed to relate to Jay's Grave on Dartmoor, near Manaton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9-ZWhwvnQY

[TomKat]

Child prodigies.

The 4-year old son of a friend wanted a ride in my car, around the block. I was thinking about reincarnation and he said "I used to be a policeman." And guess what he grew up to become?

The 6-year old nephew of a friend told his parents he's a rock-n-roller and wanted a guitar. He's taking lessons and plays all the time. Might be famous someday :-)

[Jake]

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?



I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions.



Hmm. Hoping that someone Spiritually advanced coming to save us is the failure of ALL religions, no?

I've had more fully conscious OBEs that I have, literally, lost count. (I've documented several hundred.)

My friend, I am not a body. (I HAVE a body)

I Am invisible. My body is my vehicle. I can't tell you about God, or, religions, but I can tell you that you are more than a bipedal human body.

Think of us as caterpillars.. We surround ourselves with a protective cocoon. (Such is life) Then we struggle to shed the cocoon. It's in that struggle that we strengthen our wings. If someone comes along and pulls off our cocoon for us, then we never endure the struggle,, and we never fly. We never know what wings are for.

You ARE a Spiritually advanced person. (Or you wouldn't be here...)

I wouldn't prove it to you if I could. The journey is too great.

Cheers. Jake

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

If one wants to approach the question from the physical rather than the metaphysical, you could say that if you are satisfied your mind truly exists, then something of your beingness beyond the body must also exist. It's because everything that exists (in the Universe) is energy, so the mind must be a form of energy, consciousness must be a form of energy, even a thought must be a form of energy. And energy cannot be destroyed (it can only change form).

When the body dies it decomposes. It may cease to be whole anymore, but its constituent parts remain. They just changed form, nothing was actually destroyed, not one atom. This must mean that when the body dies the consciousness within it isn't destroyed either, it cannot be so if it is energy which it must be - it too just changes form. It *goes* somewhere; it becomes something else. This should be ample proof for the physical thinker that there is more to existence than physicality and physical body parts. "I think, therefore I am". Where consciousness = energy, and energy always persists, so you always persist. "I think now, therefore I think always" (in one form or another). This is the (eternal) soul.

[Justplain]

The most incredible thing is awareness itself.

It's understandable that someone wants proof of the soul. However, I have heard very scientific people say that 'there is no objective way to prove that you exist'. You can only verify that you exist from within your own consciousness because everything you might use to prove it requires your personal perception, which is subjective.

Regarding the existence of the soul, I intuit that it exists and have had enough weird experiences to feel that that intuition is correct. In addition, NDEs and past life recalls are enough evidence for me.

Awareness, and in particular self-awareness, is the outstanding feature of our existence, and experience. It is what gives our existence, and all of reality, its purpose and meaning.

[ZenBaller]

To understand and "answer" existential questions, a total upgrade of our current function as humans is needed.

Humans are overusing their mental ability: the calculative mind, for pretty much everything. We are so bombarded from external influences to rationalize everything superficially to the point that it has become our prison.

The mind is simply incapable to answer existential questions, because its function is divisive and analytic instead of unifying. How can you understand holistic notions like the Whole, God, Life etc., when you are using a tool that breaks down stuff instead of going bigger, to put it simply? It is impossible. It's like using your heart to solve a math problem.

So, the answer is this. You need your Heart to see God and your soul. Your mind cannot do it. By Heart, I don't mean emotion but intuition, the ability that we all have to know things inside without the need for mental proof.

It has atrophied through the eons because the mind always jumps in and asks questions, unsatisfied. Your mind is also rejecting this post.

As the quote says, in Zen you don't find answers, you lose the questions. What remains is the truth.

[syrwong]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

[Open Minded Dude]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

You are right. We do not have a soul.

We are not a body that has a soul.

I completely agree.

Fun fact is:

We ARE a soul / consciousness / awareness. It is what you ARE, not what you have.

So we ARE a soul that HAS a body (temporarily). Not the other way round like we are told by some religions. That is brainwash and it is the main problem of our prevailing materialist society. Unfortunately.

Finding out about this can be challenging especially if you don't know it by intuition or 'knowingness' (as I call it, it is not the same as knowledge which is more leftbrained and fact/data-driven).

There is lots of things you can do to learn this for yourself (e.g. learn OBEs / astral projection to gather proof, I did! and it works if you stay patient, meditation, etc.). Read some good books about parapsychology (Dean Radin's for example). Don't believe the mindless materialist skeptics that abound everywhere, but imv it is as harmful to believe the religions that still try to tell you the twisted version (that you HAVE a soul, no you don't HAVE a soul!).

[RunningDeer]

(repost)
I live in a complex on a farm where the landlady and her husband raise horses, chickens and tend to their organic garden (among other things). Barbara, one of my neighbors, shared in the chores in trade for a place for her horses.

Barbara had a dog named, Mikie. As part of his training, she’d walk him around the circle driveway, and also he’d accompanied her with the chores like empty trash and care for the horses. Always the same trot from both of them, and same hand positions with the leash.

This particular morning, I didn't know Mikie had passed the evening before. Barbara emptied the trash and came around the circle. Only this time, she walked with an invisible leash, the same hand positions as usual. And Mikie? He trotted right by her side only in his light-body. I blinked a couple of times, still in disbelief.

That afternoon, Barbara dug a deep hole with the farm equipment next to the horse fence. Then she walked the circle alone with a wrapped up bundle. She lowered herself into the knee deep hole, and gently laid her Mikie to rest.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

The proof ultimately is your intuition. Clear your mind with meditation or some other technique.

Release old belief structures.

I suspect:
We all are extensions of Source energy, on Prime Creator's eternal journey of creation and self discovery.
We are apertures to the universe, exploring and observing itself.
We are ghosts wearing meatsuits, riding a fast moving rock hurtling through space.
Love is the glue that holds it all together.


We are souls having a human experience.

[ExomatrixTV]

Consciousness is Not a Computation (Roger Penrose):
hXgqik6HXc0

[East Sun]

East Sun, for you, what would be proof ?

I, personally, find it harder to define what the proof would be than to move away from the place where that question is important.

The strange thing is, when I do move away from that spot, I have something much better than proof. I have something that no longer needs prooving.

What would be proof?

I don't think there can be proof but I hope someone proves me wrong.

[East Sun]

Thanks everyone for all those great replies.

Food for thought, definitely.

[greybeard]

East Sun, for you, what would be proof ?

I, personally, find it harder to define what the proof would be than to move away from the place where that question is important.

The strange thing is, when I do move away from that spot, I have something much better than proof. I have something that no longer needs prooving.

What would be proof?

I don't think there can be proof but I hope someone proves me wrong.

You are the proof.
The awareness that sees everything without comment --silent awareness is what you are --Soul Spirit -- the names dont matter.
Chris

[pyrangello]

Had to put to sleep 3 Labrador retrievers this past year. 2 were 16 years old and 1 - 12 years old. The 12 year old had lung cancer. The one 16 year old named Rylee Rylee O'rylee was a white lab. Smart, cunning, would push your buttons everyday. One day after she passed I was sitting in front of the wood stove in the house. I had a little memorial set up for all 3 dogs behind the couch I was sitting in . There was a photo of rylee sitting on that memorial . All of a sudden that picture of rylee flew over my head and landed in my lap. No windows were open , now way for a breeze. Just her spirit letting me know she is around. She still is from time to time too.

About 5 years ago a buddy of mine's wife had to do in for open heart surgery, she was scared to death. I called on my angels to lend a hand. After my buddies wife came to after the surgery she told me that there were 2 angels in human appearance that were in her room for days until she felt better. She said 1 of the angels had a connection to me . But once she started feeling better she told the angels its time to go help others that are in worse shape as they did.

About 7 years ago an old grilfriend of mine passed away at 52. She was awake and always searching like all of us here. After she passed About a week later I was laying in bed looking at the bookcase and noticed a page fringed which I thought was from the dog chewing on it. I grabbed the book and it was a book from her, inside the book was a letter I had never read. It was a nice letter. Then 2 days later I saw my girlfriend had been on facebook with her pic but no time was allocated on the placement, that happened twice that day. Then the following night I was awaken in my sleep, my past girlfriend came to me . I was sitting in a bookstore at a table. She saw me thru the window and walked inside , never said a word to me and just gave me a smile and 1 kiss. At that moment I felt her entire peace and love run thru me. Its really hard to describe. But I knew she was alright. But it wasn't a dream and I could feel her validation of importance at that very moment and I knew she truly was at peace with herself.

10 years ago a friend of mine who is very connected text me and said do I have a grandmother with the first letter M in her name. I said yes , it was my Grandma Mary.s he text me back and said no I'm seeing Marie, I said it was Mary on her drivers license. She was still adamant it was Marie she was seeing. So I said ok what does she want, My friend text me back and said that your grandmother wants you to know she loves me and is always around me. I loved hanging out with my grandmother, she was so cool. So i text back and said OK thank you. Next day I called my mom in florida, asked her if my grandma mary's name was Marie? My mom told me yes her name was Marie when she lived in Poland as a child !!! I had no knowledge of that up until then. :)

[ExomatrixTV]

Why is Conciousness Important? | Rupert Sheldrake 2020:
Og6HaH38Udc
How Science Explains Spirituality | Rupert Sheldrake 2020:
QSy-GDfHhzg
Documentary: Seven Experiments that could Change the World:
L0nXJpTJx-A

[RunningDeer]

I posted this on Ken's thread: Sublime and/or Spiritual Experiences of the Natural World.. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?105508-Sublime-and-or-Spiritual-Experiences-of-the-Natural-World..)


http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/red-line.gif

In 2006, we lost sibling #8, our sister, Rebecca.

Several years later, another sister, Marie and I were coming back from a weekend party at our cousins' place. I was prompted by Rebecca to share what I felt. I told Marie that Rebecca was with us the whole weekend. She agreed, but it was more out of courtesy.

I added, “She’s in the back seat.”

Then out of the blue silly putty popped in my head. Rebecca kept prodding me to pass along the message.

“She's insisting that I ask you about silly putty.”

Marie is holding back tears while she reaches into the console and pulls out a silly putty egg. Unbeknownst to me, Rebecca gave it to her the year before her passing. It was a reminder for Marie to play.


https://i.imgur.com/QJdeuHo.jpg
♡

[DeDukshyn]

The (human) mind is absolutely... fascinating.

There is no proof that it - the mind - exists.

Likewise, there is no proof that love exists. Yet we all know it exists, without requiring proof.

[rgray222]

American philosopher William James knew when his “second death” was going to happen.

He felt premonitions of becoming too small for his psychological quarters.
“I feel myself growing out of myself in a certain fashion. My adopted characteristics are becoming too small and cramped to contain my new growth and development, and I will move on most certainly to larger psychological quarters. It is not only the physical body we outlive, but the psychological house we have chosen. First, after death we add new rooms and suites to accommodate our greater experience, but it is soon obvious that the entire structure has had its day. We must move out of it completely.”

Maybe we have been looking at our experience on earth entirely wrong. Could it be possible that we have simply outlived the size of our soul's spiritual home, our body? It may be full and time to move on to new quarters.

Here is a great video which "kinda" moves in that same direction.

W8fAXSGwJhE

Here is an article I found some years ago:

Russian scientist photographs the soul leaving the body at death

You can read the full story here: http://www.esotericonline.net/profiles/blogs/russian-scientist-photographs-the-soul-leaving-the-body-at-death

[TraineeHuman]

To start with, East Sun, we need some kind of definition of what you mean by "a soul" or "a spirit" that you might conceivably have. Whenever while you're sleeping at night you have a dream, in that dream you see and hear and touch various things. But you don't use your physical eyes or ears or your fingers to do any such seeing, hearing and touching. Part of my suggested definition of 'your soul" is that it's invariably whatever creates the "3D movie" and presents it to your conscious while you're sleeping. If you study some of the serious literature on dream analysis, or even just accurately writing down what's in your own dreams, you'll find that most dreams (not the nightmares, which arise out of physical sickness) are symbol-laden messages coming from a deeper part of your consciousness. And (If you can learn to translate from the intuition's language) that they contain very wise insights and warnings and deep observations regarding an issue and an area in your life that you've been avoiding, and not fully facing, in the last two days. Also, that they are presented from a point of observation that lies beyond all suffering, though not denying or failing to face the reality of any emotional or other suffering you have been undergoing in your waking life, consciously or subconsciously. So, then, the soul lies beyond all emotional suffering. It's essentially free from all suffering.

You may be inclined to consider your dreams to be mainly fantasy, or mere imagination. Hence, for you, the soul woudl be a fantasy too. However, all the evidence from accurate dream reading and accurate dream analysis shows that the soul's advice is always very wise, and sometimes its insights are also based on extraordinary and inexplicable but very accurate reading of the minds of others involved in the issue. I would argue that this provides solid evidence that the soul is real after all -- or that it's at least something you created, perhaps unknowingly, that's very much wiser and more emotionally stable than you ordinarily are. Unlike you, it's apparently totally free, of suffering at least.

Of course, if you want to say that your notion that you have a mind is an illusion, (presumably on the grounds that the mind is supposedly just an epiphenomenon of your biological processes and reactions) then maybe you can write off the soul as an illusion too. But in that case, everything there is will have to be an illusion. (But how would "you" ever know?)

[pyrangello]

One of my buddies who I use to ride motorcycles with in alabama , his name was jack. He was telling me one time he was riding his bike with another guy on a stretch of highway that had little light. He said his buddy was riding in front of him and for whatever reason next thing he knew his buddy and his bike were sliding in a circular motion right in front of him. Jack said he couldn't stop and just as he was about to crash into his buddy, the next thing he remembers is he was standing on the side of the road with his kickstand down next to his bike. It was really dark and jack yelled out his buddies name . His buddy was laying in the road with his bike still, So jack helped him up and they got his bike rolled off the side of the road too. Jack asked his buddy what happened and as the 2 were trying to figure out what had transpired and how jack got to where he was never even hitting his buddy. They both looked over across the road at a woman in a white dress with a dog. Jack said she was illuminating of light. She asked if they were both ok? And they replied yes. Jack said the woman turned around and disappeared with her dog. Like just vanished. Jack told me that event changed his life forever.

[ExomatrixTV]

This Life, Next Life (A Documentary by Dr. Keith Parsons~Life After Death):
Y5RpbveVC_4

[RunningDeer]

This Life, Next Life (A Documentary by Dr. Keith Parsons~Life After Death):

Y5RpbveVC_4
Summary:

June 20, 2015

This documentary by Dr. Keith Parsons offers empirical evidence for the Afterlife. A sequel, 'This Life, Past Life' is now also available on Youtube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Aty9BbEF8) (also added below)




This video documentary, 'This Life, Next Life', covers the Cross Correspondences, the Scole Experiment, drop-in communicators, EVP, the mediumship of Mrs. Leonora Piper, together with a discussion of brain and mind. Are they the same or different? Interviews with Prof. David Fontana & Prof. Archie Roy, (former presidents of the SPR); Victor Zammit, former Australian attorney; Robin Foy, the Scole Group leader; Dr. Anabela Cardoso, Editor of the ITC Journal; Prof. Bruce Greyson of the University of Virginia; and Dr. Peter Fenwick – a consultant neuro-physiologist.

Link to Books on Amazon: Lucky James? (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22Keith+Parsons%22+%22lucky+James%3F%22&i=stripbooks&rh=n%3A283155&ref=nb_sb_noss), by Keith Parsons


http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/red-line.gif


This Life, Past Life (A Documentary by Dr. Keith Parsons~Past Lives, Reincarnation)




In 'This Life, Past Life' Dr. Keith Parsons examines the evidence for past lives and reincarnation. Specifically we look at three 'hypnosis' cases with veridical evidence. This indicates they cannot be based simply on fantasy. He also examines the spontaneous past life memories of small children, with reference to the work of the late Professor Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia, and in particular to a BBC documentary on his work made in 1992.


S2Aty9BbEF8

[silvanelf]

The most incredible thing is awareness itself.

Descartes used the phrase:


"I think, therefore I am."
Along a similar line of reasoning, I like the argument:


"I think, therefore I am a soul."
In my view even better:


"I am aware, therefore I am a soul."

[Star Tsar]

What of the premise a "soul" is earned through the trial & tribulations ones lifetime? Rather than something endowed @ birth??

_0hsGJ-GKJA

Is the soul the same as the spirit?

[Catsquotl]

I think, self.
Then look.. No self, No soul.

An endless stream of actions and reaction appearing and disappearing according to there there nature.
Anything that seems stable is gone from one moment to the next. Illusions of stability appear desirable.

Awareness is a funny thing. as soon as as you see it. It is no longer aware of what it was aware of before. Just a memory remains..

[Bill Ryan]

Spirituality, Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?It might be useful to rephrase the question in the thread title. :)

Maybe it should be: ARE we a spirit? ARE we a soul?

Always remember: your body is not you. :sun:

[Ernie Nemeth]

This question is part of the control of the human narrative. We think that something real must be substantial and subject to the scientific method. This is a false dictum.

The scientific method, as we experience it today, has a premise that has been lost in the mists of time. That premise is very simple and very much mistaken: science can prove the non-existence of god. That premise has been proven by the remarkable progress of scientific technology, but it has come at a steep price. The price of our technological world is the incomplete understanding of the physical world. Our theories and models stop short of truth, stymied because of the premise of science itself.

The universe is not driven by particle interactions, including its forces. Yet science stubbornly maintains otherwise regardless of the mounting evidence against it. There is a reason for this: because God does exist and the science of the material world was built on a faulty tenet. There is a reason for all of this too.

We are in a war and always were. It is a very real battle between good and evil. It is a battle not only for your mind but also for your soul. The best way to win your soul is to prove to you that you are but the sum of your parts.

But parts of the whole do not make the whole because the parts not seen and unknown are not included.

The scientific method is incomplete. That fact is occulted by the fantastic trinkets our technology has made in our name. Yet we are empty for that same reason: trinkets do not satisfy and do not explain the reason we are here - or even the rules of the game.

Do not be duped. The proof of the soul is within, it cannot be separated out of the life lived. It is part and the whole of you. You cannot be without it. But do not look for it without for you will be deceived, and you will regard your will as your own.

You have free will, but only in the means by which you bring the whole to the parts. Only if you work for the Lord, in faith, and in steadfast belief.

What is proof of the soul? Love

[Anka]

Each is fundamental in what we might call a final reality.
The journey of a great positive spiritual goal for those around you and then for you, together with them, is one of the great wonders of life, do not worry that you will go to sleep and you will not wake up, consciousness can not be annihilated .
Never think that you have something to lose, not all seek meaning but those that do, will find it.
Land in the movement of knowing yourself, but do not try to define yourself, because you are the definition.
To look at those around us, they are not an illusion, to look for something other than we already are is like trying to look at ourselves in our own eyes without a mirror.

What purpose do we have to live? It is always worth risking to lose something, we do not have to look for other "parts" of ourselves.
Questions are precious to each of us, while we all seek the blessing of something better, we can instead begin to offer the blessing to others around us and find a soul in anything and everyone.

If your spiritual appetite accumulates intention and intuition along with an infinite amount of good factors and unlimited potential for indulgence, it is a good start in which to stop looking for the soul.
You are in one.
You are incredibly lucky not to lose sight of this, because maybe even while you are wondering, a wonderful spiritual event can happen right inside you, you certainly feel fully that you are part of a spiritual community created even by you in this little second, wouldn't that be cool?
To be able to offer everything in the spirit of the good demanded by an entire human race, often feels good energy in the air ... no need to think "It's just a journey man :)"
It's quite simple and complex when we say we are everything, but more important is to believe that WE ARE.

If the questions come from a suffering, it's really an arc over what is actually the most important, you have to allow yourself to be seen by you and everyone, it seems risky, but you can try because the emotion is right here at at our disposal.

We can choose the most challenging option right now, with which to deal with it in the purest, most authentic, productive way, when you stop in front of a man on the street and say, "Hey man ... you know I love you? "don't be shy, jump over any prejudice and do what you like for the good and FOR OTHERS, it's not easy to take, but it's easy to try.
Diversity can be good in the end, each style brings something new and of course we can talk about it endlessly, this is the fun part, as long as we keep the simple and good side of things for everyone (not counterproductive) is a good chance that we have.
I am just one person who is irrelevant enough to recognize an entire human race as a reflection of what I think and do in charity with all my soul.
Of course, there are always the remaining billions of opinions about this in the souls of other living beings, and we will never comprehend the most beautiful part of us because the truth can be greater than we could count the infinite.

(Note: It's just an opinion that I go along the road in which I failed to say everything and in the message I mean the third person, not anyone in particular)

Peace and love

[RunningDeer]

Is there a definite proof or not.
Bill, I’ve added a quoted post so East Sun will received notification of your feedback. You spelled his name Each Sun and without the semi-colon and numbers (;1364815). Feel free to correct and delete this post. http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/hug-two.gif




Spirituality, Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?It might be useful to rephrase the question in the thread title. :)

Maybe it should be: ARE we a spirit? ARE we a soul?

Always remember: your body is not you. :sun:




From Bill:
Thx for your eagle eyes, Paula — yes, because I quoted the thread title, and not a post, I did that manually, so it was my typo... going too fast. :facepalm: Corrected immediately, with my apologies.

:focus:

[Wind]

Spirituality, Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?It might be useful to rephrase the question in the thread title. :)

Maybe it should be: ARE we a spirit? ARE we a soul?

Always remember: your body is not you. :sun:

"As a person sheds worn-out garments and wears new ones, likewise, at the time of death, the soul casts off its worn-out body and enters a new one." ~ Bhagavad Gita

[East Sun]

What is the definition of Love? There are many, of course. From a religious
perspective it would be love of God. I have never in my life had a real
understanding of what is meant by love. We say it all the time in songs and
poems and fiction.

Perhaps this should be addressed another time in another thread.

[East Sun]

Spirituality, Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?It might be useful to rephrase the question in the thread title. :)

Maybe it should be: ARE we a spirit? ARE we a soul?

Always remember: your body is not you. :sun:

If I ask myself, am I Spirit or am I Soul where will be my proof any
more than asking am I just physical only?

Brings us full circle to my original questions.

And as stated, there can not be definite proof.

I really do acknowledge the previous videos that say a lot for the
existence of Spirit and Soul.

There is definitely something "beyond' our understanding.

[Ernie Nemeth]

If I ask myself, am I Spirit or am I Soul where will be my proof any
more than asking am I just physical only?

Brings us full circle to my original questions.

And as stated, there can not be definite proof.

I really do acknowledge the previous videos that say a lot for the
existence of Spirit and Soul.

There is definitely something "beyond' our understanding.

Merely contemplate your own queries and you will find your answers.

You just expect us to re-enforce what you already believe.

I know you are bigger than that. Accept what you already know.

Prop us up!

We need it more than your need for confirmation....

[Ernie Nemeth]

There is something beyond our singular experience.

It is our connection to the infinite - to our Lord, the Creator of all things.

Let not the world of the physical obscure your vision of the infinite - you are a unique fractal of totality.

Reality cannot be without you. If it were not so you would not be here...

[meeradas]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

[East Sun]

There is something beyond our singular experience.

It is our connection to the infinite - to our Lord, the Creator of all things.

Let not the world of the physical obscure your vision of the infinite - you are a unique fractal of totality.

Reality cannot be without you. If it were not so you would not be here...

I really respect your view.
I have to ask, How do we know that there is indeed a Lord. We don't know what created
existence or what we are or anything whatsoever. We just do not know and we should admit it.

ES

[East Sun]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

[DeDukshyn]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

Well I've left my body body on more than one occasion ... that kinda was enough for me. Maybe I'm fortunate in that regard - I cannot share, nor give you that experience.

[RunningDeer]

It’s a rare kismet when others can help to corroborate. This is an experience of bi-location. I recalled the events and now have a better understanding if/when I maybe bi-locating.


http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/red-line.gif

In the mid-1980’s, I was on my way to meditation that was reschedule on a day I usually attended healing service. I was in conflict but picked the meditation which was one exit away from the healing service.

Still torn by my decision and bewildered, I pulled over, readjusted my seat and stared out the sun roof at the stars. It was 6:50 p.m., a few moments away from my 7:00 p.m. meditation class. I felt disoriented and confused by the indecision.

During the meditation I experienced a split in vision. Where one eye watched a scene that was in black and white while the other was of a past life.

It wasn’t until the following week that I found out the rest of the story. At the healing service, a man asked if I’d been experiencing any troubles lately. He went on to explain he has the ability to see people bi-locate. And that I was there a little before the 7:00 p.m. healing service.

♡

[DeDukshyn]

It’s a rare kismet when others can help to corroborate. This is an experience of bi-location. I recalled the events and now have a better understanding if/when I maybe bi-locating.


http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/red-line.gif

In the mid-1980’s, I was on my way to meditation that was reschedule on a day I usually attended healing service. I was in conflict but picked the meditation which was one exit away from the healing service.

Still torn by my decision and bewildered, I pulled over, readjusted my seat and stared out the sun roof at the stars. It was 6:50 p.m., a few moments away from my 7:00 p.m. meditation class. I felt disoriented and confused by the indecision.

During the meditation I experienced a split in vision. Where one eye watched a scene that was in black and white while the other was of a past life.

It wasn’t until the following week that I found out the rest of the story. At the healing service, a man asked if I’d been experiencing any troubles lately. He went on to explain he has the ability to see people bi-locate. And that I was there a little before the 7:00 p.m. healing service.

♡


Interesting ... I've "bi-timed" before -- I experienced two different times, separated by a year exactly, in the exact same location (my office cubicle and chair). It was weird, and I didn't realize what happened until I experienced it the 2nd time, one year later, then suddenly the first experience (which was weird as hell, and my coworker was there observing me go through it - embarrassing, because I weirded out a bit), made complete sense to me, and revealed what had actually happened.

Mine doesn't help on the soul thing necessarily, but I thought I'd share my (one of a few) weird experience, inspired by yours. :)

[East Sun]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

Well I've left my body body on more than one occasion ... that kinda was enough for me. Maybe I'm fortunate in that regard - I cannot share, nor give you that experience.

It is great that you had those experiences. I never did have an OBE but do not doubt
that anybody did.

All I'm saying is that what we have been told by religions etcetera may not
be in any way what actually is.

[Constance]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

The reason that people will not admit that they do not know is because when we have a direct connection to our true nature, like a near-death experience, or an out-of-body experience, or we bilocate or we have a parallel universe experience, there is direct awareness of the truth that we are universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite, eternal beings. It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.

[RunningDeer]

Interesting ... I've "bi-timed" before -- I experienced two different times, separated by a year exactly, in the exact same location (my office cubicle and chair). It was weird, and I didn't realize what happened until I experienced it the 2nd time, one year later, then suddenly the first experience (which was weird as hell, and my coworker was there observing me go through it - embarrassing, because I weirded out a bit), made complete sense to me, and revealed what had actually happened.

Mine doesn't help on the soul thing necessarily, but I thought I'd share my (one of a few) weird experience, inspired by yours. :)

Thanks for sharing, Mike. I never considered a time difference bi-location. What we call deja vu might be more like your experience. Interesting food for thought.


Mine doesn't help on the soul thing necessarily

It depends on how you want to look at the whole. Knowing there's more through experience helps point to the unknowns. The experiences help us move the goal posts. It quickens the processes/possibilities and opens more doors.

Whether it's called soul or spirit, or what is the difference between them? Experiences are enough for me to understand “this” isn’t the only thing that happens/happening. I’d rather put focus on the doing and/or the paying attention to those surprised gifts of subtleties. And figure out how to sharpen them.

♡

[RunningDeer]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

The reason that people will not admit that they do not know is because when we have a direct connection to our true nature, like a near-death experience, or an out-of-body experience, or we bilocate or we have a parallel universe experience, there is direct awareness of the truth that we are universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite, eternal beings. It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.


It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.
That's it in a nutshell. http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/yes.gif
http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/thank-you-pole.gif Constance.

Sharing experiences helps,
but one needs to be open to the possibilities.
Be the fire-walker.

http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/Healed/fire-walker.jpg

[norman]

I don't think our brain/mind/cerebral think space is all there is to even our '3D' intelligence. We have a full body intelligence that has to be used in balance. Over relying on just one aspect of the whole gets us into all sorts of trouble.

If our mind throws out a question like yours looking for an answer in it's own cerebral terms, and doesn't, for the obvious reason, get one, maybe the lesson to learn ( more than getting it's answer ) is about 'full sentience' self discovery.

Maybe the reason you are so keen with the question is a sign you are really ready now for some holistic self discovery.

[Constance]

Sharing experiences helps, but one needs to be open to the possibilities. Become the fire-walker.

Exactly Paula! Fabulous stuff. When we remain in a constant state of openness, we can experience our true nature. It is inevitable :heart:

[DeDukshyn]

...

All I'm saying is that what we have been told by religions etcetera may not
be in any way what actually is.

Well my experiences have helped, but I have always have had my own views that differed from the religious ideologies. I have allowed my view to be from the various inputs on the subject over time, and using discerning skills to extrapolate most probable outcome. I use a lot of deductive reasoning which, while not perfect, often can get to high probabilities quickly.

So my views are generally my own, but the do align with various elements on the subject.

[Sunny-side-up]

Well, once one's been regressed a few times to re-experience some of one's past lives, there's absolutely no doubt (for oneself) that these are real.

But because the experience is subjective, it's unprovable. I had eggs for breakfast this morning. I know because I remember it clearly. There's no doubt. But I can't prove it.... no-one else was around, and I didn't record it on video. :)

So if past lives are real, then of course that's not my own current body. What it has to be is that part of us that also remembers things, but which is non-physical.

QED — for me, personally. I have absolutely not a molecule of doubt. But everyone has to discover this for themselves, if they can or want to. And in the end, as meeradas says, it'll be self-evident.

I agree Bill, but when one considers is anything real at all?
Are you a program running in or as part of some virtual reality?

Our brains take in input from outside of our body, and then we say that is all as is.
Life is but a dream, and we have many, many dreams

[Cognitive Dissident]

This is a slightly different point from the other comments, which have been great - I would like to highlight one theory which states that the spirit and the soul both exist, but are different things.

The theory is the Binary Soul Doctrine or BSD.

I’m not saying that it is true (my personal opinion is that probably, it is), but it is fascinating and there is a lot of evidence that many cultures, some very ancient, believed in it, without any physical connection between those cultures. Could they all have independently discovered something very important about the nature of spiritual reality?

Bear in mind also that, if this theory is true, it would have been one of the most closely guarded esoteric secrets in the world. Not only the theory itself, but the practical implications for each person. That means in order to learn it you would have to spend 20 years being initiated and trained in some secret society before being considered ready to receive such knowledge. However, as we all know, these are very unique times that we are living in, so you can get this deep spiritual wisdom from a random stranger on the internet…

The basic theory is that the spirit and the soul are two different things. Most people (who are not materialists) believe that they both survive death and they are basically two words referring to the same thing. However, the BSD states that the spirit is pure awareness, but the soul is more like unconscious memories and a deep energetic connection with reality. During incarnation, both the spiritual and the soul inhabit your body together and interact with each other (one of the many reasons the human experience is so unique), but at death, they fragment and go on different journeys: the spirit, having lost its memories, to be reborn in a new body, and the soul, having lost its awareness, to live in a non-physical world which it basically created out of its own unconscious and belief systems (a good depiction of the soul’s journey is in the Robin Williams movie, What Dreams May Come).

Everything written above comes from this book by Peter Novak, which I read about 15 years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Secret-Death-Divided-Afterlife/dp/1571743243

At this point, hopefully you are reading this and saying - wait, what? But hold on, there’s more!

What if the traumatic fragmentation of the spirit and the soul at the moment of death was not inevitable and could be prevented by certain esoteric integration practices during life, which, if undertaken diligently and persistently, would result in the integration of the spirit and the soul during the period of physical incarnation itself, so that upon death the spirit and soul did not fragment but instead were able to exist as one in the spiritual realm? Such a being would become, as Obi Wan said in a different context, “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”. In other words, immortal and able to select its next physical incarnation at will.

One is reminded of the avatars of the Hindu gods, who presumably attained this state a long time ago and were able to return to the physical plane when required. And also of the doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism that the highly evolved lama is able to chose his next incarnation. Also, the obsession of the ancient Egyptians with surviving death - Novak convincingly shows that the ancient Egyptians understood very well that the spirit and the soul are different, having two different names and descriptions with very different qualities - and he shows that the same is true for many cultures around the world. Naturally, this information is heavily suppressed during modern times. As Bill Hicks would say (and yes, this is connected): it’s just a ride, but what do we do to those people who tell us this truth? https://youtu.be/KgzQuE1pR1w. Spend 2 minutes watching this to the end and you will understand what he means about “exploring space, inner and outer, forever, in peace”.

So. It is all about integration, which is long, difficult and complicated work. Yoga is one example, the literal meaning of the word yoga is “union”. But emotional, intellectual and spiritual integration is also required. Onwards, fellow gentle and brave seekers…

[RunningDeer]

This is a slightly different point from the other comments, which have been great - I would like to highlight one theory which states that the spirit and the soul both exist, but are different things.

The theory is the Binary Soul Doctrine or BSD.

I’m not saying that it is true (my personal opinion is that probably, it is), but it is fascinating and there is a lot of evidence that many cultures, some very ancient, believed in it, without any physical connection between those cultures. Could they all have independently discovered something very important about the nature of spiritual reality?

Bear in mind also that, if this theory is true, it would have been one of the most closely guarded esoteric secrets in the world. Not only the theory itself, but the practical implications for each person. That means in order to learn it you would have to spend 20 years being initiated and trained in some secret society before being considered ready to receive such knowledge. However, as we all know, these are very unique times that we are living in, so you can get this deep spiritual wisdom from a random stranger on the internet…

The basic theory is that the spirit and the soul are two different things. Most people (who are not materialists) believe that they both survive death and they are basically two words referring to the same thing. However, the BSD states that the spirit is pure awareness, but the soul is more like unconscious memories and a deep energetic connection with reality. During incarnation, both the spiritual and the soul inhabit your body together and interact with each other (one of the many reasons the human experience is so unique), but at death, they fragment and go on different journeys: the spirit, having lost its memories, to be reborn in a new body, and the soul, having lost its awareness, to live in a non-physical world which it basically created out of its own unconscious and belief systems (a good depiction of the soul’s journey is in the Robin Williams movie, What Dreams May Come).

Everything written above comes from this book by Peter Novak, which I read about 15 years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Secret-Death-Divided-Afterlife/dp/1571743243

At this point, hopefully you are reading this and saying - wait, what? But hold on, there’s more!

What if the traumatic fragmentation of the spirit and the soul at the moment of death was not inevitable and could be prevented by certain esoteric integration practices during life, which, if undertaken diligently and persistently, would result in the integration of the spirit and the soul during the period of physical incarnation itself, so that upon death the spirit and soul did not fragment but instead were able to exist as one in the spiritual realm? Such a being would become, as Obi Wan said in a different context, “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”. In other words, immortal and able to select its next physical incarnation at will.

One is reminded of the avatars of the Hindu gods, who presumably attained this state a long time ago and were able to return to the physical plane when required. And also of the doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism that the highly evolved lama is able to chose his next incarnation. Also, the obsession of the ancient Egyptians with surviving death - Novak convincingly shows that the ancient Egyptians understood very well that the spirit and the soul are different, having two different names and descriptions with very different qualities - and he shows that the same is true for many cultures around the world. Naturally, this information is heavily suppressed during modern times. As Bill Hicks would say (and yes, this is connected): it’s just a ride, but what do we do to those people who tell us this truth? https://youtu.be/KgzQuE1pR1w. Spend 2 minutes watching this to the end and you will understand what he means about “exploring space, inner and outer, forever, in peace”.

So. It is all about integration, which is long, difficult and complicated work. Yoga is one example, the literal meaning of the word yoga is “union”. But emotional, intellectual and spiritual integration is also required. Onwards, fellow gentle and brave seekers…


As Bill Hicks would say (and yes, this is connected): it’s just a ride, but what do we do to those people who tell us this truth? https://youtu.be/KgzQuE1pR1w. Spend 2 minutes watching this to the end and you will understand what he means about “exploring space, inner and outer, forever, in peace”.
Thanks, Cognitive Dissident. http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/hat-baseball.gif



Bill Hicks - It's Just A Ride
KgzQuE1pR1w

[Bill Ryan]

Why will people not admit that we do not know?I do know. :P

:focus:

[Harmony]

Why will people not admit that we do not know?I do know. :P

:focus:

Dear Bill,

Would you be able to tell us more about your knowledge surrounding soul and spirit dynamics between lives?

I did have a drowning experience when about 7yrs. old and can clearly remember being able to see surroundings underwater super clearly (without physical eyes) and all fear was non-existant, where ever consciousness was focused I was suddenly there. At the time I was in a deep fast flowing saltwater river with my Mother's diving weight belt on. 🙄. The experience happenned after struggle to stop falling down steep submerged rocky enbankment and I couldn't get wire buckle undone. Luckily my Dad realised I was missing and saw me underwater with a swimming mask on and brought me out 😊.

I don't have past live memories except very small flashes. Can you remember what happens inbetween lives?

[Bill Ryan]

Why will people not admit that we do not know?I do know. :P

:focus:

Dear Bill,

Would you be able to tell us more about your knowledge surrounding soul and spirit dynamics between lives?

I did have a drowning experience when about 7yrs. old and can clearly remember being able to see surroundings underwater super clearly (without physical eyes) and all fear was non-existant, where ever consciousness was focused I were suddenly there. At the time I was in a deep fast flowing saltwater river with my Mother's diving weightbelt on 🙄. The experience happenned after struggle to stop falling down steep submerged rocky embankment and I couldn't get wire buckle undone. Luckily my Dad realised I was missing and saw me underwater with a swimming mask on and brought me out 😊.

I don't have past live memories except very small flashes. Can you remember what happens inbetween lives?Great question, but I've never personally recalled anything between lives — in the sense that most people mean. (I did have a remarkable, complex and protracted experience between my last life and the current one, but it was so weird and unusual — very likely even unique — that it really doesn't count.)

However, I can share a great story. :flower:

A close friend is highly skilled in this area (she herself is a past life therapist), and she clearly recalled that between this life and her previous one she'd acted as what some might call "a guardian angel" for a Jewish artist who escaped from Nazi Germany and made a long a difficult journey across Europe to end up in Spain. He encountered many problems, again and again, and each time my friend was able to help him continue safely.

She recalled all this without knowing a thing about this person in the "real world". But she recalled enough detail to be able to look him up and discover who this was, and sure enough, he'd written about his experience.

In his writing, he vividly described how many times, he'd most distinctly felt he was being assisted by "an unseen hand".

:sun:

[NX.P]

I understand there are those, that once able, assist those in need via astral projection during sleep..or otherwise. A truly remarkable class of individuals devoting both physical and non-physical means to service.

[meeradas]

Maybe the reason you are so keen with the question is a sign you are really ready now for some holistic self discovery.

Most obviously.



Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?[...]

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know. [...]

Your free will is accepted & honoured.
Know that you can choose differently at any time.
:heart:[<-I mean it!]

[andyangel1205]

This is a great question - awhile ago, my wife channeled an entity we call "Jack" and asked him about past lives, his life as an Earth human, crossing over, etc - one of his answers stood out - "I needed to go where my soul needed to work." Jack said we have a choice at the life review stage and suggested to me that your "soul" helps drive you to your next destination. Fascinating stuff.

b_Uj-u03mQI

[XelNaga]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

Dear East Sun,

I guess you will have the answer to this question when you get your first personal experience with "it".

I don't want to get into detail as it is off-topic in a way, but I have been standing next to my sleeping body in my bed.

Now, the "me" looking at my body, was it my spirit, my soul, my astral body, or just pure consciousness, I have no idea.

But there was me, not physical, looking at my sleeping body. Something is there inside of these meat suits, but what? Who knows...

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I could offer this answer, copied verbatim, from the native American spirit Silver Birch. This is how the matter was viewed by him from the other side.

Q. Spirit and soul - what's the difference?

A. The trouble is semantics, the language of trying to find words that are incapable of explaining the totality of something that is beyond language. Words like soul and spirit are a case in point. You have to define your terms as to what you mean by them.

Let us, for the sake of simple definition, refer to the soul as that portion or particle, that divinity, which comes from the Great Spirit, the infinite spirit.

The spirit is the vehicle of the soul; it will function much more freely once it has separated from the physical body - which is composed of matter; it imposes restrictions on what the spirit can express on earth.

So you are souls with spirits expressing yourself through physical bodies; the personality is that aspect which can be manifested only while you are on earth. It is only an infinitesimal part of the individuality which is the real self; this is because it has no means of fullness of expression while it is cloaked by the physical body.

[East Sun]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

Dear East Sun,

I guess you will have the answer to this question when you get your first personal experience with "it".

I don't want to get into detail as it is off-topic in a way, but I have been standing next to my sleeping body in my bed.

Now, the "me" looking at my body, was it my spirit, my soul, my astral body, or just pure consciousness, I have no idea.

But there was me, not physical, looking at my sleeping body. Something is there inside of these meat suits, but what? Who knows...

Hi XelNaga,
Could it be that you were dreaming that you were looking at your sleeping body? I don't doubt anybody's
experience no matter what it may have been.
What I was saying in my initial post was that there is no way to prove absolutely that there is a spirit or
soul or even God or to disprove them either.

It has nothing to do with what I do or don't believe. Maybe I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
But as already said, there is a hell of a lot we don't know and lots we do know and can speculate
for ever.

[Bill Ryan]

I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
Let's look at it this way.

Think of the last time you ate a meal on your own. (Or any time, that you remember clearly.)

What did you eat?

Did that happen? Do you know it? Or just "believe" it? If you remember eating a burger somewhere (or a steak and salad!) — and I asked you if you really did, would you answer "Maybe yes?"

:)

[O Donna]

I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
Let's look at it this way.

Think of the last time you ate a meal on your own. (Or any time, that you remember clearly.)

What did you eat?

Did that happen? Do you know it? Or just "believe" it? If you remember eating a burger somewhere (or a steak and salad!) — and I asked you if you really did, would you answer "Maybe yes?"

:)

I can so relate to this post.

When I am alone at home after an active day I ask, did everything go down as I remember or does the mind use creative license to fill in at various places for the narrative to makes sense relative to a current worldview?

Do not read about memory studies if you believe memory is always or mostly based on purely factual happenings. Fascinating work in the field but a deep thinking mind will start to question it's foundational principles from what I've observed. Not that that isn't always a bad idea....

[Constance]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

Dear East Sun,

I guess you will have the answer to this question when you get your first personal experience with "it".

I don't want to get into detail as it is off-topic in a way, but I have been standing next to my sleeping body in my bed.

Now, the "me" looking at my body, was it my spirit, my soul, my astral body, or just pure consciousness, I have no idea.

But there was me, not physical, looking at my sleeping body. Something is there inside of these meat suits, but what? Who knows...

Hi XelNaga,
Could it be that you were dreaming that you were looking at your sleeping body? I don't doubt anybody's
experience no matter what it may have been.
What I was saying in my initial post was that there is no way to prove absolutely that there is a spirit or
soul or even God or to disprove them either.

It has nothing to do with what I do or don't believe. Maybe I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
But as already said, there is a hell of a lot we don't know and lots we do know and can speculate
for ever.

when you are meditating, and you are observing your thoughts, who is doing the observing?

[East Sun]

I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
Let's look at it this way.

Think of the last time you ate a meal on your own. (Or any time, that you remember clearly.)

What did you eat?

Did that happen? Do you know it? Or just "believe" it? If you remember eating a burger somewhere (or a steak and salad!) — and I asked you if you really did, would you answer "Maybe yes?"

:)

Hi Bill,
I don't think there's a correlation between the two things. I would not say maybe re: eating a burger
of course but would say maybe re: the existence of God.

[O Donna]

When it really comes down to it the question is unanswerable/ ineffable in terms that the most discerning mind will accept.

(? Location ?) Not inside or outside as those are terms relative to a perimeter/ roundabout. 'Spirit', if a term must be used, is none of these places/ things. Personally found the Netti-Netti method of self-inquiry helpful in this regard but that might not be useful for all at all points in a journey. If MEMORY is accurate it probably wouldn't have been of much use early on the self-journey of this writer.

[Constance]

Here is something for you East Sun.

This was an experiment carried out by the Heartmaths institute some time ago...

https://www.heartmath.org/articles-of-the-heart/a-deeper-view-of-intuition/

snippet:




The results were fascinating, showing that both the participants’ heart and brain appeared to indicate receiving and responding to information about the emotional quality of the pictures before the computer randomly selected them, as if they were responding to a future event. Specifically, these responses occurred, on average 4.8 seconds before the computer randomly selected pictures.

Even more profound, perhaps, was data showing the heart received information before the brain. "It is first registered from the heart," Rollin McCraty Ph.D. explained, "then up to the brain (emotional and pre-frontal cortex), where we can logically relate what we are intuiting, then finally down to the gut (or where something stirs)."

[greybeard]

Discover Your True Self ~ POWERFUL guidance from Mooji

In this simple and powerful introspection, Moojibaba guides us into the clear recognition of our own timeless being.

“Whatever is perceivable, you are already here. You don’t have to work for peace or love, spontaneously they will manifest. All that is beautiful and pure of consciousness is already within you.

Be grateful to the recognition of your own silence, your own self. It is the Lord of the universe, manifesting in each heart.”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZEKWnXvD-E

This may help.
I dont know the answers posed in this thread but I know someone who does --smiling
May your God be with you.
Chris

[TraineeHuman]

East Sun, I'd like to say something, at an intellectual argument/discussion level, that's intended to add a little ideas-wise to what greybeard and Mooji are saying. (And what they are both saying is, by the way, something which I've also tried to say in experiential terms a number of times in my own long Spirituality thread. And that experiential reality, by the way, always lies at the core of spiritual experience at its truest, in my experience.)

I guess first of all I could mention that I have postgraduate degree in philosophy. And philosophy is, among other things, the discipline which in a fully professional and accurate way, and at a fully professional level, investigates what exactly do we know and in what way(s) can or can't we prove it or not. By those standards, the claim you've made in this thread that it's not possible to prove the existence of the soul is laughable, I'm afraid, if by "the soul" you mean that which is the ground and the beginning of our consciousness, or something similar to that.

Historically, modern (or post-medieval) Western philosophy is considered to have begun with Renee Descartes' seventeenth century work titled Meditations. There, Descartes begins by asking the reader to begin by truly questioning everything. He then points out it is an absolute fact that no amount or degree of questioning can in any way doubt or disprove that the one who is questioning ipso facto exists. He expresses this fact as: "Cogito, ergo sum" (I think, and therefore, necessarily, I exist). However, philosophers have subsequently pointed out and proved that a more accurate and general statement of what this proves is: I have consciousness (or: there is consciousness within me), and that (absolutely, and quite undeniably) proves that in that sense I do exist (precisely because that core consciousness undeniably exists).

Your consciousness, in its grandeur, brings about and sustains all your existence, and not the other way around.

[Bill Ryan]

I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
Let's look at it this way.

Think of the last time you ate a meal on your own. (Or any time, that you remember clearly.)

What did you eat?

Did that happen? Do you know it? Or just "believe" it? If you remember eating a burger somewhere (or a steak and salad!) — and I asked you if you really did, would you answer "Maybe yes?"

:)

Hi Bill,
I don't think there's a correlation between the two things. I would not say maybe re: eating a burger
of course but would say maybe re: the existence of God.I was referring to memory. There's an exact correlation. :)

You remembered the burger. (For example.) But you can never prove it to anyone. But you just know.

One can also remember a past life. It's exactly the same.

[Charles Harris]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

[East Sun]

Hi TraineeHuman,
Thanks for your reply

''By those standards, the claim you've made in this thread that it's not possible to prove the existence of the soul is laughable, I'm afraid, if by "the soul" you mean that which is the ground and the beginning of our consciousness, or something similar to that.''

I don't see the concept of soul as part consciousness but what spiritual-minded people see as spirit.

[East Sun]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

Thanks Charles,

OK syrwong made a good point, that the PTB do not want us to study the soul, but that does not
"prove" we have a soul or not.

Also, the weight of men before and after death could be explained by other means by those same
scientists. The conclusion does not explain the existence of the soul or the opposite.

To you it is the closest thing to proof. Yes, it is close to proof but not proof.

[East Sun]

I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
Let's look at it this way.

Think of the last time you ate a meal on your own. (Or any time, that you remember clearly.)

What did you eat?

Did that happen? Do you know it? Or just "believe" it? If you remember eating a burger somewhere (or a steak and salad!) — and I asked you if you really did, would you answer "Maybe yes?"

:)

Hi Bill,
I don't think there's a correlation between the two things. I would not say maybe re: eating a burger
of course but would say maybe re: the existence of God.I was referring to memory. There's an exact correlation. :)

You remembered the burger. (For example.) But you can never prove it to anyone. But you just know.

One can also remember a past life. It's exactly the same.

In my opinion, you can never prove the existence of spirit, soul or god, or the opposite.

I've said it too many times already so that's where I stand on that matter.
On to the next conundrum.

BTW I do believe in reincarnation because of the research done by Dr. Ian
Stephenson. He could prove it to himself but not prove it enough
to convince even some of his peers. (It's years since I read one of his books
so maybe he wrote more about his research later.)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

In my opinion, you can never prove the existence of spirit, soul or god, or the opposite.


I'd say there's plenty of 'proof' on offer. Even if you don't have any personal experiences of spiritual phenomena, you can begin by collating the uncountable experiences of others. Weigh them, judge them, then apply common sense. For anyone who has common sense, that should be enough. [I can't for example prove gravity exists, but I can certainly observe its effects, and so can physics, though it can't quite solve its many riddles - because it can't be dissected or explained. Yet, gravity obviously exists if you apply common sense].

I've read each of these books below (more than once), they are just a few of many but a good start, and I can personally vouch for each of them. I've had many experiences too, and that certainly helps with the understanding. But I'd say this to anyone: If you're on a personal quest to actually find out the reality, better to read these before pondering and wavering on what you seem to think is unknowable. It isn't unknowable. The reality is accessible and entirely knowable. These are not merely metaphysical books, there are many studies involved from multiple scientists and physicians too.

Life After Life (https://www.amazon.com/Life-After-Bestselling-Investigation-Experiences/dp/006242890X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=raymond+moody&qid=1594924639&s=books&sr=1-1) - Dr Raymond Moody

Life Between Life (https://www.amazon.com/Life-Between-Joel-Whitten/dp/0446347620/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Life+Between+Life&qid=1594925004&s=books&sr=1-2) - Joel L. Whitton (M.d, Ph.D) Joe Fisher

Journey of Souls (https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184855/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=journey+of+souls&qid=1594925039&s=books&sr=1-1) - Dr. Michael Newton (Ph.D)

Origin of the Soul (https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Soul-Purpose-Reincarnation-Lives-ebook/dp/B07J5QYFRZ/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=origin+of+the+soul&qid=1594924884&s=books&sr=1-1) - Dr Walter Semkiw

Many Lives, Many Masters (https://www.amazon.com/Many-Lives-Masters-Prominent-Psychiatrist/dp/0671657860/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Many+Lives%2C+Many+Masters&qid=1594925093&s=books&sr=1-1) - Dr Brian Weiss

Between Death and Life (https://www.amazon.com/Between-Death-Life-Conversations-Spirit/dp/1940265002/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=between+death+and+life&qid=1594924561&s=books&sr=1-1) - Dolores Cannon

Life After Death (https://www.amazon.com/Life-After-Death-Renowned-Psychic/dp/0804113866/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=mary+t+browne&qid=1594924939&s=books&sr=1-2) - Mary T. Browne

The Afterlife is Real (https://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Real-Theresa-Cheung/dp/1471112365/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+Afterlife+is+Real&qid=1594925154&s=books&sr=1-1) - Theresa Cheung

[East Sun]

I thank you Star Mariner,

I have reads a lot of the books you displayed there, and still know what I know
to be true, in my reality.

I'm talking about total reality, here.

We know that gravity exists so, what does that prove to anyone?
We are talking about proof of spirit which can not be deciphered in
any logical, definite way.

[East Sun]

Here is something for you East Sun.

This was an experiment carried out by the Heartmaths institute some time ago...

https://www.heartmath.org/articles-of-the-heart/a-deeper-view-of-intuition/

snippet:




The results were fascinating, showing that both the participants’ heart and brain appeared to indicate receiving and responding to information about the emotional quality of the pictures before the computer randomly selected them, as if they were responding to a future event. Specifically, these responses occurred, on average 4.8 seconds before the computer randomly selected pictures.

Even more profound, perhaps, was data showing the heart received information before the brain. "It is first registered from the heart," Rollin McCraty Ph.D. explained, "then up to the brain (emotional and pre-frontal cortex), where we can logically relate what we are intuiting, then finally down to the gut (or where something stirs)."

I read about those tests awhile back but can not really relate to them now.

[Constance]

Here is something for you East Sun.

This was an experiment carried out by the Heartmaths institute some time ago...

https://www.heartmath.org/articles-of-the-heart/a-deeper-view-of-intuition/

snippet:




The results were fascinating, showing that both the participants’ heart and brain appeared to indicate receiving and responding to information about the emotional quality of the pictures before the computer randomly selected them, as if they were responding to a future event. Specifically, these responses occurred, on average 4.8 seconds before the computer randomly selected pictures.

Even more profound, perhaps, was data showing the heart received information before the brain. "It is first registered from the heart," Rollin McCraty Ph.D. explained, "then up to the brain (emotional and pre-frontal cortex), where we can logically relate what we are intuiting, then finally down to the gut (or where something stirs)."

I read about those tests awhile back but can not really relate to them now.

‘If you live your life based on modern science, I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but having no intuition or self-guidance ain't one.’
Donny Myers

[TraineeHuman]

East Sun, the way I see it (and have certainly experienced it many, many times too) is that you are actually the (admittedly, undefinable) universe, but, also, necessarily if you're this "you" (which you certainly are), then you are at the same time existing within and (at least in some huge ways) in control of, the context that is your (East Sun's, or whoever's) physical body and physical situation; and also existing in, and controlling, what is the context of whatever goes on in and as your mental, emotional, intuitional and other such aspects, whenever these are genuine and true, and when viewed from a suffering-free perspective.

I see the word "soul" as referring primarily to the intuitional (or, if you like, the wholistic thinking/seeing or the "looking") level of all this but also as monitoring all that happens on the levels below it (physical, emotional, mental, and whatever else). The soul isn't a "thing", such as what a noun could refer to. Instead it's relational -- much more like a verb is. (And then going even further in that direction, if you can imagine that. Like after the lights go on at the movie theater and you're reminded that what you've been engrossed in for over an hour was just a fantasy.)

As far as I'm aware, the soul is also in itself beyond all electromagnetic reality, even though it can enter into or penetrate or even interconnect with the electromagnetic world easily enough, at least in certain circumstances (such as in meditation).

To put it mildly, there's even more to this that I could tell, and that others have of course raised here. But I'll stop at this point. After all, you're apparently claiming all of the above would have to be a fiction of some sort (a so-called "hologram", perhaps?) , or in some way based on fiction or delusion.

[XelNaga]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

Dear East Sun,

I guess you will have the answer to this question when you get your first personal experience with "it".

I don't want to get into detail as it is off-topic in a way, but I have been standing next to my sleeping body in my bed.

Now, the "me" looking at my body, was it my spirit, my soul, my astral body, or just pure consciousness, I have no idea.

But there was me, not physical, looking at my sleeping body. Something is there inside of these meat suits, but what? Who knows...

Hi XelNaga,
Could it be that you were dreaming that you were looking at your sleeping body? I don't doubt anybody's
experience no matter what it may have been.
What I was saying in my initial post was that there is no way to prove absolutely that there is a spirit or
soul or even God or to disprove them either.

It has nothing to do with what I do or don't believe. Maybe I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
But as already said, there is a hell of a lot we don't know and lots we do know and can speculate
for ever.

Hi East Sun,

Well actually, that is what I first thought, that it was all just a dream. Believe me, I'm not one to jump to conclusions easily. I come from a very scientific background, and always try to find "rational" explanations for everything. But sometimes you simply hit a wall with scientific approach, and you have to find a different one. I've done a lot of meditations, energy work and healings in the past 12 years to know when I reach that limit with scientific explanations.

Again, I don't want to explain that entire situation, as it is a bit off-topic, and would probably sound too weird to you, but during that experience there was "something or someone" else there with me, that didn't have best my best wishes at heart. Let's just say, I really pissed "it" off because of certain positive energy impact that I've made, both in my life and around it.

Now, there are three things that made me certain that it was real and not just in my head;

-my OBE wasn't intentional from my side, it was instigated by that thing/being, I was ripped out of my body so to speak;
-tomorrow after that experience, I've had physical marks on my body from "fight" with it, whatever it was
(I have tried to recreate a scenario how could I have made those injuries to myself, it was just not possible);
-my dog was with me in my room when it all happened, looking at that "being" with fear and growling at it.

I know to you this is all just hear-say, and that you would say that it was all just a nightmare with some coincidences added to it, but that is ok.
I was like that long time ago, and only personal experiences and energy work could break my scientific look at the world.

That is why I said what I said, when you get your first personal experience with something you won't be able to rationally explain, you will know.

I agree with you, and would even say, that there are much much more things that we do not know, then those that we do know.
This universe is sooooo big, with so many forms of life everywhere, our knowledge of it all is probably less than 1%.

Sorry for a long response,
Kind regards my friend...

[XelNaga]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

If I remember correctly, it was done by one of, if not the greatest scientist of all, who changed the world in so many ways, Nikola Tesla.
He could create paradise on earth, only if people weren't so evil and greedy, as they are now.

[Ernie Nemeth]

This was and is my mother's favorite fact. She swears by it. They measured the weight of the soul - it is real! She loved that, still does.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

We are talking about proof of spirit which can not be deciphered in
any logical, definite way.

It's fine by the way, I've got no problem with what you or anyone believes, we're just having a discussion and everything's fine. But I am struggling, because you say here:



BTW I do believe in reincarnation because of the research done by Dr. Ian
Stephenson.

The soul and reincarnation are mutually dependent, so in a way it's like saying "I do believe in the ocean, but not the existence of water."

[East Sun]

We are talking about proof of spirit which can not be deciphered in
any logical, definite way.

It's fine by the way, I've got no problem with what you or anyone believes, we're just having a discussion and everything's fine. But I am struggling, because you say here:



BTW I do believe in reincarnation because of the research done by Dr. Ian
Stephenson.

The soul and reincarnation are mutually dependent, so in a way it's like saying "I do believe in the ocean, but not the existence of water."

Well, maybe I see things differently to most people, 'maybe'.
Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?

[Bill Ryan]

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?Then who would be reincarnating? :)

[East Sun]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

If I remember correctly, it was done by one of, if not the greatest scientist of all, who changed the world in so many ways, Nikola Tesla.
He could create paradise on earth, only if people weren't so evil and greedy, as they are now.

I think we blew our greatest chance to achieve greatness by rejecting Tesla and because of greed.

The experiment may not have been done by Tesla but by someone else. I don't know?

[Anka]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.QShCM9xsSC2rPV38uY4n7QHaHa%26pid%3DApi&f=1

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.tr9iCNsFPb_aLkQhZxtkLQHaJ4%26pid%3DApi&f=1

[East Sun]

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?Then who would be reincarnating? :)

It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

[Justjane]

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

With respect East Sun, we do know. I’m not sure what else has been written here but we are spirit, we are energy, we are the living embodiment of the universe/God/source. Those of us who have gone through the awakening process know this absolutely. Personally, I can feel both the chakras, my soul, and the energy, or spirit, which runs through it. Everyone has this potential, perhaps you are not recognising it for what it is.

No one can prove the intangible. It’s a private, personal experience but ultimately it will be the same for everyone.

It isn’t up to anyone else to prove this to you, they couldn’t if they tried, awakening presents itself as an invitation from the universe and you will be called when you are ready.

In the meantime, MEDITATE MEDITATE MEDITATE, concentrate on the physical sensations you experience rather than worrying about your thoughts, they’ll be your gateway.

[Justjane]

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?Then who would be reincarnating? :)

It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

What are those memories? Where would they come from? What would they be attached to or what form would they take? How would they be transported? Why would you believe they are memories and not the soul or spirit?

Confused by your line of thinking here.....

Is this just an issue of semantics or understanding here?

[O Donna]

It's turtles all the way....

That doesn't mean you're a turtle but you could be for the duration. :sherlock:

https://cdn.funnyisms.com/3e7e7739-5081-404c-8ade-7b46c532aaf0.jpg

To be or not to be, it's only as important as we think it is.

[Constance]

East Sun, the way I see it (and have certainly experienced it many, many times too) is that you are actually the (admittedly, undefinable) universe, but, also, necessarily if you're this "you" (which you certainly are), then you are at the same time existing within and (at least in some huge ways) in control of, the context that is your (East Sun's, or whoever's) physical body and physical situation; and also existing in, and controlling, what is the context of whatever goes on in and as your mental, emotional, intuitional and other such aspects, whenever these are genuine and true, and when viewed from a suffering-free perspective.

I see the word "soul" as referring primarily to the intuitional (or, if you like, the wholistic thinking/seeing or the "looking") level of all this but also as monitoring all that happens on the levels below it (physical, emotional, mental, and whatever else). The soul isn't a "thing", such as what a noun could refer to. Instead it's relational -- much more like a verb is. (And then going even further in that direction, if you can imagine that. Like after the lights go on at the movie theater and you're reminded that what you've been engrossed in for over an hour was just a fantasy.)

As far as I'm aware, the soul is also in itself beyond all electromagnetic reality, even though it can enter into or penetrate or even interconnect with the electromagnetic world easily enough, at least in certain circumstances (such as in meditation).

To put it mildly, there's even more to this that I could tell, and that others have of course raised here. But I'll stop at this point. After all, you're apparently claiming all of the above would have to be a fiction of some sort (a so-called "hologram", perhaps?) , or in some way based on fiction or delusion.

From my own direct experience, the true nature of our being -being holographic in its nature as well as multidimensional and fractal means that the electromagnetic field eminates from our soul.

[Constance]

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?Then who would be reincarnating? :)

It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

A question for you East Sun. How do you know when someone loves you? How do you know that you are loved? :flower:

[Catsquotl]

If soul exists it is just a boundary. It defines an entity in time and space similarly to an ego defining an entity in a body on earth. Taking the idea of reincarnation and the so above so below paradigm it stands to reason that a soul even though bound by different laws than the ego will at some point die and be reborn again?

Buddha said some questions when asked will only serve to confuse, because an answer even if it is valid has absolutely no significance to the actions we take.
The belief in the existence of soul may yield a feeling of security. But that feeling is accessible through a Merida of other belief systems.

With Love

[Catsquotl]

The reason that people will not admit that they do not know is because when we have a direct connection to our true nature, like a near-death experience, or an out-of-body experience, or we bilocate or we have a parallel universe experience, there is direct awareness of the truth that we are universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite, eternal beings. It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.


I've had OOB's, Had conversations with myself from other timelines. I have seen some forms of here and now in deep meditation retreats. Experiences are just that. Experiences. Here one moment gone the next. There is nothing but fabrications of the mind that structure experiences into something meaningful.


That is the way thing are.

I agree we can experience universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite and eternal states.
That fact says nothing about the idea that there is some form of self identifiable being we call our Self or Soul that experiences these kinds of things.

[greybeard]

If soul exists it is just a boundary. It defines an entity in time and space similarly to an ego defining an entity in a body on earth. Taking the idea of reincarnation and the so above so below paradigm it stands to reason that a soul even though bound by different laws than the ego will at some point die and be reborn again?

Buddha said some questions when asked will only serve to confuse, because an answer even if it is valid has absolutely no significance to the actions we take.
The belief in the existence of soul may yield a feeling of security. But that feeling is accessible through a Merida of other belief systems.

With Love

That does not apply in non duality -- That is to say only One soul.
Omni present sums it up.
There is nowhere that Soul, That- One without a second -- Brahman -- God --- is not.

The same substratum in everything.
Varying degrees of the One energy.

If the belief is duality -- me and everything else -- subject and object then thats a different story and just as valid

Chris

[Catsquotl]

That does not apply in non duality -- That is to say only One soul.
Omni present sums it up.
There is nowhere that Soul, That- One without a second -- Brahman -- God --- is not.


Chris


Agreed, That is the only reality, if you will, I accept without question.
I did not define soul to be Brahman, I defined it as a part of him defined as separate in order to experience him/her self.
If you define Soul as One.. I agree.

~edit~
Brahman, Tao, God, the One however cannot be known or defined. So for practical purposes there is Soul, but not your Soul. There is life, but not your life.
If there is reincarnation it isn't you who reincarnates. Unless you identify as all That is.
I for one would not dare to make that presumption.
And yet He is my core.

[Constance]

The reason that people will not admit that they do not know is because when we have a direct connection to our true nature, like a near-death experience, or an out-of-body experience, or we bilocate or we have a parallel universe experience, there is direct awareness of the truth that we are universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite, eternal beings. It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.


I've had OOB's, Had conversations with myself from other timelines. I have seen some forms of here and now in deep meditation retreats. Experiences are just that. Experiences. Here one moment gone the next. There is nothing but fabrications of the mind that structure experiences into something meaningful.


That is the way thing are.

I agree we can experience universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite and eternal states.
That fact says nothing about the idea that there is some form of self identifiable being we call our Self or Soul that experiences these kinds of things.

A quick question for you Catsquotl :flower: What is the mind?

[Catsquotl]

A quick question for you Catsquotl :flower: What is the mind?

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditation/Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf

[Constance]

If soul exists it is just a boundary. It defines an entity in time and space similarly to an ego defining an entity in a body on earth. Taking the idea of reincarnation and the so above so below paradigm it stands to reason that a soul even though bound by different laws than the ego will at some point die and be reborn again?

Buddha said some questions when asked will only serve to confuse, because an answer even if it is valid has absolutely no significance to the actions we take.
The belief in the existence of soul may yield a feeling of security. But that feeling is accessible through a Merida of other belief systems.

With Love

What if someone could demonstrate to you how far your electromagnetic field extends out from your body through dowsing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3LhnrFrrEw)?

[Catsquotl]

What if someone could demonstrate to you how far your electromagnetic field goes out from your body through dowsing?


What do you propose that would prove?
That I exists beyond my body? I agree to that allready. Does it prove soul exists? I do that too. What I am saying is that the existence of things does not mean it is mine or even that there is an I that has something to do with it. I will not even say that Brahaman is a self identified entity.

[Constance]

What if someone could demonstrate to you how far your electromagnetic field goes out from your body through dowsing?


What do you propose that would prove?
That I exists beyond my body? I agree to that allready. Does it prove soul exists? I do that too. What I am saying is that the existence of things does not mean it is mine or even that there is an I that has something to do with it. I will not even say that Brahaman is a self identified entity.



That I exists beyond my body? I agree to that allready.

okay. Great. Thank you for clarifying.

It is just that you said, I've had OOB's, Had conversations with myself from other timelines. I have seen some forms of here and now in deep meditation retreats. Experiences are just that. Experiences. Here one moment gone the next. There is nothing but fabrications of the mind that structure experiences into something meaningful.

Who was saying What?

If these experiences are just fabrications of the mind, what is the mind (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111432-Constance-s-empowerment-portal&p=1367010&viewfull=1#post1367010)? Who is observing who?

If I have a direct experience of my soul, if the I am is present and is witness to it, and I am consciously aware of it, how can that be a fabrication?

[Catsquotl]

The experience is real. The fact that you infer that it was happening to you, or exists as anything more than a memory is the fabrication. I'd say read the book I shared and do some prolonged vipassana retreats if you want a glimpse of what I mean. Truth isn't something I am capable of explaining.

[Constance]

The experience is real. The fact that you infer that it was happening to you, or exists as anything more than a memory is the fabrication. I'd say read the book I shared and do some prolonged vipassana retreats if you want a glimpse of what I mean. Truth isn't something I am capable of explaining.

Everything is happening simultaneously, which is why we are able to access our past and our future - it was the I am that I was referring to. The witness.


Truth isn't something I am capable of explaining.

Fair enough.


I'd say read the book I shared and do some prolonged vipassana retreats if you want a glimpse of what I mean. Truth isn't something I am capable of explaining

The Buddha once said that you will find my works in a thousand books. The book you shared is just one interpretation of the truth. The Buddha said, in 2000 years the essence of my teachings will be lost.

I have a feeling that there are misunderstandings and misinterpretations around what I've said. You don't really know who I am at all so that is understandable. :flower: Maybe if we sat together and you could have a direct experience of who I am, you might have direct awareness around what I am. :heart:

Edited to add: Just one more thing...we can have an individual or collective experience - an example of the two: the individual experience could be experienced as an OBE and a collective experience could be the morphic resonance that is felt around the world eg. The twin towers

[Catsquotl]

You could turn that last phrase around.
Reading the book was not the take away from my suggestion. The prolonged vipassana practice however.

That said. I have no problem with you. Just sharing my perspective to east sun's question.

[Constance]

The prolonged vipassana practice however.

As I said above, you don't really know who I am...lets leave it at that...


That said. I have no problem with you.
:bigsmile: That's good to hear.

[Catsquotl]

As I said above, you don't really know who I am...lets leave it at that...




What does this mean? Do you really know who I am?
I know exactly who you are. Nothing can change the fact that you as You present yourself only exist in the fabrications of my mind. Likewise I exist only in the fabrications of your mind..


And yet I dare to say we are the same..

[Catsquotl]

- it was the I am that I was referring to. The witness.



Curious. Who would you say the witness is?

[Constance]

- it was the I am that I was referring to. The witness.



Curious. Who would you say the witness is?

All the divine forces, the divine will.

[Catsquotl]

- it was the I am that I was referring to. The witness.



Curious. Who would you say the witness is?

All the divine forces, the divine will.

That's a bit abstract isn't it?
But ok. Is it you? Is it your soul? Does your Soul equal/is it the same as divine will?
Does Devine will have a self? Or is there something beyond.

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate Bodhi svaha

[Wind]

I always believed in the existence of the soul.

Once one night I woke up above my body I surely realized that I'm not just my physical body. I knew that before it too. Consciousness is nonlocal. That is what I ultimately am, consciousness. I am not this body, I am not this mind-ego. I only imagine myself to be this.

These are the garments that I, the Self wear throughout lifetimes.
I was never born and I will never die. Only the body dies with it's ideas about the residual self-image.

The essence - the soul, with the accumulation of all of it's experiences will always remain. It has it's preferences and unique flavors too. One day it will merge with the Brahman and once again become one with the Creator. We are already the Creator, we just don't truly "get" it yet.

That's the ultimate journey of the soul, and in terms of human time it takes eons. For the soul it doesn't matter, everything is just experience after all. Here on Earth it's all about the polarization of the soul, towards light or darkness. Or service to others vs. service to self. Here is where we make the choices that matter the most. Don't lose your soul, your Self.

We were talking about the love that's gone so cold
And the people who gain the world and lose their soul
They don't know, they can't see, are you one of them?

When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find
Peace of mind is waiting there
And the time will come when you see we're all one
And life flows on within you and without you

[thepainterdoug]

These NDExperiences make a compelling case for me that a soul exists. i read these almost every night https://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html

[TomKat]

Nobody can speak for everyone. The real question is:

Are YOU a spirit?

And if you are NOT, don't be afraid to say so.

[East Sun]

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?Then who would be reincarnating? :)

The person who died would be reincarnated into the person being born, like being born
again. Memories of the the previous person "live" in the new person.

Don't ask me to explain how this process comes about, you would probably say through spirit, and that might be so, but not necessarily. There could be other explanations known to other beliefs.

[East Sun]

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?Then who would be reincarnating? :)

It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

A question for you East Sun. How do you know when someone loves you? How do you know that you are loved? :flower:

I don't know. I really do not know.

[greybeard]

Bernie Prior said.
When you are on the way into this world its as though you have a shopping basket and you go and select a suitable personality, gender, parents, culture,
and perhaps the memories of a past life --


My thoughts.
Not saying I believe him
its not yours -- nothing belongs to what you are -- no subject no object --just life.
Chris
Ps nothing is personal -- no me. but that is non duality.
Most get an ego to make it all seem real and personal.
"Ego is Identification with the story of me"
Thats a Dr David Hawkins quote.

[East Sun]

Nobody can speak for everyone. The real question is:

Are YOU a spirit?

And if you are NOT, don't be afraid to say so.

How would we know if we were spirit?

[greybeard]

Silent awareness -- no need of anything to define. It is.
Interesting thread.
Thanks
Chris

[greybeard]

Be still and know that I AM God.
All the rest is intellect.

[Catsquotl]

I think everything beyond be still is intellect.

[TomKat]

Nobody can speak for everyone. The real question is:

Are YOU a spirit?

And if you are NOT, don't be afraid to say so.

How would we know if we were spirit?

get rid of WE, it's about YOU

[Ed Dawson]

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

Why did you ask if you are already convinced?

I could tell you personal experience, but what would be the point if you are already convinced otherwise?

In 1970 I died at the age of 20. Except that I didn't because I paid attention to a series of dreams I had in the week before my death. I paid attention, and survived an auto accident with only superficial damage to my body because I remembered the dreams and knew what to do to survive. The point is that something communicated with me and that communication enabled my survival. As for what that 'something' was, let's not speculate because that takes us into the realm of religion, and I respect your request not to go there.

Nevertheless there was some sort of consciousness which did not employ normal physical means of obtaining knowledge. And that implies – not proves, implies – the existence of something beyond the limitations of the senses of the physical body.

[Ernie Nemeth]

There's a reason for the parable of the doubting Thomas.

It makes awakening more exciting and fun.

Have fun East Sun!

[Antagenet]

For me the"Proof" is what I saw on two people's deathbed confessions.
One very bad person who hurt many others said, "I am ended. I will no longer exist."
And
One very good person, almost a saint, and an atheist said,
"I hear the most beautiful music, and am seeing animals and a light staircase. I think I'll hop along now."

I always suspected Gurdjieff was right.
Those who develop their I AM,
their capacity to love, and conscience
have developed souls.

Those who don't were given a chance and blew it.

[TomKat]

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

Why did you ask if you are already convinced?

Because he's trying to establish a consensus that we don't know for sure -- especially targetting people who do know for sure. Standard "skeptic" tactic.

[East Sun]

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

Why did you ask if you are already convinced?

Because he's trying to establish a consensus that we don't know for sure -- especially targetting people who do know for sure. Standard "skeptic" tactic.

Some people believe that they do know for sure and that's fine for them but
others believe that they don't know for sure.

I have said on this thread, "maybe" yes and maybe no.

A sceptics tactic? Not at all.

[East Sun]

I didn't say I was convinced about anything.

[Jake]

I didn't say I was convinced about anything.

Question EVERYTHING. (or should I??).

My friend, just because I have my own solid understanding of spirit/soul/essence/consciousness,,, (etc...) That doesn't mean I have all of the answers. Neither would you. Even if you were to have a complete transformative spiritual awakening event today,,, what words do you think you could use that would ever convince anyone? I suspect that our relationship with ALLTHATIS, unique to the individual.

My OBEs don't make me any more able to tell you about God or heaven. But I walk with an open knowledge that we are more than fleshy creatures. I do not fear death. I understand reincarnation. Those are solid gifts. Still,,, I can't majically transfer any of that to another.

Just the other night, I was out of my body, flying way up high into the starry, (wide open) sky. The feeling was amazing. Everything is alive, and I'm part of it. Beeing soooooo free and alive,,, there's just NO words. In that moment, I'm sorry, but there are no questions of God or religions or bodies or ANYTHING really... Just being ONE with the experience is enough. It's COMING BACK to physical reality that makes one question things. Yeah buddy.

For what it's worth,,,

Jake

[East Sun]

I didn't say I was convinced about anything.

Question EVERYTHING. (or should I??).

My friend, just because I have my own solid understanding of spirit/soul/essence/consciousness,,, (etc...) That doesn't mean I have all of the answers. Neither would you. Even if you were to have a complete transformative spiritual awakening event today,,, what words do you think you could use that would ever convince anyone? I suspect that our relationship with ALLTHATIS, unique to the individual.

My OBEs don't make me any more able to tell you about God or heaven. But I walk with an open knowledge that we are more than fleshy creatures. I do not fear death. I understand reincarnation. Those are solid gifts. Still,,, I can't majically transfer any of that to another.

Just the other night, I was out of my body, flying way up high into the starry, (wide open) sky. The feeling was amazing. Everything is alive, and I'm part of it. Beeing soooooo free and alive,,, there's just NO words. In that moment, I'm sorry, but there are no questions of God or religions or bodies or ANYTHING really... Just being ONE with the experience is enough. It's COMING BACK to physical reality that makes one question things. Yeah buddy.

For what it's worth,,,

Jake

Thank you for your reply, Jake

I cant believe that I'm not understood when I try to state my point
regarding Spirit/Soul/God etc. I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven"
beyond a doubt. I did not say what I did or did not believe.

It's great that you experienced that.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood.

[Jayke]

Thank you for your reply, Jake

I cant believe that I'm not understood when I try to state my point
regarding Spirit/Soul/God etc. I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven"
beyond a doubt. I did not say what I did or did not believe.

It's great that you experienced that.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood.

The science of spirit is the physics of dielectric energy. A suppressed science but one the likes of Nikola Tesla and Wilhelm Reich we’re fully aware of. Tesla had his papers stolen and Reich died in prison and his books removed from libraries to obscure the evidence.

Reich described dielectric energy as ‘orgone’, the energy which animates biological matter (spirit), and was able to prove its existence with multiple experiments.

Check out the work of James DeMeo, he’s picked up where Reich left off and managed to replicate all of Reichs most important discoveries.


http://www.orgonelab.org

The Dynamic Ether of Cosmic Space (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dynamic-Ether-Cosmic-Space-Correcting/dp/0997405716).

sPV-JExUPns
The cultivation of a soul then is the ability to embody a dielectric charge to the point that consciousness can be imprinted on a coherently coalesced and densely charged structure of dielectric energy. A structure in which consciousness can reside, even once the dielectric charge has left the biological meat suit after physical death.

The Ancient Egyptians knew how to work with this dielectric energy. There is a very strong similarity between Tesla’s Colorado Springs tower and the Egyptian pyramids. Although Tesla’s tower is a very crude version of what the pyramids were designed to do. Both are dielectric generators.

The cultivation of a soul is the great work of the Mer-Ka-Ba. The Egyptians had a fully developed soul science around the process. Outlined metaphorically in their ‘Book of the Dead’ Or ‘Book of coming forth by Light’ as it’s more accurately called. Where the soul was understood through 9 different distinctions (https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-religions/ancient-egyptian-soul-0012390).

Mer=pyramid. Although the hieroglyph used in Egypt for ‘Mer’ looks more like the tool used to erect the Djed pillar.

http://www.tescera.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/mermain1.jpg

Ka=that which aspires to the heavens (symbolised by two arms reaching up to the sky in hieroglyphics)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka_statue


A ka statue is a type of ancient Egyptian statue intended to provide a resting place for the ka (life-force or spirit) of the person after death. The ancient Egyptians believed the ka along with the physical body, the name, the ba (personality or soul), and the šwt (shadow), made up the five aspects of a person.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Ka_Statue_of_horawibra.jpg

Ba= the bird which takes flight and carries the Ka to the Akh.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/ba.jpg?itok=QGD42xVd

Our modern science doesn’t have much proof for a soul, but that’s only because the science has been heavily suppressed. To the Ancient Egyptians — and the many people who’ve proven it to themselves on this thread — its something that’s been “proven to be true a million times over” (Ancient Egyptian saying in relation to the journey of the soul in the afterlife)

Freddy Silva has written a book on the Ancient practices called ‘The Lost Art of Resurrection (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Art-Resurrection-Initiation-Otherworld/dp/1620556367)’, in which he describes the technology of resurrection that was practiced to prove the existence of the soul to oneself.

fLZAJ2d-iBw

“Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing.” — Gnostic Gospel of Philip

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven"
beyond a doubt.

Yes they can be proven, without any doubt whatsoever, by the many, many tales that have been told, in this thread and numerous others, by countless academic and scientific studies, decades of paranormal research, and centuries, indeed millennia, of mystical and spiritual exploration and revelation. If for whatever reason all this vast material does not, by way of common sense, convert into 'proof', then the only thing left is direct experience. For that, and for you, it's just a matter of time. You need only open up your heart and listen.

:heart:

[East Sun]

Thank you for your reply, Jake

I cant believe that I'm not understood when I try to state my point regarding Spirit/Soul/God etc. I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven" beyond a doubt. I did not say what I did or did not believe.

It's great that you experienced that.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood.The Ancient Egyptians knew how to work with this dielectric energy. There is a very strong similarity between Tesla’s Colorado Springs tower and the Egyptian pyramids. Although Tesla’s tower is a very crude version of what the pyramids were designed to do. Both are dielectric generators.

Our modern science doesn’t have much proof for a soul, but that’s only because the science has been heavily suppressed. To the Ancient Egyptians — and the many people who’ve proven it to themselves on this thread — its something that’s been “proven to be true a million times over” (Ancient Egyptian saying in relation to the journey of the soul in the afterlife)

Thank you Jayke,

I am familiar with the work of Dr. Wilhelm Reich. I wear an orgone disk
around my neck for what it's worth. Maybe it makes a difference or not,
anyway it looks good.

Also, I read a translation of The Egyptian Book of the Dead by Sogal Rinpoci(sp)
entitled The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. (lent it to someone, never got it back)

Anyway the Egyptians believed a lot of things that do not make sense to us today,
but somethings do.

ES

[East Sun]

I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven"
beyond a doubt.

Yes they can be proven, without any doubt whatsoever, by the many, many tales that have been told, in this thread and numerous others, by countless academic and scientific studies, decades of paranormal research, and centuries, indeed millennia, of mystical and spiritual exploration and revelation. If for whatever reason all this vast material does not, by way of common sense, convert into 'proof', then the only thing left is direct experience. For that, and for you, it's just a matter of time. You need only open up your heart and listen.

:heart:

Those things might be felt or believed but are not absolute proof IMO.

[Jayke]

Thank you for your reply, Jake

I cant believe that I'm not understood when I try to state my point regarding Spirit/Soul/God etc. I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven" beyond a doubt. I did not say what I did or did not believe.

It's great that you experienced that.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood.The Ancient Egyptians knew how to work with this dielectric energy. There is a very strong similarity between Tesla’s Colorado Springs tower and the Egyptian pyramids. Although Tesla’s tower is a very crude version of what the pyramids were designed to do. Both are dielectric generators.

Our modern science doesn’t have much proof for a soul, but that’s only because the science has been heavily suppressed. To the Ancient Egyptians — and the many people who’ve proven it to themselves on this thread — its something that’s been “proven to be true a million times over” (Ancient Egyptian saying in relation to the journey of the soul in the afterlife)

Thank you Jayke,

I am familiar with the work of Dr. Wilhelm Reich. I wear an orgone disk
around my neck for what it's worth. Maybe it makes a difference or not,
anyway it looks good.

Also, I read a translation of The Egyptian Book of the Dead by Sogal Rinpoci(sp)
entitled The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. (lent it to someone, never got it back)

Anyway the Egyptians believed a lot of things that do not make sense to us today,
but somethings do.

ES

Those orgone disks don’t actually do anything, as they’re not based on Reichs real research. James DeMeo covers that pretty heavily in his talks. He describes how Reichs work was watered down as a diversion to throw people off track as to how Reich really got the results he did.

Ancient Egyptian technology and worldviews only don’t make sense when viewed through a faulty paradigm. In light of the physics of dielectrics, everything they did absolutely does make sense.

Electrics = the study of electro-magnetism.
Dielectrics = the study of electro-statics.

The pyramids and temples are designed as electro-static accumulators. For what purpose?

There’s the health benefits as Reich discovered.

But densely charged electro-static environments also have a profound influence on gene expression. There’s 250 years of Western science studying dielectric fields that have been heavily suppressed. Studying dielectrics is ABSOLUTE PROOF of spirit as it manifests in matter. I can say that with 100% certainty.

Choose to ignore the science as you wish, but without having studied it, you can’t say absolute proof hasn’t been provided. It’s there for those who have the eyes to see and the heart to know.

https://emediapress.com/aaronmurakami/biohacking/
P7i59835ldE

[East Sun]

Thank you for your reply, Jake

I cant believe that I'm not understood when I try to state my point regarding Spirit/Soul/God etc. I said at the start that "they" can not be "proven" beyond a doubt. I did not say what I did or did not believe.

It's great that you experienced that.

I hope that my post will not be misunderstood.The Ancient Egyptians knew how to work with this dielectric energy. There is a very strong similarity between Tesla’s Colorado Springs tower and the Egyptian pyramids. Although Tesla’s tower is a very crude version of what the pyramids were designed to do. Both are dielectric generators.

Our modern science doesn’t have much proof for a soul, but that’s only because the science has been heavily suppressed. To the Ancient Egyptians — and the many people who’ve proven it to themselves on this thread — its something that’s been “proven to be true a million times over” (Ancient Egyptian saying in relation to the journey of the soul in the afterlife)

Thank you Jayke,

I am familiar with the work of Dr. Wilhelm Reich. I wear an orgone disk
around my neck for what it's worth. Maybe it makes a difference or not,
anyway it looks good.

Also, I read a translation of The Egyptian Book of the Dead by Sogal Rinpoci(sp)
entitled The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. (lent it to someone, never got it back)

Anyway the Egyptians believed a lot of things that do not make sense to us today,
but somethings do.

ES

Those orgone disks don’t actually do anything, as they’re not based on Reichs real research. James DeMeo covers that pretty heavily in his talks. He describes how Reichs work was watered down as a diversion to throw people off track as to how Reich really got the results he did.

Ancient Egyptian technology and worldviews only don’t make sense when viewed through a faulty paradigm. In light of the physics of dielectrics, everything they did absolutely does make sense.

Electrics = the study of electro-magnetism.
Dielectrics = the study of electro-statics.

The pyramids and temples are designed as electro-static accumulators. For what purpose?

There’s the health benefits as Reich discovered.

But densely charged electro-static environments also have a profound influence on gene expression. There’s 250 years of Western science studying dielectric fields that have been heavily suppressed. Studying dielectrics is ABSOLUTE PROOF of spirit as it manifests in matter. I can say that with 100% certainty.

Choose to ignore the science as you wish, but without having studied it, you can’t say absolute proof hasn’t been provided. It’s there for those who have the eyes to see and the heart to know.

https://emediapress.com/aaronmurakami/biohacking/
P7i59835ldE

Jayke,
Please excuse me and call me dense if you like but I fail to see
how science in any capacity can in any way "prove" anything spiritual.

[Jayke]

Jayke,
Please excuse me and call me dense if you like but I fail to see
how science in any capacity can in any way "prove" spirituality.
ES
You were asking for proof of spirit.

Spirit is defined as ‘the energy that animates matter‘. Science is able to prove their is an energy that animates matter. Therefore spirit is provable.

It’s not a complicated equation by any stretch. Pretty slam-dunk straight forward to be honest.

[meeradas]

This is for you

https://people.well.com/user/jct/enemy1.htm

[XelNaga]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

If I remember correctly, it was done by one of, if not the greatest scientist of all, who changed the world in so many ways, Nikola Tesla.
He could create paradise on earth, only if people weren't so evil and greedy, as they are now.

I think we blew our greatest chance to achieve greatness by rejecting Tesla and because of greed.

The experiment may not have been done by Tesla but by someone else. I don't know?

We definitely did. I can't imagine what would world look like today if we let him do what he wanted to do.

Yes, I was wrong, it was not done by him, my apologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

[East Sun]

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

If I remember correctly, it was done by one of, if not the greatest scientist of all, who changed the world in so many ways, Nikola Tesla.
He could create paradise on earth, only if people weren't so evil and greedy, as they are now.

I think we blew our greatest chance to achieve greatness by rejecting Tesla and because of greed.

The experiment may not have been done by Tesla but by someone else. I don't know?

We definitely did. I can't imagine what would world look like today if we let him do what he wanted to do.

Yes, I was wrong, it was not done by him, my apologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

Thank you XelNaga,

" I can't imagine what would world look like today if we let him do what he wanted to do."

Far, far better than it is now, no world bankers, Soros types, Gates types, Bush's, Clinton's etc.
In other words, just the way it is now.

We need a new Tesla or a genius like him.
It's time for a new person to emerge to the occasion. And it may happen or has
already happened.
ES

[TomKat]

" I can't imagine what would world look like today if we let him do what he wanted to do."
Far, far better than it is now, no world bankers, Soros types, Gates types, Bush's, Clinton's etc.
In other words, just the way it is now.
We need a new Tesla or a genius like him.
It's time for a new person to emerge to the occasion. And it may happen or has
already happened.
ES


I've often wondered, if we were to go back in time and kill one person to improve humankind's lot, who would that be? I'm thinking Tesla would be a good candidate. He brought alien technology to Earth, causing human evolution to fork from a primarily spiritual base to a technological and materialistic one. His AC current made it feasible to implement the power grid that keeps everyone dependent. Without Tesla, we would probably have independent power sources in every home, running on 12 volts DC -- very low consumption, very independent, very hard for the govt to monitor and control. Because of Tesla's other inventions, governments are giddy with the possibility of controlling our every thought and action, and dream of destroying the human spirit altogether, with alien technology.

[aoibhghaire]

We all have the possibility and opportunity to reunite with our spiritual soul, the seemingly missing link, the part our heart longs and yearns for.

It is not another YOU search for, it is YOUR own entirety.

Our spiritual soul exists within our subconscious or unconscious, this means that our communication with it exists on a different realm than what we are consciously able to understand.

One must go beyond mind, thinking and trying to understand.

One simply observes and allows for alternate ways of relating and engaging in the abstract worlds of sounds, energy, frequency, sacred geometry, color, vibration, tones, the language of light and more.

[East Sun]

Thank you aoibhghaire.

You may not have had time to read all the posts and that's understandable.
Some did not get what I was asking. I was inquiring about "proof".

I have my own way of approaching these matters knowing that, it may
or may not be, the case as regards to anything.

I will not elaborate because Bill does not want things to be repeated
as he has made abundantly clear.

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated.

[East Sun]

" I can't imagine what would world look like today if we let him do what he wanted to do."
Far, far better than it is now, no world bankers, Soros types, Gates types, Bush's, Clinton's etc.
In other words, just the way it is now.
We need a new Tesla or a genius like him.
It's time for a new person to emerge to the occasion. And it may happen or has
already happened.
ES


I've often wondered, if we were to go back in time and kill one person to improve humankind's lot, who would that be? I'm thinking Tesla would be a good candidate. He brought alien technology to Earth, causing human evolution to fork from a primarily spiritual base to a technological and materialistic one. His AC current made it feasible to implement the power grid that keeps everyone dependent. Without Tesla, we would probably have independent power sources in every home, running on 12 volts DC -- very low consumption, very independent, very hard for the govt to monitor and control. Because of Tesla's other inventions, governments are giddy with the possibility of controlling our every thought and action, and dream of destroying the human spirit altogether, with alien technology.

It was the greedy ****'s of his day that exploited him unmercifully and destroyed him.
They destroyed genius literally.

[Jayke]

" I can't imagine what would world look like today if we let him do what he wanted to do."
Far, far better than it is now, no world bankers, Soros types, Gates types, Bush's, Clinton's etc.
In other words, just the way it is now.
We need a new Tesla or a genius like him.
It's time for a new person to emerge to the occasion. And it may happen or has
already happened.
ES


I've often wondered, if we were to go back in time and kill one person to improve humankind's lot, who would that be? I'm thinking Tesla would be a good candidate. He brought alien technology to Earth, causing human evolution to fork from a primarily spiritual base to a technological and materialistic one. His AC current made it feasible to implement the power grid that keeps everyone dependent. Without Tesla, we would probably have independent power sources in every home, running on 12 volts DC -- very low consumption, very independent, very hard for the govt to monitor and control. Because of Tesla's other inventions, governments are giddy with the possibility of controlling our every thought and action, and dream of destroying the human spirit altogether, with alien technology.

It was the greedy ****'s of his day that exploited him unmercifully and destroyed him.
They destroyed genius literally.

Tesla was a genius but he definitely wasn’t Martian. :ROFL:

He just represented the pinnacle of that 250 year tradition of scientific enquiry into the study of dielectrics (electro-statics) that was suppressed and hidden from the Western ‘electrical engineering’ curriculum.

What book is Tesla reading in this iconic photo?

https://galaksijanova.rs/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Picture1.png


https://teslaresearch.jimdofree.com/dynamic-theory-of-gravity/ruđer-josip-bošković-1711-1787/

========



Theory of natural philosophy - Boscovich PDF (http://fulir.irb.hr/281/1/theoryofnaturalphilosophyBoskovic.pdf)

In his modern scientific thinking about the structure of the universe, Boscovich was ahead of his time: He came to the conclusion that matter is composed of particles that have powers of attraction and repulsion, and in 1748, he proposed a model for the structure of the atom. In the 19th century, scientists were aware that Boscovich's theories of forces prefigured modern physics by nearly two centuries. British physicist Joseph John Thomson is said to have remarked that his own theory of the atom is pure "Boscovichian."

Quote from "Theoria Philosophiae Naturalis":


“It will be found that everything depends on the composition of the forces with which these particles of matter act upon one another: and from these forces, as a matter of fact, all phenomena of Nature take their origin”
=======

J.J. Thomson is another genius on par with Tesla that people rarely know or talk about. Eric Dollard has done a couple presentations on him (https://powerofaether.com) and tells us it was Thomson’s experimental research that was the basis for the black ops and secret space program technology.

Back to Boscovich though, on page 35 of Natural Philosophy (page 65 of the PDF version), Boscovich tells us he developed his insights by finding the middle ground of the systems proposed by Newton, and that proposed by Liebniz. Isaac Newton was an alchemist who studied hermeticism, and Liebnitz gave hints that his ideas were drawn from the Pythagorean tradition.

If we follow the lineage of ideas then, Tesla has more an Ancient Egyptian/Atlantean provenance rather than Martian. Certainly born of an earthly mind, just a mind immersed in a completely opposite paradigm of perception than what we’ve been indoctrinated into believing about the nature of physics today.

[O Donna]

The original OP title reminds me of this single panel cartoon. (Language and spirit, one hell of a marriage)

https://i.etsystatic.com/5244945/r/il/82419a/995609177/il_570xN.995609177_ambj.jpg

[Mare]

Hello everyone,

I can’t provide any proof for the OP, but I’ve recently finished reading Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives by Michael Newton and I can’t recommend it highly enough. A must-read for anyone interested in this fascinating subject.

The book itself was thrust into my hands by chance as I walked away from a job I’d worked at for many years. A job that had become an Albatross around my neck.

I’d decided for some time that I needed a change and after much careful consideration the stars aligned and I made my shock move. Unfortunately, at the worst time in human history, slap-bang into a world in lockdown. The work that I had so painstakingly lined up suddenly dried up. Then followed two months of unemployment.That’s a lot of time for hand-wringing and wondering ‘why me?’.

The funny thing is though, throughout the whole experience I felt nothing but sublime positivity against all the odds. A resolute certainty that everything is for a reason, and everything will be ok in the end.

Journey of Souls is a record of 29 carefully selected cases of people who recall their experiences as souls between their physical deaths during hypnotherapy sessions with Dr Newton, founder of The Newton Institute of Life between Lives hypnotherapy.

Through their extraordinary stories we learn not only what we experience when we die and what we experience during the processes of birth, but also how we experience life outside the physical body in between incarnations. This is the place where the real you exists. It confirmed much of what I already thought but left me with so much more to wonder at. Souls trying to describe what they think The Creator is are equally as fascinating but no spoilers here!

I came to appreciate the roles of spirit guides, why we are assigned to soul groups (a group we return to again and again after each incarnation) and I also gained an insight into why we choose the body and life we now find ourselves in, and why mandatory amnesia at birth is essential.

The earth by contrast is an action planet, a rowdy dynamic playhouse. We parachute in, adapt to our roles as best we can and try to stick to the script! I could not stop thinking of the lines from Shakespeare’s comedy ‘As You Like It’.

“All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts ... “

Even the bodies we choose have agendas of their own. Our Neanderthal brains lusty, territorial and wired for occasional violence(in thought if not in deed). Ancestral traits in our DNA only add to the trials of life. We get kudos from other souls who have never been earth-bound for just coming here.

I would say it’s the most comprehensive study I’ve read so far on life after death with over 30 years worth of carefully selected case-studies. All appear to paint the same dazzling pictures of a vast, wondrous universe of love, light, beauty and intelligence.

Our humble language can only hint at its glory, and for me personally it’s been like finding the missing piece to the jigsaw. It’s a book that has drawn in so many seemingly disparate notions of my own, formulated haphazardly over the years from countless sources and bound them together in a deeply meaningful way. A eureka moment on every page!

Sometimes it’s extremely moving, sometimes laugh out loud. It has made me question myself too. My motives, my relationship with others, my ego and what my soul is here to learn in this present incarnation.

I came to the conclusion by the end of it that nothing is by chance, not even a colleague shoving a book into your hands as you walk out of the workplace for the last time.

We are here to learn to forgive. To show kindness, love and compassion to our fellow man and woman, and to try and leave our world a better place than we found it.

That it seems is the script. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

[East Sun]

Thank you Mare,

My post was about asking members if they believed we have a spirit, soul etc. in their view
and if there is proof. The thread went round in circles on and on.

I really appreciate your reply. I may read that book.
Thanks.

I hope this leads to you finding what you wish for most.

ES

[Ernie Nemeth]

About soul groups:

When I was a teenager, I had an experience like no other. I left my body, and found myself in the middle of a circle of beings. In those moments my amnesia lifted and I remembered who I truly was. I knew a lot more than I would otherwise, actually it was more like I forgot my usual self and remembered my essence. I cannot remember what was discussed, except it was about me. I was given instruction, I was filled with light, I was suffused with love. I was home with my family.

Then I realized I was going to go back, and I was sad. And then terrified. I begged not to be sent back. But then I relaxed into the necessity of it. The last thing I remember was being extremely proud of my heritage, of the paramount importance of my mission. And then I was back with my friends, with my girlfriend on my arm, riding in a car to the next party...

[Mare]

You’ve started a really interesting thread here East Sun but you sound disappointed by it. None of us can prove anything of course and I’m sure you know that, but we can share something of what many of us feel. I think a lot of us, judging by the responses, are enjoying the opportunity.

[NX.P]

This is sort of like an atheist saying to a Buddhist, "I don't believe in god" and the Bhuddist replying "What do you mean by 'god'?".

[DeDukshyn]

I don't have proof that I (or any human) can't light a fire with just energy from my hands ... but even without that proof, I know it would be foolish to try to start a fire that way.

The concept of "proof" in order to define a reality is flawed within itself. Therefore the "requirement" of proof to define reality is an erroneous assumption ... perhaps you are approaching the entire idea incorrectly, East Sun ... give that a thought ...

[Patient]

For me, I have been shown through a few different experiences that we indeed do have a life after death and that we have connections to other family spirits, souls, or whatever.

I beleive that we are not meant to know for certain that we are eternal. Knowing, without a doubt, that there is life beyond your current state on this planet changes how you feel about things. It makes a very big difference to how you look at life.

For myself, I have to often try not to think about what I have learned, because it can make you so benevolent that many things do not tend to matter anymore.

We have to keep working hard in this life term or we have wasted it.

This is a difficult thing to fully describe. If anyone wants more info from me about this, just ask and I will be happy to answer/reply as best I can.

I tend to think that many people have had experiences for them to learn things themselves, but they might not be ready to accept some things, for whatever reason.

[Harmony]

For me, I have been shown through a few different experiences that we indeed do have a life after death and that we have connections to other family spirits, souls, or whatever.

I beleive that we are not meant to know for certain that we are eternal. Knowing, without a doubt, that there is life beyond your current state on this planet changes how you feel about things. It makes a very big difference to how you look at life.

For myself, I have to often try not to think about what I have learned, because it can make you so benevolent that many things do not tend to matter anymore.

We have to keep working hard in this life term or we have wasted it.

This is a difficult thing to fully describe. If anyone wants more info from me about this, just ask and I will be happy to answer/reply as best I can.

I tend to think that many people have had experiences for them to learn things themselves, but they might not be ready to accept some things, for whatever reason.

Dear Patient,

I would love to hear anything you would like to share.⚘

[East Sun]

You’ve started a really interesting thread here East Sun but you sound disappointed by it. None of us can prove anything of course and I’m sure you know that, but we can share something of what many of us feel. I think a lot of us, judging by the responses, are enjoying the opportunity.

You are right, I was disappointed not because of proof but during the ongoing thread there was controversy about incorrect posting that I thought correctly or incorrectly might have been hinting at my thread or my posts.

Paranoia, perhaps, but that's what I was concerned about.
ES

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Hello everyone,

I can’t provide any proof for the OP, but I’ve recently finished reading Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives by Michael Newton and I can’t recommend it highly enough. A must-read for anyone interested in this fascinating subject.

Yes absolutely, a must read for anyone interested in this, I'd even go so far to say a must read for everyone, on Earth, who can read. It's on the list (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111417-Do-we-have-a-Spirit-Do-we-have-a-Soul-And-where-s-the-proof&p=1366940&viewfull=1#post1366940) I posted back on page 5, with other very important titles. If you liked and enjoyed Journey of Souls, Newton followed up with Destiny of Souls (https://www.amazon.com/Destiny-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184995/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=destiny+of+souls&qid=1595774332&s=books&sr=1-1), which is deeper, more detailed, and an even better read.

[Wind]

Hello everyone,

I can’t provide any proof for the OP, but I’ve recently finished reading Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives by Michael Newton and I can’t recommend it highly enough. A must-read for anyone interested in this fascinating subject.

Yes absolutely, a must read for anyone interested in this, I'd even go so far to say a must read for everyone, on Earth, who can read. It's on the list (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111417-Do-we-have-a-Spirit-Do-we-have-a-Soul-And-where-s-the-proof&p=1366940&viewfull=1#post1366940) I posted back on page 5, with other very important titles. If you liked and enjoyed Journey of Souls, Newton followed up with Destiny of Souls (https://www.amazon.com/Destiny-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184995/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=destiny+of+souls&qid=1595774332&s=books&sr=1-1), which is deeper, more detailed, and an even better read.

Those were the books that really started my awakening journey.
After realizing that reincarnation is real, I got further into different rabbit holes.

Here's an interview of Michael Newton about the subject.

Vk5bSG78pbQ

[Ewan]

Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul?

Nomenclature, the two things are basically synonymous - unless you are deeply invested in a particular school of thought.


And where's the proof?

The proof is apparent for those that have had 'experiences' and cannot be adequately shared. They are often extremely personal and are perhaps the ultimate 'Catch 22'.

However, sharing your experience with a potentially receptive individual is akin to a quote attributed to the historical figure often refered to as Jesus, that suggested, "Some seeds fall on stony grounds... etc".

I am curious, have all the various replies led you to reconsider the feelings that prompted you to start the thread?

[meeradas]

This must be included here,

just for the fun of "boring East Sun to death" (of course, not to be taken literally),
because it's completely "proof-less"; and for all who do not know it, yet (it's a gem):

dFyt4ejRiJI

If you want to "know what i know", go here (https://youtu.be/dFyt4ejRiJI?t=3448) and listen (https://youtu.be/dFyt4ejRiJI?t=4453)close

[East Sun]

Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul?

Nomenclature, the two things are basically synonymous - unless you are deeply invested in a particular school of thought.


And where's the proof?

The proof is apparent for those that have had 'experiences' and cannot be adequately shared. They are often extremely personal and are perhaps the ultimate 'Catch 22'.

However, sharing your experience with a potentially receptive individual is akin to a quote attributed to the historical figure often refered to as Jesus, that suggested, "Some seeds fall on stony grounds... etc".

I am curious, have all the various replies led you to reconsider the feelings that prompted you to start the thread?

As I stated earlier, I was curious, asking questions, to see what others thought about my questions that I had asked
myself, for ever.

Most people do ask the same questions, for a variety of reasons, even when they know what they believe already.
ES

[East Sun]

This must be included here,

just for the fun of "boring East Sun to death" (of course, not to be taken literally),
because it's completely "proof-less"; and for all who do not know it, yet (it's a gem):

dFyt4ejRiJI

If you want to "know what i know", go here (https://youtu.be/dFyt4ejRiJI?t=3448) and listen close

Yes--"PROOF-LESS"


Who's Driving the Dreambus?

We all are...........together.................

ES

[East Sun]

Thank you Wind.

Incredibly interesting. Food for thought, much thought.
I've read a lot of books on this over the years and mostly forgot
what they said. You can read too much and need to take time
out to contemplate on what you learned, maybe for years.

ES

[Mare]

Michael Newton in A Journey of Souls suggests that one soul can inhabit two different people living in different parts of the world simultaneously, although it’s not common.

[East Sun]

Michael Newton in A Journey of Souls suggests that one soul can inhabit two different people living in different parts of the world simultaneously, although it’s not common.

He seems to be very proficient in his analysis. I wish I could be regressed by him.
Is he still around to be contacted? If anyone knows please let me know.
I would really appreciate it.

ES

[Wind]

He seems to be very proficient in his analysis. I wish I could be regressed by him.
Is he still around to be contacted? If anyone knows please let me know.

Unfortunately he journeyed back to the spirit world in 2016. He has trained plenty of people though.

[meeradas]

Michael Newton in A Journey of Souls suggests that one soul can inhabit two different people living in different parts of the world simultaneously, although it’s not common.

He seems to be very proficient in his analysis. I wish I could be regressed by him.
Is he still around to be contacted? If anyone knows please let me know.
I would really appreciate it.

ES

Now, that made me happy!
Congrats for an open door!

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Sometimes, proof can be found in the stories of others.

wTW0q782llc

[East Sun]

Maybe it's a case of, Ask and you shall receive. Maybe I was
asking in my post. Well, I'm always asking for to remember dreams,
and seldom do remember them.


I repeatedly do a mantra of my own
asking to know, know what you may ask, just to know ? truth? or
whatever I should know.

That's followed by, I want to help, on and on till I fall asleep.

My door is open, maybe why I look out at the world with awe.

ES

.

[palehorse]

I found this movie very interesting, the message is very clear and loud. Maybe there is a better thread to share it, but I think it fits here as well.
http://www.kylelambert.com/gallery/muse-simulation-theory-print/images/muse_simulation_theory_print_web.jpg



Michael Newton in A Journey of Souls suggests that one soul can inhabit two different people living in different parts of the world simultaneously, although it’s not common.

quantum physics?

[Chris Gilbert]

In terms of personal experience, I'll say that my wife's relatives who have passed on show up quite often, and have even tried to communicate with us. Her father has a warmer, more distinct presence, and the messages I've perceived from him have been clearer. If I had to guess, I would say it was because he had attained greater self-awareness and actualization while alive.

Also, in the Taoist Neigong lineage I practice, there is a direct experience (more kinesthetic than visual for me) of connecting to an expanded sense of self and other lives. However, with it also comes an experience of non-linear time. When you experience that, questions of afterlife, reincarnation and even regular memory, all relate more to the linear perspective, and seem less relevant. For that reason, I don't worry as much about what will happen to me after death as I once might have.

In terms of outside experience, I find the evidence from NDEs and studies from spiritualism over the past century fairly conclusive. There are stories as well from both my teacher and other spiritual lineages of teachers who passed on being able to manifest with more clarity and presence than the average human spirit.

However, both earthbound spirits and "ascended" teachers do eventually seem to fade away, so the final destination of linear time personality is still uncertain. I would say that we return to the expanded non-linear self, and that the experiences relayed by those on the other side are partially born from the process they go through of integrating the linear with the non-linear, the finite with the eternal.

[O Donna]

Do we have a Spirit?


In a metaphysical sense, depends on who you ask.

[Anka]

https://bukowskiforum.com/attachments/understand-me-jpg.8513/

[ExomatrixTV]

See also:


Growing Scientific Evidence That The Soul Continues After Death (NDE) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?112055-Growing-Scientific-Evidence-That-The-Soul-Continues-After-Death--NDE-)



¤=[Post Update]=¤

Is "Soul Intelligence/Awareness" beyond heavy conditioned "Brain Intelligence"?

[onawah]

I've just discovered the work of Dr. Michael Newton about what happens in between lives, and am intrigued.
I'm listening to the audiobook of Journey of Souls here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YJiYEiGg3c
Can anyone tell me if any of the subjects of this regression technique referred to "the False Light", or ETs or other entities who attempted to misguide or misdirect them on their journey between lives?

As to the original questions of this thread--I don't know exactly what the difference is between spirit and soul if there is one, but I will just say I have no doubt about the existence of the soul (as it were) and in reincarnation, and have met members of my soul group in this life whom I know I have known in past lives.
The Michael Teachings have always made a lot of sense to me: https://www.michaelteachings.com/
I had an amazing reading once with a medium who was able, with no input from me, to connect with the souls of people I had known in this life who had passed and who had messages for me which made perfect sense.
I had a NDE after a very traumatic injury, but didn't have the tunnel to the bright white light experience.
Rather, I was in a very dark and terrifying place for a short time, though it seemed like an eternity to me, until two spiritual friends arrived at the ER and pulled me back into my body.
I think this probably happens more to people who have nearly died suddenly in pain and trauma, whereas those who make a more natural, gradual transition towards death and back have a more positive experience.
And those who die in trauma are more likely to linger as ghosts, apparently, as the shock of trauma fractures their energy bodies.

Don Juan Matus, Carlos Castaneda's mentor, spoke of souls who incarnate into 2 separate bodies at the same time, and said that if they should meet, the consequences would be disastrous.
At least, that is what I think he was referring to when he referred to what he termed "the Double".


Hello everyone,

I can’t provide any proof for the OP, but I’ve recently finished reading Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives by Michael Newton and I can’t recommend it highly enough. A must-read for anyone interested in this fascinating subject.

The book itself was thrust into my hands by chance as I walked away from a job I’d worked at for many years. A job that had become an Albatross around my neck.

I’d decided for some time that I needed a change and after much careful consideration the stars aligned and I made my shock move. Unfortunately, at the worst time in human history, slap-bang into a world in lockdown. The work that I had so painstakingly lined up suddenly dried up. Then followed two months of unemployment.That’s a lot of time for hand-wringing and wondering ‘why me?’.

The funny thing is though, throughout the whole experience I felt nothing but sublime positivity against all the odds. A resolute certainty that everything is for a reason, and everything will be ok in the end.

Journey of Souls is a record of 29 carefully selected cases of people who recall their experiences as souls between their physical deaths during hypnotherapy sessions with Dr Newton, founder of The Newton Institute of Life between Lives hypnotherapy.

Through their extraordinary stories we learn not only what we experience when we die and what we experience during the processes of birth, but also how we experience life outside the physical body in between incarnations. This is the place where the real you exists. It confirmed much of what I already thought but left me with so much more to wonder at. Souls trying to describe what they think The Creator is are equally as fascinating but no spoilers here!

I came to appreciate the roles of spirit guides, why we are assigned to soul groups (a group we return to again and again after each incarnation) and I also gained an insight into why we choose the body and life we now find ourselves in, and why mandatory amnesia at birth is essential.

The earth by contrast is an action planet, a rowdy dynamic playhouse. We parachute in, adapt to our roles as best we can and try to stick to the script! I could not stop thinking of the lines from Shakespeare’s comedy ‘As You Like It’.

“All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts ... “

Even the bodies we choose have agendas of their own. Our Neanderthal brains lusty, territorial and wired for occasional violence(in thought if not in deed). Ancestral traits in our DNA only add to the trials of life. We get kudos from other souls who have never been earth-bound for just coming here.

I would say it’s the most comprehensive study I’ve read so far on life after death with over 30 years worth of carefully selected case-studies. All appear to paint the same dazzling pictures of a vast, wondrous universe of love, light, beauty and intelligence.

Our humble language can only hint at its glory, and for me personally it’s been like finding the missing piece to the jigsaw. It’s a book that has drawn in so many seemingly disparate notions of my own, formulated haphazardly over the years from countless sources and bound them together in a deeply meaningful way. A eureka moment on every page!

Sometimes it’s extremely moving, sometimes laugh out loud. It has made me question myself too. My motives, my relationship with others, my ego and what my soul is here to learn in this present incarnation.

I came to the conclusion by the end of it that nothing is by chance, not even a colleague shoving a book into your hands as you walk out of the workplace for the last time.

We are here to learn to forgive. To show kindness, love and compassion to our fellow man and woman, and to try and leave our world a better place than we found it.

That it seems is the script. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Can anyone explain why mandatory amnesia at birth may be essential?



Hello everyone,
I came to appreciate the roles of spirit guides, why we are assigned to soul groups (a group we return to again and again after each incarnation) and I also gained an insight into why we choose the body and life we now find ourselves in, and why mandatory amnesia at birth is essential.

.
My personal feeling at the moment is:


46736

[Spellbound]

I believe we have a soul / spirit. The body is temporary....the soul is infinite. I don't buy into religion but I do believe in the soul (and it's importance).

Dave - Toronto

[onawah]

I think at this point in time the amnesia is so intense because we are at the negative end of a long cycle.
I doubt that it's this bad all the time, or we would probably never agree to incarnate into 3D reality at all!


Can anyone explain why mandatory amnesia at birth may be essential?



Hello everyone,
I came to appreciate the roles of spirit guides, why we are assigned to soul groups (a group we return to again and again after each incarnation) and I also gained an insight into why we choose the body and life we now find ourselves in, and why mandatory amnesia at birth is essential.

.
My personal feeling at the moment is:


46736

[rgray222]

Can anyone explain why mandatory amnesia at birth may be essential?


Without amnesia, we would never really reincarnate. We would be living into eternity (or the same life each time we reincarnate) with short breaks after each human body we occupy dies. I have no desire to live any form of eternal life. If I am going to reincarnate I hope each reincarnation is exponentially different. It may have some similarities and maybe a few things might spill into the next iteration but I truly hope it is incomparable to all previous lives.

[Hym]

Can anyone explain why mandatory amnesia at birth may be essential?



Hello everyone,
I came to appreciate the roles of spirit guides, why we are assigned to soul groups (a group we return to again and again after each incarnation) and I also gained an insight into why we choose the body and life we now find ourselves in, and why mandatory amnesia at birth is essential.

.
My personal feeling at the moment is:


46736

I agree with the sentiment Ron.
When a seer, a very insightful writer, after years past from our last conversations, went out of his way to meet me, and tell me that
I "had no right to get involved with the emotions of humans" because I was/am 'a warrior', I recall the ability we all have to draw in the memories....
and at the same time be alive in the creation of new memories forever with us...

As bright as my memories are, so also is the awareness that traveling deeper can just as well be a diversion from the vivid and super conscious living always with us...

The force of spirit, when realized, is more powerful than chemical amnesia and the pre-birth vibrational memory removal.

[Free Thinker]

One does not need definitive "proof" to know that we do in fact, have a soul, spirit, Higher Self, etc. If you want "proof" in the sense of measuring and decoding and whatnot, you won't find it, and thus are barking up the wrong tree as it is. Tis' not the point.

Really, one only needs to have a deep sense of awareness, that experience of LIFE to know that we very much do have a soul, spirit, etc. beyond the shadow of any doubt. It's as simple (and profound!) as that.

And no worries, I am not one for religious jargon either. I never was.

[TomKat]

I think the important question is: Do you HAVE a soul or ARE you a soul? Big, big difference. Yes, a body HAS a soul, but is that soul YOU?

I admit, I don't know for certain myself.

[Free Thinker]

I think the important question is: Do you HAVE a soul or ARE you a soul? Big, big difference. Yes, a body HAS a soul, but is that soul YOU?

I admit, I don't know for certain myself.

Much better stated than what I had said. Kudos to you on that.

Edited: Regarding the first part of my statement, that is. :)

[TomKat]

I think the important question is: Do you HAVE a soul or ARE you a soul? Big, big difference. Yes, a body HAS a soul, but is that soul YOU?

I admit, I don't know for certain myself.

Much better stated than what I had said. Kudos to you on that.

Edited: Regarding the first part of my statement, that is. :)

Based on a lifetime of exorcisms, my conundrum is this. Spirits attach to human bodies, not just at birth, but they accumulate well into adulthood. The personality of the human changes as a result of each attachment. As we exorcise these spirits the personality gradually reverts toward that of childhood. Does that mean that the birth spirit is the REAL person? Or does that mean that the body is the real person, and it just THINKS that it's whatever spirit is in its auric field? Is the spirit (software) the source or is the body (hardware) the source of life?

My experience says that it's a little of both: The birth spirit gradually BECOMES the body, without which the body would die. But with a hostile childhood environment, the birth spirit loses partial ability to BE that body, that person, inviting attachment by other spirits. This is further exacerbated by sexual and religious shaming. And that's how we get teenagers!

[Ernie Nemeth]

If the soul is the greater part of a human's identity, stretching back to before birth and beyond, then when we die, the thing we thought we were will dissolve and be no more.

It must be so because the thing we think we are cannot contain the truth of our selves. What we are precludes these bodies.

[Free Thinker]

I think the important question is: Do you HAVE a soul or ARE you a soul? Big, big difference. Yes, a body HAS a soul, but is that soul YOU?

I admit, I don't know for certain myself.

Much better stated than what I had said. Kudos to you on that.

Edited: Regarding the first part of my statement, that is. :)

Based on a lifetime of exorcisms, my conundrum is this. Spirits attach to human bodies, not just at birth, but they accumulate well into adulthood. The personality of the human changes as a result of each attachment. As we exorcise these spirits the personality gradually reverts toward that of childhood. Does that mean that the birth spirit is the REAL person? Or does that mean that the body is the real person, and it just THINKS that it's whatever spirit is in its auric field? Is the spirit (software) the source or is the body (hardware) the source of life?

My experience says that it's a little of both: The birth spirit gradually BECOMES the body, without which the body would die. But with a hostile childhood environment, the birth spirit loses partial ability to BE that body, that person, inviting attachment by other spirits. This is further exacerbated by sexual and religious shaming. And that's how we get teenagers!

I feel this is only partially true, Tomkat. One's life experiences change them - ultimately either for the better or the worst. Based on my current understanding, there may very well be something to what you said about the birth spirit ultimately winning out, though what/how you said it seems to exclude what came after, so I am not in total agreement there. But that's okay. :)

We're all on this journey called LIFE. :flower: :heart::bigsmile::star:

[Patient]

And depending upon your definition of a soul - some people do, and some don't.

I am sure that it has to be earned.

[TomKat]

And depending upon your definition of a soul - some people do, and some don't.

I am sure that it has to be earned.

That's another thing I'm not certain of. To me, spirit seems more mental, and holds the identity, located in the head. Whereas soul seems to encompass the heart and at least one chakra above and below that. Seems like the spirit occupies the soul which in turn occupies the body. According to some Taoist writing I've seen, at death the spirit goes up to "heaven" and the soul goes down to "earth." A true, complete unity of spirit and soul might be what Jesus was teaching. There's a book called Division of Consciousness that ponders this:
https://www.amazon.com/Division-Consciousness-Secret-Afterlife-Psyche/dp/1571740538

[Patient]

And depending upon your definition of a soul - some people do, and some don't.

I am sure that it has to be earned.

That's another thing I'm not certain of. To me, spirit seems more mental, and holds the identity, located in the head. Whereas soul seems to encompass the heart and at least one chakra above and below that. Seems like the spirit occupies the soul which in turn occupies the body. According to some Taoist writing I've seen, at death the spirit goes up to "heaven" and the soul goes down to "earth." A true, complete unity of spirit and soul might be what Jesus was teaching. There's a book called Division of Consciousness that ponders this:
https://www.amazon.com/Division-Consciousness-Secret-Afterlife-Psyche/dp/1571740538

...you also have to wonder - will we ever know?

I think that there will always be an opportunity to be better than we are at any time, in any stage of existence.

[Antagenet]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

My proof is that I remember how it felt to exist in a place that is not earth, before I was born here.

[Ti]

My proof is that I remember how it felt to exist in a place that is not earth, before I was born here.
Indeed. It's no proof to anyone else, but I too remember and that's good enough for me to feel confident that I'm a soul steering a body.

[TomKat]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

My proof is that I remember how it felt to exist in a place that is not earth, before I was born here.

I've gotten rid of enough attached entities to know that their memories can feel like my own while they're attached.

[Ernie Nemeth]

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

My proof is that I remember how it felt to exist in a place that is not earth, before I was born here.

I've gotten rid of enough attached entities to know that their memories can feel like my own while they're attached.


Funny. I imagine this being said by a puppet, while its strings make its arms and legs jerk around involuntarily...show me the proof!

By the way, the proof is inside, not outside. Therefore the proof is subjective, always will be. So in the context of this line of expectation the 'show me the proof' adage borders on petulance. It is the classic Doubting Thomas parable.

'Show me the proof' by the thing that is the proof, priceless.

[TomKat]

I've gotten rid of enough attached entities to know that their memories can feel like my own while they're attached.


Funny. I imagine this being said by a puppet, while its strings make its arms and legs jerk around involuntarily...show me the proof!

By the way, the proof is inside, not outside. Therefore the proof is subjective, always will be. So in the context of this line of expectation the 'show me the proof' adage borders on petulance. It is the classic Doubting Thomas parable.

'Show me the proof' by the thing that is the proof, priceless.

Your meaning is lost in all the complicated sarcasm and referencing of things in only your own mind. Try again?

[Ernie Nemeth]

I agree it was a tad rude. Sorry. Must have been having one of those days...

My point was that the body is all we know. It is our ground, our reference point, our one constant. When we speak of spirit or soul, we speak of a thing we have no direct knowledge of and so we fall back to what we do know, the body. But the soul is not the body and it has an entirely unique coherence, very much different than the body. Because its aspects are subtle and somewhat tenuous, its relationship to the body is also sublime.

The soul is inward, deep inside, at the core of our beings. Similarly, Spirit resides within and connects us all to one Source. The soul is the 'driver of the bus', the animating aspect of the body. Spirit is the observer, forever silent and serene, at one and at peace.

The difference between soul and Spirit is the soul was created in the likeness of Spirit. Spirit always was, is and will be.