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Mike
11th November 2020, 01:04
Since the election, I've been so inside my own head, and I've been telling myself the same things over and over again; when I get like this, about anything, I try to stop myself and review again exactly why I'm thinking the things I'm thinking and believing the things I'm believing. Wait, why did you vote for Trump again? Are you sure you're right about x,y, and z? Do you really feel as strongly about x as you're letting on, or are you just being stubborn? And so forth...

Basically I just revisit my most fervently held beliefs and attempt to challenge them.

As a result, I've gotten curious as to why people have voted for Biden. Like, very curious! Because I've been so certain I was correct in my decision to vote Trump, I've never really given much thought as to why someone might vote Biden; I've only thought of reasons to vote against him.

This is just a thread for questions and answers, not debate. And not judgement or nastiness. If it gets testy, even for a moment, I will request it be shut down immediately.

I'm asking in good faith, not so I can attempt to win some intellectual or political arguments. I'm genuinely curious as to why people voted Biden. Thanks in advance.

Gracy
11th November 2020, 01:19
Well Mike I'll lead this off with that I don't vote any more, not for some time now, there's no politicians viable on the national scene that I want to touch with the proverbial 10' pole. I can however offer up examples of two people quite close to me, both near and dear to my heart, and both polar opposites:

Example #1 bleeds Kentucky Red, and would likely claim self defense even if they saw raw video feed of Trump really doing the ole gunning someone down in cold blood on 5th Avenue thing.

Example #2 is a die hard, life long democrat. They absolutely worship the democratic party, and faithfully vote blue no matter who. Especially this time as they are part of the Rachel Maddow type resistance crowd.

And I have to tiptoe around both these days.

Mike
11th November 2020, 01:25
Thanks Gracy:flower:

So this seems to illustrate emotional and intellectual entrenchment. Sound about right to you?

Like perhaps they made up their mind long ago on it, and are invested on so many levels that the idea of revisiting their beliefs is more or less zero?

I wonder how much of the population operate similarly?

No judgement from me. Im certainly guilty of this as well

vizon
11th November 2020, 01:32
Since the election, I've been so inside my own head, and I've been telling myself the same things over and over again; when I get like this, about anything, I try to stop myself and review again exactly why I'm thinking the things I'm thinking and believing the things I'm believing. Wait, why did you vote for Trump again? Are you sure you're right about x,y, and z? Do you really feel as strongly about x as you're letting on, or are you just being stubborn? And so forth...

Basically I just revisit my most fervently held beliefs and attempt to challenge them.

As a result, I've gotten curious as to why people have voted for Biden. Like, very curious! Because I've been so certain I was correct in my decision to vote Trump, I've never really given much thought as to why someone might vote Biden; I've only thought of reasons to vote against him.

This is just a thread for questions and answers, not debate. And not judgement or nastiness. If it gets testy, even for a moment, I will request it be shut down immediately.

I'm asking in good faith, not so I can attempt to win some intellectual or political arguments. I'm genuinely curious as to why people voted Biden. Thanks in advance.I do not associate with a party, if anyone had to define me I suppose I am a libertarian? I hate labels, even that one. However, my wife's parents and sister are all die hard democrats. They always vote blue no matter what. My wife's mother immigrated from Brazil when she was 19, her father is from the United States. They're in their late 60s now. I say this as kindly as possible.. but they are not at all very open minded people to accept alternative thinking, data, etc. I know that her father voted for Biden because he feels Biden is an old school democrat that knows how to get along well with republicans. He also feels like Biden will do a better job with the virus situation. Her mother is all about illegal immigration being ok, etc. Identity politics, hook line and sinker. So, I don't talk to them about my truest thinking as it just upsets them. But what they believe is very frustrating to me. It's a source of a lot of despair since they're the only family I have where I live with my wife and kids. My blood family is all up north. It's sad to me, honestly. I feel crazy and question my own sanity very often. But I know what I feel to be true is at least somewhat closer to the truth than their thinking.

People just feel "more comfortable" under Biden. They'd rather be coddled to sleep and then slipped into the water before it slowly rises to a boil.

Mike
11th November 2020, 01:37
thanks for that Vizon.

people just feel more comfortable under Biden..

this is a pretty ubiquitous statement, and i'm glad you wrote it.

because, in the past, when ive found myself in debates with biden supporters, they never seemed that interested in the links i might provide, or the statistics, or whatever.

i'm not suggesting they're irrational people! it just seems to me that their decision, in general, is more intuitive and emotionally oriented. and fair enough, that has its merits.

vizon
11th November 2020, 01:40
Oh, absolutely. I believe the left / right dichotomy in politics is a direct reflection of the brain itself. Left brain being more logical (conservatism) and right brain being more emotional / intuitive (liberalism).

Bluegreen
11th November 2020, 01:44
As Jenny Jones used to say, there are haters and then there are haters. My impression from members' posts is there are Trump haters, Trump supporters, Biden haters, but no Biden supporters. I have come across well-informed and articulate members who have made convincing cases to hate Trump, support Trump, and hate Biden.

Did I miss someone making a convincing case to support Biden?

vizon
11th November 2020, 01:45
The question is....

is there a better choice at this point???

Chaos is inevitable on either road. Which chaos do we choose?

Mike
11th November 2020, 01:48
Did I miss someone making a convincing case to support Biden?

LOL, and well said. This is partially why I've started the thread:) I don't think I've seen anyone attempt to make a case for him

Mike
11th November 2020, 01:54
The question is....

is there a better choice at this point???

Chaos is inevitable on either road. Which chaos do we choose?



The world is ruled by chaos and order, and the balance struck between the two. Ideally we should be right on that border, maybe trending slightly towards chaos.

Too much order is tyrannical, and too little is chaos. The candidates, maybe subconsciously, represent one or the other to the voters, or some nuanced version thereof. And maybe the voters just can't quite articulate that when pressed over who they favor..

The vibe I get off quite a few Biden supporters is that they don't quite know why they voted for Biden except that he might abate what they view as the chaos caused by Trump...that the world has left them existentially off balance and they hope Biden might remedy that

vizon
11th November 2020, 02:02
The question is....

is there a better choice at this point???

Chaos is inevitable on either road. Which chaos do we choose?



The world is ruled by chaos and order, and the balance struck between the two. Ideally we should be right on that border, maybe trending slightly towards chaos.

Too much order is tyrannical, and too little is chaos. The candidates, maybe subconsciously, represent one or the other to the voters, or some nuanced version thereof. And maybe the voters just can't quite articulate that when pressed over who they favor..

The vibe I get off quite a few Biden supporters is that they don't quite know why they voted for Biden except that he might abate what they view is the chaos caused by Trump...that the world has left them existentially off balance and they hope Biden might remedy thatMy father grew up in the neighborhood adjacent to Donald Trump's. My father was born in 1944, Trump in 1946. Almost the same exact age. I've always felt that their sense of humor is very much the same, very much old school New York. Along with all my other New York relatives on my father's side. So, I'm probably a bit more generous in my critiques of him since much of the criticism he receives is rooted in a lack of understanding of him as a person.

I miss my father deeply. Especially his sense of humor, and maybe this makes me biased.

I'm very worried about what could happen. I prefer the devil I know as opposed to the devil I don't know. And I'm not even sure the devil I know is a devil at all? Time will tell.

ErtheVessel
11th November 2020, 02:14
Good question, Mike.

A good friend who is a strong Biden supporter says these things (I just listen and nod):


"Biden is more dignified and presidential.

Biden will calm the country down so that there is less racial strife and overall divisiveness.

Biden will crack down on the Covid thing and make sure it stops spreading and get the economy back on track.

Biden has a better chance at negotiating peace with other countries - he is more level-headed and reasonable. Other countries have more respect for him."


No possibility of approaching this otherwise reasonable person with an even slightly differing view.

Just reporting what I hear. :)

vizon
11th November 2020, 02:25
Good question, Mike.

A good friend who is a strong Biden supporter says these things (I just listen and nod):


"Biden is more dignified and presidential.

Biden will calm the country down so that there is less racial strife and overall divisiveness.

Biden will crack down on the Covid thing and make sure it stops spreading and get the economy back on track.

Biden has a better chance at negotiating peace with other countries - he is more level-headed and reasonable. Other countries have more respect for him."


No possibility of approaching this otherwise reasonable person with an even slightly differing view.

Just reporting what I hear. :)Yes, this is exactly what I'm seeing. Not much more than this, however. I've not heard one person mention to me a policy change that they admire about him pitching.

He seems to be quite compromised at the moment, however, from what I can tell. Haha, to say the least!

Then once he retires after 2 months, Kamala will be the deeply beloved first female president, distracting the masses from her truly terrible ways. We would absolutely have 8 years of that, possibly with Clinton as VP? Who knows. I would hope not.

Mike
11th November 2020, 02:45
Good question, Mike.

A good friend who is a strong Biden supporter says these things (I just listen and nod):


"Biden is more dignified and presidential.

Biden will calm the country down so that there is less racial strife and overall divisiveness.

Biden will crack down on the Covid thing and make sure it stops spreading and get the economy back on track.

Biden has a better chance at negotiating peace with other countries - he is more level-headed and reasonable. Other countries have more respect for him."


No possibility of approaching this otherwise reasonable person with an even slightly differing view.

Just reporting what I hear. :)Yes, this is exactly what I'm seeing. Not much more than this, however. I've not heard one person mention to me a policy change that they admire about him pitching.

He seems to be quite compromised at the moment, however, from what I can tell. Haha, to say the least!

Then once he retires after 2 months, Kamala will be the deeply beloved first female president, distracting the masses from her truly terrible ways. We would absolutely have 8 years of that, possibly with Clinton as VP? Who knows. I would hope not.


I share your deep concern about Harris(:HELP!:), but I want to be careful to make this kind of a judgement free zone. thanks:handshake: If we can, I'd like to refrain from any kind of criticisms or debates or whatnot. Lots of threads for that. Here, I would really just like to know why Biden voters voted the way they did.

Will anyone step up?:wink:

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Good question, Mike.

A good friend who is a strong Biden supporter says these things (I just listen and nod):


"Biden is more dignified and presidential.

Biden will calm the country down so that there is less racial strife and overall divisiveness.

Biden will crack down on the Covid thing and make sure it stops spreading and get the economy back on track.

Biden has a better chance at negotiating peace with other countries - he is more level-headed and reasonable. Other countries have more respect for him."


No possibility of approaching this otherwise reasonable person with an even slightly differing view.

Just reporting what I hear. :)



thanks Erthevessel:thumbsup:

is your friend named Joe Biden?:bigsmile:

vizon
11th November 2020, 03:11
I share your deep concern about Harris(:HELP!:), but I want to be careful to make this kind of a judgement free zone. thanks:handshake: If we can, I'd like to refrain from any kind of criticisms or debates or whatnot. Lots of threads for that. Here, I would really just like to know why Biden voters voted the way they did.For sure, but Harris is Biden's running mate. Just as important, if not more important, than Biden himself.

Maknocktomb
11th November 2020, 03:24
My thoughts are we have been manipulated by the puppet masters, we always have been and for a long time; well before any of us were born and will continue long after we are gone. I like to think I cannot be hypnotized or manipulated, as my ego says I am "aware and awake" but I find myself having it happen to me daily. T.V. commercials showing food gets to me all the time. All I can do is watch the show and prepare my family for a different world than what I grew up in and work on myself to be a better person. I believe the people who voted for Biden are searching for the old memories. But they have been manipulated , no different than the people who voted for Trump. As George Carlin once stated and I paraphrase "it is an illusion of choice on who we get to vote for"

Ami
11th November 2020, 03:54
I am curious too, Mike. I am trying to understand the choice for Biden. I am an "independent" that voted Trump because of some policies, like the vetoing of TPP.

A close family member voted for Biden because she hates Trump. That is her stated reason.

In a phone call in March she was trying to convince me that anyone who voted for Trump 2016 should be banned from voting...she was quite serious. Quote: "These people are - let's face it - not smart. They have lower IQ's than Democrats"

I asked: "What Trump policies don't you like & how would you change them?" She responded: "I don't know about that, but I hate the way he talks about toilets"

In August I asked her why she is voting for Biden. Her response: "Is Biden a good choice? No. But I will vote for anyone who isn't Trump, I hate him! I am voting against Trump because I believe in human rights, caring for people in need, equality for all people & standing up for what's right"

I responded: "Republicans want that too. That's great - we all want the same thing"

Silence..........she then ended the phone call. She didn't speak to me for 2 months after that conversation. We next spoke when I called her for her birthday. We avoided discussing politics, thank God. I know we want the best for each other but our relationship is barely there now.

I have repeatedly said to my husband there is some kind of mind control at work on her. This person avoided politics in the past - no interest at all. This person isn't childish, hotheaded, bigoted or stupid. She is a compassionate & lovely human UNTIL you say the word "Trump". I am left wondering what the hell is happening? Note, I do not necessarily think that this is true for someone else, just my family member.

AutumnW
11th November 2020, 04:00
Some people figure Biden is least worst, I guess. But I don't think anybody is wild about the guy. He represents some big time ugly on the dem side.

Mike
11th November 2020, 06:08
My thoughts are we have been manipulated by the puppet masters, we always have been and for a long time; well before any of us were born and will continue long after we are gone. I like to think I cannot be hypnotized or manipulated, as my ego says I am "aware and awake" but I find myself having it happen to me daily. T.V. commercials showing food gets to me all the time. All I can do is watch the show and prepare my family for a different world than what I grew up in and work on myself to be a better person. I believe the people who voted for Biden are searching for the old memories. But they have been manipulated , no different than the people who voted for Trump. As George Carlin once stated and I paraphrase "it is an illusion of choice on who we get to vote for"


We are all manipulated in ways, some of which we understand and some which we cannot even begin to comprehend. I'm conflicted, because part of this manipulation is the deliberate divisiveness being created by this election - it feels, as another poster said, like some kind of mind control. I've seen smart people make very little sense at all, and not only that, embrace their nonsensicality; I've seen overt fascists call themselves antifascists, and watched as the smart people agreed with them; I've seen harmless statements get conflated with Nazism, and incendiary comments make little or no mark at all. Everything seems backwards and upside down to me, and I have very clear ideas on all the issues on the table. But participating, even by supporting causes that I feel are right and just, seems to be playing into the hands of those who wish to sew this deliberate divisiveness. A catch 22.

Carlin was right of course. What kind of choice for leader of the free world only involves 2 candidates? It's a type of insanity that only seems normal because we're accustomed to it. More candidates would dilute the divisiveness, and ease the intense polarity caused by guy 1 vs guy 2. Plus it would increase the probability that we'd be voting for someone, and not merely against someone else.

Mike
11th November 2020, 06:21
Some people figure Biden is least worst, I guess. But I don't think anybody is wild about the guy. He represents some big time ugly on the dem side.

I think you're right. The average American is, I think, voting on the candidates personalities, and nothing more. The ones I have spoken to know little to nothing about the candidates' policies. They're fickle idiots who get caught up in some minor irrelevancy, like what candidate one said about candidate two's wife or kid. Or they might mention one or two issues and parrot all the mainstream talking points relating to it. They're like mindless automatons pretending to care about this or that. I have very little faith in my countrymen at the moment:)

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I am curious too, Mike. I am trying to understand the choice for Biden. I am an "independent" that voted Trump because of some policies, like the vetoing of TPP.

A close family member voted for Biden because she hates Trump. That is her stated reason.

In a phone call in March she was trying to convince me that anyone who voted for Trump 2016 should be banned from voting...she was quite serious. Quote: "These people are - let's face it - not smart. They have lower IQ's than Democrats"

I asked: "What Trump policies don't you like & how would you change them?" She responded: "I don't know about that, but I hate the way he talks about toilets"

In August I asked her why she is voting for Biden. Her response: "Is Biden a good choice? No. But I will vote for anyone who isn't Trump, I hate him! I am voting against Trump because I believe in human rights, caring for people in need, equality for all people & standing up for what's right"

I responded: "Republicans want that too. That's great - we all want the same thing"

Silence..........she then ended the phone call. She didn't speak to me for 2 months after that conversation. We next spoke when I called her for her birthday. We avoided discussing politics, thank God. I know we want the best for each other but our relationship is barely there now.

I have repeatedly said to my husband there is some kind of mind control at work on her. This person avoided politics in the past - no interest at all. This person isn't childish, hotheaded, bigoted or stupid. She is a compassionate & lovely human UNTIL you say the word "Trump". I am left wondering what the hell is happening? Note, I do not necessarily think that this is true for someone else, just my family member.


haha! I've had this conversation a few times myself!

"I hate the way he talks about toilets." wtf??:bigsmile: that's a new one.

onawah
11th November 2020, 06:37
I voted Republican for the first time in my life, for Trump, though still not a fan for many reasons.
I couldn't believe the Democratic party couldn't come up with a candidate better than HRC after losing the last election.
But listening to Dark Journalist's show tonight with guest Dr. Joseph Farrell, about Trump and this election, I felt validated for stooping to choosing the lesser of two evils again (rather than not voting at all), and I've begun to feel more lately that perhaps he is more than that.
I highly recommend DJ's show to those who are having trouble adjusting to this new, unfamiliar Twilight Zone reality.
You will probably learn something of value if you can stay the course ( it's 3 hours long).
Though Trump is really going to have to man up if he wins again this time, if things are going to improve....I'm praying for him.

greybeard
11th November 2020, 11:00
Its not about Trump -- its what is behind him -- the team -- and that extends beyond the obvious.
For me it comes down to general reset.
If Biden wins as far as I can tell it will head in the direction of The New World Order reset.
However is the Repuplican part emerges as winner than we may have quite a different situation with a totally new banking system. QFS (Quantum Financial System)
This would be backed by gold.
As I understand it (limited understanding) Money laundering would not be possible -- every ounce of gold having an identity.
With this banking system you personally own and control your finance. It can not be touched by anything else.
There is a lot more to this than I can say here. I just dont have the expertise to do it justice.
http://www.mindbodyheartandsoul.org/video/what-is-the-quantum-financial-system-short-documentary/

Impressive video on swift head quarters

https://www.switch.com/las-vegas/
Chris

Lunesoleil
11th November 2020, 11:26
My feeling the first time I saw Biden on a TV screen, I didn't know anything about this man, my judgment was negative and I'm not sure why without knowing him I developed a form of rejection.
Then I listened to a report on Biden about these trials in his personal life and these repeated blunders. I haven't really managed to really talk about him on my blog.
My feeling today, I tell myself that if he's a loser, it's because Biden can't become president, it's not possible or it would be the surprise gift, a sort of final reward. When you win something in life, you have won a victory and have been officially named the winner, but this is not the case, for the moment.


I am usually suspicious of my feeling, but here it turned out for Biden's hypothetical victory associated with many messes and there I told myself that my feeling was not neutral and that there was a real origin.
We are in a world filled with lies and where the light must overcome the darkness ...

WhiteFeather
11th November 2020, 14:19
i'm a registered Democrat, but i voted Trump. Biden and Kamala just gave me the plain ole willies, along with Chuck the Shmuck and that Parasite Pelosi, to name a few.

Mark (Star Mariner)
11th November 2020, 15:49
I think you're right. The average American is, I think, voting on the candidates personalities, and nothing more.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing though.

Another word for politics is ideology, which is also another word for dogma. In almost every sphere of human actively dogma has, for millennia, wreaked havoc. Personally, I've always eschewed the traps of dogma – like the plague. It's why I've had very little to do with politics over the years. I mean seriously, what real-world difference does voting right or left actually make? Not very much difference when both wings are owned/controlled by the same damn bird.

Because policies make little to no difference it comes more down to character for me. For that, you have to be a good judge of character, and context. But first you have to learn to see through the tricks and mirages and shadow-craft of controlled perception management - in other words mind control that has the population in its grip.

In recent years I've done my best to interrogate political personalities to inform my opinion. That began with Obama. In US politics, I very much wanted Obama to win in 2008. I honestly believed at the time he was the long awaited 'chosen one' let's say, a gift for humanity that would upset the world order and bring much needed hope. Little did we know at the time he was just another tool, another puppet of the globalist machine. I fell into the mind control trap. I got played - we all did. Lesson learned.

And what was that lesson? Obama was the polished statesman, the consummate professional, and was/still is an excellent, most powerful speaker. The lesson therefore is, that the more genuine (appropriate) a candidate seems, the less genuine they're likely to be.

It's more likely that perception management is in play.

But who are these "politicians" really? I wrote somewhere something along these lines. It was a list of qualifications/red flags for holding high office:

Corruptibility
Has a lengthy political career, but a dodgy background, with buried scandals, questionable associations, and potential criminal activity.

Bribability
Has a penchant for sexual impropriety, such as adultery, affiliations with prostitutes, male or female, and possibly the abuse of children.

Psychopathy
Are living, walking, talking egos on massive power-trips. Arrogance guarantees ambition at the expense of morals.

Dishonesty
Trained in pathological lying. To be a viable and successful politician one has to be an expert liar from the get go.

Monetary Worth
Nothing says "compromised" more than multiple mansions, and a bank balance far exceeding government salary.

Endorsement
Who supports, pushes, and endorses, is the biggest tell. If it's big corporate interests, then you know. If it's mainstream media, then you know.

If a political candidate has a check in one or more of these categories, they will go far in politics. If they already have gone far in politics, then they've got a check mark in one or more of these categories.

It is almost 100% guaranteed that ALL world leaders have at least one or two of these attributes (with some, maybe all). And it doesn't matter if they're male or female. Men and women are far more alike than different. Human nature is human nature.

The obvious consequence here is that Presidents and PMs don't sit at the top. They are likely nowhere near the top. After all, who is doing the bribing to keep them in check, the paying and the protecting to keep them in power? Politicians are like circus performers - or, possibly professional wrestlers, which Painterdoug talked about in another thread. They pretend to grapple, but 90%+ is a show. The wrestler isn't head of the organization either. He's just a chump in a leotard. He has trainers, coaches, advisors. Above these are management teams, and above those are more management teams.

How far it up the chain it goes is anyone's guess. Boris Johnson in the UK went to the same school as Cameron and Blair et al. He's just a chip off the same monolithic block of granite as all the rest. He jumped through the same hoops, received the same grooming, and thus probably qualifies in one or more of the above categories. You really think he's a sovereign thinker, or doer? You really think he cares? You really think has an original thought in his head -- or is simply executing the exact same globalist agendas as his predecessors?

As for Biden...well, you know the thing.

Karen (Geophyz)
11th November 2020, 16:23
As a libertarian I am very concerned at what is happening in this country. I feel a civil war is upon us. I am generally very conservative but I believe everyone in Washington should be fired and we should start over, with term limits. I also firmly believe if you don't vote you cannot complain.

I heard someone voice an opinion that her children could finally be safe with Biden as president. I wanted to ask why? What changed? But I know better than to open that can of worms. I hate that people are hating other people for the way they voted!

Mike
11th November 2020, 17:52
As a libertarian I am very concerned at what is happening in this country. I feel a civil war is upon us. I am generally very conservative but I believe everyone in Washington should be fired and we should start over, with term limits. I also firmly believe if you don't vote you cannot complain.

I heard someone voice an opinion that her children could finally be safe with Biden as president. I wanted to ask why? What changed? But I know better than to open that can of worms. I hate that people are hating other people for the way they voted!


Couldn't agree more with this Karen.

I voted for the first time in my life during this election for precisely that reason. I didn't mail it in; I waited in the damn slow-moving line and watched as my ballot went thru that bloody machine. It wasn't a heroic gesture of course, I'm not suggesting that, but it was symbolic of my commitment to what I feel is right and just.

If you don't vote you cannot complain. Nailed it there. I would even say that if you're not paying taxes you shouldn't complain either. Or, if you're on government benefits of any kind, you shouldn't complain. But, oddly, those are the people that complain the most, generally:)

Mike
11th November 2020, 18:01
Star Mariner, some excellent stuff there, as usual.

But if there was an election where the policies were relevant, I'd say it was this one.

For most of my life I felt voting was useless. And you can make a pretty compelling argument that it is (and you did just that). And if we are to believe that fraud played a big part in this election, perhaps it is, in this instance. But, voting is what got Trump in in the first place, and I felt a duty to at least try to get him back in again. So I voted. And maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think it was in vain.

I think we need to be careful not to attribute a kind of blanket power and omniscience to the Deep State. They are fallible in some ways. Trump getting elected proved that. To assume they have it all in the bag leaves us powerless. So, even if it is a pointless ritual, I think I will continue to vote in the future. It gives one a little hope, if nothing else.

p.s. "you know the thing":)
p.s.s. Obama fooled me too. Don't feel too bad about it

Orph
11th November 2020, 19:26
If you don't vote you cannot complain. Nailed it there. Sure I can. This is the way I see it, if you vote, regardless of who you voted for, you are part of a system where-by you give up your right to be a sovereign being. You are in effect saying:

"I give up my right to make my own decisions. I give you the power to make decisions for me. I give you the right to run my life and make laws against me".

And yes, that is exactly what you are doing anytime you vote. You can hope that the people you elect will do the right thing and do what truly is best for all the people. But, as we can see from the very sad state of affairs that our country is in, money corrupts. Politicians can and will sell out to the highest bidder. Consider face-masks, lock-downs, and possibly forced vaccinations in the future. That's just one example of how we, the common people, are forced to bow down to the elected elite. (Whether we voted or not). What was that George Carlin quote ?? --- "Voting is just the illusion that you actually have say-so" or something to that effect.

Now, see it from a different perspective. Suppose, .... just suppose that nobody voted. Suppose the entire country stood united and told every last elected person in D.C. that "WE DID NOT VOTE FOR YOU!! WE DIDN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO RULE OVER US. GET OUT"!! Obviously that would never happen and god (and the devil) only knows what the fall-out would be if such a thing happened. But, ... don't pretend that every one of you reading this hasn't at some time or other thought about telling those people in D.C. just that very thing.

But to say that I didn't vote means I can't complain is BS. You can vote 'till you are blue in the face. (Or white and red on your face). The corruption continues.

Mike
11th November 2020, 19:55
If you don't vote you cannot complain. Nailed it there. Sure I can. This is the way I see it, if you vote, regardless of who you voted for, you are part of a system where-by you give up your right to be a sovereign being. You are in effect saying:

"I give up my right to make my own decisions. I give you the power to make decisions for me. I give you the right to run my life and make laws against me".

And yes, that is exactly what you are doing anytime you vote. You can hope that the people you elect will do the right thing and do what truly is best for all the people. But, as we can see from the very sad state of affairs that our country is in, money corrupts. Politicians can and will sell out to the highest bidder. Consider face-masks, lock-downs, and possibly forced vaccinations in the future. That's just one example of how we, the common people, are forced to bow down to the elected elite. (Whether we voted or not). What was that George Carlin quote ?? --- "Voting is just the illusion that you actually have say-so" or something to that effect.

Now, see it from a different perspective. Suppose, .... just suppose that nobody voted. Suppose the entire country stood united and told every last elected person in D.C. that "WE DID NOT VOTE FOR YOU!! WE DIDN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO RULE OVER US. GET OUT"!! Obviously that would never happen and god (and the devil) only knows what the fall-out would be if such a thing happened. But, ... don't pretend that every one of you reading this hasn't at some time or other thought about telling those people in D.C. just that very thing.

But to say that I didn't vote means I can't complain is BS. You can vote 'till you are blue in the face. (Or white and red on your face). The corruption continues.


Well, if you don't vote you can't complain if the other guy wins.:)

And if the other guy wins, you can't complain when he implements policies he announced he would implement that you disagree with.

That's mostly what I meant by that.

Whether voting is an empowering or disempowering process all depends on how you look at it. I bounce back and forth between being cynical and hopeful about it.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Mods, feel free to shut this thread down. Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!:)

Gracy
11th November 2020, 20:58
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!Well that's hardly a surprise. Although hey Mike, I'm no Biden supporter but I play one on tv. I can certainly plead the case if you want. :)

Bill Ryan
11th November 2020, 21:13
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)

42
11th November 2020, 21:21
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)

You can out me if you like.... 10

Mike
11th November 2020, 21:24
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!Well that's hardly a surprise. Although hey Mike, I'm no Biden supporter but I play one on tv. I can certainly plead the case if you want. :)


:bigsmile::bigsmile: sure, I wouldn't mind hearing you plead the case!

I'm all yapped out and am genuinely ready to listen, in earnest. Hard to believe maybe, lol, but true

Mike
11th November 2020, 21:34
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)


Ah, gotcha.

Even if the motivation is simply that they despise Trump, that's cool. I'm just curious. Even if they're closet socialists, also cool. They will get no flak here. It's just that ive had this weird intellectual calm in the midst of the storm, and thought I'd take advantage of it by simply listening and offering no thoughts of my own. At the very least, it would be good discipline :)

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)

You can out me if you like.... 10



Cool, thanks for coming thru.

Would you say you simply despise Trump? Or do you truly support Biden? A mix of both?

42
11th November 2020, 21:36
I don't despise anyone... but if i did it would be DJT. It's a crying shame that 278m US citizens can not offer up a better solution.

Mike
11th November 2020, 21:41
I don't despise anyone... but if i did it would be DJT. It's a crying shame that 278m US citizens can not offer up a better solution.


Fair enough! And thanks.

Do you think Biden is a competent candidate? If so, why?

Gracy
11th November 2020, 21:46
As a life long democrat, it is most obvious to me that voting for the democratic party is always always always, in the best interest of common working people. Joe Biden came from humble, working class roots in Scranton, Pennsylvania, that's a big plus in my book right there.

Leaving room for 42 if he so desires, I'll just skip ahead to the most important reason of all. He's not Trump!

42
11th November 2020, 21:54
As a life long democrat, it is most obvious to me that voting for the democratic party is always always always, in the best interest of common working people. Joe Biden came from humble, working class roots in Scranton, Pennsylvania, that's a big plus in my book right there.

Leaving room for 42 if he so desires, I'll just skip ahead to the most important reason of all. He's not Trump!

Gracy - yes... He's not trump. That's about the best I can say... other than speaking from my international perspective (UK and Canadian) the saddest part of what we witness in the USA today is polarity, hatred and divisiveness. This is not the American dream and it's tearing families apart. Here's a powerfully written article about the pain that US politics has inflicted on one family. There are plenty of other examples. Maybe the US needs more than two choices at vote time... most other countries have that option...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/opinions/trump-tore-my-family-apart-eldredge/index.html

Cipher
11th November 2020, 22:22
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)

You can out me if you like.... 10



You can out me as well.... 11
I've nevered shared an opinion here of Biden, but after the Trump experiment I think it's safe to say that a position as important as the presidency of the United States should never be placed in the hands of someone so deeply damaged.

42
11th November 2020, 22:34
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)

You can out me if you like.... 10



You can out me as well.... 11
I've nevered shared an opinion here of Biden, but after the Trump experiment I think it's safe to say that a position as important as the presidency of the United States should never be placed in the hands of someone so deeply damaged.

Damaged... yes. or some other qualities:

A man who brags about grabbing women by their genitals. A man who calls members of the US military "losers" and "suckers." (How are those bone spurs affecting his golf game?) A morally bankrupt, impeached and now lame duck President. A man who mocks the disabled, who basks in the adoration of a crowd chanting his name as he engages in cruelty. A man who blatantly ignored science and public health experts and said a highly infectious novel coronavirus would go away without a plan to treat it or contain it.

A man whose public utterances reflect that of a racist, a misogynist and a bigot whose administration attacks the rights of the LGBTQ community.

Oh let me count the ways...

Mike
11th November 2020, 23:08
Okay, 42, we'll mark you down as a never Trumper, but not neccesarily an enthusiastic Biden guy. Thanks for playin.

Anyone out there a robust, enthusiastic, number 1 foam finger waving Biden supporter???

Gracy
12th November 2020, 00:38
Anyone out there a robust, enthusiastic, number 1 foam finger waving Biden supporter???

It doesn't have to come down to 100% gung ho for a presidential candidate. Like, you know that feeling when you finally get back to the safety and comfort of you car, all numbed up and fat lipped from some serious dental work? It's not like your car was ever all that great in the first place, but compared with the experience of the root canal or a major tooth pulled, it's like sinking on into that big well worn in easy chair. "Ahhhhhhh..."

Biden is experienced, has a steady hand, and knows how to keep a country on edge at least somewhat calm, and reassured, during a worldwide pandemic and economic crisis.

Joe Biden is the safe bet to see us through these troubled times, help us repair the damage done both at home and abroad, and to begin restoration of our treasured institutions.

Patient
12th November 2020, 00:46
From what I have seen, if someone cares about Biden then they should feel bad that he is still working (or being used). I would expect that a person would be supporting the party rather than Biden himself.

Another sad thing that is seen in many elections is that people are in a position where they are trying to vote for the lesser evil - they are casting a vote against a party rather than for a party.

Here in Canada, so many times I found myself voting for a party that I didn't really care for only because I didn't want the other party to gain power.

Mike
12th November 2020, 01:31
Anyone out there a robust, enthusiastic, number 1 foam finger waving Biden supporter???

It doesn't have to come down to 100% gung ho for a presidential candidate. Like, you know that feeling when you finally get back to the safety and comfort of you car, all numbed up and fat lipped from some serious dental work? It's not like your car was ever all that great in the first place, but compared with the experience of the root canal or a major tooth pulled, it's like sinking on into that big well worn in easy chair. "Ahhhhhhh..."

Biden is experienced, has a steady hand, and knows how to keep a country on edge at least somewhat calm, and reassured, during a worldwide pandemic and economic crisis.

Joe Biden is the safe bet to see us through these troubled times, help us repair the damage done both at home and abroad, and to begin restoration of our treasured institutions.


Yep, I see what ya mean. I get it.

The reason I worded that question the way I did is because most Trump supporters would go to war for him. They're 150% totally dedicated. And they seem to be everywhere I look, both on Avalon and in my everyday life. I'm hard pressed to find anyone who gives half a sh!t about Biden, but this is the guy that won the election??

I'm still shocked Gracy. But I'm doin ok. Really, doin just fine. Not upset or angry at all. Pfft, who has time for that? I'm an oak. I'm taking it all really well, I swear. No, seriously, I'm doing just great. Yep. Great. I've already moved on...I sure have. Haven't lost a single stride over all this. Not one. Never been better, matter of fact. Really!
https://sayingimages.com/wp-content/uploads/anchorman-trapped-in-a-glass-case-of-emotion-memes.jpg

Mark (Star Mariner)
12th November 2020, 14:30
For most of my life I felt voting was useless. And you can make a pretty compelling argument that it is (and you did just that). And if we are to believe that fraud played a big part in this election, perhaps it is, in this instance. But, voting is what got Trump in in the first place, and I felt a duty to at least try to get him back in again. So I voted. And maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think it was in vain.

Not at all in vain my friend. Every (legal) vote counts, this time perhaps more than any other time, at least in recent memory.

There's also another angle to this. Because the US is at the centre of world affairs, is pretty much the fulcrum around which every other nation revolves, the whole world has a stake in choosing its leader. Do not doubt that onlookers worldwide, though they could not cast a ballot, also played a part in this election. I feel we are standing at an historic crossroads, and whether for Trump or Biden, the world has made an appeal to the Universe and God and voted with their hearts and their souls.

So I voted too, and it will not be in vain either.

42
12th November 2020, 14:51
For most of my life I felt voting was useless. And you can make a pretty compelling argument that it is (and you did just that). And if we are to believe that fraud played a big part in this election, perhaps it is, in this instance. But, voting is what got Trump in in the first place, and I felt a duty to at least try to get him back in again. So I voted. And maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think it was in vain.

Not at all in vain my friend. Every (legal) vote counts, this time perhaps more than any other time, at least in recent memory.

There's also another angle to this. Because the US is at the centre of world affairs, is pretty much the fulcrum around which every other nation revolves, the whole world has a stake in choosing its leader. Do not doubt that onlookers worldwide, though they could not cast a ballot, also played a part in this election. I feel we are standing at an historic crossroads, and whether for Trump or Biden, the world has made an appeal to the Universe and God and voted with their hearts and their souls.

So I voted too, and it will not be in vain either.

Star - while i appreciate your perspective, there are 195 countries in the world, and some of them may disagree with your US centric perspective. trump has blatantly focused on US isolationism to the annoyance and exclusion of former allies and relationships. While you may believe MAGA is positive, much of the world feels jilted. My UK friends think that "Make America Great Britain Again" would be a better caption.

TomKat
12th November 2020, 15:07
Then once he retires after 2 months, Kamala will be the deeply beloved first female president, distracting the masses from her truly terrible ways. We would absolutely have 8 years of that, possibly with Clinton as VP? Who knows. I would hope not.

I wonder how the people will like that snide, superior Kamala Harris as president? At least Hillary tried to hide it.

Mike Gorman
12th November 2020, 15:51
Apparently we don't have a single Biden supporter here. Astonishing!We have half a dozen (or maybe 7, or possibly even 8 or 9) — but I won't out them! They've posted recently on various threads. (Most are commendably pleasant, but not every one them has expressed themselves that way.)

You can out me if you like.... 10



You can out me as well.... 11
I've nevered shared an opinion here of Biden, but after the Trump experiment I think it's safe to say that a position as important as the presidency of the United States should never be placed in the hands of someone so deeply damaged.

Damaged... yes. or some other qualities:

A man who brags about grabbing women by their genitals. A man who calls members of the US military "losers" and "suckers." (How are those bone spurs affecting his golf game?) A morally bankrupt, impeached and now lame duck President. A man who mocks the disabled, who basks in the adoration of a crowd chanting his name as he engages in cruelty. A man who blatantly ignored science and public health experts and said a highly infectious novel coronavirus would go away without a plan to treat it or contain it.

A man whose public utterances reflect that of a racist, a misogynist and a bigot whose administration attacks the rights of the LGBTQ community.

Oh let me count the ways...

These are all hearsay, persiflage, outright lies and political propaganda-the bit about 'grabbing them by the pussy' was contextual hyperbole, locker room talk. You mean to tell me you are a saintly man who has never spoken in a ribald manner about women at some point? The level of Po faced hypocrisy coming from some people is just nauseating: all of this has nothing to do with D.J Trump the President who turned the entire economic fortunes of America around, on the ash heap which Obama (Jesus to some) left after 8 years of lies, ineptitude and skullduggery. The moral probity of political leaders has never really been relevant, Churchill, Disraeli, Clinton (Bill), Johnston...whomever have had their peccadillos and character flaws. These are not only ridiculous assertions, they indicate a complete absence of realistic judgement. Biden is a scumbag, a lying, deceptive moral bankrupt who has spent 47 years as a professional politician, achieved precisely nothing but hot air, he has questionable relationships with China, criminal activity in the Ukraine and deep corruption riddling his entire family: don't you dare bring your mainstream media bull**** here and pass yourself off as a critical thinking person.

Mike
12th November 2020, 16:21
Mike G. I love your passion and happen to agree with your take. But any sort of bickering or back n forth has to stop here. I don't want this to be that kind of thread. I am a Trump guy, like you, but in fairness I'm asking why people supported Biden, and some of those reasons involve an extreme dislike of Trump..so if people want to express that here it's perfectly ok. But this isn't a debate thread. Thanks!

safara
12th November 2020, 16:32
...the bit about 'grabbing them by the pussy' was contextual hyperbole, locker room talk. You mean to tell me you are a saintly man who has never spoken in a ribald manner about women at some point?

Err. Yes. I am no saint, but I have never talked about women in such a demeaning, crass and downright rude way. In my opinion, agreement with it is indefensible. The world need more love and acceptance.

To the thead. Not a USA voter, but if I was, in this election, I would have been a Biden supporter simply because he is not Trump.

In my opinion, Left wing and Right wing are both part of the same bird, the same beast, and going one way or the other just steers it a little this way or that, but the ultimate destination is the same.

Elainie
12th November 2020, 16:43
Even a "white hat" Illuminati faction deems Biden/Harris, Soros, Gates as enemies of humanity. That should say something but it's far more complex than I can get into here.

Mike
12th November 2020, 17:04
...the bit about 'grabbing them by the pussy' was contextual hyperbole, locker room talk. You mean to tell me you are a saintly man who has never spoken in a ribald manner about women at some point?

Err. Yes. I am no saint, but I have never talked about women in such a demeaning, crass and downright rude way. In my opinion, agreement with it is indefensible. The world need more love and acceptance.

To the thead. Not a USA voter, but if I was, in this election, I would have been a Biden supporter simply because he is not Trump.

In my opinion, Left wing and Right wing are both part of the same bird, the same beast, and going one way or the other just steers it a little this way or that, but the ultimate destination is the same.



Years ago my older sister flew from Seattle to Washington D.C. to participate in an anti Trump protest of some sort, which was mostly inspired by his " grab 'em by the.." comments about women. When discussing it with me, she said she "owed it to her daughters" to do it.

Noble, on the one hand. But, I couldn't help but think: if the conversations of every male politician in D.C. were made public, and protests were the appropriate reaction to crude comments...all the women on earth - past, present, and future - would be forced to spend the rest of their bloody lives protesting!:)

But, that's partially why my sister dislikes him so much. It began with that comment and she never forgave him for it. I'm sure many female voters felt similarly.

pyrangello
12th November 2020, 17:24
I was talking about Biden supporters the other day, A friend of mine nailed it, Whenever you ask a Biden supporter why they are supporting Biden, tell them first that they cannot reference our current president in any of their explanation and see where they go? After all after 47 years in public office there is surely something of prominence that comes to mind to propel Biden for president? Right?

pyrangello
12th November 2020, 17:35
To follow that up, I watched a chronological timeline of both Biden and Trump from childhood until now that aired last week on public tv. I truly watched it with an open mind as to both men's accomplishments and failures. Trump has had many both ways but always tries to stay positive and is always pushing forward. Biden honestly to my surprise and disappointment had absolutely nothing of accomplishments in his 47 year career in public office to hang his hat on except that he got elected. The only opinion I had after they detailed Biden was that he seems like a compassionate family man. And now at his age to lead this country with definite signs of dementia its very very sad the democratic party would prop up him as their poster boy to run for office--------- unless Kamila was the plan all along.

Sue (Ayt)
12th November 2020, 18:01
Just as an aside, I shudder to think how some of my women acquaintances might feel if their comments about men during our bawdier conversations were broadcast publicly!
:o

Bill Ryan
12th November 2020, 18:07
I only ever had one conversation with a Biden supporter: a very bright, pleasant, and able American woman living in Ecuador who joined me for a 5-hour hike a couple of months ago.

She had done a great deal of social justice work in her career — real SJ work. Not the internet kind. :) She'd lived and worked in refugee camps, traveled in Africa, and worked for a number of charitable organizations. She'd been deeply involved in issues of equality and opportunity, and kudos to her.

So I asked her a lot of questions, and listened well. Her support for Biden was ALL in the cause of what she [broadly] called social justice. Nothing else.

safara
12th November 2020, 19:06
Just as an aside, I shudder to think how some of my women acquaintances might feel if their comments about men during our bawdier conversations were broadcast publicly!
:o

Same issue regardless of which gender is being derogatory about the other, based purely on gender. It is aweful to think that this is condoned. We need to grow past this.

This is not about having a go at "Mary" or "Gerald" because you think they are knobs or you want to grab their bits. This is about lumping the same comments to a whole section of the world based on their sex.


I only ever had one conversation with a Biden supporter: a very bright, pleasant, and able American woman living in Ecuador who joined me for a 5-hour hike a couple of months ago.

She had done a great deal of social justice work in her career — real SJ work. Not the internet kind. :) She'd lived and worked in refugee camps, traveled in Africa, and worked for a number of charitable organizations. She'd been deeply involved in issues of equality and opportunity, and kudos to her.

So I asked her a lot of questions, and listened well. Her support for Biden was ALL in the cause of what she [broadly] called social justice. Nothing else.

Nothing wrong with being in public office and your sole goal is to make society better focussing on social justice. Could be argued that that is what polititians should predominantly be for. Let capitalist business take care of itself. Let elected representatives use the taxes we give them to make our lives socially better. Something like that anyway.

Old Student
12th November 2020, 19:19
After all after 47 years in public office there is surely something of prominence that comes to mind to propel Biden for president? Right?

When "People Power" was ousting Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines, President Reagan rather hamhandedly and mistakenly decided he would back Mr. Marcos rather than the will of the Filipinos. The then chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Joe Biden, responded, "They must be smoking opium in the White House." In it's own way, since the internet at that time was mostly still just at universities and such, the comment "went viral", and all of a sudden people were interviewing Senator Biden, and interviewing people at the White House, and pointing out how out of touch President Reagan seemed to be on foreign policy with an ally hosting one of our most important naval bases in the world.

The White House walked back President Reagan's comments and officially backed, and had the State Department back, calls for Marcos to resign.

I mention that one because the quote was and is still famous. Joe Biden spent decades as possibly the top foreign policy expert in the U.S. Senate. And top or near top much of the time at the Judiciary Committee, including watchdogging torture and indiscriminate wiretapping by the George W. Bush administration from there.

If every single person you've talked to has no idea what Joe Biden has ever done, then they are either 12 years old or have memories like sieves.

safara
12th November 2020, 19:31
He was also part of the efforts that culminated in the transition of Rhodesia to Zimbabwe. My history.

A lot I could say about this whole process, however, being brief - The result was flawed, but this was the fault of the British - kudos to Biden for being part of the change.

45086

TomKat
13th November 2020, 00:08
Kudos to Biden for resisting the urge to plagiarize during this election cycle -- it must have been hard for him!

https://www.businessinsider.com/plagiarism-scandal-joe-biden-first-presidential-run-1988-2019-3?op=1

Having won the election, is Pinnochio a real boy at last?

Gracy
13th November 2020, 00:38
Mod Hat On:

Okay, once again this thread was started to obtain reasons why members may have voted for Biden. Nothing else.

This was never intended to be just another avenue to express displeasure at the election results.

The OP has already expressed concern that perhaps this particular conversation has run it's course. Mike, just say the word.

Gracy
13th November 2020, 01:23
Thread closed by request of original poster.