The Invasion of America

[Le Chat]

A time lapse view from 1776 to the present day of how the US government systematically took land from Native Americans through treaties and executive orders that were rarely honored for long.

pJxrTzfG2bo

[Satori]

A time lapse view from 1776 to the present day of how the US government systematically took land from Native Americans through treaties and executive orders that were rarely honored for long.

pJxrTzfG2bo

The British Empire and the Vatican as well as Spain and France, that is, the then (and now) established world powers prior to 1776 and thereafter, had a great deal to do with this atrocity too. I do not believe it’s is proper to visit the sins of the fathers, grand fathers, great, great.... grandfathers....... upon the sons and daughters of today.

I’m to be counted among those of all races and religions etc... willing to work together today for a better tomorrow for all. The white privileged-American, or white whatever, guilt trip does not work on me. To the contrary.

[Mashika]

A time lapse view from 1776 to the present day of how the US government systematically took land from Native Americans through treaties and executive orders that were rarely honored for long.

pJxrTzfG2bo

The British Empire and the Vatican as well as Spain and France, that is, the then (and now) established world powers prior to 1776 and thereafter, had a great deal to do with this atrocity too. I do not believe it’s is proper to visit the sins of the fathers, grand fathers, great, great.... grandfathers....... upon the sons and daughters of today.

I’m to be counted among those of all races and religions etc... willing to work together today for a better tomorrow for all. The white privileged-American, or white whatever, guilt trip does not work on me. To the contrary.

I have always had a big issue with "America" as a name, simply because of this

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=44781&d=1602731722

Sure we can say that it's been called like that for so long that it could not be changed by now, but this goes into the same mindset of the Monroe doctrine

I believe there's a lot of misconception about this from people in the US, they are not even aware of the problem from what i've seen. Please don't misunderstand me, i'm not attacking US people, i'm just bringing this up as a way to note why the root of the problem goes beyond just religions/races

I'm going to post something my sister asked on her first year of middle school, when we moved to California some time ago, she got in trouble and was bullied to no end because of it



You see how there's North America, Central and South America?

So let's say you are in Brazil, and you move up north and keep going, then you are in Central America,

Then you keep going forward and you reach Mexico, then you are in North America.
Then you keep going and finally reach... America?


The main problem with all these things is, that that name was not anyone's to own, but it does seem that a lot of people get very angry when it is mentioned that the entire continent was "America" and not "The Americas", because it doesn't make any sense, if we are in "The Americas" then it means every single person born on this place, regardless of country, is "American", but they're not? Only people in the US are "Americans"

This has caused resentment in ways i don't think most people in the US are aware of

So to start fixing things, it would first be needed to stop thinking the entire continent is property of the US, as the Monroe doctrine teaches and as it is followed by the US government up to these days

That includes the natives specifically, since they are voice less, considered "poor" and uneducated and by most standards "lesser beings"

In the US, people are considered by their race still, Native-American, African-American, Mexican-American, Russian-American and so on

But, who are the British-American? That's not usual term you hear, those are just "Americans"

People native to Argentina are called "Latinos'? or "Argentinian-American", see? That's the problem right there (There is no/very little difference between Mexicans and Argentinians, or Chileans or whatever, except for the native people who have more 'pure blood'), no matter what, these people will get labeled by whatever country their ancestors were born, Italian-American and so on, once you put a label on a person, things have gone bad. And is not just race, but to make them "different" from the "real" Americans, because to me, if you were born in this continent, regardless of parents or family, you are "American", and nothing else, but that's not the current reality at all

To fix things up, it would have to start from right there, but i don't think that's possible anymore

[scotslad]

I seem to remember a tv interview with Russia's Putin. (A BBC journalist i think it was asked why Russia had such an aggressive foreign policy) Putin replied that if one asked oneself how many countries the USA had military bases in that were not on its borders and compared that to Russia - perhaps the reporter's perception and opinion might change. ;)

[amor]

I wish to correct a politically motivated statement which is not only incorrect, it is an attempt to STEAL ALASKA FROM THE RIGHTFUL HEIRS OF CZAR NICHOLAS II WHO ARE ALIVE IN THE USA TODAY. The LEASE ON ALASKA EXPIRED IN THE MID-SIXTIES. RUSSIA IS NOT THE OWNER EITHER. IT BELONGED TO CZAR ALEXANDER III, AFTER WHOSE DEATH IT DEVOLVED TO HIS SON AND HEIR AND HIS HEIRS.

[Mashika]

I wish to correct a politically motivated statement which is not only incorrect, it is an attempt to STEAL ALASKA FROM THE RIGHTFUL HEIRS OF CZAR NICHOLAS II WHO ARE ALIVE IN THE USA TODAY. The LEASE ON ALASKA EXPIRED IN THE MID-SIXTIES. RUSSIA IS NOT THE OWNER EITHER. IT BELONGED TO CZAR ALEXANDER III, AFTER WHOSE DEATH IT DEVOLVED TO HIS SON AND HEIR AND HIS HEIRS.

The Bolsheviks were not kind to anyone but to their own, and even then, not all the time, so all rightfulness would have been stripped anyway after the revolution

But the Alaska deal happened before, it was sold to the US in 1867 by Alexander II, before Nicholas II was around. I never heard about an expiring lease, but may have missed it. As far as i knew it was a final sale, not a lease to the US.

However i did read some time ago that the debt was never fully paid by the US, and so they don't really own the land, but i'm not sure if that's really true or is the Bolsheviks (the soviets) again trying to regain power, as they always do in all possible ways

In any case, it would most likely be impossible to reclaim the land at this point, because "it is what it is and too much time has gone by"

Anyway, never trust a Bolshevik, they are family and friends until one day they wake up and decide you have been too friendly lately and therefore you must be up to something, next day they show up in numbers to decide your faith for your imaginary treason

[thepainterdoug]

this is called progress sorry to say. Native Americans also killed and took land from other Native American tribes. Annd then europeans did the same .
similar to slavery, african tribes conquered other african tribes and then sold them as slaves. its all pretty sad and Im embarrassed about it as a HUMAN BEING

its easy to beat up on americans , I get it. But nature plays this out everyday in the wilds.
What makes us so evolved from killer bees?

[Mashika]

this is called progress sorry to say. Native Americans also killed and took land from other Native American tribes. Annd then europeans did the same .
similar to slavery, african tribes conquered other african tribes and then sold them as slaves. its all pretty sad and Im embarrassed about it as a HUMAN BEING

its easy to beat up on americans , I get it. But nature plays this out everyday in the wilds.
What makes us so evolved from killer bees?

Is not the act itself, but what follows

At this point in time, every one is (or at least should be aware) of what happened, but they look into it and say "whatever", and continue to do the same while claiming to be "more advanced"

On Spain, Mexico, Brazil, Chile and Guatemala, plus other countries, there are no labels such as "xxx-American" or whatever continent or country they came from

I like my friends for who they are, why there's a need to label them? Mexican-Americans are just "Americans", labeling them just makes them be "different" and possibly "lesser" than a true full "American", its like the "great value" version

And that's pure hipocrisy

[thepainterdoug]

but where i disagree is the term" different". why is different ,lessor or greater. is a white, blue or red ball less a ball than another ball?

classical music is different than soul or rap. i like differences. differences are somehow being made to be wrong. i think they are simply reality and what makes life interesting.

its the value judgement people make thats incorrect. and when it comes to people, yes i get it. but to pretend not to see differences is just kicking the can down the road to a bigger problem. denial of truth .

my rule? I love everyone until they give me a reason not to.

[Mashika]

but where i disagree is the term" different". why is different ,lessor or greater. is a white, blue or red ball less a ball than another ball?

classical music is different than soul or rap. i like differences. differences are somehow being made to be wrong. i think they are simply reality and what makes life interesting.

its the value judgement people make thats incorrect. and when it comes to people, yes i get it. but to pretend not to see differences is just kicking the can down the road to a bigger problem. denial of truth .

my rule? I love everyone until they give me a reason not to.

The comparison to balls is odd

I could say, that for me, you are not American at all, you are from some european country, probably british, so you are British-American

People in the US don't even know how to pronounce the natives names correctly, like California, Nevada, New Mexico and so on

So, should i consider them "less educated" because of it? I mean what's the deal with "New" Mexico" and then have the wrong pronunciation for "Mexico".

Did you read about the lady/guy who got their driving license revoked because the person at the gov office saw "New Mexico" on her id and asked to show some kind of id that proved she was an US citizen? And only ID she had was the exact same ID where the gov personal read the word "Mexico", then she was rejected for her driving license? What do you think of that?

Imagine why this is happening, what kind of education leads to this, at all?

Yes you are a different better person, i can attest to that, you have been kind and nice to me, and i love that, but not everyone is like you. What i'm saying is that if you look deep into the roots of the culture, there's this "I'm American and you are a lesser-American" thing going on, so how can things be solved when the rest of the world is aware of this particular issue, but most "Americans" arent?

Being born on the same state/country/continent makes you all the same, regardless of where your parents were born at

Otherwise you are not American, you are British-American and that's final, just like every other person who was born on the US but from parents/roots from another country is labeled

Being called "British-American" and not just "American", Is that something you would be willing to accept? Most people would not

[Mashika]

I just want to clarify that i'm not trying to insult or otherwise say i hate US people, because i don't at all, ever

My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix it unless the root of this problem "we" and "them" is fixed

But it's seems almost impossible to do

[thepainterdoug]

Mashika, I think I understand what you are expressing . And I take no offense to anything you are saying. Im just a person. A person on planet earth doing my best to navigate and mitigate all presented me. But I guess someone could say Im lucky to even be able to have that position in life to say that. I cannot fix the world, only myself and Im not so sure fixing is necessary.

Is it possible that " fixing "is not necessary?
The amusement park has many rides, many attractions. We choose to get on the rides, eat the cotton candy, go to the fun house or the house of horrors or just sit and watch others do it.
if the amusement park was made more fair, more even, less diverse with less differences, more safety's, check points and more risk averse, would it be an amusement park at all? Thats the thing Im seeing now and it's spreading everywhere.

The point is to experience it in all its diversity. And it's what we make of it that matters.

Seneca said to study Nature. Nothing in human terms is fair in Nature. Size , strength, poisons, stealth, camouflage , cunning and so on. Diversity everywhere.
hope I'm not going off the rails.

my best to you Mashika

[Strat]

Being born on the same state/country/continent makes you all the same, regardless of where your parents were born at

Otherwise you are not American, you are British-American and that's final, just like every other person who was born on the US but from parents/roots from another country is labeled

Being called "British-American" and not just "American", Is that something you would be willing to accept? Most people would not

I can't disagree more. Either I am misreading you or you are nitpicking your information. I truly don't mean disrespect (I'm often lacking at choosing the right words) and I'll elaborate later. I'm on 2hrs of sleep because of my damn allergies acting up so I'll get back to you.

Oh and I get what you're saying but nobody says British-American, they specify where they're from. So they'll say English, Welsh, etc. I've often heard many non-US folks say they think it's weird how we are so interested in taking DNA test and tracking our ancestry. It's just a cultural thing. Have you been to Miami? Or Little Italy? Or Chinatown? Has your sister gone to a black guy and said, "You're my people"? We are different and we take pride in this.

And not directed toward you, or the OP, but the Bastard American/NA discussion is tiring. Everyone would do the same. Read the historical accounts of Spanish Missionaries or read how the French regarded the Natives in FL. It's not a US thing it is a human thing. Whoever has the biggest stick wins. It's how Egypt was united, the hieroglyphics is literally a guy with a stick bashing heads in. It's still happening to this day in the Amazon and the Congo and I'm sure elsewhere.

EDIT: Mashika, I think we may be debating 2 different things, and if so, much of what I just said is off topic. Your discourse with Doug threw me off. But again, no sleep on my part can lead to silly mistakes (at least that's my excuse :o).

[Agape]

I think there is only one crucial change to our human history we can make now and that’s when we stop being so hard,
at each other and so called “others” no matter who they are.

Not in my name : we still discriminate, segregate people, push them on boats, let the boats drown if we think they are not ours, we still send people to “camps”, millions living in refugee camps all over the globe, not ours (?),
someone else’s people.

So sad😢

What does it help to argue about what Columbus did if we are still doing that, in almost every country under the headers of governmental policies.

Most of today’s countries and territories were captured and acquired through some bloody war.

Majority of human populace do not live on any sort of “ancestral land” at all. This current population has traversed the globe and sailed around number of times.
Those dying aborigines can be the last biological descendants of advanced people of previous epoch who returned to the bushes.

This place is a Planet and no God has ever marked borders between people or told them not to intermarry or travel.

What people do to themselves in the name of their “me pride” is always ignorant.

“We” have to understand now and stop pushing the “other people” so hard on who they are, white, black, native, local or non-local. “We” means the “People” as in “we are the people”, we are the children of the Universe.
We were born free under the Stars and there is nothing we do not deserve that we truly need, and there’s lots of space out there, clean air and water the most.


As long as people are stupid and unwilling to accept and embrace each other as friends,
taking care only of “their family survival” ,
the injury to your own will continue ..

since you never know who was the man on the boat.


We live in dangerous times and due to sheer numbers of people
it could turn more dangerous yet.

Proportionally to the amount of education and information globally missing I am not even too optimistic about it unless people can stop “shopping” and can start helping each other immediately instead.


No doubts it’s also possible 🙏🌟🙏

[Orph]

My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........

Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

Shucks, ........ Orph says:

"Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread. :haha:

[O Donna]

Some good points brought up in this thread with interesting history graphics, thank you.

..................

Difference is as a fly in the ointment, played ad infinitum.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/aa/15/0a/aa150aed85bfc807cd86b1ca3510096b.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTfL-DtpXk

[Mashika]

My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........

Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

Shucks, ........ Orph says:

"Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread. :haha:

There is a reasoning behind those things, but i think we are going way off topic now

But let's look, for example, into my own life experience

I was born in Russia, from a Russian mother (from cossack origins) and a Japanese father

Am i "Russian-Japanese" or "Japanese-Russian". I have never been called any of those, ever, i'm just Russian, because i was born on Russia

Also there entire Asian continent is comprised of around 48 countries, but you never hear terms like "chinese-asian", "russian-asian", "japanese-aian", "Vietnamese-asian", you are from your country, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and you are also "Asian" as in a global thing because you were born in that country, which happens to exist on the Asian continent

On the case of America, the entire continent was named like that from way before the US existed, but suddenly only US citizens are "Americans", unlike Europeans or Asians

Why? Nobody asked the other countries about it, nobody cared if they were going to be upset. And i said before, the Monroe doctrine teaches that the entire continent belongs to the US in some ways, and people are aware of this

Just "let it go" and "it is what it is" is not enough to fix this, because it's the same as saying "i don't care if you are hurt or feel cheated out", and that's why resentment grew over the years and people are not happy with that

If you look at the continent maps from other countries, there's always the name "American continent" and then one of the countries on that map is the US, there is never mention of "The Americas"

Asia is very big, there's south, east, west, north Asia, yet i bet you have never heard or read the term "The Asias"

There are no Chinese-asians, or similar labels for any other country on the Asian continent, there are Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean people and so on, who also happen to be Asian

All of them are Asian, just as every single person in The American continent is American, and not just the US citizens

But i know this will never be fixed or accepted, there will always be a way to work around it. But only for the purpose of keeping things the way they are, and that's why a lot of people in the other countries in America are not happy and even on the US country land, they feel "lesser" and rejected. There is no way to move forward if the core of the culture has it on it, that there are two kinds of Americans

How can you unify and "do our best to get by in this very imperfect world" when at the very core of your normal daily life, the concept of "we" and "them" is affirmed in an immutable way?

I love my "African-American" friends, and if something happens to one of them, the police report and hospital cards must likely will show this label on there

[Mashika]

Being born on the same state/country/continent makes you all the same, regardless of where your parents were born at

Otherwise you are not American, you are British-American and that's final, just like every other person who was born on the US but from parents/roots from another country is labeled

Being called "British-American" and not just "American", Is that something you would be willing to accept? Most people would not

I can't disagree more. Either I am misreading you or you are nitpicking your information. I truly don't mean disrespect (I'm often lacking at choosing the right words) and I'll elaborate later. I'm on 2hrs of sleep because of my damn allergies acting up so I'll get back to you.

Oh and I get what you're saying but nobody says British-American, they specify where they're from. So they'll say English, Welsh, etc. I've often heard many non-US folks say they think it's weird how we are so interested in taking DNA test and tracking our ancestry. It's just a cultural thing. Have you been to Miami? Or Little Italy? Or Chinatown? Has your sister gone to a black guy and said, "You're my people"? We are different and we take pride in this.

And not directed toward you, or the OP, but the Bastard American/NA discussion is tiring. Everyone would do the same. Read the historical accounts of Spanish Missionaries or read how the French regarded the Natives in FL. It's not a US thing it is a human thing. Whoever has the biggest stick wins. It's how Egypt was united, the hieroglyphics is literally a guy with a stick bashing heads in. It's still happening to this day in the Amazon and the Congo and I'm sure elsewhere.

EDIT: Mashika, I think we may be debating 2 different things, and if so, much of what I just said is off topic. Your discourse with Doug threw me off. But again, no sleep on my part can lead to silly mistakes (at least that's my excuse :o).

Most likely my constant lack of English skills, i'm truly sorry about that

But see my previous post

Have you ever heard the term "russian-asian" or "japanese-asian", i don't think so, but you do hear the one "japanese-American"

Just letting the issue go is exactly how we got to this point, these labels are basically saying those people are not the same, they have labels to identify them as partial Americans

Except they are not, they were born on American land, so they are full Americans. This particular issue i have only seen on the US, i have never heard of "Russian-Italian" for example, or "Russian-Pakistani", they were born in Russia and are Russians, and that's that

The resentment built through generations, and the lack of will to change this, is what makes the US a broken country as you can see right now, "we and them"

[Strat]

Ahhh ok Mashika I hear ya. Yeah I was somewhat off topic. You're right, I agree with you. It's something I work on within my community and culture to repair our image with the world. I'm very aware of what you're saying and your frustration is justified in my eyes. This is a fascinating topic in my opinion and I could 'text wall' regarding it.

[East Sun]

In the grand scheme of our process through time as in our recent history , why do the people who
did the most damage to our western world get off free of ridicule.

Exterminating indigenous peoples on many cotenants, taking their lands, implementing genocide
on a large scale, on and on, but we never hear of the finger pointing directly at them, as it should be.

Why is that? Can anyone give me an explanation that I don't already know that is obvious.
Maybe someone can make excuses or rationalize this phenomena.

I would like to hear what people have to say.

[Agape]

My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........

Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

Shucks, ........ Orph says:

"Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread. :haha:

There is a reasoning behind those things, but i think we are going way off topic now

But let's look, for example, into my own life experience

I was born in Russia, from a Russian mother (from cossack origins) and a Japanese father

Am i "Russian-Japanese" or "Japanese-Russian". I have never been called any of those, ever, i'm just Russian, because i was born on Russia

Also there entire Asian continent is comprised of around 48 countries, but you never hear terms like "chinese-asian", "russian-asian", "japanese-aian", "Vietnamese-asian", you are from your country, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and you are also "Asian" as in a global thing because you were born in that country, which happens to exist on the Asian continent

On the case of America, the entire continent was named like that from way before the US existed, but suddenly only US citizens are "Americans", unlike Europeans or Asians

Why? Nobody asked the other countries about it, nobody cared if they were going to be upset. And i said before, the Monroe doctrine teaches that the entire continent belongs to the US in some ways, and people are aware of this

Just "let it go" and "it is what it is" is not enough to fix this, because it's the same as saying "i don't care if you are hurt or feel cheated out", and that's why resentment grew over the years and people are not happy with that

If you look at the continent maps from other countries, there's always the name "American continent" and then one of the countries on that map is the US, there is never mention of "The Americas"

Asia is very big, there's south, east, west, north Asia, yet i bet you have never heard or read the term "The Asias"

There are no Chinese-asians, or similar labels for any other country on the Asian continent, there are Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean people and so on, who also happen to be Asian

All of them are Asian, just as every single person in The American continent is American, and not just the US citizens

But i know this will never be fixed or accepted, there will always be a way to work around it. But only for the purpose of keeping things the way they are, and that's why a lot of people in the other countries in America are not happy and even on the US country land, they feel "lesser" and rejected. There is no way to move forward if the core of the culture has it on it, that there are two kinds of Americans

How can you unify and "do our best to get by in this very imperfect world" when at the very core of your normal daily life, the concept of "we" and "them" is affirmed in an immutable way?

I love my "African-American" friends, and if something happens to one of them, the police report and hospital cards must likely will show this label on there




Mashika: from my perspective this discussion is juvenile. You don’t have to believe everything that people tell you. It’s really upon you what you believe in 🌸

Suppose you had a brother who would be more like your father and he would feel he’s Japanese and went to live to Japan,
he still could face some kind of social confrontation with the fact that his mother was not fully “Japanese”.
Most likely not so these days but in every country so far and through the past centuries would they discriminate against foreign elements.

I’d say be happy you’re young and don’t understand “all the rest” about what are those people up to and breeding their “pure lineages” when the time comes and else

but on the other hand, you may later find out that there are many options for you to identify with, not just one.


Personally, I never felt the need to define myself by my nationality or ethnicity even because I feel universally the same wherever I’m and if people prove too strenuous about their self-definitions it’s probably not the right place for me to be altogether.

I think we have every piece of humanity in us possibly. I lived in India as Indian and in Tibetan monastery as Tibetan and in Europe as Europeans do. I could easily define myself as American by my way of thinking and most of my American friends don’t see any odds in it because when we think alike we share the same identity.
But I can define myself as my own native ancestor too and tell everyone what I think about their “gas”.

I have my Japanese part too and my very pale mum would never agree with me on stuff spiritually because she loved African music and felt like she would find her “tribe” there :)


And I know people who lived actively in about 10 countries and have 4 different passports.


So at the beginning and the end, the “zone” where our self definitions make us rise beyond the differences , the zone of uncertainty turns to a higher passage. Where am I from ? Where are we from ? What’s the message ?


There is no country or system that will give you answers to those questions but some will try, may be all will try their best to define you.



Study the systems :) Think beyond and be free



🙏

[Mashika]

My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........

Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

Shucks, ........ Orph says:

"Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread. :haha:

There is a reasoning behind those things, but i think we are going way off topic now

But let's look, for example, into my own life experience

I was born in Russia, from a Russian mother (from cossack origins) and a Japanese father

Am i "Russian-Japanese" or "Japanese-Russian". I have never been called any of those, ever, i'm just Russian, because i was born on Russia

Also there entire Asian continent is comprised of around 48 countries, but you never hear terms like "chinese-asian", "russian-asian", "japanese-aian", "Vietnamese-asian", you are from your country, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and you are also "Asian" as in a global thing because you were born in that country, which happens to exist on the Asian continent

On the case of America, the entire continent was named like that from way before the US existed, but suddenly only US citizens are "Americans", unlike Europeans or Asians

Why? Nobody asked the other countries about it, nobody cared if they were going to be upset. And i said before, the Monroe doctrine teaches that the entire continent belongs to the US in some ways, and people are aware of this

Just "let it go" and "it is what it is" is not enough to fix this, because it's the same as saying "i don't care if you are hurt or feel cheated out", and that's why resentment grew over the years and people are not happy with that

If you look at the continent maps from other countries, there's always the name "American continent" and then one of the countries on that map is the US, there is never mention of "The Americas"

Asia is very big, there's south, east, west, north Asia, yet i bet you have never heard or read the term "The Asias"

There are no Chinese-asians, or similar labels for any other country on the Asian continent, there are Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean people and so on, who also happen to be Asian

All of them are Asian, just as every single person in The American continent is American, and not just the US citizens

But i know this will never be fixed or accepted, there will always be a way to work around it. But only for the purpose of keeping things the way they are, and that's why a lot of people in the other countries in America are not happy and even on the US country land, they feel "lesser" and rejected. There is no way to move forward if the core of the culture has it on it, that there are two kinds of Americans

How can you unify and "do our best to get by in this very imperfect world" when at the very core of your normal daily life, the concept of "we" and "them" is affirmed in an immutable way?

I love my "African-American" friends, and if something happens to one of them, the police report and hospital cards must likely will show this label on there




Mashika: from my perspective this discussion is juvenile. You don’t have to believe everything that people tell you. It’s really upon you what you believe in 🌸

Suppose you had a brother who would be more like your father and he would feel he’s Japanese and went to live to Japan,
he still could face some kind of social confrontation with the fact that his mother was not fully “Japanese”.
Most likely not so these days but in every country so far and through the past centuries would they discriminate against foreign elements.

I’d say be happy you’re young and don’t understand “all the rest” about what are those people up to and breeding their “pure lineages” when the time comes and else

but on the other hand, you may later find out that there are many options for you to identify with, not just one.


Personally, I never felt the need to define myself by my nationality or ethnicity even because I feel universally the same wherever I’m and if people prove too strenuous about their self-definitions it’s probably not the right place for me to be altogether.

I think we have every piece of humanity in us possibly. I lived in India as Indian and in Tibetan monastery as Tibetan and in Europe as Europeans do. I could easily define myself as American by my way of thinking and most of my American friends don’t see any odds in it because when we think alike we share the same identity.
But I can define myself as my own native ancestor too and tell everyone what I think about their “gas”.

I have my Japanese part too and my very pale mum would never agree with me on stuff spiritually because she loved African music and felt like she would find her “tribe” there :)


And I know people who lived actively in about 10 countries and have 4 different passports.


So at the beginning and the end, the “zone” where our self definitions make us rise beyond the differences , the zone of uncertainty turns to a higher passage. Where am I from ? Where are we from ? What’s the message ?


There is no country or system that will give you answers to those questions but some will try, may be all will try their best to define you.



Study the systems :) Think beyond and be free



🙏

Thank you for your kind words, i do understand them



Mashika: from my perspective this discussion is juvenile. You don’t have to believe everything that people tell you.

I'm mostly talking from my own experience, as well as my sister's as i've seen them back then

What i feel i did not explain correctly is this, there's a difference between you accepting and living your ethnicity, and other people constantly remind you of it, even of official government papers while claiming you are "equal"

I have been in Mexico for lots of years, and Chile, Argentina, Spain, a small run at Iraq and Afghanistan, Japan and even Brazil, nowhere on those countrys, people cared about where i was born, they just talked to me as the person in front of them, but the experience on the US was very different, as soon as we spoke, people would ask about our accent, and "are you really from Russia? You don't look Russian?" and such stuff, well i'm mixed race so i'm not quite the same as a "native-Russian" i would say, and then they would ask me to prove it somehow.

I did and still experience a bit of that in Mexico, but in a lesser, more curious way than the enforcing ways as in the US, here people ask "Eres de Russia?" and when i say yes, sometimes they say "You look more like from Japan hehe, can you say something in japanese and then they laugh and let it go" but in the US i felt like rejection, like "Let's hear you talk in your own language, are you any good at it?", very confrontational, with no reason at all

Why does that even matter? I got angry once and ask them to speak Navajo or whatever language the region their were in was spoken before Columbus came, and they got very angry and told me all sort of bad stuff. Why this anger shows up when someone questions that, but they feel entitled to do the same to people from other countries?

As i said before, i don't hate or dislike US people, but i do wonder why this happens like that, why so much defensive stuff going, and why they don't like that people from other countries in the same "American Continent" could also be called Americans

I have a half-brother in Japan, my father is older than my mom and he had a family before us, he likes me a lot, he sends me presents and it's an incredible guy, he has never, in his entire life, treated me other than just "me", no labels at all, neither my father even though we are distant. My dad has tons of respect for my roots and my grand father, who he met and was good friends with, and my grand father always had good things to say about my dad, they respected and liked each other very much

I never knew about any kind of labels until i went to the US as a teenager, full of ideals and exited to be there and looking up to experience the real thing, and i was not disappointed, the US is an incredible beautiful country, summer time and all that is the real thing, Tennessee is like traveling in time!

And i was plenty happy, except for that single aspect of life that most people ignore but continues over and over, and continually grew as we started resisting the labeling and how it modified the way people acted around us

[Agape]

Dear Mashika, I understand your disenchantment with all those ignorant people.

Yes I found the Spanish speaking parts of the world are more tolerant and warm hearted and I’ve never felt under any social pressure in South America for being “from somewhere else”.

My passport nationality is not much better than yours for that purpose. 20 years ago most people who did not study geography could hardly tell Czech Republic from Chechnya or former Yugoslavia, just by the sound of it and more frequently they asked if we are still “part of Russia” 😅

In those days people in India mostly knew just about 4 foreign countries ( some even 10), the richest countries who make the best movies of course( now I’m exaggerating a bit but generally).

Many American travelers I met over the years surprisingly had about the same geographical knowledge as their Indian cousins :)


On my visit to San Jose in California I passed perfectly for any other Lucy. I enjoyed the atmosphere very much actually if not for the great human diversity.
I’m pretty sure that more than 75% of the population are first and second generation immigrants already.

That’s when the conservative wing started to pull the ropes trying to close the door because they can foresee bigger problems and collisions coming.
Brexit has been inspired by the same people

and this shall make you giggle

but their true inspiration for stable state and ultra orthodox nationalism is none else than ...Russia.

They’re looking admirably at the Putin power allowing him to rule over 20 years now and going.

The world politics is a grotesque pantomime of those people.

God Save the Queen


🦢

[thepainterdoug]

MASHIKA/
Have you ever heard the term "russian-asian" or "japanese-asian", i don't think so, but you do hear the one "japanese-American"


My take on that is because, America was the melting pot of all people.So people get or got that extra tag.
Sort of like the all star game In Hockey, forgive my trite analogy. That game is made up from players from every team.

Personally i really dont care. It doesnt affect me if Im described as American, italian American, Scottish American etc. Im a person.

And yes a male version of a person. lol

[Sarah Rainsong]

It's not as complicated as all that. :hug: People from the United States of AMERICA are Americans, like people from Canada are Canadians, and people from Mexico, Mexicans. The name of the continent is also in the name of country. People can and do add more titles or labels to create more identity, like Georgian or Floridian, southern or midwestern.

I don't know what else you would call people from the United States of America. USians? USAians? That just sounds weird (IMO!) and does not easily roll off the tongue...perhaps one reason why it was never adopted.

[Mashika]

It's not as complicated as all that. :hug: People from the United States of AMERICA are Americans, like people from Canada are Canadians, and people from Mexico, Mexicans. The name of the continent is also in the name of country. People can and do add more titles or labels to create more identity, like Georgian or Floridian, southern or midwestern.

I don't know what else you would call people from the United States of America. USians? USAians? That just sounds weird (IMO!) and does not easily roll off the tongue...perhaps one reason why it was never adopted.


Unfortunately there is way too much more than that going on, i did not expect that all my other posts would be disregarded so easy

Imagine i could say "you own this beautiful house and your name is "Rainsong", i like it and from now on i'm "Raisong" and you are not, you shall be called "british-Raisong" because i'm the real Raisong and no one else can be called that, because i say so, and since the title of your house says it belongs to Raisong now it belongs to me. Do as you wish, i own it now and i will destroy you if you come here asking for it back

Is that fair? Would it cause you some kind of resentment against me?

But "it happened a lot of time ago" and "It is what it is'

[Mashika]

MASHIKA/
Have you ever heard the term "russian-asian" or "japanese-asian", i don't think so, but you do hear the one "japanese-American"


My take on that is because, America was the melting pot of all people.So people get or got that extra tag.
Sort of like the all star game In Hockey, forgive my trite analogy. That game is made up from players from every team.

Personally i really dont care. It doesnt affect me if Im described as American, italian American, Scottish American etc. Im a person.

And yes a male version of a person. lol

Problem is, do the other people who get called partial-American feel the same way? Were they asked at all? IF not, then "That game is made up from players from every team." doesn't really turn true, because there are two levels and on the top one, the other players are not given the same chances at all so the game is made up of "we" and "them" as i had pointed out before

I just don't think this is clear for most people, and i keep repeating myself i know, apologizes for that

[Sarah Rainsong]

Adding additional labels or prefixes doesn't change the fact that Americans are called Americans because it's in our name. It's still the United States of America.

That is mainly what I was addressing. The prefixes are a separate thing.

However, your analogy to my name doesn't work. It's not about a single name. No one goes around calling or being called Chinese-Sarah or anything like that. Not even with family names. It's not Chinese-Rainsong.

It's about ancestral heritage. Most people do choose to use these labels as a way to identify with their heritage and their family's culture. It is not a slur. It is not less-than. And in my IRL experience, people will quickly correct you and get angry when you try to tell them otherwise.

Trying to tell someone that their choice of cultural and family identity makes them "less than" does not go over well.

I will stick with what the people I know IRL prefer and yes, choose: Asian-American, Chinese-American, Korean-American, Filipino-American, African-American, and Hispanic-American.

[Mashika]

Adding additional labels or prefixes doesn't change the fact that Americans are called Americans because it's in our name. It's still the United States of America.

That is mainly what I was addressing. The prefixes are a separate thing.

However, your analogy to my name doesn't work. It's not about a single name. No one goes around calling or being called Chinese-Sarah or anything like that. Not even with family names. It's not Chinese-Rainsong.

It's about ancestral heritage. Most people do choose to use these labels as a way to identify with their heritage and their family's culture. It is not a slur. It is not less-than. And in my IRL experience, people will quickly correct you and get angry when you try to tell them otherwise.

Trying to tell someone that their choice of cultural and family identity makes them "less than" does not go over well.

I will stick with what the people I know IRL prefer and yes, choose: Asian-American, Chinese-American, Korean-American, Filipino-American, African-American, and Hispanic-American.

No you don't understand, it is placed on them, they don't chose it

The American continent existed way before the US country, that's why i said "i like your name so i will take it, do as you wish".

You are not seeing this the right way, chicken and egg

I don't think we are going to be able to figure this out, and you be able to understand why other people feel cheated, affected and angry about it

You said



And in my IRL experience, people will quickly correct you and get angry when you try to tell them otherwise.

"American people?" And yet if you had read my previous posts entirely you would have seen i had already addressed that, and the way you said "Chinese-Rainsong", because it would be all wrong, and if you were called that, you would not like it at all, because no matter what you said, people would tell you to not call yourself "Rainsong", because you are not, you are "Chinese-Rainsong" and nothing more

I don't think we are connecting very well here, i posted a lot of what i have seen through the world, as examples of why this is all wrong, but you are not going to approach it in the same way, or even care. I also said why and how it happened, and i can see it happening again right here, right now. So there is no point, this is just one other instance of what i was talking about before

Better to let it go, as i said, i don't think it can be fixed, but that's one (if not) of the main reasons the US is completely broken

Every single person born in this continent, wether be Mexican, Chilean, Guatemalan, Brasilian or Canadian, etc, is American

I understand you don't see it in the same way, but as i explained in detail in my previous posts, it's on your end, because the US as a country, started way after America existed, so claiming a name that belong to everyone in the continent, is not correct, and look into the Monroe doctrine so you understand better the situation

If not, well it's your lose, wish you the best. I'm out of here now

[Agape]

I think it’s the only country where you can argue about it openly , freedom of speech granted.
In most other countries there’s common social empathy towards “guests” but discrimination towards “strangers”. If you try to rise your voice as British, Finnish or Czech immigrant from anywhere else including the US,
you will be treated with white gloves but on the hard core edge.

And no matter what way will you come out with your “human rights and protest song” you will be on their file forever. More for digging to it.
People will always love you for sharing the table but you can not think of winning the card game.

In every society I believe, we are a kind of guest, even if we were born there. It’s easier to be a guest than a host because possession of certain obligations and titles (including that of being “only American”) binds people to system we can never understand or appreciate fully.

Old saying goes as “no one is prophet in their own land” which reads both ways around. And if you were not born it the US you don’t qualify as presidential candidate, don’t forget about that 😅

[Bill Ryan]

I have to say, I think this is quite an interesting discussion — rightly in the History (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/forumdisplay.php?125-History) section, as all this was set in stone quite some while back. And some of the points Mashika raised I'd never thought about before.

It's really a kind of historical semantic accident, now absorbed into everyday language. But as with many things, the names of countries (and their citizens!) can create a lot of confusion and clumsiness.

For instance, I always roll my eyes whenever I hear Alex Jones talking about "the English leaving the EU". (No, it's the British!!) And when I was a little kid, I remember asking my Dad what "USSR" stood for. He answered with paternal authority, "The United States of Soviet Russia." :bigsmile:

And I'm often assumed to be an Americano here in Ecuador — because that's what they themselves call expats from the US. I always laugh and explain: "¡No soy americano! ¡Vengo de Escocia!" (I'm not American! I come from Scotland!)

:)

[Ernie Nemeth]

There will be no such thing as an American for many more hundred years. Right now all hail from somewhere else. When they forget they are from somewhere else they will begin to call themselves Americans without a hyphen.

Same for all countries. If you go back far enough...Germany wasn't german, Hungarians weren't hungarian, Russia wasn't russian. They claimed hyphenated nationhood. And as they forgot their ancestral origins, they became new nationals.

Nobody is American by heritage, yet - because their histories are too fresh.

[gord]

I is an interesting discussion with numerous valid points, but what would anyone do about it? Hand it over to the UN requesting some sort of law? I wouldn't want to go there.

[TargeT]

I never heard about an expiring lease, but may have missed it. As far as i knew it was a final sale, not a lease to the US.

Yes, it was a final sale, there was no lease.... misinfo is pretty much everywhere.

As far as I know it was paid in full at the time of the purchase (which was not very much money at all...$7.2 million, or about two cents an acre (https://www.history.com/topics/us-states/alaska#:~:text=Russia%20controlled%20most%20of%20the,and%20Kiska%2C%20for%2015%20months.) which is about 126,622,702.70 in "today's money" still a steal of a deal!)

we (US MIL) have far too many assets (including missile silos) there to ever move; it's an extremely strategic area. I worked for the military in that region for 13 years, that area just gets more funding and focus from what I saw (great for cold weather testing / training)




My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix it unless the root of this problem "we" and "them" is fixed

But it's seems almost impossible to do

What you are observing is advanced "divide and conquer" tactics (the over emphasis of certain groups (*minority groups generally*)) developed and extensively used by western culture, it helps to keep "us" separated in to various "them" groups so we waste time infighting instead of being critical of the real / obvious control structures.


It is heavily tilted to a "victim mentality" which causes emotional responses when challenged; I do believe this tactic is no longer as effective as it used to be (because of the internet IMO) and people are more and more starting to see through these divisive concepts and labels.


I is an interesting discussion with numerous valid points, but what would anyone do about it? Hand it over to the UN requesting some sort of law? I wouldn't want to go there.

Somethings can only be undone by the same manor they were originally done.

This is a cultural issue, a subtle victimhood mixed with divisiveness that has been allowed to continue through a lack of cultural over sight and leadership (something basically non-existent in organic form in all of western culture).

a law would only exacerbate the situation (see "hate speech" or NAACP quotas etc..).