A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19, and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged

[Frank V]

Source: Elemental (https://elemental.medium.com/a-supercomputer-analyzed-covid-19-and-an-interesting-new-theory-has-emerged-31cb8eba9d63)




A closer look at the Bradykinin hypothesis


https://cdn.rentokil.com/content/local/be-amb/images/desktop/main_rentokil-coronavirus-web-banner.jpg


Earlier this summer, the Summit supercomputer at Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee set about crunching data (https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/computing/hardware/has-the-summit-supercomputer-cracked-the-covid-code.amp.html) on more than 40,000 genes from 17,000 genetic samples in an effort to better understand Covid-19 (https://coronavirus.medium.com/). Summit is the second-fastest (https://www.top500.org/) computer in the world, but the process — which involved analyzing 2.5 billion genetic combinations — still took more than a week.

When Summit was done, researchers analyzed the results. It was, in the words of Dr. Daniel Jacobson, lead researcher and chief scientist for computational systems biology at Oak Ridge, a “eureka moment (https://www.forbes.com/sites/cognitiveworld/2020/08/05/your-lungs-can-fill-up-with-jell-o-scientists-discover-a-new-pathway-for-covid-19-inflammatory-response/#1c4172e824be).” The computer had revealed a new theory about how Covid-19 impacts the body: the bradykinin hypothesis (https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/is-a-bradykinin-storm-brewing-in-covid-19--67876). The hypothesis provides a model that explains many aspects of Covid-19, including some of its most bizarre symptoms (https://elemental.medium.com/every-covid-19-symptom-we-know-about-right-now-from-head-to-toe-bd1d47584096). It also suggests 10-plus potential treatments, many of which are already FDA approved. Jacobson’s group published their results (https://elifesciences.org/articles/59177) in a paper in the journal eLife in early July.

According to the team’s findings, a Covid-19 infection generally begins when the virus enters the body through ACE2 receptors in the nose, (The receptors, which the virus is known to target (https://www.wired.com/story/meet-ace2-the-enzyme-at-the-center-of-the-covid-19-mystery/), are abundant there.) The virus then proceeds through the body, entering cells in other places where ACE2 is also present: the intestines, kidneys, and heart. This likely accounts for at least some of the disease’s cardiac and GI symptoms.

But once Covid-19 has established itself in the body, things start to get really interesting. According to Jacobson’s group, the data Summit analyzed shows that Covid-19 isn’t content to simply infect cells that already express lots of ACE2 receptors. Instead, it actively hijacks the body’s own systems, tricking it into upregulating ACE2 receptors in places where they’re usually expressed at low or medium levels (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7186534/), including the lungs.

In this sense, Covid-19 is like a burglar who slips in your unlocked second-floor window and starts to ransack your house. Once inside, though, they don’t just take your stuff — they also throw open all your doors and windows so their accomplices can rush in and help pillage more efficiently.

The renin–angiotensin system (RAS) controls many aspects of the circulatory system, including the body’s levels of a chemical called bradykinin, which normally helps to regulate blood pressure. According to the team’s analysis, when the virus tweaks the RAS, it causes the body’s mechanisms for regulating bradykinin to go haywire. Bradykinin receptors are resensitized, and the body also stops effectively breaking down bradykinin. (ACE normally degrades bradykinin, but when the virus downregulates it, it can’t do this as effectively.)

The end result, the researchers say, is to release a bradykinin storm — a massive, runaway buildup of bradykinin in the body. According to the bradykinin hypothesis, it’s this storm that is ultimately responsible for many of Covid-19’s deadly effects. Jacobson’s team says in their paper that “the pathology of Covid-19 is likely the result of Bradykinin Storms rather than cytokine storms,” which had been previously identified (https://elemental.medium.com/this-is-how-your-immune-system-reacts-to-coronavirus-cbf5271e530e) in Covid-19 patients, but that “the two may be intricately linked.” Other papers (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7267506/) had previously identified bradykinin storms as a possible cause of Covid-19’s pathologies.

As bradykinin builds up in the body, it dramatically increases vascular permeability. In short, it makes your blood vessels leaky. This aligns with recent clinical data, which increasingly views Covid-19 primarily as a vascular disease (https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2), rather than a respiratory one. But Covid-19 still has a massive effect on the lungs. As blood vessels start to leak due to a bradykinin storm, the researchers say, the lungs can fill with fluid. Immune cells also leak out into the lungs, Jacobson’s team found, causing inflammation.

And Covid-19 has another especially insidious trick. Through another pathway, the team’s data shows, it increases production of hyaluronic acid (HLA) in the lungs. HLA is often used in soaps and lotions (https://www.allure.com/story/what-is-hyaluronic-acid-skin-care) for its ability to absorb more than 1,000 times its weight in fluid. When it combines with fluid leaking into the lungs, the results are disastrous: It forms a hydrogel, which can fill the lungs in some patients (https://www.azolifesciences.com/news/20200729/Supercomputer-analyses-point-to-a-new-pathway-for-COVID-19-inflammatory-response.aspx). According to Jacobson, once this happens, “it’s like trying to breathe through Jell-O (https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-gene-pathway-covid-inflammatory-response.html).”

This may explain why ventilators have proven less effective (https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/21/coronavirus-analysis-recommends-less-reliance-on-ventilators/) in treating advanced Covid-19 than doctors originally expected, based on experiences with other viruses. “It reaches a point where regardless of how much oxygen you pump in, it doesn’t matter, because the alveoli in the lungs are filled with this hydrogel,” Jacobson says. “The lungs become like a water balloon.” Patients can suffocate even while receiving full breathing support.

The bradykinin hypothesis also extends to many of Covid-19’s effects on the heart. About one in five hospitalized Covid-19 patients (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heart-damage-in-covid-19-patients-puzzles-doctors/) have damage to their hearts, even if they never had cardiac issues before. Some of this is likely due to the virus infecting the heart directly through its ACE2 receptors. But the RAS also controls aspects of cardiac contractions and blood pressure. According to the researchers, bradykinin storms could create arrhythmias and low blood pressure, which are often seen in Covid-19 patients.

The bradykinin hypothesis also accounts for Covid-19’s neurological effects (https://elemental.medium.com/what-covid-19-did-to-my-brain-2c8ee0b64c6e), which are some of the most surprising and concerning elements of the disease. These symptoms (https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-basics) (which include dizziness, seizures, delirium, and stroke) are present in as many as half of hospitalized Covid-19 patients (https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86926). According to Jacobson and his team, MRI studies in France revealed that many Covid-19 patients have evidence of leaky blood vessels in their brains.

Bradykinin — especially at high doses — can also lead to a breakdown of the blood-brain barrier (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0169409X9500004Q#:~:text=Bradykinin%20is%20a%20very%20powerful,-brain%20barrier%20%5B34%5D.). Under normal circumstances, this barrier acts as a filter (https://qbi.uq.edu.au/brain/brain-anatomy/what-blood-brain-barrier) between your brain and the rest of your circulatory system. It lets in the nutrients and small molecules that the brain needs to function, while keeping out toxins and pathogens and keeping the brain’s internal environment tightly regulated.

If bradykinin storms cause the blood-brain barrier to break down, this could allow harmful cells and compounds into the brain, leading to inflammation, potential brain damage, and many of the neurological symptoms Covid-19 patients experience. Jacobson told me, “It is a reasonable hypothesis that many of the neurological symptoms in Covid-19 could be due to an excess of bradykinin. It has been reported that bradykinin would indeed be likely to increase the permeability of the blood-brain barrier. In addition, similar neurological symptoms have been observed in other diseases that result from an excess of bradykinin.”

Increased bradykinin levels could also account for other common Covid-19 symptoms. ACE inhibitors — a class of drugs used to treat high blood pressure (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-pressure/in-depth/ace-inhibitors/art-20047480) — have a similar effect on the RAS system as Covid-19, increasing bradykinin levels (https://cvpharmacology.com/vasodilator/ACE#:~:text=ACE%20inhibitors%20produce%20vasodilation%20by%20inhibiting%20the%20formation%20of%20ang iotensin%20II.&text=ACE%20also%20breaks%20down%20bradykinin,vasodilator%20action%20of%20ACE%20inhibitors.). In fact, Jacobson and his team note in their paper that “the virus… acts pharmacologically as an ACE inhibitor” — almost directly mirroring the actions of these drugs.

By acting like a natural ACE inhibitor, Covid-19 may be causing (https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m406/rr-27) the same effects that hypertensive patients sometimes get when they take blood pressure–lowering drugs. ACE inhibitors are known to cause (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-pressure/in-depth/ace-inhibitors/art-20047480) a dry cough and fatigue, two textbook symptoms of Covid-19. And they can potentially increase blood potassium levels, which has also been observed in Covid-19 patients (https://medium.com/beingwell/in-some-patients-with-covid-19-the-blood-potassium-levels-are-high-f1ef9f65e9cf). The similarities between ACE inhibitor side effects and Covid-19 symptoms strengthen the bradykinin hypothesis, the researchers say.

ACE inhibitors are also known to cause a loss of taste and smell (https://coronavirus.medium.com/a-new-study-explains-why-covid-19-causes-a-loss-of-smell-e3f9e7082bdd). Jacobson stresses, though, that this symptom is more likely due to the virus “affecting the cells surrounding olfactory nerve cells” than the direct effects of bradykinin.

Though still an emerging theory, the bradykinin hypothesis explains several other of Covid-19’s seemingly bizarre symptoms. Jacobson and his team speculate that leaky vasculature caused by bradykinin storms could be responsible for “Covid toes (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/health/coronavirus-covid-toe.html),” a condition involving swollen, bruised toes that some Covid-19 patients experience. Bradykinin can also mess with the thyroid gland (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1665827/), which could produce the thyroid symptoms (https://elemental.medium.com/the-coronavirus-may-mess-with-thyroid-levels-too-87f94e45c5c9) recently observed in some patients.

The bradykinin hypothesis could also explain some of the broader demographic patterns of the disease’s spread. The researchers note that some aspects of the RAS system are sex-linked, with proteins for several receptors (such as one called TMSB4X) located on the X chromosome. This means that “women… would have twice the levels of this protein than men,” a result borne out by the researchers’ data. In their paper, Jacobson’s team concludes that this “could explain the lower incidence of Covid-19 induced mortality in women.” A genetic quirk of the RAS could be giving women extra protection against the disease (https://coronavirus.medium.com/why-do-men-fare-worse-with-covid-19-a5debff87dc1).

The bradykinin hypothesis provides a model that “contributes to a better understanding of Covid-19” and “adds novelty to the existing literature,” according to scientists Frank van de Veerdonk, Jos WM van der Meer, and Roger Little, who peer-reviewed the team’s paper (https://elifesciences.org/articles/59177). It predicts nearly all the disease’s symptoms, even ones (like bruises on the toes) that at first appear random, and further suggests new treatments for the disease.

As Jacobson and team point out, several drugs target aspects of the RAS and are already FDA approved to treat other conditions. They could arguably be applied to treating Covid-19 as well. Several, like danazol, stanozolol, and ecallantide, reduce bradykinin production and could potentially stop a deadly bradykinin storm. Others, like icatibant, reduce bradykinin signaling and could blunt its effects once it’s already in the body.

Interestingly, Jacobson’s team also suggests vitamin D (https://elemental.medium.com/what-black-people-need-to-know-about-vitamin-d-and-covid-19-5bf5885d5288) as a potentially useful Covid-19 drug. The vitamin is involved in the RAS system and could prove helpful by reducing levels of another compound, known as REN. Again, this could stop potentially deadly bradykinin storms from forming. The researchers note that vitamin D has already been shown to help those with Covid-19 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3571484). The vitamin is readily available over the counter, and around 20% of the population is deficient (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126987/#:~:text=vitamin%20D%20deficiency-,The%20prevalence%20of%20mild%2C%20moderate%20and%20severe%20vitamin%20D%20deficiencies,%25%2C%20and %2026.9%25%20respectively.). If indeed the vitamin proves effective at reducing the severity of bradykinin storms, it could be an easy, relatively safe way to reduce the severity of the virus.

Other compounds could treat symptoms associated with bradykinin storms. Hymecromone, for example, could reduce hyaluronic acid levels, potentially stopping deadly hydrogels from forming in the lungs. And timbetasin could mimic the mechanism that the researchers believe protects women from more severe Covid-19 infections. All of these potential treatments are speculative, of course, and would need to be studied in a rigorous, controlled environment before their effectiveness could be determined and they could be used more broadly.

Covid-19 stands out for both the scale of its global impact and the apparent randomness of its many symptoms (https://elemental.medium.com/every-covid-19-symptom-we-know-about-right-now-from-head-to-toe-bd1d47584096). Physicians have struggled to understand the disease (https://elemental.medium.com/9-things-experts-know-about-covid-19-that-they-didnt-know-then-5f22819807c4) and come up with a unified theory for how it works. Though as of yet unproven, the bradykinin hypothesis provides such a theory. And like all good hypotheses, it also provides specific, testable predictions — in this case, actual drugs that could provide relief to real patients.

The researchers are quick to point out that “the testing of any of these pharmaceutical interventions should be done in well-designed clinical trials.” As to the next step in the process, Jacobson is clear: “We have to get this message out.” His team’s finding won’t cure Covid-19. But if the treatments it points to pan out in the clinic, interventions guided by the bradykinin hypothesis could greatly reduce patients’ suffering — and potentially save lives.


Source: Elemental (https://elemental.medium.com/a-supercomputer-analyzed-covid-19-and-an-interesting-new-theory-has-emerged-31cb8eba9d63)

[greybeard]

My problem here is what criteria did they use to verify it is the virus?
Seems like everything but the kitchen sink thrown in.
Ferguson's modelling with horrendous forecasts which have fortunately not materialised would lea me to doubt the results s in the study

Chris

[Frank V]

My problem here is what criteria did they use to verify it is the virus?

It is all based upon empirically collected data. In other words, it is all information based upon the lab results and symptoms experienced by people who tested positive for coronavirus antibodies.

[greybeard]

If I have the virus and drop a hammer on my toe that sore toe will go down as a symptom ?
Smiling.
Anything that I am suffering at the time I test positive to a failed test will go down.
The test would seem to turn positive for various reasons not specific to any particular virus - flu - cold.
Chris

[Frank V]

If I have the virus and drop a hammer on my toe that sore toe will go down as a symptom ?
Smiling.

No, of course not. Now you're being silly.


Anything that I am suffering at the time I test positive to a failed test will go down.
The test would seem to turn positive for various reasons not specific to any particular virus - flu - cold.
Chris

That's not true. If you know your own body and you also know that you were healthy before, then you can also tell which symptoms come from the virus and which ones don't. I have had Covid-19, so I know exactly what the symptoms were for me, and most other people whom I know were also infected had roughly the same symptoms.

I say "roughly" because some reported a loss of smell and taste, whereas I did not exhibit that. Some had higher fevers than I did. I also had a diarrhea, but not everyone else with the virus did. But we did all experience the swollen feeling of the throat, pain in the lungs, dizziness, headaches, brain fog, a certain degree of fever, red eyes, fatigue and muscle or joint pains. And it was all very clear that these symptoms were not brought about by anything else.

[greybeard]

Yes I was being silly, tongue in cheek.
However, it is even more "silly" to shut the whole world down and I do have sympathy for what you and others went through Frank.
I tend to look at the whole context -- a minority went through what you experienced, millions will suffer from loss of income, depression and all that follows this forced lockdown --which continues.
Your immune system is now stronger.
Out of interest did you have the flu jab before this happened ie 2019?
Chris

[Agape]

But can they prove this was not a designer virus before it mutated anyway ? Rhetorical question though 🌟

[Frank V]

Yes I was being silly, tongue in cheek.
However, it is even more "silly" to shut the whole world down and I do have sympathy for what you and others went through Frank.

Well, it was nasty ─ and in a way it still is, because the virus is known to cause permanent damage, and I was already battling with autoimmune problems, which the virus has now only made worse ─ but I still don't consider the degree to which I was affected all that important, given that many people lost their lives.


I tend to look at the whole context -- a minority went through what you experienced, millions will suffer from loss of income, depression and all that follows this forced lockdown --which continues.

With all due respect, Chris ─ and I mean that ─ the loss of income is only the result of the fact that we're living in a capitalist economy. If the world had been governed by a form of the so-dreaded socialist economy model, then nobody would have lost any income at all, because socialism guarantees an income for everyone. Think about that for a moment, please.

As for the forced lockdowns, things are not quite as black & white as people make them out to be. The lockdowns ─ where they were respected ─ did effectively slow down the spreading of the virus, so that the health sector didn't get overloaded.

But at the same time, I do have to conclude that governments are basically winging it as they go, being torn back and forth between the opinions and advice from qualified scientists on the one hand, and lobbying industry and commerce groups on the other hand. And some of the measures ─ at least in some places ─ are really stupid.

Telling people to wear a mask if they're traveling all alone in their car or when they're jogging is stupid, and unhealthy. But at the same time, telling everyone to respect a 1.5-meter social distance ─ which is ineffective, because the virus can travel up to 8.5 meters if you're not wearing a mask ─ and then allowing party-goers to reduce their social distance to 1 meter, that's just ludicrous. So you have to maintain a 1.5-meter distance from one another, but at a party, the virus will let you get off the hook for the first 50 cm of proximity?


Your immune system is now stronger.

I'm not so sure of that, and on top of that, we've already got at least one case here of a person who now contracted the virus a second time.


Out of interest did you have the flu jab before this happened ie 2019?
Chris

Nope, I've never had any flu jabs.



————————————————————————————



But can they prove this was not a designer virus before it mutated anyway ? Rhetorical question though 🌟

No, of course not. This supercomputer analysis was entirely geared toward mapping out what exactly the virus does in the human body ─ its modus operandi and attack vectors ─ and how to best protect people against it. It doesn't say anything about the genetic origins of the virus.

[greybeard]

Thank you for your response Frank.
The situation UK with lockdown may be different from where you are.
Basically they keep changing the rules.
They give back freedom of movement --people go abroad then are told with very little warning you will have to self-isolate for a fortnight when you get back.
Business told they can reopen with social distancing masks etc then with very little warning are told --there has been several people in your area found to have the virus and a million people in that area have to endure close down of small businesses again

An Oxford University Professor now says social distancing --masks -- lockdown does not work.
That was in a video sometime back
Who are we to believe?
Chris
The links here of recent info from same Professor
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110505-Covid19-Global-reports-news-and-updates&p=1375626&viewfull=1#post1375626

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-second-wave-testing-more-135414823.html

[TargeT]

My problem here is what criteria did they use to verify it is the virus?

It is all based upon empirically collected data. In other words, it is all information based upon the lab results and symptoms experienced by people who tested positive for coronavirus antibodies.

so, terrible science & basically a bunch of informed "hunches"... sounds about right.

Like the guy who died in a motorcycle accident and was counted as a covid death, is his data in the mix as well?


If I have the virus and drop a hammer on my toe that sore toe will go down as a symptom ?
Smiling.
Anything that I am suffering at the time I test positive to a failed test will go down.
The test would seem to turn positive for various reasons not specific to any particular virus - flu - cold.
Chris

Yep, seems like more propaganda to me.

Why is the DOE getting into this? (smells even MORE like propaganda to me)


If I have the virus and drop a hammer on my toe that sore toe will go down as a symptom ?
Smiling.

No, of course not. Now you're being silly.

Not according to the reporting methods I've observed.... it's very accurate, how many comorbidity deaths were contributed purely to COVID-19?



Anything that I am suffering at the time I test positive to a failed test will go down.
The test would seem to turn positive for various reasons not specific to any particular virus - flu - cold.
Chris

That's not true. If you know your own body and you also know that you were healthy before,

Do you feel like this is a common thing, or extremely uncommon? (especially in those who would seek medical attention for a mild flu)


I don't see this situation as anything but vastly overblown and a propaganda tool and the numbers keep getting revised down (only 6% of reported deaths are solely from COVID-19?? that's SHOCKING (https://www.cbs7.com/2020/08/31/did-covid-19-only-cause-6-of-coronavirus-deaths-viral-posts-misrepresent-new-cdc-report/)).


i "think" I had it, but it was mild and the worst was only 3-4 days... I didn't go to the "doctors" because I can manage myself fine & am not in one of the risk categories.... I don't think I am the type of people that we hear from however, it's more the go-to-a-doc-for-any-minor-thing people.

[Frank V]

Do you feel like this is a common thing, or extremely uncommon? (especially in those who would seek medical attention for a mild flu)

I would say that it was definitely extremely uncommon, both within myself and in those who had to go to hospital because of it. I have never experienced anything like this before, and I almost died of pneumonia back in 1986, so I've been around the block.

It is most definitely not a flu ─ or for that matter, a common cold ─ and I do have a background in (among other things) the medical field. As the article says, this is not a respiratory disease but primarily a vascular one ─ the respiratory effects are only a secondary symptom.

[greybeard]

Frank I dont have the slightest challenge with what you have posted in good faith.
My concern as always is There does not seem to be a test that for sure identifies Covid as separate from previous covids or even the Flu.
The flu can cause all kinds of unpleasant things including all you have mentioned.
For sure something is causing what you experienced and many others too, but where is the valid test that says "This is Covid"
Im not dismissing that it may have been Covid you experienced just that Science has not yet for sure come up with a test that isolated the virus from all previous viruses.
So the computer modelling may have been done on a false premise that everything entered was covid without a shadow of doubt.
Obviously I dont know --but who does for sure.
Chris

[Frank V]

Frank I dont have the slightest challenge with what you have posted in good faith.
My concern as always is There does not seem to be a test that for sure identifies Covid as separate from previous covids or even the Flu.
The flu can cause all kinds of unpleasant things including all you have mentioned.
For sure something is causing what you experienced and many others too, but where is the valid test that says "This is Covid"
Im not dismissing that it may have been Covid you experienced just that Science has not yet for sure come up with a test that isolated the virus from all previous viruses.
So the computer modelling may have been done on a false premise that everything entered was covid without a shadow of doubt.
Obviously I dont know --but who does for sure.
Chris

Chris, I am not going to argue with you (or anyone else) about this ─ and if the knee-jerk science denial takes over this thread, then I'm going to leave this thread for what it is; I'm not kidding ─ but you are very, very wrong. I repeat that I come from, among other things, a training in the medical field, and I have also been educated in other areas of science, of which my favorite is the field of physics.

Covid-19 is caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which is a coronavirus. Neither the flu nor the common cold ─ which is often mistakenly referred to as the flu, even though it is by far not as dangerous as the real flu ─ are coronaviruses. Just because the coronavirus tests in the USA have been botched ─ and perhaps also in the UK, which has a prime minister whose political persuasions happen to align very much with those of the head-of-state in the USA, and who exhibited the same degree of incompetence until he himself caught the virus and had to be admitted to an intensive care ward ─ doesn't mean that the scientific community in the rest of the world partakes in that sort of incompetence.

Again, with all due respect, but the denialist reactions I am seeing here at Project Avalon are based upon nothing but paranoid knee-jerk rejections of anything that even remotely reeks of the word "mainstream" ─ unless it comes from Fox News, apparently ─ as well as so-called "expert opinions" from YouTube talking heads with an agenda who can very easily influence those who never studied any sciences, and a huge amount of cognitive bias, supported by anecdotal evidence because a few mistakes have been made here and there in testing and/or counting infected people. And once again, had the US government ─ and to a lesser extent the British government ─ not been so incompetent, then those anecdotal mistakes would perhaps never even have been made.

I'm a scientist, Chris. I don't do knee-jerks and I don't listen to opinionated talking heads. I know what I know because I've studied it, and I understand it.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I think it's best to leave that one out of discussions. It's not productive at this point.

Is it fair to say that this epidemic is suspect, at least in its over-inflation by the media, and the over-reaction of authority to what seemed to be a scripted contingency plan? Is it not strange how national health boards gave way to the WHO and took their marching orders as if from a potentate? Surely we can all agree that there is a political angle to the pandemic, and that it was very timely?

Also, since there has been varying degrees of tyranny imposed on the peoples of the world because of it, there seems to be no consensus on how to best respond to it.

[Frank V]

Is it fair to say that this epidemic is suspect, at least in its over-inflation by the media, and the over-reaction of authority to what seemed to be a scripted contingency plan? Is it not strange how national health boards gave way to the WHO and took their marching orders as if from a potentate? Surely we can all agree that there is a political angle to the pandemic, and that it was very timely?

In my opinion, no, it's not suspect at all. I see lots of human error and panic, especially among the governments, because we humans were so arrogant and complacent in assuming that nothing the circumference of the Spanish flu would ever come along again. We considered ourselves invincible. And we were messing up the planet just as badly as we were messing up each other. So Mother Nature ─ just a metaphor, because I don't do gods and goddesses, although I do see the whole of the universe as a single, sentient organism ─ decided to strike back. No Draco reptilians, no Annunaki, no Illuminati, no communists, no Jews, no baby-eating satanic pedophiles and no Deep State™. Just good old nature rising up to the challenge of having to deal with a ruthlessly predatory and destructive species like us.

And the politicians, who apart from their very royal salaries, expensive automobiles and celebrity status are no different from us ─ and certainly not versed in any fields of science ─ were panicking. They still are. It's beyond their competence levels as leaders because they're only in it for themselves. Politics pays well, you get to travel a lot, and you get your face on TV. But leadership is something they don't really possess ─ and that goes for the orange dude just as well as for those lining up to take his place. Real leaders don't run for any office. They are dropped in without a parachute and they don't even want to be in a position where they are expected to lead.

And then of course, the media are panicking too, but part of their panic is fake. Or at the very least exaggerated. Because they are commercial entities who make their living from selling printed copies, online subscriptions and ─ above all ─ advertisements from their corporate partners, and sensationalism, shock and awe are the number-one trump card ─ pun only semi-intended ─ to commercial success. They sell hyperbole, and especially so the corporate media ─ state-sponsored media tend to be a little bit better, even though they too can be sensationalist.

In the end, it's like the man said ─ may he rest in peace...:



Everyone wants to sell what's already been sold
Everyone wants to tell what's already been told
What's the use of money if you ain't gonna break the mold
Even at the center of fire, there is cold
All that glitters ain't gold

(Prince, "Gold")

[selinam]

But I thought the virus hasn’t actually been isolated so how can you test for that? It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus. I can’t take the report at face value. Would need to know the criteria involved.

[TargeT]

But I thought the virus hasn’t actually been isolated so how can you test for that? It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus. I can’t take the report at face value. Would need to know the criteria involved.

https://media.giphy.com/media/zac5EvG19YCVa/giphy.gif

[onawah]

I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G.

[Frank V]

It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus.

That was only true in North America, and specifically so in the USA, because the US CDC had mixed up the test kits with test kits for the flu.

In the rest of the world however, the tests were reliable.



—————————————————————————————————



I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G.

None whatsoever.

[onawah]

Any research to back that claim?
Because I think there has been research indicting that 5G does make such symptoms worse, if not actually cause them, particularly when the brain is involved.
Exomatrix would probably know where to access the latter.



It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus.

That was only true in North America, and specifically so in the USA, because the US CDC had mixed up the test kits with test kits for the flu.

In the rest of the world however, the tests were reliable.



—————————————————————————————————



I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G.

None whatsoever.

[Frank V]

It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus.

That was only true in North America, and specifically so in the USA, because the US CDC had mixed up the test kits with test kits for the flu.

In the rest of the world however, the tests were reliable.



—————————————————————————————————



I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G.

None whatsoever.

Any research to back that claim?

Um, that's not how it works, Onawah.

5G has been sufficiently tested and found harmless ─ yes, harmless, because it operates at less power than 4G. It merely uses a higher and wider frequency band, which makes it more effective and efficient at transferring lots of digital data, and the roll-out plan involves more antennae, but ─ again ─ they will be weaker. One of the intents is to make the covered area per antenna smaller, so as to provide a higher-resolution grid, which (among other things) aids in navigation ─ e.g. for self-driving vehicles.

Anyway, anyone who makes a claim that contradicts the established scientific facts is the one who has to provide the evidence, not the other way around. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It is up to the Flat-Earthers to prove that Earth would be flat, not up to us to prove that it is round.


Because I think there has been research indicting that 5G does make such symptoms worse, if not actually cause them, particularly when the brain is involved.

That research is fake, and it builds upon the lack of a scientific understanding among the general public. It's the oldest trick in the book of the salesman, i.e. use very complicated but pseudo-technical babble to impress your audience and suspend disbelief. It's also what science-fiction writers and movie/television producers do. The official Star Trek Technical Manual sounds very convincing too if you haven't had an education in physics. I especially like the description of the "Heisenberg compensators" in the transporter room. ;)


Exomatrix would probably know where to access the latter.

Oh, I have no doubt that he would. ;)

[Gracy]

But I thought the virus hasn’t actually been isolated so how can you test for that? It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus. I can’t take the report at face value. Would need to know the criteria involved.

I had to have the Covid test three days ago in order to have a shoulder surgery today. What I can tell you is, the negative result was good enough for the surgeon, the anesthesiologists, and all other accompanying staff, to be in very close contact with a patient who obviously can't wear a mask in that setting.

[Chris Gilbert]

I say "roughly" because some reported a loss of smell and taste, whereas I did not exhibit that. Some had higher fevers than I did. I also had a diarrhea, but not everyone else with the virus did. But we did all experience the swollen feeling of the throat, pain in the lungs, dizziness, headaches, brain fog, a certain degree of fever, red eyes, fatigue and muscle or joint pains. And it was all very clear that these symptoms were not brought about by anything else.

Some of my colleagues who do a form of clinical qigong also worked on similar symptoms on recent clients who reported positive COVID tests.

It's been discussed ad infinitum of course at this point, but I find it eye raising how the direct experiences of those at ground zero are regularly dismissed. I've told a couple people now how I had to help security guards at my hospital job stack bodies of expired COVID patients on top of each other due to overflow in the morgue back in April. But alas, nope, my direct experience is less reliable than a Youtube/internet echo chamber. I notice too that many seem to limit their perspective to Anglo countries. From the very beginning I've been reading up on events in East Asia and elsewhere. If people want to combat mainstream narratives, they need to develop more nuanced understanding.

Anyway, good info in the article, I'm glad to see a mention of Vitamin D. I suspect that this pandemic will throw greater focus on just how common Vitamin D deficiency is. Another important angle to is the importance of cross-immunity due to T cells, especially with how quickly antibodies fade. While I've been very careful both at work and elsewhere since April, even the best PPE doesn't fully stop some level of exposure, so all other things being equal, I'm starting to wonder if I won the lottery and have T cell resistance.

[greybeard]

It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus.

That was only true in North America, and specifically so in the USA, because the US CDC had mixed up the test kits with test kits for the flu.

In the rest of the world however, the tests were reliable.



—————————————————————————————————



I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G.

None whatsoever.

Thats not the complete truth Frank.
The PCR tests are over sensitive as stated below.
Oversensitive can not identify if the virus is complete -- and capable of spreading to others.
The positive results are used by UK Government to reimpose lockdown unnecessarily.
Chris

I post again an accepted expert in Uk

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-second-wave-testing-more-135414823.html

‘There is no second wave – we're just testing more,’ Oxford coronavirus expert says
Andy Wells
Freelance Writer
Yahoo News UK2 September 2020
Road sign advising social distancing during Covid-19. Daily life in Yorkshire, the largest county in England, UK. (Photo by Keith Mayhew / SOPA Images/Sipa USA)


The rising number of coronavirus cases in the UK is down to more tests being carried out and does not point to a second wave, an expert on medicine has said.

Medical experts have previously predicted that the UK will see a second wave of the virus in winter, a forecast echoed by World Health Organization (WHO) Europe director Hans Kluge last week.

However, Professor Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford believes that while a “comprehensive system of national test and trace” has led to an uptick of confirmed COVID-19 cases across the UK, that does not mean the disease is on the rise.

Instead, Heneghan said “new mild cases” are not infectious, and are simply being picked up by sensitive tests, providing positive results.

These virus particles already been dealt with “efficiently” by immune systems of those who have contracted COVID-19, Heneghan said.

He told MailOnline: “There is currently no second wave. What we are seeing is a sharp rise in the number of healthy people who are carrying the virus, but exhibiting no symptoms.

“Almost all of them are young. They are being spotted because – finally – a comprehensive system of national test and trace is in place.”

He added: “The government urgently needs to send out a clear, concise message that the risk from COVID-19 is currently low.”

Heneghan said the fear that people with coronavirus but no symptoms are spreading it to others “is not borne out by the experiences of the past six months”.

Newly released data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) revealed that weekly death registrations involving COVID-19 in England and Wales fell to 138 in the week ending 21 August – their lowest level since before lockdown.

However, an increase of cases has seen the government halt its planned easing of local lockdowns in Bolton and Trafford.

But, writing in The Spectator, Heneghan said that in the UK “we appear to have the reality of viral circulation”, which is “probably waning fast”.

He highlighted how deaths in both the UK and Italy – the two European nations worst hit by COVID-19 – remained low and stable, despite weeks of rising cases.

He added that the sensitivity of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) for testing meant that the smallest fragments of the virus in a sample are amplified millions of times – providing a positive result even when someone is not infected by the whole virus.

These fragments do not make the whole virus, he wrote, and therefore cannot infect other people.

Heneghan added: “Evidence is mounting that a good proportion of 'new' mild cases and people re-testing positives after quarantine or discharge from hospital are not infectious, but are simply clearing harmless virus particles which their immune system has efficiently dealt with.
Health Secretary Matt Hancock delivers a speech on the future of the NHS at the Royal College of Physicians in central London. (Photo by Jonathan Brady/PA Images via Getty Images)
View photos
Health secretary Matt Hancock has warned that the UK faces a possible second wave of coronavirus in winter. (Getty)

“Those whose immunity is more active are exactly in the age group of observed 'positives' and least likely to end with severe disease.”

On Wednesday health secretary Matt Hancock warned that a rise in infections in healthy people could result in a second wave of coronavirus.

He told MPs in the Commons: “I said in July that a second wave was rolling across Europe and sadly we’re now seeing an exponential rise in the number of cases in France and Spain. And the number of hospitalisations is sadly rising there too.

“We must do everything in our power to protect against a second wave here in the UK.”
Coronavirus: what happened today

[Sue (Ayt)]

I read this article earlier, and looked up "Bradykinin" on wikipedia, as I was wondering if the "Bradykinin Storm" was anything like the "Cytokine Storm" that we heard about with pandemic flu.

Interestingly, Wikipedia says this:

Additional bradykinin inhibitors exist. It has long been known in animal studies that bromelain, a substance obtained from the stems and leaves of the pineapple plant, suppresses trauma-induced swelling caused by the release of bradykinin into the bloodstream and tissues.[16] Other substances that act as bradykinin inhibitors include aloe[17][18] and polyphenols, substances found in red wine and green tea.[19]
I believe red wine and green tea (particularly resveratrol and EGCG) both have been useful in tamping down cytokine storm. (I have read that Pinot Noir has the most resveratrol of any of the red wines, which happens to be my fav! :thumbsup:)
Frank V - Are the two reactions similar? It seems like both are over-reactions to novel infections causing inflammation.

Wikipedia also says that
People of African descent have up to five times increased risk of ACE inhibitor induced angioedema due to hereditary predisposing risk factors such as hereditary angioedema. This may explain the disproportionate effect of covid on people of African heritage, possibly needing more sunshine and/or Vitamin D?

[greybeard]

Any thread is bound to attract alternative views and that is healthy.
Im wary of putting trust in artificial intelligence as was the late Stephen Hawkins.
The more intelligence the less common sense.
Common sense, though we may disagree what that is --- does not over think, its mainly intuitive
Computers basically number crunch --I dont see that they are capable (yet) of taking into account subtleties.
Garbage in garbage out -- not saying that the case here but possibly an overload of information.

As Frank said way back --He knows when he is ill -- thats the whole point -- I do not need a PCR test to tell me that I need to stay home --that I have a bug. That is common sense.

I agree that there are loads of theories behind who and what considering the virus .

I see it as a natural event that Governments and Vaccine manufactures have been opportunist about.
Simply they might have seen this as an opportunity to control - to make trillions out of.
On the other hand the conspiracy theories may be so.
This was originally a conspiracy theorist forum, not so much so now.
Im not a conspiracy theorist but unfortunately -- they may just be right in some respects anyway.
David Icke makes a compelling case against 5G and other matters.
Robert F Kennedy Jnr not a fan of 5G either.
Its being rushed through in UK -- no slowing down of instillation inspite of lockdown -- no debate in parliament.
I have no opinion on it.
All may be so
Chris

[ExomatrixTV]

"5G has been sufficiently tested and found harmless"

Based upon what exactly?

Repeating corporate approved talking-points?

How did they "test" it? ... Where did they "test" it? ... What did they "test" exactly? ... any peer reviewed publications? ... Who financed the "test"?


sources please
citations etc.

As most claim (parrot) a lot with "comments disabled" and NO discussion allowed!

ps: This link (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100537-Stop-5G-before-it-s-irreversible-&p=1375925&viewfull=1#post1375925) has sources & citations. And have 100 times more like that!

[Frank V]

I read this article earlier, and looked up "Bradykinin" on wikipedia, as I was wondering if the "Bradykinin Storm" was anything like the "Cytokine Storm" that we heard about with pandemic flu.

Interestingly, Wikipedia says this:

Additional bradykinin inhibitors exist. It has long been known in animal studies that bromelain, a substance obtained from the stems and leaves of the pineapple plant, suppresses trauma-induced swelling caused by the release of bradykinin into the bloodstream and tissues.[16] Other substances that act as bradykinin inhibitors include aloe[17][18] and polyphenols, substances found in red wine and green tea.[19]
I believe red wine and green tea (particularly resveratrol and EGCG) both have been useful in tamping down cytokine storm. (I have read that Pinot Noir has the most resveratrol of any of the red wines, which happens to be my fav! :thumbsup:)
Frank V - Are the two reactions similar? It seems like both are over-reactions to novel infections causing inflammation.

Yes, they are indeed both very similar responses, because the body's immune system is dealing with something it doesn't recognize.


Wikipedia also says that
People of African descent have up to five times increased risk of ACE inhibitor induced angioedema due to hereditary predisposing risk factors such as hereditary angioedema. This may explain the disproportionate effect of covid on people of African heritage, possibly needing more sunshine and/or Vitamin D?

Well, one has to be careful here on account of the correlation between people of African descent and Vitamin D absorption. There are a lot of misconceptions going round in that regard.

One study that I've read ─ but alas, it was in a local publication, in the Dutch language, and I do not believe I've come across a publication in English ─ stated that those in whom the Covid-19 infection reached dangerously clinical degrees and who had to be taken to hospital, all appear to have a fair amount of Neanderthal DNA in their genes, while those whose infection was milder do not. But then again, conversely, those whose infection appeared milder are more prone to have contracted long-term (if not permanent) neurological damage from the infection.



—————————————————————————



Any thread is bound to attract alternative views and that is healthy.

Of course. But there is a significant difference between attracting alternative views ─ with the intelligent discussion that ensues from it ─ and mobbing by an echo-chamber subculture, as Chris Gilbert mentioned higher up, and as I'm quoting farther down in this reply.


Im wary of putting trust in artificial intelligence as was the late Stephen Hawkins.

No artificial intelligence was involved with this research. It was a supercomputer, which is essentially a whole farm of individual computer nodes that all dedicate themselves to a single computational task, and then all of these computations are joined together by the master program running on the control nodes.

So it's basically a collection of thousands of individual computers that all function as a single, large computer, and it is the opposite of a mainframe, which is a single large computer that behaves as if it is comprised of multiple individual computers that all do different things.


[...]

David Icke makes a compelling case against 5G and other matters.
Robert F Kennedy Jnr not a fan of 5G either.

[...]

Neither David Icke nor Robert F. Kennedy Jr. are scientists. They are mere flesh-and-blood mortals, and there is nothing they can do that you wouldn't be able to do yourself.

They're not gods, Chris. They are people with opinions and ─ thanks to YouTube ─ a popular name.



—————————————————————————




"5G has been sufficiently tested and found harmless"

Based upon what exactly?

Repeating corporate approved talking-points?

How did they "test" it? ... Where did they "test" it? ... What did they "test" exactly? ... any peer reviewed publications? ... Who financed the "test"?


sources please
citations etc.


As I told Onawah, John, the onus is on the ones making the opposite claim. It is not up to me to provide links that you yourself can easily find ─ at least, if you would be willing to find them, but I know you're not ─ but up to you to provide irrefutable evidence that 5G would be harmful. And you had better find it from another source than YouTube.


As most claim (parrot) a lot with "comments disabled" and NO discussion allowed!

You mean like here on Project Avalon, where a certain amount of people with no understanding of science has made up its mind about things and ruthlessly jumps the neck of every "dissident" at the first occasion?

Well, I'm not going to be playing that game, John. This thread was intended to be informative on the subject of how the SARS-CoV-2 virus operates within the human body, what it does to the human body and the human immune system, and what could possibly be done to protect oneself against that.

Even though ─ as Chris "Greybeard" said ─ any thread is bound to attract opposing views, it would be an understatement to say that this is what's going on here. This thread is being abused by the mob of Covid-deniers, relentless 5G-scaremongers whose claims have already long been disproved, and ─ dare I say ─ anti-vaxxers.

Just because I don't post a whole lot in the members area of Project Avalon doesn't mean that I'd be blind to what's been going on here at the forum, and to the tag-team subcultures that have formed (and are continuing to form) here.

No, Sir, I'm not playing that game. You guys want the thread to yourselves? Go ahead ─ you can have it. This little piggy's got better things to do with his time. :rolleyes:



—————————————————————————



It's been discussed ad infinitum of course at this point, but I find it eye raising how the direct experiences of those at ground zero are regularly dismissed. I've told a couple people now how I had to help security guards at my hospital job stack bodies of expired COVID patients on top of each other due to overflow in the morgue back in April. But alas, nope, my direct experience is less reliable than a Youtube/internet echo chamber. I notice too that many seem to limit their perspective Anglo countries. From the very beginning I've been reading up events in East Asia and elsewhere. If people want to combat mainstream narratives, they need to develop more nuanced understanding.

Thank you, Sir, for inserting some common sense back into this thread. I salute you! :handshake:

[ExomatrixTV]

As most claim (parrot) a lot with "comments disabled" and NO discussion allowed!

That is about corporate funded claims & "testing" & Mainstream Media copy catting that without anyone be able to comment MOST of the time ... AM NOT TALKING ABOUT AVALON ... and you know that Sir

And you lack the "willing" to see why 5G is NOT proven safe!

That is why you can not share real evidence (we can trust & verify).

vZ5soLrvXFg

[Tintin]

It's been discussed ad infinitum of course at this point, but I find it eye raising how the direct experiences of those at ground zero are regularly dismissed. I've told a couple people now how I had to help security guards at my hospital job stack bodies of expired COVID patients on top of each other due to overflow in the morgue back in April. But alas, nope, my direct experience is less reliable than a Youtube/internet echo chamber. I notice too that many seem to limit their perspective Anglo countries. From the very beginning I've been reading up events in East Asia and elsewhere. If people want to combat mainstream narratives, they need to develop more nuanced understanding.

Thank you, Sir, for inserting some common sense back into this thread. I salute you! :handshake:

Yes, thank you Chris G :highfive: We can't lose track of the science here in the Op-Ed.

[Mike Gorman]

Yes I was being silly, tongue in cheek.
However, it is even more "silly" to shut the whole world down and I do have sympathy for what you and others went through Frank.
I tend to look at the whole context -- a minority went through what you experienced, millions will suffer from loss of income, depression and all that follows this forced lockdown --which continues.
Your immune system is now stronger.
Out of interest did you have the flu jab before this happened ie 2019?
Chris

Absolutely Mr Greybeard, it is daft, bananas to shut down the world, and impose these appalling restrictions on healthy people. The mortality rate from cancer, road trauma, suicide, influenza vastly outstrips any of the C-19, even with inflated death certification with co-morbidities; this is the true tragedy of this bane.

[Agape]

It seems right to me from some of the above discussion that

both Acetylcysteine (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcysteine) and papaine-bromelaine or similar enzymatic complex,

for example Wobenzym (https://www.douglaslabs.com/wobenzym-reg-plus.html)

would be especially helpful alongside the main course of treatment for their ability to dissolve even large amount of mucus (such as in patients of cystic fibrosis).

They’re efficient at any stage of the disease helping to remove damaged or excessive biological material breaking it enzymatically on the way out.

Both are approved over counter remedies though higher doses of both may be prescription bound and/or little costly.
For fair use treatment and personal use 600mg tablets (1-3 a day) for adults and 200mg for children in course of ten days are usually affordable.

Earlier it was also frequently prescribed by pulmonologists and otholaryngogists as primary or supportive treatment in all kinds of respiratory conditions with mucus accumulation.
As such pharmacies used to advertise it as “cold&flu” treatment.

[Bill Ryan]

Mod note from Bill:

I'll post more here later today about the science, which is important and real. It seems like it may well be a significant breakthrough.

Several posts have been deleted (by other mods, not by me! But I fully support the action) — and ExomatrixTV, Luke Holiday and greybeard have been blocked from the thread. We'll not see this thread derailed, as so many potentially valuable threads have been.

:focus:

[Bill Ryan]

Here's Chris Martenson, whose entire video update yesterday was about this.

Highly recommended, to best understand what this is all about, and why it's significant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOxRfNCTV6U

In turn, Martenson himself recommends this video explanation, saying that there's no way he himself could present it any better. (High praise, considering Martenson's skill and ability at interpreting complex ideas as simply as possible.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbRfur36sE

[william r sanford72]

thanks for this thread and few others..

some of the things I went through during my brush with covid make some sense now..

first. I am not supporting nor debunking or trying sway anyones point of view or OP.

second. I have only been to the doctor TWICE in fifteen years.and havnt taken a single dose of pills/pharma in 10 years.

Third. my state hasn't shut down in any sense of the word from the start..and my job and my familys job put us on the so called front lines since march serving food and ice cream to the public.

What i can do is hope-fully without derailing and or pissing any one off is relate the last month and half what I went through...my body and the damage it caused.

the first part of july was when I knew I had what is being called covid 19..the first couple weeks were not bad though the symptoms were so strange at times that I knew my body was having a hard time trying to figure out what to do.

everything from swollen eyes and face to high grade off and on fevers...energy level was zapped to 0 for much of the time and a strange dry cough that woukld hit about twice a day for 2 or 3 hours at a time.. and I could go on..it was the third week into it that became a life or death struggle.

within a 24 hour period my lungs filled with fluid and my chest felt like a elephant decided to have a seat..for about 7 days my body fought and my lungs fought at times for every bit of air..i coughed so much fluid out that I still really cant believe it came from me.

There was a moment during my fight that I was going to head to the hospital..as I headed for the door something stopped me..

in that moment I also passed out..

I woke on the kitchen floor with my wife and son next to me with my head In my wifes lap. She wanted to call the ambulance and as my head cleared I told her that if I went I wouldn't come home and that if I had to pass then I would rather do it at home..i also told her that it was a 50 50 thing at home and 80 percent chance I wouldn't come home from the hospital..

Elijah my son said ..he is going to bee alright..he is arguing with us..about goin to the docs..

he was right the worst had passed..i could tell right away tho there were moments I still struggled..and as I write this im about 2 and half weeks into healing my body..

I don't know how to express how this effected me..my feelings and thoughts.. the damge to my body and lungs.

I almost died.

So..What ever this is it nailed me to the wall..and iam gratefull for every moment good and bad I have on this planet with the ones I love and the advice and threads about treatments have been spot on at Avalon..

good news is I did survive and every day my body is healing without a visit to the docs..or hospital.

tho that may not bee the case for others and iam not suggesting it as such..

I could just bee stupid and or bull/headed..pick one.

no fear mongering..just the truth as simple as I could write it.
wont answer any questions and thanks for allowing me to express myself..and if this isn't the place for my post ..move it..no complaints from me.

:heart:
William.



Mod note from Bill: William, thank you so much. :bearhug: I've copied (not moved) this post to the important and personal thread titled Avalon members who may have Covid-19 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110260-Avalon-members-who-may-have-Covid-19).

Some members here are very very slow (or just defiantly resistant) to the fact that this virus is very real, and can hit even some healthy people hard.

That's totally independent from the other fact that the situation is being exploited, often with inadequate or falsified information, by authorities enforcing a heavy-duty control protocol. Both these issues are real at the same time.

:focus:

[onawah]

I seem to have missed where on the forum claims that 5G is dangerous have been disproven. Please direct me there, if you would.
Are you also saying that anti-vaxxers claims that vaccines are dangerous have been disproven?
And may I ask if you are a scientist, Frank?
And do you dispute that there is a population reduction agenda afoot by the elite?
Just wanting to get clear on some basic points, because when the Admin seems to be supporting mainstream narratives, I begin to wonder if this is still really a conspiracy theory forum.
update: Well, perhaps I should re-word that: I begin to wonder if this is still a forum where conspiracy theories are welcome.
Thanks.

Even though ─ as Chris "Greybeard" said ─ any thread is bound to attract opposing views, it would be an understatement to say that this is what's going on here. This thread is being abused by the mob of Covid-deniers, relentless 5G-scaremongers whose claims have already long been disproved, and ─ dare I say ─ anti-vaxxers.

[TargeT]

I seem to have missed where on the forum claims that 5G is dangerous has been disproven.

You do not DIS-prove something with science (https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/science-fair/steps-of-the-scientific-method), not directly and not difinitively... you will never find what you are looking for.



a conspiracy theory forum.

was that he intent of PA? I thought it was discussion and sharing, learning and growing?



Even though ─ as Chris "Greybeard" said ─ any thread is bound to attract opposing views, it would be an understatement to say that this is what's going on here. This thread is being abused by the mob of Covid-deniers, relentless 5G-scaremongers whose claims have already long been disproved, and ─ dare I say ─ anti-vaxxers.


I do agree that Frank is not responding in the most.. un-biased way.. I don't see any abuse or mob or a single covid denier either; a bit hyperbolic in the posts.. IMO.

When the limbic system attaches to a cortex output strange things happen!( emotion =/= logic)

[onawah]

Not to mention the fact that what is considered "settled" in science is often proven to be quite the opposite when time has passed and the results of implementing the new device/discovery have been documented and the side effects can no longer be hidden..
More and more the public has been treated like lab rats to be experimented on with whatever the bought and paid for scientists can cook up that will earn the corporations more profits.
It's foolish NOT to be suspicious!


I seem to have missed where on the forum claims that 5G is dangerous has been disproven.

You do not DIS-prove something with science (https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/science-fair/steps-of-the-scientific-method), not directly and not difinitively... you will never find what you are looking for.

[Kryztian]

I think this forum would be best served by splitting this thread into two. 1) a thread for those who wish to question the methodology and science behind this particular study (which is most of the conversation we have been having) and 2) a thread which assumes the methodolgy isn't flawed and would like to look deeper into the implications of the study, and whether Bradykinin storms are a good explanation for COVID, whether supercomputers can be used in the future to understand disease and epidemics, what implications this has for natural and non-phamaceutical remedies, etc. I would suggest putting the word "Bradykinin" in the title of the 2nd thread.

[Frank V]

I was not going to post to this thread anymore, but I'll make one exception and reply to this... :rolleyes:


I seem to have missed where on the forum claims that 5G is dangerous has been disproven. Please direct me there, if you would.

Contrary to your belief, dear Onawah, there are yet other information sources than what is posted here at the Project Avalon forum. And also contrary to your belief (and approach), the onus is on the one making the allegation, not on the defendant ─ in this case, the defendant being 5G.

Among other things ─ yes, many, many other things ─ I'm also an IT guy, and I've looked into 5G. I know what it is, and I know what it is not. And I have seen the most ludicrous claims made about it, including a very detailed summary of what frequencies and power bands it uses, and how dangerous those are for humans.

The only problem was that those frequencies listed were all wrong, as were the power levels, as were the effects on living and non-living matter that were claimed as associated with those frequencies ─ both the claimed frequencies and the real frequencies used by 5G. Completely, utterly and totally wrong. But if you don't know, and if you don't understand the science, then that misleading techno babble will sound very convincing, and then it'll lead you down a nightmarish rabbit hole.

I'll give you another example, albeit only somewhat tangentially related. Remember HAARP and all the bad things it can do (if you believe David Wilcock)? Well, none of that is true either.

Over at The One Truth, we've got a female member who's an engineer, and who knows all about HAARP, as well as about the Schumann resonances, and she can tell you into great detail what they are and what they are not ─ much better than I could. But if she were a member here ─ I don't know whether she is, actually, because our registration process over there is a lot simpler than it is over here, and we don't ask our members for any kind of information as part of their registration ─ and she were to share her knowledge here, then you guys would be eating her alive.


Are you also saying that anti-vaxxers claims that vaccines are dangerous have been disproven?

With the exception of a few genuine yet anecdotal negative reactions to vaccines, yes.

As you may or may not know, I am a high-functioning autistic adult, and I have been immersed in the whole vaccine debate for a long time, refuting misinterpretations by so-called "autism moms", who were just as aggressive ─ if not more so ─ in their knee-jerk rejection of the science as I've been seeing here on the thread, and on other, similar threads in the past. I am very well versed on the subject.

I'll give you just an few examples of where the facts have been distorted, and where the denialists fell for it "hook, line and sinker".




Claim: Autism is caused by vaccines, and specifically, by the thimerosal ─ sold under the commercial name Thiomersal ─ used as a conservation agent in the MMR vaccine. (Thimerosal is mercury-based, which led to great controversy in the 1970s.)


Facts:


I am autistic ─ officially diagnosed. I have never been administered the MMR vaccine. I also perfectly know which parts of my behavior and personality are psychological, and which parts are due to my autistic neurology. And I understand the science.


Thiomersal has already no longer been included in any vaccines since the 1980s, exactly because of the controversy surrounding it.


Autism has been proven to be an exclusively genetically originated neurological difference ─ not a disease, nor brain damage. At least twelve (12) genes responsible for an autism spectrum neurology ─ which encompasses many different manifestations, including but not limited to ADHD, synesthesia, eidetic memory, high-functioning autism, low-functioning autism, OCD and a few other conditions ─ have been identified.


Andrew Wakefield, the hero of the anti-vaxx movement, is a proven fraud, who was found guilty of not only having falsified his research at the benefit of a law firm involved in a high-profile lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company ─ and for the record, I'm not exactly a fan of the pharmaceutical industry ─ but also of having grossly violated all ethics by injecting a number of unwitting teenagers at a party without their explicit consent, and of having treated his official patients unprofessionally and with total disregard for their wellbeing. And all of those things are documented. You don't have to believe me. Just consult with the British register for why Andrew Wakefield was barred from ever practising medicine again.




And may I ask if you are a scientist, Frank?

I have said so already, Onawah ─ on this thread here, even. And in many fields too. I also happen to ─ and I hate having to say this ─ have a very high IQ, and I've got an eidetic memory. It is more difficult for me to forget something than to remember it (and for that matter, often into great detail).


And do you dispute that there is a population reduction agenda afoot by the elite?

Do I dispute it? No, but only because I'm not convinced in either direction.

While I can understand that there are concerns regarding the continuing growth of the population and that there are people lobbying for a considered attempt by each individual household to please stop putting so many new children into the world, at the same time it seems illogical that the elites would want to reduce the population, because right now, the more of us there are, the higher the elites' standards of living.

They're feeding off of us like leeches. We're still useful to them, and they know all too well that if ─ say ─ some 75% of the population were to disappear, then they themselves are going to have to come down from their ivory towers and do the dirty work that we are now doing for them.

So, I'm not convinced that there would be any plans for a mass culling. But at the same time, invading countries and starting wars is always a good way to cull at least some part of the local population and keep the numbers at a rough status quo.


Just wanting to get clear on some basic points, because when the Admin seems to be supporting mainstream narratives, I begin to wonder if this is still really a conspiracy theory forum.
Thanks.

Well, another two things here...


One ─ I am one of the administrators here at Project Avalon, and when Bill hired me on the team, I didn't receive any memo from him that I was expected to abandon my personal opinions and convictions. And Bill does not expect that from me, either. He fully respects my individuality, just as he respects the individuality of every member at this forum. I am just as entitled to my personal opinion as you are, Onawah, and not only that, but I am also just as entitled as you to speak my opinion and share my knowledge, even if it disagrees with yours or anyone else's here.


Two - Project Avalon is not a conspiracy forum, nor is it a political forum. It is a community forum, which deals with esoteric subjects such as the extraterrestrial presence (including any government or industrial cover-ups thereof), spirituality, science, social issues (including politics and sociology, albeit that there's a huge difference between discussing social-political science and choosing sides in a never-ending and exclusively US-centric bipartisan war), historical research, and so on. The conspiracy research angle is only one very small part of all of the things that Project Avalon as a community forum offers to its members and visitors.


And research is research ─ not: listening to YouTube talking heads who make up your mind for you, fostering cognitive biases and/or jerking your knees against anything mainstream. Because all this does ─ and the same goes for all of the QAnon mania ─ is create more division. One does not become enlightened or "awake" by rejecting the mainstream and choosing to be "alternative". Because then all you're doing is moving from one room on the ground floor to another room on the ground floor, and then you're still stuck in that "us versus them" paradigm. Then you're still stuck in the battle between the thesis and the antithesis.

Enlightenment is finding your way to the staircase and climbing up to the next floor, towards the synthesis. And I am sad to have to say that I am seeing very little of that anymore around here. It's not all gone, but the members exhibiting knee-jerk reactions and paranoia, the members who focus on rejecting the mainstream, and the members whose focus lies on the very parochial battle between the reincarnation of Benito Mussolini on the one hand and on the other hand, a bunch of corrupt corporate globalists who seek to turn the entire world into a corporate empire under their control, those members are the loudest bunch of them all. And it shows a completely aberrant picture of the forum to unwitting visitors ─ which is why, to name but one example, the QAnon stuff was put into a members-only section.

Project Avalon exists so as to be able to rise above all of that bickering between thesis and antithesis. Bill founded this forum as a resource for finding solutions to the problems that exist in this world ─ whichever problems they might be ─ and as an online home for people willing to go that journey with him. And look at what you're all doing to this place.

That's all I've got to say about this, and as I stated at the beginning of this post, this is my last post on this thread. So, to whomever it concerns, please don't quote me in an attempt to elicit further responses from me on this thread, because I am not going to post to it anymore. I started this thread ─ which I've also posted at The One Truth ─ with the intent of bringing an important scientific discovery and hypothesis to the attention of this community. I did not start this thread as an invitation to the naysayers to come and flaunt their cognitive biases all over the place.

And yet that's exactly what happened. I guess I should have known better. You may color me naive if you want, although I'd say that it was more innocence than naivité which prompted me to start this thread and share this information with you all.

[onawah]

I changed my wording in the post that you quoted Frank to " I begin to wonder if this is still a forum where conspiracy theories are welcome"... but you probably didn't see that.
Conspiracy theory is not my only interest or reason for being here either, but like you, I have my own personal reasons for believing what I do.
I also have a high IQ (could have joined MENSA had I wanted to) and am also an extremely sensitive and intuitive person, with very different gifts from yours, but gifts nonetheless.
I have had enlightenment experiences, both before and after I spent a year as a resident in a Zen Center and later became a student and friend of this man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hills

When I was 7 years old I had a kind of nervous breakdown after receiving the SV40 polio vaccine, which was contaminated with Rhesus monkey viruses.
I certainly had no opinion or bias about vaccines at the time, but immediately after receiving it, I knew that it was doing very bad things to my body.
I got no more information about that until I was in my 50s and my doctor of Integrative Medicine did blood work for me and discovered mycoplasma in my system, which he suspected was due to the SV40, and as being the cause of my fibromyalgia.
He encouraged me to do research to confirm if that was the polio vaccine which I received, which I did, and it was.
So I know first hand that vaccines are dangerous.
You may say that that has biased me, but I think we are all biased in one way or another.
(By the way, on the subject of vaccines, Dr. Andrew Wakefield was vindicated of the charges laid against him, but then you probably know that too.)

As for 5G, thankfully, I have not experienced that yet to the degree that people who are living in places where it has been fully installed, but I know that I can be especially sensitive to frequencies, because years ago when cell phone towers started going up in the city where I was living, I began to feel like I was afflicted with Alzheimer's
I couldn't focus, couldn't remember things, was having panic attacks for no apparent reason.
I suspected it was the cell phone towers because their energy felt terrible to me, and when I moved to the country where there were none, I returned to normal.
Though I still cannot bear being close to cell phone towers, don't like having cell phones near me, and will never own one.
Electromagnetic frequencies caused by manmade technology and vaccines, which still contain many toxins, are all too easy a way to cause harm, and like so many things that the bought-and-paid-for scientists have come up with, may only be proven to be dangerous long after they have wreaked havoc on lifeforms on this planet, and the planet itself.

My sense is that yet another meltdown on Avalon is coming like the one that happened when Q was the big issue, but I don't intend to invest anymore energy than necessary in this one.
I will just continue to post information from sources that I consider to be credible, in hopes that it may help people who are looking for better answers (better than false mainstream narratives provide) save some time and effort, for as long as I have the energy and means to do so.
I get my information from many sources, I subscribe to a lot of newsletters and network with many others outside of Avalon (and youtube), and spend a good part of my days doing that, so that I can share credible info here.
I have no intention of arguing or trading insults or false assumptions with you (which do you no credit) and frankly, I have grown as weary as you sound of how things are going these days on the forum, but for different reasons.
And I will also refrain from posting on this thread again.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Truth is not always determined by Hegelian dialectics or logic. Sometimes you can only bake the cake to complete synthesis with the addition of other, more subtle ingredients, such as lived experience, common sense, and intuition. The cold spring night in 1997 when I levitated out of my bed, turned 90° in the air, then floated feet first through my bedroom wall into a swirling purple vortex to arrive on the other side in a spaceship, required a great deal more than thesis/antithesis to parse out and reconcile.

I remain open to all avenues of enquiry, and I base my hypotheses, on where those avenues lead, on far more than pure philosophical dictums. Indeed, I weigh from the heart and the soul every bit as much as from what I see as black or white in the world. I know from experience that the Universe has hidden dimensions too, and they are weirdly grey.

Sorry for tangent and for butting in.

Addendum: I am not a covid denier (my closest friend caught it and is still recovering).

[Delight]

I was not going to post to this thread anymore, but I'll make one exception and reply to this... :rolleyes:


I seem to have missed where on the forum claims that 5G is dangerous has been disproven. Please direct me there, if you would.

Contrary to your belief, dear Onawah, there are yet other information sources than what is posted here at the Project Avalon forum. And also contrary to your belief (and approach), the onus is on the one making the allegation, not on the defendant ─ in this case, the defendant being 5G.

Among other things ─ yes, many, many other things ─ I'm also an IT guy, and I've looked into 5G. I know what it is, and I know what it is not. And I have seen the most ludicrous claims made about it, including a very detailed summary of what frequencies and power bands it uses, and how dangerous those are for humans.

The only problem was that those frequencies listed were all wrong, as were the power levels, as were the effects on living and non-living matter that were claimed as associated with those frequencies ─ both the claimed frequencies and the real frequencies used by 5G. Completely, utterly and totally wrong. But if you don't know, and if you don't understand the science, then that misleading techno babble will sound very convincing, and then it'll lead you down a nightmarish rabbit hole.

I'll give you another example, albeit only somewhat tangentially related. Remember HAARP and all the bad things it can do (if you believe David Wilcock)? Well, none of that is true either.

Over at The One Truth, we've got a female member who's an engineer, and who knows all about HAARP, as well as about the Schumann resonances, and she can tell you into great detail what they are and what they are not ─ much better than I could. But if she were a member here ─ I don't know whether she is, actually, because our registration process over there is a lot simpler than it is over here, and we don't ask our members for any kind of information as part of their registration ─ and she were to share her knowledge here, then you guys would be eating her alive.


Are you also saying that anti-vaxxers claims that vaccines are dangerous have been disproven?

With the exception of a few genuine yet anecdotal negative reactions to vaccines, yes.

As you may or may not know, I am a high-functioning autistic adult, and I have been immersed in the whole vaccine debate for a long time, refuting misinterpretations by so-called "autism moms", who were just as aggressive ─ if not more so ─ in their knee-jerk rejection of the science as I've been seeing here on the thread, and on other, similar threads in the past. I am very well versed on the subject.

I'll give you just an few examples of where the facts have been distorted, and where the denialists fell for it "hook, line and sinker".




Claim: Autism is caused by vaccines, and specifically, by the thimerosal ─ sold under the commercial name Thiomersal ─ used as a conservation agent in the MMR vaccine. (Thimerosal is mercury-based, which led to great controversy in the 1970s.)


Facts:


I am autistic ─ officially diagnosed. I have never been administered the MMR vaccine. I also perfectly know which parts of my behavior and personality are psychological, and which parts are due to my autistic neurology. And I understand the science.


Thiomersal has already no longer been included in any vaccines since the 1980s, exactly because of the controversy surrounding it.


Autism has been proven to be an exclusively genetically originated neurological difference ─ not a disease, nor brain damage. At least twelve (12) genes responsible for an autism spectrum neurology ─ which encompasses many different manifestations, including but not limited to ADHD, synesthesia, eidetic memory, high-functioning autism, low-functioning autism, OCD and a few other conditions ─ have been identified.


Andrew Wakefield, the hero of the anti-vaxx movement, is a proven fraud, who was found guilty of not only having falsified his research at the benefit of a law firm involved in a high-profile lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company ─ and for the record, I'm not exactly a fan of the pharmaceutical industry ─ but also of having grossly violated all ethics by injecting a number of unwitting teenagers at a party without their explicit consent, and of having treated his official patients unprofessionally and with total disregard for their wellbeing. And all of those things are documented. You don't have to believe me. Just consult with the British register for why Andrew Wakefield was barred from ever practising medicine again.




And may I ask if you are a scientist, Frank?

I have said so already, Onawah ─ on this thread here, even. And in many fields too. I also happen to ─ and I hate having to say this ─ have a very high IQ, and I've got an eidetic memory. It is more difficult for me to forget something than to remember it (and for that matter, often into great detail).


And do you dispute that there is a population reduction agenda afoot by the elite?

Do I dispute it? No, but only because I'm not convinced in either direction.

While I can understand that there are concerns regarding the continuing growth of the population and that there are people lobbying for a considered attempt by each individual household to please stop putting so many new children into the world, at the same time it seems illogical that the elites would want to reduce the population, because right now, the more of us there are, the higher the elites' standards of living.

They're feeding off of us like leeches. We're still useful to them, and they know all too well that if ─ say ─ some 75% of the population were to disappear, then they themselves are going to have to come down from their ivory towers and do the dirty work that we are now doing for them.

So, I'm not convinced that there would be any plans for a mass culling. But at the same time, invading countries and starting wars is always a good way to cull at least some part of the local population and keep the numbers at a rough status quo.


Just wanting to get clear on some basic points, because when the Admin seems to be supporting mainstream narratives, I begin to wonder if this is still really a conspiracy theory forum.
Thanks.

Well, another two things here...


One ─ I am one of the administrators here at Project Avalon, and when Bill hired me on the team, I didn't receive any memo from him that I was expected to abandon my personal opinions and convictions. And Bill does not expect that from me, either. He fully respects my individuality, just as he respects the individuality of every member at this forum. I am just as entitled to my personal opinion as you are, Onawah, and not only that, but I am also just as entitled as you to speak my opinion and share my knowledge, even if it disagrees with yours or anyone else's here.


Two - Project Avalon is not a conspiracy forum, nor is it a political forum. It is a community forum, which deals with esoteric subjects such as the extraterrestrial presence (including any government or industrial cover-ups thereof), spirituality, science, social issues (including politics and sociology, albeit that there's a huge difference between discussing social-political science and choosing sides in a never-ending and exclusively US-centric bipartisan war), historical research, and so on. The conspiracy research angle is only one very small part of all of the things that Project Avalon as a community forum offers to its members and visitors.


And research is research ─ not: listening to YouTube talking heads who make up your mind for you, fostering cognitive biases and/or jerking your knees against anything mainstream. Because all this does ─ and the same goes for all of the QAnon mania ─ is create more division. One does not become enlightened or "awake" by rejecting the mainstream and choosing to be "alternative". Because then all you're doing is moving from one room on the ground floor to another room on the ground floor, and then you're still stuck in that "us versus them" paradigm. Then you're still stuck in the battle between the thesis and the antithesis.

Enlightenment is finding your way to the staircase and climbing up to the next floor, towards the synthesis. And I am sad to have to say that I am seeing very little of that anymore around here. It's not all gone, but the members exhibiting knee-jerk reactions and paranoia, the members who focus on rejecting the mainstream, and the members whose focus lies on the very parochial battle between the reincarnation of Benito Mussolini on the one hand and on the other hand, a bunch of corrupt corporate globalists who seek to turn the entire world into a corporate empire under their control, those members are the loudest bunch of them all. And it shows a completely aberrant picture of the forum to unwitting visitors ─ which is why, to name but one example, the QAnon stuff was put into a members-only section.

Project Avalon exists so as to be able to rise above all of that bickering between thesis and antithesis. Bill founded this forum as a resource for finding solutions to the problems that exist in this world ─ whichever problems they might be ─ and as an online home for people willing to go that journey with him. And look at what you're all doing to this place.

That's all I've got to say about this, and as I stated at the beginning of this post, this is my last post on this thread. So, to whomever it concerns, please don't quote me in an attempt to elicit further responses from me on this thread, because I am not going to post to it anymore. I started this thread ─ which I've also posted at The One Truth ─ with the intent of bringing an important scientific discovery and hypothesis to the attention of this community. I did not start this thread as an invitation to the naysayers to come and flaunt their cognitive biases all over the place.

And yet that's exactly what happened. I guess I should have known better. You may color me naive if you want, although I'd say that it was more innocence than naivité which prompted me to start this thread and share this information with you all.

I can only speak for myself. I would always want you to have the right to speak/not speak, share/not share your opinion. MO you seem to think(IMO from my experience with you in the past) that when you have "learned something", then that is the Truth and it is offensive to hear a challenge. That is especially so when it touches toes with a personal self identification. For all I know you may have blocked me and will never read this reply.

What we CAN ALL AGREE upon IMO and maybe you will nod head....

There is No place to "go" now if a person keeps pace with a different drummer. Used to be that I as a PROUD antivaxxer could say... Humm. I am going to move to a frontier state where I can be left alone.

There is no place to GO in a global technocracy.

I would like to say that I am ALSO able to read science.

I am NOT a freak in thinking that the "technology" which has many of us concerned about the future is no longer optional and is coming with a terrible price.

I am certain that autoimmune issues, neurological disorders, GI issues and metabolic issues are CURABLE by eliminating toxicity. I feel so sad to see so many suffering.

However I would be JUST fine with you or anyone stocking up on all the tech you like... vaccinate away, sit in front of 5G all day, drink monsanto cocktails while you play your games online. Whatever!

BUT I AM COERCED TO PARTICIPATE.

My beef with YOU and others is that you parrot "Andrew wakefield" is a quack (as if you know) AND all of YOU parrots led us here to mandatory participation in self injury "for the good of the PEOPLE (of course WE are NOT people but animals in the plan)".

Still I must champion your right to speak. IF you don't sulk off because we dare be "divergent" that is.....

[aceninja]

My problem here is what criteria did they use to verify it is the virus?
Seems like everything but the kitchen sink thrown in.
Ferguson's modelling with horrendous forecasts which have fortunately not materialised would lea me to doubt the results s in the study

Chris

COVID-19 is the disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The analysis is of the genes of the actual virus itself and its affects on the human body

[aceninja]

But I thought the virus hasn’t actually been isolated so how can you test for that? It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus. I can’t take the report at face value. Would need to know the criteria involved.

You cannot create a test for the virus if it hasn’t been isolated :-). You can easily verify independently that is has indeed been isolated.

When evaluating who/what to believe, it is important to trust things you can independently verify, otherwise you are easily lead astray.

[One]

Mercola article based on the data.
"These 10 pills could obliterate COVID-19, where's the media?"
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/09/14/bradykinin-hypothesis.aspx

[Bill Ryan]

Mercola article based on the data.
"These 10 pills could obliterate COVID-19, where's the media?"
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/09/14/bradykinin-hypothesis.aspx@ onawah, this is a detailed, interesting and typically intelligent Mercola article. (You're a subscriber, as am I, so you may well have already read it.) And you know how rock-solid and reliable Dr Mercola is.

But you started your Scientific Materialism versus Truth (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111979-Scientific-Materialism-versus-Truth) thread largely in criticism of the newly published Bradykinin hypothesis. You can't have it all ways! :bearhug:

greybeard/Chris often says he "just doesn't know", and claims he's merely posting information. But that's intellectually weak.

What's your own position here?

[selinam]

But I thought the virus hasn’t actually been isolated so how can you test for that? It’s been proven the COVID test can’t even test for the virus. I can’t take the report at face value. Would need to know the criteria involved.

You cannot create a test for the virus if it hasn’t been isolated :-). You can easily verify independently that is has indeed been isolated.

Actually I have looked for this information and have not found it yet- so maybe not so easy. Have you found a verifiable source?

When evaluating who/what to believe, it is important to trust things you can independently verify, otherwise you are easily lead astray.

That’s right. I can’t verify this is an actual novel virus because the health community can’t agree either. I can’t verify that Bill Gates has the medical background to inform the public on what they need to do for their health. All I can verify is the info from all sources is so contradicting that no-one seems to know the actual truth.

[thepainterdoug]

Frank

I dont doubt your story and experience with this illness. Im sorry for your suffering. You may know Im not a great supporter of this virus pandemic or its necessity. Im open to being wrong, and really just want the truth of things.

Its a strange virus, supposedly so contagious, yet so few in my wide circles and beyond have gotten it or died. Seems mainly older people with co morbidities.Young people and children hardly effected.

But why the censoring of a variety of Doctors and the alt remedies? If people were truly in fear of a dangerous deadly virus, wouldnt they be open, excited and grateful, to hear about Hydroxychloriquine or Ivermectin ? Why would these several ready to go and affoardable remedies be marginalized ? Why so many doctors including Oxford doctors be silenced?
This is what smells of agenda to me.
37 years ago my young sister was diagnosed with Aids. The doctors demanded she go on AZT or she had no hope. My mom and dad were at total loss of what to do and I screamed at the top of my lungs to buy her a coffin if they put her on AZT. AZT killed all those aids patients.
I kept her off AZT, we went to alt meds and kicked it along and then got her to Italy for Hyperthermia. Today she is still with us and living large while the guy she shared a needle with has been deceased for 37 years..
I tell you this because the Med industry and the scientists can be wrong and their science can be driven with $$$ agendas in mind. Im not a doctor, but put stock in my intuition and common sense. There is something very wrong with this "pandemic" reeks of world politics. Why fudging the Covid, Pnemonia and Influenza numbers? And this is in no disrespect to you Frank. Obviously there is something to this virus. It does exist. But to this degree of measure?? thanks

[Frank V]

Frank

I dont doubt your story and experience with this illness. Im sorry for your suffering. You may know Im not a great supporter of this virus pandemic or its necessity. Im open to being wrong, and really just want the truth of things.

Its a strange virus, supposedly so contagious, yet so few in my wide circles and beyond have gotten it or died. Seems mainly older people with co morbidities.Young people and children hardly effected.

But why the censoring of a variety of Doctors and the alt remedies? If people were truly in fear of a dangerous deadly virus, wouldnt they be open, excited and grateful, to hear about Hydroxychloriquine or Ivermectin ? Why would these several ready to go and affoardable remedies be marginalized ? Why so many doctors including Oxford doctors be silenced?
This is what smells of agenda to me.
37 years ago my young sister was diagnosed with Aids. The doctors demanded she go on AZT or she had no hope. My mom and dad were at total loss of what to do and I screamed at the top of my lungs to buy her a coffin if they put her on AZT. AZT killed all those aids patients.
I kept her off AZT, we went to alt meds and kicked it along and then got her to Italy for Hyperthermia. Today she is still with us and living large while the guy she shared a needle with has been deceased for 37 years..
I tell you this because the Med industry and the scientists can be wrong and their science can be driven with $$$ agendas in mind. Im not a doctor, but put stock in my intuition and common sense. There is something very wrong with this "pandemic" reeks of world politics. Why fudging the Covid, Pnemonia and Influenza numbers? And this is in no disrespect to you Frank. Obviously there is something to this virus. It does exist. But to this degree of measure?? thanks

Doug, I had promised myself not to post on this thread again unless another scientific discovery regarding this virus were to come up that I felt was going to be important enough to share. But I will make an exception for you now ─ one exception, because I will not be drawn into any debates regarding the validity of the threat. We are way past that now. The virus is real, and it does kill ─ selectively, apparently, but it kills nevertheless. However, the danger does not lie in the fatality rate of the virus. The danger lies in how rapidly this thing spreads. And the more rapidly it spreads, the more potentially fatal victims there will be. That has so far always been the concern with this disease.

Now, as for why the numbers in the USA say this or that, and the whole controversy around it, and the he-said-she-said, that is something I do not want to get into. I live in Europe, and we have our own doctors, our own mainstream and alternative media, and our own ways of dealing with this ─ each country on its own, independent from the European Union, and in fact in quite selfish ways too. Both France and Germany for instance were caught trying to reserve all of the test kits for themselves, and to hell with the other European countries.

I will however tell you one thing, and it applies to far more than just the coronavirus pandemic. It's called Hanlon's Razor, and it goes something like...



"Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity."

[thepainterdoug]

Are you calling me stupid?? just to understand your intentions? Are my questions and views not fair? Im certainly not the only one here.

And your explanation is fine and adequate with me.///

" The danger lies in how rapidly this thing spreads. And the more rapidly it spreads, the more potentially fatal victims there will be. That has so far always been the concern with this disease."

[Bill Ryan]

"Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity."


Yes, I do think that often applies to various things.

But re Covid, way too much has gone badly in too many spectacular ways all over the world for this to be some kind of global super-aggregation of "stupidity".

From the release of the virus in China (or wherever it first came from! It'd been found to have been in Barcelona as early as March 2019), to the near-criminal actions of the WHO, to the co-ordinated suppression of valid simple treatments, to the censorship of informed discussion, to the falsification (exaggeration) of statistics, to the "incompetence" of the CDC...

...it's malice, globally organized at a very high level.

The virus is real, and the research paper about the Bradykinin storm looks very plausible. And it's pretty much known (at least by some!) that the virus was bio-engineered. Whether or not it was designed as a weapon, it's acted like one. Some people get badly affected, whether or not it's fatal for them. It's been gene-sequenced 52,592 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra/?term=txid2697049%5BOrganism:noexp%5D%20NOT%200[Mbases) times. There are some well-researched cheap-and-easy treatments (and do-it-yourself preventative measures) that really work. That's the science.

But the rest is malice.

[Frank V]

Are you calling me stupid??

No, Doug. :rolleyes: I was calling the CDC stupid. And the media. And Donald Trump.

[thepainterdoug]

Frank I wish you well and fill us in on the complications that may arise./ d

[onawah]

I saw the article last night and thought about posting it, but I was too tired, and figured someone else surely would.
I'm afraid you still haven't understood my reasons for posting the Scientific Materialism thread.
It wasn't to dispute the Bradykinin hypothesis.
If you're really interested in my reasons, please go back and read that thread again.
I think I was pretty clear.
I think the other members who have posted there have largely understood my motivations, so perhaps reading them would be a good idea as well.
As stated, I already spend far too much time on this forum than is good for me, and I really don't want to get caught up in debates or personality conflicts, which I find exhausting.
If I remain, it will be because it's a forum that is widely read, and my hope is that the info I post will help others to arrive at valid conclusions.

I think you really should engage Greybeard directly if he returns, if you still have an issue with him, and not put me in the middle.



Mercola article based on the data.
"These 10 pills could obliterate COVID-19, where's the media?"
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/09/14/bradykinin-hypothesis.aspx@ onawah, this is a detailed, interesting and typically intelligent Mercola article. (You're a subscriber, as am I, so you may well have already read it.) And you know how rock-solid and reliable Dr Mercola is.

But you started your Scientific Materialism versus Truth (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111979-Scientific-Materialism-versus-Truth) thread largely in criticism of the newly published Bradykinin hypothesis. You can't have it all ways! :bearhug:

greybeard/Chris often says he "just doesn't know", and claims he's merely posting information. But that's intellectually weak.

What's your own position here?

update: For what it's worth, I never disputed that there is a virus, nor did I dispute that there isn't.
I don't think that scientists really understand all there is to know about viruses or other factors which may be causing what they've decided is viral.
Nor do I think that the statistics on testing or masks are reliable. See: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111445-Jon-Rappoport-on-the-Covid-Hoax&p=1377275&viewfull=1#post1377275
But I do think that science is being used to further a murderous NWO agenda, and many scientists have been coerced or deluded or corrupted by the creators of that agenda.
If one can really connect the dots, I think that becomes clear enough.
And it seems to me that is what's most important, so I don't care to quibble about the details.
When I look at all the grievous mistakes that science has been making right up until the present, I'm reminded of the segment of Star Trek where Kirk and Spock and Bones time travel back into the past (our present), to a hospital, and Bones is righteously incensed at the deplorably harmful treatments being administered to patients there.
Dr. Toni Bark and Dr. Cheryl Tenpenny have a revealing conversation about such mistakes in this 7th segment of "Vaccines Revealed" free online until tomorrow night.
Ji-xSDyLNVo

[DaveToo]

Um, that's not how it works, Onawah.

5G has been sufficiently tested and found harmless ─ yes, harmless, because it operates at less power than 4G. It merely uses a higher and wider frequency band, which makes it more effective and efficient at transferring lots of digital data, and the roll-out plan involves more antennae, but ─ again ─ they will be weaker. One of the intents is to make the covered area per antenna smaller, so as to provide a higher-resolution grid, which (among other things) aids in navigation ─ e.g. for self-driving vehicles.

Anyway, anyone who makes a claim that contradicts the established scientific facts is the one who has to provide the evidence, not the other way around. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It is up to the Flat-Earthers to prove that Earth would be flat, not up to us to prove that it is round.



You mean like the established scientific facts the telecom industry has neglected to establish?
I'm referring to their admitting that they have not done any scientific studies on the health effects of the 5G equipment they are rolling out all over the world.

How can we make a claim that contradicts the established scientific facts about 5G when the telecom industry is afraid to establish the facts?

Note: After I made my post above, I read another of your posts Frank, that came later, in which you stated you would not reply to any comments addressed to you.
So I will keep my post as is, but for the benefit of others.